Trayvon Martin, 10 Years Later | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@Psychopolitica]

Hey everybody, could you do us a favor? If you subscribe to the podcast, please check your feed to see if this episode is there. We've just moved hosting providers (Bloggingheads -> Substack) and want to make sure there are no technical issues. Thanks!

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

Just checked and I'm seeing it in my feed.

[@JordiMonCompanys]

All good on Apple Podcasts. What I see there but not here is the links mentioned in the convo, like the NYT retrospect. Thay appear in the Apple Podcast episode notes but not in the "descriptive section" of the YT video, like Glenn says.

[@michaelmbutler]

@@JordiMonCompanysseems to still be the case. I don’t see a link in the “descriptive section” here either.

[@billwood6065]

No

[@stevensica89]

Well. it turned up on KZbinTV if that is what you are concerned with.

[@daveg5857]

The justice system is not supposed to respond to public pressure. The fact that people think it should is a big problem. That's mob justice.

[@Jay-jb2vr]

*If not, then law enforcement loses support from the public* 💯

[@jamesbizs]

@@Jay-jb2vr wrong.

[@daveg5857]

@@Jay-jb2vr Law enforcement support already hit rock bottom and is on its way back up, imo. I'm concerned about the courts carrying out mob justice.

[@Jay-jb2vr]

@jamesbizs Go back to your basement, you don't understand simple logic

[@paulhue86]

Public pressure is why the Junkie George cops were charged & convicted.

[@6teezkid]

I only just learned (from a documentary) that the so-called girlfriend of Trayvon Martin (Diamond Eugene) was actually another person (sought by and coached as a witness for and by the Prosecution) in George Zimmerman’s trial. That goes waaaay beyond BRADY! They not only withheld information from Zimmerman’s defense, but actually put a “stand-in” to testify that it was her on the phone during the very moment when Trayvon & George had their altercation. I don’t believe anything was done about it…meaning, the Prosecutors weren’t charged with defrauding the Justice system and obstruction of Justice. George Zimmerman was in a trial for his life, being charged with murder! And they put in a stand-in full of lies. Lies that got rioters all heated up. Lies that caused them to create mayhem across America. And whites have “white privilege?”

[@baalbezub6848]

No, nothing was done. Zimmerman sued everyone involved, Crump, Martin’s parents, prosecutors, all based on evidence uncovered in the book and then documentary. The judge wouldn’t even entertain it.

[@aidananstey9848]

I saw that documentary also, the "girlfriend" was that wannabe IG model and it was her cousin that testified.

[@KainTheDamned]

My God, I just discovered this channel, this is fantastic. Not only is this conversation fascinating but I feel so relaxed listening to it. It's like listening into the conversation of two friends having a deep personal conversation. Amazing...

[@chrislastname1994]

The fact that they were "persuaded" to arrest the guy should terrify people.

[@jzajzz]

Zimmerman should have been arrested on the spot ... You murder someone ..you get arrested.. we can't go by your words. You deal with the justice system. But you should at least be arrested.

[@chrislastname1994]

@jzajzz that's not how the system works.

[@disgusted3191]

So are you saying that anyone who kills someone in self-defense should be arrested? In all cases, because there is a death, there should be an arrest? Just curious, does that go for a black person who kills someone in self-defense?

[@jzajzz]

@@disgusted3191 yes you should be arrested..if not .every murderer will claim self defense... Let's skip the race war for now....do you think Zimmerman would not be arrested if it was a 13 yr old girl of any race?

[@robertryan1663]

I discovered the Glenn show at the time of the George Floyd killing. Been listening ever since. I've learned mainstream media not only distorts racial issues, but virtually everything they cover. Very much appreciate the long-overdue education. Anyone who can needs to support honest independent journalism.

[@bengold7942]

I assume Fox News counts

[@DeatrahBello]

@@bengold7942🙄

[@timberelburke]

Thank you gentlemen for standing up and spreading the truth. May God bless you.

[@michellemartinezjunco5144]

I’m watching your show from a year ago and just watched the The Trevon Hosx!! ❤️🥰 So love you two and your intellectual honesty and integrity! ❤️❤️

[@glennmitchell9107]

To John McWhorter's point, it isn't that people have been led to believe false narratives, it's that people are expected to fall in line with narratives, false or not. People are somehow obligated to nod their heads, repeat the claim, and vote the party ticket. A free man's instincts should be to seek the counterargument, investigate primary sources, engage in debate, and suspect establishment narratives.

[@boischristian]

John seriously mischaracterization what happened. George Zimmerman is 5’7 185. Trayvon Martin was 5’11 158. A nearly 30 pound advantage. Also George followed an innocent person, initiated contact after being told not to and killed him. Zimmerman has a clear history of gun violence. In 2013, Zimmerman was accused of point a gun at his then girlfriend. And then in 2015 arrest for domestic violence. Zimmerman has had a long history and violent behavior similar to that night 10 years ago. The primary issue people had with the case was if there was no public outcry, no one would have investigated the case.

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@boischristian The difference in age is also significant. I am much heavier than my younger self, but I am also much less fit than my younger self. If weight was the deciding factor Zimmerman wouldn't have been the one on his back getting his head pounded into the ground.

[@boischristian]

@@glennmitchell9107 Thanks for acknowledging my comment! Traditionally fighting (boxing, UFC, and wrestling) happens by weight class not age. Implying weight can be an advantage in fights and that 30 lbs is significant. Zimmerman had taken MMA classes leading up to the altercation. But most importantly Zimmerman initiated contact. I’m 5’7 185 also, if I started an alternation with a minor that lead to me killing that person my belief is that regardless of who was winning the fight at the time there should be consequences for me.

[@glennmitchell9107]

@@boischristian The consequences to you if you had lost that fight might be that you would be the dead one.

[@boischristian]

@@glennmitchell9107 I’m confused, are you arguing that Zimmerman did initial contact with Trayvon?

[@baalbezub6848]

The Trayvon Martin case is/was the one of the greatest examples of media deception we will ever see.

[@stevensica89]

@@DouglasHarding-hu1jc And anything portraying Israel as an innocent victim.

[@overcomerbtboj]

The trayvon martin case is what started it all and it has never let up since

[@heatherduncan4945]

Oh don't forget the Ferguson debacle

[@stevensica89]

No. NOTHING CANEVER OME CLOSE to the obvious pro-Israel biases of the USA media. It's been going on for decades, with no let up in sight. Martin and Floyd are amateur footnotes by comparison.

[@oso1248]

The Floyd fairytale blows it completely out of the water.

[@jayneteske1963]

This is such an intelligent conversation. And, Scott Joplin is terrific! He lifts my spirit.

[@RoberinoSERE]

Travon Martin’s death is a tragedy on several fronts but the exploitation by the race hustling industry is the worst as it drives a wedge of grievance deeper in the black community. Thank God for you two in bringing reason and logic to a world gone mad. Have either of you ever met Dr. Thomas Sowell as he has been ignored in academia by the left until a recent renaissance which i applaud along with you two great minds. Thank you for your honesty and integrity. ❤️❤️

[@rinesolberg-fy9br]

Have you watched the documentary that has come out recently?

[@DeatrahBello]

I am 60 years old and up until two years ago. I had never heard the name Thomas Sowell. To me he is up there with Einstein. Well no let me correct that he is way above Einstein. The way his brain works is just beautiful. The way he explains things makes it so easy to follow. He doesn’t use words that most people cannot understand which I’m sure he could Because let’s face it he’s a genius but he doesn’t and that’s what makes him so relatable. Take care. Thank you for your comment.

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

Race bustling industry? So we are race hustlers when we speak out on our people and the injustices we are exposed to?

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

Thomas Sowell is another one of your favorite people who give white people some confidence and reasons to let the real side of you come out. Well, what do you expect in America? A country based on racism, hate, and white patriarchy.

[@jimm.1013]

One of the things that strikes me about the Trayvon Martin incident as well as the Michael Brown and the George Floyd incidents is that these incidents are not about bigoted laws or ordinances, not about racist mayors or governors. They are about one person's actions against another person. The episodes are fundamentally different than the reasons for protest 40 or 50 years ago when there were Jim Crow laws and segregated schools and lunch counters.

[@buckchile614]

When those instances start to add up, and the numbers point to a 3x likelihood of getting killed based on race-- shows an unconscious bias at play. My only problem is: when are blacks males going to learn that resisting arrest increases the chances of death exponentially? Live to fight another day...

[@bryanmurray2723]

There is a whole lot of history that debunks your claim. Look up the killing of Emmit Till and or Mary Turner or countless others.

[@oceantree5000]

Excellent point.

[@heewee6608]

But how does poverty or even a explicit Jim crow law equal mass gun violence in inner cities. Tyshawn lee the 12 years old was killed by 3 black men then one of em put out a cigarette on the boys face what does racism have to do with that

[@Gnofg]

One can make the argument that this is he result of years of racism has made young black kids appear to be criminal. Here is an example of how society looks at black males. In the nineties when cocaine and crack was ravaging the inner city society's response was "lock them up". Today we have white rural kids and suburban kids O'ding on opioids and the response is "we need to help them" this is a tragedy. Why isn't it "lock them up".?

[@Keith-ze6dd]

Glenn Loury (for whom I have massive respect) says exactly what I've thought (as a white man) for years. Having read grand jury testimony, and done my own research for both Trayvon Martin's case, and Michael Brown's, among others, I now completely distrust any mainstream narrative that is reported. And over time, it has made me cynical and questioning of the "black" motivation when it embraces obvious falsehoods. If what he is saying is that it will be harmful not just to the country, but to black people in the long run, I completely agree with him. In fact, by now it should be obvious to everyone.

[@robertmstarr9028]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your truthfulness and careful consideration in presenting facts (and sometimes exposing fiction). I've just discovered The Glenn Show. I'll continue to watch and listen.

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

Now I know what I thought was true🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️🤦🏿‍♂️

[@brianjoyce9040]

Two of the better minds for commentary on issues needing clarity. Thx Glen. Thx John

[@DarthQueefious]

The Zimmerman trial was my redpill moment. I was off work ill and watched the entire trial (first trial I ever watched). Not only did the trial expose prior lies and truly abhorrent manipulations, at the end of each day I was shocked at how the media reported on the trial itself, and I'm talking mainstream media not just dregs like TYT (who I was subbed to for many years until my eyes were opened by their trial 'coverage') Eventually that shock turned to disgust and here we are today, the media as a whole hasn't learnt a thing, infact in most ways, if not in all ways, it's worse. Today, they don't even deserve my contempt

[@honestjohn6418]

This is exactly the moment that I went from firmly on the left to seeing the left for what it is. No better than the right, in fact often worse. Prior to the Trayvon narrative collapse, I thought Faux News was propaganda unique to the lying, evil right wing and TYT was my favourite KZbin channel and I spent an hour explaining to my dad about how bad the racism problem was in America. Then the case publicly unraveled and the left and media not only refused to amend the record and apologise for getting it wrong, they doubled down and the BLM revolution began its hugely successful conquest of the West. I’m now pretty right wing with regards to identity politics and who I would vote for in the privacy of the ballot box. Quite simply, once I saw how terrible the left and the mainstream media was on the Trayvon case, I started to question everything the left was telling me and realised, from the gender wage gap to racism, there was A LOT of lying going on. And they were lying in a successful attempt at a cultural revolution, not lying to help the underdog, the poor and hungry. Their cultural revolution was an anti white male, anti liberal, anti science, anti history, anti Enlightenment, anti Western Trojan horse we’ve now invited into every institution in the West. That realisation began with the collapse of the, Trayvon was an angelic baby, shot by a white racist for wearing a hoodie and eating Skittles whilst black, lie.

[@amorfati4927]

Yeah. Within reason you have to actually watch a trial for yourself instead of watching recaps of it. Sometimes you can’t even watch it on certain networks because even though they have almost all of it live they will talk over extremely important parts that can be incriminating for the narrative the network is trying to push.

[@bubbag8895]

News media literally edited the 911 recording to make it seem as racial as possible

[@tupacalypse88]

I have a very similar story to this.

[@onceagain6184]

Zimmerman should be in prison for what he did!

[@bandoheme]

Thank you guys! You have a new fan. Keep it up - good for me as I agree a lot and I’m uncomfortable a little which is a good sign in my book. That’s the zone where real learning and persuasion tales place. Kudos!

[@dltomi7146]

I’m very fortunate i found you gentlemen. Rational discussion is rare.

[@BlindJustice]

Thank you for having these conversations and sharing them with the world. I found you today by listening to the Jordan Peterson channel. I deeply enjoy the poise, contemplation, and genuine responses and discourses you have and share.

[@oliverjackson2594]

What a treat to see a glimpse of John being a Dad

[@RG001100]

The phone ringtone being the classic phone ringing is also a super Dad thing, imo.

[@AFringedGentian]

He is such a great Dad. I admire and respect him as an intellectual, but I love him as a Dad.

[@jorgegallo3261]

So amazing to see two highly intelligent Black men being so objective, and not follow the accepted propaganda.

[@gmcq8623]

Thank you for such considered conversation. So sad that for reasons of prejudice, money or enforcing echo chambers, people are willing to hold on to false narratives, rather than free themselves by looking for the truth.

[@sarahlu7797]

Your channel just happened to show up on my feed. I truly enjoy your channel ❤

[@kenward1310]

A thoughtful discussion, as always; enjoyed the Joplin segment at the end as well.

[@erynlasgalen1949]

I sought out and purchased the book. I had missed your earlier two-parter on the Trayvon Martin case and just watched them as well. It is amazing how much one can learn from the 'unsavory' Right that will never be mentioned in mainstream media. Of course one will have to confirm independently, but it's the act of suppression that troubles me the most.

[@joshuaharrison8599]

I’m watching this from UK 🇬🇧 . Much love. I really enjoyed your conversation. You guys are integral, wise and strong men. I really pray your voices are heard in America. There are a lot of well meaning people getting caught up in this racial identity stuff perpetuated by lies. It stops genuine progress from happening and is corruptive when it comes to living with and helping one another. Please continue to have these talks. I’m praying God emboldens you both and that his grace and protection cover you as you speak truth whatever the cost. As long as you are truthful and righteous in your motivations and thinking, no plan against you will prosper.

[@marlow769]

I was living just a few miles from Sanford, FL and the entire backstory of that situation never made it to national news and much of the national reaction had too much to do with that current administration’s distain for gun rights in this country.

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

What was the backstory?

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

Make sure you're not lying about it.

[@Demonico-j7x]

@@clearvizionmedia1151 I assume he's talking about the string of break & enters that were predominantly committed by young black men and Zimmerman's next door neighbour being a victim of one of those attacks.

[@clearvizionmedia1151]

@@Demonico-j7x So that's a reason to attack a 16 year old? Assume he's doing crime? That is what most of you think about us anyway. Like white people don't do crime at all? Keep that mess over there. Same excuse that has been used since I can remember. The white man stole a race of people for his purposes, and you want to talk about that? Wow!!! 😯😯😯😯

[@joaniem3817]

I just stumbled upon y’all and enjoyed the show, so I subscribed. 👍

[@mthoodstyle]

I love your conversations. How thrilling that you both got a sit down with JBP! Those were also excellent conversations.

[@ondolite3789]

School of Grift. When will you wake up.

[@patchadams4me]

I just discovered this channel today. I subscribed. I have mad respect for you for standing up for the truth regardless of the race, creed or narrative that tries to hide or destroy it.

[@ChickVicious237]

My 5 year old son is a huge fan of Joplin's works, I'm using it to encourage him to learn piano. Ragtime was always my favorite genre to play when learning as a child

[@katherinegermain2540]

Listening to you to two is always enlightening and therapeutic! Thank you!

[@ClintByrne]

great conversation today. It really is important to hear your voices and perspectives

[@claudaniella]

This is a wonderful conversation. I have subscribed. Thank you.

[@Mik3xcellence]

I love your talks with John!!

[@swiftwindturning]

Excellent. Appreciate your guys' perspectives.

[@Asptuber]

That last ten minutes about Scott Joplin! I grew up in a Nordic country in the 1970-ies with a father who played piano; Chopin, Beethoven and Joplin. I had *no idea* Joplin was black. To me he was just American. Later as a very non-sociable teen I somehow never stumbled on the fact of his skin tone, or just never found it salient. You tend to not be _that_ interested in the music you've heard your parents play a lot, so later I was mostly interested in how you can hear Joplin's influence on Gerschwin or Bernstein. (Funnily enough I had read about the musical theory bit that McWhorter so elegantly summed up - but I had never put it together as "the American Chopin" - which is so perfect. Three or four year old me would absolutely agree with that, I would ask my dad for Beethoven or Mozart instead of that "pianist-y stuff").

[@cristinaegas]

How intresting M. Loury and M. McWorther, thank you for open my mind..people should rethink this..Thank you both so much !!

[@fsilber330]

I remember a 98 year-old Eubie Blake performing on Saturday Night Live 40 to 45 years ago. During the early part of his career he and Scott Joplin were contemporaries. From his interviews, I got the feeling Blake thought Joplin composed good music, but said he played piano like a child -- mechanically without subtlety. Well, I guess it's amazing Joplin was as good as he was in the ways he was that good -- considering how much of it he had to do all on his own.

[@0ddsman]

I love your show, Glenn & while I love all the guests, I think I'm most fond of the biweekly John McWhorter episodes. Anyway, keep it up guys, and thanks!!

[@worsethanjoerogan8061]

Glenn's conversation with Jordan Peterson really inspired me. He bluntly admitted he had substance abuse problems and yet still managed to succeed in academia. Got me back in the saddle after I screwed up.

[@tupacalypse88]

Glad your doing good and stay strong my friend had the same struggle myself in my 20's

[@SovereignStatesman]

That's like saying "Arnold managed to succeed in sports despite steroid-use." He NEEDED the substances to succeed, which is an insult to those of us who did it naturally.

[@GnarlyBolt]

I love the history at the end. Thank you guys

[@8elionadvancing884]

Nothing has hurt our country and our ppl more than the idea that white and black skin makes the American people 2 different races. The truth is we have been intermarrying here for hundreds of years. Everyone who lives here is mixed but the powers that be want us to look at one another on the surface and see ourselves as separate so they can use us against each other. My grankids are all mixed and im glad and i hope going forward we can dispense with the white and black labels. We share borders, language, culture and genetics. We are one race, the American race. We have to stop this way of thinking. Its done so much harm to the people and the country.

[@tomysons9768]

Loved the music education at the end!! What a nice treat.

[@Jebe_Noyon]

There is a fatigue in the rest of us with this group of people that will lead to a massive backlash. It’s only a matter of time

[@mariejane1567]

Why would there be a fatigue? you mean like slavery fatigue?

[@joeysforza]

Really thankful for you two!!!

[@usx06240]

One small correction. You can tell by the door chime that Zimmerman was already out if his car and probably 20 feet away from the car when he was told they "didn't need him to do that". He made a loop back to the car and was confronted by Martin when he ( Martin) doubled back for a fight.

[@serafine666]

Yes. To expand slightly, the dispatcher asked him where Martin was and Zimmerman responded to the question by exiting his vehicle and trying to find the answer. The dispatcher noticed weather sounds, asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and said "sir we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman said "okay" and started back towards his car and was then ambushed by Martin. This was one of the specific lines of criticism that the prosecution tried to float, that Zimmerman had disobeyed police commands (the dispatcher had no authority to give commands, as he later would point out on the stand).

[@bradlee2594]

@@serafine666 - Mostly correct. The relationship between points in time and physical points is incredibly important, yet nearly no one understands this sufficiently. 4 minutes elapsed from the time Trayvon started running (away from the infamous "T" sidewalk intersection) and the time the violence began (at the same "T"). That "T" was some 125+ feet from Zimmerman's vehicle. There is about 90 seconds of time that is unexplained as to where Zimmerman was. That is far more problematic for the pro-Trayvon side of the argument, despite their disagreement. Why? Because the evidence supports, not contradicts Zimmerman - and the opposite is true of the pro-Trayvon argument.

[@serafine666]

@@bradlee2594 I'm aware of all that. It remains appalling to me that arrest and prosecution can be driven by a screeching mob rather than the evidence at hand.

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@serafine666 He had every right to defend himself against someone who was stalking him, ask your self why was it OK for a grown man to stock a child even after the police told him not to do so? So what you're saying is that is wasn't right for TRAYVON to be in fear for his life, when the other guy had a weapon, he should of never PRUSED him it's his on fault that he stocked awhile and got his ass beat by that child..... DID U NOT SEE AND HEAR ALL THE EVIDENCE IN THE TRIAL? THE ONLY REASON THAT DUDE GOT OFF IS CUZ HIS DAD WAS A JUDGE AND IS EXTREMELY RACIST, the system is fixed to offend and punish blacks any way they see fit!

[@TiesOfZip]

John that moment with your girls was awesome. Thanks for just being yourself in these

[@honestjohn6418]

I can’t believe John wrote for The Root! That’s like Sowell writing for Mother Jones 😹😹🤗

[@slickrick8046]

@Honest John John is a flaming liberal.

[@honestjohn6418]

@@slickrick8046 yes but he’s most certainly not a black radical victimologist and The Root is the magazine read by my hardcore black nationalist and “woe is me, 400 years of grinding oppression and we still not free” BLM victimologist friends.

[@honestjohn6418]

@Chip Belori no criticism. I’m just surprised as I would be if MSNBC had Charles C Cooke and Victor Davis Hanson on the payroll. That would make MSNBC a better outfit but it’s an unlikely relationship

[@slickrick8046]

@@honestjohn6418 The Root is a black feminist liberal publication. John has evolved some but he once fit right in.

[@8elionadvancing884]

You guys are very fair and honest. Subscribed ❤

[@rodneychristian9834]

Agreed. Gilbert is a troubling figure. However, the evidence found in his research on the Trayvon Martin case is pretty overwhelming. It'll be interesting how the civil case brought by Zimmerman plays out.

[@windycityliz7711]

I believe the judge has dismissed that lawsuit.

[@bradlee2594]

Yes, the case was dismissed. It is interesting that the judge stated there can be no finding of fraud if it is "inadequately" stated in the complaint. While true, it is also interesting not much else has been said. If the claims are frivolous or in and of themselves false, it is VERY interesting NO ONE has counter-sued Zimmerman or attempted to bring suit against Joel Gilbert who is the one that discovered and created a documentary revealing the evidence that Zimmerman claimed in his suit. Very interesting.

[@tupacalypse88]

​@@bradlee2594 has anyone made any type of debunking I haven't been able to find any

[@bhz8947]

John: “Would it have been worth my time to watch that panel discussion? After all, life is short.” Glenn: “Yes, because [five-minute-long explanation].” John: “How about now?”

[@juliocorrea2552]

He was instructed by the police dispatcher not to get out of the vehicle n engage. This incident would have gone very different had Zimmerman listened to the dispatcher and not volunteered to be a “victim” of this larger, stronger young man, even tho in my book a gun is a hell of an equalizer.

[@bradlee2594]

He was not instructed by the police dispatcher to not get out of his vehicle. Zimmerman was long out of his vehicle when the dispatcher said, "we don't need you to do that", meaning we don't need you to follow. Zimmerman then agreed with the dispatcher and stopped running. The (false) narrative that Zimmerman did not listen to the dispatcher is largely why people can't wrap their heads around Zimmerman's innocence. This is a crucial detail, and most get it wrong. The correct understanding should have been known to the public the day Zimmerman's phone call recording with the dispatcher was released. The media failed. And now we have an ignorant public that has resulted in unnecessary added racial tension that is now into it's eleventh year.

[@juliocorrea2552]

@@bradlee2594 ok, but the same point still exists, had he waited on police, this would not have occurred. You can’t go around confronting people who you find suspicious. Call the cops and let them handle it. Glen presents this scenario where the larger, stronger Trevon was overpowering Zimmerman, he wasn’t scary enough for Zimmerman not to confront him, and once again a gun is a hell of an equalizer. There’s no way around Zimmerman being a volunteer “victim” here.

[@pdumpsterful]

@@juliocorrea2552 Trayvon confronted Zimmerman. He was looking for trouble

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@pdumpsterful Just hush at this point

[@okaro6595]

No he was not. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_killing_of_Trayvon_Martin 7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Martin is running. 7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman responds with, "Yes." Dispatcher: "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman: "OK." Note the OK, he acknowledged it an stopped following. He was already out of the car at the moment. There is no law that you must stay in your car when a black man is nearby. 7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know Martin's location. .. 7:16:11 - First 9-1-1 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[17] 7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 9-1-1 call.[18] The location of Zimmerman at 7:11:59 was within about 100 feet same as during the fight. The distance from where Zimmerman left his truck and where Martin's father lives can be walked in two minutes and ran on one. Yet there is four minutes between when Zimmerman stopped following Martin and the fight. Zimmerman went to the side street and was returning to his truck. Martin on the other hand went back to confront Zimmerman. Your argument is essentially victim blaming. It is same as blaming a woman who went at night to a park and was attacked.

[@seasidesue816]

Love Scott Joplin! I’ve tried to play a couple of his songs. Not easy, but fun 😊👍

[@karllieber9824]

“With all due respect to those 4 people…” who have done little more than contribute to the decline and misery in the lives of American blacks in the last 50 years, almost as if it were a business plan. Oh, right; it is literally a part of their respective business plans.

[@bengold7942]

Obama? Really? Gimme a break.

[@karllieber9824]

@@bengold7942 Really? Yes, really. Real world evidence shows American blacks as a population (especially the poor and working class) were demonstrably worse off because of Obama’s presidency compared to prior trends and all those trends had remarkable, even historic improvements under Trump especially considering Trump only had ~3 years in office before Covid ruined the economy for small businesses & the working class. Obama’s presidency was nothing more than the destructiveness of a “community organizer” gone national.

[@bengold7942]

@@karllieber9824 And who set the economy on an upward trajectory after the 2008 crash? Trump certainly helped, but it was by no means his sole doing that made the economy so good during his first 3 years. And apparently his handling of covid was bad enough to lose him re-election when he was practitioner coasting to it.

[@karllieber9824]

@@bengold7942 After 2008 the economy had nowhere to go but up and couldn’t go up any slower than it did. A toy monkey with no batteries would have had better results than Obama’s WH. I notice you hadn’t defended his record for making the lives of American blacks decidedly worse with his “community organizer” tactics of blackmail and destruction.

[@bettinabarr9107]

@@karllieber9824Huh? Where tf are you getting this data from, OAN? You’re not saying anything based in reality, just the right wing narrative. My god, think for yourself for once.

[@cmcull987]

22:00 Professor Glenn raises the question of what to tell students. Truth matters. We all want to be on the side of justice but if we refuse to consider truth or accuracy knowing it might go against us or ours, we are lost as litigators and educators.

[@botticelli728]

John McWhorter, please create an online or video course on music.

[@rifrafbarker]

Did you see his conversation with JP on músic. Really lovely

[@quaaludecowboy692]

Good stuff. Thanks for the honesty

[@justinpaul3110]

John McWhorter pointed out something a while ago that got me wondering the same thing: there was something that changed in the African American community somewhere between the late 60's and the mid-70's...and he wasn't sure what it was. It got me wondering too. I think Shelby Steele answered part of that question in that documentary: The removal of African Americans from the tenements and into section 8 housing like Pruitt -Igoe. Steele's contention that this housing was the entry point into the middle class...and it was stripped from them. Subsequently, Glen, I'd love if you and John explore this change further in a podcast. I did it myself and I would love to see what you guys come up with.

[@TransRoofKorean]

I mean, I know *_some people_* claim to know for sure what changed -- Thomas Sowell springs to mind.

[@bradlee2594]

The soft bigotry of low expectations, largely - but not exclusively - from white liberal progressives, is what happened.

[@justinpaul3110]

I certainly have some ideas of what did it. Frankly, I think there's four things that happened.

[@bradlee2594]

@@justinpaul3110 - The single most significant idea is that the government believed they knew how people should live and how to help them live it, and they set out to force their ideas upon people who had to live with what became negative consequences - whereas the so-called elites who perpetrated those bad ideas lived consequence-free. And those same "elite-types" have learned nothing since. And the same groups of people harmed by these bad ideas continue to vote for the same type of "elites" today. What do they say about doing the same thing but expecting different results?

[@omb3d80]

@@justinpaul3110 I think a major but unspoken factor was the counter-assimilationist framework of Black life that came with the separatist inertia of the Black empowerment zeitgeist I’m interested to hear your other four reasons

[@ChicagoTRS]

New subscriber. Really enjoy your debate and honesty.

[@thn91506]

Does Al Sharpton help victims or does he exploit the victims?

[@Leroykang2001]

lol

[@drlove994]

He does the same thing Tucker Carlson does.

[@bassandtrebleclef]

@@drlove994 you believe tucker carlson is a race huckster?

[@drlove994]

@@bassandtrebleclef he's more like a patriot hustler.

[@mikegray8776]

One quick glance at his bank balance ought to do the trick! Although he probably banks at the same place Hillary keeps her servers

[@paulwally9007]

Hey! It's Uncle Tom and Uncle Jerry! Just joking! -Love you guys. Great video as always.

[@corsairdipthong3874]

I would like to see an interview with one of these prominent people that are promoting the false narrative of what happened between Trayvon and George Zimmerman that fateful night. I'd like to see someone like Henry Louis Gates jr relate what he thinks happened that night and then go by point by point and show him where he's actually in error. What would be interesting would be his response. Would he continue to believe in his original narrative although he was shown it was false?

[@erichamilton8952]

He's not interested in finding out what happened that night. He's simply a narrative promoter.

[@robohobo7892]

His response would be to classify the questions as racist...

[@corsairdipthong3874]

@@robohobo7892 Very good, young padwan!

[@iamsumwareiamsumware4918]

Who knows what actually happened that night? Can you tell me please?

[@Mobabyification]

@@iamsumwareiamsumware4918 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKeVq4mqqNF3iac

[@richpaul4083]

Just as it is wrong to kill the messenger for bringing bad news, one should not kill the message for being brought by a bad messenger.

[@michaelsaunders1509]

If Chauvin is really innocent I really feel sorry for the guy but I was always angered when I heard about countless individuals who rotted in prison for crimes they never committed. The bigger issue to me is we have a flawed system.

[@okaro6595]

Chauvin clearly did something wrong. He continued to hold Floyd down when he went unconscious but to call it murder is much. I am more concerned about the other cops. The rookies were in no position to contest the decisions of the veteran and the Asian cop was convicted because he held the mob back. That is the court said he should have allowed the mob to attack the cops.

[@swcordovaf]

“I’ll shake his hand but I may break his wrist while doing it….” Dr Glenn Lowry. I almost had my drink come through my nose with a laughing gasp uncontrollably escaped me.

[@grahamcombs4752]

A SUGGESTION FOR A PODCAST: I wonder if Prof. Loury and Prof. McWhorter have ever had a conversation about the complicated relationship between Black and Jewish Americans. I have more than once found myself in uncomfortable in between moments. Full disclosure, I'm the grandson of a coal miner and son of a assembly line work, both born and raised in Hazard, Kentucky. I grew up primarily in a white working class suburb of Detroit in the 60s and 70s. (Today it has a significant black middle class/working class population living alongside a similar white demographic.) As a young man I lived and worked in New York in the 80s and 90s. Just a suggestion for a show if you haven't already done so.

[@grahamcombs4752]

@@richardbicker640 I was born in Louisville. Just a working class guy with BA and JD degrees. My grandfather fought in the trenches of that European slaughter fest called WWI. My father was in the Navy and Naval Reserves from 1942-1952 and served on a Fletcher class destroyer in the Atlantic helping keep the British Isles afloat.

[@fretstrummr]

Not exactly what you were asking for, but you might be interested in this kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGjWp393q9J9icU

[@grahamcombs4752]

@@richardbicker640 Thank you so much. My world: Northern suburbs. Madison Heights. Next door was Hazel Park aka "Hazeltucky." Metropolitan Detroit is a very different place now. As it happens both the above burbs have significant African American populations now. You see black and white kids biking together around Madison Hts. on the weekends. A good thing. Hamtramck is now essentially Pakistani, with a majority city council that is Muslim. The Poles moved to Sterling Hts which is where the Polish cultural center is. When I was young Hamtramck was almost exclusively Polish Catholics with a smattering of students from Wayne State (my school) etc. In Madison Hts when I was a boy it seemed you were either Polish Catholic or Southern Baptist. I happened to be an altar boy in the Episcopal Church (long story) and attended Catholic schools. You always have class; it is inevitable, but in my opinion class is hardening into something like caste thanks in no small part to deindustrialization, the collapse of Catholic schools, government interference in higher education (hence the insane costs of a college degree) and the family, the obvious decline in public schools to the point of tragedy and farce ... Teachers were very important to me as a boy. They wouldn't be today. The City of Detroit is beyond belief given what it was as late as the seventies when I lived, worked and attended university in the city. My former parish as an adult Catholic is on the Eastside -- essentially a third world right here in the USA. I won't go into the sociological metrics. I refer you to Charles Murray's COMING APART; this is the short version. At one point the working and the middle classes shared these values: church, education, thrift, a strong work ethic, marriage, family -- the basics; and in my opinion the essentials as well. Thanks again. Sorry to go on so.

[@jellyrcw12]

This topic is more current than ever. I'd love to see it discussed

[@grahamcombs4752]

You couldn't be more correct. Thank you. I have had experiences throughout my life with Jewish people as well; in Detroit and New York.@@jellyrcw12

[@daniellightfoot4464]

Thanks for the insight into Scott Joplin, John. I enjoyed some of his rags before but hadn’t understood them in the context of his afro-european musical project, as you explained it. Fascinating stuff.

[@paulhue86]

Thanks for calling it a killing and not a murder.

[@younameit1407]

Why are you thankful for this?

[@plaidpaisley5918]

@@younameit1407 ..I suspect it is because the evidence strongly suggests that T jumped Z and started banging his head against the pavement when Z pulled out his gun.

[@younameit1407]

@@plaidpaisley5918 well i didn’t ask what the evidence said I asked why he was thanking a man for what term he used when describing a teenage boy being shot to death…

[@bradlee2594]

@@younameit1407 - He's thankful for the accuracy of the term used. Trayvon Martin was killed. That is accurate. What is not accurate is that he was murdered. Understand now?

[@plaidpaisley5918]

@@younameit1407 the evidence is why it wasn’t labeled a “murder”. And, he’s thankful that based on the evidence, he is using the correct term.

[@crazytrain7114]

Dr Loury, I just met you through Dr Peterson, I loved the discussion, god bless you!☆☆☆☆ I dont give 4 stars lightly

[@eswyatt]

The NYT video shamelessly reproduced the audio that was edited to make it appear Zimmerman volunteered "he looks black". The original reporter was fired, I think, for editing the audio. But his handy work lives on.

[@bradlee2594]

The audio was doctored by NBC, and three people were ultimately dismissed because of it.

[@amorfati4927]

All that matters now is who gets the their message out first and move on. No one remembers if it was wrong, fake, manipulated because they’re bombarded with new distractions.

[@fsilber330]

As I heard it, the audio was edited to change: "He's walking in the rain in a gated neighborhood where he doesn't live; he looks like trouble." "What race is he?" (pause) "He looks black." to: "he looks like trouble; he looks black"

[@omb3d80]

@Chip Belori what was the grand motive of this? is it something as simple as money, or something more nefarious like further driving a wedge between black and white Americans and thus preventing any hopes of class based solidarity?

[@THEE_WARRIOR_X]

I HOPE U TELL THE TRUTH OF ALL THE LIES IN THE CASE AS WELL. Let this young man rest

[@bradlee2594]

What lies would those be?

[@easilyoffended7772]

Messed up part is Travon’s mom knew and instead of telling the truth she said nothing

[@marlow769]

Thank You both for this intellectual viewing of these events in our recent history. Our world desperately needs more voices of truth and clarity. Maybe the unspoken part/connections that still lurk are for another podcast or even a book (you’re welcome - I’ll look for that). The backlash that is “Trumptardism”. The “white woke” movement with their cancel culture and appropriation police, etc.

[@DeatrahBello]

A grown woman taking like a child 🤣 Grownup and learn how to speak with out using childish words. Have a nice day little girl

[@williamerdman4888]

I enjoy John on many levels.... but I can tell he enjoys his study of music... very interesting.

[@AdamBechtol]

Oh, I learned something about the Trayvon Martin case. Thanks.

[@JGSmith82]

Glenn, I really do wish I could take your Race, Crime & Punishment course.....I'm a white dude who will be starting law school at an HBCU (NC Central) this fall, and I imagine the information you cover in that course might provide me with insight that I dont have at the moment.

[@monember2722]

see if he offers it online.

[@CapBlackOpinions]

As someone who's done citizen on patrol outreach while Black and not a liberal, my difference of opinion with these two scholars is when Zimmerman called the police, which I call "passing the baton (of responsibility and risk)," he should have awaited arrival of responding officers to let them assess whether Martin was engaged in criminal activity or not. The reality is Zimmerman and Martin were two private citizens with equal legal standing, each of whom could presume the other the aggressor. That's why passing the baton to law enforcement and avoiding other party if your scrutiny is noticed becomes so central. I've been in many situations where I passed the baton to law enforcement for them to confirm or deny my suspicions, usually without the suspected person's knowledge. Otherwise, one can find oneself in confrontations, with possibly life changing outcomes. That's why so few go the citizens on patrol route.

[@bradlee2594]

As someone who is not a liberal, perhaps you will be able to answer my question and do so reasonably. I ask the following with earnestness and respectfulness: What information do you rely on to conclude Zimmerman did not await responding officers? What do you believe he did instead? And do you believe what he did instead was criminally wrong? Morally wrong? Ethically wrong? Or do you believe what he did instead was simply unreasonable?

[@CapBlackOpinions]

@@bradlee2594 I think Zimmerman exiting his vehicle after contacting police upped the ante for confrontation either way. Since most folks aren't willing to possible fight someone angered by being observed that's why vast majority of concerned citizens call 911 and let police handle it from there. Otherwise, confrontation can occur, regardless of who is found to be the aggressor afterward. If you don't actually see a crime in progress, is it worth potential injury, death, use of force causing injury or death and possible arrest, prosecution and conviction- not to mention civil liability? Most concerned citizens opt for discreet 911 calls without subject's knowledge for these very reasons.

[@bradlee2594]

@@CapBlackOpinions - If I understand you correctly, you are stating the reason Zimmerman failed to await responding officers is because he exited his vehicle. If he had simply stood next to his vehicle, would that constitute failure as well? We all agree he did not simply stand next to his vehicle, but fundamentally, would my hypothetical question change your perspective?

[@CapBlackOpinions]

@@bradlee2594 Martin initiated force first. I'm not debating that point. Just noting as a long term citizen on patrol how this encounter went off the rails by being accessible to someone you're watching who knows he's being watched. I want concerned citizens to use every best practice not to go hands on, unless you're a Guardian Angels type who'll detain suspects.

[@bradlee2594]

@@CapBlackOpinions - Understood, and I agree for the most part. We should learn from this experience and think twice (or 12 times) before acting in these types of situations. I disagree with the implication Zimmerman was "hands on" though. From my analysis, Zimmerman did nothing wrong except put himself in harms way even though, at the time, he had no reasonable expectation that he was doing just that.

[@the1andonlypop]

They understand that Treyvon beat him up, doesn't matter how severely to them, because without Zimmerman following him and trying to access whether a few citizen has the right to walk a public street and neighborhood. They suggest he only felt that right because Treyvon was black and that he would not be suspicious of a young white teen. Also they argue that Treyvon felt threatened and if was alive could say he beat him because he was being stalked and scared for his life. That being said I feel the disconnect between opinions is status. The poor have an entirely different opinion and general interaction with the law. Wealthy blacks are treated far better than poor blacks and even poor whites. Please access from all aspects rather than just that of a middle class college professor.

[@kjs257incpen3]

Just say you’re racist and go on

[@okaro6595]

Maybe you did not follow the case. At first they denied Martin attacked Zimmerman. They now may admit it as there is no choice. Zimmerman did not follow Martin for four minutes before the fight. Zimmerman himself is partially black. He has no problems with blacks. It was the behavior that raised his concerns. Martin was walking in the rain looking into windows of people. If Martin was scared why did he not go in. Why did he go 100 meters back to confront Zimmerman? This is the first TYT video on the case. For many, including me it was the first case they heard about it. That established the left wing narrative and nothing changed it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3TGh3alipKYosU

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@okaro6595 Zimmerman was not justified. You don’t say how he was. He initiated contact. He was the instigator. How are you getting that this wasn’t stand your ground? It was. Zimmerman continued as the aggressor, Martin kept walking away. The behavior up til now makes Zimmerman a legal target for Martin to defend himself with any force necessary. Case closed. Witness statements, relationships, size differences. It was Zimmerman’s gun. He drew it to use on Martin. The defense picked 6 women. What a mockery. Only the Simpson jury matches the unbridled lack of decency and mental awareness. There’s no explanation other than utter stupidity. Zimmerman was acquitted by a bunch of loons. He’s a murderer nonetheless.

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@okaro6595If Zimmerman was scared why did he stalk Trayvon

[@bubbag8895]

Didn't help that the media edited the 911 recording before playing it

[@dolliscrawford280]

Listen again to Zimmermann's first 911 call. He had to get his gun after the call. That is not standing your ground. That is I want to get away with murder. 😡

[@pdumpsterful]

What?

[@okaro6595]

What nonsense. There was no 911 call. It was police non-emergency and it shows Zimmerman stopped following Martin. What do you mean even with "get this gun". You carry your weapon on your person.

[@williamhalejr.4289]

This DEFINITELY reveals the racist streak of ANYONE claiming that the death of the PUNK Trayvon Martin was anything other than fully justified as self defense. The truth is that Trayvon Martin attacked another human being without ANY justification and was killed because of Trayvon Martin's own punk ass attitude and punk ass actions! Had Trayvon martin gone HOME he would still be alive today. Had Zimmerman not shot Martin after being nearly killed by him, then Martin would STILL be in prison for his criminal assault and attempted murder of Zimmerman. Everyone of these people knew it was a race hoax from the start. The Democratic Party, the race hucksters Sharpton, Jackson and Obama, the media everyone lied so that the DNC could push the LIES that white people were out to kill black men and the ONLY way to protect yourself is to vote DEMOCRAT! They ALL lied and Trayvon's mother is getting rich off of it and is now a politician still foisting the LIES about her punk son.

[@jameshartley5]

Media always showed photo of Martin as skinny 11 year old

[@annlouise8909]

Thank you

[@robertryan1663]

Can't blame Johnny Cochran for doing his job extraordinarily well. What was bizarre about the OJ Simpson trial is how many people acted like he was the only one who ever got away with murdering someone

[@buicklincoln]

Up until the OJ trial, many believed justice was served based on evidence, etc. Cochran taught us that "justice" can be bought and how outcomes are determined based on the lawyer's presentation skills in court. If Cochran was the prosecutor, OJ would've gotten the death penalty. Yes, his skills were THAT good.

[@TransRoofKorean]

I'm still not convinced on OJ. They barely touched it, but there was more evidence than that that was known to have been fabricated against OJ. In my mind, "if he clearly did it, then there's no need to fabricate evidence. Therefore, the fact that we know that some evidence was fabricated means some more of the evidence we accept as real also may have been fabricated. I now have reasonable doubt of his guilt." Did he do it? Yeah, probably. But if the prosecution fucks up, they deserve to lose cases. If the cops fuck up, they deserve to lose cases. We used to take it for granted in this country, "it's better to have 10 guilty men go free than imprison 1 innocent man"; I still use that rule in my mind even if others don't. Murder can get you a life sentence or even the death penalty: fabricating evidence against someone to pin a murder on them, *_even if you think they're guilty of it,_* should get similar sentences. Fabricating evidence is no better than faking crimes, false accusations of hate crimes run amok, false rape accusations, etc. I'm more concerned about those specific cops than OJ, frankly.

[@fsilber330]

"What was bizarre about the OJ Simpson trial is how many people acted like he was the only one who ever got away with murdering someone" That wasn't it it. It was the shock of seeing so many black people _cheering_ for his getting away with murder.

[@monember2722]

oh really? That was the bizarre thing about the OJ case?

[@dominickschrute3084]

Just because it isn't the only person to get away with murder, doesn't mean it isn't abhorrent. Sexual assault happens all the time, but if someone (that isn't morally bankrupt) hears of a child being molested, they don't shrug and say "happens all the time, and some people get away with it, who cares?"

[@deenzmartin6695]

interesting and nuanced as always.

[@prariedogg2529]

I was an Obama voter/supporter until his 180 on the Trayvon shooting. I remember black far leftists back then being critical of Obama for his "black people need to act right" stance, and they were very upset with his initial comments about the incident, which were "this is a local matter and the federal government doesn't need to get involved". I felt back then THAT was the correct position for the president to be taking. Flash forward ten years and now he's sitting shiva with the same people that pressured him into lending his weight to what is probably (without hyperbole) the most destructive movement for black people since the abolishment of slavery. The BLM and "defund the police" movements have led to more than double the number of black on black murders in the past two years. I doubt anyone on that commemorative panel recognized this FACT, much less accept their lot in causing it.

[@davidstrohl]

Knowing something and admitting it are two completely different beasts. I don’t for a moment believe they’re unaware of these facts. But it would be professional suicide and complete narrative collapse if they said them aloud. Meanwhile, the death toll increases by orders of magnitude in every city in the USA, unabated.

[@claudaniella]

My story is similar. I supported Obama. I had great hopes that given the fact that so much of America, as a whole, could confirm what most of us knew by electing him; that we had come such a long way, and were becoming color-blind as a society. So we gave a young, articulate, mixed-race candidate the opportunity to unite and heal the nation. Why not hand him the keys? Just stay on track and nurture the progress. As time went on, I think he realized that a united America, without division, would derail his socialist agenda. And wherever possible, he fanned the flames of division. All the way into what is now his third term. A missed opportunity for a legacy as the Great Uniter. Instead, he is a tool, an apologist and a supporter of totalitarian regimes.

[@devilsadvocate7389]

Really? Can you provide data for that claim? Defund the police is a slogan, most police departments got increase in funding.

[@prariedogg2529]

The FBI homicide data shows murder went up by 29% in 2021, but they wouldn't release the demographic breakdown this year (wonder why). Nearly 50% of homicides the previous year were black on black. 5000 extra deaths over the 8000 the year before, all of it street violence gone rampant fro lack of policing.

[@devilsadvocate7389]

@@prariedogg2529 kids screaming “defund the police” does not mean it actually happened. That’s not how public budgeting works. So first you have to prove cuts for the police actually happened in a particular place, then prove that crime rate went up, THEN prove that it was actually caused by the cuts… causation and correlations are not the same. So unless you have some data from a independent study which can show this, you’re simply just reaching and running your mouth because some kids on a street said something which triggered your feelings.

[@marlow769]

No one mentions that (not so little) Trayvon was already a handful for one of his parents (I believe his mother) for causing trouble and drug possession so she sent Trayvon to his father in Florida where he had already been found with marijuana residue in his bookbag at school and had been expelled for some period of time. Trayvon was growing up to be another George Floyd.

[@drlove994]

I'm not trolling but honest questions. should we teach our kids if someone is following you home you should just assume they have good intentions? and just do what some random stranger says?

[@paulhue86]

What I suggest you try to figure out from this incident is why was it that Trayvon was one of the few people that this formally trained (by the police) neighborhood watchman would 100% accurately suspect Trayvon as a drug-using burglar, which is exactly how the resident police at Trayvon’s high-crime, failing high school characterized him. That is the key to this. Trayvon was NOT walking home. He was a staying a few days with one of his tomcat father’s side chicks, so let’s add to this about “our kids” wandering around a neighborhood where they do not live, and behaving in a manner that attracts suspicion from a trained watchman. Then let’s consider what we teach our kids about attacking an adult who is monitoring them. We should also pull back and consider the parenting that Trayvon was receiving…or lack of it. HIs parents permitted him to get tattoo’d and to turn a two week suspension into a two week fun road trip with no punishment, not even a curfew much less being properly grounded. Imagine that: suspended multiple times that year for skipping & burgling & vandalizing, and on a school night of a two week suspension, while other kids are doing homework or getting ready to be up in the morning for school, he’s out doing whatever he wants for as long as he wants.

[@paulhue86]

Zimmerman was not a random stranger. Zimmerman was a resident adult in a neighborhood experiencing an ongoing crime surge, and he had completed police-administered neighborhood watch training. The random stranger was Trayvon, who lived 4 hours away in a notoriously high crime Miami neighborhood and corresponding failing high school.

[@drlove994]

So Zimmerman prejudge Trayvon?

[@paulhue86]

@@drlove994 Zimmerman profiled Trayvon, and did so 100% accurately. And he very helpfully and responsibly called in his suspicion to 911, and maintained visual contact until police arrived.

[@paulhue86]

@@drlove994 Trayvon prejudged Zimmerman, and quite accurately: as a responsible adult watching out to spot and counteract crime. Criminals hate that; it angers them to have responsible adults spot and monitor them. Trayvon reacted in violent anger. Trayvon apologists believe that Trayvon prejudged Zimmerman to be some sort of criminal on the prowl, and to them this justified Trayvon translating his prejudice not into him calling the police, but to initiate a violent assault.

[@breathnstop]

Zimmerman was a grown man with no authority to put his hands on another person. Trayvon Martin was defending himself from an assault. Totally justified. Zimmerman assaulted and murdered him. Period.

[@bradlee2594]

Zimmerman did not assault Trayvon Martin. Nor did he put his hands on Trayvon. You have no idea what the evidence is, yet you have very strong opinions about what happened. Fundamentally, that has more in common with insanity than anything resembling reasonableness.

[@pep590]

WRONG!! Where do you get your lies!!!!!!!!!! Sorry. You're hero Martin was an attempted murderer.

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@bradlee2594 Zimmerman started the altercation, Zimmerman escalated the altercation, Zimmerman having provoked Martin into physically defending himself then Intentional shot and killed the unarmed teenager. MURDER.

[@bradlee2594]

@@kjs257incpen3 - The evidence along with witness testimony disagrees with you. You obviously care deeply about this case. Why don't you actually learn something about the case so you can discuss it intelligently? Why instead do you repeatedly copy/paste other people's comments - and repeatedly tell people to hush?

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@bradlee2594Just hush at this point please

[@bryanmurray2723]

I dont think Black Americas response to the OJ trial results was about antiracism. I think it was closer to revenge or at least wanting White America to, for once, experience what Blacks have percieved has been perpetrated against them. Glen says that should have been condemmed. True. At the same time, I think their response reflects how a large part of the Black community understandbly felt about how America, and in particular, its criminal justice system treated them.

[@paigemccormick6519]

Hi Bryan. It sounds like you're saying a) Whites kills blacks, get found innocent, and whites are happy, therefore b) OJ kills 2 whites, should be found innocent, so blacks can be happy for once. That's not understandable in any sense.

[@Demonico-j7x]

Correct, it gives a real insight into the pathology of black America.

[@Kennyaj123]

Hey guys, always really appreciate your content, And I just wanted to highlight it how good a point I think you both were making about the cycle of white skepticism confirming belief into stomach racism. As someone who cares empathetically and deeply about this issue, I didn’t realize I would become a part of the cycle recently for the reason you gave it example: not serving on a hiring bored when I realized that the primary metric they were looking for was not related to the content of the job itself. When a friend who knows that she is more progressive than me but we usually Kansas staying a decent discord was asking me about this board, the conversation got a bit awkward and quiet when we got to my decision to step down. It was like she didn’t know how to file it away. “This guys got black friends, how could he be so unconsciously racist.”

[@JaimePretell]

He was NOT told not to get out of the car!

[@hoggst1985]

The dispatcher asked "Are you following him?" GZ responded "Yeah" and dispatcher said "OK, we don't need you to do that." IMO, close enough to what Glenn Loury stated. Obviously, GZ gave the dispatcher a middle finger, unless one believes he went to wait for the cops and Trayvon turned around and stalked him.

[@VelkePivo]

@@hoggst1985 you think “we don’t need you to do that” is the same as a command to not get out of the car? The former seems pretty weak to me. More of a preference than a command

[@JaimePretell]

@@hoggst1985 that was 14 seconds after he had already left the car trying to respond to a dispatcher inquiry. No evidence that Zimmerman followed after that. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5eonWNohp2gopY

[@paulhue86]

@@hoggst1985 Zimmerman had no obligation to follow the dispatcher’s instruction EVEN IF the dispatcher had clearly told Zimmerman not to follow. And by the way, the dispatcher’s concern was not that Zimmerman would attack the suspect, but rather that the suspect would attack Zimmerman, and that would make the dispatcher blame-able for not ensuring that Zimmerman thought he was being encouraged to follow a suspicious person.

[@erichamilton8952]

@@hoggst1985 Sorry bub. Zimmerman was heard running on the call when what you wrote happened and then after Zimmerman said OK he can be heard to stop running. So no, it's no obvious that he gave the dispatcher the middle finger and followed. The evidence through out the trial supported Zimmerman's statements and indicates that he didn't follow.

[@keith6162]

A good conversation gentlemen. A nice coda in the Joplin discussion.

[@Celtic-Texan]

The Treyvon case for all practical purposes ended my once close friendship with one of my Black friends. I have dozens of close Black friends, mostly center to center right leaning, and a few left of center, but my one friend I would discover was far left. We started off 23 years ago as co-workers sitting side by side for three years in an IT operations center, and enjoyed all kinds of casual conversation, but in those days the political divide and political banter among friends really wasn't much of thing, especially at the office. Fast forward 13 years and the political landscape had evolved in a very divisive way, Obama was President, everything was becoming lit. My buddy and I are FB friends, and I posted my thoughts about the Treyvon case, and you would have thought I had proclaimed I was a card carrying KKK member. It was then that he started dragging me into online debates with militant fervor. I never realized how polarizing and destructive to a friendship things could get between two seemingly level headed people over a personal opinion on social media. He would go into lengthy diatribes on any of my posts he viewed as racial ignorance on my part, he evolved from friend to self appointed racial studies professor. I finally had to set up my posts to viewable by all friends but him, so that I would no longer offend him, and I stopped short of defriending him because I still view him as a long time friend I care about. Anyway, I know it's wishful thinking, but the political and racial divide has got to end, it's so damn tiring, I don't know how much longer we can persevere.

[@claudaniella]

And somewhere...Obama smiles....

[@lmaolmaolmaolmao1234]

Wow, that was A TERRIBLY Over-extended && LONGGGG expo. lmaoo** that All could've Been much, Much more simply PUT IT AND YET, It All still just comes Across As "bad",, 🙃

[@davidwhite8220]

If their best examples are all false, why do these people think they have discovered a poetic truth?

[@TheSculptedTree]

This is the one time I disagree with you both completely. There's no doubt Zimmerman started the altercation with Martin. Martin has the right to self defense, not Zimmerman. Just because Florida has a stand your ground law doesn't mean the is law just, righteous, and something we should set our moral compass toward. Civil decency will always win out in the heart of hearts. What I hear you two saying is that "if someone (Zimmerman) initiates a physical confrontation with someone (Martin) they are then allowed to kill based upon self defense because the victim (Martin) fought back. And, you know, that's ok because it's the law." Where is your moral compass in this matter outside of the law? Human decency deserves more support from you in this matter.

[@bradlee2594]

No, you are incorrect. In fact, the facts we know and can analyze indicate it was Martin who started the altercation. Would you say you are in possession of the facts? Have you analyzed those facts? Have you left any facts out when analyzing? If so, why?

[@pdumpsterful]

How do you know Zimmerman started the altercation? You don't know the facts of this case

[@michaellyles1605]

They can't get the bag of they change their narrative.

[@okaro6595]

Just on what do you base on that? Do you not recognize that Martin went back to confront Zimmerman at the T-intersection?

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@bradlee2594Please Hush

[@scbluesman13]

I love your conversations - always, however if you could clarify a point that the two of you made in this discussion I'd really appreciate it. Around the @25:50 mark, there was some commentary about police killing black people. Glenn said that Whites are killed more by police than Black folks are, and John sort of corrected him with regards to percentage of the population. John *then* went on to say that he also thought that poverty explained this phenomenon better than race does. My question is, what phenomenon are we talking about here? The type of bigotry and privilege that exists within police officers that allows them to think it's OK to use excessive force against citizens? Are you saying that class explains this better than race does? Can both reasons exist simultaneously? Lastely, a personal anecdote. I'm a 50 year old bi-racial man (my skin complexion is close to John McWhorter's but my demeanor & personality is probably closer to Glenn Loury's). I've lived in California all my life - in the Bay Area. To this day, I have not once had a positive interaction with the police. Not once. I've never committed a crime, heck I've only ever gotten two traffic tickets in my entire life, and I dress fairly semi-professionally (khakis & collared shirts). I've even shared a brief friendship with the county sheriff where I live now when our children went to the same school and we'd always see each other at birthday parties. But for some reason, every. single. interaction I've had with police has always been negative, hostile, and a blatant attempt on the part of the officer to paint a picture of me that was a caricature of the "typical black male suspect". I wouldn't say that I'm "anti-police", but I will say that I'm just exhausted by it. I've run out of things I can think of to improve on myself to try and reduce this problem. I literally do not know what else I can do. I'm just worn out by it at this point, and I don't see how it could be anything else other than racism or at the very least racial prejudice.

[@bradlee2594]

Racial tension, that is moving more and more negative because of absurd reactions to cases such as the shooting of Trayvon Martin, is a significant reason interactions between black people and police is bad. Merit is too rapidly becoming a meaningless factor. But merit will always be valued by many. The holding up of Trayvon Martin (and others) as "innocent victims" that exemplify some kind of "gold standard" that "proves" racism in America is still so prevalent is hurting America. Black America, more so than non-black. When merit is allowed to be important by more and more people, interactions between police and black people will improve.

[@Ladysdg]

Zimmerman followed Martin; Zimmerman engaged in a fight with Martin; Zimmerman was losing the fight with Martin; Zimmerman shot Martin because he was losing the fight... Martin had skittles and Iced Tea, not a Coke... Martin was returning from the store during the halftime show at the NBA all-star... Martin's father lived in the neighbourhood. Ask Martin what happened... oh, you can't, he's dead... Zimmerman shot him because he was losing a fight he started. Eff this shit... Martin was much bigger than Zimmerman... WTAF?!??!

[@lkwalden7]

Would you care to cite any sources?

[@bradlee2594]

A+B+C=D. So simple. You haven't the slightest clue what actually happened, I will guess. Maybe I'm wrong. You can prove me wrong (or right) by answering the following question: What information do you rely on that results in you believing Zimmerman started a fight?

[@kjs257incpen3]

@@bradlee2594 Please just hush

[@bradlee2594]

@@kjs257incpen3 - Following me around, again? Why?

[@okaro6595]

No, Zimmerman had stopped following four minutes before the fight. One can walk the distance where Zimmerman left his truck to Martin's destination in two minutes. Martin sought out Zimmerman.