That Time I Saved the 2023 TF2 Summer Update (Troubleshooting Obscure Source Engine Problems)

[@balintkurucz7245]

Imagine going through all this, then just telling the mapper to "rotate this one brush by 1°", and provide no context. He'd be flabbergasted

[@TheDiner50]

Na. You do not make such a grate Hammer sauce map without being kicked and * enough to be happy that it did not involve some proper jank to fix. This is just a normal day in the sauce. Just happy and thankful that someone saved there map. Not really surprised what was needed to fix it.

[@multigrandmarquis]

this is a standard programming thing i doubt anyone who's familiar with source would react with anything more than a tired "yeah that seems about right"

[@PROPLAYEN]

Source is so stupid that this is just the average one off problem

[@mechtroidProductions]

As both a programmer and a mapper, my guess is that it has to do with the Intel and AMD FPUs (floating point units). On old code, the two vendors can have a different epsilon (number so close to zero it rounds to zero). I'm 99% sure the brush was so close to parallel with the ray bouncing off it that dividing to get the difference in angles between them ended up being a divide by zero error on intel but not AMD, poisoning the color info with NaNs, throwing more and more of the map into darkness. If something like this happens again, you can confirm the problem by compiling the map with 1 or so light bounces and finding the dark patch in the world to get a clue where the problem lies. Also, to solve it faster in the future I'd recommend messing with the position of the lights, not the brushes, there's far fewer of them.

[@mechtroidProductions]

(why reflection angle would mess with color info is another question entirely, but has to do with fresnel, which affects how reflective a surface is based on the reflection angle.)

[@squigglycups5666]

If I'm not mistaken it's usually bad practice to go off grid in hammer because of how much floating poat inprecision affects compiles.

[@iHateHandlesGetRidOfThis]

god i hate the fact i understood this comment

[@ghoulbuster1]

Intel being Jank like always

[@WalnutBun]

I had almost the same exact thought and came down here to say that it's probably a floating-point precision error. You explained it way better than I ever could.

[@Randomstuffs261]

Source engine likes to punish you, not because you did something wrong. But because it can.

[@fojisan2398]

I love this great engine but at the sane time I hate this garbage engine

[@Randomstuffs261]

@@fojisan2398 Sauce is love, sauce is hate.

[@jondoe6608]

I get that source is jank. But floating point numbers are also jank no matter where they are used lol, so I'd not be harsh about it. This is likely a rounding error that resulted in a zero that then got a value divided by it. Floating point errors are notoriously hard to debug and edge cases are very tricky to find. As someone who has worked with software, its not a type of problem that is unique to Source. As for why only on intel, AMD and Intel (depending on what compiler is used) have different thresholds set until a number is rounded down to zero. (epsilon) If that is not the issue, it could also be an issue with SSE code.

[@fojisan2398]

@@jondoe6608 Kinda like how Linux and Windows have different ways of rounding.

[@bestestbread]

It runs by its own rules…

[@Connorses]

>An error with map compilation >caused by one brush >rotated at this exact angle >in this exact place >as a func_detail >Localized entirely to Intel CPUs? >Yes. >May I see it?

[@zynzeki]

>No.

[@Rhoran]

@@zynzeki SKORZYN! The map is on fire!

[@zynzeki]

@@Rhoran No Rhoran. It's just the solution_to_a_dumb_problem.vmf.

[@chpsilva]

​@@zynzekiHEEEEEELP!

[@zynzeki]

@@chpsilva 😬👍

[@GermaphobeMusic]

Piece of wood: _rotated by a millimeter_ Valve: "This little maneuver's gonna cost us 51 years"

[@taxcollector9543]

man, source engine 2007 is laughing in his grave so hard its shaking

[@uis246]

​@@taxcollector9543what do you mean?

[@SmileytheSmile]

And that, kids, is how you use the binary search algorithm.

[@bottuja]

I think they did just that with the cordon tool.

[@b.r.207]

That's for school girls. *Points at exhaustive search* Now here's a search with some chest hair.

[@squigglycups5666]

Idk why but the fact it was just an off grid func detail is a real letdown. I thought he was going to be actually working with others to fix this.

[@SmileytheSmile]

@@bottujaThat's what I meant, in retrospect a better comment would have been "And that, kids, is how you use the binary search algorithm." Ah what the heck, I'll just edit it to that.

[@thewoodpeckers655]

HELL YEAH

[@liamsandersonmusic]

I’d imagine valve is going through a different but similar idea of source fuckery with trying to get VSH to run in casual

[@mrhat1073]

my guess is that Casual has been so broken since the beginning that it can't support VSH. can we do away with Casual already?

[@alt1763]

the creator had to go through some source fuckery trying to get the game to function player wise, aka, not spawning players in early, not kicking spectators for inactivity, allowing players to not respawn, etc

[@wolfcl0ck]

The weird thing about VSH is that it *only* breaks in casual. As far as I understand, it's even fine on their testing servers, which means that the thing breaking it is probably a casual mode code hack.

[@Delayrix]

vsh breaks because Valve didn't test it on casual servers, the server crashes after someone joins blue team. How do players join teams in casual?? Autobalance.

[@lenship2]

its broken because of how casual matchmaking works; it always tries to put you on the empty team with the rest of your party, but the map itself is trying to contradict the casual matchmaking queue by forcing you onto a team you literally can't be on according to the matchmaker, leading to the crash

[@1lucia]

Honestly great showcasing of how to find errors like this. Everyone that has a couple years of experience with Hammer had to do this at least once lol

[@UEAKCrash]

Definitely the idea. After I figured it out and sat back to think about the stupid process I just had to go through to find one single brush causing the issue, I was like, hey, this would probably make an entertaining and informative video. Source engine is wild, haha

[@DrHundTF2]

The so many times I had to copy me whole map and paste it into a new file just to be able to launch it without a crash are uncountable. But probably 4-6

[@TheDiner50]

@@DrHundTF2 Yea. I bet. It is insane that there was no rituals or something needed to take place to solve this Intel compile problem. I can not even blame sauce or Intel to be honest. This is far out of bounds to be that simple. The blame has to be put on the evil within this cursed old source code. Agen Hardwood got away without major sacrifices taking place? How lucky we are! :)

[@pao_lumu]

She nan error on my Intel floating point unit til I *P A S T E S P E C I A L ! !*

[@UEAKCrash]

lmao

[@luigifan4585]

[EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER]

[@omniscientbarebones]

@@luigifan4585She rotate my func_detail till I RGB VALUE NaN, NaN, NaN!

[@Ultimatum227]

Unironically now I want to join a Hardwood match and see the piece of wood for myself lmao. Like an attraction for tourists or something 😂.

[@UEAKCrash]

I took a screenshot standing in front of it in my first game, lmao. I kind of forgot I did that, I should've included it at the end of the video.

[@omniscientbarebones]

@@UEAKCrashwhat is the area you can find this singular plank?

[@bamlcd]

That's a good idea lol

[@aronkardos4230]

@@omniscientbarebones I think its between the first and second point on the right side if you are on attacking

[@KyleBrownIsALoser]

hopefully there was people laughing at that dumb piece of wood

[@mush9921]

hammer is a piece of ancient technology that the space marines in 40k are terrified of uncovering

[@RainbowsClone]

how the fuck did a wooden wall being rotated at a specific angle cause the entire lighting to break lmao

[@yspear_]

Spaghetti code

[@CanuckRabbit]

the lovely world of floating point values

[@Noruzenchi86]

So basically, hammer *really* hates when you have "microbrushes," like those smaller than 1 unit on any XYZ axis. Also unusually small geometry, angled and intersecting brushes. Judging from the top down view, the two func_details were trying to get combined with the faces overlapping, so the engine didn't know which face was assigned to which brush. They were also positioned halfway inside and halfway outside eachother, intersecting at the middle and creating both a tiny space and tiny block.

[@jondoe6608]

@@yspear_ its a floating point rounding error, even clean code bases suffer from edge cases, its very tricky to get right (im talking from experience lmao).

[@LalitoTV]

Really puts into perspective how even just getting maps in involves more work than most people think

[@sib315]

Also shows how smallest things can mess up your work i once played with coding the whole program woudnt work becouse i put n instead of m in one word

[@seronymus]

​@@sib315which word?

[@Content_Deleted]

@@seronymusdeez

[@invalid_user_handle]

My only possible consideration as to why this error happened, is that in the version of the compiler that is Intel-based, it was compiled to _slightly-different_ CPU instructions than the AMD version (think to the old 'small health pack gives 1 more health on Windows-hosted TF2 servers than linux-hosted servers because one uses a different multiply instruction' issue), and somehow the stray brush was causing the Intel-based light-bouncing solver which is specific to func_detail brushes (since they aren't world brushes and usually entities don't interact with lighting they're given special treatmenT) to FREAK THE HELL OUT and end up with an invalid number when trying to solve the light direction (which then proceeds to screw up the rest of the map because it bounces lights 100(!) times, which would lead to any light hitting a corrupted surface also becoming corrupted, because (any number) +-*/ NaN = NaN), but somehow the AMD solver doesn't because of it's different processing methods. That isn't so much Source-related spaghetti as it is just regular old code spaghetti, because programming just *adores* making such specific detailed bugs like this.

[@noobez8o]

needs more likes

[@Wyatt_James]

Intel and AMD shouldn't be using different versions of the program. They use the same instruction set (x86-64 in this case), and thus, are fully compatible. It could be some weird bug in the CPU, or some instruction set extensions not being enabled on AMD for whatever reason, or what have you.

[@vibaj16]

@@Wyatt_James Another commenter suggested that it could be caused by AMD and Intel CPUs having different thresholds for how small a float can be before it rounds down to 0, and that a light ray was almost exactly parallel with that piece of wood and caused a divide by 0 error for Intel because it got rounded down to 0, and through some weirdness that error somehow got into the RGB value for that light ray

[@AlexEatDonut]

Oh my god, I remember this issue. Back in 2018 I kept posting this kind of "blacked out map" screenshots on your discord server. I remember you took my vmf and bruteforced it with cordon tool, just like seen here. I remember that you narrowed it down the a func_details that I made by skewing it. It was my lesson to never skew any brushes.

[@TheAmazingHerosquad]

An angle of possibly less than one degree caused an entire map to break down... fucking hell source must be a nightmare.

[@bajsbrev4651]

All this damn compiling makes live in-engine editing seems like a godsend

[@reptarien]

I love how the solution to this problem was so simple but would have completely borked the update process because of how small it was. And like others have pointed out, this is a masterclass in using a binary search to solve an issue. Great video and presentation!

[@g0reshow]

Compiling is such a fucked process, man. I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard that an issue with Valve's compile is what led the Cashworks spawn bug to be possible.

[@Zack_Wester]

tge what?

[@g0reshow]

@@Zack_Wester After the update came out, it was briefly possible for RED to get inside of BLU's first spawn.

[@KimFareseed]

When I first heard of the bug, my first thought was; "Did it break in the compiling or something?" The map had been around for 14 years after all. Such a major bug would have been found and squished out way back then.

[@EaTStu]

I'm so glad my dad has taught me how to troubleshoot problems, its the most useful skill i could possibly have because stuff like this happens so often

[@pux0rb]

This is why I like to have all my world and detail geometry on-grid, even if its super tedious to make every vertex line up so no concave surfaces form. That being said, I've never run into any problems putting things off-grid, but even after 10 years of mapping source still scares me enough to not take chances.

[@friendofp.24]

Seriously. I never, EVER, fuck with brushes like that. Literally making brushes where even all the vertices are on grid but the faces are angled still scares me.

[@UEAKCrash]

Honestly I do it all the time, my brushwork turns super messy by the end of a project, and this was the first time I've ever seen this sort of thing happen

[@pux0rb]

@@UEAKCrash Unrelated, but its a total coincidence. I was just thinking about this video today and was going to re-watch it for fun, and then I got a message that you responded to my comment an hour ago.

[@Casapillar]

I’ll never look at that wood the same ever again. Great work again Crash!

[@hkhjg1734]

Thank you for servicing and finishing Hard Wood.

[@UEAKCrash]

heh

[@MrNicosaure]

To be CPU specific, it's a math problem To only show up at specific angles, it's a float value being rounded, everything handles float differently; CPUs, OSs, programs, anything can change how rounding is done As for Intel vs AMD, it comes down to how many decimals they convert, I believe Intel goes 3 digits (maybe 2? This keeps changing over the years actually, so I wouldn't be able to tell for certain) further than AMD, I'm guessing when given really small float values, Intel will round way down where AMD has no other choice than round up For a more practical example, let's say the problematic angle was 0.000000001, Intel will keep the number as is since it can handle it, will give it to the program that will look at it and go "My math functions only handle 5 digits after 0, when parsing this reads [0.00000]", and give a bunch of NaN errors, meanwhile AMD will look at that value and say "Nope, too low, this is too ressource heavy, let's round it up to 0.00001" then give it to the program who will accept it without problems Someone probably commented on this already but at least I can say with confidence the Source spaghetti wasn't the culprit for once And if you're wondering why everyone and their mother is doing floating points differently, that's because everyone thinks their way of doing it is the better choice when in reality they all have issues, you saw what being too accurate can do, but you can probably guess why being less accurate would have its issues as well

[@bestestbread]

I’m glad! Hardwood is my new favorite map, and it inspired me to get into mapping! I honestly find it the highlight of the summer update! (I still love selbyen)

[@Tukaro]

tl;dr: Map was too hardwood. Love not only the explanation but going over the troubleshooting process. (Bug hunting is the only part of programming I can stand anymore.) I'm reminded of the parable of the printer technician. To paraphrase for those who don't know: Newspaper printer does an ope, techs can't figure it out, they call in a specialist. Specialist looks at the machine for 30 minutes, turns one screw three rotations, printer works again. Newspaper billed $5k and, when they balk at the $, specialist replies "$100 for the 30 minutes I was there, the rest for knowing what screw to turn and how much."

[@sheacorduroy5565]

I think LazyPurple put it best, “THAT’S BECAUSE IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSEEEEEEE”

[@This-Was-Sparta]

Absolutely fascinating. Love videos like this. It's like the feeling of satisfaction you get from finally understanding a bug in your code without having to spend >3 hours debugging, lol.

[@Pinsplash]

this looks a lot like a bug i had in a csgo map (free nuke) but it was caused by two displacements occupying the exact same space but with one flipped around

[@IJusaI]

Having had to go trough a similar process a few times, I've never seen such an obscure issue. Well trouble-shot!

[@t3dotgg]

Just wanted you to know that I still come back to this almost a year later. Within the best debugging videos ever made

[@JTCF]

The method of searching for the problematic region is an excelent demonstration of binary search, bravo!

[@t3dotgg]

What an incredible journey, thank you for sharing it 🙏 My theory is that the Intel vs AMD difference is because Source is using some weird pipe for rounding things at angles, and Intel has different behaviors than AMD for that edge case. Maybe an overflow? @lowlevellearning this might be up your alley

[@t3dotgg]

I’ve come back to this twice now. Genuinely in awe

[@kritzmaker]

"wow, i love this map! i cant believe valve chose the map!" floating point numbers:

[@silvialuzmia]

It's nice seeing how things work

[@Kapparoach]

I also have an Intel CPU on my PC, and I ran into this issue once while compiling a map. I also managed to fix it with similar methods, although I deleted the affected func_detail and remade it entirely. Great informational video, but one thing that I'd like to say; you should include a mention about the compile logs' GatherLight bounce stage "added RGB(nan, nan, nan)" in the description, so people who are experiencing the issue could find this video with a Google search and get a solution to it.

[@UEAKCrash]

Good call, I'll have to add that in

[@APaintBucketNamedHuey]

Peak Source Engine moment

[@CK-eb5tq]

Crash: I did it, I save the world.

[@astrosthefox]

Would LOVE to see more stuff like this- seeing solutions to weird obscure problems in hammer/source, it’s so interesting

[@HankRichard]

Such a weird problem with such a weird problem. Glad you found the solution!

[@whoopas312]

I guess it must have been a HARD wood to find

[@TrustyGun2]

Troubleshooting is an underrated skill, good job bruv

[@angelex4891]

Such an amazing explanation to an obscure problem. Marvelous work¡

[@MrGermandeutsch]

Good old Source Engine. Driving us insane since 2004.

[@mustafaaustinpowers5748]

Mappers like you are greatly appreciated in TF2,just letting that one out.

[@Gamepro5]

I was hoping the conclusion would explain why it happens. I didn't know this engine was held together with duct tape and dreams. Also, congrats on describing "debugging". Welcome to the club!

[@FissionMetroid101]

I don't think even shounic could unfurl this knot of spaghetti. Great save dude!

[@SquidsTv]

That's incredible man.. Troubleshooting such an obscure issue, sucessfully! Props mate, thanks for documenting it too

[@Huguito]

I remembered to have similar issues about "wrong brushes" and "wrong map vertices" in normal goldsources maps that I made years ago. It made me stop working in Valve Hammer tool, because it's really annoying having unsolved problems into maps.

[@JTCF]

That is definitely some kind of floating point precision bug, as "nan" is a value of a float, just an invalid float. I speculate that this might happen either because of some conversion somewhere (like from 64 bit precision to a 32) or simply a bug in intel's silicon, in which case... lol

[@anstheram]

I am really glad I tend to make maps more aligned to the grid, I would have never been able to figure this one out. Source is wild, man.

[@ViciousVinnyD]

I wouldn't be surprised if immediately after that comment, it shat out a NaN error for perfectly straight geometry and only on AMD cpus. hammer just loves to spite that way

[@jondoe6608]

​@@ViciousVinnyD its a floating point rounding error & I don't think its fair to say it out of spite of lack of care. Floating point errors are notoriously hard to debug and edge cases are very tricky to find. As someone who has worked with other engines, its not a type of problem that is unique to Source.

[@ViciousVinnyD]

@@jondoe6608 Oh I didn't mean out of the carelessness. I was just joking that source heard what you said and somehow found a way to break just to spite you!

[@jondoe6608]

@@ViciousVinnyD Ah lol, my bad

[@MimicKairatta]

I think it might be caused by a collision/input check outputting more than the native kernal of Intel can handle in the backend of reading he program through hammer, thus removing the oldest output in order to process the map. Oldest output being the lights.

[@Justanothertgrt]

I really liked this video not only because of the whole story around it, but because it shows that sometimes "all" you have to do is go through 4 hours of simple testing and testing and testing to find the tiniest error and the simplest possible solution. By no means did you need to be a rocket scientist to do any of this. But ho boy did you need an admirable amount of patience, dedication and passion to narrow the issue half by half by half until you honed in on a fraction of a fraction of the map. Nice job dude. Thank you for doing so much for this community.

[@szyl]

very cool insight to a mapping issue, this was a very good watch

[@devuano]

Thank you for all your sanity breaking work Crash! Maybe take a mental break for a few days.

[@nolram]

I loved this video. Watching experts troubleshoot source engine jank is always lovely to see :)

[@sir-scudio]

see, this is what happens when you have an engine from 2004 be held together by gorilla glue and duct tape. (as a mapper, i love yet hate source so much)

[@AtocStowwe]

I feel like the rounding error is probably the most likely one. As a rule, if you're gonna rotate anything in source, try and round its rotation to a full integer of degrees, since Source *really* doesn't double-check its math as much as it should, and it *REALLY* doesn't like decimals. Rescaling displacements, rotating func_details, all of it is gonna give you grief later on.

[@lychy645]

64 bit cpus can handle 32 bit x86 perfectly fine

[@AtocStowwe]

@@lychy645 You're probably right, I'll remove that bit from my comment. I'm not as knowledgeable on L1 as I probably should be.

[@yacan1]

Dude this rocks. Would love to see more Crash Case files

[@PsychedelicPenne]

Wow almost like they should add Farmed and Brine to the Summer update maps (please 😢 (also Extinction (please!!))) Also Hardwood still crashes the game for me and my buddy on occasion - haven't been able to play on it for longer than 10 minutes total I'd say. Regardless of all of that, I love how you break down your thought process here. This kind of problem-solving is, I feel, the bread and butter to a lot of computer science applications. Cool to hear about it step by step!

[@6lbs._onion]

achieved with Sorse ✨

[@DirtblokjeExtra]

would love to see a map tier list vid of yours about all the maps in tf2 (halloween maps etc included) would maybe seem interesting to hear your opinion on all maps in the game

[@UEAKCrash]

Personally I'm not a big fan of those kinds of videos, I feel like rating work creators have put in can be cruel, especially for me being so connected to the mapping community. I try to focus on the positives rather than trying to say anything is better than others.

[@Misuune]

Nothing like the satisfaction of finally fixing some super obscure issue that happens for absolutely unknown to you reasons.

[@FBombFitzgerald]

Still bummed Shoreleave and Overgrown didn't make it. I also liked your fishery map too.

[@UEAKCrash]

Same 🫠

[@Aviiven]

Interesting i remember having trouble with this all blacked out map error thing in the past.

[@janlohndorf9665]

And this is why, kids, you always ask help with mapping issues because only Gaben knows how convoluted Source is.

[@Nonamesleft]

I can really feel the nerdy love-hate relationship you have with TF2 and it's Source engine jank. Your passion for the game is infectious. TF2 wouldn't be the same without people like you dude.

[@SurrogateActivities]

i will laugh taunt at that fence brush

[@CharaGonzalez-lt7yw]

Good video as always. Ezcited to see what maps you su mit for this scream fortress, which I'm actually excited about for once

[@UEAKCrash]

I've got some *stuff* in the works that I'll hopefully have ready in time

[@CharaGonzalez-lt7yw]

@@UEAKCrash 😳

[@CharaGonzalez-lt7yw]

​@UEAKCrash I don't know how many other map makers you know but if ever someone's short of a map idea, halloween Cactus Canyon would be amazing

[@Duck9K]

the jank is real on this one

[@jack_5344]

holy shit an error so so specific caused so much damage godamm source

[@hlibushok]

"Ironically Hardwood was being defeated by this Single Piece of Wood, this Bastard Plank, this Timber Monster, this Specific Beam of Doom appeared to not only be the Bane of myself and mappers involved in this creation but also Valve themselves"

[@FreshTillDeath56]

Crash, you're the MAN! Cheers pal!

[@DrHammerr]

I encounter a bug like this nearly every single time I try to finalize a map. And it's ALWAYS a weird func_detail brush I have to remove/replace/modify in order to get it working again. It sometimes represents differently, sometimes the lighting breaks, sometimes the map won't compile, sometimes certain walls won't render or will render as an eldritch mess of polygons instead of a brush, but it's always solved using the exact same method you described above. Hell, sometimes the cordon trick doesn't even work because it's like, a T-junction error that only happens when a certain number of func_detail brushes intersect/touch non-func_detail brushes! At this point I usually start by seeing if the issue persists with only func_detail active since I have such a bad track record with those guys. I was actually hoping an established mapping figure like yourself would have learned some magic shortcut for this issue, but I guess I was debugging it correctly this entire time. Ah, the life of a source mapper. Pain.

[@elimcgamerguy]

This error happened on my map, koth_spacebase(check my steam workshop)! I was checking every brush just to find that one of my ramps was off-grid. Fixed it and bam! lighting fixed! The issue still haunts me. had no clue it was an Intel thing.

[@RotBrainOP]

I can only imagine the mapper's reaction to the problem legit being a plank of wood not being in the correct angle. I would absolutely lose it if it were me xD

[@zypireal]

13:15 that left ear clicking man.

[@UEAKCrash]

Supposed to be a fireplace sound effect, lol

[@ZaccoOfficial]

This video is actually fantastic.

[@Whomobile]

I'm not smart enough for this

[@UEAKCrash]

Same

[@soviut303]

The Hardwood map looks really beautiful. I'm glad it was able to be fixed so it could be included.

[@nick-playercharacter8583]

Identifying Wood: Source Engine Edition

[@twelvethousandths1698]

UEAKCrash has revived!

[@stevethepocket]

You know, I wonder if this is partially the result of having been made in Hammer++, which retains the full floating-point coordinates of off-grid vertices instead of rounding them. In fact, now I wonder what would happen if you loaded the unfixed map in OG Hammer, re-saved it, closed it, re-loaded it, and compiled it.

[@GrandHighGamer]

Seems unlikely not one of the test mappers, including valve themselves, wouldn't be using the original base version of Hammer though.

[@GigasGMX]

The Forbidden Angle.

[@Ariamaki]

I regret to inform you that this isn't Source spaghetti, this exact kind of weird interaction between number precision and rays and rounding is like... Nearly universal. If not this problem then very similar but very different ones. You only know it as Source spaghetti because Source is the engine you're familiar with, but there is no programming system on the entire Earth that doesn't run into its own off-label take on this same brand of weirdness just as often.

[@donaldpetersen2382]

Duplicate grouped brushes made into a function have caused me problems. My solution was to ungroup and then re-group anything duplicated just incase it became a function.

[@Matzu-Music]

I've actually gotten a similar issue (AMD user). I've personally fixed it with "-bounce 0" (dk why, just worked for me) Edit: I will be investigating any strange brushes

[@phoenixtheceikraill]

I never mapped (or ever will) map for Source games. Troubleshooting is a great step, even if you lose a bit of your sanity along the way. Still though, interesting why this happens on one brand of CPU and not the other, for once...It isn't the engine that's at fault. I've honestly been in similar situations of troubleshooting for hours, only to find something so small that causes a problem.

[@slonkazoid]

Lots of software compile differently on different CPUs. For example, at one point in time, AMD's DKMS modules for ROCm didn't compile if you were using a 5.x kernel AND a non-Intel CPU (ironic). It got fixed later afaik.

[@slonkazoid]

But in this case, it's almost definitely a floating point error.

[@phoenixtheceikraill]

@@slonkazoid Floating-point errors are wonderful huh? XD

[@robuxyyyyyyyyyy4708]

Source is probably this way because it's a modified version of a modified version of quake

[@subsonicwave64]

valves wooden beam of doom

[@fireaza]

Buff GoldSource Engine: "Modders can use me to make any kind of game they can possibly imagine!" Cheem Source Engine: "I can't render the lights because of the angle of this func detail."

[@mil260zs]

Compilepal sometimes does not show errors that lead to some stupid errors or even making it impossible to compile the map

[@lifesymbiont5769]

Thank you for your work

[@simpson6700]

back when i still used hammer, i always snapped vertices to the smallest grid when moving things off angle, not because of any game breaking issues, but because the objects would look more pleasing. Would've saved me in this case.

[@RandommBoyo]

I was prepared for anything, but this exceeted everything I would've imagined

[@Techhunter_Talon]

Love the humor of a piece of wood causing problems for a map called 'Hardwood'. XD

[@sleepyboogobrr7811]

This has to be some kind of self-torture

[@Fezezen]

The only thing I can think of is a division by zero error causing the NAN, but I'm not satisfied with that.

[@BossKnight]

sad I can't play this map caus it crashes my game with lag, I hope it gets fixed for that too cause I love how it looks!!

[@Ploxtifs_OldAndDeadAccountXD]

Source spaghetti is the socal freeway system on steroids