Tough Discussion On Gender, Identity And The Post-Truth Society...

[@destiny]

Jo AKA TheSillySerious returns and has another super interesting discussion with Destiny on gender, identity, fake news and more... Follow her ►twitter.com/joannacrichards | Watch her on twitch ►www.twitch.tv/thesillyserious For her previous conversation w/ Destiny on dating ►kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5XahYKklrJmmMk

[@kungfujoe2136]

it's intresting how the certain faction of the left need postmodernism for their ideas

[@thornspitfire3977]

I think you both are wrong in asserting that gender is best determined by self ID, and that seems to be the source of confusion. Gender has a social function that is based on the usual societal expectations placed on the sexes. It seems like you guys are ignoring functionality and why gender roles exist in favor of free identification. However it's not like anything is gained by granting such freedom of identification, it just makes evereyday life confusing. Gender is communally identified, meaning that the group and the individual negotiate gender roles, it isn't just something the individual makes up unilaterally that the group has to concede to. To begin with, the group has precedence on a large part of identity instead of the individual, because the question is which group you can and are willing to belong to, not if you can "adopt" a group. The main point of gender is utility, not using it as an accessory. Meaning, if you are not useful to a group in some real way, it doesn't matter if you are accepted as an attack helicopter, because you will never be able to attack any targets or fly around. Or even more brutal question is if a deer person can be hunted down after their self ID is accepted and is taken seriously. Delusions make for a hell of a ride. And the biggest problem is that if funcitonality is not taken into account, such delusions can't be separated from reality, because we have accepted self ID as the superior to funcitonality and common reality. Technically there would be no grounds to separate delusional people, because we need to accept whatever people say.

[@puppetperception7861]

Okay now what is abstract thinking?

[@puppetperception7861]

@@thornspitfire3977 I cannot imitate myself unless you are my mirror

[@puppetperception7861]

There is a reason for this binary nature to all livings systems. They are adaptive systems

[@NathanExploshin]

She is really good at debating, not just laying out her thoughts and responding but also not making it a spectacle. She does not deserve twitch shouting pits debate layouts, she is like a 1v1 podium debater. Wish her nothing but the best.

[@satouhikou1103]

You're joking, right?

[@johnthebaptist9828]

Tell me you like someone without saying it

[@Frosty-oj6hw]

I don't think she debated anything, or not much. She recited the views of some other people, made no real arguments herself and when pushed by destiny on a load of hard questions she simply said she has no good answer. She remained calm, polite and argreeable but that doesn't win debates.

[@rhersk79]

@@johnthebaptist9828 dude so weird. I thought she spoke very well

[@dark3rthanshadows]

nah but that's what we what, the fuckfest! the shouting

[@maplenutbutter4336]

This is one of the smartest people Destiny has talked to in a long time

[@idkman2633]

Shes the enthusiastic debate lord! Love it

[@cjr1382]

True, but I like the moronic conversations more... (I miss nobullshit, coach redpill, mikefrompa etc...)

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Best video on the channel in a good while. Very engaging, enlightening, and both of the "competitors" were well-read/thought.

[@GUN1GRAVE]

she butchered the definition of gender to "individual expression" which is limitless across the billions of people living on earth. instead of creating a new word or phrase to express this idea she and others like her rather hijack the word gender, with its inseparable ties to sex, and attack concept categorization on the whole. the only smart thing about this is the deception has gone incredibly far to confuse so many people on the self-evident subject of female and male.

[@IBBMS]

@@GUN1GRAVE Cry about it

[@ryans.1900]

I think I enjoy these types of discussions more than the usual debates because, rather than trying to prove whether you're "right" or "wrong," the dialogue follows a natural progression to a better understanding of things for a simpleton such as myself :)

[@Michaeljcorbett87]

This is a good example of the difference between a debate and a discussion. It's also an excellent example of why the latter are superior as a means to achieving wisdom.

[@bestdjaf7499]

Destiny is flirting with her. That's all.

[@Narcissistic_Penguin]

"I need 100% of my brain power talking to you" - best compliment anyone's getting from Destiny

[@JustNeedaQuickList]

She realized it too, made a face and fist pump and everything lmao.

[@raymondm5232]

She brings out the best in destiny. This was excellent content

[@Lt.BunnyGirl]

And Destiny was flirting SO hard! I reckon he might try to visit Australia soon 🤣

[@DarkestKnightshade]

12:44 "what would be the problem with deer gender?🤪 🤡" My ad transition immediately afterwards: "You're not a dish...you're a MAN!😤" 💀💀💀💀

[@flowerhobi1673]

Your NSA agent has a sense of humor

[@velrch3973]

Mainly hunting season.

[@cdubsb3831]

Reject truths presented by twitch streamers, embrace truth set by algorythmic advertising.

[@MoeBulle]

Dish lives count too

[@honestlywhatever]

I kekd

[@RRod22]

Never seen her before (she's great!). it's good to have someone competent talk with Destiny for once! (As opposed to streamer underachievers/reactionaries)

[@caseypdx503]

Yeah for sure- Destiny had talked (pre-pandemic) about starting a podcast to talk with actual experts in their field- I really hope this happens at some point.

[@animeking17]

@@caseypdx503 would love that

[@XSonicReaper]

Calm down buddy 🙃

[@arrynchaos9912]

Not really. He held back HARD.

[@Lt.BunnyGirl]

I like watching competent talks sandwiched between reactionaries/tankies. That way you have some actual substance between the empty carbs.

[@ErdTirdMans]

I'm 5 minutes in and I already love this chick. She's so damn willing to play with ideas and make jokes while being determined with her point of view but doesn't seem to be building in any sort of bad faith takes or willful misinterpretations. I don't know if it's more of an indictment on society at large or just an absolute testament to who she is that this stands out so starkly and clearly from word one, but it's absolutely fantastic and refreshing

[@aeiouaeiou100]

The problem is that so many people with 80 IQ are debating stuff on the internet these days

[@RileyGraceRoshong]

*insert leonardo dicaprio 'hey that's me' meme" 12:45

[@gd8838]

Hey that's you

[@caseypdx503]

RGR- you should talk to Jo!

[@superexplosive]

I think the root of the “deer gender” thing is simpler than these conversations let on. People feel a strong affinity for an animal, and because there’s no good way to express that feeling, they conflate it with gender identity- effectively hijacking the wrong conversation. There’s a middle ground where we can acknowledge that what these people feel is real, it’s just something totally separate from gender. Other-kin and furry communities already tried to articulate this deep connection with non-human species, and they were able to do that largely without co-opting trans terminology. So, even if the deer person’s feeling is valid, their semantic expression of it is careless at best.

[@superexplosive]

@@TheAlburp Feeling an affinity for an animal isn’t really delusional. Think of cat lovers, horse girls, etc. These people feel a true connection to these species for whatever reason; that’s not a problem. The problem is that a few individuals go from “I feel a strong bond with x animal” to “I literally am x animal” and, to express that, they use trans terms. Idk, I think we just have to remind people (yet again) that it’s okay to *really like* something without constructing a whole identity around it.

[@GR33TINGSEARTHL1NGS]

Yeah I think that's the problem I've been struggling to come to grips with for a while, but finally landed on with this video. We're so far from what began as a gender conversation, that when people throw "deer" and "xir" into the lexicon of "gender identity", it is so far removed from where it started that the word "gender" is now redundant in the conversation, it's purely your self-described identity, and it only gets hazier once you start inventing words that don't have meaning or map onto any real thing.

[@trollingisasport]

I like how you put things. The issue becomes from a psychological point of view, how much obsession is dysfunctional for the group and individual.

[@bhaavangupta1772]

American society is going off a cliff, slippery slope indeed

[@zenleeparadise]

This was really well-put!

[@derrekgillespie413]

SillySerious is just a D&D nerd but for gender. Excited about multiclassing and shit

[@williamumbranox7217]

Fucking min maxxers I swear to god...

[@RealmRabbit]

I had a philosophy professor who told me that any time anyone says that Wittgenstein said something, you can also probably find a point in time where he argued the opposite thing... Essentially he had his positions on things and felt like he solved philosophy so he retired from it, then he realized he was wrong and went back to debate people who were making his own arguments...

[@someguy344]

Whilst that's true, there's a clear distinction between the earlier and the later wittgenstein and most philosophical discourse clearly distinguishes which version of wittgenstein they are referring to - the language games argument is an important plank of the later wittgenstein.

[@dbz287]

I can already smell the “destiny took me out of context” from demonmama even though that is what she literally said and more information would not change the context at all.

[@Winasaurus]

People really be clipping 6 seconds of a 4 hour destiny stream and taking that as his opinion and then complain when he watches their whole youtube video and refutes the contents.

[@TheGIGACapitalist]

It got serious at 4:30 when Destiny busted out the notepad.

[@snowballeffect7812]

This is the content I crave. Give me more SillySerious. GIVE ME ALL OF IT.

[@enlightenedchipmunk2001]

I think ultimately this entire conversation around gender and the disagreements are solely due to definitions. If you want to branch out the definition of gender to mean literally anything that someone chooses to identify with, then of course gender can mean all these different things and simultaneously nothing at all. But the purpose of language, and more specifically, the purpose of words, is to define reality in an understandable way. To create something communicable that we can use to ascribe and describe to other people with the least amount of effort. So if you are bent on broadening definitions to such an extent, the word loses meaning, you might as well just make up a new word for what you are trying to communicate.

[@aeiouaeiou100]

Or use an existing word like identity or personality. Also why do these people use the term gender-expression when you can just use the term identity-expression, personality-expression or just expression. In my opinion gender is just the part of your identity that relates in some way to your biological sex (even if it is in opposition to it) and when it is no longer in relation to your sex it is now still in the realm of your identity but not in the realm of your gender.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@@aeiouaeiou100 Gender expression is the gender specific ways of how you present yourself to the outside world. This concept is obviously relevant enough in our lives to warrant its own label distinguishing it from other types of personal expression.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@@im1085 Why do men wear suits and women skirts?

[@artifrac7al]

I appreciate the gender debates. Its refreshing to hear a comprehensive view on a subject that is so divisive. I feel like every body is biased on that issue and as a trans person its annoying to never hear actual intellectual conversations on the issue.

[@jeremias-serus]

True. So few people aren’t on the extremes

[@josiahclarke3535]

Of course everybody is biased. That's how it is with everything. But yeah I can assume it is annoying to hear people dishonestly talk about something you hold close to yourself.

[@Kamfrenchie]

TBh, even though she was very nice in that debate, i'm not even sure i find gender convincing as a concept (that is, as something else than a synonym of sex)

[@artifrac7al]

@@Kamfrenchie I'm trans and I agree, I don,t think gender identity is real tho its hard to prove because the entire argument stems from subjective experience which is hard to refute. From having spoke to douzens of trans ppl both irl and online I truly believe gender identity doesnt exist and dysphoria is not cured by transition because it does not treat the root issue of the problem.

[@Kamfrenchie]

@@artifrac7al Oh ? i'm interested to hear your experience if you're willing to share, but you more than have the right to keep it to yourself. My impression was that transgender actually covers very different situation, some of which dont even justify considering transition or special rights. However, i'm also very willing to believe that the brain of some person can fail to, let's say "interface" with parts of the body, to the point it creates notable distress and physical pain or discomfort. Like, as a thought experiment, imagine if a mad scientist could graft you an additional alien arms that you could operate as part of your body. It could still feel completely foreign because humans brains aren't made for it. Or if you had a limb briefly severed and reattached by surgeon, maybe your brain would fail to get past the trauma, or completely restore the proper feeling. In those case, in the absence of medication alleviating the actual suffering, i can be on board that transition (which would be sex transition more than gender) is a less bad solution in current days. Then we can treat trans people generally as the sex they were transitionned with once they've had the surgery, while making special rules for sport. But, it feels like somewhat often, peoplesay they are trans because their personality doesn't fit some of the stereotypes or ideals (ie i'm a girl because i dont like football, and love pink)

[@BGKoolaid]

Oh dang! This was a really fun and deep conversation! The energy and banter combined with serious, good faith, and complex discussion made this a really great listen. She seems awesome! Thanks for the video, editor

[@grishae927]

This feels like a brain massage. Seriously. I'm tired of petty arguments on the internet and this is refreshing.

[@handsomebear.]

Why? Because they agree? Everytime something interesting was touched on she immidiately pivoted and Destiny even set it up for her to do it as smoothly as possible. Incredibly boring circle jerky conversation zZzzz

[@sugarsaltspice]

tell me about it dude, a nice, reasonable, intelligent convo

[@mrperfectcell1350]

Absolutely Agreed.

[@jamrollz]

@@handsomebear. if you're both intellectually honest then your beliefs simply follow the logic and evidence. Good debates usually do end in consensus

[@handsomebear.]

@@jamrollz wow, you're completely lost in the sauce. I'd throw you a life jacket if I thought it would make any difference whatsoever but... :V

[@mathatter9158]

I’m glad Destiny is exceptionally generous in terms of paying for work done because his editor deserves someone that pays well. What a talented person.

[@berserker8884]

A normal good faith conversation with actual interesting talking points? Is this a matrix glitch of some sort?

[@sghost128]

I don't know who this girl is, but she seems pretty cool. This was actually a pretty decent conversation.

[@salarsan12]

I think I speak for the community when I say that we demand the Zherka debate coming after this.

[@KurokamiNajimi]

Most people don’t know much about lifting and what average genetics can achieve. Alpha Destiny destroyed Greg Doucette on this and even Enkiri Elite Fitness. Look up Natural Hypertrophy’s transformation. Says 10 years but if you sit through the explanation it’s more like 5 years of good training. My personal anecdote is that it took me around 7 months to reach a 225 bench and my arms are average length (if I try a floor press the bar is at least 6 inches above my chest to give an idea). I don’t believe have great genetics, I just did a lot of research before I started training seriously. Meanwhile you have people like my brother who started way before me and never hit it because they know nothing about programming/nutrition (nutrition isn’t all that complicated though). I’m not that big of a guy as a whole, I’m 5’7 165 pounds

[@PedroTricking]

@@KurokamiNajimiHalfway though i started doubting whether it was a meme.

[@SusieEffin]

Yes!! As a lifelong tomboy who is only into men, I always felt this way: Obviously liking hotwheels over barbies and playing sports is not considered feminine in the classical sense, but I always felt that however I chose to engage the world, whatever behavior I adopted was by definition feminine because I was doing it as a woman. There were lots of types of women out there and I rejected the notion that they had to fit in some mold to satisfy a consensus of what femininity is, while accepting that the majority seemed to fall farther to one side than another. I was always tall and athletic, and never was interested in makeup or dresses, weddings or babies. I liked working with my hands and always had a super laid back attitude and a lot of guy friends. I femmed out a little more as I got into adulthood, but still carry what most would have considered more masculine personality traits. Though I get treated more like a woman bc I'm skinny and have long hair, and am around guys more often than girls. I think a lot of people probably thought I was gay as a teenager, but I've never been into girls- which is too bad, bc there was a time when I was younger I only seemed to attract loser dudes, but the hottest girls were always hitting on me lol. And I didn't feel feminine, but didn't have a mom or any women to show me things growing up and felt self conscious and uncomfortable doing girly things, plus super lazy to put so much effort in my looks like makeup and spending time around teenage girls was obnoxious to me back then. If I was gay, I feel like it would have fit better, but I was attracted to guys, so I was a tomboy rather than a dyke i guess. Before puberty I remember wanting to be a boy just because I felt i fit in better with the boys, but I never really wanted to jump ship on my gender. I just wanted to do it the way I wanted. I really resented having to shave my legs and things like that, but I knew I never had to. yet I still felt uncomfortable if I didn't. I guess that's why I did not agree with altering your form instead of broadening the spectrum of what a woman or a man could be- seemed easier to expand definitions out than change your fundamental structure- but that's just me, i don't care what you do. As I got older though, I became more confident and just rejected that anyone else's idea of femininity had to be imposed on me.

[@helnkellrfresh2deaf]

This discussion is 10/10

[@LedragLP]

editor stepping up his game, very well done

[@GR33TINGSEARTHL1NGS]

Yeah I loved the ontology/epistemology/ethics thing. Really helped my dumb stoner brain get a grip on the concepts.

[@poopsmith890]

@@GR33TINGSEARTHL1NGS you and me both FeelsOkayMan

[@TheCrell]

Are people really this obsessed with "identity"? Never have I met a person in real life that agonise over their identity to the point they need to redefine everything around them.

[@jdarling5315]

You are so evidently not a "gender metaphysicist"

[@TheCrell]

@@jdarling5315 but I feel (I am), therefore I am.

[@jdarling5315]

@@TheCrell bravo

[@gd8838]

There's no topic in the world that makes me roll my eyes as hard as this one. The concept of a "male lesbian" can only exist in the collective subconcious of a society that is too rich and comfortable for their own good. Social media was a mistake.

[@gd8838]

@@Zgembo121 I wouldn't really agree. Charlatanerism has been going strong for a while (see 99% of what Hegel ever wrote), but these conversations truly sound just alien, man. I believe the bizarre macro social dynamics that arise from social media, dopamine hits/group identity/obsession/perfomative stances/post-truth, have literally stunted the progress of the human race. Our lizard brains are simply not equipped to deal with information as digested through social media and the internet as a whole. A hundred years ago people were rushing to get vaccinated and survive, now we have professional antivaxx male lesbian astrologers that can't be criticized because they are "valid". The first world has ran out of problems and is busy living their life through those systems. The fact that this chick even has to preface everything she says with "if I'm being transphobic please call me out" is a telltale sign that something has gone wrong. Let alone the concept of a "male lesbian". Good fucking luck to planet earth whenever the current generation has to take care of the world. A generation that is growing up with a 5 second attention span; is endlessly lost in trying to over rationalize whatever performance rich problem-devoid people put up as an actual deep-rooted human affair "well, when drag queens call themselves she, what's actually going on is..."; that has to attach trigger warnings to things lest their mental integrity collapses under exposure to a random word they don't like; and on average can't handle any degree of complexity without jumping to conclusions and "shaking" or cancelling people, or taking to social media to express their offense and demand retribution. Watching these conversations having lived all my life in the 3rd world makes the whole thing even comical.

[@Darm0k]

@@Zgembo121 no, academics are fine. The problem is when academic ideas make their way out of academia before they're ready to be broadly discussed. It's perfectly acceptable for academics to come up with crazy ideas. That's where those things should happen. But those ideas should be discussed and whittled down to something more sensible before they end up on twitter. Social media was definitely the mistake.

[@Rose-rx4zn]

@@Darm0k but then you wouldn't be a male leabian you'd be a trans lesbian those are two different things .

[@user-sr1pp7sv9q]

@Lydia Most transwomen don't resemble actual women though, so I think you are wrong about how they are perceived in everyday life.

[@perplexingpantheon]

This is one of my favourite convos, I'm glad he brought her on, I'll definitely be watching her stream.

[@ze_chooch]

Bro Thalia Betcher was one of my professors. Cool seeing her get shouted out here.

[@unconcernedcitizen4092]

I’m sorry.

[@ze_chooch]

@@unconcernedcitizen4092 what do you think about her work?

[@puppetperception7861]

Tell us more

[@ze_chooch]

@@puppetperception7861 what would you like to know?

[@dafeels3085]

@@ze_chooch give us a 20 page essay on her every thoughts about everything

[@AzukaTheGoat]

This is honestly one of the best conversations on these issues in today's context that I've ever seen. Should be recommended viewing.

[@charlesmiv3842]

You haven’t seen a lot then lol

[@KennedyIvy]

The destiny mad debates are better.

[@a735Alexis]

@@Eennki lol basic brains can't handle higher level philosophy so they just dismiss it

[@a735Alexis]

@@Eennki what are you talking about?

[@a735Alexis]

@@Eennki ok but gender theory is alot more than John Money what a reductionist take

[@chembabe8264]

I agree with the "normy" take from Destiny. All these categories and identities as they increase in number and become super narrow, they become alienating. They begin to serve no purpose. They start to resemble more of expression, like clothing. I feel these things are internal identities of who you feel you are (like personality traits) that are now being screamed from roof tops when they really don't need to be. I not saying they should still fit themselves into the the current boxes, but you're whole life story doesn't need to identity. As our self identity is always changing. So these people are confining themselves to super specific boxes that don't matter to most people. Surely not to strangers. Idk... I know rambled, I'm buzzing, so pardon me. Just my opinion. I'm just a normy that would rather ditch the boxes than make more

[@zvxcvxcz]

I think they're a valid expression of identity, but they're not gender identity and don't need to weigh down the lexicon. I can see adding a generic neopronoun like Xe or Ze to everyday speech, but thousands of individualized neopronouns... not going to catch on. They can definitely be important to people, but they're more like stating out your DnD character important, not defining how you're treated in society important the way gender identity is. Or maybe at like the importance of someone's profession to their identity.. but even there we don't let people just take whatever they want. You need actual credentials to identify yourself as a medical doctor or a civil engineer, etc... Whether someone feels more like one gender or another can only be self-determined. Whether or not someone feels like a deer or not is also self-determined, the difference being that a deer simply isn't a gender, not even a nonbinary one... or if it is, then it is some incredible micro categorization that IS included in nonbinary so we can use a more generic nonbinary neopronoun like Ze or Xe for all the noun-neopronouns without resorting to this level of hyper-specificity.

[@chembabe8264]

@@zvxcvxcz Yeah I agree. I feel we can work in a few other pronouns if people are really uncomfortable with they "they". Again, I don't see how listing out your character traits is necessary in society. That's just how these things read to me.. And exactly deer isn't a gender. Like sure have your animal fantasy, but if we are at work or at the grocery store you're a human and have to be interacted with as such. Or be a shut in, I guess. As selfish as it may seem, most people don't have time to even entertain the idea of how to go about respecting/interacting with people like this. Our society isn't at this point. So it seems so weird they pitch fits that we don't live in their fantasy. But luckily this is mostly online

[@TheMcLaughlincrew]

I think people assign too much weight to gender. As you said, it's only a category to help group certain people together. It doesn't define you as a person just because you happen to fall into one of these categories. Every one on the planet is unique in someway, why don't we all identify as ourselves as opposed to inventing a million new genders based on everyone's slightly varied personalities. You're probably more to the left than I am on these issues but 100% we have enough common ground that we could come up with a workable solution. I think it's the extremists on both sides that muddy the water for everyone :)

[@MasterBuaha]

The more categories you make and force it by assumption the more you are regurgitating other assumptions(it is necessary but needs to serve a purpose) it is very rare you make only a single assumption about something unless it is something more abstract like a Mathematical equation. We exist in a society(Excuse the cliche saying) so all those categories don't exist in full isolation- mind is always connected to matter(but we tend to by force isolate things only to make sense of it). But it's interesting what you are saying about excess categories that can become redundant- there is limit to progress through creation but not discovery(true progress- significant can be achieved by discovery). I think however if a new field is discovered that explains gender and other things the newly created law category to explain it will become obsolete- because those categories will stand on their own they won't need additional explanatory power and are more likely to be perceived as universally agreed understanding or close to objective/being objective. Whether that is likely no one knows but people didn't know either when Bio/Chem/Physics was attempted to explain things and then briefly Science that underpinned it only for those 3 seperately to become a force to be reckoned with. History of how science was estabilished might interest you imo

[@MasterBuaha]

@@chembabe8264 I think you can't make it out as easily as that. People referred to animals in terms of certain social characteristics, personality traits that they posses- cats, foxes are seen as less tamed and different while dogs down to earth. Foxes, deers shy rushed and timid. But indeed it's very specific innocuous but eastern categories and many indigineous cultures had affinity to terms like that too e.g like: Two-Spirit. I personally think you can describe yourself however you want and it will be connected to a identity. Some people are more atuned with themselves which is something we should respect. But as a matter of fact society shapes individuals more than individuals do society so I am sure they should still be able to find a reasonable closest term when self-reporting their identity what not.

[@lifeyoushouldtryit]

No one is ever challenging anyones humanity. Challenging what kind of human you identify as is not the same as challenging your humanity and its exactly this kind of overly emotional manipulative language that makes people dismiss you as a crazy person.

[@jamesbarnett6772]

Sounds like oppressor talk to me

[@lifeyoushouldtryit]

@Lydia your personal identity is neither here nor there when concerning your existence or your humanity. No one is saying you dont exist, you just dont perceive your existence the same way.

[@zvxcvxcz]

@@lifeyoushouldtryit Quite wrong. There are definitely people that are challenging the humanity of others. They foster a culture where a category of humans is considered less than human and then use that identity to target them. Why do you think nationalists have a tendency to characterize immigrant groups as roaches? They're intentionally attaching a stigma to an identity that quite literally de-humanizes them. They will target the most representative examples among this identity first to create and atmosphere of fear and isolation, so that others are both afraid to share this identity or to have solidarity with them. This is used against all sorts of identities, including gender identities. When they don't treat an identity as valid, it often isn't to include the presented identity with another human identity, they want to put them with the roaches. That doesn't mean that any challenge to any identity intends to do this, just that it has been a frequent and recurring theme in history. When we challenge someone's credentials as a doctor and force them to stop pretending to be one, we're not trying to de-humanize them, and yes, being a doctor is a part of the identity of most doctors. They have a lot of shared experiences and knowledge, from medical school to unruly patients, etc... It's not a gender identity though. I don't think that we're trying to invalidate everyone's feelings and experiences when we say animals/pokemon/objects are not a gender identity. Some people certainly could mean that though, so I think it is not correct to say that "No one is ever challenging anyones humanity." There definitely are people that are, that would want to see people that identify as deer as being less than human.

[@lifeyoushouldtryit]

@@zvxcvxcz again, overtly emotional manipulative language. We wernt talking about immigrants and racists, we are talking about trans gender people, you dont get to conflate all these issues together as if the existence of racial dehumanization legitimizes this idea that if you dont see someone the same way they see themself that your removing their humanity. If someone identifies as a deer, isnt it them who are removing their own humanity, not anyone else. In fact, it's the people denying her "deer gender" that are defending her humanity by saying you are not a bloody woodland critter.

[@pioneershark2230]

@@lifeyoushouldtryit i'm sorry but you don't seem to understand what an example is.

[@DDogg43777]

Language is communal by definition. We, as humans, not only use language as a powerful tool, but are epistemically grounded within it. To create and alter words (language) that refers purely to self-identity, and is outside of any meaning to be communicated, is inherently meaningless. To even ask such a question or even conceive of such an idea, requires language in the first place. So no, claiming you can self identify as x, without any reference to meaning that can be communicated, is absurd. Edit: Awesome! They do bring up Wittgenstein!

[@zenleeparadise]

Well it’s not actually necessarily communal by definition. If I want to write a fantasy story and I literally invent a new language that a race of characters speaks in in this fantasy world, and I write an entire series of novels about this world but never publish them or share them with anyone, that language that I created still literally objectively exists. That ink is on paper, the language has its own internal patterns and way of functioning and is used consistently to communicate things. Just because no one else is reading it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, I mean that’s an absurd assertion, right?

[@dt_msys454]

This is what she's talking about with "a private language". You agree with her on this, are you aware of that?

[@MrMango331]

@@zenleeparadise The point is that it has an universal meaning somewhere while for example identifying as a fucking deer is just fucking dumb

[@ThePainkiller9995]

@@zenleeparadise except these people want others to use their neopronouns, it's not just a personal thing they write in their diary just for themselves. Let's say that you started speaking that made up language at work, no one would understand you and it would totally defeat the purpose of talking to people

[@zenleeparadise]

@@ThePainkiller9995 lol yeah no disagreement here but still my point stands that “language is communal by definition” is flat-out incorrect. You’re upset that the deer person isn’t playing the same language game as you, that’s not the same thing as them being objectively wrong about their identity though. Because I’m sure that if they were to explain why they identify as deergender to you, the actual argument would basically boil down to “Well that’s fair if that’s how we’re defining gender or defining deers, but it’s not how we are” - which isn’t the same thing really as saying that they are wrong about something.

[@blablabla7796]

"I'm just being careful, sometimes you're making a good argument and then you realize it's starting to mirror like transphobia arguments then you pull yourself back to line..." I'm a little worried that people are afraid to cross lines because they might end up being something they detest. The only reason why I'm left leaning now is because following lines of logic from some right leaning ideas, you end up accidentally proving that the left has some things right. Destiny did this too once where he wanted to make sure that someone wasn't identifying as trans before calling them mentally ill. I think when you're trying to challenge ideas in the pursuit of being as correct as possible, you shouldn't be afraid of veering off into dangerous waters. Stopping ourselves at some arbitrary point is how we end up with really confused, smart, religious people. They apply their reasoning skills to everything but stop just before it starts to question their religious beliefs.

[@razzle_dazzle]

_"following lines of logic from some right leaning ideas, you end up accidentally proving that the left has some things right."_ I'm curious, what are some examples of this?

[@blablabla7796]

​@@razzle_dazzle Well, back when skepticism was such a big thing and owning SJWs was somewhat seen as doing justice in the world (at least from the side where I used to be), there is this notion that you shouldn't just be accepting things without a very good reason. This was evident when skepticism had its focus on creationism and flat earthers. Eventually it found itself pointed at pink haired commie freaks that seemed to spout off that emotions are more important than hard raw evidence. It felt good to see these pink haired freaks appeal to some statistic when it suits their beliefs on one hand and completely retreat to feelings when the numbers seem to go against them. Special pleading manifested. I used to champion unadulterated free market capitalism because in my mind it is a consensual system where the market is a self sustaining system that responds the fastest to any increasing demand. But of course I know now that this model doesn't really work everywhere every time. Take telecommunications for example. It seems like, time and time again, the first company to make telephone lines end up monopolizing phone and internet services. Which leads to really high cost and really bad services. I would often just say, "well if people aren't happy then some billionaire can always swoop in and sell better services for much cheaper". But that hasn't happened yet. I would then make excuses like "corporatism and lobbying is the reason not capitalism". More and more did I eventually feel that I'm just forcing this utopian version of the system I'm advocating. Which isn't very different from people that would say true communism just hasn't been tried yet. And I'm surprised because the same talking heads that I looked up to had the same issue with this special pleading. Suddenly, both sides suddenly doesn't look too different anymore. The more I tried to question my beliefs, the more I realized that things that I used to hold true aren't as black and white anymore. Ben Shapiro does say dumb shit like just sell your flooded house. Sargon of Akkad does use definitions that affirms his presuppositions.

[@ofimportance5458]

@@blablabla7796 But there is a fundamental difference between left wing politics and right wing politics when it comes to ethics, no?

[@blablabla7796]

@@ofimportance5458 you can elaborate please?

[@cambienvenu]

I’ve really liked Destiny’s discussions with Jo, two people actually listening and responding to one another instead of attempting to win at all costs.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

It's more of a discussion to reach a better understanding than a debate.

[@Dr.W1zard]

Oh my God my mans just sitting here having a deep philosophical discussion while playing Oldschool Runescape hahaha. (Granted I'm sitting here watching this while playing RS myself)

[@josiahclarke3535]

Granted is was listening to this while taking a shit. Interesting how that works.

[@josiahclarke3535]

@cho OH not the whole thing just like 20 mins. Was a long one though, yeah.

[@Revelatus]

This was a fantastic discussion. I hope there are many more to come. I've always liked hearing Joanna on panels but this format is a million times more suited to her discussion style.

[@chaserseven2886]

Take a bath tonight is my favourite line on this video

[@DudokX]

Sometimes it's hard to believe that Destiny here and Destiny on Twitter are the same person.

[@Lenslows]

4:38 I like how she makes the fist bump cause destiny compliments her lmao

[@RandomPickles]

The fact that she finds no irony in saying that ", making a good argument can sound like a transphobic argument" and then claimed that because of this, she was going to word her argument differently to be careful. What do we call that in the real world? Subversion of facts to appeal to emotional reactions? Very dangerous.

[@Winasaurus]

Making a good argument concisely can sound bad optically. You can reword it to make it longer but still just as correct. I don't think she was saying "I'm going to lie now", just "I'm going to be more careful about how I word what I'm about to say." Like saying "Blacks commit more crime" is technically true and factual, but absolutely horrific optically. If you take some time you can reword it to "Black people commit more violent crime than other races by rate." It's still just as correct, but the optics are far better and it presents it as an argument with factual basis and not just an off-the-cuff statement that is true, if you dig.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@RifleEyez How does that equate to living in a post truth society? First of all the statements are factual. Secondly, acknowledging that the way we communicate information has a huge impact on how it's received, the message it signals and how our own moral character and biases are perceived is just being aware of how humans process and interpret language in society.

[@beaconboutique3861]

That transition with the webcam swapping back onto the stream was slick

[@icikle]

It really boils my piss when, on hearing the "identify as a table" argument, proponents of self identification say no one take's that seriously. It doesn't matter, the whole point of raising the table analogy is to demonstrate that the same logic the self identifiers use to argue for being able to determine their own gender, can also be used to identify as anything else. It's to point out holes in the logic.

[@brianmoore4240]

I was gonna send you the nightmare video but I just saw you had it up in the back 😂 dam it

[@bingbong740]

I cant believe he had a Tough Discussion On Gender, Identity And The Post-Truth Society...

[@beastmodecowboy209]

Again

[@bingbong740]

@@beastmodecowboy209 LOL im FARMING likes bro i do this everywhere i get the opportunity and it always gets a SOLID amount of likes

[@mrperfectcell1350]

This might be my favourite Destiny "debate". I actually understood everything they were talking about, everything made perfect sense to me, and the comments are reasonable as well. Hope to see more content like this.

[@RipleyVolta]

Can we just get a regular Destiny and Jo discuss philosophy podcast, please? This content is based.

[@donkpoker2709]

Completely whiffed the chance to say "Rammin deez nutz in yo mouf" at 2:18

[@SergeofBIBEK]

People can think they are in love and not actually be in love. Later they can be introspective and determine that they were, indeed, not actually in love at the time. This ground of trust someone's own mental processes to determine truths about themselves seems shaky at best.

[@BlakeZeb]

I kind of agree but what’s the alternative?

[@SergeofBIBEK]

@@BlakeZeb hard question. I don't have a satisfactory answer. My own solution is healthy skepticism. No idea if it's the right decision.

[@pkmncq]

It’s so nice that you’re actually able to have a conversation about these topics with her without it devolving into a meta conversation

[@UnlimitedAuthority]

We need to get Rem, PP and Jo all in the same voice call.

[@t-poison1731]

Whos Jo

[@desiderio476]

jo mama

[@Thehatter106]

Haha, you said peepee

[@kairee1]

And then throw in xqc, zherka, infrared, and trainwrecks in the middle of the discussion PepeLaugh

[@swaggitypigfig8413]

PEEPEE!

[@magicmark3309]

“A women is X…context” is just a circular argument. This conversation is like watching a new college student regurgitate their professors ideas without understanding the actual concepts except the concepts make no sense in the first place if you dig down.

[@YemYum]

I get really exited for convos with jo. It’s refreshing listening to both her and destiny actually pound out ideas. So soothing.

[@Nobody91021]

Haven't finished the video but a great conversation to listen to. Just interesting outlooks and perspectives that exchange information and questions without having to be petty or act all on emotion without logic.

[@kalopravov]

29:20 "Sometimes you're making a good argument and then you realise that it's starting to mirror a transphobic argument and have to pull yourself back." What kind of logic is that? Either an argument is good or it's bad.

[@xandernewton1095]

Yeah that kind of bothered me too.

[@dt_msys454]

It's more of a "is this argument consistent with everything else I believe?" moment than anything else. After making sure that it was consistent, she continued.

[@MiBasse]

@@dt_msys454 Yeah, "pull yourself back" seems more likely to refer to taking a broader view than retreat.

[@kalopravov]

​@@dt_msys454 So what you believe determines the validity of an argument? "This is immoral, so it can't be true" That's a fallacy.

[@dt_msys454]

@@kalopravov Nope, not what I'm saying. Here's an example: if I argue that apples are red (and thus believe apples are red), and in another argument I use "apples are green" as a premise, there's a problem. I cannot hold both of these positions while being logically consistent.

[@GodKingEmber]

I'm slowly starting to enjoy this. :D edit: if you act like a kid, and you're 50 are you a kid?

[@tryga3138]

Editor-san knocking it out of the park again!

[@ThyCorruptor]

August is out here putting work in as always.

[@aniekanumoren6088]

Damn that edit at 9:33 was smoooooth 🧈🧈🧈

[@nalla1782]

I feel like gender literally doesn't exist, and the insanely complicated discussion about it is going nowhere tbh

[@LoneWulf278]

I’m starting to agree with this.

[@Twigmannn]

What do you mean by that?

[@nalla1782]

@@Twigmannn Like, "gender" as defined by modern liberals (as in separate from sex) isn't even a real thing because it's all just based on arbitrary gender roles, so it feels like gender itself doesn't even exist, so trying to discuss it is useless because you're trying to discuss something based on arbitrary social expectations as if it's something concrete and real.

[@Twigmannn]

@@nalla1782 I can understand where you're coming from. Maybe it would be useful to separate gender from gender identity. Gender being the prescribed social role emergent largely from biological sex (which itself while not purely binary is largely bimodal) and gender identity being an amalgamation of both the individual's sense of their own biological sex and associated gender. I don't study this stuff at all so I'm likely super misinformed, but I think these definitions can be used to conceptualize these things reasonably well.

[@albertbatfinder5240]

Gender doesn’t exist, yet at the same time let’s make it the most important thing about us. Oh, and let’s not define it either, because the minute we define something we have a chance to be proven wrong.

[@jesterscupcake]

Her bringing up post colonial feminism was unexpected in a good way. Hope Destiny continues engaging in discussions with them.

[@RealmRabbit]

38:13 Honestly, wouldn't surprise me if there were many ciswomen out there that look at Blaire White and think to themselves "She's more of a womanly than I am." Like, this crazy hypothetical of Destiny's may actually already have happened...

[@soakupthenoise]

I mean I think that all cis and trans women are equally womanly because they're women, but it's definitely true that Blaire is more feminine than most of us.

[@wowomah6194]

No I think you're absolutely right and I'm also sure it's already happened. I have a trans sister who has had more surgeries than Blaire White. In fact...I hate to say but I think my sister is going too far...in that she's obsessed with surgery because she's not just trans...she's a perfectionist and her body is her canvas. That said, she does everything in a hyper sexed up, hyper feminine way... Another funny bizarre contradiction or is it hypocrisy? IDK, it's early in the morning so I can't think straight haha, but consider this: What's a conservative man's dream woman? Easy, we all can imagine it. A woman who's not afraid to be feminine, but who TOTALLY would get all camo'd up, go hunting with him, or at least go fishing, drive around in his truck with a trucker hat on, not be afraid to get dirty and do physical labor, etc. Basically, sure all this is generalizations, I can't lie, but I think it shows something interesting at least in that we live in a world where conservatives, who the stereotype would say all want women in the kitchen and to be submissive, actually have a pretty decent trend towards wanting active, physical, outdoorsy and robust women who can kick ass when they need/want to. In short, lots of conservatives embrace tomboys and even romanticize it...you can see it all over country music. On the other hand, we have tons of young women on the left who are so disillusioned with femininity...that insofar as "internalized misogyny" exists...it seems to exist actually more often in left wing women. That is...I think a lot of the trend for young women whether gen z or millennials to call themselves "nonbinary" is out of shame for what they see as a) not living up to fictional, stereotypical gender roles and expression in their minds, b) not wanting to "give in" to those forms of female expression precisely because they have soaked up the harmful ideology that gender itself is a social construct created by men to oppress women...so things that a lot of women might enjoy doing...I often hear them say that they feel bad about enjoying it or are ashamed that they are so into cooking or knitting or that they want kids. TOTALLY normal stuff for a lot of humans to want to be interested in and as such...I'd argue that left wing women are probably less happy than right wing women of the same social status...because right wing women in the middle class seem to have an easy time floating in and out of doing "manly" things like yard work, going fishing or hunting, whatever. but also doing traditionally feminine things too, so there's choice there. But on the other hand, lots of young middle class left wing women feel trapped it seems. If they do what they love then they're traitors or supposedly hate themselves and so...if they push towards the "well I don't really identify as female" then they can accomplish that freedom there. Thus, I think the nonbinary label is actually a "Get out of jail free" care for left wing women who want lifestyle freedom but who have such a warped view of gender and its constraints that they feel they must completely opt out of being *just* a woman. In short, they're tying all their interests and habits to what makes them a woman instead of just: being. This is pretty contentious, but there seems to be some sort of trend of young women detransitioning after having either been told or thought they might be male. I have no idea what the stats would show, but you can look up many of them on KZbin as they have channels documenting their experience from having facial hair from taking testosterone to becoming feminine again. While it isn't conclusive to my ideas here, it is telling, and worrying, that almost all of them who decide to detransition back to female say that one of the big reasons they wanted to transition is that to them, their concept and experience of being female was toxic and unbearable. I think this is likely because of the boxes we have been drawing around what makes a man and woman in such a way that, though left wing women don't WANT to be a 50s housewife, they are reacting to a misconception that it isn't JUST how some women are viewed, but that THIS IS what "women" are because it is some sort of construct of a label created to hold them back politically, spiritually, personally, etc. This is why when people say "I am in favor of LGBTQ health", I'm like "Yeah so am I!" but I mean it in the way that I think so many people are absolutely, hopelessly, completely lost and are absolutely desperate for a sense of meaning, belonging, and a way to find life to be acceptable and worth living. Part of how we achieve that however is by being both compassionate AND truthful because compassion without truth just leads to people who are either living flaccid, lies of lives or are ticking time bombs of depression, suicide, and pain (or all of the above). I'm not a terf...literally have a trans sister, but I am in favor of a) exploring ways and treatments of helping people find comfort or acceptance of their own bodies unless -medically necessary- to transition, b) helping men and women who aren't trans (and I suppose those who are trans too actually) develop healthier ACTUAL inclusive ideas of what a man or woman is that doesn't consist of believing gender is a social construct created as a political tool by stone age man (lol) and c) preventing the politicization of therapy such that people who are not actually trans but who are mentally ill and need love and ACTUAL help can be pointed down the right path instead of therapists saying "Well what do you want to achieve?" or "Well what do you want to do?" (seriously, I cant tell you how many times my own therapists have said this bullcrap or when I hear trans people talk about their own therapists). We need medical EXPERTS who study trans and know what it is and what it isn't and who can accurately diagnose a person before they just send them to a doctor who will unquestioningly remove a person's secondary sexual characteristics of some kind or another only for that person to realize months later that they aren't actually trans, but that they just hated themselves and wanted to start over. Maybe this is a pipe dream, but I'd like to see a world in which there are no more de-transitioners such as the women I've watched on KZbin who realize their abuse, their autism, their borderline personality disorder, etc and so forth combined with a misguided hatred of being a woman (or in some cased I suppose some men do hate being men...like autogynephilic men often describe about themselves). So, an essay later and here we are. Yes you are absolutely correct, I can guarantee you that, maybe not Blaire White specifically, but many women look upon the expectations of femininity whether real or imagined ones and say "Fuck that" or "I cannot possibly achieve that" or "This has only ever brought me shame or abuse". This is a real hot take but I think it's true: the rise of young women saying they are nonbinary and rise of young men saying they are incels I think is linked or...it's no coincidence. These are young people who are completely caught up in believing that the only way they could express their gender identity/expression is if they were to do so like people in 50's style TV ads and they bail out, they check out and say "Yeah, see ya later, BYE" and in the case of the men, it's more spiteful against others and the shame and hate from the inside is directed outward, that they cannot meet these fictitiously impossible standards. Whereas, I think with women, the hate and shame is directed more inwards onto their own bodies and sense of self. It might be offensive to some, but I wholeheartedly believe that the whole incel and nonbinary thing are very much linked but people don't see it because incels aren't talking about their identities. But being an incel is very much a "Gender identity" in as much as nonbinary is, they are both rejections of the sexual game but in different ways. Incels believe the game is stacks against them because of women, and nonbinary women often believe the game is stacked against them because of men. They're both right and they're both wrong.

[@RealmRabbit]

@@wowomah6194 Quickly skimmed through your comment, I don't have much time to read and reply, but two points I want to make are these: 1. KZbin videos are basically anecdotal. You can easily find many anarchists on KZbin, but that doesn't reflect a reality where there exists many anarchists in society. It's a selection bias where you will find whatever it is you search for. 2. A therapist isn't really there to tell you how to live your life. Instead, they're there to try and help you understand how you want to live your life and how to move forward. It's basically the difference between conversion therapy (assuming it worked which it does not) vs. helping you come to grasps with your attraction to other men/women, helping you build the confidence to open up about it to others, helping you find like-minded people if you are open to trying that so that you don't feel like you're alone in a world of straight people, etc... The therapist isn't there to reaffirm or validate your attraction (as in suggesting you ought to be attracted, they might say something like "it's normal" or "it doesn't mean something is wrong with you" which we should ideally be in agreement on... A lack of judgment is essentially the limits of their "validation" if you can even call it that...), nor are they there to dismiss and try to correct your attractions... 3. A third quick point is I don't really understand the incel/NB correlation you're trying to draw and it seems a bit spurious to me... Part of the reason these numbers are both rising has to do with these being relatively new terminologies... (also it's a bit weird to say 'NB women' since the 'NB' part would imply that while they may be female they are not women as women are part of the binary which they are not... I think you're just stumbling over the words there though, since again these concepts are relatively new especially in how they've become widespread in the language...) I could really delve into this and other parts of your comment more but I got to go... Have a good one...

[@Mutantdogfangs]

What a silly debate. I usually always agree w destiny, but the questions he was asking here were not the right ones. Not once did he question her claim that the word woman entirely social, despite every source, history, and everybody outside america saying otherwise. Not once did he ask why reducing being a woman or a man to simply just a label without any substance was ok or even useful. Her entire argument hinges on perception which as destiny said reinforces outdated gender stereotypes. Its ridiculous. Being a woman or man is not a matter of opinion, fact. You can identify as masc or fem as you wish as gender dictates, but that is not relevant to man or woman. 1 hour and 56 minutes of pure ramble building on foundations that don't even exist. Ik destiny's a smart guy, which is why his take on this really surprised me. Actually unbelievable.

[@ampgod_]

This is such a nice break from some of the brain pudding debates, I’ve been absorbing a ton of your content while at work. This is a nice change of pace from the like Alec Baldwin BxBullet kind of moronic thought looping nonsense.

[@blinkanddie3397]

Omfg another with Silly Serious? Yeeeeeees these are my favourite

[@alwayssunnyincalifornia9272]

1:11:00 Desting pivots so fucking hard you can hear his acl tear, his ankle snaps, and his limb flies off like a GTA ragdoll.

[@zacharychristy8928]

Seems like people tend to miss that social constructs have a social context. Money is a social construct, but it's meaningless without context. We can have different currencies, liquid commodities or payment methods, but if I try to buy something with cowrie shells, claiming that I consider it to be money, and some tribal cultures use it as money, nobody has to do any kind of business with me. "Deergender" is basically cowrie shells.

[@ofimportance5458]

Nice

[@kingbeef5076]

Why am I being told I can’t be a table? I walk around with a cup on my head all day.

[@ForeverMasterless]

I don't think I'll ever truly understand trans people. As a super non masculine dude that has long hair and likes to be in a more feminine role in a romantic relationship I've never felt like I need to be a woman. I kind of agree with Destiny, I feel like all this trans and non binary stuff has made it harder for someone to just be a masculine woman or a feminine man without narrowly defining yourself with a label. But hey people can do what they want and I'll always treat them with respect even if I don't get it.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Exactly.

[@ExeErdna]

Yeah for cis people we had metro, femme for guys and then butch and tomboy for girls which was perfectly fine. Since even they didn't deeply play by the "man vs woman" dynamic. Like how now there's a lot of muscle girls that are also hyper feminine and smaller bulit men ending up being himbos. The grey area where deer, table, or a different wording for the same thing it's fine. Yet they cannot expect randoms on the street to understand like that. Those that know be like sure go head, whatever. Yet this also reminds me of "Splicers" from Batman Beyond that were young people that had their DNA altered because that was the new "gender/fashion" thing because it able to be done with decent safety. So you can legit have a Deer person there. Yet, I still follow the KISS model in life. Keep it simple stupid, since not everybody can understand, they can ironically made their own definement more complex then it needs to be. So it sounds like jargon... Well it is jargon until they make it simpler.

[@apollo6326]

@ForeverMasterless The difference is that trans people experience huge psychological pain due to their bodies, whereas you are gender non-conforming. A trans man could have long hair, be super non-masculine, and play a more feminine role - because all of those are social actions. What makes the trans man trans would be the gender dysphoria he feels about his body, not the clothes he wears or whether or not he paints his nails, and so he would take T and have surgery to alleviate the dysphoria. A trans woman could be butch, for example. Her being trans is why she is going on HRT and getting SRS, but that doesn’t mean that she can’t have short hair or like cars.

[@jd_lione3148]

I LOVE listening to these two debating eachother! It's so calming omggg... I need moreee. Does anyone know if there's more of this, or anything like this on youtube that I could listen to? 🤤

[@SimpleKindOfDan]

Its hard to find good discourse on KZbin. Most of it is just people bickering with eacother.

[@crushinnihilism]

I really dont see how any of her arguments cant just be used for otherkin identity or transracial identity.

[@crushinnihilism]

@@redeyes392 i could just argue that race is a social construct but gender is real.

[@vincentr9445]

I mean destiny’s stance is that both are social constructs

[@crushinnihilism]

@@vincentr9445 i think hed argue that they are and they arnt. Theres a matter of fact about gender and race. Youre either male, female, or intersex. Your either white, black, asain..etc. theres a very real biological base. However, the gender role and race roles we impose on, and expect from, individuals are constructs. It seems like in left spaces the people in them confuse feelings and roles for gender. For instance: If X is wearing a dress whilst making a sandwich, then x would be a woman; even if X is biologically a man. This is obvious nonesense. X would be male regardless of actions or feels. The gender theorists makes a distinction between sex and gender. You could argue that their notion of gender is meaningless. Theres no emprical content. In the same vein we use concepts like "nothingness" to talk about "empty" space. Its a useful fiction. We knkw theres no such thing as empty space.

[@NEO-jb7bb]

@@crushinnihilism Pretty sure he says that they are social constructs that map onto some real life immutable characteristics, but there is a lot of wiggle space around those because a lot of 'supposed' characteristics are socially imposed.

[@sameash3153]

@@NEO-jb7bb but you could just as easily make the "maps onto" argument about gender, just replacing phenotypes with chromosomes, hormones, and sex organs. The only argument against that is sex isn't gender, but we could just as easily say that they "map onto" each other, in the same way that he gave the example that "black" maps onto a specific skin color and a specific genetic sequence. It's a socially constructed category that maps onto a biological reality. I genuinely don't see how the positions can be reconciled. Saying "one is socially constructed a different way" as she says in the video isn't really satisfying me.

[@Frosty-oj6hw]

This is what happens when you separate concepts from physical reality, you end up with all this bonkers shit. The reason why gender (I mean the sense of your gender identity) is something we can take seriously is because it relates to states of the brain which exist in physical reality. It's hard to measure those states with current science but there does seem to be some limited success with MRI and other brain scans. And we have good reason to believe the developmental pathway of the brain from a somewhat biologically neutral fetus to a sexually dimorphic baby, can go wrong and you can end up with a brain that has developed a gender identity of that of the opposite sex. And you can see plausibly how that could work given how a fetus develops over time and differentiates due to presence or absence of sexual hormones. The aesthetic of gender expression typically is a consequences of your own sense of identity, so female genders tend to express themselves in a feminine way. You could outwardly express yourself as a table, but it's not due the same mechanisms with transgender folks, it doesn't map to any actual physical reality, and that's why this has runaway to absurdity in no time flat.

[@Celestina0]

If someone thinks they’re a table then doesn’t that also map onto a physical brain state?

[@Frosty-oj6hw]

@@Celestina0 The belief does, the state of having a belief is a representation of a brain state. But the content of the belief does not. Basically because beliefs can be false. Most likely a belief that you're a table maps onto is a dysfunctioning brain, aka mental illness. If all that was required for this sort of thing to be valid is that you hold a belief in something then you end up back at anything can be true.

[@Celestina0]

@@Frosty-oj6hw so you’re saying that all that gender is is a belief about whether you have a male or female brain?

[@Spacewith2224]

@@Celestina0 yeah I am trans and this is my understanding of what gender identity is.

[@MustardSkaven]

@@Frosty-oj6hw gender dysphoria is a mental disorder as well. Just like thinking you're a table.

[@machshy6422]

I can’t stand accidentally clicking on a KZbin notification

[@brentanthuenis9875]

your index finger is out of control, amputate it

[@williamumbranox7217]

Hahaha her talking shit the entire time he was away was fucking hilarious

[@shift7808]

She doesn't answer any of his questions, and goes on for ages about something he never asked about. Truly infuriating.

[@LtDeadeye]

It seems a lot of this is preemptively decided by accepting the claim that gender and biological sex are separate and distinct. If by gender, one just means sex in the semantic sense then you get the deer argument.

[@mysticonthehill]

I feel that is the purpose. Essential that advocates of such as deer gender desire gender to be meaningless. Which I feel hints that some of people who transition actually aren't do so to gender dysphoria but some psychological need to subvert, be contrarian or rebel against norms. I may be off the mark but I do feel those vibes from some folks.

[@curtisyue182]

How is no one talking about where her head is positioned on Destiny's desktop background LMAO

[@bloodwolf2609]

what

[@beverycarefuljohn586]

What

[@MarsUtlaga]

Huh?

[@animeking17]

Huh?

[@curtisyue182]

Huh?

[@madMILL3R]

Completely aside from the video itself, i gotta say right off the bat that effect on the coming up section were pretty neat.

[@matthewwalker3099]

Holy crap half of this conversation was just please don't crucify me for what I'm about to say because it might make me .... Phobic. Is this really progress? Is this what we all want?

[@matthewwalker3099]

@@SkeleTonHammer Trolls on the internet have contributed more to the ills of our time than I think anyone gives credit to so you're spot on I think.

[@jeffreycutcliffe5805]

This issue is so incredibly complicated. How could we ever expect the common layman to understand these topics to this degree? I'm more confident than ever that these types of social issues will only continue to divide us.

[@Ant794]

It’s not complicated lmao, you know a man when you see one and you know a woman when you see one. I don’t care how you classify yourself if it goes against fundamental reality. It can be that simple but instead people have 2 hour conversations about pretty much nothing.

[@ludvig3242]

@@Ant794 I love comments that say shit before even watching the actual video.

[@user-sr1pp7sv9q]

​@@Ant794 This ridiculous abstraction about gender identity is absolutely the result of decadance. It's kind of disturbing to see how half of society has been subverted so hard that they not only believe in this stuff, but they also react with vitriol against anyone who acknowledges the situation. Looking at most trans identified males, you can instantly tell that they are male. A dress and even hormones don't change bone structure or fully mask certain masculine vocal tells.

[@Jankyito]

@@Ant794 you are the exact type of person the op is talking about lmao

[@Ant794]

@@Jankyito Well yeah because we’re political enemies, they wouldn’t talk about those who agree with them, this ideology wouldn’t even be acknowledged in my ideal society.

[@lunarslingshot1442]

Editor is killing it with the graphics. Love it

[@ginadamn1714]

SillySerious did a great job here, I agree with Destiny on most trans issues but I think she pushes back on the things I dont agree with him on here very well.

[@mellowtron214]

*I am constantly struck by the sheer irrelevancy and triviality of this entire conversation. The turf war over the differences between “butch lesbians and trans men” seems to me like a quintessential case of the “narcissism of small differences”.* This whole conversation revolves around the internal whims of an extreme minority of humans, most of whom only seem to exist in the Anglo sphere, and the idea that there is “post colonial gender feminist theory” with self appointed “experts” is fucking wild. To take this whole conversation so seriously, and to give great time and effort to such hyper-hyper-hyper niche purely internal emotional states, strikes me as perhaps the most *FIRST WORLD OF ALL PROBLEMS.* I’m aware that people can walk and chew gum at the same time; but this whole thing is like a tiny subset of terminally online weirdos has demanded we all stop and define gum and walking and chewing to where we are no longer doing anything while we sit and entertain their mental complex’s’ about terminology and definitions. I cannot pretend to care. Trans women are trans women; women are women, men are men, if you feel like something in between then be that and move on with your life. Your identity will only garner as much respect as it is respectable, and it seems most western white folks are respectful enough to play along, long as you don’t make your internal whims the center of human existence anytime you are around.

[@feliz2564]

This

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

I understand this sentiment but philosophy has a habit of discussing and complicating everything

[@JazzEKeez]

Good talk. Guest was well spoken and I liked the very good faith stance that each side took. 1 new understanding that I took away from this discussion helps illuminate the underlying issue I personally have with gender theory. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like gender theory as a field of study has less of a goal of determining objective truth, and is more concerned with constructing ontological and epistemological arguments that support their preestablished social and political prescriptions which are based on their ethical arguments. I.e. gender theorists start with "society would be better if we acted by these ethical standards." And from there proceed to "If we want society to act by these ethical standards we need to create these ontological and epistemological arguments." Ultimately the objective truth or logical validity of these ontological and epistemological arguments is not as important as the potential ethical outcomes that can occur based on these arguments. The fact that gender theory it appears to start at a particular end and then trys to work backward to justify that end generally does not sit well with me. That being said, good discussion 👌

[@judasseispuertos4163]

She sadly didn't answer many of the questions direcltly.

[@andrewgrime8389]

Now, I kinda understand Conservatives who say they don't understand anything about gender and gender-related topics. That was such an eye-rolling conversation. These kind of conversations don't move people to the Left, they just make people more confused and frustrated. Some topics should only be discussed in an academic environment. We are fucking screwed.

[@Queque2524]

This would have been better if she was discussing it with a person that was critical and had a better philosophical background than Destiny. I have no clue who that might be. Not many people would be willing to slog through the transgender philosophy for the discussion.

[@andrewgrime8389]

@@Queque2524 Rem /s

[@xXWorldgamefunXx]

Wait what? This was the best, most productive and most thought out conversation in MONTHS. I love these philosophical discussions, they are much more interesting than alt-right dude xy talking about black culture again or socialist xy repeating the same arguments.

[@gd8838]

@@xXWorldgamefunXx I'm sorry to say this my friend, but 80% of the planet will roll their eyes at this conversation. As someone born and raised in the third world, you have no idea just how absurd this whole thing sounds to anyone in a place that is not western europe/america.

[@xXWorldgamefunXx]

@@gd8838 80% of people will roll their eyes at everything that comes from a very specialized discipline.

[@Cagliostro85]

No sexual tension here, at all.

[@zakarda]

This is so good. Love conversations like this.

[@scubamanbrian1518]

This conversation is probably the biggest example of First World Problems I’ve ever heard in my entire life. We’re so prosperous any free of problems that we’re actually debating whether someone can be a table if they claim to be.

[@snowballeffect7812]

36:50 if a cis woman wants a boob job, let her get a boob job. If a trans woman does not, whatever. IDK what there is to reconcile there. Perhaps it's more of a societal thing or maybe I hung around the medical community "too much", but generally those kinds of judgement calls on what people want out of their bodies isn't something that I think should continue to exist on society to a certain extent.

[@de-void1872]

dysphoria is one of the biggest thing when it comes to being trans. i feel uncomfy with my female body. thats why identify as male becuase a male body wouldnt make me uncomfy

[@Spacewith2224]

@spoi because it doesn’t make sense for everyone? Not everyone who is trans needs gender affirming treatment, others can socially transition and that is fine, and in others there is no I congruence between their sense of self (identity) how they are (expression) and their sex characteristics. I am agender trans femme for example. I was amab, and experience dysphoria from being put into the binary gender boxes, but at the same time I experience dysphoria related to my sex characteristics. So if we just have me gender affirming care it still wouldn’t reduce all of my dysphoria, but most of it.

[@Spacewith2224]

@spoi okay so first of all gender dysphoria isn’t a neurological condition. It is just an incongruence that arises from having a gender identity (sense of self) and/or expression that is incompatible with ones sex characteristics that results in an incongruence. Everyone has a gender identity, and gender dysphoria is just a feeling but for trans people it can be debilitating. I know cis people with pcos who have experienced dysphoria for example. You never explained how I fit into your model as someone who is both transexual and non binary.

[@Spacewith2224]

@spoi Oh so you just have no idea what you are talking about? At this point it appears to be based on the brain, there is no transsexuality without gender dysphoria, and maybe you should consult the research on this topic, and then use trans voices to help ground it. Non dysphoric trans people don't get treatment, this makes no sense, there is extensive medical gatekeeping when it comes to trans healthcare as it is. For no other medical condition have I ever had to justify why I had to have a treatment and what the ramifications would be if I could not access it.

[@Spacewith2224]

@spoi I have a cis friend with pcos who experiences gender dysphoria. It isn't a birth defect, this isn't how the vast majority of experts see it. That really isn't true, the treatment I had to jump hoops for was HRT! You are being absolutely ridiculous right now.

[@Spacewith2224]

@spoi Can you not call my lived experience a birth defect? I understand what you mean but it is just a different way of being. It doesn't always manifest in an incongruence. I agree there should be a distinction and there is but to say it is between social and medical is false. For me, it is both and they are both pretty important. I use the term transexual to identify that I have an incongruence with my sex characteristics, but I also use trans/nb to describe the fact I also experience social dysphoria. So we aren't too dissimilar in how we see things, the issue is with the term transexual for most people and its history. I personally try to reclaim it however most other trans people who could be categorized as transexual choose not to identify with that term

[@theeendo3677]

Finally, an honest discussion about gender

[@CommonOnline]

Destiny? That's a table's name.

[@OmegaFalcon]

I feel like a lot of these conflicts is just due to differences in how people interpret words.

[@josiahclarke3535]

There's probably a lot more of it based in people's disagreements on whether natural states or those forged by humans are more legitimate.

[@Twigmannn]

I agree to a certain extent. Though in my view a larger factor is people post-hoc rationalising positions that they arrived at intuitively.

[@Duhn2211]

When people change gender from a man to a woman, you must have an internal conflict where you internally decide what gender suits you best. What ends up happening is that people with such an internal conflict will try and solve the conflict by changing themselves externally (wearing different clothes, different types of surgery, etc). This might help to some extent but theoretically, you cannot solve your internal conflicts by changing the external world. You have to solve it internally. There are probably a lot of people who change gender without asking why they wanna do it and how that internal conflict started. My hypothesis: People that change gender has samskaras from their childhood, which has slowly grown over time, and then manifested itself into an "identity crisis". Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[@Sesshounamaru7]

Except part of gender is palpable on the brain, it comes since the womb and its inmune to neuroplasticicity, its called Stria Terminalis... Dont get me wrong, your thoughts Seem interesting but it also seems it could lead to 'convercion therapy' which has been shown to never work with both gender and sexuality... Trust me, i was medicated hard with shit like Xanax and flouxetine and it only leaved me worse

[@jordan3649]

I like how she's very interested in philosophy and metaphysics of things. It's extremely refreshing to find a woman who is educated in those areas and enjoys talking about those things.

[@BigGovernment1984]

i identify as a racoon look how creative and unique i am

[@Queque2524]

From now on I am going to say "Oh my gender your probably never heard of it" I want to be insufferable as everyone else.

[@jdotxl]

Jo is always elite elite. 🙏🏾, Great brain food.

[@plan-b2740]

As an Australian I hate the Australian accent

[@adams8207]

Why

[@tcritt]

Struth, mate. Ya flamin' galah.

[@Rose-rx4zn]

I like kiwi accents ever sense wanting the making of the lord of the rings .