Total Immersion: Proper Hand Position and Orientation During Stroke Back

[@rod280459]

David, this is very, very helpful ! I am learning TI method and one of the problems I have is not getting enough of a hold of the water - I think your tip has nailed it for me .It is very helpful that you have demonstrated a practice tip that does not need a pool to practice in - Thanks again

[@CT2507]

wow... this simple demonstration makes a lot of sense! thankyou.

[@Christopher-xn6rb]

Thanks for keeping it simple 👍

[@jaykim4677]

thanks a lot. I'm learning TI now. Your video helps me a lot

[@nazeerahmedbagwan8915]

Thanks a lot for your very Useful tip.

[@MrMedele]

Nice,nice,nice a new inspiration for me. Great information for me😊

[@fxasesor]

Thanks a lot amazing explanation!@ cleared up many doubts I had about it

[@jamessiuniak7051]

You demonstrate the hand movement with respect to a horizontal line (imaginary water surface), rather than to your torso. If you were in the water, your torso would be at a 45 deg angle to the water surface. Either stand staight up and do the movement with hand above head and moving toward floor, or bend over 90 deg and do it.

[@heimizhou1489]

If you can also put the camera in your front side, that will be greater help

[@malihaynes8053]

Thank you Mr Shen

[@josegonzaloditchingssvp]

wow, very helpfull

[@bassambassam4412]

Hi David . There is one important point that did not get much attention by most swimming coaches. That is the submergence of the head in water (while not breathing). Well , some coaches argue (mostly for long distance swimming) that the whole head should be submerged to achieve less resistance and to help uplift the hip and feet. This is how Sun Young does usually. However, others believe that only portion of the head should be submerged (maybe 40 % or just covering parts of the ears) to make breathing /inhaling easier or faster . Also, exhaling seems easier when the head is partially submerged (less hydrostatic pressure at shallower depth so that exhaling is not obstructed at all by water pressure (CO2 exit is so easily when head is partially submerged). This can be verified easily by exhaling in standing position . I tried the above points ( fully submerged and partially submerged and found them true). Any thought or advice on this point please?

[@AC60910]

thank you!

[@psc9686]

Palm facing back is great but pushing all the way and passing the hip position is difficult.

[@marsdwarf]

Very clear explanation. I know what it means now to have your palm facing back. Thanks!

[@mustaphab.1190]

I strongly recommend the usage of hand paddles to get the feel of water and stroke mistakes since with the power applied every little mistake tends to pop up. if you apply power downwards head jumps out. if your hand turns left or right you feel an exaggerated sliding skipping of the paddle. helps a lot trying to maintain the paddle in track and body inlined

[@dshentube]

Generally TI avoids use of tools like paddles. However, I have used paddles in this case if a client simply has no awareness of how their hand is oriented while stroking back. Sometimes verbal cueing isn't enough and they will know when the paddle is not oriented in the right way. Then after a length or two with the paddle, I have them swim without it and try to maintain the same hand orientation.

[@mustaphab.1190]

David Shen that's exactly what I'd like to say master. sometimes experiencing is better than hours of videos or verbal instructions. personally I put the paddles on & off each 2 lengths to have an instant comparison & feel of what I should and I shouldn't..

[@ryanlowe6243]

Very similar concept to paddling a canoe!

[@dietmarzabel8220]

Really nice video !!! Thank you!

[@mhakus]

Thank you for this.

[@SaereeNon]

Thanks a lot, I'll try.

[@anar3579]

Отлично,спасибо!

[@zhangjie8211]

Good tips. Thank you

[@alisongarrad1370]

Thank you! :)

[@shoegal310]

Hi David, do you do personal coaching in the SF Bay Area?

[@dshentube]

Yes i do in Menlo Park! However the pandemic has still left the pool understaffed and us adult swim coaches have not been able to take clients since the pandemic started. We do not anticipate going back until at least 2022. Please go to my website and fill out the Contact form www.coachdshen.com so we may be connected. Thx for reaching out!

[@ann9573]

Thanks, it helps, I will try :) Greetings

[@marykalinosky90]

Can you point to a video with someone actually demonstrating this technique while swimming? I don't see it in Shinji's famous demo or Terry's.

[@Drcoup100]

Thank you sir.

[@leesanghwa8175]

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,007 Total Immersion: Proper Hand Position and Orientation During Stroke Back 토탈이머젼: 자유형 수중 스트로크 동작에서의 적절한 손의 위치와 방향 Published on Jul 5, 2013 by David Shen 2 00:00:01,008 --> 00:00:05,042 I'm coach David Shen, a Total Immersion swim coach based in the San Francisco Bay Area. 저는 샌프란시스코항 지역에 자리잡고 있는 토탈이머젼 수영 코치인 데이빗 셴입니다. 3 00:00:06,028 --> 00:00:14,106 Today I'd like to talk to you about proper hand positioning for the stroke back and its orientation. 오늘 저는 뒤쪽으로 스트로크하는 동안의 적절한 손의 위치와 그 방향에 대해서 이야기할까 합니다. 4 00:00:15,048 --> 00:00:18,072 So in TI, we talk about spearing on the arms TI에서는, 팔로 창처럼 찌르는 동작에 대해 이야기합니다. 5 00:00:18,072 --> 00:00:22,090 We often spear relatively deep, so not horizontal over here. 상대적으로 깊게 찌르기 때문에, 이처럼 수평이지 않습니다. 6 00:00:23,005 --> 00:00:28,103 As we relax our fingers, our palm is already starting to face backward. 손가락을 느슨하게 하면, 손바닥은 이미 뒤쪽을 향하기 시작하고 있습니다. 7 00:00:29,007 --> 00:00:31,051 So what we wanna do is 이제 어떻게 하느냐 하면, 8 00:00:32,038 --> 00:00:40,070 as we stroke back, we wanna keep that palm facing back the whole way 90 degrees perpendicular to the direction of motion. 뒤로 스트로크 하면서, 가는 내내 이 손바닥이 뒤를 향하게 유지해야 합니다. 움직이는 방향에 대하여 90도로 수직이게. 9 00:00:40,098 --> 00:00:43,142 and we get to the end, it sort of looks like that. 끝에 가서는 이런 모양이 됩니다. 10 00:00:44,094 --> 00:00:45,106 okay okay 11 00:00:46,038 --> 00:00:47,110 So from the spear 자, 찌르는 것부터 12 00:00:48,007 --> 00:00:51,023 relax hand! palm starts facing back! 손을 힘 빼고! 손바닥이 뒤를 보기 시작합니다! 13 00:00:52,072 --> 00:00:54,076 I start to push water back. 물을 뒤로 밀기 시작합니다. 14 00:00:55,016 --> 00:00:56,108 My palm stays(X) 손바닥이(X) 15 00:00:57,008 --> 00:00:58,015 facing downward facing..(X) 아래를 보고...(X) 16 00:00:58,078 --> 00:01:01,102 also my hand's fingers are facing downward. 손가락이 아래를 향하고 있고요. 17 00:01:02,008 --> 00:01:06,040 Palm is facing straight back. okay? 손바닥은 완전히 뒤를 보고 있습니다. okay? 18 00:01:06,052 --> 00:01:10,124 Now what often happens when people get out to here, 사람들이 손을 이 위치에 둘 때 많이 일어나는 일은, 19 00:01:11,032 --> 00:01:14,037 their fingers are straight-out, ok, they're kind of stiff. 손가락이 쭉 뻗어 있어서. 좀 뻣뻣하죠. 20 00:01:14,092 --> 00:01:18,104 And since they start to stroke back, the first thing they do is to swing down. 그래서 뒤로 스트로크하기 시작하면서 제일 먼저 일어나는 일이... 아래방향으로 돌리는 것입니다. 21 00:01:19,004 --> 00:01:21,052 Their arm becomes a big big arc. 팔이 마치 커다란 원을 그리기 됩니다. 22 00:01:21,072 --> 00:01:23,094 So the first thing that happens when swing down, 아래로 돌릴 때 제일 먼저 생기는 일은, 23 00:01:23,094 --> 00:01:24,132 it presses the water down, 물을 아래로 누르고, 24 00:01:25,006 --> 00:01:27,038 that forces the front of their body up, 그 힘이 몸의 앞부분을 위로 밀어 올려서, 25 00:01:27,092 --> 00:01:29,110 and their hips to go down. That's bad. 엉덩이는 내려갑니다. 좋지 않습니다. 26 00:01:30,005 --> 00:01:32,017 As they get towards the bottom of the arc, 손이 원의 바닥을 향하게 되면서, 27 00:01:32,084 --> 00:01:33,170 the hand starts facing backward. 손바닥은 뒤를 바라보기 시작합니다. 28 00:01:34,096 --> 00:01:37,097 so now they're start to contribute to fowrard motion. 이제서야 앞으로 전진하는 동작에 도움을 주기 시작합니다. 29 00:01:38,046 --> 00:01:40,052 and as soon as they get past about here 이 부분을 지나자 마자 30 00:01:41,006 --> 00:01:43,034 their palm is still stiff as upward, 손바닥은 아직도 뻣뻣해서 위를 바라보고 있어서, 31 00:01:43,044 --> 00:01:46,046 but now they're pushing water up, 이제는 물을 윗방향으로 밀고 있음으로 해서, 32 00:01:46,078 --> 00:01:48,140 which also then teach your hips down. 이 또한 엉덩이가 내려가게 만듭니다. 33 00:01:49,072 --> 00:01:55,080 ok. so we don't want that. We don't want to stroke like this, in a big arc. ok. 이와 같은 이유로 해서, 우리는 이런 식으로 큰 원을 그리는 스트로크를 하면 안됩니다. 34 00:01:56,084 --> 00:01:58,088 We wanna keep that palm 우리는 손바닥을 이런 식으로 유지하길 바랍니다. 35 00:01:59,026 --> 00:02:03,070 from the very beginning facing backward pushing water straight back 처음부터 뒤를 바라보면서, 완전히 뒤쪽 방향으로 물을 밀고, 36 00:02:03,007 --> 00:02:06,566 keeping it face, in a perpendicular 손이 움직이는 궤적에 대하여 수직으로 유지하면서 37 00:02:07,259 --> 00:02:10,347 Don't let it slide or slip, otherwise water is gonna slip around it. 손바닥이 미끄러지거나 빠지지 않게 하고, 그렇지 않으면 물이 근처에서 미끌어지게 됩니다. 38 00:02:11,088 --> 00:02:15,142 Keep it facing back, perpendicular to the direction of motion. 손바닥이 뒤를 보게, 움직이는 방향에 대하여 수직으로 유지합니다. 39 00:02:16,005 --> 00:02:18,049 Then push that water straight back. OK. 그러고 나서 물을 곧바로 뒤로 밉니다. ok. 40 00:02:18,094 --> 00:02:19,136 And when you get to here, 손이 이 위치에 왔을 때는, 41 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:24,108 that palm is now bent that way, still against that. okay 손바닥은 이런 모양으로 구부러져 있습니다. 여전히 뒤를 보면서. okay. 42 00:02:25,042 --> 00:02:29,136 So how you might practice that is to simply doing what I'm doing is... 이 것을 어떻게 연습하느냐 하면, 제가 연습하는 방법은. 43 00:02:30,054 --> 00:02:33,146 pretending you're catching(x)... spearing down... catching... 캣칭을 흉내내면서.... 아래로 찌르고... 물잡기를 하고.... 44 00:02:36,072 --> 00:02:40,150 seeking keep that hand facing back the whole way. 손바닥이 내내 뒤를 향하도록 유지하려고 노력합니다. 45 00:02:42,062 --> 00:02:43,076 all right. 아시겠죠? 46 00:02:43,094 --> 00:02:45,162 So eventually you can do this. 언젠가는 이렇게 할 수 있습니다. 47 00:02:46,082 --> 00:02:50,082 That means that the hand is a kind of doing a little bit of xxx thing xx to the arm, 이것은 손이 마치 팔에 달린 노의 역할 하는 것을 의미합니다.(??) 48 00:02:50,094 --> 00:02:52,180 instead of being arc to the arm. 팔로 커다란 원을 그리는 대신. 49 00:02:53,082 --> 00:02:57,086 Boom like this. This is not a good stroke. 이런 식으로. 이것은 좋지 않은 스트로크입니다. 50 00:02:58,004 --> 00:03:00,009 Keep that hand facing back, 손이 뒤를 향하도록 유지합니다. 51 00:03:01,002 --> 00:03:03,002 perpendicular whole way, 가는 내내 수직이 되도록. 52 00:03:03,004 --> 00:03:06,009 Now another way of my try to work this is 이 것을 연습하는 또 한 가지 방법은 53 00:03:07,006 --> 00:03:10,012 happen something firm that you push against. 대고 밀 수 있는 뭔가 단단한 것이 있을 때. 54 00:03:10,096 --> 00:03:16,168 So let's say, some kind of sofa or a cabinet, something that won't move 그러니까, 소파라든가 캐비넷이라든가... 움직이지 않을 만한 것이죠. 55 00:03:18,042 --> 00:03:26,051 So you can put your hand in front of it and then walk like this, pretending that you're stroking back. okay. 손을 여기 앞에 붙입니다. 그리고 이런 식으로 걷습니다. 물 속에서 뒤로 스트로크하는 것처럼 흉내내면서. okay. 56 00:03:27,052 --> 00:03:35,124 And this surface helps maintain the proper orientation of your hand relative to pretending water that you're pushing back. 이 앞쪽 면이, 밀어내고 있는 가상의 물에 대하여 손을 올바른 방향으로 유지하도록 도와줍니다. 57 00:03:36,068 --> 00:03:38,076 Again you can kind of do this 다시 이런 식으로 연습합니다. 58 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:41,068 and this...do this until you can get it. 이런 식으로 계속 연습해서, 이 동작을 습득할 때까지. 59 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:45,100 Then you can move away from it. 그런 후, 그것으로 부터 비켜 난 후에. 60 00:03:46,006 --> 00:03:51,011 See if you get that right motion. 그 정확한 동작을 습득했는 지 알아봅니다. 61 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:55,138 Now when you get more advanced, you can start the early vertical forearm, 이제 수영을 아주 잘하게 되어서, EVF(Early Vertical Forearm)을 시작할 수 있게 되면, (경고: 초보자는 따라하다가 어깨가 망가집니다.) 62 00:03:56,062 --> 00:03:58,158 then you can start spearing horizontal 그 때는 수평방향으로 찌르기를 시작하게 되면, 63 00:03:59,072 --> 00:04:00,150 get that elbow on top 팔꿈치를 위쪽방향으로 돌려서 64 00:04:01,062 --> 00:04:02,154 and as the hand comes down[ 손이 아래로 내려오게 됩니다. (초보자는 따라하다가 어깨 망가집니다.) 65 00:04:03,084 --> 00:04:05,108 Here first that first move 여기에서 첫번째 동작을 하게 됩니다. 66 00:04:06,024 --> 00:04:10,098 Now not only do I have my hand facing that way, I've got my forearm. 여기에서 이제 손바닥뿐 아니라 아래팔도 뒤쪽을 향하고 있습니다. 67 00:04:11,001 --> 00:04:17,017 So now what happens is, I can bring this whole surface here to push water back, till about here. 이제, 이 전체면(아래팔과 손바닥으로 이루어진)을 이용해서 물을 밀어냅니다, 이 지점까지. 68 00:04:17,038 --> 00:04:18,124 Then I have no choice but to 여기서 부터는 선택의 여지 없이 69 00:04:19,025 --> 00:04:22,099 then release that. And I use my hand for the rest of the way. 팔꿈치를 풀고. 남은 구간에서는 손바닥으로 밉니다. 70 00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:25,088 So hand drops down. 다시 하면, 손을 떨어뜨리고. 71 00:04:26,375 --> 00:04:28,379 You got a good catch here. 90 degrees 여기에서 물잡이를 합니다. 90 도 수직으로. 72 00:04:28,092 --> 00:04:30,156 My forearm is also caught now too. 아래팔도 함께 물을 잡고 있습니다. 73 00:04:31,056 --> 00:04:34,112 And move that whole paddle back to back here. 이 큰 패들(아래팔과 손바닥)을 뒤로 여기까지 움직입니다. 74 00:04:35,028 --> 00:04:38,080 And then I have to push the rest of the way with just my hand. 그리고 나머지 구간은 손바닥으로만 밀 수 밖에 없습니다. 75 00:04:40,018 --> 00:04:41,020 There you have it. 여기까지입니다. 76 00:04:41,038 --> 00:04:47,066 Some drills and practice for imprinting the proper hand position and orientation during the stroke back. 수중 스트로크 동작에서의 적절한 손의 위치와 방향을 각인시키기 위한 몇가지 훈련을 소개해드렸습니다.

[@keithtse6834]

Hi, when you spear the hand is held loosely...as the arm progresses through the catch, are the fingers apart or held tightly together and is the hand hand held more rigidly to press the water back?

[@mrsc300]

hi David can you explain back to front propulsion. I am not sure what shinji means by it. I saw him mention it once or twice in the videos but I don't know where the propulsion comes from.

[@dshentube]

I think i know what he means by that but I want to make sure. I don't suppose you could point me to which video he explains it in?

[@postrachdenis4668]

Hi Dave. Do you do an "S" curve in TI? Good tips. Thank you

[@debsagan8469]

No, you do not use the S curve in TI. Coach Deb Sagan, Pittsburgh, PA

[@dshentube]

As Coach Deb Sagan said, we do not use S curves in TI. Note that the path the hand takes can appear to move in an S curve, given the position of the viewer or camera. If you are looking at the person from a stationary point on deck or in the pool relative to the swimmer, you may see the hand trace an S curve in the water *relative to you*. However, relative the swimmer, you're just pushing water straight back, down towards to your feet. As you're doing that, your body is also rotating from one side to the other. So you should just push water straight to your feet and not attempt to artificially trace an S path with your hand because if you push straight relative to yourself, you'll be creating an S anyways relative to a viewer outside of you. Make sense?

[@MrMedele]

I have a problem! I see a lot of videos about TI, but a lot of TI - Trainers put one hand deeper than the other! Is that right, i don't think so....... Help me........

[@dshentube]

Sorry this is so late. I don't read YT comments and probably should more often! Do you mean that TI coaches swim with spears of one depth on one hand and another on the other hand?

[@mustaphab.1190]

David Shen he is right I saw many too, one spear is deeper, I just neglect that part tryin to be even both sides

[@MakaiGenovese]

Thanks for the upload. Do you eat before swimming and if so what do you eat?

[@dshentube]

When I trained in swimming, I usually ate very lightly before training as if I ate too much, I would get a stomach ache during training. It might be a banana, it might be a package of gel. I have also taken a special pre-training sports drink mix.

[@MakaiGenovese]

I don't know why I hadn't thought of eating a banana. It seems so logical and simple. Glad I asked and thanks for the answer!

[@FFMBMV86]

The TI technique is very impressive but in order to learn and practice in a proper way, are you aware about any recommendable TI coach in Germany? Thanks and regards from Germany, Benjamin

[@dshentube]

Sorry for the slow reply on this. Here is a coach in Germany: swim-streamline.com/. There are two more which I'm trying to get some contact info for.

[@pauleohl]

Get in the water to demonstrate and then add the audio to explain what you are doing. Your dry land method of teaching is worth a C-....at best.

[@dshentube]

This video depicts a dryland drill for hand orientation and is for practice on land only. It is meant to loosen up your wrist and arm during the stroke back so you won't stroke straight arm. What happens in the water is not quite what you see here generally.