Trope Talk - Strong Female Characters

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Comment any of your Q&A questions for me here by replying to this comment so that I can keep track of them!

[@leathehatless]

What book are you currently reading? As a writer, what is the genre your like to work on or is the most fun to work on?

[@fuzzygurl23]

Jordan Harvey I have to agree with U about Rey. I love her more in TFA and was willing to give her another chance in TLJ. After that, All I can wish is for Rey to have some real reprecussions for everything that happens to her after TLJ. Unpopular Opinion: I really loathe the fact that Rian Johnson puts Reylo in the spotlight which doesn't help the fact that the movie is still a big disjointed mess. Question: Which Star wars Character (From Both EU & Current Canon) can u relate the most? Mine is Mara Jade Skywalker because of her growth from a internally broken Assassin to a well deserved redemmed lady who loves Luke Skywalker, Supports him and embraces both feminity and later Motherhood.

[@billyjones-1996]

any thoughts on "manic pixie dream girls"?

[@Em_Elizabeth]

I was writing a book a few years ago that featured a "kick-butt" female character but the work was put on hold after I went to a school that was super conservative as far as the gender roles go. I got scared that the wise guys will condemn my work the same way they condemn other media for portraying women in "false light". Infinity was supposed to be a cool character but now I don't know if her story will ever see the light of day after my "red pill" experience. Writers influence ppl's minds and I don't want to write the wrong thing. At the same time, I feel like my creativity is getting suppressed. Where do I find a balance?

[@GeahkBurchill]

I would say, if you want to understand some of the hostility towards Feminism of the last few years, a good start would be at Karen Straughan's channel. Most people start with her video on 'Male Disposability.' You may or may not agree with what she has to say, but she is an important source for _why_ there is so much antagonism. I don't think there are many people who are against the _Dictionary Definition_ of Feminism but there has been a tremendous amount to disagree with in the practice of it.

[@avionpiscean33]

Nani Peleki from Lilo and stitch is a really great example of a strong female character.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

YES! I love her.

[@aeshiryzenaeschirett5415]

Yes!!!! She is everything!

[@imnothere6696]

@@JordanHarveybooks she does so much and sacrifices for Lilo

[@IceQueen975]

"I don't think we should degrade male characters" FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREES! I'm so super *tired* of it. I'm a biiiig proponent of if you have to push someone else/a certain group down, you're a bully not strong or empowered.

[@skar8009]

That's precisely the message some people want to send. Have you seen how they executed the "Female Avengers" scene from Endgame? you have a young, weakened Spider-Man who is asked to step aside by this strong group of women. It's just empowering a group at the cost of degrading the other.

[@HIMMBelljuvo]

Amen! It's insulting to women to suggest that they can only be equal to men when men aren't at their best. And, of course, it's insulting to men to be shit on all the time. So basically nobody wins

[@AlliesBeautyTips]

In my opinion, the females characters in Avatar the last air bender are the most flawless strong badass chicks ive ever encountered. They are all strong in different ways, and they are all amazing.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Alessandra Santamaría I agree! I love them so much :)

[@breezy3392]

I agree. Making characters that are top fighters might be unrelatable to most people, but it is their traits, flaws, struggles and choices that make them good characters. In my current work, I have many female characters who are fighters because that is what the world they live in requires them to be. There is logic to how they obtained their skills. Emily is the best fighter and she is also a politician's daughter. Her status explains why she has access to the best training. Her strained relationship with her father shows why though she has political know how, she does not like to be use what she learned from him. Thalia becomes a leader using skill and knowledge she learned in prison. Kayla & Rileigh were both trained as soldiers, but while Kayla wants to make her father proud by being a good soldier, Rileigh is more party girl than soldier girl. Antonia is the tech savvy one, highly intelligent yet socially awkward. There is a progression to how she becomes stronger physically and emotionally. Glass is not seen as a fighter. She is the sweet ray of sunshine that everyone loves. She is also Emily's best friend, and after being separated from her friends who she has always been able to hide behind, we see another side of her being forced out when she had to fend for herself and show what she learned from her friends.

[@piscis210]

I think Sansa from GoT/Asoiaf is a great example too. Because it really shows what people misunderstand about strong female characters. (or strong characters in general.) Sansa watched the boy she thought as her true love kill her father. She had to live with the people who murdered her family by their rules for years. Got married off to someone from the same family too. She nearly got gang raped. Almost everyone around her saw her as a pawn or a toy. She got beaten and humiliated. (All of this happened when she was twelve or thirteen) She survived all of this and people still give her shit because she doesn't know how to fight with a weapon or doesn't have dragons. But that's what makes her strong. She never lost her hope or who she was. She never became a bully, always waited, always acted kindly, and smiled at the people she hated. She knew what would get her killed so she repressed all her pain. (In GoT, when the right moment came, she took her revenge too.) And for me that's a strong character trait. Also, great video as always!!!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks! Yeah I completely agree. Sansa is amazing. For the purposes of this video I was looking at physically strong characters, which is why I didn't mention her, but she's awesome and her character arcs is one of the best in the series.

[@Heisenberg4188]

Most of the women in asoiaf are strong in their own ways. You got cersei, the tyrells, Arienne martell, asha greyjoy, the stark girls, val and the spearwives, lady catelyn or stoneheart, melisandre i could go on. I believe writers should learn from George rr Martin on how to develop characters

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Negan1024 Definitely!!

[@jenniferaguilera2087]

Jordan Harvey There's one thing I don't get: you mean someone's a strong female character only when they're physically strong or it also applies when they kill people and have power over others? Because Daenerys isn't physically strong at all, but she's powerful and can be ruthless, and sometimes people get confused

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Undrowned , Thank you!

[@santanasg8445]

I'm getting a little bit tired of female characters being super (physically) strong & have the best fighting skills, being the hero who destroys the (male) villain- I'm a feminist & I'm a girl, & I have no idea how to fight, or would survive a fight at all. I want to see smart female characters, villain females, girls with the same flaws we most girls have, & yes, I definitely don't want them to fight men (as if they need another reason to confuse feminism), but stand with them as equal.

[@garlandthompson5970]

Yaaaaaaaassssssss 💕

[@raidthanfl]

Great points

[@eddydeniro4110]

I don’t see any problem with girls fighting me. There are some tough women who can beat men. They can still have flaws as well.

[@salmon6459]

For me emotionally strong characters are my favourite.

[@eddydeniro4110]

Honestly, the idea of an emotionally weak female character but physically very capable, impresses me more. The character Makie in the manga Blade of the Immortal, impressed me a lot by being that way. She’s a better fighter than everyone else, including the main character who’s an immortal swordsman, yet she’s insecure about herself and lost a fight with him because she was emotionally distraught.

[@tessavery2151]

I definitely agree with what you said. I struggle when reading a book with a main character that is said to be "strong", but is only ever described as physically strong. And, more often than not, those "strong" characters really aren't as physically strong as the author makes them out to be.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Definitely!! Side note... I think you're awesome

[@Corn_Pone_Flicks]

Curious; how can a character who only exists via the author's portrayal be anything other than what the author makes them out to be?

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I think she just means that it's often SAID that they're strong, but the character's actions may not match up with those descriptions.

[@tessavery2151]

Thank you so much! I love your videos!

[@tessavery2151]

Yes! That was what I meant, sorry if I worded it in a confusing way!

[@sirazazeloflowkey6424]

It's a paradox. They wanted to virtue signal with Rey's character by making her a 'strong female character' . But it backfired because funny enough they approached it in a sexist way. There should be no differance between creating a strong male or female character. When I first heard the new SW protagonist was female I was very excited, I was hoping she would slowly grow from a wobbly but somewhat capable character into somewhat of a Jedi by episode 8 and then a Jedi master by episode 9 kinda like Luke, so we could see her grow. Instead she was instant jedi master by the middle of episode 7. Like what? How are girls supposed to get the same empowerment, the same relatability and the same inspiration from her. Luke's character arc tells boys that it doesn't matter how weak they start, if they preservere and train hard they can become a Jedi Master. Contradicting to that is Rey's story arc, which tells girls that if they are not perfect at everything from the get go, plus have God(s) (the force) on their side from the get-go , they might as well give up on Jedi Mastery. In short; - Luke's story = Work hard and you will make it. -Rey's story = You either have it or you don't. An epic failiure if you ask me.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Sir Azazel of Lowkey Yes! Very well said.

[@titang6173]

I never thought of it that way.

[@MountSilky252]

Luke's story started out as a tale of working hard to succeed, but as soon as the prequels came out, they retroactively ruined him. He wasn't a nobody from the middle of nowhere anymore, but a son of a chosen one with the special privileges of a magical bloodline. His genetic gifts cheapened his journey, turning it into something he was given instead of earned. Midichlorians, however you spell them, ruined a part of what made Luke so cool. Also, in Return of the Jedi, it's almost as if he became a master off screen (or at least, that's how it felt).

[@hellosugah1770]

Luke wasn't a master in Jedi... he was just a Jedi.

[@titang6173]

@@hellosugah1770 official, since all other Jedi's at the time were dead and gone, but he still counts as a master

[@fuzzygurl23]

My favourite female characters are not only those who can defend for themselves but women who ALSO treats the opposite sex like their husbands/boyfriends with respect, support and love without obviously losing their strong nature, desires healthy relationships (be it romantic, familiar or girl friendships), who rises from adversity in various kinds be it physical, emotional and spiritual, cares for others, being relatable and not afraid to embrace femine traits and roles despite not being physically strong like a muscular man (My fav examples are: Mara Jade Skywalker, Sailor Moon, Kira Finster, Lois Lane, Astrid Hofferson from HTTYD, Princess Anna from Frozen, Belle from the animated BTAB, Wonder Woman, Cinderella, Leia Organa Solo from EU, Gamora & Mantis from GOTG, Princess Rapunzel and Jessica Jones) Btw: I love Ahsoka Tano too!

[@sarawawa8984]

I think it’d help if writers saw the “strong female character” as a person first lol, on making a good character! It’s just that simple. My personal issue is the “strong female character” who’s really just a sarcastic, rude jerk. Being sarcastic doesn’t make a person strong! Also how do the sarcastic jerks still tend to be universally beloved? Have these writers ever been around sarcastic jerks? They aren’t fun to be around! They’re mean! They don’t tend to be the popular people...because they’re mean! And being mean and rude is not the same as being strong blehhh

[@jamesrussell2936]

It's amazing how few people agree with you, me being one of them.

[@foxymoon7860]

Well yeah. Especially if a character is Ultra Tsundere type character and is generally rude and bashing, and if those behavior seen as something endearing, then good fucking bye.

[@elias0282]

Unless you're a masochist. You can take mean and rude insults.

[@anjetto1]

Hot headed and stubborn seem to be the default "strong female character" flaws. Which is weird. Male characters have a variety of flaws. Why is it always hot blooded and stubborn? Why not alcoholism? Socially awkward? Bad at scrabble?

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Seriously though! I'm terrible at scrabble. I consider it to be one of my primary character faults.

[@yinsiade7785]

This! Their personalities are just so...meh for me. The Hunger Games, Divergent, and Red Queen are some of my fave series EVER but in my mind Katniss/Tris/Mare are basically the same person/character

[@entertain7us148]

The reason we never talk about "strong male characters" is that a lot of the time, men are just written better than women. A "strong female character" doesn't have to be a hero or even a protagonist, she just had to be written to be the same believable, flesh-and-blood human being with motives, origins and obstacles as you would give a typical male character.

[@DrEllert]

"I think that what makes a strong female character, also makes a strong male character." - EXACTLY. That's what I always think about this subject. Also out of late I find male protagonists kinda boring, and actually like to explore female protagonists' view (the only male protagonist I like is Rincewind... I identify with him so much). Just a question: what do you think about the opposite, a strong female antagonist? For example Azula (Avatar: the Last Airbender) or Umbridge (Harry Potter)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I think I may do a video on female antagonists fairly soon, so I'm not going to get into it too much right now, but Azula and Umbridge are both awesome characters and villains.

[@aokayt9517]

I actually disagree slightly with that. Men and women are fundamentally different, with different brains, hormone levels, and bodies. What works well in a guy is typically unnatural in a girl, and vise versa. I would like to see a strong female character where she is actually feminine; not that ugly mixture of the really annoying stereotypical sassy girl attitude with the masculine "I'm so tough" brawny personality. Nor do I want a girl that's a pushover or victimizes herself. Can't we just have a strong feminine female character, who is actually a normal woman? Who has maternal instincts, who utilizes her sense to protect (that comes along with those maternal instincts) for a greater good, who's courageous, who's kind, who can be pretty tough, but in a feminine way? It's really not that hard, and obviously it doesn't have to be a character I just described; but what I'm trying to say is let's have female characters who embrace their female nature, and guy characters who embrace their male nature as a base, then build upon that with their inevitable, unique personalities.

[@DrEllert]

AOkayT very interesting. I actually think that for me as a reader I dont really look for physical expressions (hormons etc). rather id like to see more a personality differences. for example, both.girls and boys can fear dogs - but how they express that can differentiate entirely from one gender to another :)

[@maripaz5650]

Azula was an amazing (read: terrifying) antagonist

[@marcelinauy9037]

AOkayT I agree with you. Thats one of the reason why I love Katara. she's a strong woman who is a woman. She is maternal, nurturing and has the tendency to be emotional (something that is scientifically proven to be prevalent on women).

[@poontang3zizo]

As an aspiring writer, my belief is that you begin forming a character's personality first. Gender, race, social standing etc. all fall into place after you define the character's personality. I'm a guy and on a few occasions I've written characters that started out with my male perspective only to realise later on that with the conflict that I thrusted on them, it would be more interesting to switch the character to a female. The point is if you write with the intention of making the best most awesomest female hero ever you usually end up with rubbish. We're human beings first. Find the humanity in your character and the rest will naturally fall into place. Oh and good video. You've earned my subscription.

[@nicholaswiberly3825]

I could really care less if a story has with it a protagonist or antagonist who are male, female, light-skinned, dark-skinned, Latino, Russian, American, German, disabled, or anything in between. I just want a good character who I can relate to and has faults that make them better as the story progresses, without the propaganda garbage(looking at you The Last Jedi).

[@IceQueen975]

ALL of this. Growing up, I actually preferred the male protagonists because they tended to be more complex and endured a lot more. I've noticed there's an almost unspoken rule that there are certain things you can't "do" to female characters of late. And it makes them suffer sadly.

[@RealVincent1989]

@@IceQueen975 Actually male characters just get more pass for same things that female characters do

[@snitterdog7276]

most of my favourite strong female characters are for some reason children, or from media angled towards children? i think creators have a tendency to forget the possible baggage that comes with the 'female character' label when the character or intended audience in question is young. many of the studio ghibli leads, neil gaiman's coraline, & heroines from cartoons (a good example would be beatrice from over the garden wall) fit into this category. i think it's bc creators write them primarily as children (or with children in mind), and with this being at the forefront of their minds, they don't really tend to take gender tropes into consideration.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

snitterdog hmm you may be right! There are so many good ones!

[@SaturdayParker]

I completely understand I love books aimed at 10-12 year olds more YA. Even though I miss romance, the characters seem to value friendship above all else, get along with their parents. This actually got me thinking about how Jesus says the greatest among us are children. I feel I really get that now. Thanks😄

[@GirlWithTheBook]

Didn’t like Celaena (not sure how it’s spelled) and because of that I couldn’t get into throne of glass. I read the first two books because I bought two at once, anticipating to love it cuz I love assassin/rogue-type characters. To me she felt like a Barbie doll with weapons, no depth. Now that I’m writing and I have a female protagonist, I made her flawed for reasons she can’t control and constantly plagued by guilt stemming from a power that is both a blessing and a curse. No one wants a perfect hero, because none of us are.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Yes! Great comment!!

[@laureng2353]

hit me up with that book when you’re finished, I’d love to read it!!

[@charrier18]

I felt the same way about Celaena. I really liked the ending of Crown of midnight though so I tried Heir of Fire, and I went from hating her to loving her. 100% I think she redeems herself by the end of the book when she finally decides to fight for her crown.

[@bonitawhitethorn2714]

Carla Charrier Aelin/celeana most definitely does

[@heloisapompeo3463]

@@charrier18 yessss! I think that Celaena/ Aelin was the kind of character that hold a lot of her self. I read all the throne of Glass series but kingdom of ash (hasn't come to Brazil yet) and I really feel like Aelin has grown in the series. In the inicial books she was this badass woman, fearless, rude and she turned out being a broken, passionate, careful girl that passed through too much and had to live a life running from people and her self... I love the series as you can see.

[@Ralndrath]

One of my favourite strong female characters was the pregnant woman who ran the hotel in the movie; In Bruges. Despite being pregnant she stands up to the bad guy despite him being armed, she don't take no shit. Love that movie. Also I liked Katniss she's badass and in a realistic way, she doesn't beat the shit out of men who are twice her size, she's smart and uses her knowledge well as well as her skill with the bow.

[@galepowers886]

Honestly, I feel as if Kylo would’ve made a far more interesting main character. Rey feels almost flat to me, we don’t know much about her past or her internal struggles. If anything, we know Kylo more than we know Rey, and this is why so many people love his character. He has flaws, he is so open with his emotions and people relate to that raw side of him. We see his internal struggle way more than we see Rey’s, and (to me) he’s overall a much more realistic character than Rey is. I’m not really sure where I was going with this, but thanks for another amazing video lol

[@glhf2]

Frankly, I think the sequel trilogy might have been more interesting if they had the sequels start with Kylo's apprenticeship to Luke, go through the events where Snoke tempted him, and end when he turns to the dark side.(preferably with some event other than Luke considering to kill him in his sleep...)

[@markj6606]

+glhf2 Apparently, Lucas's plan was to show the character fall, but it looks like he was going to make the same mistake if having him be irredeemable early on.

[@markj6606]

Or how about if Rey (or Kira) was Han and Leia's daughter and had their character traits. That would have been awesome. Why they didn't do this is baffling and a huge mistake.

[@glhf2]

I get the feeling that they were trying a Jaina solo feel without her being a Solo. There seems to be this odd view that there's too many Solos and Skywalkers which, IMO, would be like complaining about the number of Potters and Weasleys in the Harry Potter series. :/

[@markj6606]

+glhf2 That may be true. She doesn't feel like Han and Leia's daughter. It would have been awesome if she has their personalities plus Jedi skills. I thought for sure she is Luke's daughter, but they apparently changed their mind. Luke's death would have more significance. I heard Johnson made a huge list of possibilities before he started which is outrageous. Why didn't they just make her Han and Leia's daughter in The Force Awakens? It's super infuriating. For many reasons, the story of The FA makes more sense if you know she is their daughter, and it would have forced them to write a convincing character with a heroic character arc. Actually, the movie they gave us is almost insubstantial beyond Finn's kind of arc, which was created by Kasdan apparently, and they heavily undermined that character. Kylo does seem like an evil child of Han and Leia. Driver and the writers do a really good job with this. When I go back and watch scenes from the old movies, I can really see the personality resemblance to Han, and it makes Han feel different. I like how Kylo is sneaky like his father. But it's impossible to believe Han and Leia would have such a rage filled, psychopathic son without a convincing backstory to explain it. (There's at least one interesting thing they could have done.) Also his story doesn't work well in The FA, because they never showed his fall and his motives are unclear. His story works better in The Last Jedi, but they made the huge mistake of making him irredeemable in The FA then switching gears to make him Rey's maybe redeemable love interest in The LJ. We know he has to die, because he's a murderer, and it makes Rey feel dispicable and not in a good way. One of the things that must have wounded The LJ from the beginning is their unwillingness to have Rey go to the dark side temporarily or lose. They just want to tease her dark side tendency (and everything else) without much pay off. (The other big mistake was wanting to copy The ESB and RoJ. Their plots are loose, but they are very well written.)

[@xy1374]

Hermione Granger was the strong female character I grew up with, and she's still one of my favorites. I like how she gets her strengths from her smarts and she is brave and has her heart in the right place. Physically, while she does hold her own, she is not the most badass character, yet her book smarts make her indispensable. Also, she does not degrade the male characters ( in the first book, they did kind of act disparaging towards each other, but that eventually changes). The three of them work as a team, and they each have a role to play-Harry and Ron end up saving her ass many times, as well as she theirs. She also has her vulnerable moments, but manages to stay strong.

[@asrelle]

You are forgetting Xena -Warrior Princess. I loved that show 20 years ago, when I was still 7 years old. She was sort of my idol, showing that women could do everything just as good as men. Nowadays I'm a bit desillusionated about the physical strength, though.

[@seribelz]

I really liked her as a kid XD

[@PavanneHalpin]

There were hints that Xena's father was a God. Thus her having great physical strength.

[@mur2932]

Leia is a great strong female character. She's smart and determined and yet she shows emotions and weaknesses. They should've made Ray a little more realistic.

[@moustik31]

I'd love to see more strong female characters with flaws too :)

[@zhutchinson98]

Same

[@scrantonrogueofthesilvertr9031]

Yup. People getting so caught up in writing a female and not a character.

[@u_no8816]

Same

[@hayleyidontwantpeopletokno5623]

And literally all those "strong" female characters do are scream at, boss around, and punch people (mostly the men)

[@rainahead12]

yeah it's really annoying.

[@verzahlerin]

Very well said and thought out! I agree. We're far from alone either as feminists who see some concern with this trend either, I saw one on KZbin touch on it discussing the differences between Book and Film Hermione. Personally, I think the widespread use of it, especially in film, falls under a variant of 'Marketplace Feminism' that we have in storytelling. It's certainly a trope that needs to be discussed, respectfully, more than it is.

[@jenniferkrigbaum2677]

I completely agree about what they did to Hermoine! They dumbed Ron down and gave Hermoine most of his lines and good moments from the books to make her look like she knew everything, and made her into one of Harry's biggest assets. While Ron just tagged along for the ride for comic relief, he barely made any sort of contribution. They took an amazing male character and had to dumb him down to make the female character look way better in every single way (which was so unnecessary because she's naturally very smart and gifted). Book Hermoine was smart but she was also very insecure at times, and that's what I loved about her. Film Hermoine was confident in herself from the first movie to the last, so no growth whatsoever...

[@glhf2]

+1 to both of these comments.

[@darkentity1000]

Ripley is the best example, and I think part of it comes down to the fact that she wasn't even written as a woman in the first place. She was going to be a man, until they decided to make her a woman later on, literally just because they thought audiences wouldn't expect it. The result? It feels completely natural, strangely enough. I think this is because they didn't try and make a point out of it, which is what makes other movies feel like shallow propaganda to some people. Part of it also comes down to the fact that in the universe they created, life is tough aboard these spaceships, and it leaves little room for settling down with children. In fact, in the extended version of Aliens, it's shown that Ripley actually had a daughter, who tragically died of old age while Ripley was in cryo sleep for over 80 years. So this shows that even though she had a child, she still had to work, probably due to a struggling economy or something. In the second movie Aliens, we're introduced to the Colonial Marines. Most of them are male soldiers, but there are two women, being the pilot, and Vasquez. I really like the comradery between all the soldiers, with all their banter and shit talk. Vasquez is the perfect example of the badass female warrior that so many fictions try and portray. She doesn't feel like she's there to one up the men, she's an important part of the team. And when it comes to the playful shit-talk, she can dish it out as well as she can take it. Because all these soldiers are well realized and likeable, it's all the more sad when they all inevitably die.

[@Rp3nr]

First off - ahhh so glad you mentioned Ripley, 'Alien' is one of my all time favorite movies, due in large part to Ripley herself!! I think this is such an important video to make because this trope is so much more complicated than people think. Like you said, in our current pop culture media "strong females" are dominating -- which is great, if done well -- but this leads to a lot of writers / directors not understanding what this truly means, and leading to what's happened since the dawn of time in storytelling, not giving female characters the breadth of development they deserve. When not handled well, it leads to incredibly, flat, boring, basic and unrealistic women who just have the attribute of "strong" plopped on them and then are expected to be hailed as the next "feminist icon", when it's just writers trying to cash in on this trope without taking the time to actually flesh out and develop the complex female characters that we need and deserve. One thing it also seems to create is a troubling dichotomy of "strong female character" or "weak female character" because if the character isn't made to be this traditionally badass warrior she's inherently seen as weak, which isn't the case at all, because strong women can come in all forms, and it only serves to highlight the fact that male characters have been written with such a range but female characters seem to always be boiled down to a single defining trait. It makes me so frustrated to see these "strong female characters" who are just lazily written, and inherently bring more problems to the table than they fix just because some writer thinks they understand the complexities that come with it. Once again, great video, and thanks for sticking it out for my long winded comments! :D

[@JordanHarveybooks]

YES! Thank you, what a great comment. It's such a complicated thing, and such a loaded time, but writers sometimes don't seem to appreciate that. Seriously thank you for writing out your comments, they are always so intelligent and insightful!

[@GnarledStaff]

Rachel Stewart I would argue that male characters are treated this way too. They are either badass warriors or wimps who cannot fight. The “Smart guy” trope tends to make “nerdy” people, particularly men, incapable of combat. There is a genre/subgenre of the pathetic man (classic antihero) who is trust into the story happening right now. We have this Big Bang Theory idea of what smart people are; that show shows the man characters- one of which survives intense astronaut training and is a black belt- as pathetic incompetent cowards unable to throw a punch or throw a frisbee. Granted, it is not to the extent of how poorly women are often portrayed. The last Die Hard movie actually used this trope well in having the small nerdy man prove himself in the eyes of the badass father (partially by taking a bullet, which is a pretty high bar). But even that supports my point- the nerd cant just be competent; he has to be either a coward or a badass. The time spent in between those two extremes is where most people stand and is almost never portrayed- and then generally as a transitional period.

[@Indrea13]

This channel needs more recognition. You're amazing!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Andrea O. Thank you!!

[@donnawalczak3354]

I expected the "OG strong female Protagonist" to be Buffy. I guess it's weird, but I never felt I lacked those complex, strong female characters growing up, at least in television. And I think a lot of that was because of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[@Satellite2]

Yes someone finally said it! I've been feeling the same way about strong female characters for years now, but everyone thinks it's an amazing trope. But I just it can be good, but also be done so wrong, especially if the trope is overused. Thanks for another awesome video Jordan!!

[@chemccord]

I find it weird how often comics are just straight up ignored up till the last 4 years for female characters like storm and Wonder Woman weren’t leaders for years in their respective universes

[@Darth-Kora]

Everyone talking about strong female characters seems to be using the wrong definition of the word strong. Strong for this context doesn't mean physically strong, but strength of character writing. A strong character regardless of sex is well written- you understand their motivations, they make sense, and fit the story. You don't even have to like them either - there are many strong villain characters that are despicable. There also strong characters that are physically weak.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

For sure, but in this video I'm talking specifically about the physically strong female character trope!

[@kimberlycasey5957]

When I was first learning to write the complaint was that female characters tended to be flat and poorly developed. The push for "stronger female characters" was a push for *better written* female characters. Physically strong characters can still be weak as characters if they are poorly realized.

[@beejcarson]

I firmly believe Rey being trained by Leia would have been amazing. One of the most iconic heroines in film training the next generation could have been so memorable. Not only would Rey learn about the Force but also leadership and how to inspire others.

[@Ni-boo]

I'm glad I got to grow up with Xena: Warrior Princess, Charmed, Buffy, Terminator, The Matrix, The X-Files... Though, books are a different story.

[@billyjones-1996]

Really fantastic analysis, been following your videos since the Star Wars review and been really enjoying them. I thought what you said about characters being better when they're not made to express a certain political/social position was cool because that reminded me that when I was younger I was repelled by things that were "girly" - but if the characters were well written and relatable there was no issue (not that there's anything wrong with things being girly, but you know how little boys are). To that end, want to give a special shoutout to Mulan for being a great character, at least to me. Mulan was always my favourite Disney movie as a kid because she just seemed like a really cool person and just wanted to protect her family even though she sorta sucked at everything - plus the romance in the film seemed incidental rather than the focus of the plot, which was pretty neat. Hopefully younger people nowadays have more well written characters to look up to from than we did back then

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I LOVE Mulan!! She's one of my favourite disney characters as well. And yeah, a character that's written well, no matter the gender, is going to communicate equality better than trying to push that through a character. It's also just much more enjoyable to the reader :)

[@billyjones-1996]

Cheers for the reply :) also I was gonna mention since you brought up Ripley - perhaps you already know but I've heard in various places that Ripley was originally written as a male character but they only made her a woman when they cast Sigourney Weaver. I think that says it all really.

[@kevininrb]

In terms of modern cinema, many of the main female protagonists in the last fifteen years DO seem to come across as "mary sues," "special snowflakes," and/or "disney princesses," in that they have extraordinary skills and are lacking in moral flaws or shortcomings. It's basically a pure-at-heart "madonna" figure combined with a bad-ass "Xena, Warrior Princess" figure. They are not particularly believable. I'm glad you mentioned Sigourney Weaver's portrayal of Ellen Ripley in Alien and Aliens; one of the best "strong women" characterizations in cinema. One you missed was Linda Hamilton's portrayal of Sarah Connor in Terminator and Terminator 2. In both cases their character's development and abilities are perfectly in sync with the circumstances they have been forced to endure within their respective story lines. Niether of these characters are "Mary Sues." (Sarah Connor is considered a lunatic as a result of what has been revealed to her, and Ellen Ripley is struggling both with the horrors she has been exposed to, as well as the loss of her daughter to old age as a result of drifting through space in suspended animation.) I am increasingly of the opinion that so many difficult-to-believe female characters are not so much the product of inadvertently bad writing so much as deliberate marketing manipulation. If the goal of modern film making is just profit, then it makes sense to use techniques that generate money, rather than techniques that generate memorable stories and characters.

[@DirectorWestfield]

I’m glad that I was finally able to find someone on KZbin that is thinking critically about how Rey has become a problematic character. Most videos only want to bash her to push a reactionary agenda or defend her to push a shallow liberal pop/corporate feminist agenda. (I hope that my last statement doesn’t sound like I’m alt-right/MRA.) I initially liked Rey (now that I realize it) because Daisy Ridley made something out the character and admittedly because I held out hope that she was Luke’s daughter. I initially didn’t think that she was a Mary Sue and defended against that assertion even though I was bothered by how powerful she was being portrayed. After watching TLJ I have an extremely hard time defending the notion that she’s not a Mary Sue and to make things worse she hasn’t grown in any meaningful way as a character. She pretty much doesn’t have a story arc aside from the one that she was given in the prior film. If anything Finn has the most interesting character arc in TFA and a somewhat less interesting on in TLJ. While I don’t hate TLJ or think that it was a terrible film, it is indeed a movie that clearly shows that it was written in a boardroom by out of touch producers. More specifically they were very heavy handed in the scripting process.

[@mbeacom21]

Great talk! My oldest daughter is 9 years old is now really getting into reading. So I'm on the hunt for reading material that will engage her young mind while not propagandize her. She just finished The Land of Stories and she loved it.

[@JuliaSapphire]

I loved this discussion yess👏💖

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks Julia! :)

[@biancam.5864]

Vida Connor from the Darkest Minds series is a great example of a strong female character done well. She is physically strong and very harsh towards most of the characters. But she does have people she loves, like Cate (who she sees as an older sister figure), and eventually, Ruby, Zu, Chubs and sorta Liam. She ends up in a more or less functional relationship with a man (we don't get to see that much of it, though) and she stops relying on hostility so much to get her points across.

[@Zimzilla99]

I really enjoyed this analysis of the trope. It established the flaw with a lot of writing with this trope but makes sure you point out that it is only a majority and not a complete overview. I also really liked that you pointed out that this trope is associated with sending a message. In my own writing I have been trying to keep as detached and displaying ideologies and mindsets and letting the reader decide what they agree with.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I think that's the best way to go :)

[@Zimzilla99]

Jordan Harvey thank you

[@Zimzilla99]

Midnight Rose thank you very much

[@midnightrose6868]

Zimzilla 99 Thank you for letting the reader decide what’s what with your writing. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a author blatantly prefers one character over another and manipulates the narrative and tries to manipulate the reader into preferring that character too. Not letting the reader decide for themselves what they think. It’s one of many reasons I can’t stand the ACOTAR trilogy from SJMAAS. Great video Jordan 😊

[@theopollind8024]

This may be a long stretch, but if you've ever watched the anime My Hero Academia, they have a sleuth of strong female characters: basically all of the main female students there are arguably well-represented strong women, you know, if you've become desensitized with all the objectification japanese animators have for women. Love your video!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I'll check it out! I love anime.

[@theopollind8024]

you don't have to; I actually like your videos more if it's organic. But if you'll ever need for a recommendation, I'd rather you try Chihayafuru (either the anime or the live action movie) because it's got a nuanced main female character, and the cinematography as well as the use of video as a medium of art is actually really good! In any case, I honestly appreciate your thoughts more when you end up making new videos on things you discover on your own! :D keep it up!

[@xuanathan]

Froppy is stuck with just the powers of a frog, yet still ends up as one of the most powerful students in class a. Froppy is a perfect example.

[@bottlecapster9586]

I definitely agree with you on this. It's far more important to me that you establish a strong character before you try to establish your political message. Strength comes in so many different ways, and as writers it's important for us to show the strengths our characters have, especially in contrast to their weaknesses. It's fine for characters to be political, it's fine for them to convey a political message, but they should not just be an example of your political message if you want them to be compelling and complex. It's really unfortunate how "Strong Female Character" has become a sort of catch-all for female characters who are only superficially strong, or are just empty beyond the 'strong' labels attached to them. Hell, take away the Gendered Window-dressing and you're just left with an inherent writing issue that's applicable to virtually any character. We don't tend to talk about Strong Male Characters, but the same issues of superficiality exist in many characters of that type as well. In a way it may potentially be because the market for generic male character is so saturated and lacking in expectation that it almost takes characters that exist at least one dimension apart to highlight the issues inherent to weak writing. I know I definitely have a long way to go with my own writing, but I wonder how useful it could be if we shifted the conversation to the underpinning issues rather than the gendered focus. Either way, glad I watched this, now I have a few things to think over and some more cross-checking to do with my own characters.

[@Em_Elizabeth]

Yeah, I've had a teacher mock this trope and say that it's wrong to glorify strong females as role models. I don't like how it gets pushed so much but come on, what am I supposed to do in the face of misunderstandings? Be weak, cry in the corner and wait for prince charming or grow a backbone and solve my own problems?

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Yeah, that's horrible

[@ClaireCaseyWriter]

Being a writer and a Viking re-enactor, I love strong female characters, but I so agree with you, they have to have weaknesses, flaws and emotions. It makes them human and relatable. The same with any characters that readers should be rooting for.

[@samuelbird4622]

THANK YOU for clarifying the strength of a female character is not in their physicality or overpowering of men, but in their relatability, vulnerability, and strength of character despite flaws and failures! Great points, Jordan!

[@inotaishu1]

I would not call Clary, Tessa and whatever her name is now, as strong female characters either. They are claimed as such but they are incredibly passive and don't drive the plot, it is the guys who do so. Clary and Tessa are so passive they cannot even use their almost godlike powers right. And boy are they horrible people.

[@christinajoshy7473]

I entirely understand what you mean about Clary. I don't think she was done well. And by no means am I asserting that Tessa was a perfect character. But I do find her admirable and relatable. I am guessing Clare's intent with The Infernal Devices was not a strong female character driven tale. But a tale mostly that deals with development within Victorian society, a new perspective into women who are diligent not docile. And the men. Will and Jem are well loved and they have their issues. But I find them flawed. And I like that. Will is not the perfect boy. Jem isn't either. And I like that. This by no means was to hate. I entirely respect your opinion. 🙂

[@HelloWorld-yg7bp]

inotaishu1 I like Tessa more than Clary ( I like TID more than TMI) I find Clary to be kind of insufferable and selfish. She treats Simon horribly (especially in the first 2 books). She keeps choosing Jace, a guy she barely knows, over Simon her best friend. She’s constantly ignoring, dismissing, and forgetting Simon and yet he keeps coming to her defense all the time. She brings everything back to her relationship with Jace. She blames everything on everyone else. Her entire storyline is wrapped around Jace, that’s how she’s developed, her relationship to what’s happening in his life. Don’t even get me started on Jace. I would rather much read about Simon and Isabelle. I liked the Shadowhunters books but I read them when I was younger. I don’t think I would be able to read them now especially the new series with Emma as the protagonist. Cassandra Clare recycles her characters and storylines. Example: Will and Jace - sarcastic bad boys with a sad backstory. She also loves the forbidden love trope (Jace and Clary, Emma and Julian). I can’t stand all the love triangles and all the annoying angst. Also CCs deaths are predictable. She kills of Max, the lightwoods younger sibling and Livvy, the Blackthorns sibling. Those were the 2 major deaths in her books.

[@ABDR4]

It sounds like maybe you’re more of a Christina Hoff Summers equity feminist, if I’m understanding you correctly. I think it’s important to use that terminology since just “feminist” on its own has become so toxic. What I’m really tired of is pretending like none of the female characters I watched & read about when I was a kid didn’t exist, and the 80s & 90s weren’t that long ago. Eowyn, Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha & Egwayne, Leia, Ripley, Sarah Conner, Marion Ravenwood, the Romanas, Sarah Jane Smith, Dr. Crusher, Major Kira, Jadzia Dax, Khey’lar, B’Elanna Torres & Kathryn Janeway.

[@gunnar6674]

The Red Ajah has taken over the Ivory Cinderella Castle and stilled the Last Jedi.

[@vgmaster9]

Don't forget Sidney Prescott.

[@artmin100]

I prefer my female character to be interesting first, like any other character regardless of gender, race, strength or strong is just one of many tools that should not be used to categorize who they are.

[@GnarledStaff]

For a good female character look up Patricia Briggs. I particularly like her Mercy series. The main character is a human strength shifter who deals with overpowered werewolves frequently. She can hold her own in a fight... but is “squishy” enough (lacking superhealing) that she has to use her mind to solve problems. She is manipulative- using her mind to position people both to her benefit and their own good. I highly recommend this author and series.

[@TheSlyRise]

I love writing about female strong lead characters because I love exploring the emotions as well as the physical skills. Each character is seen as an underdog but makes the smart decisions, hard choices and win most of the fights. Not all of them though. The power women have for me in this IRL is nurturing, emotionally inspiring, driven to fight harder, they look for multiple ways to attack all subjects due to going misunderstood. I see beauty on the same scale is intellect and humor. And character that possess that are why books are more compelling. Men are seen as too weak or too strong or boring, it's hard for me to make a dynamic guy character with him being seen as soft or Overpowered.

[@TheSlyRise]

As a guy I hate the strong male trope but both male and female both being strong together sounds awesome.

[@DrEllert]

I agree, I find male protagonists kinda boring most times. I mean, we already heard that like a million times... writers should at least try to come up with something new.

[@yinsiade7785]

Omg I’m soo glad you mentioned that these “strong” heroines are often emotionally detached/mean/unapproachable (which I lowkey feel like is Katniss, as much as I love HG). Like obviously all heroines don’t have to be super perky/bubbly/LET’S ALL BE FRIENDS types but I worry that my protagonist or those like her won’t be considered “strong” bc she doesn’t have that Katniss/Tris/Mare from Red Queen unapproachable personality

[@markj6606]

It would have been awesome if Rey joined Snoke and replaced Kylo at the end of the Last Jedi, and it makes a lot of sense. This could have topped Empire for a cliffhanger.

[@OcarinaSapphr-]

Mark J Or if she *had* joined Kylo...

[@ClaireCaseyWriter]

I do hope that the two female main characters in my trilogy are strong female characters, just as you described. Hoping to publish it at the end of August/start of September.

[@Phanto5692]

I don't think the battle with Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens counts. Kylo was previously injured (Chewie blasted him in the leg). He was bleeding, And he was pissed. In short, he wasn't in his right mind to fight both Rey and Finn let alone Rey. Rey didn't so much as win that first battle as she survived until The Force literally threw a chasm between them. Now The Last Jedi I can agree with you on that.

[@herautdeDieu]

I love The bride in kill Bill she is a strong female character..one of my favourite characters ever.I thought you she will be on your list.Smart and great video as always :)

[@williammccoll5563]

You are a very smart, kind person and I hope you never change and your easy on the eyes. Dont let negative people get you down, usually those people have problems and we need let them know its not ok and we wont tolerate such bullying.

[@moustik31]

ps: the quality of your videos has improved, good work.

[@cat5220]

I was literally having such a crappy day struggling through organic chemistry and then I saw this and I was just like YAAAAAAASS!!!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Aww that's so sweet!

[@laurathevaos3287]

Good words, good thoughts, excellent job of communicating your opinion. I couldn’t agree more.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Thanks for your vid. I recently found your channel and I enjoy your sharing your voice on these tropes. I like the protagonist of Star Wars: Rogue One, Jin. You take everything that is celebrated as powerful in the Star Wars universe and take it away from her, she is not a Jedi, senator, queen, military leader, Sith servant, or witch. She is even a criminal on her way to trial and certain prison, yet she is still strong. She was the reason they won against the Death Star because she finds her integrity, was so full of hope and was willing to go rogue and sacrifice everything to send the engineer’s plans. I loved her concept and execution.

[@Nethseaar]

So much yes! I would love for there to be more fiction which actually explores what it is to be a woman, rather than what it is to be a manly woman -- and, for female characters who are physically strong and competent in fighting skills, to have greater depth of characterization (What is it to be an female action hero? how is she different from a male action hero? what perspectives and skills and strengths does she bring to the role because she is female?), and interesting failures to make their successes all the more rewarding. I love the Indiana Jones example of characters being allowed to fail and to be defeated despite their competence --- let's have a little more of that from our female action heroes. And let's have protagonists which are supportive of both genders, rather than tearing down their opposite. Amen! Thanks for a refreshingly positive and constructive video on the subject!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

No problem! Glad you enjoyed the video :)

[@arriyanaf883]

I was just watching your videos about female tropes so this is right up my alley lol

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Aha perfect!

[@dianag.2491]

Definitely agree with your interpretation of a "strong female character"! Contrary to what the trope has become recently, women showing weaknesses strengthens, not weakens, her character, and make them so much more real and relatable. However, on a little more personal note, I don't see the big problem in Rey being overpowered. After decades of media -shows, movies and books alike- showing us male characters who are constantly overly competent and getting everything they want on the first try, of besting their female teachers or rivals and surpassing them easily, it was incredibly fresh to see this with a female character in such a big, main franchise. I won't disagree with the contradictions of her personality, and I'm not as savvy on Star Wars as to think of explanations as to WHY she's as op as she is, but, honestly, every time someone complains about this aspect of her character I wonder where those disgruntled people were when the male protagonists were incredibly overpowered and no one blinked.

[@eglathren]

I agree with you, and I think that unrealistically strong female characters can sometimes do more harm than good (Rey drove the Millenium Falcon without training better than Han Solo - woah why can't I, a woman in the real world, do the same to prove men wrong?! What's wrong with me? Why did this have to happen and reinforce the internalised misogyny my male peers already have?!), and being a feminist myself as well I believe that a character proves to be the strongest because of the choices they make in their moments of vulnerability, and how they deal with the consequences of their choices; also, how they deal with things that happen to them that they can't control, and what they do to try and take back that control :)

[@jenniferkrigbaum2677]

Great video once again! :) I totally thought the same thing about Rey and the dark side. I remember throughout the movie, I kept thinking "Oh? Are they really gonna do this? Okay I'm down for that, I can see this taking the story to a whole new lev - oh no wait she's still good, never mind then -_-" I like what you said about what makes a strong female character also makes a strong male character. What makes a strong character has NOTHING to do with gender. I've had high expectations for characters ever since I started my own writing journey and I can care less whether the main protagonist is male or female, just as long as they are a well-written character with believable motivations, flaws, development and is relatable. I like that you compared her to Anakin. Because even though people hated the prequels, they still managed to write a main character who was yes, very powerful, but also very flawed. He was arrogant and had some anger issues after the death of his mom. He made mistakes and SUFFERED the consequences for it. Rey doesn't suffer any sort of consequence when she made a mistake (if she ever does make a mistake) and that's what makes it difficult for audiences to relate to her. That's why it's hard to even root for her, because if the writers continue down their current path, Rey is going to be fine no matter what happens to her...

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Totally agree! I don't think Anakin is a character to aspire to write or anything, but at least he had a bit of a journey. Rey is really hard to define and I'm not really sure if she's going to change or grow at all.

[@reader9976]

One of the strongest female character I have ever read is Carrie Vaughn's Kitty series. The 14 book series takes you on Kitty's journey from a college student who is traumatized by an out of the blue werewolf attack and is therefore stuck in an abusive relationship (Pack), to someone who finds the strength to fight free, then to fight back, and finally to fight to save others facing the same problems. The thing I find strongest about Kitty though is that she doesn't do all, or even most of her fighting physically, she does it through talking.

[@ev6564]

Before I start rambling, I want to say that I'm thinking about internal strength. I'm thinking about that girl Celana (is that how you spell it?). It's okay for people to consider a character like that strong if it's only physically. What I think is wrong is when people start taking physically strength as internal strength also. I always roll my eyes when people picture the height of a great female character as a hot, young, physically able, and violent character. Yes, they're bada** and physically strong but why does that make them so great overall? Of course, you can be pretty, a teen, able and kick a** and be internally strong but those aren't the qualities that'll give you internal strong. A mother, weak and frail physically, that still beats her back to take care of her family will forever be a stronger character than a young, hot, girl assassinating a whole much of people. Or a girl getting bullied that grows up to be successful despite her bullies, and so many others. But if a special snowflake character like Clary (which I do like btw) is how all of us need to aspire to be, then many of us are going to fall flat. I'm a teenage girl and these books are making me think: where are my powers at? lol

[@PelenTan]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I really hadn't realized there had been a dry spell of strong female leads. If you want to see _real_ strong female leads, check out Katherine Hepburn. Especially African Queen. Or Nichelle Nichols' Lt. Uhura, especially in the second season of the original Star Trek. These are the inspirations for my female characters that I put into my books. The big problem I have with a lot of the "strong female" leads that are being tossed out, is that they are mostly whinny little girls pretending to be women. Rey in Star Wars is a perfect example. They have no real backstory to explain why they are strong. And the truth is, no one is born strong. They grow strong. And no recent character has shown that.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

True! I think that's the part that's missing from most strong female characters today that is leaving everyone annoyed or underwhelmed. Thanks for the comment! :)

[@PelenTan]

Again, I agree. And it's getting to the point where people expect that to be the case. They are so used to having to accept un-fleshed out characters, that they start to assume any strong female lead isn't going to have it. One of the critiques of the female lead in my first book was that she was a "Mary Sue". Meaning she could do too many things well: Star ship pilot, control the Aether, really good leader, etc. Which I can sort of understand as in the first book I make it clear she is very young. It's not until the second book that it's revealed she's very young _for her race_. She's only 150 years old. But the person who was critiquing wasn't ready to give the character a chance because he had been burned so many times before.

[@kyushirokun]

Kinda late to the party but i liked the video :) My main fixes regarding fictional literature are web novels these days, and your video made me think about what i have been reading. Quite a few strong female characters in there. I also noticed i really like my character building arcs regardless of gender, makes being "powerful" more relatable i'm guessing. The most prominent example that came to mind is Taylor Hebert from the superhero webnovel "Worm"". She starts out as an insecure bullied young woman with an admittedly crappy power and everyday problems. Then she has to face OP opponents, and as the story unfolds we see her develop the resourcefulness and creativity that ultimately lead her to become powerful. Excellent story that interestingly blur the lines between hero and villain, i'd recommend reading it if anyone is looking for their next literary adventure.

[@jdovma1]

"Overcompensation." Exactly how I've been describing how JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan handled Rey in The Force Awakens. When you have two men trying very hard to write a strong woman... sometimes they don't know how to, and wind up afraid to give her flaws and frailties. We need more Ellen Ripleys. Not more superstar everythings. Or how about more "what we don't know we need". New forms of female characters that bend or shatter expectations. But can we stop equating "strong female" with "kickass" or "badass"? Lady Olenna might be the strongest female character I've ever seen. There's no suspension of disbelief required. Nothing in the world phases her. Just unflappable even confronted with defeat and death. Absolutely loved that character.

[@BrightNeonBrilliancy]

Unpopular opinion- I think Sansa Stark from GoT is a great female character. She starts out as a naive, bratty child but learns and grows using nothing but her own survival skills. She never once learns to fight or is thought of as being physically strong, but she's manages to go from prisoner and abused wife to the Lady of Winterfell, a job she does very well. She's conventionally feminine in many ways, but I don't think that means she's not strong. She plays the game to survive, and she does it better than a lot of her family that have died before her. I think Arya is great too, but I often see people hating on Sansa as if they can only like one of the Stark sisters. They are both strong, just in different ways.

[@OcarinaSapphr-]

So true - people seem to act as if Arya's physical strength is more important than Sana's emotional strength, or that Sansa's other skills are less than Arya's 'cool assassin' skillz - the real world shouldn't work like that - there's more than one perspective, & sometimes subtlty gets the job done just as well, if not better than brute force- even if it seems less *awesome*

[@aeshiryzenaeschirett5415]

All is loss now when people think that a strong female character has to act badass or masculine to be considered as a strong characters the same way how effeminate/non-badass males are frown upon.

[@henrideveroux8690]

For anyone who wants to see some of the best examples of "Strong Female characters done right," should check out the Serrano Legacy and Vatta's War, both by Elizabeth Moon. Both feature female MC's that are smart, capable, commanding (in a good way), while not losing one of the most important things about the SFC, their femininity.

[@ClefairyFairySnowflake]

You should totally do more trope talk videos! Those are my fave. ❤

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I will!

[@Bladezeromus]

Another good female character is Amelia from the Babadook. She's a tired widow trying to raise a slightly disturbed kid, when an eldritch horror decides to terrorize them. The Babadook manages to take over her body, by exploiting her fatigue and frustration and damn near causes her to kill her son; but through love and strength of character, she breaks free, beats the Babadook (It can't actually hurt you, you just have to stand up to it), then proceeds to tame it and keep it as a pet in the basement (because you can never get rid of the Babadook)

[@farikalines1169]

Awesome video! These are good advices which can also be applied to write good characters (female/male/others) in general! Writers just need to focus on good characterization and writing fundamentals. They have to be wary of bad stereotypes but it doesn't mean their female character needs to be flawless.

[@petrairene]

Rey from Star Wars is not a strong woman, Rey is a Mary Sue. A female character who is instantly great at everything and beloved by every other character without having to work for it. If you want a strong female character in cinema, Ellen Ripley is the woman to go to.

[@RealVincent1989]

she's great at everything your male faves did and you had no complaints

[@sparrowthesissy2186]

I feel like a lot of the popular criticisms of Rey's character straight up ignore things that happen in the movies. She can fly the Falcon, yet the very first thing she does when controlling it is smash it into the floor. She can hack ships, and she accidentally releases the Rathtars. She figures out the mind trick, but after she's interrogated with the force so she knows it has mind control capabilities, and she also fails the first couple of times she tries it on a random soldier. She's said to not be seduced enough by the dark side when she basically falls in love with the face of the dark side. She almost kills Chewie. She constantly clings to ideas of a home that don't exist. She dies. I mean there are very many instances of her not being perfect but because she eventually outperforms everybody else she's somehow a one-dimensional femme fatale according to the internet. And yes, she's weak and then she's strong, because her character shows growth, and because she's actually somewhat complex for an action movie hero. That's not erratic storytelling, that's writing a character that isn't just Superman with a wig on. What gets me worse is that so many of the criticisms are rarely anything you would hear leveled against a male character in genre fiction. Is she the best character ever written? No, she keeps a lot to her self and there are parts about her we're never told, but we see who she sides with and what she'll do to save those she cares about over and over again and that is more important than her giving speeches about trade policies in the galactic senate or whatever the hell people expected to see from her. /rant

[@nestorsifuentesaguirre2722]

I dare you to talk like that to the completely full of shit fandom

[@Joeyal123]

Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor is a good example of well written strong females and Katniss and Clarice Starling

[@fursecela]

I think you should read some of Brandon Sanderson's books, if you haven't already ! He not only has complex female characters, but all of his characters have lots of layers and depth to them. I especially recommend the Mistborn series or The Stormlight archives ! I could write a 10000 words comments on why Brandon's characters are so great and strong, not only psychically, but psychology as well, but I m on a deadline now and if it go down the rabbit whole I won't stop! I occured to me you might enjoy it because he also has some great lectures about writing and building worlds, plots etc.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I've read the first mistborn book, and while I liked it I didn't LOVE it. I think the characters were good, it just didn't get it's hooks in me. His lectures are great though!

[@iknowfacebutidontknowname5880]

7:55 Well, I don't know about Clary, but Celaena? I mean I did have the same impression after reading the first book of ToG, but I don't think anyone could say that after reading the whole series. Especially her character developement in Heir of Fire is amazing, although you can't really explain it without spoiling the first three books.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Again, only read the first book. In that book though, she barely does anything.

[@iknowfacebutidontknowname5880]

Jordan Harvey Ugh,I know, it really drove me crazy in the first book!

[@alliebenson4653]

As I was watching this I was thinking about all the books I read growing up which contained female characters that drove the story, and that I still love to this day. And actually, a huge number of them were pre-Hunger Games, and few of them were super physically strong or super badass. They were just realistic, complex girls/women who lead the story and who I was really inspired by, and who were treated as equal to the male characters. - Mary Lennox in The Secret Garden - please read the book, not just watch the film. The book is beautiful and shows how Mary, a genuinely spoiled and unpleasant girl, brings a miserable household of people back to life purely through being open-minded, determined, and curious. She's not a fighter or super strong or super sassy, but she was a good-hearted child who found her way out of her own selfish mind and helped others in the process. - Maria Merryweather in The Little White Horse - another beautiful novel featuring a young girl whose decisions, curiosity and determination drive the story. She's a middle-class girl with no special talents, but she is resourceful, kind, and stubborn to a fault, and I adored her. I still think she was a fantastic female protagonist and this children's book is not talked about enough. - Laura Chant in The Changeover - my favourite novel of all time. Laura was a perfectly normal 14-year-old girl living in suburban New Zealand who just happened to be able to sense witches. She turns to them for help when her little brother becomes ensnared by an evil spirit, and in the course of events becomes a witch herself. Laura again doesn't have any wild talents; she doesn't become super-powerful overnight; she's intelligent and determined without being rude and overbearing but she can hold her own and stand up for herself, and make decisions. She, to me, is the epitome of a strong female character and this book is so beautifully written and constructed that it is a masterpiece in its own right. - Angharad 'Harry' Crewe in The Blue Sword - a great fantasy novel, published in 1987. Harry is bored with her life when she's kidnapped by a tribe of people and gradually becomes one of them, and helps them to win a battle. Yes, she develops strength and powers, but it doesn't happen instantly and is a very organic process. She maintains her sense of self and personality through the challenges she faces, is able to make decisions that drive the plot, and is just an all-round brilliant female character without all the in-your-face 'I AM A STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER' tropes that are suffocating young adult fiction today. I just wanted to demonstrate that there are plenty of novels, written sometimes decades before Katniss Everdeen came onto the scene, with amazing female protagonists who are strong in different and interesting ways. This is why I think it's so important to read widely; all these characters have stuck with me for my entire life, and I highly recommend that people step out of their book comfort zone from time to time!

[@MrColuber]

For whatever reason, this video of yours reminded me of Actman's review of Battlefront II - STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST!

[@TheSpawnfan]

My favorite is still Ellen Ripley, she survived the Xenomorphs. Furiosa is awesome as well.

[@jenniferanderson7010]

The Nineties had SG1: Sam Carter. DS9: Major Kira Nerys and Lt. Jadzia Dax. B5: Delenn and Lt. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Xena, Warrior Princess. So, we did have some back then, as well, and all fully realized characters.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

For sure! But those, I believe are all from film and tv, not books. And for my generation, we didn't have as much!

[@NapaCat]

Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a great show with well-written female leads. Madoka isn't physically strong and needs a lot of physical protection but is _emotionally_ resilient and is extremely hardy (certainly not invincible emotionally) in terms of it. Sayaka is a strong fighter but very not-well-adjusted emotionally, etc.

[@bethxnytxmlin]

I really thought Rey was going to end up on the dark side and Fin and she were going to battle or something and he’d have to kill the girl he loved... something like that but instead Rey “fought” the dark side for ten minutes and kissed Kylo Ren out of nowhere and Fin doesn’t even matter😭

[@thesingingbookworm6201]

So many great points in this video! I'm so glad you added the note that it's important not to normalize characters degrading each other no matter the gender. I get really frustrated with female characters who are perfect and flaunt their perfection in the face of the hapless male main character, but of course when the female character is weak and the male character constantly berates her for it, it's no good either. I love your videos, Jordan. ♥️

[@ThatFont]

I had to check a couple times to make sure I liked this video 🙏🏻👍🏻

[@ItsTheCatSpeaking24]

I think it all comes down to our understandings of the word "strong"- at the moment and for a long time, our understanding of a strong woman was what society perceives to be a strong man i.e. not emotional, physically strong etc. We need to widen this definition and see that a strong woman can be emotional or mentally strong and clever

[@JordanHarveybooks]

For sure! I was specifically discussing the trope of "strong female characters" in this video (the physically strong, non-emotional variety), and NOT the strength of female characters in the broader sense.

[@ClaireYunFarronXIII]

I love this video! As a writer I this as an educational video. I need my friend to see this. She needs it. I am a proud Feminist. Female characters used to be hard for me write, sort of. Now they are easy (still hard). I enjoy writing them much more than male characters.

[@marcoeckhoff9920]

The Hunger Games had been the FIRST?!? Are you kidding me?! Hunger Games 2012 Underworld 2003 Buffy the Vampire Slayer 1992 Terminator 2 1991 Alien/Aliens 1979/1986 Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind 1984 Star Wars 1977 And why the F does a srong female need to be "physical strong"?

[@shinysanie]

Ooooof i love your videos and your makeup is always so beautiful idk why i haven´t subscribed earlier

[@savioursgaming9562]

Dude, dude! Your make up is *gorgeous!!* :O

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thank you!!

[@savioursgaming9562]

@@JordanHarveybooks Welcome♡

[@lucbauer]

Strong Female Characters existed in cinema for decades. The best ones i can tell are Ripley from Alien, Sarah Connor from T2 and Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill. Rey is not even a female protagonist because she is a feminist propaganda. She doesnt learn anything, just unlocks her innate skills given to her by the Force because "The Force is female".

[@mm.124]

I don't think it started with Katniss and the Hunger Games, it started way earlier than that for the strong female archetype. It started in myths and legends with goddesses like Anat and Athena and spread throughout the years, despite there mostly being male protagonists in the day. I think it was probably thanks to characters like Wonder Woman and Nancy Drew that really popularized the strong woman archetype. However, it was mostly through mystery, fantasy, horror and sci-fi we might see a few of them appear.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

It definitely didn't start with Katniss, and after a few comments like this, it's obvious I wasn't being clear enough. I simply meant that for my generation (kids born around 1995 and later) Katniss popularized it in the way that Wonder Woman and many sci-fi and fantasy characters did for previous generations!

[@P326Star]

I got so excited when I heard Ripley mentioned. 😍

[@happygrace6458]

Waiting for your book miss Jordan Harvey! I love you and your raaants!!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Happy Grace ahh, thank you! Xx

[@happygrace6458]

omg!! Hi!! You're sooo cool and courageous by posting these book rants and I could totally relate especially to your Red Queen and Throne of Glass rants!! -- The world and the booktube community needs more people like you Queeen!!

[@emilynorris9303]

Thank you! This is the second video I've seen which lines up perfectly with what I think. Don't create strong females or males. Create strong people. There's so much more to what creates strength, and it's counterproductive to have a character be strong just because they're a woman or just because they're a man. What makes you strong, is surviving the darkest of the dark, getting up when you're knocked down etc. I want more than just swinging swords.