Transforming Lives Through Relational Practices | Tataya Bailey and Rachel Hayden

[@grahampilger6621]

Hey John, I just watched this podcast. I have participated and worked with Tataya for PRISMA in the past. First, I want to say that I have tremendous respect for Tataya and she is an unbelievably skilled facilitator. I have personally experienced and witnessed many profound transformations occur in the context of PRISMA workshops. I want to communicate and clarify some of the essence of the workshop as I see it and its relevance to your work. PRISMA is an ecology of practices integrated, synthesized, and sequenced in a workshop to evoke relevance realization, and profound experiences of transformation and healing. It is primarily non-propositional. It hinges on the recognition that there is relevant emotional, somatic, and relational information that can not be reduced to nor communicated via the propositional. It starts via a mindfulness practice focussed on cultivating individuals' capacities for interoception, especially inside relational contexts. Then, it invites people into a process of mutual disclosure, at first, propositionally but increasingly throughout the workshop non-propositionally. It draws people’s awareness to the possibility that their sensations can be translated into non-propositional communication via movement and sound. This context responds to the sense many have that communicating propositionally often reduces and degrades sensations or emotions leaving people with an unsatisfying gap between their internal world and their self-expression, something labeled “incongruence” in PRISMA. PRISMA offers a solution to that problem by taking the propositional out of the equation inside the “arena” and focussing on movement and non-verbal sound as the methods of self-expression. The process of mutual disclosure that ensues amplifies as each participant commits more deeply to both verbal and non-verbal attempts at more vulnerable and authentic expression, labeled “congruence”. Each attempt at revealing oneself impacts and inspires other participants to take one step deeper into their experimental self-expression. The facilitators constrain the process of mutual disclosure by pointing group members' attention to the sense of risk and reward especially as recognized via interoception of physiological signs of approach/attraction/desire or fight/flight/freeze/fawn reactions. As participants try on different ways of non-verbal expression they find that certain sounds, or movements in themselves or others have a gravity that draws them in. Participants begin to activate or touch specific “imprints” or “entry points” with one another which intensifies and awakens sensations in the body which then become fodder for novel attempts at an ever-evolving and adapting self-expression. The core process involves tightening the feedback loop between two people of awareness, interoception, and non-propositional expression. This process culminates in what is called a “meeting” in PRISMA, a non-propositional exchange typically between two individuals who discover a resonance, tension, or match between their attempts at present self-expression. Inside a “meeting” with another participant a powerful and often transformational exchange of non-propositional information takes place. The collective attempts at honest disclosure orient people towards relevant non-propositional information. As people begin to act in more alignment with this previously hidden information a unique communal clarity and connection begins to form labeled “coherence” in PRISMA. Inside each meeting, the two participants engage in some kind of relational, spiritual, and emotional chemistry experiment at deep layers of the psyche. By exposing non-propositional layers of the psyche to one another a non-propositional reorientation and reframing occurs. As this reframing occurs, people begin to open up, discover, and disclose more about themselves verbally and non-verbally. As each layer peels away the information disclosed becomes increasingly relevant and profound both for the individual and for the group. Thus the individual unconscious of each participant interacts with one another and a reorientation occurs around the cumulative and collective non-propositional truthfulness of every individual. Inside the open exchange of non-propositional information in a group an organizing principle of collective intelligence distributed in the collective body takes place. The individuals and the entire group mutually support relevance realization in real-time acting as transmitters and receivers of relevant non-propositional information which updates each individual by connecting them to the wisdom found only in the group. Inside the “arena” where sound and movement are the primary methods of communication, people play their way into the possibility of self-expression more congruent with the present context and discover a sense of self more adapted to the present moment and less bound by the past “imprints”. “Imprints” are another way to label specific clusters of non-propositional knowledge and range in source and structure from personal autobiographical to archetypal or mythological. People find themselves acting out unconscious behavioral patterns encoded and enacted non-propositionally and embedded in the relational contexts activated by one another. PRISMA offers an opportunity to bring awareness and adaptation into these very contexts where “old ways” dominate. Individuals often discover and clarify the non-propositional knowledge that has previously constrained their sense of agency and overcome those limitations. In doing so people break the habits of reaction, identification, self-deception, self-sabotage, and suffering they are stuck in. Participants discover new ways of perceiving, attending to, and relating to contexts that previously would have led to suffering. Ultimately, participants integrate new ways of navigating these contexts in their lives. They gain new powerful relational imprints that afford them a greater sense of authenticity, flexibility, and agency. Their sense of self, previously immutable and constrained by unconscious non-propositional forms of knowledge, finally is mutable when exposed to the non-propositional feedback in a PRISMA meeting.

[@pauls4711]

Thanks Graham for this helpful summary!

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

Great talk! I'm glad it brings some vitality to the depth of the psyche and the potential for a more alive state and a more robust sense of self while in both the sacred space and in one's everyday social and personal life. The creative force of love, self-respect, friendship, and human intelligence in a way that corresponds to and honors the virtue in our inner lives is exciting to wonder about. What a powerful sense of the self these three have and way more robust than the modern, "flat" view of the self espoused by most people when imagining what we are and what we can be when we're alive from our depths and together in fellowship or shared orientations. I love dreamers like these three! I'm glad to see John's work is so broadly helpful to such a wide range of people and that these practices have been helpful to people! Full of vitality and promise! Thanks, Rachel and Tataya!

[@memanjack]

This is so wonderful. I know these two and did a little bit of Prisma. I'm giddy remembering how rich and insightful and talented Rachel and Tataya are.

[@emilthiels6256]

Hello, "language is so useless " John, indeed sometimes, it also opens doors of possibles by the intensity the rhythm, vibration the intention and ctr...I'm full of joy knowing a new generation is more at ease in exploring those aspects of being and the transmission .John, Tataya and Rachel thank you, good day 'the bow symbolic'

[@pythagoran]

But then why record a podcast where language is your only tool to try to recount and transmit this experience - only to stumble around like children unable to communicate a single piece of wisdom or value? I don't want to dispute that their events bring connection and healing to people's lives but this podcast is not doing them any favors if they are trying to educate newcomers...

[@emilthiels6256]

@@pythagoran Hello, the way I see it, John just noticed the limitations /difficulties of language to translate the ineffable . The speech of both Tatatya and Rachel relating they experiences are insightful for those able to move into these levels of communication beyond words, but this must be for some inaccessible without any practice or personal experience , research and clarity. Finding the right tension between two opposite and antagonistic points, finding the balance your balance the reference of rock climbing is accurate also to reach " the flow". The newcomers have to understand its about" being" in an other way of approaching "reality" John's "framing" getting rid of confusion...ect This is part of an construction 'already started' long time ago, John's meaning crisis series explains/perspective he revived the sleepy dynamics and sustain those by these dialogues and exchanges and by making the necessity / importance clear to apply/use an other way of communication.Whit the help/inter-action of a lot of people the ripples become waves etc... to abstract?! "stumbling around"? not mature ?no wisdom? no value? The Art of not seeing whats in front of you?! Good day to you

[@pythagoran]

@@emilthiels6256 I have extensive experience with deep meditation and psychedelics - so I can understand the ineffable states described here, which is why I am so critical of this conversation. They have clearly not integrated their experience, otherwise they would be able to describe it and to translate the wisdom they may have derived. Especially for experts and thought leaders in the fields of phych, cog sci, psychedelics, and arts this should not be difficult! Alan Watts, Timothy Leary, McKenna, Huxley, Allen Ginsberd, The Beatles, Jimmy Hendrix, Pink Floyd - all depicted incredible transcendental experiences and wisdom gained from their journeys with _EASE_. These people did, in fact, "stumble around" without any "maturity" "wisdom" "value" or anything approaching a coherent dialog. P.S. your comment reads like you wrote it in an altered state after dropping highschool literacy class... Good day right back.

[@pythagoran]

@@emilthiels6256 You may be right that "language is so useless" - _except_ when it's wielded by skillful orators, such as coaches, facilitators, writers, and professors - all of which these people claim to be. What hope do we have to understand these "deeply important" concepts if this is the best that they can deliver? I have experience with the "ineffable" - both through deep meditation and with various psychedelics, which is why I am so critical. And yes, they were in fact stumbling around, lacking wisdom, clarity, and failing to communicate any real value. I feel infinitely more confused at the end of this episode than I was at the start. And you can't just reference some previous episodes - each episode stands on its own. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and this was pretty awful. And don't take my word for it - most vids get ~10% likes compared to views... this one has

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@pythagoran I think things are missing in this talk, body challenge can make certain things immanent and also 40 years later, it is recurred back to as if sole acquainted into "already" imbued and it is justified. Can you imagine family can do this to family? The self-dependence is abused in this case too, to disable one's defensive right. The things some common sense says "that does not happen" is abused to really execute because it is not recognized. When you read "not recognized" what do you feel? That stacks things complicated. Dr.Vervaeke and his fellows are doing good.

[@colorfulbookmark]

The relational practice is if applicable to immigrated citizens, learning language and reactive response reflex is important thing to practice. Most of people can have manner for friends and making relationship is already acquainted so language barrier is resolved, things are okay. In my case, body recycle is occurring, so when my fluent confidential mode recurs back, something harsh happened to me, then fluent mode ceases to reset from it. However, by watching out the talk like this, it would be resolved again. Cognitive science and talk show presentation can help people like me, I respect and honor Dr.Vervaeke and Dr.Peterson.

[@projectmalus]

If the harsh thing is objectification where a person becomes simple and powerful, and usually has some negative emotion attached to this, how can this be used? I think this video helped me realize another way to use triggers. After being triggered, observe what in oneself is perceived as a vulnerability that's being attacked, and decide if that "vulnerability" is really a good trait like openness, loyalty etc.that is quite easy to take advantage of. Also, how one responds, and this together is one way to use the trigger as information bringer in order to realize. The other way I've just discovered is to double down on the trigger objectification, where the awareness of the mechanism is an object and the two can be bounced together in order for self to move. Just like a jellyfish. Have a great day!

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus I have lived life without resolving cognitive issues so when recurring back to cease, it takes long effect. The trigger is adjusted by some consecutive things, today my memory would be less efficient but overcoming is possible when people support me and binaural beat cooperate. Dr.Vervaeke's video is effective too, when brain activation is full.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus Have great day for you too ^^

[@projectmalus]

@@colorfulbookmark yes, I've found that the cognitive isn't enough although it's a big step to understand what's going on. To go on with the metaphor of the jellyfish :) it's as if the cognitive realizing is akin to the jellyfish forming that first torus of more dense sea water. Their cleverness is to hold that first torus - undulate then hold, then undulate again - in order to bounce another torus off the other, in order to "move". Hard to do with such a diaphanous body (like self) when there's nothing to push against. So if the ocean of the emotional can be transversed it seems like a multidimensional shift. Perhaps a mid level of psyche and a lower corporeal level (in the world) are the emotional when combined. But for the Eastern philosophical influence that didn't objectify the individual so much, perhaps this needs a tweak. like instead of trigger^2 by itself as a way to move, have that then do the square root of the result to move fully. Like the yin yang symbol might suggest, there's a trap in duality which can be escaped by going thru the heart.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus Many people are expressing good reviews to Dr.Vervaeke's cognitive scientific ways, objectification you said is what I don't think ^^

[@pythagoran]

I am at a loss trying to interpret what i just listened to... Through all of the jargon and stumbling on words, I can only assume that they are trying to recount some psychedelic experience. They talk about connection, healing, and integration but all I could detect was loneliness, discomfort, and confusion. I am fairly concerned about the attempts to apply legitimate scientific and medical frameworks around something so incredibly vague, anecdotal, and obscure... Yet they all seem to have so much exuberance around _something_ that none of them are able to clearly elucidate. Am i wrong? What am I missing here?

[@projectmalus]

I'm not sure of the reason John gave for seeing the shamanic as increasingly irrelevant (in a video from approx. 8 months ago) but it might have to do with participating in the science, where the shaman is picking up the crumbs, not contributing to the science, and ultimately being less effective than therapists. This is a marginalization from the participatory which is what shamanism seems to be about and so is contradictory for them. Perhaps the people in the video are using science more directly so then relevance is preserved (for them also) while being performative in order to be seen to preserve the participatory. Who will guard the guardians, and who will heal the healers? There's power in a group which can be unfolded thru intelligence (might makes right) or contained and simplified (might is right) which becomes irrelevant. When a large percentage are guardians or healers this choice appears where culture and science conflict in a power struggle.

[@Joeonline26]

This is the problem with Vervaeke. He is easily tempted by hippie vagaries. Lots of these type of guests on his channel in the past. He lets himself down by having well-qualified, serious academic guests one week (e.g., DC Schindler), then people like this the next. I honestly don't understand it.

[@mrgrycious]

Reading your first paragraph, I am reminded of how I feel after listening to jazz. There were beats, rhythms, notes, scales, chords, grooves and solos, yet I couldn't hear the music. Your concerns are valid, and some are comfortable applying their understanding of other frameworks over this topic. The paradoxical nature of life creates those occasions when words seem insufficient or incapable of accurately describing an experience. Have you ever done the "Who are you?" exercise where you keep asking the question to every response? During that exercise, it becomes apparent that we have trouble elucidating who or what we perceive ourselves to be. Again, your observations and perspectives on this are not wrong, nor are they absolute. You are missing what I do with jazz, that which we are not yet equipped, willing or ready to comprehend.

[@evanblackie7510]

Got to half way was all I could take. I know a lot of people suffer with episodes having too many big words, but at least one could in principle say read Hegel in the original and form a view, a critique. With these more subjective episodes I am caught in the unreliable narrator problem and because it's subjective there's no critique I can bring, anything I might say might undermine the person and it's too close to them so I would be perceived as unkind. I have heard many such transformation stories through psychedelic journeys etc and the unknowability and politeness barrier to critique annoys me, that is probably partly why like dreams, transformation stories are often quite boring to others, one has to be very close to the other to gain something. The proof of such exercises is key, in the person's life, and that too suffers the unreliable narrator. How much is guided from a desired narrative and how much is bottom up 'genuine' transformation. Is that person more in touch with reality, or is their narrative reality avoiding. The gap between these kind of practices and cultish subjective decadence is razor thin. And if we just allow people's narratives to be all there is what happens to a shared ground of reality. We are all tethered by our personal narratives and need space to open up, but what if it is still our narratives that are guiding the transcendent journey. How do we know we are not still stuck in another way?

[@memanjack]

​@@evanblackie7510 I guess you'd have to experience it. What would u be risking? To be cynical of the narrators is a simple way of avoiding potential truths that might be transformative.

[@MiPo3333]

I would be VERY careful around trauma here. Did I hear correctly that Andrew Huberman was referenced on trauma? With all due respect, being a neuroscientist, his area is ophthalmology, not psychiatry. And saying that Prisma is for people who are integrated - how is this evaluated? People can be highly functional because their traumas are locked away. It was also said Prisma is like a medical experience - but e.g. psychedelics ought to be done according to a protocol with sessions and preparations with psychologists before taking any substances. And there were a few more highly contagious points around safety in what was said ... I'd be happy to hear that I misunderstood all of that because the concept sounds really intriguing. But again, seems like A LOT of cautiousness is needed here. And kudos to John for raising this question of trauma safety.

[@rolivier79]

I have been part of a prisma weekend and do want to share that safety was different for every exercise and instructions where clear and elaborate. I felt I knew what I was agreeing too and felt like I had agency. But… the skill of the practitioners was what made it safe. I could see how this can only be lead by trained practitioners.

[@philipdsouza2715]

Prisma is for people who are integrated, like saying when the shit hits the fan you weren't integrated and hence Prisma did not work. It's a performative contradiction. Secondly, Integration is an ongoing lifelong process. They sound like a pair who are repackaging practices and labelling them as their own insightful findings.

[@sixtysecondphilosopher]

I am a set of a’ priori modes, not a body of limbs and organs. We need to move beyond the notion of “We” Human is a loose notion at best. In essence, the body conduit has no fixed predicate in the abstract lens so the premise is incorrect. What is it of us, that knows this? Until we know more, we are a set of a’ priori modes trying to stabilise our line in an ocean of dissipating variables. We should define ourselves in this manner. We are a set of modes that allow for systematic alignment. A set synthesised with realities structures and stresses. Understanding this is the next step. Everything else is tied up in a field of inverted axioms and that path is a dead end. If you want to understand the modes - KZbin - new paradigm fish by Yap. Stripping it right back. Alternatively- read my work for free on medium. New paradigm fish Yap.

[@oliverjamito9902]

HIS Beautiful shared "i" AM will say, remember HE WALKS IN THE MIDST OF THE CANDLE STICKS! WILL NEVER BE BOUND! Instead unto all the RENOWNED! Rather not to stir HIM UP! Soothe or Grieve! For HIS FEET RESTING UPON "DO NO MORE"!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Bound come here in front! Remind! LORD thy bounding has a command! Indeed

[@oliverjamito9902]

Angels who persevere and heard the WORD will say, who among can bring nor cast a HOOK in front of HIM? For the HOOK starts with HIS LASTS Name! HOOK come here in front! Remind! LORD J= "i" AM...."i" to....become the "i" AM.