Twilight Imperium: Prophecy of Kings - Long Live The King?

[@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast]

We're here when you need us, Matt. We can help you right this ship. Allow us to show you the light again...

[@StriderZessei]

Next episode idea?

[@chojindan]

SCPT! Show Matt the light!

[@DoctorOzelot]

Yeah. While no one can or should be forced to like a game or expansion, I really feel Matt just didn't "get" it... To me POK is a clear improvement.

[@simonsmith8742]

Yeah I would watch that Twitch stream

[@bluecarbon]

@@DoctorOzelot I mean, if his only test game was with the Mahact, I can understand why it didn't click. I'm a fan of them, but they aren't... easily grokked.

[@tristan8940]

Those space highways aren’t primarily made to help you zoom around the galaxy; they balance the map for 5-player games, so that everyone has the same amount of space as in a 6-player game. It’s an official addition that fans have been using for years.

[@gershsgaming8673]

"Anyone who wants this already definitely has it." ...I feel seen.

[@thelovepig]

same

[@aearroyo]

Me too. I'm a fan of Twilight Imperium and Prophecy of Kings but the point he makes about the complexity of the expansion meaning people are more burrowed into their own situation with less awareness of the broader environment is dead on. Another point that isn't touched on enough is how the increase in faction-specific abilities makes it much harder to have a sense of what the likely consequences of your actions are going to be (for example, the Xxcha player informing you that his Mechs all have space cannon and so does his flagship and he has long range cannons so you're going to get shot 6,382 times before you resolve combat in the system). Hero abilities are also fairly non-interactive, and have a real Jack-Black-in-Anchorman "NOW THIS IS HAPPENING" feel to them.

[@IAteYourAunt]

Wait. Are you telling me, you all already got your copy? We ordered in Nov.2020 and are still waiting for it to arrive.

[@AndrewRichesson]

@@IAteYourAunt yeah, most everyone has a copy now I think

[@TheManCalledZee]

Good. Now turn around...

[@FloralGiant]

"Maybe I've only got 15 - 20 more games of TI left - in my whole life. And that's probably a high estimate." All of my favorite things and hobbies flashed before my eyes and now my anxiety is through the roof thinking about how much time I have left to enjoy them.

[@RecklessFables]

I feel the same about RPG campaigns I have left to GM

[@embir82]

Just start to play TI on TTS. Believe me, 15-20 games count can be achieved very easily in a space of about 2-3 months.

[@saikoujikan]

@@embir82 If one plays nothing else

[@TheSchaef47]

@@saikoujikan ... like what? (j/k I have 200 other games, and many here should call those rookie numbers)

[@Moon920]

This is the main reason I removed the expansion from my copy of TI4. 15-20 games is probably where I'd be if I kept the expansion in but by shaving an hour or two off of play time (by removing the expansion) I can probably get TI4 into more weekly game nights, and that's a major win.

[@mattyrellu]

There are 3 things in life that are certain - death, taxes, and SUSD Twilight Imperium costumes

[@hirosmirnov8287]

I’m adding ‘Let me soothe you with a gigantic caveat’ to my lexicon

[@gabrielnicholas6698]

Great review, though I absolutely love PoK. I think this game was designed for seasoned TI4 players. The main thing PoK changes is that it a) improves everyones' economy (thanks to explore cards and leaders) and b) makes the game more combative (thanks to new, more control-focused objectives.) Pre-PoK, the TI4 meta was all about targeting a few one point objectives - two techs in two colors, eight influence, five trade goods. It became rote. For those players who felt they had the game optimized, PoK did a great job busting that open and making the game far less optimizable overall.

[@usonian74]

"That's so TI!" -- (I really wanted an 80's sitcom stinger attached to this line)

[@Cards0rDice]

Have you played enough regular TI games for them to have become slightly routine? Are you maybe a little tired of waiting for a 2 point spend objective to try and win the game? Get this expansion, you will love it! Is TI still a wonderland of weird rules and abilities to you? I'd hold off on it for now. As soon as you even start to get a little bored though... go get it!

[@michaelvanderwal7390]

Agreed. The expansion adds a lot of randomness that can't be found in the original game. I remember one recent game I had where I was very afraid of some random thing happening that would ruin my win, and I never felt that with the original game. I always knew a turn or two out if I was going to win or not in the base game.

[@usdaprime6648]

Well said

[@Exozik]

@@michaelvanderwal7390 Yeah but it was always a critic the other way around. When you know someone will win 2 turn before it happen and you can't stop them because they are one of those hard-to-stop factions like the Saar. This expansion fix this.

[@janolthof2487]

@@Exozik agree, more powerlevel overall

[@dhmcarver]

From the reviews I have read and seen, I feel you have hit the mark precisely.

[@wappe123]

If you play it once every 3 years, dont expand. If you play it couple times every year, expand

[@cardbaudit]

Calculating the probable amount of games I have left of TI is quite sobering...

[@Komplexitet]

Matt's existential uppercuts are swung from a place of love, and hits harder than an armada of war suns

[@cyclemadness]

I'll settle for one.

[@kossowankenobi]

Our table has one rule: Everyone fights, no one quits.

[@z-beeblebrox]

I've played it about four times, and that's probably about halfway through all the games if TI I'll play in my life

[@ether49]

I honestly found this expansion added more interaction. Our games became longer because we debated for a very long time due to the neq agenda cards. In base game there are often objectives where some players may not care about the outcome, but that is much rare in the expansion. My main issue with the expansion is that the exploration deck often messes with the resource balance. Buying ships in base game is a hard decision, in the expansion your fleets become much larger

[@nERVEcenter117]

The exploration tiles are a big problem in Eclipse 2 as well. Resource windfalls create *massive* teetering imbalances that can make the game for one player and ruin it for everyone else. The point is that they're random and supposed to average out, but they often don't.

[@ollie3x10_8]

@@nERVEcenter117 I think this is a group thing, you need to take people who get lucky exploration draws down a peg or two, either by attacking or cutting them out of trade. The former of these is much harder to do in Eclipse.

[@BlitkriegsAndCoffee]

I don't really see how you do that though. Early invasions often aren't possible because of Ancients barring the way, and often risky against someone who has good starting tech. (not to mention the extra resources they have from the discovery itself) Eclipse's combat system likewise makes it difficult to dogpile on a single player. The resource spikes are just always going to be good. They let you gobble up all the T3 tiles, let you start clearing Ancients/middle earlier, or else giving you a big tech to jumpstart your economy. The best thing you can say is that early discoveries not protected by Ancients don't give you Reputation Tiles and tend to be on weaker sectors, so its possible for other players to catch up in the midgame, but I don't know that I've ever felt that was a big enough tradeoff for the acceleration a resource discovery brings. (especially money, which just lets you dig for more sectors and find more discovery tiles / resources / ancients)

[@ollie3x10_8]

@@BlitkriegsAndCoffee I was mainly talking about TI, which has more tools to deal with this than eclipse.

[@Mode-Selektor]

I agree. When I have a really cool Commander or Hero ability that I want to unlock it really pushes me to go get it. I think that can help give a little bit of early direction to game that is, as Matt says, fuzzy. By adding more differentiation between the factions, I also start to really care about what certain players are doing and this very often added a lot of tension between players.

[@tiredtraveler4536]

"how much space do these people think I have?" I felt that

[@rexsteward]

If you're struggling not to choke on the fresh pretzel that is TI4 then you'd better steer clear of this spicy mustard.

[@ShadyWizardTV]

Bummed you didn't love it. I feel that POK is one of the most enjoyable of my boardgame expansions. It just adds so much more to debate or fight over in the game. It also allows for more surprise multi-point rounds, thrusting a new person into the lead then the base game. Either way TI4 is incredible, and thank you for the review.

[@dhmcarver]

This is how one disagrees respectfully. Nice to see.

[@JonTripp115]

"That's a bit gauche... and I think we should annihilate them." That sounds like TI in a nutshell.

[@Shenaldrac]

Bah You're just upset you didn't get five points by turn two.

[@kodiakuk373]

I felt this way after my first game. It never feels good to forget things. After further playtime, I'd never go back. Everything new is awesome and it reinvents a bunch of the original factions.

[@ruinsage2677]

This was a well thought out review full of valid critiques. Well done, very professional. Still factually wrong, and nothing short of heresy.

[@absol1975]

I'm sorry you didn't have as good a time with Prophecy of Kings, Matt =( . I really like it, and like others found it added more interaction, because it gives everyone more stuff to give away to other people. But it's entirely fair that it doesn't resonate with everyone.

[@cages_]

[@philroi2672]

Very fair. PoK isn't for everyone, and that's totally ok. I hope someday they wander past a table that it does resonate with and they rediscover the magic. I for one will always keep a spot open for them or anyone else that wants to give it a go, at my game table. Passion for this game can be infectious, and I myself have had off periods when it comes to my own feelings for the game. But the community for this game keeps reinvigorating me and I keep on playing it.

[@kreeostravios5512]

Yea i was watching this and he kept going back to he didn't want more stuff to take away from the politicking and table talk and mega gameness. And i kept saying to myself man i feel with the fact so much of this stuff is useable on others and allies are a thing talking and trading and hashing out crazy deals is a bigger part of the game than ever before.

[@nathanodwyer7652]

Spot on Lore Milty

[@voice0074]

@@Possi_ball hear hear

[@NPDGX]

Honestly, something as simple as the new Alliance promissory note, which lets you give another player your commander's ability, makes me inclined to disagree. TI4 is, in my opinion, all about those tight diplomatic wars, and pulling strings in negotiations to pull yourself to victory. This game does a fantastic job of giving you more tools in the toolbox for that.

[@rexsteward]

Seconded! As in the base game, it takes a while to get a feel for the components. Once you do, however, you realize that you have all the more tools to barter with, extort with, and shape your own unique approach to interacting with others at the table.

[@themoefez]

Absolutely. I completely disagree with this review. And that's fine. I'm usually with SUSD about their reviews, but this one really missed the mark and badmouthed the expansion for exactly the reasons it's awesome. He says it makes the game wilder, less predictable and harder to pass. But that's exactly why I love that expansion. To me what the new stuff does is add theme and strategic depth to the game, that enhances TI's variable powers in way that completely complements and supplements it.

[@aitools4biz]

Playing a 6 players game to 14 points is making the diplomatic relations absolutely amazing. Especially if you play the empyrean faction properly

[@jasperbosman3485]

If you are able to take the time to learn all of the new stuff, it really adds to the depth of negotiation you can do in Twilight Imperium. All of the Commander (unlockable) abilities are tradeable, except Mahact's. All of the Agents are negotiable for other players to use. And the expansion really helps to balance the worst offenders from base game, although you don't care about that until you're quite a few games in, I suppose.

[@aussiegecko1892]

I think the best way to tell that Matt not only nailed this review but that SUSD have just done amazing work over the years is that almost the entire comment section seems to be full of people who completely disagree with Matt... and yet there is no flame war happening. There is no mass downvote, people simply accept that this is what it is; a wholehearted opinion. I have no opinion on Twilight Imperium cause I have never played it, but this honesty was refreshing to hear and honestly just makes me want to play TI even more.

[@davimelo9181]

I think it speaks more about the board game hobbyists than their channel per se. We're a non confrontational folk

[@Mecolzn]

Yes, I for one disagree with his opinion and really enjoy the expansion. And also do all of my friends who tried it, even though are not hard-core or invested into TI. However I totally got his point and respect it.

[@jodi1761]

@@davimelo9181 Lol, try reading the comment section on negative reviews on BoardGameGeek. The pettiness, vitriol and sheer fanboyism is staggering 😕

[@SamDeRoest232]

Many of the new leader abilities allow you to grant your powers to other factions or use them on yourself. For me, this greatly increases the player interaction in the game. Also, I love being overwhelmed and not knowing what each player is capable of. It makes the universe feel vast and unknowable and grand, and that is what TI is for me, a grand space opera. The expansion adds more asymmetry and discovery, and its a shame that the review didn't touch on the variability of exploration, the rebalance of the factions via leaders, or how the new objectives promote more player interaction, rather than turtling with tech objectives. But then again, I am the person who "already has it".

[@jeffreymonsell659]

I liked the expansion well enough, but I do wish it was more modular. I wasn't so into the exploration stuff, but the mechs and leaders were pretty cool.

[@Mode-Selektor]

I definitely agree. Previously two players fight, everyone watches. Now you have things like two players fight and the Titans of Ul block a hit changing the tide of battle which has BIG diplomatic implications.

[@xironbeastx8677]

I think they aimed at making it closer to a galactic war simulator, where you can make plans, and you might be aware of some of your opponents capabilities, but you can get blindsided by something you missed and have to readjust your plans, war is never something where someone can know all of what you're opponent is capable, neither are concepts like politics or economics, you will never know it all even though nothing is hiding it from you.

[@TheSchaef47]

Yeah, I suspect the people most likely to disagree with Matt are the ones who know your secret objective, when you're going to build a War Sun, and which action you'll claim each round for the rest of the game, all because you built a cruiser instead of two destroyers in the first round. Guys who knows all the races and powers and cards that cold are going to have a lot of fresh air breathed into the game by what's in the box.

[@jonathanwalker6074]

Prophecy of Kings is such a sick expansion. Improves so much on the base game

[@Gallan0th]

Yeah it does. I've played 6 games with the base game and 8 with PoK and I can't ever see going back. I fundamentally disagree with most of what Matt had to say in this review and that's ok. My friends and I are definitely in the target audience for this expansion haha

[@jonathanwalker6074]

@@Gallan0th me too

[@evantilton5289]

@@Gallan0th Same

[@luis9976]

Same

[@SilentNSly]

Yup, I think PoK is an awesome expansion. There is only two new pages of rules, but so much extra depth to each faction. Fully disagree with this review.

[@technom22]

*touches side of his head* "oooooh, games." Couldn't have said it in a better way!

[@Dahras1]

Obviously this is a bit of a necro comment. But... I've got to say, as someone who played my first game of TI before this expansion and second game with it, the expansion added *so much.* I get the point of it all perhaps being too much, but I think that the addition of Heroes alone basically made the game for me. Before the game, we all shared our hero power and so much of the game was just us waiting to see when each of us would get to use our sweet mega ability. And sure enough, one of my favorite moments in the entire game was when our Muaat (sun people) player used a crazy combination of relics, tech, and his hero power to, in one turn, warp from the wormhole nexus into the leading player's fleet, use his hero power to turn it into a supernova, and then invade that player's home system to score an objective and stop that player from winning. I wasn't even involved in that play, but just getting this guy really *be* the insane sun people was the kind of moment I had always wanted TI to give me. I feel like base TI had a lot of flavor, and the faction powers were cool, but a lot of the time they felt kind of flat. Like, you were different, but unless you were Necro Virus, you felt more like AoE2 factions than Starcraft 2 factions. To me PoK makes them the latter because it gives them those power moments that line up perfectly with their fantasy. So yeah, I can see why it's a lot. But from my perspective, it's a lot of what TI needed.

[@QBG]

I kept seeing flashes of motion through the windows and assumed it was Quinns setting up some kind of joke. Was very disappointed when I finally realized it was just cars driving by.

[@kehraus]

I respect Matt's viewpoint. I don't agree with it, as to me his voiced concerns are the things I felt were missing from base TI4. It was too sharp, angular and predictable and yet bogged down with a preponderance for aggressive dealmaking; those who knew the game best would be the ones who would be bargaining the loudest and the fastest round the table. There were serious talks about "optimisation" and "balance" for moulding TI4 for tournament play which to me felt like anathema compared to the rollicking experience that was TI3. Ti4 POK for me was a step back to that grand space opera that I had always held dear. Dense, fuzzy and unknowable.

[@artstsym]

PoK is really good, and also it DOES have a lot of the problems Matt points out. You *might* be able to convince your casual group to try base TI4 as a big event and have a great time. If you try to start them on PoK they will cry. It's a really hard question because online, this is the standard. The things it adds are excellent and it really breathes new life into a lot of factions... but you're playing with people who live, sleep, eat, and breathe Twilight. In person... it's so much more goddamn shit it makes me actively angry at Fantasy Flight for their piss poor storage, and you can really feel the extra mechanical weight if you're not super familiar with the system.

[@Dram1984]

I legitimately missed 12 hour plus games of TI. The only reason I really wanted the expansion was for 8 players.

[@JetBlackRage]

Completely agree!

[@PeterKelley]

Prophecy of Kings probably cuts a turn off your average TI4 game.

[@ElTrolldego]

I don't think I've disagreed more with a SUSD review. I love PoK and couldn't imagine playing without it.

[@SilentNSly]

The fact that he thought hyperlanes were to only increase the size of the map (instead of primarily to create fair maps for odd player counts) shows that he barely grasped the expansion and was giving a review from the perspective of someone who did not fully comprehend the game. Also, I disagree with the fact that the the new stuff makes you focus more on the more and less on game politics (as the leaders, alliance promissory note, relic fragments) all add to the player interaction. Even control of legendary planets have sometime become huge interaction/negotiation issues.

[@voice0074]

@@SilentNSly seems he didn’t play it much. He made a bunch of points that actually criticized the base game along with POK. So many contradictions in this review. Nekro are dicks!! What the hell is he talking about!?

[@voice0074]

Brutal take. I don’t think he loves TI4 as much as he says

[@aitools4biz]

Amen to that

[@michaelvanderwal7390]

@@voice0074 And I get that he just can't play the game often. They have a lot of games they're responsible for reviewing. Still, he shouldn't sound like he's such an authoritative voice on the game if that's the case. And yeah, the best way to play the Nekro is to make friends and have your friends feed you tech lol

[@leolesetre8842]

Well, Matt not liking the expansion was unexpected. Also unexpected was getting a huge existential crisis about having a limited amount of games left to play until death O______O

[@cages_]

Aye, I'm really glad we have Tabletop Simulator...which of course isn't as good as physical TI, but being able to just find a group and play pretty much any day of the week....it's dangerous

[@onewholeegg]

Shoutout to the folks who disagree with Matt's review but still respect the opinion

[@dhmcarver]

Amen. I thought he explained his points very well, and made it clear that he was expressing a particular point of view (and that if you were a TI4 stan, this review wasn't for you).

[@rexsteward]

Oh, interesting! As a longtime SUSD fan, I really expected Matt to adore the expansion: the leaders and alliance promissory make for more over-the-table interaction, the agenda phase has been made more compelling, and the expanded objective decks and unpredictability of exploration make the game less "gameable", putting more onus on your relationships around the table. With the pandemic and the game being so famously huge..I wonder if they just didn't have the time to give it multiple tries and truly get a feel for the new components.

[@CalebStarnes29715]

on their podcast, it is mentioned that they managed to play a single 4-player game of PoK. It's possible that was the only time Matt played before this review.

[@bluecarbon]

Also, I can totally understand why he had a negative experience if his only game was with the Mahact. If he had pulled the Nomad and realized that the faction is essentially the A-team, complete with space-van, I can imagine he'd have a better time.

[@voice0074]

@@CalebStarnes29715 that sounds about right. This review reeked of unfamiliarity. He didn’t even understand what the hyperlanes are for, its a damn must for a 5 player game, POK or vanilla.

[@haloreaper1018]

Isn't the point of TI to play a game about simulating a galaxy full of different empires where nothing can be predicted?

[@Icebear3D]

Prohecy of kings (POK) is the best game experience I have ever had. Base game got a little stale and predictable late game (after 10-12 games played). POK has issues, it speeds up the game and ends a whole round earlier while simultaneously making it take a little longer. (We have startet to fix this with house rules, simple additions makes it more fluid) But combined with codex cards, it is a guarantee to be a rollercoaster. And nothing is ever sure... And I would refuse to spend 8 hours on a game without POK..😆😊

[@LoganLisle]

Agreed. I don’t think I would ever play a game of TI4 without PoK after having tasted what it brings to the table.

[@kazikoni379]

Interesting. What are your house rules?

[@OlVeil]

I POK a lot. The whole ''I don't know what the other factions can do cuz I'm already overwhelmed with my own'' argument... well, I'm totally fine with it. Your travelling across the universe, you meet another faction, why would you know everything about them already? More RP, less metagaming.

[@dethkeik]

Almost disagree with everything he has to say about POK. I figured most TI fans would love POK.

[@dennisk.4052]

The same here. But have to agree with the bad quality/color of the plastic. Without that it would be the perfect game expansion to me.

[@StriderZessei]

@@dennisk.4052 that's already been fixed with the new printing.

[@blobbfish9412]

@@StriderZessei Is it? I'd buy a second copy just to get the mech's colour match.

[@StriderZessei]

@@blobbfish9412 there was a reddit thread about it. The new printing fixes both the bad plastics and the color differences on the cards and planet tiles.

[@blobbfish9412]

@@StriderZessei Awesome, I missed that. Thanks!

[@judgegrumble]

Wow I've never disagreed with a SU&SD review this much.

[@Jesentra]

I honestly watch SU&SD more for the comedic value anymore. I don’t think they’re bad reviewers, but ever since their Etherfields review it became apparent that we just like different games

[@usdaprime6648]

Totally. PofK is the bees knees. If you want a simple game play bingo for real. I can't believe the main criticism was how it made it more complicated... lol kinda the point of the game.

[@myhearn]

I am shocked sir, shocked, didn't expect you to not like it, I've been loving it.

[@moltenboyo2163]

I really disagree with the idea that it takes away from above the table, but maybe that’s just the group I play with. I had people argue for 30 full minutes over a single relic fragment. But while I disagree i appreciate that you’re willing to put your thoughts out on this, and I’m sorry you couldn’t enjoy it as much as base game. Keep up the good work matty!

[@chickenstripzz]

No. You're completely correct here. Everything adds to the above the table game.

[@domoredujordan]

Sounds like a great debate haha

[@franz2027]

Do you play the game in person or online? I think being part of the spacecatspeaceturtles community helps so much to enjoy the game more.

[@moltenboyo2163]

@@franz2027 In person, I have a group at work that I play with. I’ll probably try it again over tts with scpt people, but I think I got a pretty bad first experience lmao, people got super serious and actually upset and it was really awkward

[@franz2027]

@@moltenboyo2163 Oh snap, nevermind then, yeah many people need to be called out on their bad behavior online.

[@RobertHovakimyan55]

I found the expansion adds a lot more above the table. There are 4 new abilities per faction in the form of 3 leaders and a mech, which adds to the unknown fuzziness you talked about. This makes crazy and chaotic plays even crazier and more chaotic, as well as more frequent. It also introduces exploration which is incredibly thematic and leads to more roleplay and bargaining, at least at our table. The new objectives encourage more aggression and deal making because they are no longer "have x amount of techs" but rather "have ships in 3 systems on the edge of the map". To get systems, you either need to fight or bargain with your neighbors. I see the point about it adding more overhead, but I think if you loved Ti4 base game, its hard not to at least like the expansion-- although Matt is a counterexample to this point (but my group and I are a counterexample to his points).

[@paulbrown5937]

Prophecy of Kings really is for those of us that treat TI as a lifestyle game, and for us its the best thing ever made haha!

[@Nick_Whiskey]

I just calculated my life in "games of TI left" and it's very sad.

[@MrImportantGuy]

I'm sad too. But mostly because I might only have like 3-4 games left

[@avarose1236]

I've only played Prophecy of Kings virtually via tabletop simulator, but based on that experience I disagree pretty strongly with this review. I think Prophecy of Kings built a lot on TI and I'm definitely way more pumped to play it again with the expansion than without. For me, the randomness and big swings in the game are part of the fun and always have been in regular TI. Also I wouldn't worry about it being too complex... Usually if you're in the market for an expansion it's because you've gotten very comfortable with (and maybe even bored by) the original. I love SUSD, but I don't agree with this review at all.

[@frans3950]

YES!

[@AureliusAudio]

POK also rebalances the game, making terrible factions much more approachable with additional abilities such as Leaders. I hard disagree with this review.

[@mymarin]

Couldn't agree more!

[@gusroussi1454]

Same.

[@hbenensky]

I prefer how it forces more border skirmishes/ interaction in round 2 than ever before. So much of reg TI is passively building to round three and then big pushes. Now it's more about early aggression and possible over extension, it's more fun earlier

[@stewbiedo]

I agree. Prophecy of Kings has made the game a lot more exciting and apparently brings in variantions of the expansions from TI3. Very disappointing review. Let me down Matt

[@JJMoncrief]

@@stewbiedo Are you saying he let you down because you disagree with his review?

[@Lucretiel]

There's plenty here that I can't disagree with, simply because it's a matter of taste- if he didn't like it, that's totally fine, it's not for everyone. The one place I'm finding disagreement is the idea that the expansion is mostly more "stuff on the table". While it obviously is, in my experience the best part of the expansion is the degree to which it adds more stuff *above* the table. It adds so many new avenues for negotiation and so many more assets and abilities that are more valuable to your neighbors than yourself, which encourages trading and interaction.

[@MowMan7]

This was really interesting to watch. I've only seen praise from PoK, so it was weird to see someone say negative things about the expansion. I've played about 6 games of PoK now, and the new systems felt natural by 2nd or 3rd game. Once the changes set in, the expansion clicked and felt wonderful to play. If you love the base TI4, then give PoK a chance. It's going to feel scary and unfamiliar at first, but after 2 or 3 plays, it'll feel much better.

[@jean-francoisleblanc2448]

Well as long as you do an other live game with No Pun included it's fine for me :P

[@RaK0]

"Anyone who wants this already definitely has it." Me, waiting for my copy since december of last year: *cries*

[@nick_hansolo]

"Marvel Robot, Bird...man, Space Face, Billy No-Mates" ha ha ha

[@TheSchaef47]

I think those were the original names on the cards. They got changed in proofing.

[@tomihawk01]

I didn't get PoK on release for financial and lack-of-people-to-play-with reasons. After this review I thought I dodged an expensive bullet. I love TI, but get to play it so infrequently that I can probably play my remaining lifetime of games without missing it. But then I came down to the comments and I kind of want it again.

[@cyriltournier5784]

For me I what I like about this expansion is more differentiation between factions. Also the objectives being rebalanced is good, some strategies were way too strong. I'm not too fond of the exploration and artefacts, though. They just add useless complexity to the game imo.

[@jeffreymonsell659]

I agree wholeheartedly. The exploration felt like too much of a distraction, but the mechs and leaders were great additions.

[@nozhki-busha]

"Our people have travelled through the very absence of time and space. I've brought some fancy crisps! I thought we could put them in a bowl." ahaha OMG

[@TheSchaef47]

It'd better not be those baked kettle kind. Those are so pretentious.

[@foodforfaeries]

This is the most respectfully contentious KZbin comments section I've ever seen.

[@MJ-in2xt]

What a fantastic review. This is an often significantly overlooked part of games, especially expansions. The extra bits can be really, really cool. They can even greatly enhance or totally overhaul an experience. But there are limits to how much people want to mentally manage and, for board games, how much we can practically get to the table.

[@Hahahahaaahaahaa]

I think this is the nice part and hard part about a broad scope BG review team like SUSD. It's so easy to see why this isn't a recommend, it adds 5 more things to an 8-12 hour game! If you (like our fine host here) don't want to know everything going on everywhere even in your own home system, POK will just give you even more to not know. BUT there is no question in my mind that POK makes everything about TI4 better. Objectives are better, all but a faction or two feel balanced, there is stuff to do right away! Exploration and agents and tech no longer being the king of winning! I get why SUSD wouldn't like this, but it's all the reasons I love it.

[@frenchy1138]

Firstly, how dare you undersell my mechwarrior cat-monkeys who love space archaeology. Secondly... you're not wrong. My group has played PoK a couple of times now, and while I like that it makes the galaxy feel more vibrant and lived-in, it takes an already sprawling game and makes it *much more sprawling*. The fatigue I felt at the end of a game of regular TI is nothing compared to the exhaustion - and often frustration - I felt at the end of PoK.

[@Phabulouso]

Such a wild perspective... After my first game of POK I immediately knew I never wanted to play the base game ever again.

[@dumb_baby3012]

The expansion is definitely aimed at the type of people that listen to a podcast specifically about TI every week

[@kylemassey1258]

Is this my sign?

[@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast]

o.o

[@wappe123]

And maybe listen to every other episode said pod puts out that isn't even about TI. Even tho those games hold no interest

[@dumb_baby3012]

@@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast 😏

[@TheSchaef47]

@@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast /feels attacked by this

[@Kierkergaarder]

It's interesting to me that on the whole the comments here dont agree with Matt's verdict. I dont either, I really love both TI and PoK. Nonetheless some good points. Cheers!

[@addisonrees8317]

This is the game worth buying a bigger table for, you will stress less

[@roderickvannoorloos1967]

I've never watched one of your reviews that took me on such a rollercoaster of emotions like this one. I started off with liking the video before pressing play (which I automatically do for video's from channels I enjoy, as a courtesy) and not even 5 minutes in I wanted to revoke that Like. How dare you rain down on this fabulous expansion I've been eyeing for some time now?! Were you blind? Hadn't you seen all the cool stuff that came with this expansion? Had pandemic induced isolation dulled you to the ability of enjoying complex boardgames with fellow humans?? But as you explained your reasoning you managed to actually make me come around to your point of view (not an easy thing as you might have guessed from the paragraph above). I might play a full game of TI two times a year, maybe 1,5 would be more realistic. Me and my friends need to always get back into the ruleset, and therefore its mechanics can still surprise us. Which isn't bad, just like you said; that balancing on the edge of trying to encompas all that's going on, both with your own goals but also those of your opponents, is something that really tickles our cerebral fancy. And I can honestly see that experience, which is almost integral to playing the game for us, tipping over the edge into that dark realm of apathy where you are so overwhelmed by game mechanics and choices that the game simply isn't fun anymore. Buying that expansion would very probably destroy TI for me and my friends. That said it's also clear to me for who this expansion actually is. It's for those absolutely fabulous mad lads and gals that play TI (bi-)weekly, those who live and breathe TI, those who can actually finish a game within the time frame mentioned on the box!! Because those players have tipped the other way, their games of TI were probably becoming a bit stale. The mechanics having become part of their DNA, quickly able to see the most likely possibilities from any course of action. For them the challenge was no longer the game's systems but the razor's edge they and their opponents had honed themselves to and were testing their mettle against time and again. And for these people this expansion has probably brought exactly what I already love from TI and which they'd probably lost. That beautiful experience of once again balancing on that edge of understanding and mystification, that feeling of not only being challenged by your opponents but the actual game itself. And for them it's probably perfect. And yeah, they've likely all bought it already. Whew! Biggest KZbin comment I've ever made I think, but that's how much your review gripped me. Thank you so much for this excellent review!

[@TheSchaef47]

Honestly, you know that's the hallmark of a good review, when you hate him for saying it, but he's absolutely right as it applies to your group.

[@chickenstripzz]

at 17:45 you mention everyone expecting nekro to be aggressive but having to apologize for playing aggressive as mahact... I don't understand this point.

[@fraserallison789]

The point is that anyone can glance at the Nekro Virus faction sheet and immediately understand "evil robot virus", with all that that entails, but there's not such a readily understandable archetype that leaps off the page for the Mahact Gene-Sorcerers

[@chickenstripzz]

@@fraserallison789 I'd disagree. They seem to me on par with nekro on how evil they look.

[@thesquib]

I was sceptical as well but after Two 6 player games with POK included I decided it was not a huge complexity increase but it did give more interesting options to players. We had a player who was exploring heavily looking for artefacts, taking them close to neighbours and beyond. This caused all sorts of fun 😂

[@petergienke742]

"Maybe I've only got 15 - 20 more games of TI left...." Goddamn man...that hits hard.....

[@PleaseGetLowderNow]

“COVID is *so* T.I. now that I think about it.” 😂😂😂

[@TheSchaef47]

The real nekro virus

[@whittaker007]

This is not an expansion for a casual player who only plays once or twice a year, has to re-read rules to remember how to play it, or has to teach it to new players for every game. This is an expansion for players who are comfortable and familiar with the base game and it's issues. It adds a lot of variety while rebalancing and fixing some of the issues with the base game, and adding a lot more player interaction and negotiations. If you treat it as something greater than Space Risk this is all upside with the caveat that it adds more stuff to a game that is already big and deep.

[@andy4an]

I've played 6 games of TI... I loved the hell out of them but to be honest I have zero games left.

[@MrSoosas]

In general I think I get what you're saying that as someone who has already learned but not mastered base game the expansion is just to much. The question of who this is for is pretty simple to me tho; it's for those who had played enough to see the huge power imbalance between factions and/or found base game to formulaic. It's also great for people who are entirely new to TI as the game is overwhelming to learn to begin with so adding a few more things doesn't change that burden overmuch. Overall I think this is a great expansion but the difference between us could be that I fervently hope to play 15-20 more games of it in the next 2 years let alone my lifetime.

[@philipkelly7369]

My review of Prophecy of Kings is a lot shorter, and consists thusly: Do you like Twilight Imperium? Do you like it a lot? This is more Twilight Imperium.

[@fallout1116]

That's akin to claiming 3rd edition (with both expansions) was more Twilight Imperium.

[@Woger6]

I feel Matt missed the point of this expansion. I do agree that PoK adds a ton of things that makes it harder for any average player to understand what's going on. However, Matt only glosses over who this game was for; PoK is for the enthusiasts of TI4 who want to continue to expand the interaction and world building that this game brings to the table. I wish he spent more time researching how the expansion fixed the base game's issues. I also hoped for a segment on "Should you by PoK?" like what Quinns did in the original review... but I guess the people who wanted to expand the game already have the expansion by now.

[@fallout1116]

Nah, he covered that in the first 4 minutes, where he points out those who wanted it, those it was written for, already bought it months ago. That pool of people is fairly small.

[@benjaminslater4392]

great review, not going to lie I had similar fears about upgrading from 3rd edition to 4th edition because 3rd edition + all expansions was the perfect amount of game that left most of the game focused on the players and negotiations. I had a group that played twice a year and we all loved this game so much. Pulling players into another room to discuss an uneasy alliance or to question a big move that came from a player you haven't spoken with yet is something that we have never experienced outside of this game except Axis & Allies. This review helps a lot and I need to look more into 4th edition, thanks!

[@perfischer6728]

Wilder, less predictable and harder to parse ... yes, please.

[@andrewrichesson8627]

Yeah, Matt claims to like fuzziness but doesn't like the complexity that brings the fuzziness.

[@dj_koen1265]

Well there is a degree of complexity that isn’t pleasant When it becomes tedious clunky and convoluted But idk how this expansion is set up because I haven’t played it

[@GrievousFrom]

If you're visiting my house you'd better bring some Lion Bars.

[@petershuck9906]

Matt really confirms my hesitancy to jump into POK. I suppose the new features are exciting for people who play all the time, but it's already hard enough to onboard new players to the game. I would've been happy with modular features (like distant suns and leaders from TI3) and extra factions. Mandating a full conversion to the new system is a bridge too far.

[@Dagens24]

See I'm the opposite; I hate modular features. To me they always feel like I'm being forced to find the fun in the experience. If the module isn't fun enough to mandate you play with it then why include it, ya know?

[@Blackadder75]

I play only 3 games of TI in a year, (but with the same players, so we all know it rather well by now) But we always end up including every expansion to these kind of games. I didn't really notice a huge increase in difficulty. I really don't understand how a player, like the reviewer, who claims that he forgets to use 50% of the abilities in a game can enjoy such a game... at all..... It seems to me that such a game is way too complicated for him and he is better of playing a smaller game, especially since this takes 5-8 hours to finish. (even without the expansion) My point is, if you like a complex game like TI 4th edition, you should also like the expansion. It doesn't double the complexity, it only adds 10%

[@prettyflyforacompsci7725]

Wild to me that he isn't a fan of PoK. All the leaders give more flavor and a needed rebalance. The alliance and agents give you more to trade with. Mechs are just cool. Idunno, just feels like a great expansion.

[@michaelvanderwal7390]

It gave me so much joy to learn that the Winnu are actually playable!

[@tomd2666]

My group launched into a game with the expansion just recently and, despite my earlier reservations, found the new additions pretty digestible. But then again we play on TTS so a LOT of the attrition from book-keeping and combat are scripted for us helping stave off fatigue. And of course the digital space is as large as we need. Couldn't imagine trying have all this nonsense squeezed onto an actual tabletop.

[@matthewprovisor757]

Being an expansion for more seasoned players looking to spice up the game, I can agree with. It's a lot to keep track of. It was well tested (100+ test games) but most of the testers were by players that have played 100+ games each. I think its mechanically sound and well developed but not really meant for the casual or new player. Also, coming from a place of love of your reviews, it might help you appreciate the expansion more if you learned the base game rules.

[@lemuelhouston5397]

I, personally, think that it isn't too much to add PoK in on people's first play. I do not find the expansion to add a wealth of new mechanics that were not already present in the base game.

[@matthewprovisor757]

@@lemuelhouston5397 right, I said that about new/casual players. It'd not about adding more mechanics but adding more flavor and variety, thus, why I said it's really meant more for the experienced player.

[@afriendofafriend5766]

I saw this video, looked at the time, realized I have nothing going on today, and now I know what I'm doing for the next 8 hours. Edit: and now I've played it two more times. I think the harsh review was just in an effort to get me to play it more.

[@domoredujordan]

It's a beast of stuff thrown in for sure. For my group it felt like all the things added in allowed for even more of the player interaction you found the expansion was distracting you from. Someone makes a deal with me, but I'm not keen on it because my money is low. But after moving into a couple systems and exploring them to find some old wealth and a mech, I'm feeling more optimistic about that trade, so I open the floor for talks again. But now, the OTHER player feels more uneasy about the trade simply because I've found myself in better standings during the same turn. And I love that. The expansion has lots of moments like this that can lead to some laughs around the table or immediate reversals of agreements and alliances. "I told you you're the only one that can get in there and do something about them. If you don't do it next turn, I'll take matters into my own hands." They don't do it, and you move their entire army for them using some crazy one-off leader ability, and cause these other two players to fight anyway. Big gasps all around. As the Mahact, all I had to tell the other players at the start of the game was "Kneel," and they knew who I was for the rest of the game. It was pretty much an all-against-me campaign, and I revelled in it. And when they couldn't stop me, and "space Hitler" as they called me, took over the galaxy, the need to get another game going soon has increased, as no one can stand the thought of my tyrannical people being in control of the galaxy for too long. I'm not too ready to quell the unrest. I'd like to bask in my conquest a little longer, I think. ;) You're right though, it's just a fat pile of cognitive overload that makes you want to just shut it all out. But that's how the original honestly felt to me as well. It still does sometimes. But it reinforces the theme. The player/race who can manage all themselves and the galactic state effectively is the one fit to rule it all. But if you can't do all that, you could still win by simply being conniving enough if the others aren't privy to your schemes, or seemingly innocent enough that no one really notices you for awhile. Really great video though, I wholeheartedly agree. Just wanted to share my own reflections as well.

[@kreeostravios5512]

I can get the overload being an issue adding 3 leaders can be a bit overwhelming to the game if you want to keep track of everything. But i take it to be like your original statements i don't want to know everything i want to keep an eye to see if it's unlocked a bit but having information be a touch fuzzy allows for a crazy out of nowhere plays which are exciting. Our first game saw a person make an awesome play thinking that they had won the game and everyone was scratching their head how to stop them when a player no one thought had any way to do anything was like i got this and used his hero to teleport an entire fleet across the board which could have been stopped had they had perfect information but because of this they made an awesome play that we all still talk about. Almost everyone i know has absolutely loved the expansion but interesting to hear some reasons for why someone might not like it.

[@andyelphick]

I love the artful cheesiness of these videos.

[@Graeby]

"When I'm playing TI I don't know what's going on with me, what I'm doing..." 9:28 Something about waiting 45 minutes for your turn that really makes you question life decisions.

[@howardphilips4503]

Twilight Imperium is my absolute favorite game which I luckily can get on the table pretty regularly as it seems to be the favorite game of my entire group (most of the time), so for me POK made everything I love about TI even better. Every faction became even more unique and powerful, empowering players, enabeling and ecouraging more fantastical moves, while exploration garantied that you always have something important maybe even gamechanging to do. I found that with POK the above-the-board interaction became even more important because you can`t possibly fathom everything going on the board at all times, but when you achieve that and the matrix unfolds itself infront of you it is so much more rewarding. But I understand the problems if one doesn`t get to play TI as much as we do.

[@metalwizard1969]

First SUSD review I’ve completely disagreed with. Love love LOVE POK expansion.

[@Samantha_yyz]

I play TI a lot like Matt does, except in pro chaos. My group is mostly more skilled than me. So even though I am trying to get objectives completed, I know I'll never win. So I really enjoy the chaos that TI can have. So all these new things adding more chaos really fits my style of play. I'm not here to win, I'm here to make some personal objectives for myself, and do weird shit. If you're like me and loved all the bulshit in TI3s expansions, this feels like a good refurbished version of those. Tidied them up a bit, made them clearer, ect.

[@stijnvandrongelen5625]

I relate a lot with this comment! The only exception is that I never played TI3. I love the ✨ options ✨ for extra chaos that PoK offers that people forget about until it hits them.

[@davidf8365]

Can't believe you guys missed an opportunity for a "that's so Twilight Imperium" moment at 2:35

[@witteverheul]

I was already laughing in the first 2 seconds 🤣

[@vonheer7418]

The Tabletop Simulator mod of TI:PoK makes it very smooth to playthrough.

[@thelyghter7927]

We really want, if the schedule permits this, a TWILIGHT IMPERIUM PROPHECY OF KINGS PART II REVIEW

[@Athanatarch]

While I completely respect the opinions here, I’m a little confused about the points that were complained about. Sure, there were weaker parts of the expansion that I thought Shut Up and Sit Down would critique, and I kept waiting to hear what aspects failed to resonate, but it all seems to have boiled down to a nebulous “it adds too much”. I was pretty shocked that the best parts- rebalancing the core game, more unique powers, more exploration and randomness, and more social interaction- seemed to be either have been missed or actively disliked. I know some folks who really like to maximize their efficiency or who are easily overwhelmed trying to play “optimally” might dislike all the options, unpredictability, and increased social aspects the expansion added, but I never thought Shut Up and Sit Down would be among them. Still love the show, just hope that the crew can give the expansion another look when they have the (admittedly massive amount of) time to sit down and play the game again. Twilight Imperium is a beautiful, ungainly space epic that feels a perfect fit for this channel, and I hope they can one day discover all the heart this expansion was able to reintroduce to a Shut Up and Sit Down classic.

[@michaelvanderwal7390]

Yeah, it kind of sounds like Matt maybe played half a game with the new stuff.

[@GreenPaintz]

Great review Matt. The framing for this video does wonders in showing who this is and isn't for. This is for players that literally know every part of TI like the back of their hands. I completely understand how players get confused and can't keep up with so many moving parts. It's an alienating expansion that is great for veteran players with intimate knowledge. I would be hard-pressed to get a full party that understands this game at a level appropriate for this environment. I think many comments forget the framing of this review. It incorporates players that don't know everything as well as newer players. Plenty of comments say "I disagree because we can play without difficulty" and add in a benefit that is only truly available to players that can handle the expansion. Their opinion on the expansion isn't wrong, but their framing is completely different from this review.

[@austinmaurer1776]

I disagree with his framing. I don't agree with who it is for and who it's not. I'm not all about crunch and looking at the table and love the lite roleplay and think this expansion is perfect. I also have shown this to new people and because it is so seamlessly integrated no one was overwhelmed by the new stuff.

[@Swekyde]

As someone who played TI twice and then got the chance to play it with PoK, I big disagree. I don't know every part of TI like the back of my hand, but adding exploration as a less aggressive way to have action, new personal objectives in the heroes, etc. It felt like playing Stellaris without the Utopia expansion vs with. I literally cannot recommend people play Stellaris without Utopia, because it adds such a nice layer of icing to the game. So far I've felt PoK did that for TI as well. I think the only part that was a little clunky were the relic fragments except for one thing: they added even more diplomacy. There was way more politicking over trying to trade for them than there was for the vanilla notes and the new one that was added too. I also agree with the sentiment I see around here that because there are more things to trade and consider and have be fuzzy that there's more room for "up here" play than was added "down there". Some of the "down there" play seemed to be added just to make room for more "up here" options.

[@alexandertate2762]

I really appreciate this review, my dad got me the expansion for Christmas and I have yet to play it for due to the pandemic and for a fear of the game becoming insurmountable to play and teach to others. That all said, I feel one part of the critique that makes sense but won’t hold for long is understanding the new factions. TI 4th edition came out in 2017 and many of the factions have been in earlier editions so we are familiar with how they tend to play and what to expect from them. The introduction of 7 new factions that many have yet to even read about makes it understandable that the critique said what it did, but I imagine in say a year or two, when the pandemic is over and people can play the game more frequently, the expansion factions will hopefully become more clear and enjoyable to the point where people know what to expect. And maybe the expansion will age like fine wine and become something great once we get more familiar with all the new rules. But again, the review was really appreciated as so now if/when I put it all together and start playing it myself I won’t have to high of expectations for making the game even better as opposed to even longer hahah

[@bluecarbon]

I will say this: Prophecy of Kings does NOT make the game longer. You get more powers, resources, and points flowing in faster, to the point where games very rarely go past turn 5. Although Matt didn't have a good experience with it, I've absolutely loved the way Prophecy of Kings gives you more levers to pull to make things happen. I feel like I hit fewer "dead ends" where I researched the wrong tech and just don't have a chance to win anymore, and that is worth the price of the expansion, in my mind.

[@alexandertate2762]

@@bluecarbon thanks for the information and for pointing out my error. I meant to say that it’s even longer to teach and grasps the rules of, I forgot to finish that thought I guess. I constantly am playing TI with different people and if I’m lucky one or two others already know how to play but more often than not I spend the first hour holding hands and giving a crash course as more and more of my friends express an interest in learning it. I’m excited to test it out myself but I haven’t even used promissory notes from the base game because it was an optional rule that I didn’t want to concern new players with so needless to say I’ve got a lot of teaching to do next time I can get 4-8 players around the table. I may even need a bigger table now…

[@alexandertate2762]

@@bluecarbon and also to your point of more buttons to push and levers to pull I think that answers the Matt’s question about who the expansion is for. It’s for people who want more physical game to play. My usual group consists of warhammer 40k players and magic the gathering players. In those games you are much more concerned about building an army or a deck that synergies and can do crazy things that you opponents either won’t expect or will trouble to counter. Though I would love to give it a shot, I have yet to play TI as a role play mega game. We all just pick our faction and see who comes out on top. Social encounters and alliances still exist but it’s less important than figuring out how and what we can do and besting the other players mechanically. Frequently around the table a player will do something new and terrifying and everyone else will go “you can do what?? How is that legal!?” And we all love that. With the new expansion I imagine there will be more moments like that what with all the new factions and advisors and technology. If someone unlocks the ability to create a supernova and tells no one and then decides to just do it without warning, that’s terrifying and exciting. I still want to try the mega game style Matt describes but something tells me that I’ll quite enjoy this expansion, if I can find time and space to play it

[@loxyloo6436]

I miss playing TI with my friend every month for the whole year before covid and now everything is different. I hope I can play this game again soon

[@metalrock720]

Its interesting because the critiques you said about PoK is what I would say about the base game 😅. There is just so much you can do and so many ways your grand plan can go wrong because of luck or you didn't know about a certain card even in the base game. On top of that, the poison of destroying another player after 8 hours into the game makes everyone salty. I like the game but it definitely is too much of an endurance run for most people and it gets pretty exhausting imho

[@hirosmirnov8287]

I love the question mark in the title - really sets up your expectations for what’s about to come

[@estokien]

I have to say, that was probably the first burying the lede visual pun that I've seen, so bravo for that.

[@franz2027]

Thanks for the review. I think PoK has been an amazing expansion, unfortunately Covid has kept people away and the TTS has become the main way to experience the game. It makes the game super manageable on your computer desk. Your review also totally describes my Covid experience, less motivation to keep track of complex games. Life's been hard enough without playing hard games :D