Tom Holland On How Christianity Has Shaped Western Morality

Author and historian Tom Holland sits down with Dan Snow to talk about the history of Christianity, and how the religion has shaped morality in Western culture to this day.
In this thought provoking interview, Dan quizzes Tom on the birth and rise of Christianity, the debate on religion and science, and whether liberal and socialist values can be divorced from Christian teachings.
If you'd like to learn more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad-free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download the History Hit app please go to the Android or Apple store.
#TomHolland #Christianity #HistoryHit

[@lukefortier1259]

The world needs these kinds of conversations and perspectives. As a person who values intelligence, I am confident this is the best interview Spiderman has ever given.

[@kikiursalone]

Totally agree 👍😂

[@awesomedesign7637]

There it is, this is what I came for. I am now satisfied

[@AdiFingold]

For someone who values intelligence you make really dumb jokes

[@barbaraarndt5293]

The world needs these kinds of conversations and perspectives. which would exclude the DM and Express readers.

[@yugster78]

I often think that the roman slave system and crucifixion created Christianity. Christianity is a result of treating a portion of your society so cruelly and brutal.

[@kenthebean6619]

What a clever, balanced and incredibly intelligent man. His mind and words are so amazingly correlated. His logic and delivery are absolutely gripping. Thank you. Even rattled Dan Snow I reckon.

[@con_boy]

Watch his documentary on channel 4 about Islam

[@con_boy]

It's a hyper banned video: But the Islam analysis he did was next level. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIbLgoaHmLqNkLs

[@kenthebean6619]

@@con_boy thx..will dig it out.

[@gunner23]

That's not hard to do.

[@pallhe]

I think Dan was at pains to be polite and let the man talk.

[@fd6661]

Its good to just let these people talk without being interrupted. You get totally absorbed into what he is saying without being distracted by constant interruption of the interviewer like I’m so many other types of these videos. Well done Dan

[@johnmulvey5121]

Dan Snow couldn't interupt because he couldn't disagree,

[@vlndfee6481]

​@@johnmulvey5121😂

[@MrAnperm]

I have been thinking about the effect of Christianity on Western morality a lot lately, even as a non-Christian.

[@wm5000]

What are you thinking now, one year down the line?

[@Sharkman1963]

Tom Holland's book, which is being discussed here, called "Dominion," is a very eye-opening read. I highly recommend it if you want to go deeper into what he's touching on here.

[@dellwright1407]

@@Sharkman1963 I'd also recommend "The Weirdest People in the World; How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous" Joseph Henrich (2020). Shows the impact Christianity had on Western European culture from 6th Century onwards and argues how this then shaped the modern world. Very well researched and backed up.

[@Sharkman1963]

@@dellwright1407 Thank you for this excellent recommendation.

[@shelleyhender8537]

@@dellwright1407 Sounds like a fascinating book!

[@iteor7320]

Spoiler: He is also in the new Spider-Man movie.

[@67lionsoflisbon37]

😂

[@dannyr3997]

Honestly one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever seen. Stumbled onto it but now I'm gripped. Hope to see more brilliant content like this.

[@isaacbeynon5739]

Should check out the rest of Tom's stuff on the Unbelievable? podcast. V good stuff

[@dannyr3997]

@@isaacbeynon5739 Checked it out literally the next day after posting this. Were also really good discussions.

[@lindgrenland]

@@isaacbeynon5739 What does the podcast cover? topics and what not

[@wendellmatthew651]

No there are no spoilers here. You're safe.

[@HistoryHit]

It's a big topic, but tell us if you agree with Tom here? Are modern Western values inseparable from Christianity?

[@lectorintellegat]

Of course they’re inseparable. We’re all indebted to Christendom, institutionally and historically, and to the Christian modus mentis. We may not *like* that inheritance, we may not *approve* of how our forefathers were confessing Christians, we may not *share* their beliefs - we may even wish our ancestry played out differently. But that our inheritance is Christian, and our western world for the most part the result of Christianity, is undeniable. The question is whether it’s (a) desirable or (b) possible to forge a new inheritance for our descendants. I’m convinced of (b), but (a) is far from obvious.

[@jennybates]

The only thing In find Deplorable is the fact that we did force our faith on others, when we should've learned about their ways, and educated them about our lifestyle, therefore giving them the choice.

[@hantms]

Which Christianity; Christianity ranges from folks who stone gays to death in Africa and oppress the poor and people of color in the alleged Land of the Free, right over to pretty liberal congregations where gay people can be pastors. And it's just as difficult to pin down 'modern Western values': some of those are very well represented in many non-Western cultures.

[@tazldn6463]

@@jennybates That's a very 21st century culturally Christian assumption. Back then of course we believed we were saving their souls and to give them a choice would be an almighty sin that would condemn them to Hell for all eternity. That would have been the cruel thing to do.

[@FOETRAIN]

The values are entirely separable. Try comparing modern values to those held in this country in 1611, when the King James Bible was first published. The values are very different, but the words in the bible are the same, showing that Western morals have evolved, not because of, but despite religion.

[@CMFelos]

I have a degree in history and was fascinated by antiquity however I am a devout Christian trying to explain to my agnostic daughter these very ideas. I have not read his book but I am going to. Ordered 3 copies 😆 Tom you express so eloquently the ideas I was trying to express. Thank you.

[@stevephillips8719]

Anyone who would take issue with Tom's assertions here should read "The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization" by the Indian philosopher Vishal Mangalwadi. He looks at the same questions and assertions from the viewpoint of a native Indian, immersed in Indian culture.

[@johnnyboy6707]

I always thought the great influence of Christianity on the West - especially concerning morals and ethics - was common sense. 1,500 years of Christianity in Europe, more than half of that with the Church being at the center of education starting with the cathedral schools and ending with the university, not to mention the power the church had over the European state, and it being at the center of people’s lives with a church at the center of practically every town…how could it not have an enormous impact?!

[@robgrabowski2572]

I absolutely love these personal interviews with historians, Dan, please keep up the great work! Thank you :)

[@seanmoran2743]

Dan isn’t a historian, he’s a Tv presenter with a history degree For real history I recommend In our time with real academic historians!

[@davidevans3227]

Melvin bragg is good.. definitely how about tom Holland's "the rest is history" podcast been getting right into it this last week (just found it)

[@memyaify]

Such a thought provoking interview. Fascinating! I'm off to get the book.

[@anthonycostello6055]

The principle that Holland is pointing out is Hegel's idea of the assimilation of the historical into the historical process itself. Christianity is indelible to Western culture and, as such, to the world. It can be rejected and denied at particular times and in particular places, but it can never be expunged from culture. Of course, the fact that Christianity is true, is also one reason for that indelibility.

[@bigdave1579]

Excellent!! I so appreciate Tom Holland’s intellectual honesty, his accurate scholarship, and his balanced treatment of these issues. I am also appreciative of Dan’s bringing these issues before the public in such a collegial disposition. Outstanding broadcast and why I am a subscriber of HistoryHit!!!!

[@coinneachreid8971]

Its so true I'm an agnostic, but I can only be an agnostic in a Christian world .

[@GeoPePeTto]

Like others are agnostics in Hindu, Islam and other religions.

[@den8863]

⁠@@GeoPePeTtoEven Islam is of Christian origin. The Hindu nation is even changing as the caste system is slowly being done away with. The Shinto system of the emperor as a god has been abandoned. Most nations are following a western system of law and government which is Christian in nature. Bit by bit the world is adopting a Christian moral framework and not even knowing it. Although now in western Europe and the Americas, there seems to be an increase in Marxist- Leninist philosophy.

[@den8863]

@@GeoPePeTtoAs Tom claims in this interview, even they are in a Christian world, whether they know it or not.

[@GeoPePeTto]

@@den8863 By name maybe. But by influence, it’s Greek and Jewish. Christianity is build on Jewish myths by Greek people influenced by their mythology , culture and philosophy. Jews didn’t have a hell, they took that from the Greeks. And so on you can go however long in the past you can go. But almost nothing in the present still resemble anything Christian.

[@den8863]

@@GeoPePeTto yet the morals are so very different between them. The discarding of unwanted infants, the derision of those who were poor and the celebration of the conquests of war and the proud boasting of the number of enemies killed in those cultures up until the Roman empire right before the rise of Christianity. And since then those morals would be considered horrible.

[@LordEsel88]

Very thought-provocative! Just now I placed an order for 'Dominion' along with several of Tom Hollands other books. I've have previously read 'In The Shadow Of The Sword' which was an excellent book.

[@dm-gq5uj]

You won't regret it. "Dominion" is a great book. And since then, I've gone on to read all of Holland's other histories.

[@FalseNomen]

@@dm-gq5uj Just to jump in here: "Dynasty" was the most fun of his books (I've read maybe half of them). The subject matter is already incredible, and Holland is a great storyteller. While I already knew a fair amount of the Julio-Claudians, I appreciated how in-depth he was about the transformations of the Roman state by Augustus, and he helped place my knowledge of Tiberius and Nero in a very different context.

[@kevfoda]

Dan is a great interviewer! Great interview. I got to see exactly what Tom believes and studied without interruption

[@Hbmd3E]

he is not christian in the sense that he believes in risen Christ. But he seem to love the Truth so he loves Jesus, yea!

[@aidy6000]

What an excellent discussion, he proposes a powerful argument

[@constantius4654]

Thank you Tom Holland. You gave a similar address at the BBC History Week in Chester in 2019 on this subject - one which every intelligent person in the West needs to understand. It ought to be taught in every school and university.

[@thedurlings2942]

Amazing interview! I learned so much.

[@gregorwoods4122]

A breathtaking, hugely impressive account of the forces that shaped the Western mind. Thank you to Dan for allowing Tom space to develop his argument. Fabulous interview.

[@ben.mitchell.theater]

This is an astonishingly intelligent, interesting and intellectually demanding conversation which everyone, whether they're Christian, of another faith or of none, should watch. I've also seen the one with Dan Jones and Dan Snow about the Crusades. These videos and the people in them are streets ahead intellectually and informatively compared with what broadcast TV notably the BBC churns out at huge costs. There are other similar You Tube Channels about geography, physics, various other sciences, politics, philosophy etc with fantastic content. I've actually started to learn things again in my old age.

[@drmatt1984]

What an incredible exposion of the fundamental truth of Christian morality. That all humanity is endowed with fundamental dignity and the powerful have a duty to the weak should be universal values as Christ shows us.

[@differnet]

I love how people assume science was always around. Science as we understand it is a modern idea. If you were to go back before the 1700s, people would have thought they were studying natural philosophy, largely as part of faith - a study of understanding God's creation.

[@jays.8621]

Amazing - more Tom Holland please History Hit!

[@BasedElven]

loved this interview

[@EerieV23]

I love Tom's books. This is amazing

[@MrLeadman12]

I would pay big money to see Tom Holland and Sam Harris have a discussion the impact that Christianity has had on Western culture and morality.

[@shelleygibbons1065]

I am sure this rattled Dan as an ⚛️ atheist . Agnostic. I respect both these historians so much . Love love all history. Is my go to relaxation read any time !! And podcast ! As a Christian I love this conversation. Amen and amen We need more calm beautiful conversations like this

[@mynameisweevil]

Why on earth would it rattle Dan? I think you might be more rattled when you realise neither of them believe in god.

[@Neceros]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 📚 *Tom Holland's Evolution of Thought* - Tom Holland's fascination with ancient empires and identification with strong figures. - Evolution of Holland's perspective from admiration for ancient empires to questioning their moral values. - Introduction to the exploration of the evolution of Western morality shaped by Christianity. 03:37 🌍 *Christianity as a Civilization Matrix* - Holland's realization that he is essentially Christian in his cultural background. - Viewing Christianity not just as a religion but as a civilization, shaping Western society. - The argument that the past 2000 years of Western history, despite changes, are grounded in Christian impulses. 05:48 🔄 *Tracing Christian Influence Through Time* - Excitement about tracing the influence of Christianity from antiquity to the present. - Holland's ability to write about periods beyond antiquity due to the broad scope of the book. - The personal touch in the book, reflecting Holland's journey in understanding his moral, ethical, and cultural roots. 06:31 🔍 *Revolutionary Ideas in Early Christianity* - Paul's radical ideas about the Messiah's humiliating death and its revolutionary impact. - The subversive nature of Paul's teachings challenging established norms. - The emergence of a new doctrine of charity and the transformation of the church in the Roman Empire. 12:10 🌐 *Church's Emancipation in the Early Middle Ages* - The church gaining a sense of dignity independent of emperors in the early Middle Ages. - Augustine's distinction between the City of Man and the City of God. - The separation of the church from the fabric of the state and its survival beyond the fall of the Roman Empire. 17:30 🔄 *Continuous Cycle of Reformation* - The idea of religio as a binding force counterpointing the cyclical nature of the secular world. - The weaponization of religio in the 11th century and the birth of radical nations. - The continuous cycle of reformation and revolution within European history, shaping cultural evolution. 21:33 🌏 *British Construction of Hinduism in India* - The British, encountering the diversity of beliefs in India, constructed the idea of Hinduism as a religion, drawing parallels with their own understanding. - The process involved imposing Christian-like categories such as temples, priests, and scriptures onto Hindu practices. - India later gained independence as a secular state, reflecting a borrowed notion of secularism shaped by British education. 23:15 🕊️ *Christianization in India: Conversion and Secularization* - The process of Christianization in India occurred not only through conversion but also through secularization. - Indian scholars highlight that the notion of the secular and the categorization of Hinduism as a religion are seen as foreign impositions. - The rise of Hindu nationalism in contemporary India can be understood as a reaction against the perceived alien concept of secularism. 24:56 🤔 *Atheism and Humanism: Christian Roots of Human Dignity* - Tom Holland, an atheist, acknowledges the Christian roots of the humanist concept of universal human dignity. - Humanism is viewed as an attempt to abstract this notion from Christian beliefs, providing a secular framework for the inherent dignity of humanity. - The discussion explores how various ideologies, including Marxism and science, attempt to justify moral positions rooted in Christian morality without necessarily embracing Christian belief. 29:22 🔬 *Science as a Construct and Its Relation to Religion* - The concept of science, constructed in the 19th century, is presented as a conceptualization emerging in response to evolving notions of religion. - The construction of science as a counterpart to religion reflects Protestant assumptions and a desire to distinguish it from superstition. - Individuals promoting science often see it as a means to banish superstition, portraying themselves as moral arbiters, rooted in Protestant ideals. 32:09 ⚖️ *Nietzsche's Critique: Loss of Christian Belief and Morality* - Nietzsche's parable of the "death of God" and the subsequent challenges to sustaining Christian morality without belief are discussed. - The critique explores how ideologies like humanism, Marxism, and science attempt to retain Christian morality without the religious foundation. - The historical context post-World War II, with the shock of the Holocaust, led to the preservation of Christian ideals as a response to Nazi atrocities. 35:13 🌐 *Christian Values vs. Post-Christian Challenges* - Post-World War II, the preservation of Christian ideals is seen as a response to Nazi atrocities and the rejection of core Christian teachings. - The discussion questions the sustainability of these Christian values without the theological and cultural framework that gave them birth. - The impact of the rejection of Christian beliefs on the ability to upholdideals like the equality of all humans and the responsibility of the strong toward the weak is examined. Made with HARPA AI

[@adampascoe1084]

Wonderful programme. Reminds me of John Romer’s book and TV series “Testament” which talks about the history of the bible and its affects on Christianity in fantastic detail.

[@kinnish5267]

this is amazing and I learned so much

[@slytherben]

Very few universities in America would tolerate this topic. I love learning what other countries have to say about, anything and everything

[@elliottdubose5074]

Really? I took the history of Christianity at San Jose State University in Northern California and we discussed these topics in great detail, argued and wrote papers.

[@FreeFallingAir]

This was throughly enjoyable, really never thought about it much.

[@Britain_and_Rome]

That developed wonderfully 👌👏👏👏

[@jasonvanek]

That was so interesting. I’m going to buy that book.

[@kazstrankowski8721]

Love this discourse. Great amount of self awareness

[@1969cmp]

A healthy conversation. Cheers.... ex-atheist.

[@figarooobarberofseville8623]

Hallelujah

[@Hbmd3E]

Ive heard some atheists saying " you were never real atheist" :) same as with some muslim and christian saying. shows the religious fervor .

[@adamdudley8736]

you aren't an atheist then. A real atheist isn't even an atheist. real atheists are agnostic but value science

[@perperson199]

Splendid! Really very interesting that Tom Holland

[@shelleyhender8537]

It was interesting to hear Tom Holland present this aspect of our history in western civilization. I have listened to various philosophers and scholars who agree with Tom…including well known psychologist Jordan Peterson. I find it interesting that Neuroscience is exploring this avenue in an attempt to unravel the mystery of transcendence. It will be fascinating to witness scholarship tackle this subject in the coming years. Thank you for another fascinating and insightful episode. Cheers!🇨🇦

[@rbb9753]

I don’t always agree with Tom Holland, but I’m always willing to listen to what he has to say.

[@seanmoran2743]

Why is it a crazy book or subject That train of thought opens up more questions than the Dan might not like. It certainly gives an insight into he’s opinion and thoughts.

[@Kefuddle]

I read Dominion as soon as I heard about it. Along with The Black Swan, it was one of the most fascinating and mind re-ordering books I can recall. I think maybe Plato's Dialogues is in the mix too.

[@karlj1564]

On the one hand Tom Holland radically changed my world view, I became a Christian and no longer regarded Christians as flat-earthers. On the other hand my world view was so deeply shaped by Christianity all along, I just chose to reject it or couldn't see it.

[@julieodonnell8433]

I could listen to Tom Holland all day..

[@UBRLND-X]

incredibly interesting conversation and representation of both how Christianity has shaped the modern world but also meat of what his book is tackling. Thoroughly engrossing for religious and Atheist alike.

[@lucasm.1391]

I'm reading Tom Holland's book and I confess that even though these ideas are present in the text, the attachment to the details of the historiography takes up a lot of space, which could be better discussed as a macro vision. It is clear that the book goes far beyond just a thesis and it seems that it proposes to be the object of studies on the history of Christianity. But, what I mean is that I'm 70% through the book and those great ideas brilliantly dealt with in the video aren't as evident as they seem, even though you can get to them while reading. About the interview, Tom Holland really has a talent for rhetoric and oratory, defending his main thesis very well: even if we don't want to, we are Christians in philosophical terms. I confess that I felt a little lack of correlation in some passages of the interview, mainly the association between "trying to deny Christian values" and what came later, such as "Nazism and fascism". It seems that it was a way found by the author to "tie" his thesis, even because totalitarian regimes were laden with Christian symbols and ideas, despite their way of interpreting them.

[@Kookaburger]

wish this conversation was longer

[@brianwatts9896]

You’ll love Vishal Mangalwadi’s “The Book That Made Your World” which explains the Bible’s impact on India ( and the world) told from his eastern POV. absolutely riveting

[@thomas316]

As an atheist I came to the same conclusion, humanism would be without foundation in other cultural contexts. You cannot understand Western society without understanding Christianity.

[@dellwright1407]

agree 100%

[@woo_doggy]

incredible thank you

[@mattbrabo1818]

I gotta get this guy's books

[@jbri1]

Turn up the volume!

[@szczurek2725]

That started very intrestingly, but then it started sounding like a sermon. The guest seems to believe that if a belief is similar to Christian beliefs then it must stem from them. i was hoping Dan would dig into it, because the way it went the interview basically concluded that we can't have morality and inherent human dignity without Christianity, without giving or accepting a single argument to the contrary.

[@michaelhenault1444]

Very insightful for me. Makes complete sense.

[@prescott5328]

Brilliant

[@ElaineDarlingtonBrown]

Anyone know which of Tom's (many) books they're referencing?

[@davidevans3227]

not sure is it Dominion??

[@smsog2236]

Really good interview. Would be good to see tom on the Jordan peterson podcast.

[@jbri1]

That would be very interesting

[@yinoveryang4246]

It's almost certain that at this point, that Tom won't discuss with Jordan Peterson. He must've been invited. Most likely for what he incorrectly perceives as political reasons.

[@alistaircotton7840]

Could listen to Tom all day.. Praise be to God, whose seed has no boundaries

[@carveraugustus3840]

Excellent excellent excellent

[@bakabakabaka9596]

While I’m generally a fan of Holland, I feel he dismisses Dan’s point at 38:40 a bit too quickly. Confucian thought on the State influenced the French Revolution through Montesquieu; T. S. Eliot’s thoughts on the ephemeral and the eternal were combining Christian notions with the Bhagavad Gita; the 1960’s counterculture’s rejection of competitive egoism was explicitly influenced by Buddhist and Taoist ideas of selflessness, etc. I think Holland’s right that the Christian influence gets downplayed because it’s so ubiquitous as to be invisible, but the things it’s getting mixed with at each turn are still pivotal. Great interview either way!

[@richfroiland2337]

Fantastic.

[@connorwallis4930]

Can’t believe the new Spider-Man talks so well on history and faith

[@AmpleWarning]

Where can I get that jacket?

[@ishmaelforester9825]

The earliest sources, according to the 'fathers' and traditional are the gospels, not Paul. Although Luke (a wonderfully beautiful book) is supposed to have been written under his influence as Mark's under Peters. Matthew wrote a book about Jesus for his people which has been later translate to Greeg

[@janice4938]

Mr. Chuckleteth and David Duvetknee in PHANTOM.

[@graemeromans9374]

Tom is a pure soul with an impressive understanding of humanity which informs his ability to give meaning to history. To Christian history,....... which has shaped the world.

[@cloggerh888]

This debate was quite fascinating, and many of the points the author makes are thought-provoking. That said, his assertion that western culture hasn't been stamped by influences from other cultures makes it sounds like "The West" existed in some silo that opened its doors to send out invading armies now and then. Cultures blend and mix where they touch. I'm from the U.S., and one example that came to my mind was the influence that exposure to indigineous governing systems had on the formation of the U.S. government. Catholicism in South America isn't even wholly European; it's a distinctive mix of Catholic teachings and indigenous practices. Many American forms of Christianity are influenced by the cultures of former enslaved populations from Africa. I buy that we're goldfish swimming in a Christian sea, at least in the part of the world I'm from. I don't buy that that sea doesn't have Buddhist, Confucian, Islamic, and many other non-western rivers flowing into it.

[@hansgruber9685]

So it was the Indians?

[@petermccaffrey806]

A good point. I like to look at what appear to be celtic people and manfufactured objects which have been found in the tekkla makan and whosepresence have never been explained. I believe that there has been A LOT more cross fertilization of civilizations than has been discovered. Will Durant and others state that Chiristianity was actually the orientalization of the West, and if you look at Christ's teachings it's hard to believe that they were not taken from Buddhist thought.

[@Nill757]

“…hasn’t been stamped by … other cultures …” Holland makes no such claim. Of course there are many influences. His main point is that the *foundation* of the West is Christianity, which enables everything else. One can add or take many other influences, but take that away and there is no West, but a reversion to the tyrant in Ozymandias, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, where there are no rights of the individual.

[@GeoPePeTto]

@@Nill757 And the writers of the new testament were greatly influenced by Greek philosophy. Nothing lives in a vacuum and they didn’t come up with anything new. The majority of the NT was writer in greek by greek learned people.

[@Nill757]

@@GeoPePeTto “nothing new” Then it must have somehow been the return of Greek philosophy after 600 years that spread throughout the late Roman Empire.

[@pedrojones2066]

Wow, from Spider-man to History Hit. What a man!

[@ishmaelforester9825]

Chesterton has the great story (he didn't write it) about the yachtsman who set sail to found a new England and landed in England (Orthodoxy). What, the traditional religion is relatively true? Because it is. This is the problem for the modern man. Christianity is the branch you are sawing until the moment you realise you are standing on it. I honestly believe Voltaire called for a priest on his deathbed and Nietzsche went mad because they realised it.

[@yinoveryang4246]

The success of the Western World, based as it is firmly on Christian values, speaks for itself. It's evident to everyone. Both in terms of human happiness, and the resulting material wealth that comes through co-operation. Particularly the value of the recognition of the inherent value every individual and the notion of the soul, is essential to this. In contrast, other parts of the world, based on different value systems, haven't experienced such good fortune. It's an important point to bang home.

[@royalbloodedledgend]

For a sec I thought spider man was on the show. Jokes aside, this fascinating idea was what Jordon Peterson was exploring

[@bluemaxwell6932]

Get to know more about history in Spotify with Tom Holland and Dominic ,

[@sr969]

Im not a christian. But sometimes it amazed me how the atheist failed to believe that christianity heavily influenced today morality. Let the atheist spread their own "morality" then humanity will be in chaos in a few decades.

[@GeoPePeTto]

Christians had the power in Europe for a while. It wasn’t great times for the people.

[@mugluvin3300]

@@GeoPePeTtoThey got us to this point and life was better from a modern western moral perspective in Christian Europe than it was anywhere else in the world in the late medieval and Renaissance period. Sure you could say places in East Asia, the Muslim world, and the Inca empire later down the line had better standards of living in some places but Christian Europe gave us the truth seeking mode of thought that birthed modern science with some help of many Greek and Arab texts, as well as ideas that lessening human suffering should be perused by the whole civilisation. Christian countries have done terrible things but have also done exceptional things than no other civilisations have done. I think the west is bored of it and it’s trendy to disparage it but if it didn’t come about we could easily be living in a society in the west where gladiatorial games still happen, where a man’s family is seen as his property, where slavery being wrong is seen as a minority opinion. Honestly I have studied European history from the classical era to the 20th century, I have studied many of the world’s great empires. Without Christianity we would be in a very different moral framework. When you look back into history and say “look how much worse things where!” You should be asking the question “why are they better today?”

[@GeoPePeTto]

@@mugluvin3300 I would say that the Greek world had more impact, seeing as even early Christianity borrowed heavily from them. But even if it wasn’t so, if Christianity would still rule today in Europe, I’m 100% sure that it would be worse than it is now.

[@andihia2890]

@@GeoPePeTto I`m curious and almost convince me, which ancient Greek value that you think relevan for today and everywhere in this earth.

[@GeoPePeTto]

@@andihia2890 Democracy, philosophy, trial by a jury of your peers and more. Through philosophy they were the first people in the western world to try to explain the whole cosmos in a rational way, and not only through mysticism and religion. How people should act, how to arrive at knowledge, and what the nature of morality and mind is. All started in the 6th century bce. Ofc they were not atheists and still believed in gods and supernatural events. It was to common in those days. But some tried to divorce philosophy from religion, but some theories still have some mumbo jumbo in them. And as Christianity was mainly spreading in Greece, where the testaments were written, it was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and mythology. The idea of hell if from them, the omniscience and omnipresent came from platonic and Aristotelian theology. Greek has influenced the Roman world too. And they influenced most of Europe. Their calendars, laws and the justice system.

[@marktaylor6491]

The problem is that there are two questions here. One of ideology, and one of superstition. Clement Attlee said it best when asked his views on Christianity. "I like some of the ideas, not so keen on all the mumbo jumbo". Which just about sums the whole thing up. There is a lot to be said about many of the views that Christianity pioneered. Alas, a lot less to be said about how it sought to justify them.

[@charlesedwards5333]

Brilliant scholar

[@davidevans3227]

i'm eleven and a half minutes in.. what was the question? (he's got a good podcast with Dominic sandbrook, The Rest is History)

[@gregt4202]

A useful perspective. BUT it fails to recognize the organic development of transactional human behavior over 200,000+ years and it's embodiment in proto-judaism and christianity. So, it's worth a view, but not something to be relied upon.

[@GeoPePeTto]

Yeah, such a narrow view. The New Testament was written by Greek learned man that were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. The idea of souls and hell were from the Greek and many more. This guy makes it sound like the New Testament was written in a vacuum. The story is the same from our beginnings, history is written by the victors, and the new kid on the block, the Christians with their new religion of believe this or you go to hell, were the victors. Nothing else nothing more.

[@Volgdewaarheid]

​@GeoPePeTto So how did the first christians became victorious? What did the apostles like Paul gain?

[@Jubilo1]

Where's Douglas Murray and Peter Hitchens when we need them in this conversation ?

[@MrAnperm]

I don't think Holland was speaking as a Christian apologist here. He was merely providing historical context to our way of thought.

[@PentonMitch99]

Ohhh not that Tom holland… lol

[@lindgrenland]

Careful, some stuff almost sounded controversial to our sensitive post-colonial, post-modern ears :O Getting the book for sure

[@sam-z8284]

Umm, how is this thesis ground breaking? Nietzsche and others wrote long ago about Christianity's role in shaping Western morals and thought.

[@timlatham777]

Where's the rest? That was definitely not the end of that conversation.

[@stoneworkmegapup215]

Not only Western Christianity, Islam has also repeatedly experienced waves of revolutionary reformation.

[@rosesffd345]

Ya that's the reason most worst place on this world is Muslim middle East

[@simonel318]

i am curious to hear how mr holland reconciles such atrocities as the colonization of the new world and chattel slavery with the books thesis. is this addressed in the book?

[@zephyr-117sdropzone8]

I'm curious how atheists justify the dozens of millions of deaths their governments have allowed!

[@GeoPePeTto]

He seems to understand morality as in only what little good Christianity brought to western nations. Kinda lame.

[@khar12d8]

Find the podcast The Rest is History which Tom co-hosts and search for the Columbus episodes.

[@brianwatts9896]

Vishal Mangalwadi deals with the good bad and the ugly in his fantastic “The Book That Made Your World”. Must read if you’re seriously invested

[@den8863]

Christianity was the primary influence for the abolishment of slavery for the first time in the world. Read about Frederick Douglass, William Garrison in the U.S. and William Wilberforce, Thomas Clarkson. That all mankind was made in the image and likeness of God which is a solely Christian ideal was the reason for their drive to abolish slavery.

[@braxtonyoung]

Why haven't I seen a talk between him and Jordan Peterson???

[@joshuataylor3550]

Because JP is not a legitimate academic

[@comandanteuldo8261]

@@joshuataylor3550 JP got at least one doctoral degree and he is considered an academic.

[@miramichi30]

@@joshuataylor3550 Lol, One of the most cited psychologists in Canada, and a University professor for decades.

[@johncarroll772]

Netanyahus friend

[@83Jonathanlee]

Dan is out of his depth on this chat. A bit more complex that Ww2 military history’s

[@Mish_Da_Mash]

amen

[@johnmccormick8159]

Thomas C. Leonard's book _Illiberal Reformers: Race, Eugenics and American Economics in the Progressive Era_ (2016) describes the concrete steps with which liberal Protestantism transformed itself into civic action and government policy and sought to make science their religion.and ultimately remake the US entirely.

[@carolroy52]

The new David Starkey ❤❤

[@johncarroll772]

Those damn Bl****

[@comfort_hash3334]

Way too quiet. I can hear every second question and none of the answers

[@ningenJMK]

I want to see historian Tom Holland be interviewed by actor Tom Holland. With the latter man in costume as Spidey.

[@survivehistory]

Do you think Spiderman ever considers how Christianity shaped Western morality?

[@universalflamethrower6342]

with great power comes great responsibility

[@daneumurianpiano7822]

This is great, but hasn't Dan heard about the Christian thinkers from Augustine to Francis Collins who read as figurative the parts of the Bible that were intended to be taken figuratively? See the American Scientific Affiliation and the BioLogos Foundation for starters.

[@tylerkessler4021]

Thousands have witnessed His miracles.. it’s up to mankind to make the choice whether to believe. He gave you a free will to decide.

[@daneumurianpiano7822]

Before Confucianism in China, under the Shang Dynasty, there was the worship of Shang Di, whose name may be linguistically related to El Shaddai, one of the biblical names of God. In Korea the name was Hananim, and Hananim had a son. See Don Richardson, _Eternity in Their Hearts_, pp. 62ff.

[@only6517]

JESUS BLESS US AMEN

[@MrIlleism]

This is the cooler of the Tom Hollands

[@MrBlackbeard4]

Spider-man jokes incomiiiiing!

[@chrisdass1969]

Tom is spitting facts. He is obviously a genius. Look at his perfect hands

[@gunner23]

Christianity isn't a drop in a petri dish that makes up what we view as the Western world, it's the petri dish itself.