Too Many People go to University

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__________________________
Filmed at the Royal Geographical Society on 30th January 2007.
Speakers for the motion: Claire Fox, Anatole Kaletsky, Jenna Nicholas
Speakers against the motion: Baroness Onora O'Neill, Mary Ann Sieghart
Chair: Sir Clement Freud

[@usayeed727]

In all honesty, unless you’re genuine about pursuing knowledge or establishing a career in your chosen field, the general population has no business going to university. The fact that it’s a requirement now for prospective employees who aren’t academically inclined to possess a degree is an utter travesty. We now live in a culture where young people not only find it increasingly difficult to find jobs, but we slap on £30k worth of debt on them as a minimum and force an entire generation of people to be miserable in their studies- to the point that the only solace they have is to go out and party rather than rely on their passion in their studies to motivate them. Most young people, if given the choice, would not choose to pursue university. If apprenticeships, vocational studies and training for specific trades were given equal prestige by employers and governments, we’d have much better prospects for growth and development for society- and we would progress more intellectually if university were restricted to the academically inclined. Going to university as of today has been reduced to an utter joke.

[@nomayor1]

Society has "much better prospects for growth and development for society" if John Smith is a trained machinist, rather than a phD in Applied Materials, carrying out research in ways to make aluminium car parts production cheaper, in order to reduce the weight of cars, reduce fuel consumption and increase the range of electric cars, is that correct? Mary Bell much better be a carer changing diapers on people rather than performing cancer research, is that correct?

[@luiscarreiro3222]

the system forces you to pursue university.

[@nomayor1]

@Robo RedneckWhat are you talking about???

[@nomayor1]

@Robo Redneck "Who" do I think? What have you been smoking?

[@nomayor1]

@Robo Redneck It's clear that you both smoke AND drink.

[@svendbosanvovski4241]

You pay, and they give you the piece of paper with a seal on it.

[@normanhill1052]

Too many of the courses are just worthless fluff, filled by people who don't deserve to be there, but for the University it's bums on seats money in the bank.

[@jotealarcon1932]

Internet is the gateway for all the achieved knowledge you could ever want. Differences between people are, now more than ever, due to their natural inclinations and sensibilities. Higher education provides academic degrees, not knowledge.

[@the_9ent]

University should be academically hard but free to everyone

[@tonycatman]

What does 'free' mean ? My guess is that you ignore the fact that someone pays for it other than the person who gets the education. Or perhaps you mean that the person who gets the education shouldn't factor the cost into their decision.

[@the_9ent]

tonycatman The State pays for it as it’s to the benefit of the country to rise up those who are academically gifted regardless of back ground or financial circumstance. Got a problem with that?

[@funbigly]

@@the_9ent "The State" doesn't pay for it numbnut, taxpayers do. You'll have to convince us that raising up the "academically gifted" is a direct benefit to every taxpayer.... which you cannot do if your life depended on it.

[@the_9ent]

Fun Bigly The state is the people which includes Tax payers. Without which you would have no society, no police, no firefighters, roads, schools etc. So you honestly think a country thrives by not investing in its next generation? If so, you are beyond help.

[@funbigly]

@@the_9ent The "State" refers to the civil government of a nation, it has NOTHING to do with taxpayers. "So you honestly think a country thrives by not investing in its next generation?" Are you going full illiterate now?

[@lohphat]

People are encouraged to enroll due to higher education is now a cartel that's motivated by profit. The more students it processes, the more profit it reaps regardless of the quality or need for the subjects studied. How many "communications/social media majors" does the world need?

[@cliffordhatton4444]

Whilst doing some part-time work on a reclamation site I came across a case full of secondary school science exercise books from 1961...they were a joy to read. Beautiful handwriting, excellent diagrams, well-worded and highly professional. ..wish I'd kept them.

[@susanarsoniadou]

I had a professor who once said, " We have a lot of problems and we need intelligent people to solve them." This in and of itself says how important education is. You can get knowledge from experience but something is missing...without theory..

[@saffigrey5887]

Let’s put it this way. In 2012 I ran a subject specific pub quiz for UGs with material first years could answer, now I am running that same quiz for postgrads/PhD students...

[@SandyJayAgingerguy]

Right, but I'm sure the postgrads could have gone into more detail. That's like asking a doctor and a child what the organ that allows us to taste is. The answer is the tongue, but the doctor can you tell you more. You weren't asking for a detailed answer in your pub quiz, so at surface level it appears that postgrads have some how become less well read in the subject in 8 years - but we can guess this is probably not so!

[@MilitantOldLady]

A university degree is a devalued commodity. There is a horrible inflation on graduates.

[@cr4yv3n]

+Teutone That wouldn't be a bad thing in a sane society.

[@bgates275]

+cr4yv3n They should start failing students in like grade 5 if they don't measure up. If they kept strict standards, by the time you get to university, only the very best would be going, and graduates would be much more likely to get jobs. It would produce a much more efficient system. Who cares if you hurt students feeling when they are young. Better to give them a wake up call early and steer them towards the trades, then lead them along for a decade or two.

[@cr4yv3n]

John Holmes So we should have less educated people in order to preserve a dysfunctional system. Got it.

[@MilitantOldLady]

***** He has a point. The native population all go for a higher education. The lower ranks are then empty and nobody there to do work in the service industry or manufacture labor. It's then filled with imigrant workers, who are on average even higher educated but because they're not natives aren't given the same chance. If everyone is racing for the top, there's nobody there to hold the ladder still and it all comes crashing down.

[@cr4yv3n]

Teutone We could automate low skill labor. It is certainly within our ability to do so...

[@burmanhands]

Well done "University" your utterly conditioned elite class was a success story. The point is not to teach us to think for ourselves but how to conform to the prevailing doctrines - they should be called "Singularity."

[@1112viggo]

yeah, in regards to social studies, history, religion, and stuff like that you got a point. But math, chemistry, physics and those kind of subjects are virtually incorruptible, thank god, and those are the areas of university education that has produced the vast majority of success stories in academia that i am aware of.

[@cigh7445]

@@1112viggo Incorruptible no, but other than that single word I agree

[@1112viggo]

@@cigh7445 Well how do you corrupt math, chemistry or physics? You can fake your research data of course but anyone who tries to replicate your experiment or do the equations will be able to expose you as a fraud without doubt. That is pretty unique to those fields.

[@casiandsouza7031]

There is a false belief that spending on education justifies income. Income should be justified by the job done, not by the preparation for the job.

[@shuddupeyaface]

Yes your right wrong there.

[@shuddupeyaface]

Your comment makes no sense at all by the way. Investment in our kids is important.

[@casiandsouza7031]

@@shuddupeyaface sorry,it can't make sense for you. You need to inherit sense from your parents.

[@funbigly]

@@shuddupeyaface Invest in your own kids. Has that ever occured to you, crackhead?

[@CarterWills1]

If a job requires 10 years of preparation but is very easy, it wouldn’t pay much. This would result in no one going for that job which means there would be a massive issue.

[@dragonfist]

“Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.” Terry Pratchet

[@facfortiaetpatere4287]

Hahaha so true !

[@bobsimpson4298]

Interesting to note that only Jenna and Anatole were actually "speakers." All the others were "readers!"

[@JohnSmith-do2op]

Nothing is funnier than an intellectual getting charged £50 to fix the washer in a dripping tap or unblock a sink. Any economist will tell you that if you increase the supply of something it's value goes down. It's getting to the point where someone needs a Phd, before they are considered intellectually superior to the rest of society, and it takes them 1/3 or a life time to do it. Get qualified as a plumber or electrician and you've got a good job for life. The work itself keeps you physically fit.

[@usayeed727]

John Smith I couldn’t agree more.

[@martingrundy5475]

Couldn't agree more. Unless one gets ill or a bit infirm. Of course, this is no real argument against it. Merely something to keep in mind. As is in time becoming older. I tend to advise younger blokes to get a good hands on skilled job if they are up to it. Some are better served trying to get into a more technical feild, that may include college or University. Of course, that is always better under an apprenticeship, where they pay for it. Apprenticeships, and especially real decent, quality apprenticeships are thinner on the ground than they once were. I was kind of a little lucky, I got in just as the apprenticeships were beginning to become fewer and further between. Academia has now become in need of a serious overhaul. There is far too much time, resources and money wasted on essentially useless, meaningless, often baseless horseshit these days. Especially the diversity, media and grievance studies that have proliferated of late. These in reality are becoming a problem and certainly not an asset.

[@staninjapan07]

Regarding your comment on PhD-level qualification, that is now the case here in Japan. It is now the norm to be required to have a PhD to teach English as a second language at a university here. A degree in TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) or linguistics used to be enough and, with the appropriate mentoring on the job should be enough as a start. It is political and financial, though. Universities here with more PhD-qualified lecturers can claim that they are research institutes. The more they have, the more money they can demand from the government in grants, and conversely the fewer they have, the less money they can get for research grants.

[@TheDionysianFields]

Actually, most blue collar jobs break the body down due to excessive stress hormone release and repetitive motion. And they don't tend to be challenging or fulfilling over time. But they still beat a cubicle.

[@tonycatman]

@@TheDionysianFields And more anecdotally, based on a sample of 15,000 plumbers, their knees go somewhere after the age of 40. It isn't a lifetime job. (We recruit ex-plumbers into the merchanting industry, to work on trade counters, sales etc)

[@dsptchr]

The University is not a replacement for family- or community-structures.

[@chandrarama1970]

community has no structure it yoy really look, the whole thing has no foundation.

[@StefanTravis]

... and sponge cake is not a replacement for Uzbekistan. What point are you trying to make?

[@SunnyIlha]

The actual hard practice of intellectual exercise, at all, of any kind (forget about with vigor) has been nearly absent in post- secondary "education". It's a mill. Churning out tuition-had-paid piece of paper holders.

[@jeremyhowes2399]

Going to University doesn't guarantee an education.

[@SlackKeyPaddy]

Going to University doesn't guarantee a job unless your going to work at Starbuck then you'll need at least a B.A. !

[@Falcrist]

Going to university has NEVER guaranteed an education.

[@miaodekat5918]

i think the question of wether stutends have become customers, it really depends are on the geographical location. A lot of countries are still offering states founded free education. I would say education in North American has really became a commodity .

[@istvantoth7431]

I am loving these debates and I am very happy that I found this channel. My country (and many others) should take this as an example. My observation has always been that what the British lack on the social/interpersonal side of life they counterbalance with bloody precise objectivity and hunger for truly constructive debates and thorough investigation of issues. I cannot really relate to Marmite, Vinegar-crisps or the tea-culture but damn sure I can to the above. - an Eastern (we like to say 'central') European energy analyst living in London. ((Btw I know this sounds lame but I agree with both sides. It's indeed a tough question.))

[@andjelatatarovic8309]

For me the questions to ponder would be how do you compliment people's talents and interests, how is knowledge shared, and how do you integrate knowledge? A lot of human cognitive ability can also compliment data storage, but the ability to imagine beyond solutions that exist is key and relies on integrating what is learned in disparate contexts.

[@jozimarm9336]

Half of Americans have never read a newspaper, half have never voted and another is ...... Great point in the whole debate

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

Thanks so much!

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

I can't figure out what the first speaker was trying to say. We live in an emergent economy. Everything is in a state of change, from technology to education. There are people making a good living from youtube (and the internet in general) and stand-up comedy. I think universities absolutely should be open to criticism from the students. When any institution is immune to criticism, you have the perfect environment for dogmatism and fascism. Also, grades don't mean shit when it comes to creative thinking or even intelligence. Many geniuses dropped out of high school or college. There's no connection necessarily between creative success and financial success. Nikola Tesla died in poverty, and yet if you turn on the TV you'll see many millionaires who have contributed nothing to society. It's a schizophrenic world. A College Degree can't guarantee anything other than student loans that could potentially take a lifetime to pay off.

[@javedsumra5918]

Agree! Should been more thumbs-ups!!

[@DuskAndHerEmbrace13]

If a college degree doesn’t mean shit when it comes to creative thinking, why put these kids in huge amount of debt for a degree in how to be a KZbinr? She’s arguing that education has become commodified by institutions that used to be about learning, but are now more like corporations that see educating young people as a marginal sub-product of profit making. And that creates the same mentality in students. Her point on student criticism was that it is now to the degree that students are pressurising the curriculum not to be set by actual experts in the field but set to fit in line of a short-term, consumerist message of ‘how does this immediately help me compete in the graduate job market?’ Do you think that leads to higher standards? But then who can blame the students?

[@Jackthesmilingblack]

Don't read from the transcript, luv. Use cards with topic headings. Number the cards, so if you drop them it's easy to put back in order. Preferably brown, then they would be less noticeable. Giving a presentation should be taught in university.

[@60-second-HACKS]

Many jobs that specify a degree DO NOT require a degree. Lazy employers use it as a simple heuristic to cull weaker prospects. And then, the same employers complain about the low standard of graduate-employability. This is why some leading companies (PwC, et al) are beginning to ignore university fodder and train high school graduates. Compare and contrast: a) A university graduate after 4 years of education by academics, for academics; or b) A bright and motivated high-school graduate with the same four years on-the-job training by professionals who KNOW the real world. University education needs to change. It's early 20th century principles and practices are hideously unsuitable for these times.

[@rumco]

"The right to university", fucking hell.

[@MarekDz60]

In a modern university Friedrich Gauss would not get a proper education and would not become one of the most prominent mathematician, physicist and astronomer of all times. The second and third degree universities are not giving a chance for lower class children to advance socially. They take this tiny chance away from such talented children of lower class parents as Friedrich Gauss was.

[@Stelios.Posantzis]

Listening through this talk as it progresses makes one feel gradually more and more despondent about the state of the the educational system. Higher - and lower - education has lost its way and it's tragic to think that education and educators are supposed to show everyone of us the way. What is described here has been happening in Greece for at least half a century now, culminating finally in the complete deconstruction not only of the educational system itself but also the everyday language and in the end the very fabric or Greek society and culture. Secondary school students graduate unable to even speak their own language adequately - let alone write it - and reading anything other than trash websites or shopping menus is simply seen a complete waste of time. When coming out of university, they're unable to express themselves on pretty much anything bar trivial subjects or perhaps certain aspects of their course - if they're lucky. Most are holding a degree that does not ensure any kind of employability but just puts them on par with everyone else - who also holds an equally irrelevant degree. Yet, employers, who keep complaining consistently over the last 3-4 decades over the shortage of required skills never undertake the responsibility of educating their own employees and when they do it is either for a specialized throw-away skill (with a lifetime of at best ten years) or they do it in a so hap-hazard manner, half the time they train people who don't need the particular training or who simply leave not long after receiving it. We've been hearing over and over about transferrable skills but when students leave university, the last thing on their minds from then on is how to transfer the skills they learnt. No employer appreciates the transferability of the skills picked up at Greek universities, and the public sector especially so, and all seem all too eager to go after the over-specialised candidates when their specialty suits them while all to eager to reject same candidates as too highly specialised when it doesn't: always myopic with their only long term strategy being focusing on the next quarter's balance and finding the quickest solution that fits the bill. It all leads to a massive waste of effort, over-specialisation over a globally ever increasing population which ultimately means reducing each one to a disposable, reproducible "enabler". Isn't that the only logical outcome of a society bent on incessantly consuming and always striving to acquire the next new thing?

[@davepx1]

Not enough people go to university: everyone who doesn't represents a failure of our civilisation - not their failure, ours. If we want to progress as a species and resolve the mounting problems of our own making, we need to educate people to the best of our ability, and keep educating them till they drop.

[@rockytoptom]

I'd say everyone should go to college BUT not everyone should expect to be highly successful BECAUSE they went to college. The more accurate observation would be that the more education, the better, but we really do need more balance in the job market, both in pay and in the availability of manual labor jobs and the gig economy. The quality of education, both pre college and in college, has fallen greatly. THAT is a fact.

[@sn9731]

Wow, this comment section is seriously gold! Thank you for sharing!

[@skinnymcdibbens9698]

such great personalities here :)

[@lizgichora6472]

Knowledge and Wisdom, the epitome of Excellence! Thank you very much.

[@paxdriver]

The baroness seems wildly out of touch. Systemic cost inflation with reduced quality output is not an excuse for branding, campus upgrades, and adding fees to recoup "costs" of forgiven debt. Think about it - you tell students they must go to school if they want to raise a family and live comfortably, then you coddle them through it, nobody benefits. It is entirely a waste of the professors, administrators, students time and tax payers money. It's pretty straightforward economics 101

[@ankurdesval5588]

Sure, it is waste of taxpayers' money to spend it on profession and progression of civilisation but at the same time such a brilliant idea to spend on the Royal family, for Eton and Winchester, for supporting wars that has nothing to do with the UK, et cetera et cetera. And these 'too many people' bloody pay for it.

[@robinusher5707]

She's a philosopher and Cambridge professor and "baroness" - out of touch is her default position.

[@crustyoldfart]

To ask are too many people going to university, is a rhetorical question. The real question is : are there too many universities ? It would seem that there is a confusion in recent years between education and training. Throughout the centuries what constitutes a university has expanded rapidly. Originally there were four faculties only - Law, Medicine, Mathematics and Theology. In other words they were vocational, concerned with training individuals in the basic elements of their chosen field of study.

[@Will_Moffett]

Has there ever been someone who says too many people go to college who haven't sent their children to university (if they had children)?

[@KM_Zitha]

I do agree. The quality of graduates has deteriorated. Some of them can't even construct proper sentences.

[@sedisvacantia8581]

Can too, we can! We no stupider then they is been.

[@johnjones6601]

The way Claire Fox speaks, you'd wonder if she went to University.

[@daraorourke5798]

She was always good at shouting when she was in the RCP.

[@nataliaseweryn]

I Love researching for my subject. I LOOOOVE learning and reading. But my master’s degree in law I’m pursuing is bullshit. It’s such a low level I’m wondering if it’s worth the money. Yes my undergrad degree was ok okish in one of better universities but this this thing I’m doing now is rubbish.

[@mechabits197]

The University of KZbin...Free for Everyone!

[@arvidsky]

Until I read the works of Ha-Joon Chang, I would have voted against the notion. I am not so sure now. He makes a very good argument that we do not live in a post-industrial society and that pulling too many people through the universities have no general benefit for the economy or the workforce. He argues that it is a fallible notion that the West have to solely live of the minds of their people, not production. I do agree that an educated population might be good for society in other ways.

[@MrN0nex]

This came out before I started uni, now that I have my degree I can say I fucking loved it. I was always asked what are you gonna do with that but to me it never occured that I went there to get a job. I went because I wanted to know more and still do and I think giving everyone the opportunity to do this is great for a society. Sure making it mandatory is taking it in the wrong direction but who am I to judge who gets to taste this so let everyone in but kick out the ones that fail the curriculum without stigma they then know that this was not the path for them and they can get a job they like more.

[@theindividualizt]

I'm with Clare Fox. She speaks my mind!

[@AlexthunderGnum]

There is education and there is training. Education is the process of development of a complete person out of an individual. Training is the process of preparing an individual for some work. There is also entertainment. University provides all three. Some people come to university to develop themselves, to get better understanding of the world, themselves and other people. Some people come to get training for a job. There are also those who come for an entertainment, which lectures and activities and reading might be a great source of. The argument of this "motion" is void because it dismissed the difference between these three reasons of why people go to university - personal development, training and entertainment.

[@juggalosispatientzero]

I completed a four-year technical degree in 2020, and having worked since the day I graduated, I can confidently say that I have learned much, much more from 3 years of professional experience than 4 years of undergraduate education. However, if I compare myself with the people I grew up with, I realize that the few of us who went to university are much, much better off financially than those who did not. From my perspective, if I hadn't attended university I wouldn't have the lucrative career I enjoy today, and I'm confident that I would be working a dead-end, low-paying job, and I would be miserable. So, university didn't necessarily teach me everything I needed to know, but it was certainly a stepping stone to better prospects. This only makes sense because I was raised in a working-class household in a small, working-class community where the vast majority, including my whole family, never attended university, so young people like me never had exposure to learned professionals. I think many of those who voted for the motion didn't take into consideration the millions of young people in such a situation, where the only way to the middle class is through having a profession, and in the absence of mentors or role models, the only way to a lucrative profession is through university education.

[@timeWaster76]

What we have is a lot of signs held at the corner ... will blog for food

[@donaldreed2351]

I've been amazed at the number of people I know who attend trade schools and still feel a sense of inferiority about not attending a university. I tell them that they're on their way to getting a good, high paying job, without much debt, and that they are far more important to the nation as people who will know how to fix things, rather than those who can brandish a university degree, but who can't fix anything.

[@eggizgud]

Diversity is needed and it's not about who is better. We all have different and largely complementary roles.

[@edwardsmith5650]

Too many young people are getting loans to go to college and don't graduate with Degrees that will land them a high paying job. Who wants a Humanities or Arts major? Engineers, IT, Robotics, Physicist, the Sciences people!!! Elementary school teachers are a "dime a dozen", and we have too many unqualified teachers now. None of our high school graduates know a damn thing about finance or money. Get a job, buy a house, get in debt. Thats it! Thats what they teach. Its Indoctrination to create workers and consumers for The Rich. The Rich don't work. Their money works for them They don't pay taxes on their assets. Assets put money in your pocket and that is not taxable....its Cash Flow. Thats not taxable. Income is taxable, cash flow is not. There Is A Difference!... and the Rich don't want you to know that. Know why Trump hasn't shown his Tax Return?......he doesn't pay any. All his assets are real estate that pay a monthly income, which is Cash Flow. Not Taxable and thats in the Law and its there for all of us, but they don't teach that in school because the Establishment needs workers, consumers who are not financially literate. Nearly 40% of your income from an hourly wage job, is paid out as taxes. $.40 out of every dollar goes to the government. 0% of Cash Flow from Asset Income. Zero!....and its legal. Income from rental property is not taxed. Learn finance young people. Buy a fixer upper with a bank loan, rent it out, that money is yours...tax free Keep doing that. Soon you won't have to work. Let Debt work for you.

[@gideondavid30]

Raise or lower the standards is irrelevant. If you want to learn read books in a library. If you want a job when you graduate then pick the right field.

[@affipk]

inspiring

[@dizzydino1]

BRAVO !!!!

[@tempusmagic]

I think a lot of people miss the point of this, education as we used to know it lost value. I think what it means going to university is not a privilege anymore but an option to go somewhere even with no goals. Yes you go to define the goals but education is not the same is not pointing it out or helping people achieve em as before. Anyways I think more people need to become more independent of the system and work ffor their own, perfect jobs arnt coming back.

[@shebotnov]

lost value? Yea, because master in computer science is the same as someone who watched couple of youtube videos about programming. Keep dreaming and thinking that education lost its value. What a closeminded view.

[@tempusmagic]

That is of course an amazing profession that requires certain level of learning skills. You do neeed to like that , you just don't go to university for that. You have to want that.

[@dablackalbino7022]

RCStuff The humanities, to a great degree, have lost their value. It is these subjects which have likewise been plagued by the close-mindedness of post-modernist thinking, something you indicate a disdain for. In terms of educational quality and employability, STEM is still served well by universities, non-STEM, not so much.

[@CarloAntonio10]

+RCStuff The best programmers and hackers didn't become the best by listening to lectures in a classroom. Whether it is in academics or in sports, some people are born with natural aptitudes that cannot be taught or coached. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Lionel Messi, Barry Bonds etc; those guys simply have/had the natural aptitude to do well in their respective fields, and university education certainly was not necessary for their success. I am highly doubtful that any significant causal relationship exists between attending university and improvement of proficiency at a given task(s). Those who become proficient had the natural ability that allowed them to do so, and they could have become proficient regardless of whether or not they attended a university. Those who lack this natural ability will never achieve certain levels of proficiency even if they go to university. In that regard university education is indeed overvalued.

[@Yutappy99]

I find all these people that goes over their time limit are lacking in both manners and the intellectual rigour of a educated person.

[@facfortiaetpatere4287]

Totally agree , haha

[@MauriatOttolink]

Yutappy People that "go" not "goes"............"Intellectual rigour, Eh?"

[@rubear8245]

i consider you to be absolutely disgusting and deplorable.

[@ajmalnazir1684]

Measure the length of the barometer, then use barometer to measure 1 floor and multiply that by number of floors in the skyscraper. Also, they did not say what units they want the answer in, so you can just say each floor is 20 barometers long and there are 100 floors so 20,000 barometers long (20,000bm or 20kbm)

[@joehoe222]

I'm studying journalism now, and although I heartly would promote higher education, I see so many troubles in the education culture and system now. It's focussed on getting as many degrees through, not giving students what they need to succeed. My experiences are that professors, lectors and teachers aren't busy teaching, but dropping exercises to students and actually not helping them getting a good degree. I don't know why, but I didn't make it to my bachelor by standards that were just not taught to me. That's just painful. I hear this across whole the line. The problem is the education system, not the students.

[@user-ch3kr2dk1k]

I agree that too many people go to university, based on the number of limited-use courses available. If the courses were really academic, it wouldn't be a problem. Claire Fox was correct, although I find her repugnant in many of her other views. Excellent talk by Jenna Nicholas. Good points made, although citing millionaires who have been successfull without higher education is totally missing the point and shows that she may be just another gold-digger.The value of universities is not necessarily about getting rich, rather enriching. Baroness O'Niell called accountancy a top job! Stupid. Bean counters are held in too high regard in many places. Ceci makes good points but also plenty of irrelevant ones. She also naiively neglects the value of some universities' courses and the logistics of having the whole populace with degrees. Also everyone does have the right to study in further education, and no one is against that. She ignored the argument that the standards have dropped, which doesn't help the country. Universities are (or were) here to teach people further in fields that require it. Complicated fields where study is required to reach a leading level of expertise. To hit the ground running in a complicated job. You don't need a university to teach you how to be a hotel manager or a fitness instructor. There's a confusion between academic and vocational courses. In a way Universities have their own (prestigious) image to blame. Everone wants to be a graduate. It has lost it's meaning thanks to governments wanting to please the population. And there is the business side of things. Universities are now mainly big businesses. It's in their economic interest to take in and pass more students.That's wrong. I finished studying 20 years ago, and was disappointed by the amount of idiots on my course (although I'm sure some regarded me as one of them). I expected to be rubbing shoulders with highly intelligent people. The truth was very different.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Students will say why hear noise? Students will say it's a privilege indeed to be given an Ear let them hear!

[@davidwell686]

In the USA we have to attend a college to get a good high school education. A simple clerk job in the Federal government requires a BA degree. That is how it works now.

[@xarastewartmusic]

4th speaker was like Hermione Granger going on a rant

[@Kombaiyashii]

1:12:05 - What was that Chairman Mao reference?

[@kynchan3332]

It really depends on whether the economy really needs university educated people. If not it is a waste of time and money for most students who could be on apprenticeships, learning on the job, getting paid and not getting into any debt. Very few people go into research and most jobs do not require university education.

[@elizabethgracewright3115]

Going to university to think and gain knowledge and understanding? NO there's an app for that.

[@MarekDz60]

I don't think it is for people to decide if the number of students at universities is to large. According to the Nash equillibrium after a couple of debates about 50% should be in favor. If we did similar debates of how many people should live in the Buckingham Palace, 50% after many debates should vote 'more'. In both cases, the Buckingham Palace and universities, in the long run it is disastrous for the quality when people decide about the quantity - Russia and other communist countries have experienced it

[@haroldpearson6025]

Born in 1941 left school at 15 served a 5 year apprenticeship in engineering with a City and Guilds, which I am told is equal to BSC these days! I have had a wonderful life working in 7 developing countries including 15 years with the UN. I have done well because I could "do stuff" not just talk about it!

[@kynchan3332]

Unfortunately, people have had to really be able to think for themselves otherwise they risk being betrayed by the self serving people in charge. A whole generation of people have been betrayed and they don't know it. I took a Chemistry degree (with over 2/3 of it theory) but it led no where from all the rejection letters so quickly charged towards the trades, joinery being the first. That led to house building and renovations, but getting sick of other tradesmen taking weeks to arrive I took on plumbing, electrical and bricklaying courses as well so could do most of the work myself, even if some of it needed to be signed off. With shortages in housing, banks and investors only too willing to finance property it has been a long term boon. Life is very sweet now, living and investing the excess income that comes from rentals.

[@donhansen1175]

Surely the fact that the person who is smart and diligent will on average make much more than one who is not smart and diligent whether or not he/she attends university. Perhaps the value accrues more to society at large than many people would suppose. don

[@tonycatman]

On the counterside, otherwise productive people are removed from the workforce for several years.

[@QuiteInTheAuditorium]

I am one of the lower classes (grew up in a trades family) who went to university. I eventually made it to Oxford University. If I had not gone I would not be were I am today with a job I love (I took an academic subject). The idea that having a plethora of Universities is damaging is ridiculous as is the idea of the 'consumerist' phenomenon. I couldn't afford to go and almost worked full time while studying full time even with government financial support. I didn't have parental money helping me. If that support was taken away I would not be able to go at all. If anything I think it should be free if you want to use it to mobilise the lower classes. If this were, so many more people would study for intellectual gain rather than for a 'job' due to the financial constraints and it would allow those to pursue academic rigor. Those who wish to go for a job should be allowed to pursue vocational courses. The choice allows for the facilitation of a wider range of skills that are needed in society. I really do not like the argument that everyone should somehow aspire to study the classics or something as' rigorous' if they want to go, what an obnoxious view, it eliminates the idea of what intelligence is. If your argument is that only academic intelligence is intelligence and therefore that is what universities are for, then fine, but we know that just is not true. And if that is all universities are for we would have a really poor workforce full of philosophers which does not sound as appealing as the diversity and potential currently on offer. Training to be an events manager or retail whatever requires a different intelligence to becoming an English graduate but is just as valuable and 'rigorous' if it gets you your desired job or personal quest for knowledge. The motion for have a very arcane view on intelligence and want to somehow cast academia as superior and god forbid they would have to mingle on a university campus with those who do not want to discuss Shakespeare in depth but have other interests who could actually teach them something they would not come into contact with otherwise and visa versa.

[@GUITARTIME2024]

sea Fearer you certainly have that british long windedness. thk God us yanks know how to summarize on the fly.

[@denisdaly1708]

sea Fearer well said.

[@rubear8245]

@@GUITARTIME2024 its bcause he's a woking class man with nothing but a longwinded education in his throat> now he calls himself one of the lower classes. its utterly tragic id just call myself a Godless moron if i were him

[@tomgreene6579]

They all get honours degrees now and nobody can fail...but they are so creative .

[@A2Z1Two3]

We need to prioritise courses that will benefit the country , and reduce those that don’t . We need financial help for students studying the courses that will lead to graduates that will fill key positions that the country needs. Students can enrol in other courses, but should pay the full costs .

[@allancrotch2953]

well said as i understand in the 60s uni was free for the top apprpx 15% better that than the tax payer stuck with the dept of the failures

[@ironmurs6903]

It really doesn’t matter what is studied, or even learned, it’s the commitment to completing something that leads a person to push thru higher ed. and the sense of accomplishment can then be embedded into that person and future studies or goals are set in motion.

[@martingrundy5475]

Are you being serious Murray? Isn't that what school is supposed to be for? This sounds as if extra tuition is needed before people can begin working. Let's also be honest here. These days a great deal of the courses are pretty much horseshit, and of no value or use in the real world or in garnering employment. Many of these intellectually very basic courses actually demonstrate little in regards the virtues you are referencing. There is not that much to push through. I would say it absolutely matters what one is doing. What is more I'm sure you do too actually. ERRR...... You don't hire people/employees do you?

[@putinsgaytwin4272]

Ok and what if I learned how to do something myself completely alone without a financial burden pushing me to complete it? Why won’t companies hire me?

[@v12_biturbo63]

Holy shit the two girls from St Paul's are amazing!!

[@nondumisondhlovu9181]

To respond to the second speaker, in South Africa, there is a number of graduates who stand on the streets displaying their qualifications asking for employment.

[@dogcatparty7371]

November 1, 2019 Ideally, every college 'lecture' should be filmed and put on You Tube. It should probably just focus on the instructor and the screen nearby. This could help 8 billion take courses at home, verses traffic jams everywhere. The human population is supposed to double about every forty years, so this is extremely important. Instructors should get maximum pay (equal in hour to any president, member of congress, any oil and gas lobbiest) for tutoring students over Skype, exactly where they have questions (incorrect exam answers). Every student should be (required) to read all their text books out loud, cover to cover, on You Tube. This would help millions with dyslexia, ADD, autism spectrum, etc. to learn from watching other students (from around the world) on You Tube. This could also lower the number of (billions) getting on an airplane to attend a college and polluting the air with toxic fuel. Please watch 'Under an Ionized Sky' by Elana Freeland to learn what is causing the deadly fires in California. The media joke about this all being in the future 'to kill drug cartels in Mexico' like the sick Armstrong and Getty radio show this morning, while horses burn to death in agony.

[@thebiomatrix]

Perhaps there ought be a degree in the results of 'Off Shoring' and an enquiry into how the Trivium, came to be removed. The public sector jobs, before they were privatized, were open to all those, with a reasonable levels of English and Math's.

[@rumco]

I love Claire Fox :)

[@splinterbyrd]

Too many people go to university? No shit Sherlock!!

[@Robert_McGarry_Poems]

So... You shouldn't seek out immersive cultural education, Unless You are accepted to Oxford... This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

[@Robert_McGarry_Poems]

Ah, I see... You go to university to learn to take advantage of other human beings inside the framework of capitalism. Not education. So, it only makes sense from the point of view of those already educated... 🤔 Hmmm.

[@Robert_McGarry_Poems]

Neo liberalism, at it's finest. My right to an education isn't any of your concern. If they are going to use institutions to gentrify already well off individuals, I'm going to sit in and absorb the knowledge. F tuition.

[@Mike-sv2nu]

Can't have more degree holders, the middle classes wouldn't feel so Special if degrees were more Common.

[@martingrundy5475]

MAN. That is dumb. With a capital F.

[@blackandwhiterag1117]

Wasn't it D H Lawrence who said that fifty per cent of the population were uneducable and should be taught a trade? Back in 1963 I was singularly unimpressed at the A-level pass mark which was set at 45 per cent. Even children's graded music examinations had a pass mark of 66 per cent. As a future professional musician I regarded university as a waste of time.

[@shuddupeyaface]

I've been a rector. Yes. That's what I heard too.

[@shipaskof8371]

Same in Ireland. I began to suspect this 20 yrs ago. This girl says everything and more that iv thought for so long.

[@putinsgaytwin4272]

That uni is pointless?

[@suzanne6441]

I don't agree with the thrashing of students, who are the victims - of pandering and exploitation. But the lofty young people objecting to peers who aren't really their peers speaking out - is gross.

[@kahunakorteze2763]

Fireeeee!!!!!!

[@Pacdoc-oz]

how disgusting and offensive to hear some arrogant individual calling people snobs in lieu of argument!

[@Ultra_James__T]

Onora might be a posh old hag but she’s very compassionate towards the struggles of ordinary people. Astounding - didn’t expect that.

[@konstantinavramidis5436]

Just stream your lectures on youtube...

[@the_9ent]

Education is not a dirty word

[@bp56789]

Why shouldn't it?

[@denisdaly1708]

Education adds about 4 to 7 years to life expectancy. It also contributes to wellbeing. And this is before any of the other benefits.

[@honkytonk4465]

Money?

[@Sophia-cd2ci]

Is it that university increases life expectancy and wellbeing? Or that people with increased life expectancy and better wellbeing (due to being in better health, financial positions etc.) are more likely to attend university?

[@nachannachle2706]

This are the most ridiculous terms of a debate I have witnessed on YT. Clearly, if you want knowledge and understanding, you can read in the library, watch a youtube channel or take an online course. If you want the skills, take up a training/apprenticeship with or without an institution. Universities are only there to facilitate the LOGISTICS of learning (i.e available project partners, lecturers, assessments, library, training places, networking opportunities, certificates, etc.). Any university that provides this is doing a GREAT job. Larry P. and Mark Z attended Uni for the sake of the stamp and social connections, not because it was going to make them more "intellectual". They were already critical thinkers, they just needed to find like-minded people to move on in life with. And because they did find these people, they were able to come up with their FB and Google revolutions. This world is populated with a lot of potential Mark Z and Larry P, but unfortunately, the majority of them will go to "average" universities, therefore, they will have to wait another 10+years before they can do their own revolution in their own specialist area (i.e Elon Musk) University or Not, degree or not, connections or not, you cannot stop those who are hungry to learn and make a difference.

[@casiandsouza7031]

I don't know what the value of IQ is but the cultural stratification of society is significant to me.

[@missbrightside515]

RIP Sir Clement!

[@umeshprasadsingh9648]

REMARKABLE OBSERVATIONS.

[@chemquests]

I prefer the university as elitist ivory tower of deep academic enquiry. As a research scientist of a liberal arts background, I chafe at the idea of university as job training or certification. I don’t mean elite in the sense of expensive places reserved for the rich, but as exclusive to the most academically talented. I come from working class family and was in the military, and it’s quite clear I’m different from those around me (& have been identified as such by my peers since childhood)…point being nerdy research is my home and this is a place for intellectual and philosophical debate, very distinct from the nursing, education, & business schools. I just don’t know many who enjoy discussing Tolstoy or Homer, and they shouldn’t be forced to attend an institution intended for people that do.

[@dougraddi908]

I'm in love with Mary Ann Sieghart

[@kickinghorse2405]

Not enough people go to university.

[@eggizgud]

The gentleman in the audience who decried his Cambridge education is a prime example of what Mr Anatole Kaletsky pointed out as the anti-intellectualism result from too many people going to university. He had no argument for his opinion too. The Baronesss's last point is the only point in favour of the opposers, although Ms Cece was about to win me over until I heard Mr Laletsky, reinforced by the Q&A.

[@douglashogg4848]

Then you better have a Universal Basic Income. It’s generally accepted the more education you have, the more you make. This coming from a panel of highly educated people...... ‘A poor man made out of muscle and blood. Muscle and blood and skin and bone. A mind that’s weak and back that’s strong” .When I was looking for work, one question I got repeatedly was “Do you know somebody?” The obvious answer is “If I did, I wouldn’t be here.”

[@MegaGraceiscool]

People go to college because they know that employers favor college grads (Hell, even Trump proved that at the end of s1 of The Apprentice). Unfortunately everyone wants to be better off, which floods the market with a huge supply of college grads to meet demand. But since there's so many grads, employers can offer lower wages, which keep these grads in debt because they took out student loans since they were given the impression that they'd get jobs with high salaries. In short, less people should go to college to allow those who do go to college to get paid more. But who wants to be the person who takes the fall for the team? That's why we're still having this problem in 2019. Until employers stop requiring bachelor's degrees, we'll keep having this problem. In the end, whether people drown themselves in debt for a useless piece of paper is up to the employers.

[@majorpaindiaz]

We need more VOCATIONAL schools.

[@missasinenomine]

0:59 (obscene noise) Repetition.

[@craigbenz4835]

The speaker at 34:00 should reexamine her point: To many graduates will spout You-name-it studies for sandwiches.