TWiV 869: Epstein-Barr virus and MS, a perfect storm

TWiV reviews epidemiological and experimental evidence that infection with Epstein-Barr virus leads to the production of antibodies against a viral protein that cross-react with a human protein, leading to multiple sclerosis.
Show notes at www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-869/
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I’m Vincent Racaniello, Earth’s Virology Professor.
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[@GIBKEL]

You have no idea how insightful this TWIV was. I was diagnosed last year with MS after seeking answers for my instinctive feeling that something was not right within me. My first symptoms(fatigue and depression episode in teens) and then a recurrence of debilitating fatigue in my mid twenties and then sought answers for some 27 years and with a spinal tap, was diagnosed as it screamed MS. I had three episodes of mono beginning at age twelve and was sick for 9 months, then a year later, 3 months, and the final outbreak of a two weeks over a period of three years. It has been a roller coaster ride with most doctors discounting my symptoms as depression and yet at the same time i have fought everyday of my adult life to find an answer to a disease process I knew i was in the midst of. I have not been able to deep dive like i used to when the internet was nascent as the information now is so diffuse and contrary. I refused to go down that rabbit hole but because of covid, i found your TWIV project and it saved me against what i instinctively felt was a death sentence. it's through understanding that I can face each day and summons the courage and energy to not give into this disease until Im spent. Covid felt like a death sentence for someone's immune system has over reacted to most viruses, allowing me to stay somewhat healthy, as it stops viruses in its tracks but a novel one I felt would put me into unknown territory. This show has been a life saver both physically and mentally. You have my never ending gratitude and I will donate to your cause which happens to be 'Our' common cause. A better understanding and solutions to the maladies that will eventually plague us all.

[@silviopina_111]

Goodness Pre War... thanks for sharing that, my heart goes out to you. And while I do nt have your challenges, I rank TWIV amongst my top ten "savers" over the pandemic.

[@GIBKEL]

@@silviopina_111 -information is key, when hysteria is battling for headlines. And then you darkly stumble into that glimmer of interest that keeps you engaged with reality. Making the right choice of information is fundamental to what comes next. When your health is on the line, absolutely imperative. You might not know until it’s too late. I’m so thankful for TWIV.

[@wandamitchell4815]

It took three years of hell to diagnose me with Chronic Epstein Barr Virus 🦠

[@lesfaby8997]

Links for this episode 02:08 ABRCMS ePoster Spring Symposium for Emerging Scientists 03:11 ASV Annual Meeting Registration (ASV) 03:46 Microbiology & Immunology at LSU Health 05:11 Viremia in human poliomyelitis (J Exp Med) 25:11 Peyton Rous 28:32 Offit on Rous 31:09 Musicians with polio 33:12 two papers connecting MS and EBV 40:05 EBV associated with MS (Science) 57:34 MS antibodies Bind EBV EBNA1 and GlialCAM (Nature) Timestamps by Jolene Thanks Weekly Picks 1:33:58 Dickson Rapid intensification of the emerging southwestern North American megadrought in 2020-2021 1:41:02 Brianne Which Immune Cell Are You 1:42:29 Rich Nikola Tesla 3D Anamorphosis 1:44:33 Vincent Pauls Uncle Doesnt Want to Get Vaccinated Listener Picks 1:45:38 Bob The 1969 Apollo Guidance Computer 1:46:04 Anne Decoding the Gurus with Dan Wilson 1:47:21 Beth FrenchGuyCooking 1:48:13 How to Contribute

[@cat_vaxxer3512]

Thanks Les, much appreciated

[@deborahfreedman333]

When I took virology, back in the late 70s, we were taught HSV1 could also infect genital tissue, and HSV2 could also infect oral tissue. There wasn't a site specificity, but where sores developed was more about how the virus was transmitted.

[@guygrotke8059]

I got Techfidera (dimethyl fumarate) for my MS. That knocked out my CD4s to the point my neurologist told me to stop because I was in the PML danger zone (positive for JC virus). That was in November 2019. I had Covid-19 in March 2019. and recovered with no treatment. That was back when WHO had told everybody not to treat it. By the time I got my first vaccine, my CD4 level was back up to 75% of the lower normal range. I seem to have had good responses to later vaccinations. It could be my immuno-suppression actually protected me during that Covid-19 infection! But I prefer to think it was my 100 ng/ml Vitamin D level. With no other treatment for MS since then besides the Vitamin D, I have had zero acute episodes and zero disease progression. I'm on about day 5 of an Omicron infection today, and the vaccines are working fine.

[@RiDankulous]

"He was like a poly-functional t-cell". The greatest compliment one could receive from a virologist =D

[@angelsvasquez8353]

Hahahah for real

[@surfreadjumpsleep]

Has a similarly sized study looked for connections between common viruses and Alzheimer's?

[@minRef]

I’m sure you could find a bunch. For me this brings to mind Alpha-Synuclein, (although usually more relevant in Parkinsons and Lewy Body Dementia), since it has turned out to be an antiviral protein. Paper title: “Alpha-Synuclein, a Novel Viral Restriction Factor Hiding in Plain Sight” I’m sure you could find a dozen papers by googling “Alzheimer’s caused by viruses”.

[@patriciahoke4722]

"People are gonna think about how to prevent it because it's a crappy disease." Vincent, people HAVE thought about how to prevent it. Look at Terry Wahls, MD.

[@ScotHarkins]

If only there were easy and cheap solutions to the Colorado River and other such challenges. We have the technology. We have the money. We do not have the will to put those things together, and even then the solutions won't restore things. People will have to move. Farming and many industries will cease to exist in the impacted regions. It all just falls out from there to a new and currently unaccepted equilibrium. How long before we abandon our own versions of Mesa Verde?

[@silviopina_111]

Is there a Peabody for podcasting? TWIV deserves a Magnificent Award.

[@CestLePanda]

My experience, chronic neutropenia that just becomes the norm at some point long after the acute EBV infection event, rather persistent and even hard to detect peripheral neuropathy, ongoing fatigue that isn't always severe enough to cause abrupt fainting usually, but bad enough to gradually but surely affect your quality of life and ease of doing daily tasks that were once easy enough to just handle. At some point, at 25 I had a TIA that left me with paralysis of half of my facial muscles, tongue, and loss of use of my right arm and hand for a rather what must have been no more than 2 minutes before I regained my mobility again. Only to be told by multiple doctors that I was too young to have had an actual TIA at the time. I'm 34 now and my quality of life and deteriorating energy levels as well as immune and inflammatory symptoms are problematic and elusive enough to cause me to not be taken seriously by many doctors or loved ones, but bad enough to make me feel isolated and like a failure that just can't get my self together enough to just work and focus harder. This isn't a life anymore, and most of my doctors obviously think I'm probably a hypochondriac at this point. Also, I was found to have an EBNA igg of >600 units, ebv vca igg of 122, and ebv vca img of

[@kylieb5323]

Do you know (or speculate) if there is a higher incidence of MS later in life in patients who developed infectious mononucleosis when compared to people with an asymptomatic exposure to EBV?

[@personzorz]

I'll bet you that that's the case

[@joyh5904]

Really interesting. I have a different autoimmune disease and will be starting Rituximab soon. Learned a lot. Thank you!

[@trudyziegler4977]

Alberta, the province in Canada where I live, apparently has one of the highest rates of MS in the world but no one seems to know why that is. I have ALS on both sides of my family tree. Learned a lot of really interesting things from this video!

[@michaelt.8956]

Dixsion comes off at times like he's a bit goofy, but the man is near genius! Loved his input with of course everyone else too.

[@justleif7]

To echo AMR comment below, thanks! for this clarifying discussion of etiology of Polio disease which has thoughtful implications for creating a model of the etiology of "Long COVID." Despite the fairly recent study by the CDC indicating SARSCOV2 presence in many organ/tissue types, the strong possibility seems to be a complex class of downstream effects of initial viral infection tied to an individual's systemic responses.

[@priyasingh-po5yr]

love this team ! learn so much with such happy engagements & experiences from the past . if learning would be such fun this world would be a better place .🙂

[@kimmer8547]

So interesting! I have high TPO antibodies and have been told that one trigger for my Hashimoto's was EBV. I want to get tested to see if I have had EBV. I'm wondering if one can tell if I've ever had this. I also have some type of herpes, the cold sores once a month. Thank you for covering this stuff. Opens my eyes

[@AMRosa10]

51:34 I think that Vincent misses that you may not need sterilizing immunity to prevent MS. You would likely only need to attenuate the immune response by clearing the initial infection quickly in order to prevent the activation of autoreactive B and T-Cells. I think that one of the things we are learning from looking at COVID is that the longer it takes to clear the initial infection, in other words getting infected without being vaccinated, the more opportunities there are for the immune system to go down paths which are self-reactive and cause the damage of Long COVID, or in the case of EBV, MS. So a vaccine against EBV may only need to be effective enough to minimize the viral phase of the initial infection in order to have efficacy at preventing subsequent MS.

[@yz492]

But without sterilizing immunity it becomes latent as an episome, and recrudesces.

[@AMRosa10]

@@yz492 However, as Brianne was speculating, you need to stimulate the autoreactive B-Cell and have it activated by just the right CD4 T-Cell to end up with autoimmunity. Therefore, if you reduce the amount of time it takes for the initial infection to clear, you reduce the number of B-Cells that are recruited during that stage of the infection, and likely reduce the chances of stimulating the autoreactive B-Cell. Plus, if you make a vaccine against epitopes other than EBNA1, then you will be stimulating B and T Cells through vaccination that do not lead down the path of autoimmunity. These cells will dominate any memory response when the EBV virus is encountered, further reducing the likelihood that EBNA1 reactive B-Cells are activated. Even if the virus becomes latent, whenever it reactivates, the response against it will come from the vaccine produced memory, and as long as the antigen(s) used was not EBNA1, you more than likely will not produce autoreactivity. You don't need sterilizing immunity for a vaccine to sufficiently prevent post-viral sequelae.

[@Turtledove2009]

I have to say it yet again...Brianne has the most beautiful smile.

[@vinlago]

Regarding water, the southwest is dry. Everyone who lives there should know they live in such an area that doesn't naturally have abundant fresh water. Aside from that, the US Navy is well versed in desalination techniques. It can be done.

[@DennisMathias]

In Nebraska groundwater levels are actually up from the 1980s.

[@Polkadotpup]

I thought this episode was great. Love the history, and I always learn something new. I drive my friends nuts by starting a conversation with, “Well, did you know…”

[@jenniferwinsor7740]

I love! the conversational style of these podcasts.

[@GadZookz]

The incubatorial ambiance is high octane today. 💫 Will the future hold fungal discourse?

[@Peter_S_]

Gus is a fun guy.

[@silviopina_111]

🤣🤣🤣

[@silviopina_111]

@@Peter_S_ 🤣🤣🤣

[@joseluislepezuniga7340]

Vincent, to Rich question regarding the pathophisiology of polio paralysis it was stated that it is due to central NS damage when in fact is due to peripheral motor neurons damage in the anterior horns in the medulla.

[@nickturnock3369]

What a scary episode. How do any of us make into old age? Thanks.

[@jillstruthers]

I❤️TWIV. Fanatic discussion!

[@streitrat]

Military is used as test subjects for a *lot* of things!

[@streitrat]

I have MS...no EVb!

[@peterjf7723]

@@streitrat No EBV that you are aware of, it's frequently asymptomatic. Chickenpox virus, another herpes virus have also been implicated in MS.

[@OldOneTooth]

Do people who get ebs early in life get ms? How early? Protected by maternal when the catch, later?

[@amyrugala246]

Another GREAT TWiV. Thank you!

[@aline-wn3ig]

hi, I would like you to add subtitles in Spanish, I am very interested in its content but there are words that I do not fully understand

[@zyzzyva303]

You tube tiene subtítulos automáticos con traducción. Puede activarlos desde el menú de configuración de video (el icono de engranaje)

[@aline-wn3ig]

@@zyzzyva303 los subtítulos no están disponibles

[@Starclimber]

@@aline-wn3ig Translation to Spanish subtitles works for me here in Canada. Sorry in advance that/if it doesn't work for you.

[@aline-wn3ig]

@@Starclimber Thanks

[@cherylkeithley7303]

Vincent, I just watched an episode of 60 minutes where doctors used the polio virus to destroy a fatal brain tumor. Did you see it?

[@Turtledove2009]

Damn interesting. Have to listen to this again tomorrow morning.

[@silviopina_111]

I ❤️ your cat!!!

[@uptoeleven]

Rituximab isn't not indicated in MS, it's mostly the humanised ocrelizumab and ofatumumab - although rituximab is used in MS (just not indicated). There is a theoretical PML risk in the MABs particularly in those who have failed tysabri - neuros have to keep an eye out for symptoms.

[@arbaretailsystems4722]

Thank you for this information!

[@carolwong9279]

Ok this is uncanny but I just ate an orange then broke out with a cold sore!!!

[@sarahbrome5564]

🙀

[@nickturnock3369]

And I was just about to eat an orange but decided to break out the coleslaw.

[@vinlago]

Is it Measles or attenuated measles from MMR or MMRV which are MS associated? How would you know? I've never known so many people who developed MS than in the past 30 years. 2 in my family. Several friends. All younger than 60 years of age. None known to have EBV. All had MMR or MMRV. One of those with a particularly degenerative case of MS had a high fever and seizure within hours of the MMR. Perhaps it's time to spread those out. Perhaps administer Mumps, Rubella & Varicella separately from measles for those without family history of reactions to measles vaccine or family history of MS. Are we allowed to make such suggestions or is this tantamount to heresy?

[@lesfaby8997]

EBV is mostly asymptomatic and over 90% have been infected. So your statement "None known to have EBV" is false. Instead, you would expect 90%+ to have been infected.

[@vinlago]

@@lesfaby8997 my statement isn't false. Reread it. I stated clearly none "known". Aside from EBV the other question still stands. Or, is that topic verboten?

[@lesfaby8997]

@@vinlago You were presenting that argument because you were trying to assert that EBV was a factor that could be ruled out. If 95% of people have been infected, if you asked your doctor or your postman, he would tell you with those odds, that argument is nonsense. You cannot rule out EBV nor have you been able to rule out a million other things. There is a former British doctor who was banned from practicing medicine there after being determined to be a fraud who had his own competing vaccine. He was paid by ambulance-chasing lawyers to help them extract money from MMR manufacturers, He did not disclose that. He also was about to be canned because he was a researcher that needed to publish a paper to survive. His data was made up. He left his nation in disgrace. His name is Andrew Wakefield. The other people on the paper assumed a researcher would not fake data. When they found out he had faked it, they withdrew their names. Prof. Brianne Barker as well as the immune system profs on IMMUNE say the immune system is designed to handle multiple antigens. They don't have a problem with handling them since they have to do that every day. My doctor told me about an anti-vaccine Mom who gave her your argument about multiple antigens while her baby crawled over and started chewing on the doctor's shoes. Doctors give the combined shots because children are much less likely to miss being protected against all 3 diseases that way. Reference: "Epstein-Barr is a ubiquitous virus that infects 95% of the world population " JASON WOMACK, MD, and MARISSA JIMENEZ, DO, Rutgers University, Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, New Jersey Am Fam Physician. 2015 Mar 15;91(6):372-376. www.aafp.org/afp/2015/0315/p372.html

[@jayg6138]

Elon Musk Conman of the decade. Change my mind. thunderf00t covers him a lot.

[@DennisMathias]

Well, yeah, anybody that can start a successful car company and launch rockets and return them to earth..can only be a con man.

[@peterjf7723]

@@DennisMathias Tesla motors was not founded by Musk.

[@DennisMathias]

@@peterjf7723 .yea, tarpening, I know

[@JimbeauxGo]

Links for this episode: 02:08 Be scared, be very scared! 03:11 Take the booster! 03:46 Conservatives are stupid! (not scared enough!) 05:11 You really should be scared, very scared! 25:11 The vaccine is 100% safe!! 31:09 Conservatives are not taking the vaccine! (not scared enough!) 33:12 You really should be more scared! 40:05 Fear is necessary to get to 100%! 57:34 Why isn’t everyone more scared? 1:33:58 Politicians need to build more fear in the populace!! 1:41:02 Conservatives are really stupid! 1:42:29 Chance that we are wrong: ZERO! 1:44:33 No one has actually died from the vaccine!

[@Turtledove2009]

Oh for heaven's sake - you are so paranoid!

[@peterjf7723]

You appear to have significant cognitive problems that are confounding your comprehension.

[@EvonZundel]

Nothing about the vaccine in this episode, troll. You must be a conservative.