TF2's Stair Problem

TF2 has a stair problem. Let's (try to) fix that.
0:00 Intro
0:32 The Problem
0:55 Clip Brushes
2:36 Block Bullets
3:56 Block Bullets 2
4:19 Invisible
4:48 Nodraw
5:08 Invisible Displacement
6:13 Displacement Solution
7:46 Brush Solution
8:23 Model Solution
11:15 Outro
▶ TF2's Door Problem: • TF2's Door Problem
▶ Everything Wrong with Dustbowl: • Everything Wrong with ...
▶ My other TF2 stuff: • TF2
▶ My TF2 shorts: • TF2 #shorts
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💬 Discord: / discord
#tf2 #teamfortress2

[@FBombFitzgerald]

Stair-ghetti code.

[@placeholderdoe]

Translate to English “Stair-ghetto queues”

[@adsadadadadadadadassa]

fard-getti

[@bananaman8939]

Ba dum tss

[@chpsilva]

Quake physics saying hello

[@MasterChaoko]

Stairway to Pootis

[@mcluigi117]

Rocket jumping was invented before stairs in the TF2 universe; they just haven't perfected the technology yet at this point in the timeline.

[@Spai798]

underrated comment

[@spookyscaryskeletons578]

Yeah, i don't think we have to """fix""" them if they are clearly just canonically accurate

[@258thHiGuy]

Thank you Abraham Lincoln

[@FGC292]

Thank god for Abraham Lincoln and his invention of stairs.

[@Gron_Here]

Abraham Lincoln, the first Pyro and the first man to create stairs!

[@historiasdeinternet2585]

another posible solution: replace all stairs with ramps

[@FBombFitzgerald]

The Americans with Disabilities Act salutes you!

[@mundanest]

This is a pro-ramp agenda and we will not follow silently

[@ihavenoideadanny]

should we tell him

[@NetherFX]

Did you watch more than 5 minutes?

[@Xezian]

guys he meant literally replace them with ramps so that you don't have to use clip brushing at all, which makes the appearance of the ramp match up with the collision perfectly, no gaps to trick you into thinking you can shoot through when you can't, decals apply perfectly, the sound matches up, and rockets can't pass through.

[@scantyer]

TF2 is just like my grandpa, they both have a stairs problem

[@redgit9905]

💀

[@PeppinoDripwth]

💀

[@guyfromusaa9164]

🏴‍☠️

[@hambass6310]

☠️

[@tfg009]

🩻

[@DrHundTF2]

An alternative for those who are obsessed with stairs, is to have a ramp, of the material of your choice, then have the steps added on them, but be a func_illusionary or any other non-solid brush entity. This way, it acts like a ramp, and sounds like the material below. May or may not have decals, I can’t remember.

[@LEDs]

That's an interesting idea

[@WaffeFIN]

Note that a func_illusionary adds one entity towards the entity limit. If it causes issues you can (according to the wiki) change the func_illusionary to a func_detail with a %CompileNonSolid material

[@0Blueaura]

@@WaffeFIN perfect!

[@cossetta]

i like the bump at the bottom of stairs, i find it helps especially when you're walking backwards! subconsciously makes it easier to tell where you are going

[@LEDs]

I feel that

[@dylanllewis03]

whynot add a tiny block bullet ramp to the bottom? so rockets dont get caught in that lip, and lets players still experience that bump

[@Die-Coughman]

There's one more thing to consider with the model solution. The model solution causes lighting to be done per vertex instead of per luxel(with lightmaps). For those who don't know what this means, this basically means that the model will have lower fidelity lighting than just using brushes. This can be fixed by enabling lightmaps in the entity properties of the prop but I've read doing that for a bunch of props quickly inflates map sizes.

[@irregularassassin6380]

I think a lot of players aren't going to be too bothered with some lower quality lighting on staircases. The differences in some of the before and after lighting fixes I've seen in LED's videos seem so inconsequential to me, that I think no one but a mapper would really notice. That's not to say it wouldn't bother the mapper, but sometimes "good enough" really is good enough! At the end of the day, gameplay functionality trumps everything else.

[@shizamikaze]

watching you trying to snipe that heavy in between the stair steps makes me remember when i was fresh new and tried the same in those windows with chicken wire lol

[@LEDs]

Lol I think we all tried that

[@scylorn]

tf2 has Skeletons, Monoculus, HHH, Robots from rd_asteroid and Merasmus. I believe they count as NPCs and therefore can pass through playerclip brushes and get blocked by clip brushes. MVM robots don't count as they're reskinned bots.

[@drucy.]

So giant robots are just upscaled bots ?

[@scylorn]

@@drucy. same technique as on halloween map Crasher.

[@id85181]

soon enough tf2 will have an essay on every single element of every map. droplets from a leaking pipe.

[@jpuc5568]

That’s how little content is being added to the game

[@infinityheart_tm9270]

I warned you about those stairs bro.

[@TheGudeGamer]

See, they warned you about the stairs, bro.

[@ataraxianAscendant]

IT KEEPS HAPPENING

[@paradoxicaloutcome1007]

You told them, dawg.

[@IAMStormyNautilus]

I'm so happy that people are still making these references

[@infinityheart_tm9270]

@@IAMStormyNautilus *Refrances.

[@Rraichuu]

The difference between the Clip brush and the Playerclip brush is that bots can pass through the Playerclip brush and all

[@LEDs]

This isn’t true in TF2.

[@ultr4nima]

That’s true, though it’s irrelevant in TF2 since the game doesn’t have NPCs like Half-Life 2 does so in TF2 there isn’t a practical difference. Since there’s no difference I like to use one for out of bounds areas and the other to smooth out movement within the playable areas (stairs, small corners, simplifying complex geometry etc)

[@FrenchRarity]

"Bots" in TF2 are technically AI controlled player entities, so the brushes act the same whether or not you're a bot. That makes Clips and Playerclips virtually the same in TF2. HL2 meanwhile, like @@ultr4nima mentioned, have NPCs which are completely different entities. Those can walk through Playerclips.

[@clockworkpotato9892]

What about MVM ​@@ultr4nima?

[@Goat_gamering]

Bot players? No. Mvm robots and skeletons? Maybe.

[@keeb__]

I can't believe there isn't just a brush you can change the properties of to fit your needs. It's just silly to me that hasn't been implemented in hammer for all of the games

[@LEDs]

Yup. We should be able to control many more things, but we're restricted to a finite amount of settings that often can't even be adjusted (like how sticky bombs bounce off of func_brushes, there's no way to get around that)

[@philipgelderblom6878]

Never thought stairs could be this interesting

[@BallsBlaster69]

stair death = funnuy

[@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360]

The funny from the tf2 cant be denied, as doing so would wipe out the only hope against "them"

[@SurrogateActivities]

cl_ragdoll_fade_time 0 is a crime

[@regalblade8171]

The tf2 funny is a sleeper agent, once you have any slight thought of doing it, you instincts do the funny​@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360

[@metalfan1890]

"Ayo the pizza here"

[@kurzackd]

I didn't understand anything, and I've probably been playing TF2 since before you have touched a computer. Care to translate into English, for normal people, please, kid? :O .

[@Seal849]

In tf2 mobile edition, you have to jump up stairs because it renders them as a "wall" but going downstairs is normal.

[@midend]

claptrap hates this video

[@Gyozaplanet2]

Lol

[@carbonrobin]

Stairs?!? NOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@Blucario90]

The problem is with how explosions work in general. Since it draws lines from the origin, split stair sections block the explosion. However, having a full smoothe surface doesn't let projectiles or bullets pass through. I think the only way to solve both of those would be to have stairs where each individual stair is its own sloped brush. While that is convoluted, I think it would solve both rocket splashes and passing through stair gaps. Either that or just make it so your stairs don't have visual gaps in-between the steps.

[@durrbill]

excellent deep dive into stair clipping, i've been wanting a video like this in relation to tf2 for quite some time. it's genuinely fascinating stuff

[@LEDs]

Thanks for watching!

[@Banjo1756]

so this is why Abraham Lincoln invented rocket jumping before stairs

[@thelonelylump4015]

2:01 I feel like it’s good for if you’re backing up. You can see the quick jolt on the screen and know where you are

[@pux0rb]

I think the best solution would actually be to create a bunch of modular slope models at the common ratios (1:1, 1:2, 2:3) and give them each 2 skins; one opaque and one transparent, so that its easy to place them in hammer at skin 0, overlapping them to fit your staircases, but you can then change the skin to 1 and they're invisible.

[@LEDs]

Hmmm, you might be on to something there...

[@888ian2]

is this a reupload?

[@vukcaj9558]

Yes

[@benglennon7366]

This is also a problem on lfd2 custom maps when map makers add 0 clips to the stairs lol

[@WonkOfWonkyness]

Absolutely amazing. You're a real one hope this catches on with all the people getting into map making.

[@axmoylotl]

7:26 this made me laugh so hard. It's a perfect example of what developing soft is like

[@SleepingPajamas]

Is this a reupload?

[@Lo-Sir]

An eleven minute long video on stairs and their issues in a game where I barely even think of stairs. Perfection

[@Nbc66]

Could fix this issue if valve made a func_brush where you can just specify whatever you want using it

[@LEDs]

Yeah, it'd be nice if you could specify each type of collision for everything in the game. That'd be an all-in-one package

[@tehjamerz]

8:23 i LOVE where this is going ...nvm

[@_ikako_]

i really really hate jumping on a badly clipped staircase or one that hasn't been clipped to the ground and losing all forward momentum entirely. not just rocket or sticky jumping but just regular jumping as well. there's no real reason for it to not be clipped to the ground, those awkward bumps on the sides can be smoothed out with a corner pyramid-shaped clip

[@irregularassassin6380]

I'm a Medic main, so explosive jumping isn't my bag, but _dear god_ is it annoying to be running away only to trip over nothing. You go from having a chance to escape to winding up a sitting duck for a horde of angry mercs.

[@LEDs]

Yeah, those flat parts at the bottom of the stairs can potentially sling you straight up if you launch into them at too shallow of an angle, killing your momentum

[@KimFareseed]

3:22 A frustrating inconsistency in maps.

[@irregularassassin6380]

I'm very glad to learn that I'm not going insane! Sometimes I shoot through stairs, and sometimes I can't. Ugh.

[@KimFareseed]

@@irregularassassin6380 I mostly try with the machina for sniper. Let's me know if it did get through or not in testing.

[@irregularassassin6380]

@@KimFareseedAh, very clever! I'm terrible at sniper, so I'd have to test the stairs in every map offline to not be a dud to my team. lol.

[@TwinkleNZ]

I love how stairs in source are just rough

[@CopperCogStudio]

I think the more appropiate solution for the camera jitter would be to interpolate the camera upper motion when climbing stairs so it stays smooth.

[@fantastikboom1094]

But what about issues with explosives and bullets?

[@MrSpecialjonny]

you really left that shot in with heavy shoot the ground instead of the stairs, priceless

[@BottomOfTheDumpsterFire]

Just re: stairs, not being able to trimp or surf up staircases imo is a feature, not a bug

[@_ikako_]

i know this isn't about stairs, but this reminded me of a really weird piece of clipping on pl_pier that i think you should take a look at. on first point, when you go up the tunnel to the flat area with the mega ammo pack, the very right side of the exit of the tunnel has some really weird clipping. I tried rocket jumping off the corner and i just got stuck on something. there seems to be a rogue piece of clipping that stops you from hugging the right side of the tunnel (right side if you're attacking up the tunnel) and it's really infuriating trying to use that 'pillar' to rocket jump

[@Shizuka965]

Ty for making another video, I love watching those vids

[@Geckur0]

in the clip brushes segment, they could make the stairs not collide with the player, then make the clip brushes fall halfway through the stairs/ that way they wouldnt have to extend beyond the stairway

[@themoabrigade]

It's beginning to look a lot like dust bowl, sentries everywhere!

[@mrrooter601]

7:22 "soliders rockets are the only thing that dont" good, like soldier needs it to be any easier to spam

[@colricht]

I won’t claim I understand most of what you say in your videos, but you do great in my opinion. Much love

[@LEDs]

I'm glad you enjoy it!

[@Ne1vaan]

Ahhh! Now I know why most stairs block hitscan even though I can see through.

[@LEDs]

I didn't mention it in the video, but it's an especially big problem on Upward in Blu's first spawn. There's a staircase by the main exit that you can hide behind as Sniper, but cannot shoot through.

[@readyforlol]

Can't believe I was teased a perfect staircase for 11m only to learn there is no such thing.

[@eoxTF2]

that was a great lesson of how stairs works in tf2 ,great job led👍

[@hlibushok]

The Final Solution to the Staircase Problem.

[@Tasteful_Edits]

Gotta give it to this guy. He spends a lot of time messing around to help mappers make sure that we are not mildly infuriated.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

The perfect solution is to make maps wheelchair accessible. Stairs were a mistake.

[@zetalyn28]

stairs

[@chairwood]

problem 🙅🚫

[@picuco]

sairs

[@nigeladams8321]

I don't know, I usually don't need an explicit visual confirmation I've taken the first step onto a staircase.

[@octopusjacket3472]

I found funny how after so many years playing a game as old as this and having almost 0 changes to the game in the last 7 years, the community has found all sorts of niche stuff to go in deep about, it started with core mechanics like random crits or sniper balancing that almost nobody complained about in like 10 years of tf2, later random bullet spread and now we talk about stairs, it's curious how tf2 has such a dedicated fan base that we pay attention to things like this

[@LEDs]

To be fair, not a lot of documentation exists about mapping-related stuff.

[@InsnThndr]

i did not know about the mountainlab thing. ive been playing tf2 since 2009 😐

[@hanswurst5109]

Wheelchair accessibility denial. Truly something only TF2 could do

[@JiyakuBuraku]

I definitely watched this before, why the reupload?

[@skinnybuggo]

Yeah, gotta be at least a week since i've seen this

[@UseZapCannon]

It seems like the solution for the Bottom-Step problem is "just design your stairwells so that the bottom of the clip ramp is contained in the doorway, and can't be approached from the side anyway"

[@LEDs]

It can look weird though

[@Thornskade]

I don't like inconsistent solutions in games. It always means one person with more specific knowledge about an area with stairs gets an advantage over someone who doesn't know. I never aim rockets at stairs since I always assume they'll get caught but it's not always the case. This is not something I as a player should have to remember. Unfortunately this is one aspect that Valve hasn't paid enough attention to during development and now we're stuck with this inconsistency which sucks

[@TrustyGun2]

I LOVE 10 MINUTE LONG VIDEOS ABOUT CLIP BRUSHES (im not even joking)

[@Bebe-fq8yb]

Interesting to note that CSGO had this explosions issue, where HE grenades wouldn't do any damage if there was something small blocking it from the player. They fixed it in 2020 though so now even if there's something small in the way (e.g. an unclipped step) grenades would still do damage. 3kliksphilip made a video on this here kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHaXYaWhf9p8mMk

[@BeerDone]

Just imagine what would happen if they kept the ladders.

[@Green-the-military-man]

Unrelated to the video I found out if you sticky jump with two sticky’s you reach the sky box right but you can see out of the map idk if you already showed that but I frogot

[@ChampionOfDummies]

Only tomorrow on the stream Zesty Jesus talk about "TF2 stairs youtube content" and now, today - this video comes out 😄

[@neondead2.0.15]

At least Dragons Fury and scout's Christmas Ball works on them now, so they less broken than before.

[@LEDs]

Oh you haven't seen everything 😉

[@bareth_]

5:08 nice captions

[@LEDs]

lol

[@felixftw4702]

i actually like the jagged stair movement, but i know tf2 is a movement game, so i would suggest bringing the jaggedness back in smaller, closed areas and having the ramp-stairs in open areas

[@r.g.thesecond]

Given how brushwork defined Valve games for like the first 20 years, frankly I expected less jank.

[@RevenaSurniak]

They should really consider teleporting airborne players upward in accordance to their max step height Like you hit a ledge but because the lip is below 40 hammer units, or however many the actual step height is, you get zipped up and your velocity is maintained. It sounds kind of complicated to program, especially considering there is already a lot of code for slopes and such. It still presents the problem of it looking really jagged, but this is something I've fixed in my own projects though. I use UE4 though, but something similar could maybe be done in source. The character's model's vertical position is blended over multiple frames, the speed of this "interpolation," changes depending on the movement state of the character. Grounded characters interpolate slower than airborne ones, etc. These two changes in combination with each other could very well fix a lot of issues with stairs and save mappers a lot of time with clipping.

[@RevenaSurniak]

As far as what an actual example of what the code could look like as an outline, that's what this reply is for. Keep in mind I don't have experience with Source. TF2 and other source projects could make use of hit detection for when players hit a wall of some kind, similar to how they handle landing. For this to work, ideally, we'd want as little overlap with whatever code for slopes exists so we can minimize how many bugs these changes inevitably present. A lot of code from how tf2 already handles steps can probably be used over when the player or other characters are airborne. So a lot of this might sound familiar. To do that, we can probably check the normal vector of the surface the character hit, see its Y or Z coordinate, whichever corresponds to height in source, and just see if its 0. This ensures that whatever surface we did hit is a plain-as-they-come-by wall. (Or step) Next you can check the vertical boundaries of this brush surface and do some math to figure out how close to the top they are. Because we already checked if it was a wall, we only half to worry about height. If the difference between the player's minimum boundary (the bottom of their collision) and the top of the brush surface is less than the character's step height, then we've found a candidate for a step we can walk up. If we've found a proper candidate, we can do a quick collision check to see if there's any room for the player. We have to do this to ensure the player doesn't get teleported into a wall where to brushes meet or anything like that. If all of these conditions are met, the player can be teleported up and their momentum preserved.

[@ButtonMasherReal]

Am I going crazy? I swear I watched this a few weeks ago. Did you reupload it?

[@ChoomOfDoom]

It amazes me how long this game has barely held together after all these years with Source Spaghetti

[@MrGermandeutsch]

I've always used a compromising solution for the "first/bottom-stair-syndrome", which was to simply make a second clip brush, but with an additional ramp on one or either side as well. However, I'm not sure how this impacts gameplay though.

[@LEDs]

Several people have commented that they do this, but it's still kind of weird considering that you start floating in the air when you're not even in front of the staircase. It can work if you have a stair that is extruded outwards, but if it's flushes with the neighboring walls, it's weird.

[@Frank_Erz]

Stopping trimping is a good thing though

[@fantastikboom1094]

I think the same. I do not consider it a game mechanic because... it is not. It's unintended behaviour that also makes no sense. Rocket jumping is more real and intuitive than this.

[@meemdic8682]

“Stairs in source have always been a _bumpy_ issue”

[@user-25352]

randomly went to this video after watching some more Tunic playthroughs, and for some reason your channel's icon looks really similar to an image found there...

[@Drunken_Hamster]

So what we really need is a brush that makes a smooth ramp for player collisions, projectiles, explosions, and particles, but allows hitscan passthrough, draw decal passthrough, is invisible, and has a configurable surface sound?

[@LEDs]

Yes. But also, things like stickybombs have to stick to it and not deflect off.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

@@LEDs That was implied with collisions/projectiles. Anyway, I scrolled through the comments and saw some interesting stuff and want to ask if you've experimented with some of the things suggested or otherwise further done more research/testing and possibly found a solution?

[@VAN1UM]

I really just watched a video all about stairs in a video game

[@jackie.dee.01]

Very informative! Game levels are mostly made of props/models nowadays anyways

[@LEDs]

In Source 2, they've sort of become one of the same!

[@TF2SA]

Very well-done video my friend, I am fond of such details and happy someone would go over them and their potential solutions in such detail 🔥

[@zer_pp]

why does my brain automatically read anyone that says "my friend" with a arab accent?

[@TF2SA]

@@zer_pp Because I am indeed arabic.

[@helohel5915]

What happened to the original video for the reupload?

[@xinus2286]

im sure someone has already asked this. but would using $additive instead of $translucent fix the rockets passing through? if you make an additive texture that is 100% black. it should just be insivible in theory.

[@LEDs]

Yeah, somebody brought it up, but I haven't tested it yet

[@CorpsesReborn]

Stairs on 2fort right next to spawn can be shot though with engis turret, any info on how those stairs are setup?

[@LEDs]

They use clip brushes, so your bullets can go through the spaces between the steps

[@CorpsesReborn]

@@LEDs Ahh thanks, explains that engi spot. :) Edit: btw that spot is a great anti bot position. rescue ranger ontop with a dispenser and the bots tend to shoot the stairs, if you have the turret placed right its a easy strange farm

[@zedz2360]

Lord help you if you have to shoot a rocket at someone on stairs

[@Drawing_Pad]

Or Valve could just do what Garry's Mod did, having various clip brushes with different surface materials.

[@LEDs]

That wouldn't fix all of the problems though.

[@UberSpah]

I wish the source spaghetti would be removed from TF2. Snipers, scouts, pyros are all just an annoyance, but spaghetti... is our true enemy.

[@superbasement4.567]

in my point of view, editing the player's body movement with the stairs and similar levels would be better than a character's body floating in air while "walking" on stairs like cartoon physics. I admire many creators effort of fixing the stairs, but I also recommend to fix the mercs movement so it will look realistic.

[@DrHundTF2]

That would probably require IK leg rigs, which might be possible. I think a Gmod addon did this, and I even saw the tech used in 2002 in Ratchet & Clank, including responsiveness to the surface’s angle

[@superbasement4.567]

​@@DrHundTF2 true, Ratchet & clank had that. I don't understand coding but as an editor I understand how it works from a directing and looking for x solution. So I would like to see that in TF2, and in the big update (I HOPE SO) they add it.

[@fantastikboom1094]

@@superbasement4.567 The problem is Valve doesn't really care so anything related to code fixes/additions is impossible. We can only help it with maps and existing properties for assets.

[@superbasement4.567]

@@fantastikboom1094 Let's mention this in our FixTf2 invasion !

[@CarrotStixBro]

Can valve just put all this shit to work already. God I love the amount of fixes from one guy.

[@LEDs]

❤️

[@CaveJohnsonTopG]

'I feel like I am a minion who is my slave from my Indescipable movie when using the Team Fortress 2's stair." Gru

[@Zero2HeroX]

God i fucking love the source engine so much

[@_mootin6858]

For the invisible displacement have you tried "$alphatest 1" instead of "$translucent 1" to allow rocket collisions?

[@LEDs]

Yes

[@apchistuz]

what about a func_brush with the material type you want to use (wood, metal, etc) but in the render mode you set it to "Don't render"

[@asda211-vq6zd]

It'll be like blockbullet2 since it's basically an invisible wall

[@LEDs]

stickies bounce off of func_brushes

[@atticusnari]

I don't know why KZbin decided to hide this from my subscriptions. They know I clicked these videos immediately when I see it

[@LEDs]

😟

[@baconlabs]

Professor Mann has ONE weakness!

[@jeanlucnurrenberg2083]

IT KEEPS HAPPENING!

[@lovedeath9075]

wave-shaped clip brush

[@CK-eb5tq]

Can believe that you namage to make a video about stair in a game interesting.

[@n0range689]

Hey LED, how do you record your gameplay on custom maps?

[@LEDs]

I use two computers so that I can record on one of them and act out the scene on the other. I also record demos for when I need to show two players.

[@n0range689]

I feared that you might say that. 😢

[@denifnaf5874]

It also has a bot problem

[@fantastikboom1094]

So?

[@IamBread_01]

What program are you using to edit and play the map

[@LEDs]

I edit the map in Hammer and load it up in regular TF2

[@valcaron]

This was solved in Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3 engines. Why do later engines struggle with this??

[@puzzlepuddles6712]

what's the difference between a player clip and a regular clip then?

[@LEDs]

In other Source games, the player clip brush doesn't block bots. But in TF2, bots collide with both versions just like players

[@jefflovett5924]

I don't give a fuck about stairs in TF2, but I love the dedication it took to make this video.

[@LEDs]

Thank you 😊

[@ex0347]

i have an important exam in 10hours, why am i watching a video on tf2 stairs