Twitter Argument Escalates Into Lefty Debate | Lefty Arc

Here we go again...
In this episode of Lefty Arc, Destiny gets into a twitter argument with Socialism Done Left - leading to this debate on debt cancellation, pragmatism, messaging and more...
Did Socialism Done Left strawman Destiny...? Did Destiny choke on his food...?
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Philosophy Tube | Lefty Arc Season 2 / Confronting an Old Friend | A Personal Debate

[@tmnumber1]

Again, if Destiny does not stop eating, smacking and talking with food in his mouth I will join QANON.

[@redshift912]

I think qanon is just an excuse for people to look at cp and call it an investigation

[@tobymonster7286]

BASED

[@nx6448]

q cucks clan

[@djz2308]

Freaking endless bowl of crap

[@depecher6s311]

@Something Something better call Saul time

[@Yang-ob4lk]

This is incredible. Isn't destiny streaming like 8 hours a day? How is he eating cereal in every single clip?

[@lucyasthma6605]

he's going for the big boy arc now

[@Reglei1]

@@lucyasthma6605 hes gonna become fat destiny.. density

[@thegochie]

@@Reglei1 Holy shit. Lost hard

[@enaytv6275]

Mans gotta eat

[@sarinat3101]

@@Reglei1 Lmao

[@geekaleek]

Memes Testing.

[@dreaminginnoother]

memes texting

[@anglozombie2485]

The meme economy is stagnating we need to insert more newer fresh memes into it

[@Marismaro]

every term destiny uses more than 2 times inevitably gets put on the shelf of memes

[@sammy8749]

Steve I already devoted myself to the invisible hand of the free market and have begun tattooing capitalism on my entire body now please get me out of the lefty arc and let my family go

[@Kyle_Schaff]

You build a shrine in your closet?

[@travelerfinder7840]

After the shrine, you must build a successful business then go to the moon.

[@Kyle_Schaff]

@@travelerfinder7840 Specifically, you must become a landlord for your business

[@Leinja]

You still need to summon the ghost of Adam Smith and make him possess Steve. Having Steve as his vessel, the ghost of Adam Smith will then proceed to promptly destroy leftism forever and bring forth the age of Omniliberalism, thus also ending the lefty arc.

[@monlomjampa]

You need to surround your shrine with empty coke bottles to ward off evil lefty spirits

[@DudokX]

that was not that bad. I feel like destiny always expects the worst possible interpretations which makes him unnecessary angry even before anything outrageous is said.

[@MinecraftMonkey100]

Not that bad? He won.

[@Gizzgy]

@@MinecraftMonkey100 He's probably talking about the video in regards to entertainment value rather than debate performance, or that SDL did better than expected.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@Gizzgy The titles do not help, where he would make a debate seem more contentious than when watching the vid.

[@muhammadarqam2771]

@Kabelo Ntsala who’s next?

[@Re-Todd_Howard]

@Kabelo Ntsala I’m assuming they mean that Destiny won. Not sure how they came to that conclusion, there isn’t usually a unanimous winner in Destiny debates.

[@mrbigstuffication]

Weird that Destiny is taking credit for arguments his friend gets into

[@Don_C06]

10/10

[@Alramech]

Escalation is rational whenever Destiny is eating into the mic.

[@BigChinaski]

Fuck yes. Take a fucking break, no one needs to hear your chewing and spoon scraping.

[@mcpepp3603]

People that get annoyed by eating sounds need serious anger management.

[@Alramech]

@@mcpepp3603 Bold words for someone who needs anger management for replying to KZbin comments.

[@mcpepp3603]

@@Alramech You sound pretty white bro...

[@Roushfan5]

@@mcpepp3603 It's pretty common manners not to talk with your mouth full.

[@TheSandwichmann]

I ate a really good sandwich from Jersey Mikes! I had their Turkey and Provolone and I would recommend this sandwich to anyone, the combination of the lean turkey breast and provolone cheese creates a flavor out of this world! I hope you all eat a really good sandwich as well and hope you have a nice weekend!

[@thatonedreamsomeonecrushed1912]

I enjoy you sandwich man the most wholesome comment here

[@elil2648]

I've never been to Jersey Mikes, would you say they are better or worse than subway, I usually prefer a meatball or tuna, or blt. Would you say that Jersey Mikes or subway would be better. Either way I'll definitely try the Turkey Provolone, thanks for the help. :)

[@CoalaCalavera]

What do you think of Firehouse Subs?

[@albar428]

@@elil2648 Jersey Mike's is WAYY better than Subway.

[@-boost-]

is sandwich a new dogwhistle that i dont understand yet

[@ZacharyEntenman]

Seeing how chill Socialism Done Left's video was framed vs how aggressive this one is... Editors are hungry.

[@anyoneatall3488]

What do you mean?

[@BRobMint]

So basically Destiny doesn't disagree with the overall goal of making stuff like housing, food, education, etc. free but just doesn't like the messaging? Aight.

[@gwanael34]

Oh I see, it's litteraly just the BUT MEH COMMUNISTS all over again ? The "red scare" never ended did it ? It's really sad that anything even remotely socialistic in america will be called a genocidal anti worker ideology because "meh ussr"

[@BRobMint]

@@gwanael34 You can blame Stalin and Mao for that tbh. Their regimes gave socialism a bad image forever creating endless strawman arguments against non Marxist-Leninist types of socialism.

[@gwanael34]

@@BRobMint What ? How about blame the 70+ years of corporate and capitalist propaganda from the US and your secret services for FORCING it upon other countries otherwise they would just coup the country anyway and put a puppet in power while screaming "MEH LOK' MUH COMMUNIST COUNTRY FAILED" The problem isn't Mao and Lennin, it's the unrelenting western propaganda machine telling you that everything is somehow related to these 2 megalomaniacs because it has the word social in it. I'll be honest, your take is extremely uninformed, simplistic and completly disregards the impact the *RIDICULOUS* *AMMOUNT* of american propaganda had in the last decades..

[@jstevinik3261]

@Something Something Basically, the problem is the average poetically illiterate voter who cannot tell the difference between communism and modern social democracy.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@BRobMint Still, your average voter can not explain the differences between Marxism-Leninism and modern social democracy or social anarchism or actual democratic socialism. I think it is foolish to not support an idea because the average voter does not like it. The average voter did not believe in Women's suffrage in the early nineteenth century.

[@michaelscott993]

I feel like Destiny was incredibly bad faith in this argument. He was just angry the entire time for literally no reason and interpreting SDL arguments in the worst ways possible.

[@krombopulos_michael]

Yeah he strawmans the guy, then when he finds out the guy is pretty reasonable and mostly just agrees with him, he stays mad and tries to argue that he wasn't being clear enough so he was still right to misinterpret it and get mad. Props to this other dude for keeping his cool the whole time.

[@misterdemocracy3335]

I think that there’s two things happening or more even. For one he’s seen the redditors and people on Twitter and shit that participate in politics based solely around slogans. We need to do better than that, if you see people just saying free everything we need to give them actual arguments and make them understand the criticisms that exist and the implications of basically doing away with money and go straight to communism. The other thing is that he has had in the past a lot of arguments with “lefties”, as he calls them, like Mike from Pa who do a bad job arguing and engage in bad faith. He’s also very heavily reliant on sources of information that represent the political consensus of the upper class, the shit we see in the NYT and stuff. Another thing is that any radical changes in society are going to have to bear the burden of proof because all you need to do to defend the status quo is use consensus sources and basically say “ok so things seem relatively stable right now, does this warrant extreme changes?”. The burden of proof is always going to be on us and we have to do better with how rigorous we are about supporting our cases.

[@xaviercosme1284]

Destiny is reaching a bit here. He moved the goal posts from “I don’t agree about the cost” to “i don’t agree it’s a right” to “I don’t like the rhetoric”.

[@xaviercosme1284]

This is coming from someone who hates twitter leftists lol

[@peewee130946]

I think you can hold all 3 of these positions I wouldn’t call it goal post shifting. Btw I’m a lefty who hates lefty Twitter too

[@MinecraftMonkey100]

@@MwahQwQ He didn't hold them though, he constantly gave up ground and then resorted back to one of the said arguments and finally ended on “I don’t like the rhetoric” which is a pathetic argument.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@peewee130946 Seriously, avoid Twitter and Reddit the same people avoid 4Chan. Though, I heard that having a presence there would grow an audience, unfortunately.

[@jstevinik3261]

@iHost I heard that Destiny said his claims are "defensible" in the sense he is capable of defending them.

[@DaRkJoKeR77]

I'm convinced that instead of saying "let's make basic necessities free" we should say "let's make basic necessities as cheep and accessable as possible." This is both more practical and better messaging.

[@RomoFett_]

Free and human rights are a better framing tool. It's far more click bait like, attracting more people further in. Destiny is actually wrong about his framing argument here. Rich white boy wants the peasants to shut up so he can do the work for them.

[@jstevinik3261]

Cuba ensures that food is a right without free food but via low unemployment and affordable prices (though controls do not work in market systems, but it is not failing in a planned system).

[@wpease7]

Destiny's takes weren't terrible and there is a reasonable critique of social democracy to be made but he definitely did not win this debate. Socialism Done Left did a good job here.

[@sean640]

I think destiny was looking for clarification, and making his point clear. I'm gonna definitely check out socialism done left

[@jstevinik3261]

@@sean640 He made videos over Mike from PA misrepresenting stats. The guy goes over leftists who misrepresent data.

[@dylanfellhoelter4296]

I’m 10 minutes in and still don’t understand what theyre even arguing about.

[@masonbarnes48]

You’re not alone

[@janelane187]

We are simply here for the arguing to act as elevator music

[@henrytep8884]

@@janelane187 this is what I sleep to. Reminds me of when i was a kid and my mom and dad would fight. Ahhh nostalgia

[@peewee130946]

They are arguing about free lol

[@peewee130946]

@@henrytep8884 nah there needs to be more yelling and then later moaning. Not sure what that was about

[@Bukiroboti]

"crazy heated debate", broken down Destiny agrees with everything said, but has a Problem with the wording/phrasing

[@cole4783]

“But the lefties!!!”

[@jstevinik3261]

@@cole4783 His titles are not quite there but close to being click-baity.

[@Rensoku611]

Twitter lefties REEE

[@jstevinik3261]

@@Rensoku611 Twitter is cancerous and unfulfilling to scowl.

[@agustin4741]

Here we go, back at it again

[@lc7173]

Damnnnn, Destiny back at it again with the lefty debates. I'm sorry.

[@yolkthosenuts]

Sadge

[@powercore2000]

Every time you think you're out, they pull ya right back in!

[@andrew66769]

@@cwg9238 you say that as if the right isn't as well lmao...

[@Dinobot2]

Destiny acknowledges and even partly concedes later in the conversation that the policies themselves aren't that radical on their own from a theoretical approach, but due to people's understanding about how taxes work and how there is a lot of misinformation, that this needs to be combatted first. You know what isn't helping 'combat' the misinformation? Destiny going on twitter basically using Ben Shapiro arguments. He's not helping the conversation or the effort to fix the misunderstanding amongst the general public that SDL alludes to (public vs. private spending, etc.). If anything, with comments like "lol why not just make everything free?", he's contributing further to and exasperating the misunderstanding. You can't simultaneously say "these ideas aren't bad it's just that in general people have a misunderstanding of stuff and you need to be careful with your messaging" and then tweet comments that imply that you think the ideas are bad.

[@ShimonYaqulu]

Based and True.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@ShimonYaqulu Honesty, as a lefty, at least half the problems in the western world can boil down to the average voter who hardly knows half the terminology in online debates.

[@ShimonYaqulu]

@@jstevinik3261 the average voter doesn’t care about the arguments. They want to know if they have security and that they can live comfortably without worrying what’s going on in the political realm.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@ShimonYaqulu Well, maybe they should, but that is why diplomatic activism can help. Argue why certain policies improve their standard of living (which can be a way to appeal to people). I think that interacting with normies is the only good thing I can say about an infamous 4Chan thread on how to appeal to normies (though I disapprove of hiding power levels as dishonest).

[@davidbrown3793]

The position of cancelling student loans for students in public but not private universities is ridiculous. If anything, private university students need loan cancelling more than public students, as their student loans are significantly higher. There are many good reasons for someone to choose a private university over a public one (location, availability of certain majors, etc.) . The idea that everyone who goes to a private university is filthy rich and therefore doesn't need financial relief is insulting. Destiny's view on this is typical of someone who didn't even finish college.

[@mayainverse9429]

canceling anyones debt is stupid they made a promise when they accepted the loan they should fullfill the promise. if anything future loans should be given out better to people who have the ability to pay it back. and we already do have free education its called the us military they train everyone for free for the purpose they are assigned.

[@ShimonYaqulu]

@@mayainverse9429 it's only Student Loan Debt, not any debt.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@mayainverse9429 Not everyone is fit for the military, which does not need further budget increases. Also, I am in favor of tuition free undergraduate university (at least for low income people).

[@mayainverse9429]

@@ShimonYaqulu so did the student not make a promise when accepting the debt? did a evil loan monster just bust into their bed room and give them a loan out of no where?

[@mayainverse9429]

@@jstevinik3261 you do realize if you spend 1 billion dollars on debt or spend 1 billion dollars on the military is literally the exact same thing except one of those you are getting functional value and the other you get literally nothing. there is literally NOTHING you could spend money on that gives less return than removing debt of failures who studied terrible majors in school or went to schools above their abilities. you do realize that the entire purpose of loans for higher education is specifically for people who can't outright afford it with the concept that they will be capable of affording it with the new found skills they learned in said school? if the literally poorest single person in the entire country gets a loan to go to school to for any high paying career no matter how poor they were before they went to school can now afford to pay off the loan after school? you realize that don't you? the only people who have issues with loans are the people who failed or people who picked shit to study. if anything file a lawsuit against universities that made false promises.

[@kirakoraawesome]

if I understand correctly, I think destiny is arguing that these policy's are bad simply because they aren't politically feasible or great optics wise? If so, I disagree with that because wasn't that true with alot of movements in the past, like suffrage, civil rights, ect, ect?

[@keithfilibeck2390]

and you just can't do it, you cannot "cancel" debt, all you can do is pay it off, which means the taxpayers will be asked to pay off the "canceled" debt.

[@monkeyapo8516]

Yes but there also have been movement in the past that have failed. Just because different political goals were achieved in the past doesn't mean that every political goal will be achieved now. The only way to refute that point that Destiny made was either a) To prove him wrong, aka it actually is politically feasible or b) Say that the political feasability is irrelevant because revolution. Not to mention that a big part of this is cost, it is very costly to make a program universal. Suffrage and civil rights weren't really things that posed a great danger to the economy. Giving everyone free food or free education or free healthcare is very costly - so it's on the person in favour of these things to make an incredibly strong argument as to why they should be universal. Just saying "human rights hurr durr" is a very dumb argument.

[@harpsmith8570]

I bet white supremacists could make an argument that giving african americans and people of color more rights harmed the economy

[@keithfilibeck2390]

@@harpsmith8570 but it didn't

[@harpsmith8570]

@@keithfilibeck2390 We're arguing about optics and perception, not necessarily the actual tangible impact.

[@gwanael34]

"A means test is a determination of whether an individual or family is eligible for government assistance or welfare, based upon whether the individual or family possesses the means to do without that help." "Means tests for public health insurance were once common but are now illegal, as the Canada Health Act of 1984 requires that all the provinces provide universal healthcare coverage to be eligible for subsidies from the federal government." I love my country sometimes

[@merlinyuang5990]

For basic life insurance, its cheaper in aggregate! Canada, as well as it's European peers, did this well.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@merlinyuang5990 I am wondering if Destiny thinks Nordic model social democracy is not feasible (which I can see why, but I would blame the voters of the US).

[@bryanchu5379]

huh this one was actually pretty wholesome at the end

[@downsjmmyjones101]

It was Destiny venting for like 2 minutes. Guy is frustrated and needed someone to listen to him.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@downsjmmyjones101 Destiny said "take care" which I suspect it maybe insincere.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

@@jstevinik3261 I don't think so. He says that to people he definitely cares about.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@downsjmmyjones101 Okay. But I doubt he cared for Vaush (in February), SDL, or TheProgressiveVoice.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

@@jstevinik3261 Why didn't he want them to take care?

[@SD1119CA]

Debate Kyle Kulinski. And to answer all your followers: debate him about politics. Any damn topic should be interesting to listen to since you two are both known for being very good debaters. But, if I need to be specific, maybe Medicare for all, progressives, or other "radical left ideas."

[@JeremyAwsome123]

wish he would do this

[@Maserati7200]

Kyle is the one that won't debate Destiny. He doesn't acknowledge him anymore

[@harrytremain5549]

@@Maserati7200 I'm not surprised, Destiny referred to Kyle's late father as a "dumbfuck" and has been anything but charitable towards Kyle for years now

[@Mitchthemysteryman]

@@harrytremain5549 Yeah, you just don't do that if you want a good-faith debate. Kyle would definitely get pissed, and I would too. I think anyone would. It's honestly a dick move to say that, regardless.

[@Maserati7200]

@@harrytremain5549 right, but OP's implication is that Destiny is dodging a debate with Kyle, when in fact the opposite is true. Destiny has indeed been pretty nasty towards him, and to this day regularly quote tweets him. Interestingly though, an actual debate might be a lot better. Debate destiny is a lot more civil and good faith than twitter and reaction video destiny

[@thelax5311]

The Lefty Arc never ends... though I kinda like Socialism Done Left.

[@nullobjecttype]

I dont think its an "arc" anymore lmao

[@ShawnWeeded510]

@@nullobjecttype true. Biden will be president. He will be shitting on lefties and Dems for 4 years straight. Lol.

[@RaghavPrakash]

Yeah, he's one of the more reasonable lefties who seems to know what he's talking about. These discussions are actually informative, along with being entertaining.

[@MCFinest2013]

his memes are very spicy

[@bigkroner766]

The most baffling part of every lefty debate is the inability to concede anything, even the easiest challenges and softest criticisms

[@ProfessorStuDDS]

You... mean from Steve right?

[@jstevinik3261]

@@montypython3014 Most people are wrong about something.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@montypython3014 Nice joke, but I admit that I can be wrong on things. I have changed some of my policy positions.

[@noted808]

The fake snoring is so cringe. You gotta stop

[@psychicandice]

Don’t use the word cringe. Ever. Especially when you preface it with a “so”

[@isaac8706]

@@psychicandice ew a loser who thinks he’s so much better than everyone that cringe is now cringe what a nerd🕵🏻‍♂️

[@psychicandice]

@@isaac8706 yes, sir, I most certainly am better than everyone. And using cringe is in fact “cringe” to use your wording

[@nitishdhamal8061]

@@psychicandice i hate to say it but legally and morally only joseph is allowed to say cringe

[@bryanchu5379]

@@psychicandice the word cringe is just a regular colloquialism of the internet and the world at this point, get off your high horse jeez

[@KhaanMuadDib]

Whether or not you agree with their positions, SDL has nuanced arguments and evidence.

[@isocratic9128]

My boi SDL did a good job

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Is Socialism Done Left replacing Vaush now that the bridge has burned?

[@Spencerwalker21]

Hopefully not because vaush actually has a brain cell

[@jstevinik3261]

@@Spencerwalker21 Vaush is pretty decent at debating Destiny to the point Vaush one of the few people I think he/she/they was not BTFO by Destiny.

[@Spencerwalker21]

@@jstevinik3261 I like vaush he really really was pro voting for biden and called out bernie or busters hard.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@Spencerwalker21 Even though I have a radical vision of the world, I (due to Destiny promoting moral utilitarianism) that one should vote for the lesser of two evils (though Destiny would argue that Dems are good).

[@levvy3006]

Vaush was always cringeworthy

[@PK-uk1vd]

Is Destiny against canceling student debt now? Like the $10,000 that Biden is planning to do or $50,000 that Schumer proposed? Not really clear from this conversation.

[@ShimonYaqulu]

Yeah, a drop out college student is against canceling student debt. I remember he was for it, but I don't know what happened.

[@johnnykluch]

His argument is that a blanket cancelling of all student debt (universal) would by and large, just help upper-middle + upper class people since those demographics make up the majority of people who have graduated college. Instead, we should use means testing to focus the money (that we would waste by paying for people that can pay it themselves) on supporting poorer alumni while working to bring the price of college down so more lower-income people can attend.

[@leroture7750]

@@johnnykluch I agree, but I would add that kids that come from families that were poor should also have their debt cancelled, or that should be factored in, to the means testing. Like if a kid came from a family that made 35k a year and is now making 100k because of the college opportunity, their past should be factored in so that more of their debt is cancelled then someone who grew up from a family that made 400k and now makes 100k. I'm sure any policy maker that is planning to means test the debt relief has already considered this though.

[@johnnykluch]

That is so convoluted. The two graduates are making the same money now. Why would you punish the person who's now out on their own because their parents made more money than them. What if a person is estranged from their family and that 400K is meaningless? The fact is, both people make enough money to be able to pay it back. Why not use that money to help actual poor people looking to enroll in college that couldn't otherwise?

[@leroture7750]

@@johnnykluch To address generational wealth gaps. Why should the kid of a poor family now be punished just because they have finally gotten out of the cycle of poverty? If you want means testing then you should consider the fact that college is one of the number one ways poor families leave poverty.

[@lordvoldemort3099]

I get scared every time destiny argues with lefties

[@thehut7467]

Hes done before the idea that destiny is going to go right wing because of a debate with a lefty is crazy by now

[@trashcan_leftist7483]

I agree with Voldemort. I LITERALLY JUMPED off ten fucking bridges because this fucking arc. Then I was somehow unfortunately brought back to life, But it didn't seem that bad at first because destiny Low key eased up on the whole "I hate all far leftists thing/extreme left = communist communist = bad!" thing, as I awoke out of coma. And now every time he dips his feet back in the left side of the pool I cringe‽!!!‽😵 And despite all this, I happen to think that Destiny has, arguably mostly by himself, done far far greater things for the left than I, or really alot of us in general have done, or ever will do, within the span of a lifetime. That within itself + his over willingness to call out the left's bullshit (sometimes rightfully, sometimes not) ...This is why it fucking works me sooosooo much to witness really the entire arc just in general‽ Plus, a certain part of me expects more from him because of how fucking intelligent he is, and how blatantly anti-intellectual/ emotion based theoretics are guiding him when it comes to topics reaching far more left than he is. It's weird, I get the feeling sometimes that it's almost like his feelings have been hurt by certain people on the left and therefore he's unable to give a rational critique of it‽ Idk‽ Could be completely wrong? That's just my feeling...

[@Alic4444]

As a lefty it's great actually. In some of these debates you get people actually talking about policy. We just need another political party that isn't an insane conspiracy cult that hates anything the government does but also wants to completely control the government by any means, and then we can actually vote on which direction we'd rather go.

[@cognizant8512]

@@trashcan_leftist7483 truW

[@shahrikamin4699]

@@Alic4444 The framing of the right as "an insane conspiracy cult that hates anything the government does" is just as nonsense as the framing of the left as "intolerant blue haired lunatics". Both are overly hysterical generalizations and in the vast cases just untrue.

[@bfloralboy9127]

This kid did fairly well. Good on him

[@dazevipr3390]

Hmmm, “you can’t have all programs universal because they cost like 20x more” ... “possibly I don’t know I don’t have the stats”. Tf man it’s just brain dead bullshit, like it isn’t just obvious the cost of a program depends on the people covered? Idk man doomer moment

[@JS-kr7zy]

@@dazevipr3390 No, it isn't obvious, and soc explains very clearly why. Destiny is only talking about a single part of the costs of a program, not the entirety of all it's moving parts and the overhead associated with its current implementation. That is the brain dead bullshit. Destiny is so worried about this brain dead bullshit because he believes it's the only message that resonates with the brain dead public, and you apparently. If they had the stats, and they supported soc's assertion, then Destiny would still disagree because "optics". That is the kind of sycophantic shit Destiny considers most important because it's a gateway to the hearts and minds of his dumb fucking audience. Lmao.

[@ephre]

Destiny is so desperate to destroy lefties that he forgets himself.

[@binodshrestha1553]

Agreed.

[@mydroogies5529]

Lefties destroy themselves with their stumbling contradictions and hypocrisy.

[@binodshrestha1553]

@@mydroogies5529 that can be true. but on the other hand, it's lot better than to follow an idiot leader like cucks which so many people on right seem to do

[@ephre]

​@@mydroogies5529 Clearly not in this case. I'll give you that this lefty was loose with some terms, but he never faltered from his point.

[@ephre]

@spacetoast7 No that's not what i mean, it made sense the way he talked about them rolling drug test into their means testing but he didn't communicate it well. The policies he was referring to were used in Britain during it's greatest time of financial equality and general prosperity. We used to have completely free schooling including university, free health care, a welfare state that actually covered living costs and regulated banking. Go figure, putting money into the hands of the poor actually worked really well for our economy, because the money wasn't being wholesale shipped offshore, it was being spent within the borders of Britain and this made us prosperous. Weird huh? or maybe completely fucking obvious.

[@millsman1037]

The other guy is saying we should subsidize schools to the point of it being free or near free for students.... We've been HEAVILY subsidizing universities for YEARS through government programs. The first major loans/grants and programs that came from the government started in the 70s and 80s, and it is no surprise that since then the price of a college education has increased 10-fold. If we completely subsidize college I think in the long run we will feel it worse in taxes over the long haul because colleges won't care about cost and will be more concerned about getting as much government aid. Which is ironically a problem with government agencies today. These agencies are given a budget every year, and in order to be in line to get a budget increase for the following year they have to use up all the budget for the current year. This leads to overspending and inefficient use of resources. I'm not saying something shouldn't be done about education, but its not an easy "hey, lets throw more money at the problem and it will fix itself" sort of issue.

[@Martins_Musings]

I’m not a morning person. I awake and roll over. Then maybe open my eyes for a few and stare at the ceiling, maybe followed by a groan or two. The prospect of another grueling workday looms...sigh. A cascade of random thoughts twinkle through my brain. The reality that many people depend on me to get up and deliver the goods.. To get things done.. Frankly, I’m just not in the mood at that point. The desire to roll back over can be quite strong and if I indulge it just a little, it could be overwhelming.. Everyone has had this experience. Life requires effort. Bleh! At some point I pop up, stretch and begin my very regimented morning ritual. When I am done, I will be charging out the door like a man on fire ready to meet the day. I know how to change my own state of mind. I know how to inspire myself. I wasn’t always that way; it was a learned behaviour. But that feeling is a universal human feeling: the awareness that the burden of life requires effort. It requires work: hard work. This universal truth IS an unpleasant thought. But what if there were a way out of it? What if my needs could be met by someone else, so I wouldn’t have to work so hard? Man that would be great!!! It’s actually a pretty exciting & inspiring thought! Dependency appeals to this universal human urge: that somehow, our needs can be met by someone outside of ourselves. The transition from being a child whose parents meet our needs to an independent adult IS a difficult one. It is painful; it is difficult to accept that your dad and mom will die and cannot take care of you forever. Most cultures acknowledge this chaotic transition in some way. It’s a crucial and vital step in the perpetuation of our species. If the next generation is not self sufficient, we begin the march to extinction, to death. Free Healthcare Free College Free Income The message is: You can continue your childhood. You do not have to feed, clothe, house or heal yourself. Just break from the suckle of your mother and latch to the government and everything will be fine. Life will be paradise. No need to produce anything of value for your fellow human beings. That is a lie of course. Appealing to these instincts is to appeal to the absolute worst of human instincts. Dependency is crippling and debilitating. It arrests the development of those who subscribe to it. The evidence is all around us. Ignorant, narcissistic, infantile children are throwing temper tantrums in our streets. Only these children don’t just throw themselves down on the living room floor and kick their legs and scream. These children burn down cities. Mama’s soft touch is insufficient at this point. It’s daddy time, alpha male time if you will. But for many, no daddy exists. There is no one in life who loves them enough to tell them that they must feed themselves, to slap them out of their delusion. A generation that refuses to feed itself is unsustainable, and will collapse. The collapse is coming, although I do not know what form it will take. There are many forms it could take. It could be a spiritual revival and a rediscovery of fundamental truths and principles. It could be a social or cultural movement of accountability. It could be a violent revolution. But it’s coming.

[@Martins_Musings]

@@timbelcijan9858 I often wonder why leftists meticulously avoid the essence of issues^^^^^, whether it involve physical labor (discounting labor involving forcing others to adopt your values) or intellectual labor. There are myriad rhetorical tools one can use to attack the proponent of an idea without exposing yourself to the idea itself. I suppose the smart ones, like any good chess player, play out every eventuality and avoid engagements that lead to exposure. It’s embarrassing, after all. My bet (and my experience) is that most are not that smart, but they do comprehend at an instinctual level moral bankruptcy.

[@tjcofer7517]

I love how this debate came down to destiny of all people arguing that someone else's optics are bad and need to change. I mean he is not wrong but there is probably a bigger problem with his own messaging than the optics of taxing someone's money and then giving it back to them.

[@xaviersgiantego1453]

??? Destiny is some twitch streamer, the people criticized here are Congress people.

[@RomoFett_]

@@xaviersgiantego1453 You did not invalidate their point. It's still rich to hear this from Mr. My private N word Destiny.

[@iansuryan4894]

So what does Destiny actually disagree on with this guy? Just the rhetoric? Lol ight

[@frbe0101]

Well rhetoric is critical to win elections and aside for getting the pig fired democrats are real bad at it.

[@4thot]

HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

[@jakelinderholm2487]

Nothing is politically viable in a McConnel senate. Even if democrats take both Georgia seats, then we still have to get the approval of Joe Manchin. Even Weak tea will not be possible. Why not argue for the best policies?

[@emmanuelhtrevino]

What's wrong with a debt jubilee? It happened in the past when wealth inequality became to great. We are long past wealth inequality being a giant problem.

[@chaoky]

destiny is cringe af on twitter

[@ShimonYaqulu]

That's not him that's his friend LeRuse

[@harleygarrett8063]

L E F T Y A R C thanks d-daddy

[@IdleWorker]

why did I read this as Left-Yark?

[@franceshogg8907]

What are they even disagreeing on

[@WhenItsHalfPastFive]

nothing really, Destiny is just making a strawman argument "well..hurr durrrr.. lets just make everything free".

[@xaviersgiantego1453]

They are referring to a twitter thread with a senator and a random rose twitter. Its kinda hard to understand without seeing the tweets itself

[@tylertone2776]

Destiny disagrees with the policy but he's pretending it's just about messaging to end it quicker.

[@franceshogg8907]

@@timbelcijan9858 I watched it they just seem to be pretty much agreeing

[@thatonedreamsomeonecrushed1912]

It's weird seeing his intro name is red but he didn't change the youtube pfp to match

[@thatonedreamsomeonecrushed1912]

@@anthonyguitron6741 ahh okay bro thanks

[@brandonk.4864]

This was a good discussion. I hate when Destiny is a such a lib though. Does Destiny actually think this is as bad as conservatives?

[@DaltonDaDigga]

And I am pretty sure Destiny is open to lefty ideas but he believe (correctly) that a lot of those ideas simply aren’t politically viable in the majority of the country

[@jstevinik3261]

@Larenus In what ways? Omitting information? Political illiteracy (doubtful, since lefties, unlike conservatives, can define socialism and social democracy correctly)? Use religion?

[@jstevinik3261]

@@DaltonDaDigga My issue is that the credibility of an idea should not be valued by viability since just because an idea is viable does not mean it is good, or vice versa. Democracy in the world was unviable in the 16th century (But to most people, it is a good idea that would benefit people when implemented sooner). Destiny argues that incest is not wrong in of itself but it is not viable (though Destiny holds his position regardless of viability).

[@jstevinik3261]

​@Larenus Efficacious does not necessary mean an idea is bad. advocating a not so popular position (such as polygamy among consenting adults) does not one is ignorant on politics (in which I acknowledge average voters are not into it, but my not so positive thoughts on the average voter is going on tangent). Political illiteracy is usually not comprehending the political process (it is possible to comprehend how the electoral college while knowing it is messed up). The Bernie or bust is more about a lack of utilitarianism or not knowing the lesser of two evils. Hating Pelosi or Warren is due to having different positions that are fundamental (though I do not get why socialists like the soc dem Bernie instead of rightful reluctance), though they forget they are the least "evil" politicians. The bad faith tactics is probably due to dumbf*** human behavior, such as belief/conformation bias. Populism is dumb, though Marxism (and especially Leninism) is not really populist, but most lefties are not definite (but semi-influenced) Marxists. I would say lefties are politically illiterate for having much stock in the average voter, but I do not think it is dumb to not like policies that have fundamental differences in a utilitarian sense (Vaush is good at this). Short answer, lefties are not as bad as conservatives (unless we are talking about particular people).

[@jstevinik3261]

@Larenus I can see it is possible to hate rich people while not caring about the poor (I guess a lot of right populist fit this bill), but then again I am a Marxist that believes in fundamental class conflict where antagonizing the owning class is a necessary action (in the long run). The drama with Vaush is just typical bs on the internet (which what I do not like about internet culture). Also, consider that leftists do not always agree on what replace capitalism (or at least the current version of capitalism in the US) let alone how to get there, which is why calling leftists NPCS is laughable to me. I appreciate what you mean by promoting not-so-popular ideas. Destiny comes off as saying any unpopular opinion is not worth delving, though Destiny has plenty of unpopular stances, such as incest. I agree that All Cops are Bastards is silly due to the term ALL which is absolutist claim. Even I think BLM could have better branding with Black Lives Matter Too, as an alternative, but heard BLM was name used for Twitter (which explains the naming issue). It annoys that bad faith is more of inter-personal behavior than arguments (I judge them by YT vids since it is easy to avoid being bad faith when scripted).

[@frogturtle]

dude...this lefty debate was so FUCKING reasonable.

[@Matt-yy1jv]

Socialism Done Left is one of the good ones though, let's be real. A stand up dude by all means.

[@socdoneleft]

pog

[@Matt-yy1jv]

@@YoBoySk33n cringe, dude is a good natured, good faith actor.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@socdoneleft Is it fair to say to Twitter is cancerous.

[@hugmonger]

I am really really hating when folks say shit like "You could make an argument..." or "Some people argue..." Like holy shit friendo, make a point or dont.

[@Benmc1994]

Why dont we just make all food free but have ads on the packaging so the food companies can still make money would love to see nord vpn sponsoring snicker bars

[@neilniraj6033]

Food is already branded tho? Like a snickers bar has snickers branding on it? Like it's sponsored by snickers lol

[@keithfilibeck2390]

you cannot work the real world like you work the Internet.

[@Benmc1994]

@@keithfilibeck2390 has anyone ever tried? I'd implement it small at first we would still have checkouts at shops but instead of paying with money you have to watch a quick 2 minute advert you cant skip before you can leave with your food

[@keithfilibeck2390]

@@Benmc1994 advertising online is so you will buy the product in reality, see how that would be a problem... If no one is buying what's the point of an advertisement for a brand, are you this bad at basic logic.

[@Benmc1994]

@@keithfilibeck2390 nobody is buying food, food would be the only thing that is free the advertising would be for everything else that is not free hence why I said nord vpn sponsoring snickers lol

[@sirlaggzzalot]

The lefty arc has finally begun, the prequels are done now it's the main series

[@micheal.s6726]

Does that come with a OVA and blu ray exclusive? 😗

[@sirlaggzzalot]

@@micheal.s6726 Yep, but if you want the bloopers and behind the scenes content that'll be in the limited edition collector set.

[@micheal.s6726]

@@sirlaggzzalot Excellent! this is going to be a GREAT weekend!

[@greyhound4204]

I hope we get the director's cut and interview with booksmart

[@TheDraco175]

How the fuck do you jump from if food is free than everything should be free?

[@brendanu3335]

So basically this was a strawman until the end where Destiny is constantly saying "I agree, but" without meaningfully making a separation between opinions aside from wording (on a fucking twitter post lol). This lefty arc is just filler now.

[@michaelholshouser6248]

Jesus just take a 30 minute break to eat.

[@Pandalius]

So another 20 minute debate over semantics again? Why is progressive messaging shit? Or maybe, just maybe, they mean what they say, but have to recant it every time there is some opposition, because of how stupidly emotional the first message was?

[@logossarsgaard572]

The worst part of Destiny arguing with people from the left is when he freaks out and says "I don't disagree!" Like, okay, you agree, why are you flipping your shit? Maybe have a constructive conversation?

[@downthehollow8699]

Phrasing won this debate

[@g07denslicer]

Let’s start with making education and health free, regardless of whether it’s a human right or not. I think they got caught up in the weeds of “the implication is make everything that is a human right free.” No, like, let’s start with education and health. Then if you want, we can talk about food. Personally I wouldn’t make food free, education and health is enough for me.

[@turkeyman631]

I mean the fact that you want healthcare and education free and not food kind of proves you just want these things for yourself and not poor people... Which is fine, but I hate how people parade around like everything they do is for the lowest class.

[@g07denslicer]

@@turkeyman631 I can see why you’d think I want these things for myself, given my particular phrasing. But how would free healthcare and college apply to me and not poor people? Of course they would apply to poor people. It’s almost a tautology. The reason why I wouldn’t make food free is not because i have a stance on it. We just don’t have a discussion about free food in this country, which cannot be said about healthcare. I’m open to be persuaded one way or the other about food. But I certainly DO have a stance on healthcare and education.

[@ScottOstr]

Mr Pragmatic, Progressive policies aren't unconstitutional 🤷‍♂️

[@the500mphtortoise]

What? This guy thinks believing everything should be free is a strawman of someone else's position but he literally believes it? So he believes a strawman position?

[@Jatischar]

The lefty arc never stops! :D

[@anthonytom-duyquang3558]

Most of the time, Destiny and SDL just disagreed on what the word "free" means. Otherwise, when SocialismDoneLeft explicitly advocated for universal food stamps and elaborated on the advantages of universalism then Destiny had no problem with it whatsoever. I don't think that's a good practice for Destiny to engage in a slippery slope, like how he stated that "Oh everything is a human right, therefore everything should be in-kind and free." This muddled the conversation and ascribed positions that his opponent didn't have. It just makes everything harder to understand.

[@RedStoner1000]

Pretty decent and civil discussion. I don't really feel like I was particularly swayed one way or another. Just a good exchange of ideas.

[@stephenpeterson6034]

I mean drug testing can be used as mean testing. Idk why that was a hot take

[@morgantempleman1709]

Except for the fact that a drugs test is not a form of means testing. The purpose of means testing is to exclude those who are well off enough that they can provide a good or service for themselves without any significant detrimental effect to their living standards (which is why in the US, things like medicaid and food stamps are means tested), hence why means testing is usually done to exclude those who earn over a certain wage, as this is the easiest way to do this. Drugs testing is done just to exclude people who use prohibited substances, so instead of trying to help these people get off drugs and fix their lives, we can instead force them into homelessness, where they then take even more drugs in order to escape not just the usually crappy life they already come from, but in addition the one that has now been made even crappier.

[@knes167]

@@morgantempleman1709 If you're supposedly struggling to have your needs met, but have enough money to regularly fund your drug usage or other non-essentials you don't NEED financial assistance to have your needs met. You need to change your choices first They're at where they're at bc they're bad with their money. Those ppl should have to agree to go through rehab first. Ppl who fell on hard times like layoffs should get priority, not ppl making self- destructive tendencies who would continue making those same choices while receiving assistance. That would drain the well for ppl that had no drinking water for other ppl that drink the water, gargle it then spit out then come back to "drink" more

[@knes167]

@@morgantempleman1709 Also aside from FORCING someone into rehab you can't make them get off drugs. Objectively speaking heres what you (honestly naive) bleeding heart humanitarian types don't factor into your every addict related opinion: There a difference between an addict who DOESN'T WANT THE CONSEQUENCES of drugs anymore, but still WANTS DRUGS and that next high. From an addict that DOESN'T WANT THE CONSEQUENCES of drugs anymore so they want to STOP USING DRUGS. (caps for emphasis, not telling)

[@vipurboy]

I always think it's funny that when we raise trillions of dollars from the middle class for various things and it's seen as normal, we always say that when it comes to making living more viable for the middle and lower class, that it's radical and, "who's gonna pay for this?" We literally pay for everything. Why is it so hard for human beings to care about the suffering of others? Why are Americans so selfish by default? Cancelling student debts is gonna do far more good because the smarter generations are, the better off the future will be. I'm tired of people being so wrapped up in their minuscule, mortal lives that they can't see humanity in the big picture. A person who plants a tree, knowing that they will never live long enough to enjoy the shade provided by that tree, but does it anyway because they know others in time to come will enjoy it, is a good person. That's what we should strive for.

[@lordoflobsters7254]

0:40 so is the logo red when its a lefty debate?

[@Spinblocker]

I love how every Destiny argument against socialism/communism boils down to "Do you really think people will get behind this?" What a great counter...

[@ShimonYaqulu]

I'm curious to what people he's referring to.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@ShimonYaqulu Average dem/rep voter. As if the credibility of an idea ought to be valued by its popularity, i.e. women's suffrage in 1848 or democracy in the 17th century.

[@AbsoluteTiger]

Destiny is completely wrong on this, and has created a straw man. If uniforms are required to attend a school (that should be subsidised so that everyone is given equal access) you don’t get your Jordan’s free! Basic nutritional supply can be given to everyone, this doesn’t cover your Cheetos & Twinkies!

[@Googlrr]

Destiny is absolutely arguing this in bad faith. I don't know why he thinks the other guy is being ridiculous, guy was right he is strawmanning him.

[@xDDufiosy]

if i call sleep a human right, the government will give me a new bed and a glass of warm milk every night. but seriously, basic food is already extremely subsidized. subsidizing farmers for grains and corn (basics) is heavily subsidized.

[@RomoFett_]

Oh no, that sounds terrible. Why would anyone dream for a more substantial living? Liberals think that providing care sounds like a bad thing to the average voter because they're bigoted against poor people.

[@truesteel9149]

Universality doesn't mean there would be anything approaching universal uptake. Everyone isn't just going to start using these programs if they have the means already.

[@alangutierrez7368]

this wasn't even that bad

[@mrmofo36]

if we all did real gymnastics the way leftists do mental gymnastics...we'd all be fuckin ripped

[@perplexingpantheon]

Season 2: lefty boogaloo?

[@dylansloth]

Damn bro this guy has no idea how much money it would cost to fucking pay for universal shit. I hate how these people just weasel around having this conversation when what they're talking about can't even happen.

[@thefreestofspeech6951]

Is Destiny's point that you lie to people about what you want until they give you power?

[@natureman494]

Destiney isn’t as smart as he think he is

[@onetrueliberal7862]

No one can be smarter than twitter communists that can't spell correctly.

[@hamzasehavdic]

well he isnt educated

[@jstevinik3261]

@Jason Simmons Destiny is less educated due to being a music major drop-out.

[@jstevinik3261]

@Jason Simmons Yes (currently). I would argue the more educated you the less ignorant one person can be. Destiny is decent at critical thinking (which not taught in schools in general), but Destiny is not educated in things like philosophy, sociology, law, political science, but that is partially because these degrees are next to worthless (so there are economic incentives to avoid them like the plague).

[@sjewitt22]

This is interesting most people in these comments don't agree with Destiny here.

[@hotmeat8565]

I’m sorry I’m a bit dumb can someone tell me what free at the point of service means?

[@gaudyshock2579]

You can get something without exchanging money but really its paid for through everyone's taxes.

[@hotmeat8565]

@@gaudyshock2579 ok thank you

[@dt_msys454]

@@sepulcher8263 It can be bad. it can lead to people consuming things that are free at the point of service more than necessary. Charging a little bit can prevent this overconsumption.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@dt_msys454 Not really. The countries with the highest number of people with college education (Canada, South Korea, and Japan) charge tuition. Most people do not over-consume healthcare and education (and if so on education, that is not a bad thing). Other things, such as food, can be available to everyone via better employment and prices prevent overconsumption (seriously, food is not free in Cuba).

[@Obi-Wan_Jabroni]

This guy never worked a day in is life

[@camron.w1841]

Neither did Marx, wonder how many working class individuals actually care about outdated ideas from theory texts that should've been forgotten.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@camron.w1841 Marx was a freelance journalist, philosopher (the old fashion way of being a streamer), and formerly a philosophy professor. You sound a FOX NEWS host saying Sanders never had a job (outside of politics).

[@jstevinik3261]

​@Benito Thambiraj Also, Marxism influenced the field of sociology, for crying outload. Also, there have and are movements inspired by Marxism. The fact that Destiny is having a lefty arc, means that Marxism has semi-relevance. Destiny cannot say that "lefty positions are irrelelcnet" while also thinking it is worth his time to have an arc.

[@mandingojd]

Didn't Destiny say he's embarrassed that his gf's Nordic country has these free basic needs and the US doesn't?

[@gtpk3527]

It's hardly free. You pay shitton of taxes for it.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@gtpk3527 Well, yeah. But if you are rich or middle income, which is not a problem with me, considering the high HDI of these countries.

[@CAKESLAPPA]

@@gtpk3527 I pay shittons for healthcare in the US, and those nordic countries pay less than half what the average american does for healthcare. You're incorrect.

[@gtpk3527]

@@jstevinik3261 Lol, everyone pays. In Sweden, lowest rate is 29% but most people pay between 49 - 60% of their income.

[@gtpk3527]

@@CAKESLAPPA What am I incorrect about?

[@PrimeCells]

Howdy omniliberals

[@jackskellingtonsora]

If you believe something is a human right, why the fuck wouldn't you want to make that available to everyone? It's a human right. Just by virtue of being alive you should have that right yes? That's what human rights means?

[@toby9364]

I need this anti lefty content like I need a covid vaccine

[@ShimonYaqulu]

Moral of the story: Never take his twitter friend seriously. I'm being serious.

[@jstevinik3261]

Moral of the story: Never use Twitter to begin with.

[@ShimonYaqulu]

@@jstevinik3261 Moral to your story: Erase Twitter.

[@jstevinik3261]

@@ShimonYaqulu Okay. Are you suggesting that it is a me problem that Twitter can be cancerous? I never had an account but viewing stuff their is unfulfilling to say the least.

[@dannygoodshirt]

Yeah bro, you should have to work 2 jobs 80 hours a week to eat a food.

[@SRT480]

The real question should be :can america survive under such crippling debt moving forward?

[@user-cj8ds9wy3f]

"Did Destiny choke on his food...? " -> 2:03 oh shit he did

[@turkeyman631]

I feel like people think if something benefits people, there can be no negative to that thing... I swear money grows on trees to people.

[@socdoneleft]

hey buds, it's me again: here are the studies I cited + the twitter thread: twitter.com/SocDoneLeft/status/1329531025228230659

[@firerocket7343]

Oh no, Destiny is shitting on Medlock, this can't be true. So Destiny here just doesn't agree the messaging and political viability.

[@anthonytom-duyquang3558]

If somehow Destiny got into a debate with Medlock, he will probably enjoy it a lot, seeing Medlock is literally a policy wonk.

[@austinrush446]

The problem I have with making certain things free is that it disincentives innovation. I think college is the perfect example. College is a shitty educational system I would argue that high school is just as shitty. Why are kids graduating with 0 skills to bring to market? The free market is already responding to this with things like coding boot camps with job guarantees. There are several industries that would benefit from the same kind of educational approaches. Part of the problem is we need society to change how they view education. This will never happen if we continue to try and promote inefficient systems.

[@mulatso7959]

Destiny mukbang - ASMR arc

[@Youtoob93]

Are you saying that subsidising things like rice or pasta and locally grown veggies would destroy capitalism??

[@TenaciousDilos]

Well, sure...

[@camron.w1841]

Feel kind if bad for Destiny. He's said before that debating alt-righters is way more fun than debating lefties which is definitely true.

[@hosti4051]

All rights are free. food is not a right unless you're a child that can't provide for yourself. food can't be a right unless we gave everyone free food.

[@jpjp9527]

Imagine caring about what someone said on twitter this much.

[@Teej_0]

Destiny: “Do you think all debt should be canceled?” *aggressively munches cereal*

[@joshweinberg9306]

Its a little sad for me to see destiny shift the dialogues once again in such an unproductive direction especially considering the state of the world.

[@cnturtle9745]

He keeps em honest. You should want reasonable criticism, that's how you improve your arguments and ideas etc.

[@joshweinberg9306]

@@cnturtle9745 I really am all for open an honest critique of all ideas put forth too, but it's a shame to see him to most angry and brutal towards the side against the opposition. Popular conservative influencers getting absolutely destroyed can't be understated as a way to sway people away from the right.

[@cnturtle9745]

@@joshweinberg9306 he's been way more brutal towards the right. In the beginning of lefty arc, he was so gentle. Lefties just get super butt hurt when he calls them out for dumb shit. There are dozens of channels that focus only on dunking on one side. That's not what Destiny does. He's not an idealogue or grifter.

[@camron.w1841]

@@joshweinberg9306 I get what you mean, guess Destiny doesn't like dumb radical ideas on both sides.

[@RomoFett_]

Fascism is at our doorstep knocking. Destiny: Hmm, let's see if Lefties are being consistent.

[@NathanAllebach]

Destiny vs James Medlock debate when ??