"Transtrenders" | ContraPoints

[@StayUpChasingStars]

youtube froze for a quick sec on the caption of "you're just an insecure, frightened little queer" and I have never felt so subtlely targeted in my life

[@AwkwardKyle]

Ooh that's some SHODAN in the algorithm

[@GyroCoder]

Mood

[@Raziel078]

"Your flesh is an insult to the perfection of the digital."

[@ovirgulino]

I feel very attacked

[@rainshanks4833]

What I’m most impressed by is the commitment to 3 different characters to the point of 3 separate manicures

[@Mgdr2011]

DEADASS

[@muuubiee]

script must've been on point before she started filing this, because it'd be a real bitch to go back to each character and refilm a line.

[@1334neko]

@damntheycaughtus I'm not 100% sure two nails count as a manicure ;P

[@crystalpope2451]

Rain Shanks - Agreed, it's impressive af.

[@bonniea8189]

@@1334neko haha truth. she could've just painted over two remaining nails.

[@kyefurrie7400]

"Do you think that you can purchase acceptance though conformity." Is such an underrated quote. Like that hit me in the soul.

[@weezerblink194]

acceptance through conformity will never be genuine. what do we do about that?

[@MrCmon113]

I mean that's literally how society works. You can start shitting on the floor everywhere, but that means you'll be less accepted.

[@umangmalik]

YES

[@binnes117]

@@MrCmon113 comparing gender non conformity to shitting on the floor just isn't an argument

[@ThePotatoSapien]

@@binnes117 says you

[@luciereder]

can we please talk about how Justine only had two long nails on her right hand, the index finger and the middle finger, and how these would be the nails kept short by lesbians? It's like she's physically preventing herself from being lesbian. So meta.

[@soymaster1625]

And then she pops off one nail upon coming out to signify that she's still only half way there. So many layers

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

I never noticed that! awesome!

[@adamc5914]

Holy shit there’s LORE

[@Vampire_Nightshade]

And look at Marlene Dietrich on the wall behing her!

[@meanbean6011]

Legitimate question, I'm a straight girl but I use my middle and ring finger? Using the first two seems really difficult

[@MissMokate]

"tumblr is twice as old as the first diagnosis of gender dysphoria" is not something I was ever ready to hear

[@suchnothing]

I mean, psychology as a field of study barely existed before WWI, and didnt exist at all before the 1870s.

[@adastra553]

If it makes you feel any better, Magnus Hirschfeld recognised “Transsexualismus” back in 1923 And even then, his medical descriptions of trans people go back to 1910 (and further back) when he coined the term “Transvestitismus” (though he felt the term was improper to describe trans people as he felt that clothing was only an outward performance reflecting internal psychology, leading to the aforementioned “Transsexualismus” in 1923)

[@spiderqueen601]

Gender dysphoria was in the DSM and diagnosed before the first web site, in the 1980s.

[@SuicidelG]

If it makes you feel better, psychology is a product of the creation of individualism when everyone started going crazy because we thought we wern't actually part of a society.

[@gFamWeb]

She's actually being pretty dishonest with that line. While it's true that the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" is new as of 2013, it used to be called "gender identity disorder", which was introduced in 1980. So no... it's not accurate.

[@alinncarmonajuarez6419]

The progression of Natalie’s costumes and make up from when she first started is astonishing and I love it

[@RoseEyed]

Seriously! I was one of her earlier subscribers when she only had a few thousand. Watching THIS vs when she'd stand in her livingroom with terrible lighting and an awkward bookshelf years back warms my heart #goals #inspirational

[@billyb6001]

I miss old tabby

[@stevenoviedo541]

The comment I was looking for. Yes. She's going more over the top on each video and I love it. The costumes the make up. The jokes. The characters. I seriously don't know what to expect anymore.

[@ard1805]

I disagree with half the shit she says. I come for the costumes and jokes mostly.

[@RoseEyed]

@Eriko. Oy I honestly can't believe she's the only one behind this. There HAS to be someone helping her with her costumes, lighting, editing, scripting, and argumentation

[@crystalpope2451]

I'm a 57yo white, cis woman (never traditionally feminine) who grew up in Alaska and knew nothing about trans people, nor how many people were trans. Your videos have allowed me to educate myself from a compassionate point of view. Thank you so much for your openness and honesty. Blessings and be well, sis.

[@jessedarko]

Hard same.

[@katharineapplegath-gordon514]

Wow, thanks for the open mind! That's touching you'd step out of your bubble to learn... much appreciated!

[@dbojangles1597]

Well I might as well say hello.

[@Stabilization]

You’d be surprised how open alaska, or at least anchorage, has become nowadays. I live there, and in high school and college seeing people come out as gay or trans or non-binary was pretty nice. Especially since growing up I was in a town that was very discriminatory racially, sexually, and religiously. Heck, people would discriminate against me and I was only 1/4th Mexican and I didn’t even come out as Bi until I left. I know in the past Alaska was similar mindset-wise, but now people are becoming far more accepting and free to explore who they are here. I’m sure if you were to see how immense our pride festival is every year, it would feel like cultural whiplash compared to your prior experiences here.

[@trewqpoiutl9774]

Same here, I'm a cis male from a trailer park somewhere in the rust belt.

[@friendlyninja5048]

"Do you think you can purchase acceptance through conformity? Because that is not freedom... That is simply adding another cell to the prison." "If my existence is a statement, I think that says more about society than it says about me." I think about these quotes a lot.

[@luisandrade2254]

Só you literally don’t understand what is behaving like a normal social person god why is the internet full of psychos

[@domimera]

Me too

[@jadec2734]

me too, ooh did we just start a movement! 😀😀

[@nitewarden]

I don't know if people recognize enough how good Natalie is at creating the illusion of a conversation with different people with her acting skills alone. It doesn't just feel like she's talking at a camera, it feels like she's actually talking to another person in the room. Good editing though too of course.

[@hedera280]

I feel like that has a lot to do with even being able to write a script like this, you really do have to see from both sides

[@KatyaR]

Yeah I am honestly blown away, she's so good

[@Julia99lol]

This was the first of her videos I watched, and it took me way too long to realise she was talking to herself

[@Hakajin]

I feel like this comes from an internal debate, you know?

[@TiMonsor]

sound editing too, overlapping etc

[@saintsol4928]

Contra is redefining the usage of Socratic dialogues in the most gay and interesting way since Plato.

[@TheCimbrianBull]

*ancient Greece intensifies*

[@merrittanimation7721]

Plato: I am both impressed and really confused at the same time.

[@angelasmith5019]

So the philosophy degree wasn’t an entire waste of money. Let’s see how my linguistics degree will turn out in the work place

[@ThePickleBehindTheSlaughter]

>implying socrates wasnt already gay

[@sabkins3409]

so my AP lang course wasn't after all a waste of effort

[@crohnsdisease5414]

The level of costume design here is honestly kind of mind blowing. Justine's "anti-lesbian" nails, are maybe my favorite visual gag yet.

[@8877dksljfa]

Crohn's Disease i cant stop thinking about it

[@nataliegibson5226]

What a way to describe long nails

[@G0tenk0enig]

@@nataliegibson5226 thats not the point :')

[@TheSkyHazCloudz]

@@nataliegibson5226 It's where the long nails are.

[@nataliegibson5226]

@@TheSkyHazCloudz what u mean?

[@leorfink1]

I used to live as a trans non-binary person and then a year and half later I went back to living as a man. I often think twice about telling people this because I don't what my story to be appropriated into queerphobic bullshit. Telling me "I'm glad you're over that phase" why are you glad? Would it have been so bad if I truly where trans queer? "This is what the media makes people do" no one made me do anything. I found that period extremely helpful and important in informing and building the man I am today. I'm a much better and happier man for exploring what else I can be and truly choosing manhood. I started building for my self a model of manhood that is kind and gentle and suits me much better then the toxic mess I was before. I think there are as many genders as there are people but that trans people and queer people should be seen as a social class that deserves rights and dignity.

[@leorfink1]

@Nick thank you for your lovely comment.

[@ghostboy3994]

so happy you’ve found yourself!! good for you for exploring as well. 💖

[@lilcarttheoneandonly]

"there are as many genders as there are people" i love that so much, you don't even know. we all experience gender separately in some capacity but we also have solidarity with each other because it's not a completely isolated experience, it's when power structures force us into little boxes that we feel the cold weight of gender, but it doesn't have to be that way, your experienced shaped the person you are today and that is beautiful and i hope that things only get better from here, progress is tough but it's inevitable if we keep moving forward 😊

[@leorfink1]

@@lilcarttheoneandonly thank you for your kind words

[@lintecassidy206]

>I think there are as many genders as there are people but that trans people and queer people should be seen as a social class that deserves rights and dignity. I think that's the best formulation of this idea that I've seen, that goes so hard.

[@adrien2998]

“Justine was extremely gay” hits a little different with Shame out now

[@TheDevNell]

I wonder if Tiff Tumbles was also based on that other person.

[@crystalcoveseries]

@@TheDevNell I'm guessing Tiff still represents Blair White. The other person is Theryn, and while in Canceling Natalie did say that Theryn was at one time not accepting of non-binary genders she was able to persuade her otherwise when they met in person for the first time.

[@calitutkowski406]

Holy shit it does so bad

[@adrien2998]

crystalcoveseries Natalie did say on Twitter that Tiffany isn’t Blaire but is just supposed to represent self loathing trans women in general

[@tinseltina]

YES i agree

[@katevenhorst1723]

When Natalie’s level of high-brow sarcasm is so high people actually think she’s looking down on non-binary people, when in reality she’s holding the mirror up to society in the form of fantastical performance art on KZbin. Madam, I applaud you.

[@someinteresting]

Yes, I like that she's tacking all sides. We need more people that are able to make fun of whatever needs mocking.

[@nikolaibukharin8865]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHzLZ4WXaNSpiZY

[@Altitudes]

My take on the video is not just that the characters have conflicting ideas, but that the characters are struggling internally. We could read it as separate characters, or we could read it as one character's internal dialogue i.e. this is all Contrapoints' own struggle to understand herself. Maybe I'm projecting a little about my own insecurities but I've felt the conflicts from these positions. Feeling like you're a transmedicalist because you're arguing the biology, feeling like a hippie because you're telling people to just love one another (I loved when she started singing kumbaya at that point). When she says she loves catgirls and hates catgirls, I take this as the representation that we don't merely accept or reject narratives, we hold conflicting feelings towards them. We take the parts that are useful, and try to rid ourselves of the parts that aren't. As someone trying to become more educated and be some kind of ally, I've had arguments where I've wanted to scream "Look, idiot, there's real hard biological facts at play here" while also thoroughly rejecting the idea that biology can ever really explain human identity. As someone not trans, I don't expect to find a narrative that ever allows me to fully understand the issue. Not because I don't think it's valid, but because I don't even understand myself. The whole trans issue seems to hark back to the problems of identity that ought equally apply to all of us. I don't know what makes "me" me. I don't know if I'm the same person yesterday as I was today. I don't know if I'm hopelessly determined by a mechanistic universe and "me" is just an illusion. I can't fully define a chair let alone what man or a woman really is. My biggest frustration is that these aren't questions that apply just to LGBT folk, these are deep philosophical questions for all of us, ones that we don't expect a catch-all answer to. And yet we live in a society in which the failure to correctly answer the hardest questions of humanity is taken as a reason to treat poorly a chosen few. I think somewhere in typing this I might have gone off track, so if anyone ever makes it this far, I'll just conclude by saying I only love catgirls. No hate. Always end on a lighter note.

[@nikolaibukharin8865]

@@Altitudes maul

[@KD-ou2np]

@@Altitudes "we live in a society in which the failure to correctly answer the hardest questions of humanity is taken as a reason to treat poorly a chosen few" Beautiful, I think that really captures what is so wrong about the anti-trans movement from the edgy intellectual/gender critical side of it. And then of course we know that when we dig deeper all anti-trans, anti-nonbinary movments stem from reactionary fear, ignorance and learned disgust.

[@meredythwithay5187]

Everybody's gangsta till the non binary forest spirit with a glitter beard starts speaking in riddles

[@spirithawk6580]

Then they're just in love

[@randibrown2295]

*looks around* Dionysus?

[@thatONEmachine]

That was so fucking stupid...

[@Someguysayingsomething]

Pan?????

[@MEME-fd1nf]

randi brown LETS GET MISCHEVIOUS AND POLYAMOROUS. WINE AND WOMEN AND-

[@manamejeffbeezos]

It's a shame transtrender had to become an exclusionary term. We really missed out on the perfect word for a trans person who is just always on the ball nailing all the trends.

[@useroffline9999]

Trendercore is actually a thing now among young nonbinary tiktok people, among them the victims of kalvin garrah’s following. The (trans) kids are alright.

[@haggisa]

@@useroffline9999 Aww, that’s so nice to hear. It must take real strenght to reclaim a term created to mock, humiliatie and invalidate you, especially when you’re that young.

[@anitanielsen1061]

: O that’s a great usage!

[@Dark-fr3gk]

A trans person setting all the trends of new forms of gender performances!

[@heathenpotato]

Baltimore Maryland has definitely been to the 5th dimension

[@jaegs1935]

The DMT is strong with them

[@decepticonne]

when the mooooooon is in the seventh houuuuuuuse

[@choccymilk9821]

As a person who lives next to Baltimore, I can confirm. It disappeared a little while ago and we’ve just been pretending it still exists and everything is fine, while it is really not

[@EeveelutionForest]

@@choccymilk9821 As a person who lives _in_ Baltimore, I can confirm

[@skylargray2880]

Use to live there. Thankfully I moved

[@Cubehead666]

If stargender is a thing, will there be astro-terfs? / music plays

[@astrinymris9953]

ROTFLMAO!! You win the internet!!

[@WindspriteM]

What would Astro-Terfs reference here? Can you explain that

[@kriggitch.5855]

@@WindspriteM ​ Mulan Astroturf is a fake grass substance that is often used for sports arenas. 'Astro' is a word root that comes from Greek, meaning 'star'. A TERF is a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. It's a pun with a respectable number of layers.

[@Spunjji]

@@kriggitch.5855 Astroturfing is also a name for the art of manufacturing a false "grass-roots" perspective on an issue that is, in reality, just the sock-puppet of an existing power holder. So as well as being a violently delicious pun, it works on ALL THE LEVELS :D

[@WindspriteM]

@@kriggitch.5855 yeah, I knew what a term was, didn't know astro-turf Lol my auto-correct knows both of them now

[@duckietheduck]

people complaining about baltimore being a nonbinary stereotype are completely ignoring the two other characters sitting next to them

[@onlineoddballs3668]

So was Baltimore completely justified or were they wrong in some parts? Not gonna lie, Tiffany made more sense than Baltimore. not sure if that's a good thing. Also I'm new to this nonbinary stuff so if I irritate someone, well, sorry if I do.

[@ellebresych5282]

@@onlineoddballs3668 did you watch the whole thing?

[@onlineoddballs3668]

@@ellebresych5282 Yep.

[@enderwiggins8248]

Glaceson Fenton I’m curious why you think Tiffany made better points? As someone who’s coming to terms with their own a non-binary identity, I thought Baltimore made excellent points dissecting the hipocrisy of Tiffany’s transgender dichotomy. She couldn’t argue why her feelings were “more valid.” She saw her gender as a condition and not something to embrace. And in the end she resorted to name calling and verbal abuse because of her bigotry

[@ellebresych5282]

@@onlineoddballs3668 really? You didn't notice any of Tiffany's points being called out or discredited?

[@CaitieLou]

"Why do you think being transgender is all about hating yourself and hating your body?" This is the sort of thing I think whenever I see TERFs talking about how trans women can't be women because they haven't "experienced the trauma of growing up as a woman." Shouldn't the goal be to eliminate trauma as much as possible? And if we're defining womanhood by trauma experienced, what happens to the definition of womanhood if that trauma is eliminated? That's really a sad way of looking at womanhood, tbh. Trauma can be part of of the female experience, yes, but we shouldn't define ourselves by it.

[@Lovingmadjom]

Not only that but its very presumptuous- the trauma suffered by a black woman vs the trauma of a white woman are two totally different experiences, why should a trans woman’s trauma be excluded because cis women didnt experience it the same way?

[@semicolon.advocate]

right? i fucking hate the idea that the thing that makes me a woman is trauma. how depressing.

[@MrsBlack88]

As a cis woman I feel insulted that people who claim to be “feminists” assume that the defining characteristic of womanhood is pain and trauma brought on by men-in other words, defining womanhood around what men make of us.

[@ciarancooper394]

@Beautiful Jazz I know this is an old comment but you phrased the problem so perfectly.

[@GretaZ-dd3lu]

Why do you feel the need to disrespect women who disagree with you by calling them a misogynistic slur? If you believe the goal is to "eliminate trauma," how does using misogynistic slurs and spreading hatred of women eliminate trauma??

[@psychinteresting727]

I love that all of the characters had fully fledged arguments. Like, sometimes when someone makes a video on a certain subject, they make one of the characters have a super weak argument to make themselves look better. What I really appreciated about this was even Tiffany had a full stance, even if it was misguided. I like that that specific character was a transgender woman as well, I just think it was really well done.

[@enderwiggins8248]

I agree! And what I loved more is this distinction between portraying both sides equally and both sides fully. Some people only think discourse is proper when both sides are valued equally, but this leads to very stupid conversations if one side is clearly wrong, for example a “debate” between flat-earthers and scientists. But rather than make a caricature of Tiffany or make a stupid debate between *equal* sides, Natalie presents both sides *fully* and we can see for ourselves that the logical conclusion of a binarist gender perspective is bigotry and intolerance.

[@V2Blast]

It's sometimes called "steelmanning" an argument (finding the best form of the opponent's argument to test opposing opinions), as opposed to "strawmanning" (misrepresenting/poorly representing the opposing argument for the purpose of rejecting it).

[@yoavsnake]

+

[@jae5952]

I agree I felt drawn towards her argument at times instead of just knowing “oh this character has the bad opinion”

[@ashadeofnight]

absolutely that's what makes it great. Natalie is unafraid to give even the least sypathetic characters the strongest version of their argument

[@Woofwoof369]

Me forming arguments with myself in the shower just in case i have to win an argument fight

[@maeflower5108]

LOL, I'm glad I'm not the only one that does this.

[@opsoc777]

I've wasted SO much hot water in deep thought >

[@-junkered-5659]

God damn that’s relatable

[@alexmdr1739]

Lol I do the same thing.

[@AmyAberrant]

I’m glad it’s not just me doing this!

[@johnmccrae2932]

"As a centrist, I'm undecided" has to be the most hilariously accurate quote ever

[@sorryifoldcomment8596]

Agreed, it was perfect! Centrists are lazy enablers.

[@mianico04]

Help Humanity what do you mean?

[@v0id_d3m0n]

@@sorryifoldcomment8596 what if I say they're not? ... your username would have to agree

[@MoarteMorrison]

@@sorryifoldcomment8596 No. My political views aren't "lazy" having moderate views I can actually learn without losing my shit, and thinking for myself is far from lazy, lazy is when you go with the crowd and agree with whatever they say. No thanks. Right and left doesn't have to choose for me and force their agendas on me.

[@betterlatethannever4536]

@@MoarteMorrison You really think that no one has an agenda for "centrists"? You are not immune to propaganda, and one of the lies centrists are fed is a belief in their own impartiality. Read up on the Overton Window some time.

[@QuartzIsAnOxide]

"I pity you, because you don't think you're real unless a man in a lab coat signs a prescription pad, and I can't imagine what it's like to have so little confidence in your own reality." Ok you didn't have to call me out like that.

[@sophdog2564]

Can we talk about how Justine's breakdown about loving cat girls and being gay is just foreshadowing

[@jennahyser7245]

What is cat girls lol?

[@ilexdiapason]

@@jennahyser7245 girls who dress as cats

[@jennahyser7245]

@@ilexdiapason like think they’re actually cats like trans species 😂 lol

[@StigmataMartyrz]

@@jennahyser7245 what?? are you being sarcastic? but catgirls and catboys aren’t trans-species?? it’s a popular trope in anime and irl it just means you wear fake cat ear headbands, and says nyan.

[@jennahyser7245]

@@StigmataMartyrz no I really never heard of it. I didn’t know what it was so I was just making sure it wasn’t that. Idk I never heard of people dressing like cats except some vice video I saw awhile ago where all these girls lived together and they dressed like cats. Is that kind of what it is? kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXXMhpZtq9mtfKM

[@terryh.9238]

"as for how many genders there are, i'm gonna take the centrist route and say two and a half" so many great jokes in this one.

[@Chipiliro613]

'Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam)-also known as false equivalence, false compromise, [argument from] middle ground, equidistance fallacy, and the golden mean fallacy-is an informal fallacy which asserts that the truth must be found as a compromise between two opposite positions.' - Wiki the Pedia

[@Lycaon1765]

Non-binary/agender/genderqueer isn't a gender, it's a state of being, checkmate atheists.

[@cambriakilgannon12]

@@Lycaon1765 am I gonna get to tell my kids that I saw the KZbin video that defined modern trans philosophy when it first came out?!?

[@PerfectAlibi1]

There is only male and female, but people can be a mix of both. As for what pronoun people should go by, just what ever gender they feel most comfortable as. If someone is mentally somehow exactly 50-50, they should just look at their physical sex and just go by that, if you are truly 50-50, you shouldn't care what pronoun people use on you, so just to avoid confusion just go by your physical gender, it just makes life alot more easy ^^ The ultra rare cases where you are also physically exactly 50-50, which should maybe only happen once a few billion (though you probably wouldn't be also 50-50 in mind) Then you could use the "they" pronoun line.

[@cambriakilgannon12]

@@PerfectAlibi1 it's not quite that simple, you see. You're still trying to assign a "number" to one's sexuality.

[@The1Helleri]

You've not only mastered the utility of the Socratic dialogue. You've... Trans-cended it.

[@joleneonyoutube]

YOU WIN

[@TreeHairedGingerAle]

*_slow clap ------> standing ovation_*

[@mmmk1616]

Whoa

[@golem2246]

Oh no, the puns have begun.

[@duncansimpson9383]

YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHH

[@feelshowdy]

Back when I was closeted and a strict transmed, a genderfluid fandom friend told me this: "I don't want to be valid, [Name], I just want to be happy. I know that validation from strangers contributes to some people's happiness, but to me it really, really doesn't. What does contribute to my happiness is being able to just do what I want and not having to compromise on aspects of myself that ultimately don't harm anyone else." It put things into perspective for me.

[@SaladDongs]

While I agree with your friend, playing devil's advocate I would say then "So being genderfluid is essentially the same thing as the awareness of stereotypes and not wanting to conform to them, and so you find you stereotypical group that claims to defy stereotypes, like being goth or emo or even coming up with new genders just so you don't find yourself placed in some sort of box"

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

Reminds me of that comment saying "people have told me I'm valid so many times I'm feeling less like an enby and more like a bar code"

[@starstudios653]

@@SaladDongs nice try but thats not even what being goth or emo is about lmao

[@SaladDongs]

@@starstudios653 Nice try but you missed my point by 1000km

[@starstudios653]

@@SaladDongs I know that’s not your point dipshit I’m just pointing out you don’t know what the hell your talking about when it comes to either subject lol

[@louisemerian3073]

I need to adopt Baltimore's debate style. This is so peaceful.

[@cymraegpunk1420]

Need some drum and flute back up?

[@disastermidi1990]

hywel dda I do

[@RufusTheBaptist]

I’m currently in a debate with someone using Baltimore’s technique and it feels honestly so great to be so completely calm and just go ‘I wonder WHY etc.’

[@sorianrrapson]

I feel Baltimore was right lowkey

[@KlaasKlar1984]

@@RufusTheBaptist but you understand, that the whole point about baltimores technique is, that he is privileged as fck, right?

[@Cymricus]

"Do you think you can purchase acceptance through conformity" - most underrated line. We're all a little guilty of this

[@stariadreamtea]

I know, it was amazing. I really enjoyed that line.

[@fozziebean]

We're all trying to purchase acceptance through conformity to SOME extent, so it's a really important line to think about.

[@jvdhtm]

If nonconformity is the conformity, I always prefer to be the contrarian.

[@drpg7924]

Timestamp at 5:00 for those who want that delicious Baltimorian wisdom

[@breathless_siren]

Praise The Sun!

[@adrien2998]

I think that everyone who called this transphobic literally just read the title and didn’t watch a second of it

[@hat-eating-cthulu-goat3221]

Wait, people did that?

[@adrien2998]

Hat-Eating-Cthulu-Goat yeah I remember seeing a couple of people on twitter getting mad because she used the term “transtrender” which is mostly used by truscum folks. They obviously hadn’t seen the video lol

[@xenasBS]

She's arguing against enby people. Yes, it's a persona, but I get why it confuses people. Not everyone knows Tiffany Tumbles has been set up as a fridgebrained rainworm.

[@adrien2998]

ConspiracyTheoriesWithTea anyone with half a brain knows that Baltimore and Justine won the argument. It’s so obvious especially during the tea part that Tiffany is in the wrong

[@xenasBS]

@@adrien2998 You're assuming angry twitter has half a brain. Group mentality has been proven to lowel IQ, and although IQ is obviously a limited way of observing intelligence it still indicates that angry twitter is definitely dumber than the sum of its parts.

[@bpblitz]

"Natalie is enbyphobic! Just look at this video!" You mean the one where she depicts the enbyphobic person as the antagonist?

[@xKingsQueens]

@@rubyNuva this james person has been replying to every comment stating that Tiffany is the only person who makes sense lol

[@cxyj4y]

She said everyone is valid what do you mean

[@cantthinkofaname5046]

@@cxyj4yvalid in gender identity, not politics. Tiffany is unquestionably wrong, her arguments come from internalized transphobia, she wants to fit in, to the point where she becomes a mouthpiece for the society that actively makes her life harder

[@average-neco-arc-enjoyer]

Well technically since she is the main character she is the protagonist; just not a good one.

[@imogenimagine1328]

super super late reply but as an nb as soon as Baltimore started talking I was like ‘I want to be as iconic as this person’ like I love them SO much

[@tm7517]

Playing multiple characters, with distinct looks and different complex POV’s on gender identity and portraying each character with understanding and empathy while using the other characters to inspect/question their POV about gender identity was truly fantastic.

[@BigNothingMonsterMan]

Portraying each character with understanding and empathy? Please tell me you are being as sarcastic as the video was lol

[@alinefernandes4676]

You said everything

[@jakers141]

this is literally 10 years of tumblr community development in 30 minutes

[@charliekahn4205]

I'm betting this conversation happened at least 10,000 times on Tumblr throughout those ten years, and each time took this long.

[@user-id5yg9fc9k]

Can you explain please? I have never been on Tumblr before

[@JaysonHere]

@@user-id5yg9fc9k tumblr has a lot of people who are very into making deep philosophical arguments about everything - I think that’s the joke

[@Scar-jg4bn]

And nonbinary is just as "valid". 😂

[@kul2130]

​​@@JaysonHere also a lot of flags and terms came from tumblrs debates.

[@spookingtonvonhaunt7495]

Baltimore might be my new favourite Contra character, the way they talk is so mystical and mysterious, I feel like I'd meet them in a spooky forest and they'd give me magical life advice

[@Serpillard]

*Baltimore confirmed as Elden Ring NPC*

[@spookingtonvonhaunt7495]

Hell yeah I'm so here for that

[@themoustachelady2937]

They have cast a spell on me

[@spookingtonvonhaunt7495]

ME TOO

[@steele_heart77]

Basically same

[@davidleija4613]

When Justine declared her love for Tiffany and Tiffany denied her, like it broke my heart. Then I remembered that these are just characters played by the same person and i felt a lot better.

[@Lost_Gemini]

Still breaks my heart every time.

[@antoningilbert1615]

You just made me feel a lot better

[@katsmith471]

eh idk i’m watching this right after rewatching her “shame” video and um……….. i think she was definitely pulling from lived experience there

[@Alina_Schmidt]

Of course. I mean, what a love triangle.

[@applemask]

I'm not sure it had happened yet. It might be foreshadowing, or fear @@katsmith471

[@CharletteAndMo]

A video where a woman dresses in fancy outfits and talks to herself somehow has better romance subplots than most shows on TV

[@Biogrrrl]

Better character arcs, too

[@Catervarii]

THIS.

[@andreitarkovsky3214]

umm Orphan Black

[@ScorpionViper1001]

@Reg Eric What you wrote is called "projection"

[@Alecto44811]

man in drag*

[@JC-yy8iv]

Omg Baltimore's repeating of everyone's full name is such a genius comedic touch, it cracks me up every time!

[@nuthead8888]

Baltimore is everything and I WISH I had their level of chill when I answer people on my gender. Fun part is though that I am Muslim and from the Indian subcontinent so the word “Hijra” is my damn word!

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

They destroy tumbles easily they are a professional troll

[@evelynrose7490]

This post made me realize that I do this

[@RurouniIdoru]

I know I'm dating myself with this, but back in the day when we didn't use the term "social media" but instead we had a "blogosphere," there was a community question posed at Feministing (told you I was dating myself) that really stuck with me and has ever since: What makes you feel like your gender identity? And it stuck with me because I didn't know how to answer it. I'm a cis woman and I have trouble imagining myself any other way. And not for lack of trying: I've done a lot of internal interrogation of my feelings and my womanhood and ~what it all means to me~ (mostly because it just seems like a good idea to take inventory of that sort of thing), and I never come away with anything other than "woman." I just don't have any good reason for it. I love playing with androgyny in my aesthetic expression, and transgressing strictly defined gender roles, and there's plenty of experiences or realities attached to the idea of "womanhood" that I would gladly throw in the trash at the first given opportunity. At the end of the day, I'm a woman because I just am. There's no logic or reason to it, it's just A Thing That Is True About Me. I lucked out both by having one of the Two Officially Accepted Binary Genders, and by having the genitals that are assumed to go with it, so nobody questions it. Which is what you hit on in this video: There's no rationalization or reason for any of this, it all comes down to some weird nebulous ~feeling~ that you can't explain, but that you know is true. I nearly added Happy Pride Month before realizing there isn't a June 31st, so Happy Wrath Month, everyone.

[@emaresea]

"What makes you feel like your gender identity? " The answer I arrive at is that (A) I feel happy when I look in the mirror and see an image that conforms with my gender identity or receive affirmation from others that they see me as conforming with my gender identity, and (B) I feel unhappy when I look in the mirror and see an image that does not conform with my gender identity or receive affirmation from others that they don't see me as conforming with my gender identity. For example: Someone calls me "pretty", my fiance says I look like a doll, I admire my shape in a dress, I put on makeup and feel the end result is very feminine-looking = A feeling of happiness. On the flipside: Someone remarks on how big my feet are, I notice how wide my shoulders look in an outfit, I put on something shapeless and think it makes me look like a linebacker or like I have no curves, someone points out that I have visible body hair = A feeling of unhappiness. --Cis-het woman here, if it matters

[@giselle9230]

I’m pretty sure the only one dating themselves here is Contra

[@jestempies]

As a philosopher put it and I misquote, "I don't feel like a woman, and I don't feel like a man. I just feel like shit." I don't care what gender I am. I wear pants because they have pockets and cover my balls, and because I would probably have to explain skirts to people if I wore them. I have a beard because shaving is boring. I find even the exploration of "what it means to be a man" demeaning. I identify as a parent to my daughters, and as a lover and a friend to my love. I do some of the jobs men do because I'm in a slightly better shape and technical mind than my wife. She does some of the jobs men do because I don't like to lead, make important decisions, or interact with people. If we were gendered the other way around I don't think anything would change much.

[@justpassingby953]

@Simon András Péter if you understand that trans people need to be their identities to feel fulfilled/to be themselves. Then why do you hate them? It seems that you understand that being trans is simply something you are. So why hate people for it? Seems a bit unecessary to me, since you seem to understand that hating trans people doesnt that change the fact that trans people exist. So why put more negativity out into the world, doesnt help you and doesnt help others either.

[@smadak]

I'm a cis woman and I cannot come up with an answer for this question. I keep thinking about it. I think... I feel like a woman because I've always been treated as one and I have no idea what it feels like to be anything else. It's an interesting question.

[@someonekenobi]

This was a wholeass movie. I've never felt so invested in four people played by the same person

[@lizbethperez7052]

Holy balls her editing is so good that I forgot theres not actually 3 people in a room talking to each other

[@Chipiliro613]

Wait.....there wasn't?

[@ShinFahima]

The make-up is so good!

[@mmmk1616]

Hells yeah!

[@horizonanadyomene]

i can't even imagine how much work she puts into these videos omfg

[@icygirl337_4]

Garbage Matts are fucking amazing like that

[@isakgirhammar4034]

I just want to thank you for draging me out of the conservative rabbit hole on youtube. I was really deep but then I youtube recommended one of your videos to me and after that it slowly replaced all the right leaning videos with "leftist" (for the lack of another word) videos deconstructing arguments from the right. Thank you again, it really made me a better person all around.

[@magister06]

What a beautiful comment !

[@elegantdisarray]

This comment makes me insanely happy. 😊

[@TheBoeBoeBa]

As a fellow ex-conservative, I tell you, your problem wasn't your meaningless conservative opinion on politics or culture that you can't really affect or change anyways in a meaningful way. You spend too much time on the internet and youtube. How did you fell down the conservative rabbit hole in the first place? And a few youtube algorithm changes to prop up certain leftist channels to recommend to you was all it took to change your lifeview.... very sad, it probaly could've been any other ideology and it still would've changed your mind. Honestly, just get outside and find out what is truly interesting and important to you. Anyways, your comment has reminded me I should leave this site for good and that I have a internet addiction, all of you online leftwingers or rightwingers should try to quit internet for a while and find some irl marxist group if you're that into leftism.

[@Luzmaldita577]

@@TheBoeBoeBa exactly..

[@user-xc4pb1wt4l]

tsk fug same I was in a lot of rightwing/natsoc groupchats on politigram until I found contra points

[@redpaintedwoman]

"I pity you because you don't think you're real until a man in a lab coat signs a prescription pad. And I can't imagine what it must be like to have so little confidence in your own reality." Ouch. That hit home. I'm not trans, but I'm desperately fighting for a mental health diagnosis right now and the struggle to believe in your own perception and the struggle to be heard and believed is very real. Fantastic video, Natalie.

[@meganwood9184]

I did this too in the beginning of my recovery and it was so painful to deal with. I have spent years doubting myself because I didn't have a 'real problem' and thinking the only thing to make it myself feel better is a piece of paper. It's really liberating to be more compassionate and empathetic to ourselves. Natalie is a treasure!!!!

[@juliagulia9224]

Whoa! And your comment really hit home for me - thank you! Whether it's the mental health diagnosis I already have or just things about me - big or little, I rely way to much on the validation of other people to make my experience (and myself) feel real. I've been working on this for a while, but I still have a lot of work to do. Why do I put the opinion of the few people in my life who don't think depression is real (or don't think xyz is real) ABOVE my own reality? Another person's belief/opinion should never be more important or more valid TO ME than my own experience. My own experience is all I have - I should trust it a bit more. I am valid, my experience is valid, my beliefs are valid independent of other people's opinions. Wow. Thank you!

[@redpaintedwoman]

@@juliagulia9224 I suppose it's always easier to listen to others, because they and their voices feel more real sometimes - especially if you're already struggling with your own identitiy and your own feelings. I'm glad you could take something empowering out of it! I'm very grateful for these honest videos Natalie makes, because in being so open about the insecurities she faces, it becomes easier to be honest to myself, too. Like she's looking into a mirror and I'm peeking over her shoulder.

[@soniamendez-rodriguez7884]

because years of education + the fact that everyone has they're own version of reality would make it hard to live in a society. if you feel different, you're different but you're also not (bc ive yet to meet someone who feels okay). i'm sorry to hear you're feeling confused with who to trust, even though i study psychology, its still a persons perspective of people which equally changes with the times but all of society is built on arbitrary rules that the majority choose and that's only reasons society works. if we all agreed that every one point of view was correct how would we accomplish our goals? at some point, someone's view would oppose someone else's and what then? don't believe your own perception, even the sanest people cannot see the 'truth' they can just see their perspective. i hope you find a professional who listens.

[@gateauxq4604]

@redpaintedwoman so many of us have been there! Always stand up for yourself, never back down if something feels off, and if you can find medical professionals you feel you can trust. Keep fighting-you are valid, your mental health is valid, and it will improve your life no matter what pessimists and chuds May say to you. Take care.

[@kingbubbles9461]

I love how you went to the most extravagant new age non-binary specifically to show even they are valid, rather than going with an androgynous person. People are much more likely to accept the latter and it shows backbone to show that the former is also valid

[@shanegrele]

When Jackie said "If I've never seen my brain, how do I know I even have a brain?" I felt that.

[@christine9615]

Lol. I read your comment right before she said that. Perfect timming

[@zoetv2170]

absolutely same, fam xddd

[@pommiebears]

Shane Grele I had an MRI and all they found was an IOU from God....lol.

[@idkwhatthisisanymore7840]

Adolf Trump and you have the most antichrist name - "adolf trump" 😂

[@kennykeating5243]

@Adolf Trump it's easy to deduce you have a brain based off circumstantial evidence. And you can see a brain, if you look for pictures online or a book. Where as, there's NO evidence to even suggest there is a god. At least Chaos theory has a mathematical process that makes sense. You can write it down, you make graphs, etc. Point being, it's not a joke to point out the logical fallacies of the religious and question why it is they believe at all. I know you think atheists are trolls but they're posing real questions that are not being answered in any convincing way.

[@solskelton8071]

Came back here to watch contra talk herself into realizing shes gay

[@user1138]

Haha me too! While watching "Shame" I immediately thought of the 2nd half of this video.

[@LuluTheCorgi]

@Oh Man yes

[@toffletorte]

Horngry harold she’s a lesbian

[@deiyaerin7273]

@Horngry uh oh smooth brain alert 🚨

[@deiyaerin7273]

​@Horngry aww cute :) I remember being this ignorant and uneducated. You can do better, I believe in you dude!

[@SMP1993]

Jackie Jackson sitting eating a red, white, and blue popsicle refusing to interject or fact-check whilst the guests on her show argue about psychology, gender, and science is the best impersonation of Dave Rubin in internet history.

[@samwallaceart288]

SMP 1993 - reminds me of Shoe0nHead; minutes of silent fidgeting before finally cutting in with “SHIT that’s a good point.”

[@SMP1993]

SamWallace Art that's an apt comparison as well lol.

[@roseclouds5838]

I am Jackie Jackson and I’m trying not to be biased going into this debate because I haven’t heard the other side yet. Maybe they’ll make good points as to why “non-binary” attack helicopter people exist

[@hcneyfae]

rewatching this 3 years later and man i forgot how influential this vid was in helping me realise how flawed my transmed views were. not only does it align transness with conservative views that being trans is a mental illness, but trying to present transness as squeaky and appealing to the cis. this fits so well with your recent vid, minorities never got recognition from society by playing by their rules

[@ERG11]

Same here! I just re-watch this video after her new video! And I agree with you! Amazing comment ❤

[@Denidrakes69]

I have a 7yo son who has declared himself a boy since he could speak. I also have a 16yo non binary kid. I hate it that I'd believed my son to be "more trans" than my 16 yo. It's harder for me to understand non binary - I guess because it's kind of based on what the person isn't, as opposed to what they are. I know it's a flawed view, and although this helps, I wish I could understand my 16yo in the same way I understand my 7yo..

[@stirpiano]

This video changed my entire worldview around transness and I'm so grateful for its existence.

[@zesty6781]

This video and CopHatesMoe changed my life for the better and i owe them everything

[@i_sniff_blue9569]

This might be the first time I've had to process two valid points in an argument while wishing I were a popsicle. Maybe.

[@BothHands1]

Omfg this had me laughing for a full minute

[@cediviannareeda4305]

Do you sell cross stiches of this quote?

[@squibitybeebop]

I really don’t see how people think Natalie is insensitive towards nonbinary people. I’m nonbinary and I find her videos absolutely brilliant. She directly acknowledges and validates nonbinary people in most of her videos. I absolutely love her.

[@mariacillan9668]

Same. I finally accepted myself as gender fluid when I watched this. And I was in the middle of falling into Kalvin's self-hate trap too

[@tobithetabby6376]

@@mariacillan9668 I knew there was a reason why I felt distanced from Kalvin's content

[@SickOfItAll1988]

they don't watch the whole videos; they stop after reading the title and write an enraged paragraph somewhere

[@Velkhana22]

Also nonbinary, and also adored this character. They made nothing but good points, and Natalie handed the whole situation well in my eyes.

[@squibitybeebop]

Serena Egger absolutely! i love Baltimore!

[@ascohn]

"Maybe we should stop getting so caught up in proving our validity to ourselves that we end up being horribly cruel to other people." Q.E.D. *mic drop*

[@Graemyr]

Love this line. I think it applies to most people, not just those in the trans community. It seems that under the harsh light of social media, everyone is trying to validate themselves to their social spheres. In turn, they sacrifice the nuance of their character and degrade others who think differently. We should all practice some more empathy. *Namaste ;)*

[@Juuhazan_]

It ties in very well to Tiffany's last video appearance. Internalized bigotry becomes the alibi for externalized bigotry. A form of projection, if you will.

[@djn48]

​@@Graemyr Hell yes, social media is like a school playground at lunchtime, except on a much larger scale. It is also much, much more mean-spirited because everyone is geographically-diverse and relatively anonymous. "Log on to Twitter and ramp up the drama to 100%" should be the mantra for all post-millennial self-medication addicts.

[@AvaValComedy]

This was comforting, distressing, thought-provoking, mind-numbing, enlightening and confusing, but most of all highly intelligent and subversive. Natalie is spectacular.

[@edahiguajardo9015]

The use of japanese drums and flutes was brilliant for it is very appropiate in any kind of duel.

[@WailFin]

It also harkens back to Kabuki theater, which was characterized by larger-than-life, exaggerated melodrama and distinctively stylized (to the point of being pretty outlandish at times) costuming and makeup.

[@Nirax3]

yep also the combination with slightly terrifying tone of voice / mimic in an intellectual dialogue reminds me of Brian Reitzell's score for Hannibal

[@TatianaRacheva]

That was the only interesting thing about this video :/ Maybe I’m just fatigued by these arguments that I’ve heard so much.

[@jasonnung2645]

WailFin furthermore, women were banned from performing in the kabuki theatre throughout premodern Japan, and so all female parts were played by men. So Japanese theatre has a long history of gender nonconforming presentation.

[@TatianaRacheva]

Those men were very gender-conforming, though! They were playing stereotypical men or stereotypical women. If you really think about it, making parallels with kabuki is subversive on multiple levels.

[@kriss581]

To quote Adventure Times: "People get built different. We don't need to figure it out. We just need to respect it."

[@criminokrimino5846]

I'm a transman who has always leaned toward the 'transmedicalist' theories, and I think it's because I'm coming from an extremely unaccepting family. Watching this, I'm realizing that I struggle to empathize with alternative gendered people because it makes me feel like they're working against my attempts to show my family that I'm normal and real and a /man/ But I'm not somehow more normal than them because I call myself a man and I feel good presenting very masculine. Forcing myself to live by this rigid explanation of what it is to be trans, especially at the expense of other people who are trying to live their lives just as much as I am, is just... destroying me inside. To all my alt gendered homies, even though people like me have probably treated you like trash in the past, please know that it's coming from a place of serious pain. It's going to take a lot of work for us to understand each other. For me, this video was a good start.

[@iamphoenixfire]

You are so loved. - an alt gendered homie

[@delgryphon6633]

I'm a transmasc nonbinary person, so I really appreciated reading your comment. I hope your journey of communication and acceptance with your family gets easier over time. I have experienced much the same and some close family I've had to distance myself from entirely due to toxic stresses caused. So I can empathize with that fear and pain strongly. Take care, and thank you for deciding to open up your heart and mind more to those who aren't binary trans.

[@ConvincingPeople]

Crimino Krimino Thank you. I understand and sympathise, and your apology is accepted and sincerely appreciated.

[@goblindude4242]

this made my cry so much. thank you very very much for this.

[@chironOwlglass]

I appreciate your apology, but the defense that your parents are unaccepting and that you're in pain...just doesn't do it. My parents hate me more than anything, and I don't go around telling total strangers that their very existence is ruining my life, which is something I've heard LOTS of truscum say on r/ftmmen. WE'RE IN PAIN TOO. Do you think my conservative religious parents are MORE happy that I'm an agender freak than that I'm simply a binary trans man, the son they always wanted? Enbies hurt too, but we don't devote a ton of energy and time to convincing the general public that you're a fraud, that you're everything that's wrong with the world. No one has EVER been as hateful, cruel, invalidating, and emotionally abusive to me as truscum have. If you think the fact that you're in pain is an excuse to recreate the very abuse you've received, you're a child, and you need to grow up.

[@matto2121]

The fact that she created this extreme example of the conservatives idea of a 'transtrender' and manages to make us take their side. I entered this video agreeing with Tiffany, and left understanding how close minded I was and how valid baltimore is.

[@cxyj4y]

@@JamesGallagher90 Baltimore isn't real you terf

[@petscopkid]

@@JamesGallagher90 okay then, prove it

[@stealthis]

@@JamesGallagher90 lmao. Baltimore doesn't need a internal struggle for validation

[@GretaZ-dd3lu]

*He

[@sffb8295]

@@JamesGallagher90 It's 2022. Are we really going to sit here crying over a fictional character winning an argument simply because they don't fit your idea of a "good trans"?

[@SweetCake8]

Its easy to forget that these people are just characters played by Natalie. I keep getting hyped with every comeback as if this is a live debate😅

[@coscorrodrift]

Lmao same here, it's like the SHAPE OF THEIR SKULLS changed hahahahaha but for real, the voice tone and everything makes it so different, so good

[@Chipiliro613]

Jackie Jackson struggling to open an ice pop is my new aesthetic

[@leitmotif7268]

Steven Killeen a Rocket pop, it’s even better lmao

[@skeetsmcgrew3282]

I want it as a gif for every profile of everything

[@r_bear]

Literally loudly deepthroating America while opining the fact that she doesn't have a brain Kinda sorta spot on

[@Elagabalus711]

Based on the colors she was trying out America's mouth feel

[@nataliaquiroga4015]

@@r_bear imagine youtubers disecting this video like they do every avengers movie

[@adammulvey]

The attempt to prove you love your own children is as degrading as it is futile... Wow. These videos really are amazing, aren't they?

[@skeetsmcgrew3282]

Yeah that kinda hit hard

[@auwtomoton]

🔥 🔥 🔥

[@CannibalCommunist]

This was really helpful for me as a cis guy with some trans/nonbinary friends/family. Thanks so much for content like this. The deep dive here was incredibly helpful and insightful.

[@AdamLH96]

i came back to watch this video again. honestly a lot of people hated on this video bc they saw baltimore maryland as an offensive stereotype, but as a nonbinary person i totally fell in love with this character. They remain unshakable in the face of bigotry and succinctly bring down Tiffany's arguents, and by the end is shown to be the unsung winner. Yes, baltimore is a stereotype but there ARE nonbinary people who are like that, and baltimore demonstrates that there is nothing wrong with that! this video helped kind of battle the truscum in me. I think secretly me and some other nonbinary people are self concious about accidentally presenting as this type of person, but baltimore marylant counters these feelings with a "so what?". And it makes me go yeah, so what!

[@noahmorris1015]

yes yes yes! a thousand times yes. hearing somebody defend the veracity of nb people on the internet? a rare and delightful experience. and if i might humbly add on- i'm nonbinary, i don't look or act like them, but by god that's the destination.

[@hevalemin6520]

I assumed it was supposed to be a vaguely Jeffrey Marsh impression bc of the super gentle whispery voice and the hand gestures.

[@handsofchange11111]

I'm an enby, and I've watched all of Contra's videos multiple times, this one included. I absolutely love our boi Baltimore Maryland, for all the reasons you stated. I stan this absolute monarch. They're unshakeable, and they remain civil and collected even in the face of bigotry and ignorance. I love them. And that sentence at the end of the Freedom Report, "if my existence is a statement, it's a statement to the society we live in, and not to who I am." We are forced into boxes and chains throughout our lives. Any sort of deviancy is seen as an illness. Embracing who we are deep down and loving ourselves despite being told that we're sick and that there's something innately wrong with us takes a lot of work and effort. Seeing someone else do that, even if it's just a fictional character that appeared on the first half of a KZbin video... it makes me happy. It makes me want to scoff at the people who refuse to understand and say "excuse my beauty" and walk away grinning.

[@cataloupe3914]

I only new abt transgender-ness through kalvin garah , and this video changed my whole perspective! :)

[@aks799]

Genevieve Hill that’s great! Don’t wanna be *that* person, but “transgender-ness” isn’t usually how people refer to the trans community. Just saying “transgender people” is fine.

[@ericagreene1579]

I can't believe how contrapoints created this masterpiece debating but also defending enby identities just to have a bunch of people cancel her for being ' - phobic'. I'm so sick of cancel culture.

[@no_peace]

She's wonderful fuck everybody

[@joecrollard9934]

She'll be fine. I bet a crazy video is coming.. She's just done with Twitter.

[@izseanz]

canceled

[@simonsharp9075]

@Rachel Fourie who ruined what? Here's a video on transgender with over 1 million views with largely positive comments. So what happened? On some other corner the Internet some foolish internetz drama happened and some peopke got caught up in it. So what? Move on with life.

[@amalnasser4118]

NM AT uhh I’m not too sure about that because a majority of friends have no issue with her criticizing hyper woke places..

[@jazwhoaskedforthis]

“Do you think you can purchase acceptance through conformity?” gIRL

[@bonthebunnycat667]

T o t a l l y O b l i t e r a t e d

[@punkgrl325]

You can though...

[@jazwhoaskedforthis]

butterstix 24 they don’t accept YOU they accept your act. Not the same thing.

[@Mmm_Kay]

Shit hits hard

[@SolluxAmpora]

Jaz Helton T H E T R U T H!!!

[@ellieveganphilly-7335]

“Your honor in my defense, it IS a glitter beard.” Lol. brilliant.

[@elizabethtangora4353]

“It’s interesting that you think that” is such a debate-judo power move.

[@rematmos7551]

Elizabeth Tangora huh. How so?

[@Bojoschannel]

Socrates move

[@user-hi4xi2rp8j]

Especially if they said something that contradicts themselves

[@jiffylou98]

Some men make straw men in their arguments. Contrapoints makes straw queens.

[@dudders91]

This is Dostoevsky levels of character debate written by someone who has taken great care to understand the arguments of both sides.

[@lemmonboy6459]

It pains me to think of the amount of effort put into the script of this video Thank god for Natalie

[@dsquarehead0175]

Is the host a parody of Dave Rubin?

[@theengine]

We truly do not deserve it.

[@jackstrawful]

Not even just both sides, but many sides

[@Matematik-np9uy]

I love that Justine’s realisation that she doesn’t know how to reconcile being a lesbian with being a trans woman basically predicted Natalie’s own a few months later

[@nicoshaughnessy6476]

I really appreciate that you addressed how nonbinary identities can simultaneously be valid alone and valid as a stepping stone to a binary trans identity; I feel like so many people who work to debunk the "trender" rhetoric fall into the trap of either implying that no nonbinary people use it to get to binary trans, or that all of them eventually do.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

i've always been irked by gender norms so i'll never "evolve" into a binary trans because the concept doesn't even work in my mind.

[@ireneb2173]

I think is similar to bisexuality if you think about it. Some people (like myself) said they were bi because they still didn't accepted being gay and were experimenting and trying to understand themselves, but there are also bi people who are really bisexual out there.

[@iamphoenixfire]

Exactly! So many people I know have come out as one thing as a stepping stone when others have not. PLENTY of trans folks I know come out as nonbinary or genderqueer before coming out as a binary gender, or vice versa. Like, my best friend is a trans dude who first came out as a man, then bigender, then a man, and now exists very soldly as a genderqueer man. He's been on T for awhile now. But he doesn't really want top surgery. I don't want T, not at all. But GOD can I not wait until I get top surgery. And I'm nonbinary/genderqueer. The spaces we as trans folks exist in are complicated.

[@itdoesntgetbetter1408]

What?

[@ichbinben.]

@@iamphoenixfire For me it was similar. I came out as a binary trans guy 4 years ago and started transitioning (T and top surgery). I knew from the beginning that I didn't want bottom surgery and I always liked feminine stuff, but I definitely knew that I wasn't a woman, so I did everything for people not to see me as one. I only recently started dressing more androgynously again and wearing make-up and nailpolish. I sometimes feel very masculine (and attached to the label "man") and sometimes very feminine (but NEVER attached to the label "woman") and other times I couldn't care less about any of that shit. I thought about adopting the label "genderfluid", but for now I feel like I'm way too attached to the label "man" to call myself anything other than that, so I refer to myself as a gender non-conforming trans man (I'm also gay, so it's a minority-hattrick XD). So you're right, trans identity is much more complicated than just an either/or.

[@Purpelspy]

“as for how many genders there are, i’m gonna take the centrist route and say- 2 and a half” i can’t believe someone hasn’t hired you as a script writer yet

[@nerdwisdomyo9563]

I think it’s really funny how much contrapoints makes fun of centrists

[@S.D.323]

as a follower of schrodinger I say the answer is 2 and 3

[@notsosadbart6343]

Every time Baltimore said Tiffany Tumbles it made me question my reality more and slip further into the void

[@aboz8649]

In... or out? (;

[@ohjeezriles]

fucking same

[@jamesmcgarity2985]

This is literally the most eye-opening, informative, and cleverly-made video I have ever seen on this subject. The fact that it's also HILARIOUS AF blows my mind. Superbly, utterly, totally GENIUS.

[@marimbasolo8306]

Justine: "Oh come on, I'm not gay" *freeze frame* "Justine was extremely gay"

[@spacetypo]

"if i've never seen my brain, how do i know if i even have a brain?" my GPA felt that

[@jinslif8188]

Schrodinger's brain

[@nikolaibukharin8865]

This applies to most of contrapoints viewers

[@nikolaibukharin8865]

Marxism will win, contrapoints won

[@nikolaibukharin8865]

1-0 for marxism

[@MollyWat]

Ok but Baltimore needs to be a recurring character so bad. I’d absolutely love to see more of them.

[@johnpjones182]

What would happen if Baltimore met Foppington?

[@superrinusblick4222]

the makeup probably takes far too long. that is probably the same for all the other people in the sketch too.

[@danopticon]

I can do depth and substance and all of that… but I _love_ that purple ombré!!

[@Notsoshady4891]

I've been coming back to this video for two years, for Baltimore.

[@Orphealerote]

I'm NB, still thinkin about Baltimore Maryland to this day, a monarch, an absolute icon.

[@GibusWearingMann]

As someone with autism, Baltimore's argument about dysphoria really resonated with me. I've been formally diagnosed with autism, but my brain has never been scanned (for that purpose; I have had problems with sleep apnea and seizures), and the only way for me to really demonstrate my autism is through my words and my actions. Forgive me if this is an overreach, but the way I see it, transgenderedness works in much the same way. It happens in the brain, and only you can directly observe it. Other people only have your words and actions to go on, and that's okay. Almost everyone I've met believes my autism. I hope more people in the future believe your gender(s).

[@SketiHoops]

Yeesss, this is nearly the EXACT feeling I had when I watched, but with my ADHD; you just put it into words much better than I could have, lmao. Now that I'm sort of questioning my gender and just why I feel so wrong all the time, it's sort of frustrating/interesting to see the difference in how people react when I tell them about how I think I have a neurological disorder/possibly gender dysphoria. The idea of both are rejected at first but it seems that people come around to the ADHD stuff quicker and more fully.

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

there are a lot of trans and autistic ppl that have made the same comparison

[@LiquidPr1d3]

yaaaaaaaaaaaasssss

[@c3r6s9]

as an autistic nonbinary lesbian with adhd, so much of my existence depends on people taking my word for it on stuff that i don't even have the words to explain. in the end i just have to hope they believe me and do what i want them to do. it's all the same, unfortunately. i don't think you're overreaching

[@four9613]

thechucknorrisofNSMB gender is different than medical conditions is the tldr. autism is different than medical conditions too, but in a different way. it’s not incredibly similar to mental medical issues as it’s more of a “different brain” scenario than inherently personally painful one (although it can be im not trying to speak for autistic people). adhd, on the other hand, is a medical condition that identifies in certain ways. it’s not a socially necessitated category that compromises identity that exists outside of the realm of medicine. i.e society doesn’t expect people to have a mental illness and, for most people with it, it doesn’t compromise a portion of their identity that they want other people to see or be validated for. gender on the other hand, has so many other factors in flux in its composition that it’s impossible to medically reduce it down to a single variable, a single diagnostic.

[@NaraMouse101]

I love Baltimore's beard/eyelashes combo. There is something almost mystical about them and their unflappability in the face of Tiffany's visceral disgust.

[@ScorpionViper1001]

I certainly hope to seem them more often :)

[@BriarRH]

Enby new age mistic lovely person

[@Rose-ef2cm]

I aspire to be like Baltimore. I know I’ll be coming back to this video to calm down and rationalize my thoughts while dealing with a bigot from now on. It gets so exhausting trying to justify your existence to everyone, but Baltimore does it with such grace. I love them omg.

[@ndawn90]

Agreed. I hardcore stan Baltimore. Confidence and intelligence is very attractive, and that glitter beard was *on point*! More Baltimore, Contramommy!

[@v.sandrone4268]

I want Contra beard and eyelash merch.

[@markog1999]

I'm loving the normalisation of 15 minute intros containing a pagan-god-entity and a full blown mock-debate.

[@deathboi3998]

Blasphemous TechnoTheology? Im in

[@UncleverCarapace]

I mean. I'm not a fan of wondering whether she's about to come out as a transmed and """only two""" type.

[@whotoldyouthisurl]

a trans woman DESTROYS three-act structure with flair and panache

[@georgeparkins777]

@@UncleverCarapace I'm pretty sure she vaporized the truscum position pretty thoroughly. She's not any of the characters we see here; she's using Tiffany Tumbles and Justine to depict the debate, not just voice her own opinions. Remember that Tiffany Tumbles, while she plays the role of a more experienced transwoman who makes some good points towards the end, is more or less the opposite of Natalie in a lot of ways.

[@crishealingvtuber8626]

To be fair, this time the god entity is based on Jesus to some degree

[@DiscoGoesOn5067]

"My name is ~Baltimore~😊." "Baltimore what? 🤨🙄 " "😌✨️~Baltimore Maryland.~✨️😌" "I'm sorry, 😐 your name is _Baltimore Maryland???_ 🤨🤨" I rewatch this video constantly for this line delivery alone.

[@T1J]

Baltimore is definitely my favorite character

[@flamebunny6511]

😂 same

[@michaelmcmullen2186]

I want her wig :D

[@joel230182]

Nah, Tiffany is the coolest, most rational of them all

[@patario5977]

@@joel230182 well, not really lol

[@joel230182]

@@patario5977 now that you put it that way, I guess you're right.

[@turtlezinthesky]

Jackie loudly struggling with that popsicle is breaking me. I love it.

[@TheCstar07]

Had to pause the video for a good five minutes just to laugh at that!

[@TheCstar07]

@@Allison_Hart 😂

[@82dallasar]

My favorite part of the whole damn video 🤣🤣🤣

[@fockingreat1125]

Ikr fuck that was good

[@MountSilky252]

This video is both hilarious and insightful. I've never had any struggles with gender, but this video reminds me of growing up black without being "black enough" for other people. People are so busy shifting goalposts and defining things arbitrarily that they trap themselves in their incessant need to tell you how to be yourself...when they really shouldn't give a shit.

[@rexrad9735]

Well said!

[@deuxconsprod]

And the worst part of it all is... All this infighting about who counts as "a real woman" or as "black enough" ends up giving more credence and importance than they deserve to the labels and arbitrary categories which are then used to justify discrimination against and the oppression of those same marginalized groups.

[@alandgomez5905]

Lol not enough of this or too much of that. I think a lot of us can relate.

[@ayanna6327]

I relate sooo much to this. People become so woke that they end up getting sleep deprived and boxing themselves and everyone around them in all over again. It's frustrating.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

Man that sounds awful having to constantly justify your colour,

[@cyclogenesis3179]

unbelievable this video came out 4 years ago. thinking about where i am now in my transition compared to 4 years ago when i identified as a cishet guy, this video just explains everything i couldn't put words to then (and still can't now). thanks for being so eloquent and for speaking so descriptively about these things, Natalie. you're the realest

[@theavengingnarwhal5581]

“I can sense the vibrations of you pain across the room, and I pity you, Tiffany Tumbles. I pity you, because you don’t think you’re real unless a man in a lab coat signs a prescription pad, and I can’t imagine what it must be like to have so little confidence in your own reality.” A raw ass line if I ever heard one.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

I almost forgot about that line, in a strange way it has a very Buddhist sense of acceptance while at the same time seems to reflect the idea of transmedicalism (something I didn't know about until Natalie's "Canceling" video) in saying that you aren't valid without someone saying so.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

@@maxncheese8548 I've considered that same thing for so long that it wasn't until I finally realized everything I'd questioned for over half my life on who and what I was finally clicked into place. I'd made a similar comment on Council of Geeks' "When KZbinrs Come Out" video about how 2020 seemed to be the year I realized my sexuality and gender

[@SassafrasTee7366]

A beautiful roast if I ever heard one

[@NeonCicada]

🤯

[@michaeld9682]

A quote fit for an asylum

[@tommylakindasorta3068]

All of your videos are enlightening, but as a nerdy/wimpy cis male hetero person I actually empathized with some of the points made here because I think they apply to people beyond the trans community. I think there are similar factors at play in the way "manly" men look down on people like me. Like I'm some sort of threat to the entire societal construct of masculinity.

[@rachelbuckley6202]

I absolutely feel this comment. I was raised by a woman who largely rejected femininity. My mom hated make up, dresses, jewelry, perfume, doing her hair all of it. I learned zero about make-up, how to walk in heels, how to color or keep my own hair, or any of that. At 51, I struggle wanting to look pretty and feminine and often feel utterly un-equipped for it, I have taught myself to do my nails, I try to do make up but I look in the mirror and hate what I see because I don't know how. You add to this being outspoken and intellectual and other than being a mother, I am not sure what about me is "feminine." I hate how I was raised to see "femininity," and I resent my mother not attempting even to help me find my own expression of it, instead of saddling me with her's.

[@dusty3913]

I lived this. I rejected the role I felt being imposed on me-through the desire to fit in. But, there was so much inner turmoil...for years.

[@sydneyzane7434]

I’m sorry you’ve experienced that. Another reason gender normative bullshit needs to be undermined. You’re valid regardless, and people need to mind their own fucking business. Other people existing in a way that’s different from how another person exists has no influence on the validity and identity of the passerby. People are so consumed by their own self doubt and hatred that they project their anger on others and try to push them down instead of bringing themselves up. So infuriating.

[@bryanarchy5824]

To be fair, you *are* a threat to the entire societal construct of masculinity. Your existence undermines everything they believe to be important with regards to manliness; because what's more manly than rebelling, and what's bigger and better to rebel against that the entire concept of masculinity.

[@Lafemmefutile]

Rachel Buckley what you are describing is performing outward femininity only in its appearance based expression. Féminité is more than wearing heels and putting lipstick. It’s in the way you use your emotional intelligence (aka intuition) to connect/understand/empathize on a higher level (than men) to other people. It is in your practice of nurturing, caring (and some would even add submitting - but we don’t like these “some”). Maybe as a woman you think a lot about how to cultivate balance, beauty, peacefulness, Joy etc... All these are feminine attributes. This is why we have men called feminine because they practice this relational approach instead of domination/emotional detachment that masculinity teaches men to adopt. So I were you, I wouldn’t doubt my femininity so fast. Femininity isn’t the caricature that it is made to be today, it is a practice in our mind and why not in our body.

[@jazzyroly]

“Do you think you can purchase acceptance through conformity? because that is not freedom.” That was powerful

[@greenmurphy]

Its only powerful if you conflate Freedom with licence.

[@KangMinseok]

Acceptance is earned; until it is earned, the maximum one can expect is tolerance

[@AliceDiableaux]

If you for some reason can't help but stand out like a sore thumb when you're just being yourself, sometimes conformity can be freedom, because it grants anonimity. It does become very exhausting after a while though.

[@SSelkie3]

@Shufei gender is a social construct, and doesnt exist on a binary, but a spectrum.

[@SSelkie3]

@Shufei "tendency to tyranny" genetic fallacy, strawman

[@scptime1188]

twitter: "omg natalie is such a truscum transmedicalist nbphobe!1!1!1!1!1!11!" this video: literally denouncing transmedicalism and uplifting nb people

[@Ethan-ee8rv]

Yeah Twitter users are insane. This video really made me think and sorta helped me see things from a better viewpoint. Plus the ending was hilarious. 😂

[@kemanebel9018]

Sadly, that's the problem with sarcasm as humour, some people will take you literally 😅😅

[@wamatt2476]

"Your Honor, In my defense, it is a glitter beard" is maybe the funniest thing I've ever heard on this channel. Oh my God.

[@cheetaking243]

·Because Science ·Because Personal Identity ·Because Social Roles / Performance ✔It's Complicated, and I'm glad that Natalie explored all of these nuances

[@cormano64]

I'm legit glad all these aspects got a good look into them. Because from what I've read so far, there's so many angles to this that it really deserves deep research.

[@setniessesed6896]

I always felt it was aspects of all three. Also suspect the science and personal identity parts are intertwined, but in a way that's too complex for us to understand yet (maybe ever). Like she says, gay people exist, even though we don't have some sort of "explanation" for sexual orientation either.

[@StrangeworldEU]

Notably absent was the actual viewpoint of personal identity. But since both transmedicalism and perfromative gender theory got trashed, I assume this was just the figurative loser's party?

[@begrackled]

@@setniessesed6896 That was kind of the takeaway I got from the Aesthetic, too.

[@themoustachelady2937]

what she says is actually not contradictory, science supports the fact that not all trans people experience Gender Dysphoria, There are Non Binary people who experience gender Dysphoria, Trans Medicalists are in the wrong here. People including trans people like Tiffany Tumbles misunderstanding what gender dysphoria means contribute to the problem. Gender Dysphoria is a discomfort and distress with ones gender presentation, it's not about having a male or female brain neither is it like having a tumor in one's brain.

[@keyvanacosta8216]

"Congratulations: you're the winner, that was some excellent free speech" such a funny way of saying "ok, ok, simmer down!"

[@danb4282]

“Do you think you can purchase freedom through conformity?” Damn it Natalie, stop making me examine myself!

[@silver4831]

It's literally how society works though. We temper ourselves to fit in .

[@kstar1489]

@@silver4831 and society changes over time and is different between places on what the standards are for us to conform to. If those requirements are unnecessarily harmful and stifling we should change them, no?

[@silver4831]

@inacore Sure it's fucked but what can we do about it?

[@silver4831]

@@kstar1489 How? I can't just kick and scream at employers to change. At the end of the day I got to work and conform.

[@yukow0w601]

Wow. I'm a trans woman who unfortunately fell into the trap of hating "transtrenders" because it made people take me less seriously. The points in this video, especially the "man in a lab coat" part definitely got me. Thank you so much for proving me wrong.

[@facelessdrone]

Same, this video is what woke me up to my own internalized prejudices

[@silver4831]

But what you said is literally true. Cis people take trans people less seriously now younger people are claiming to be "non binary".

[@iloveyoulawliet179]

@@silver4831 yeah, but why do they do that? It's not NB people's fault that some people don't take them seriously.

[@silver4831]

@@iloveyoulawliet179 It's because there are indeed trans tenders. They are real. If you have no dysphoria you aren't trans I'm afraid. It's not something "cool" you can just put on and off like a hat.

[@silver4831]

@@joao-c1l Because many use condictory terms. This confuses most people to no end. Like saying you are a non binary lesbian.

[@vampirebicth]

justine's anti-lesbian nails are an incredible detail

[@happyfacercs]

Lily Fenster holy shit I never noticed that before great catch

[@estevaoucceli7060]

what's the timestamp? i couldn't find it

[@PuffiKartoffel]

@@estevaoucceli7060 you can see her hand at 14:38

[@kissfan7]

I'm sorry, but what the hell are "anti-lesbian nails"? Signed, Confused cis gay guy

[@estevaoucceli7060]

@@kissfan7 it's lesbian nails but with a inverted pattern..? you didn't need to be that rude

[@MolecularMachine]

The desperate struggle to open a popsicle with several-inch-long nails has brightened my day immensely.

[@antonielnes9683]

I am a trans man and was a transmedicalist when lots of previously transmed creators came out saying transmedicalism wasn't right. This made sense, but I wasn't able to change my viewpoint. I asked for guidance and someone pointed me towards this video, and it genuinely changed me so much for the better. Thank you, Natalie.

[@seandoesnpcshit]

Glad you changed, welcome!

[@DUWANGlai_kangyi]

Proud of you, dude

[@Ethan-ee8rv]

I personally still align with a lot of transmed views. I will admit I used to be pretty toxic when I was a 17/18 year old trans kid who barely passed and was just miserable. I am autistic so I view the world in black and white and I find it very hard to see the bigger picture. For example, I believe my gender dysphoria is a medical condition. I think transmedicalism has been sort of slandered a bit because of the actions of a few. At it’s core, it’s simply just the belief that gender dysphoria is a medical condition (which makes sense to me as medical treatment is available to those who want/can access it). I think dysphoria is helpful in explaining how being trans isn’t a choice.

[@mango78910]

When Tiffany opened her eyes to reveal those very biological eyes I felt true terror, what a queen Natalie.

[@kutemo7461]

i love ur profile pic!

[@Visual_Lies]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5XZfpKmh8uofK8

[@cortexavery1324]

Cis man here : thanks for filling my ignorance (and sometimes stupidity) with good informations and logic. And thanks for making me (and others) discover more about a world I sadly do not see at all in my real life. (I don't get out often...) Just something I meant to say for some time now. You help me not beeing a fool when talking about that subject. And damn have I been a fool in previous similar situations...

[@jakeodell-o9k]

What I love is that Tiffany Tumbles embodies every single thought I've had on the subject of gender, so when she asks a question, I have the same question! I'm just a philosophical guy using reason and logic, so it there must be some sort of biological or social *cause*, right? What is it? Help me Tiffany! Making me question my own need for a causal explanation, and maybe considering a change in focus, is why I am grateful for these videos.

[@cortexavery1324]

@@jakeodell-o9k Don't you formulate my feelings better than I do !! ^^ Contrapoints surely knows somehow where our questions and positions comes from and tackles it in the (close to) perfect way through this somewhat despicable (let's admit it) but very human character. I'd say philosophy tube is extremely good at it too.

[@HollowGolem]

@@jakeodell-o9k It's the strength of the Dialectic method of argumentation. Remember, Nat is trained in philosophy. I think she was an adjunct professor for a year or so.

[@greggor07]

Same here. Until a year ago or so, I was so ignorant about the subject that at the time I couldn't even tell you what non binary, or cisgender, a trans woman or any of those terms really meant. For example: I thought that a trans woman meant the exact opposite of what it means. That did not however stop me from commenting on these topics and making a fool of myself...at best, while doing actual harm at worst. That was really horrible since normally I tend not to speak on subjects I don't know enough about and I totally support gay rights. Thing is, I have to admit that transgender people really did use to gross me out. I don't know why. I guess if I had to describe it, I'd use a parallel to the "uncanny valley" type of phenomenon. It's a repulsive feeling that people often experience when faced with particularly human like androids. Contrapoints blew my mind from the first video I've ever seen and has for the most part cured me from my bigotry.

[@cortexavery1324]

​@@greggor07 Feeling understood and I like that you precise that outside of beeing a fool we can, through our ignorance, really hurt people. One point though, I'd not use the uncanney valley analogy if I were you, the uncanney valley is disturbing because the realism makes us see the unrealistic details even more. What makes us feel weird is not the realism in itself, but the lack of it within the realism. So in video game a realistic face will create no uncanney valley situation but when the lips moves (as we're not quite there yet for it be realistic) then it provocks the weird feeling of the uncanney valey. Do you see my point ? It seems to me it's not a correct analogy.

[@sirensongss]

How much footage is there of Natalie just eating firecracker popsicles as absentmindedly as possible

[@banessuperbrutalmetalfunti2561]

Hours and hours.

[@decepticonne]

you'll have to suscribe to the onlyfans to know ;/

[@godofdun]

Not enough

[@michaeltoastman]

Firecracker popsicles? I've only ever heard them called bombpops?

[@Madjam-cd2fk]

RELEASE THE TAPES