Uh Oh! What If Hybrids Are The Answer? - AAH 674

[@AliM-mh1bk]

Two very significant things are happening next year. First, the rebate will come right off the price of the car. That’s a really big deal. The other thing is that starting next year, basically all brands will be an able to use the Tesla chargers. That is huge. These two things are game changers.

[@billybobbob3003]

THE VW BUG HAD A FRUNK BEFORE ANY OF THESE EV'S lol REAR ENGINE FRONT TRUNK

[@electrictroy2010]

@billybobbob3003 LOL irrelevant. Most EVs have 2 trunks (front and back). The VW never had that .

[@nathanroberson]

@5:50 Model 3 cost on par with a Toyota Camry And Mary is doomed.

[@electrictroy2010]

@nathanroberson I hope you’re joking. Model 3 is over $40,000 with taxes & fees. A new Toyota Camry is almost $10,000 less .

[@Beatles4Sale.]

I can get a new Model 3 in my state with the incentives for about 28k. That’s a new car in inventory which gets a slight discount. That’s plenty affordable. But I do agree it will be years before every model and size has a cheaper electric variant. In fact I think it will take Tesla in about three years when they start lowering the price of the Cybertruck as they’ve built to scale and limited cost to force the industry to lower truck prices. They’ve done it with there other cars. The same will happen with the Cybertruck.

[@AllenTweed]

Oh good grief. In several states in the US the Tesla model 3 is less than $25,000 after all incentives have been applied. As we go further, production costs will continue to decrease.

[@electrictroy2010]

@AllenTweed MINUS 15,000 in govt incentives in most states?? 26+ states? Hardly. There’s also a lot of states that have zero EV incentives, so you’re paying the full $40,000 price (taxes & fees included). Many people can only afford a Civic or Corolla for $19,000 .

[@brucec954]

Nerad doesn't seem to understand economies of scale and that new tech is always more expensive in the beginning but BEV will ultimately cost less than ICE or Hybrids as supply chains / batteries are ramped up.

[@at4466]

US builds 8.8 mln vehicles, China - 23 mln. The economies of scale are not in US's favor

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@at4466He’s talking about ICE vs EVs. ICE loses.

[@johnryan6003]

Average sale price of EV sold in USA 2023 = $50K Your team does not mention the low price BEV brands. Average BEV sold is almost exactly the same price as average ICE in the last quarter. Please keep up.

[@electrictroy2010]

@johnryan6003 LOL okay. The cheapest BEV in America is Model 3 for over $40,000. I can get a Civic or Corolla ICE about $19,000 .

[@DaveSoCal]

Yes , there is a political stripe to EV’s I’ve experienced several family members anti EV

[@gregkramer5588]

It was hard to believe he was not aware of this.

[@DaveSoCal]

@@gregkramer5588it’s too “woke” for them I gather 😢

[@gregkramer5588]

I think it is the same for the most part that think Al Gore was full of BS mixed with people that hate new things :-) @@DaveSoCal

[@DaveSoCal]

@@gregkramer5588 Al who ?

[@DaveSoCal]

@@gregkramer5588 the republicans are pushing back on climate change. Reports every day on Foxnews puts that in a lot of people’s minds. That’s my experience

[@Berretotube]

Hybrids were a good stepping stone. EVs are the next stone or two along. The EV transition is happening at light speed - the rise is exponential, unstoppable & awesome 🏆

[@kitgerhart8749]

Without home charging, EVs don't work.

[@klasseact6663]

​@@kitgerhart8749...and infrastructure AND prices AND....AND....so let's slow down on the back slapping and victory laps🙄🙄🙄

[@johnryan6003]

Except on this KZbin channel Compare Cyber truck beast to HUMMER EV. Same-ish price. Cyber truck is fast, can tow more, has a bigger bed, does bidirectional charging. Steer by wire, 48 volt, better assisted driving software Model S cost less that the European luxury model, is faster

[@christopherhale580]

Agreed. Hybrids were a good stepping stone 5 years ago. EV time is now.

[@brunoheggli2888]

Pluginhybrids for now and evs maybe in 5 years in the developed countrys!In emergin markets like Indonesia pluginhybrids will be the best solution for way longer!

[@chipspaulding1371]

Jack is wrong on many levels EV's are not only for the rich. I am not rich, middle class, and have owned nothing but EV's since 2018. Putting 25K on my 2018 M3, living here in the Northeast (cold climate). I did it on less maintenance and much lower cost of energy (electrons) In short, overall lower cost of ownership. Now I have an M3 and a 2023 MY and with the help of IRA money and lower cost of ownership, it is the best, cheapest way to go.

[@billybobbob3003]

exploding vehicles are not lower cost, they chew through tires and that's the more expensive vehicle repair usually also DC faster charging cost as much or more expensive than gas and typically insurance cost more for ev's and the starting price even for used vehicles ev is more expensive. EV=EWASTE/ELECTRONIC WASTE

[@bobbammerlin6757]

My experience is similar. I have had a Leaf, Bolt, and currently a Model Y. The only complaints I have a short legs on the Leaf and slow quick charging on the Bolt. But ALL of those cars ran dirt cheap. I'll never go back to a ICE or hybred (also owned a Prius, in another life).

[@kitgerhart8749]

I agree, for local driving, if you have home charging. For those of us without home charging, forget EVs.

[@ultrastoat3298]

Jack is the exact same brain archetype that got the legacy autos in trouble. Oh well.

[@billybobbob3003]

@@ultrastoat3298 ev's are the past not the future they are older technology than internal combustion.

[@BryceLovesTech]

I have owned six different hybrids, including a Honda CRZ a Chevy volt Toyota Prius. It is a steppingstone to what I now own, which is a Tesla with 167,000 miles and has been flawless. Electric cars are just simpler. Hybrids are very complicated.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Priuses, Camry hybrids, etc. are much simpler, mechanically, than ICE vehicles. There are no clutches, and just single speed gearing. Yeah, they are complex electrically, but are reliable anyway. Yeah, BEVs are more simple.

[@chipspaulding1371]

Geez Jack! It;s EASY to have the EV be the primary car.

[@TeslaDo_d]

Jack is clueless. If you have a garage or other method to charge overnight, you will soon have nothing but EV's in your home. After purchasing my 2020 Model Y, it didn't take long to see how the math works....all ICE disappeared from my driveway in 2 more years.

[@chipspaulding1371]

@@TeslaDo_d Exactly! But it is so difficult to get these facts out to the broader audience

[@kitgerhart8749]

It's easy to have an EV as a primary car, if you have home charging and don't take long road trips.

[@TeslaDo_d]

@@kitgerhart8749 If you take long road trips, then you need a Tesla. I have not been denied any destination or inconvenienced in any significant way with my Tesla.

[@bobbammerlin6757]

I have had my Model Y on road trips from Portland, OR to Atlanta and the eastern seaboard 3 times since June 2020, with a repeat coming 2024. If I had problems, I wouldn't do it!

[@kbmblizz1940]

We're in transition, whatever works for YOU is the right answer. I'm in Calif, I now own a house with easy garage charge, also Solar PV, but I'm not the 90% of the 🌎 struggling to feed my family. I own a Tesla & a PHEV (125 mpge). My younger me will not buy BEV, when I lived in apartments, moved every 9 months. I didn't forget - that was me.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Exactly. I'm old, but in a condo with no charging, like you might have been in an apartment when younger. Without home charging, BEVs and PHEVs don't work.

[@sjbock]

I'll happily just keep driving my 1994 Volvo 850 I bought new 30 years ago. (And it came with heated seats.)

[@at4466]

your government may take it away from you

[@nexxusk]

What planet are you on? Which government is coming for your car?

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

This too shall pass…

[@paudieb]

Uh Oh! What If Hybrids Are The Answer???? to what??? certainly not tailpipe emission CO2 and air pollution. EV for the win. own one 3 years now. better to drive, little to maintain, low fuelling costs, can power my house, better traction. MG an BYD have affordable EVs in Europe. used market is good. But don't pretend tailpipe emissions are not important to fix. put a price on your health there lads.

[@2cartalkers]

Well said! 👍👍

[@kitgerhart8749]

Withouy home charging, EVs don't work well. Properly done hybrids, like Camry, Prius, RAV4 and Highlander use about half as much gas, so emit half as much in short trip/stop and go driving as similar size and performance non-hybrids.

[@Berretotube]

❤❤❤❤❤

[@cesartrujillo4190]

@@kitgerhart8749I’m not sure hybrids are that much better of an option for air quality with frequent cold starts to the engine. I think GM was willing to say they were going to bypass them in the US because they know this bandaid fix will face tougher scrutiny in populated areas. Yes, home charging is an issue for people who live in multi family dwellings, but the average American can charge enough for their daily drive with just a normal 110 outlet anywhere they can park overnight. A few street charging companies have already shown they can tap into existing lamp posts that have switched over to LED lights to use the excess capacity that used to be needed for higher power lamps of the past with very little investment.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Yep, even 120v charging would work for most of my driving, but I'd need to run an rxtension cord down from the 3rd floor and across a parking lot to do that. I hope things improve.

[@antoinepageau8336]

I drive a 2022 Tesla model 3 std range 50k miles per year and guess what, it is all rainbows and unicorns. RIP legacy automaker.

[@heathwirt8919]

Until you need replacement parts then the rainbow turns into a nightmare.

[@antoinepageau8336]

? There are so many Tesla's out there with several hundred thousand km's. How do you think they keep them going? Stop believing what the mainstream media is spewing. Talk to owners. There were issues with body shop repairs but my local Tesla garage also does body work.@@heathwirt8919

[@irvinwright4075]

Hybrids are definetly not the answer. Instead of talking about the purchase price, you should be talking about the total cost of ownership! Jack has no clue what is coming.

[@nick0126]

the only metric is Total Cost of Ownership. The fact that many consumers can do basic math will be the only drag on the transition

[@Custo911]

And it is almost never talked about. Even John almost never stresses that point a glancing mention is pointless.

[@rozonoemi9374]

Jack is in Lah Lah land. My Family has only 1 vehicle & it's a Tesla M3 LR RWD 2018 brand new & get us anywhere we want, including from Montreal to Florida no problem.

[@skipwoodson]

But after you've driven that ICE Sportage for one year, you've spent more money in GAS than what you would have paid for the BEV.

[@electrictroy2010]

Gas is more expensive than electricity, but the gasoline car is about HALF the initial pricetag as the EV

[@cesartrujillo4190]

Gary, Brazil and Argentina are part of Latin America. I know this was just an oversight. I can’t speak for other countries, but Brazilians are usually very interested in getting a product and making it run more affordably. You will probably see lots of home made solar canopies in Brazil or more V2H solutions to help power outages. Musk said you need something other than your vehicle to power your home because you lose power when you drive away. We already see Tesla PowerWall alternatives that should work with most EVs to boost power ability when you are home but small enough to solar charge during the day. France has mandated all large parking lots be covered by solar. These aren’t enough for fast charging but are great for trickle and slow charging. That’s great for work from office parked vehicles and even better for airport parking. There are already over night electricity rates that make charging EVs around $25 a month in extra electricity for the average driver and most people can make do just fine with level 1 or 2 charging. Much of Central and South America will eat up this type of charging. The US and maybe Australia are the only places that high speed fast charging is really needed because of our longer distance driving. John, I agree most people shouldn’t worry so much about miles left in your battery on a daily basis unless you have a tiny battery. People who have not lived with EVs would feel more comfortable with a longer distance battery but eventually real cost cutting will come with smaller batteries on more efficient vehicles. Once the market is larger, then vehicles can get smaller batteries. Big batteries are either a waste, a luxury, or insurance. Please address lack of battery failure insurance for the average person after base warranty. We hear from all experts that recycled batteries offer better longer life higher quality batteries. If the car manufacturers don’t think it’s a good business opportunity, maybe battery recycling companies will. I would gladly pay $25 a month to make sure if my battery fails, it can be replaced with a new, not remanufactured one. Range shouldn’t count, only battery failure. Battery health history is the next step in used EVs holding their value. Right now, a used EV can be a little bit of a crapshoot shoot to know if the vehicle will last.

[@kitgerhart8749]

You said "The US and maybe Australia are the only places that high speed fast charging is really needed because of our longer distance driving." What is low speed fast charging, or high speed slow charging? OK, I'm being picky. Anyway, what you say makes sense. It remains, though, that, at least in the US, BEVs make sense only for those with home charging, not available at my condo. So far, there is no good solution, and we are looking into options.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@kitgerhart8749Nearly every grocery store, shopping mall, strip shopping center, work parking lot, parking deck, movie theaters and other restaurants and businesses will have chargers. Already DO have them here and I am in the Deep Red South.

[@danielsmith6436]

EX30 will be built in Ghent Belgium. Pretty sure Belgium is westerns Europe. At the start of the show it was said we are still waiting for battery price to drop. Since 2010 prices have gone from $450 per kwh to $151 per kwh. I think Jake has made up his mind and not even checking to see if he knows what he's talking about.

[@jeffos8724]

Great show. John and Gary were really on their game. Found some guests that know how to do a video call without screwing it up …yay

[@legostud]

The EU has done research on PHEVs and found that the majority of buyers never plug them in. Better to by an ICE instead.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Or buy a non-plug-in hybrid that will use half as much gas in short trip/stop-and-go driving as an ICE.

[@edwarddejong8025]

We need more basic vehicles like the Ford Maverick. It is one of the only stripped down trucks, but sadly Ford raised the price around $5k since its introduction, moving it from a bargain to just a so-so deal.

[@kitgerhart8749]

The base Maverick hybrid is still a relative bargain, if you actually need a pickup truck, but they still can't build them fast enough.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@EnriqueThieleNope. There’s a recession coming and people are defaulting on their Vehicle Loans at higher and higher rates. The vehicles will HAVE to come down in price or the EV makers will eat them alive.

[@deepneasy]

Tell Mr. Nerad that Model Y today is priced at $36500 after the tax credit. How much is RAV4?

[@electrictroy2010]

$22,000

[@at4466]

John is getting more and more into magical thinking with every show on EVs.

[@JeepAndThings]

2021 4XE owner, recall sucks. no fix, just can't charge it or park inside. I've owned Wranglers for 30 years. As soon as this is fixed, selling it. So BEVs can be a real pain.

[@steveam29]

The stepping stone is Hybrid for sure. If 60% of new cars got 50 MPG VS 20% of the new cars are EV overall emissions would be less.

[@at4466]

The assessment of overall emissions should encompass the entire life cycle of battery production, from the exploration and mining of raw materials to the subsequent processing, distribution, and rehabilitation phases. It is crucial to consider emissions at every stage of the battery materials' journey, rather than focusing solely on the emissions associated with the operation of the final product, such as the car.

[@solararch2001]

To best avoid stranded investments in new factories, is a pure EV with an onboard gas powered generator the best solution? In this scenario, you build your new EV plant, attach a separate gas generator made elsewhere with its own little gas tank, and you’re good to go without range anxiety. Then, once the charging network gets built out, and battery technology improves, and the need for an onboard generator vanishes, in 4-5 years, you jettison the generator and you’ve got your pure EV and pure EV factory! This strikes me as the perfect bridge technology between ICE vehicles and pure EV’s. That’s how GM designed the original volt, and Stelantis is using this concept for a new truck. It’s a brilliant solution and I don’t understand why everyone hasn’t jumped on this bandwagon already (but I’m not familiar with the technical challenges this design presents.). You have a slightly higher cost for the generator and gas tank but if you can make your battery smaller in exchange, it might be net zero dollars. Build a battery that goes 200-250 miles and people who need longer range can use their onboard gas generator.

[@sailorbob74133]

If the move to EVs is unstoppable then get rid of the draconian regulations and taxpayer subsides and let the market work on it's own.

[@CharliewatII]

Is there any acknowledgement that OEM’s went from making half arse “Compliance” cars to half arse EVs. Also, would the idea be make hybrids until Tesla has a Standard Oil Monopoly on Charging, Manufacturing & Technology?

[@heathwirt8919]

That's from a tesla fanboy perspective and it's complete BS.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@heathwirt8919Baloney. Nearly EVERY automaker has signed up for the Tesla Supercharger Network in the US. It’s the BEST by far. 10 to 1 Ford starts having some EVs made in partnership with Tesla, just like they were the FIRST automaker to partner with Tesla on its charging stations.

[@heathwirt8919]

@@DavidC-pg6ni Everything you said is BS. You're an over the top Musk worshiper and fanboy. Pathetic.

[@hereigoagain5050]

Great panel. I hope the transition to EVs are good for customers and good for companies. Fun that Jack, who lives in LA, thinks nobody is anti-EV. He should visit the Midwest.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Or Florida

[@CarterEdison777]

They’re “anti-ev”, they just dont prefer them

[@normt430]

The multiple power source costs more to make compared to a single power source.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Yep, about $1500-2000 more more with Camry, Maverick, Highlander, and worth every penny.

[@normt430]

​@@kitgerhart8749 costs more to make too! Have you seen hybrid battery replacement costs?

[@wonderplanet343]

With insurance and high repair costs and battery replacement cost of OLDER EVs, is cost of ownership lower for EVs as they go 5 to 20 years old? Thanks if you can provide a link to research ❤

[@InternetDude]

EVs are basically disposable after 10 years. Too costly to replace the battery

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@InternetDudeNonsense. EV batteries last longer than 10 years. And they have aftermarket places that can fix or replace them.

[@scruffy4647]

The landscape has definitely changed. It wasn't too long ago all we talked about was who had the best engines and transmissions. On just the propulsion side, how many moving parts does an engine and transmission have, a lot. An EV has one and a gear reducer. No torque converter, no 10 speed transmission, no oil changes. Just flat out instant torque all the way up to speed. Yea, the infrastructure is not ready for EVs, so we're muddying things up with plug in hybrids.

[@williambasinger5859]

How much of the corn grown in this country goes to ethanol production for ice vehicles?

[@kitgerhart8749]

40%, according to USDA.

[@davidheinzmann4403]

Not a single item has broken in my 2014 Prius. Changed brake pads at 110k miles. Half as many filter/ oil changes, 50mpg. Bought a Prius prime. Plug in every night fill up every 2months !

[@sethemerson885]

Maybe the price of gas in California is the driver for higher BEV sales there?

[@117Warbird]

Hybrids, you have got to be kidding me?! This show is so entertaining. It so consistently gets the EV market wrong. They are ancient ICE gear heads living in the past.

[@ultrastoat3298]

It sounds like this entire conversation happened as if Tesla didn't exist.

[@jurgenwehner3607]

How would people struggling to make the payments even buy a new vehicle? - used instead, could be an EV as well.

[@randyhyland847]

On new form factors it would be interesting if the Tesla model 2 had Cyber styling

[@amosbatto3051]

In Sept 2023, EVs (BEVs + PHEVs) were the following percent of new vehicle sales: 35% in China, 25% in Europe and 25% in California. If US follows the example of China and Europe, EVs will easily be 50% of new vehicle sales by 2030 in the US, and I suspect we will get there in 2027 or 2028. What Jack Nerad doesn't understand is that BEVs will be cheaper than ICE vehicles by 2030 due to dropping battery prices, gigacasting, consolidation into fewer chips and custom boards, 48V components, conversion from point to point wiring to high speed data buses, factory automation, etc. Jack Nerad is frankly blind about where the auto market is going, because BEVs are going to take off once they have a lower selling price than ICE vehicles. Hybrids are more expensive, because it needs both an ICE motor and electric motor+battery, so I don't know how it can compete after 2030 when BEVs are cheaper. Hybrids are a transition technology, and they only really make sense long term in areas that won't have good charging networks, but I think that most of the developing world will build the charging networks because their governments don't want to keep paying for gasoline/diesel imports. Battery swapping makes no sense now that CATL is offering its Qilin batteries that can charge 80% in 10 minutes. With CCS and Supercharger V4 offering 350 KW charging, 10 minute charging becomes feasible. I don't know what Nerad is talking about China having battery formulas which aren't allowed in the US.

[@datamatters8]

And as the charging infrastructure improves over the next 5 years combined with the uber convenience of home charging along with lower cost of electricity vs. gas won't consumers be less inclined to buy a PHEV as their resale value erodes?

[@kitgerhart8749]

BEVs do not work for the many millions of us without home charging. Hybrids are a great alternative, using half as much gas as pure ICErs in short trip/stop-and-go driving. Maybe some day, apartments and condos will have home charging at utility rates, but so far, not even close.

[@marsspacex6065]

By going hybrid legacy companies are giving more time for Ev companies to increase their lead and put them out of business.

[@unclezeppy]

My favorite BYD sales guy, who is now working at their Shenzhen headquarters, showed me some details of the production cost of their 11000 USD Seagull model. It's shocking how simple the car is and how few parts it has. BYD has an 8-in-1 motor concept and the next generation is even more compact and cheaper. The batteries are also getting cheaper (sodium). What will happen when the EVs are so cheap everybody can afford them, the World's biggest traffic jam? Do these companies keep the prices up and make 50% profit or the cars will be taxed so much that the situation doesn't change. One thing is for sure, China will convert to EVs much faster than is predicted. But, the hybrids are starting to scare people, the used ones would normally end up in the 2nd and 3rd tier cities but it turns out they are quite expensive to fix. People are starting to buy the cheap Chinese EVs instead and now the used hybrids have nowhere to go. I thought the hybrids made a lot of sense, but the recharge infra is developing so fast that in the countryside it's many times easier to find a charger than a gas pump. You might need to take the hybrid to a bigger city for service but for the EV there is very little to service. Our BAIC got serviced on our parking lot and cost 25USD, it's so old it doesn't have the OTA function. Breaks, lights, suspension, etc. were checked.

[@spiritedgarage]

Hybrids are like cordless landline phones in the age of cellphones.

[@spiritedgarage]

@TruthOrDie777.com2 haha, gotta be a certain age to understand that reference 😆 But nobody is reading that comment from their cordless landline phone 🤣

[@InternetDude]

Hybrids are the immediate answer as infrastructure improves

[@klasseact6663]

They've always been the answer because it's the best of both worlds, not sure why ALL you media people didn't get onboard with this❗️ I guess it's true...common sense isn't common anymore🤔🙄

[@edwarddejong8025]

Chery has a few models already in Brasil, however, because they are imported you pay a huge import duty and their teeny EV is $30k. You have to build a plant in a Mercosul country to evade tariffs, and i do believe that Mexico is going to have a lot of chinese plants soon. FYI, powered roadways are a super dumb idea. the losses in inductive charging are huge, and make it infeasible. You can't afford to lose more than a few percent during the charging process. The electric grid is already stretched, inefficiency won't be tolerated.

[@nathanroberson]

Only a fool would “struggle” to make payments on a new car. There is plenty of cars I can buy with less than $10k in cash.

[@damham5689]

Then add insurance and if applicable add property tax cost, and that $700 average car payment goes up to closer to a $1000 a month. A used car even at $5 a gallon gas prices is a huge savings.

[@tonyjipechala88]

Spot on, John.

[@hansonrm]

Face it …hybrids are twice as many parts!

[@kitgerhart8749]

Not at all. Most Toyota hybrids, Maverick, and some others have a lot fewer parts. No clutches. No 8 or 10 gear sets. Nothing but a few gears and bearings in the drive train.

[@sot8343]

😂 who said the transition will go without a hitch? I thought the common consensus was that legacy OEMs were facing an existential threat and some will go bankrupt before it's all over.

[@snookmeister55]

Let's just say that some will go bankrupt before end of this decade. VW is just one automaker but when the CEO says their roof is on fire, it's serious. Legacy, for the most part, has already lost the largest market, China. Their troubles won't end there. Ford pulled out of Europe and loses billions per year. Toyota shipped cars back out of China to sell elsewhere. Draw your own conclusions about the trend.

[@heathwirt8919]

The OEM's will be around longer than both of us and they will build what the market wants be it EV's or ICE. Right now the market is 93% ICE.

[@snookmeister55]

@@heathwirt8919 In the USA, that's a correct number, for now. In the corporate world, losing a few percentage points of the market is a big deal. USA is about a third of the market and EV sales are double globally, compared to USA.

[@heathwirt8919]

@@snookmeister55 EV sales growth in the US averages about 1% per year for the last few years so it still has a long way to go. Don't expect the US companies to start mass producing until there is a sufficient market to sell to. Other markets will be addressed by their foreign operations and will likely follow the same production logic only with more EV's being produced for those markets. The lion's share of the market is still ICE and will be that way for quite a while until there is a migration to EV's.

[@snookmeister55]

@@heathwirt8919 Way wrong. EV sales up 50% 2021 to 2022. This year, probably less than that but more than your made up stat.

[@tommetzner58]

I'm 65 and hate low-slung cars. I need easy ingress and egress.

[@heathwirt8919]

Take yoga classes. :)

[@kitgerhart8749]

I'm 77 and like my low-slung Cayman.

[@anthonygray333]

Had a Q50S Hybrid that was awesome and we love our new Grand Cherokee Summit 4XE. Cut my gas cost by more than 50 percent and zero range anxiety.

[@hornprof46]

If you have a good EV you don't have ANY range anxiety

[@kaseyc5078]

Is Ultium just a failure at this point. Nothing concrete has come out of this

[@lesliecarter4295]

Replace the ICE fuel with hydrogen or hydrogen based e-fuels and the argument goes in favour of hybrids. Going to be interesting to watch this play out.

[@lesliecarter4295]

@EnriqueThiele2 years ago you would have been correct. Today you really need to do some serious research. Watch the space especially after COP 28.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

All the affordable hydrogen sources that I am aware of, according to recent industry experts, effective cause more pollution and/or environmental damage than normal petroleum.

[@kitgerhart8749]

@@johnpublicprofile6261 Yep, most commercially produced hydrogen is from "taking apart" natural gas, mostly methane.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

@@lesliecarter4295Hydrogen is STILL an expensive and explosive disaster that will never work for passenger vehicles.

[@lesliecarter4295]

@@DavidC-pg6ni 🤡

[@chipspaulding1371]

{sigh} Thank heaves John is on the show.

[@kitgerhart8749]

What are heaves?

[@famnaff5136]

Someone please tell Jack when you can see it, it will be too late too late to stop it. He seems to prefer conseeding the future of auto to China.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

And Tesla..

[@jurgenwehner3607]

The experts have no clue.

[@nathanroberson]

The Volt is an old tech car. No “over the air” no castings, no nothin but old old tech. GM is over 10 yr behind. Doooomed. Sad…because I’m from Lansing. Worked in the Plant #1 tool room.

[@heathwirt8919]

The entire Tesla line up is old cars.

[@InternetDude]

Castings mean nothing to buyers though

[@InternetDude]

@@heathwirt8919LOL true

[@nathanroberson]

Castings translate to many things buyers care about. Safer better made cars, that last longer, for less money, with less parts, that are more reliable win in the end @@InternetDude

[@InternetDude]

LOL you don't understand the average buyer doesn't care one tiny bit about a casting, in fact castings don't make cars safer (not proven), and it is less parts but much harder to repair, so insurance costs will skyrocket @@nathanroberson

[@donswier]

Range Extenders & PHEVs👍 - Still easily provide 90% of miles for most people on cheap home power - No need for billion$ of public charging to cover every eventuality - Refill anywhere in 2 minutes on road trips - Never hostage to public charging that's often ICED, occupied or broken. - Battery can be 1/3 the weight & cost of BEV - ICE generator can be light & simply tuned fot charging.

[@datamatters8]

But you still have to carry around a gas engine, a transmission, and exhaust system with their attendant maintenance. Battery costs will continue to decline as the tech gets better along with increased manufacturing volumes. The charging infrastructure continues to improve and next year Tesla chargers will be available to the other EV makes. At some point it makes less sense to buy PHEV as their resale values erode compared to BEV. PHEVs will be viewed as dinosaurs and oil prices will rise as OPEC works to maintain profits on lower volume.

[@donswier]

@@datamatters8 Depends: My range extended EV has no transmission. The entire engine, exhaust, & gas tank weighs less than 290 lbs. (less than most 4wd systems on cars that often *never* gets used). The ICE onboard keeps me from *ever* being hostage to sketchy public charging ...a huge relief. We drove 24,000 miles last year on 25 gallons of gas. YMMV literally 😄

[@datamatters8]

​@@donswier Interesting idea...one could buy a 10KW portable generator and put it in the back of the truck with a few Jerry Cans of gas and recharge the truck with a 240V outlet over 9 hrs or so (20 to 80%). A lot cheaper than 16K for the range extender on the occasions when charging is not accessible. And it's not permanently attached to the bed. Is this the sort of arrangement you are talking about?

[@donswier]

@@datamatters8 It seems like the sweet spot is an onboard generator with a peak output at 25% of the electric drive. Example: if the drive motor is 500kW, a 125kW generator should work, with the batteries acting as a buffer. Pretty sure the new Ramcharger pickup will follow a similar ratio. One of the best qualities: if batteries degrade over the years, you won't notice other than ICE generator kicking on sooner during long trips beyond the EV range.

[@kitgerhart8749]

i3 REx, I assume?@@donswier

[@robertpulliam9973]

Y’all need to watch the video from pickups trucks and SUVs about the lady who was driving the EV from her home in Chicago to her parents in Indianapolis. Not only didn’t the luxury EV meet range expectations but stopping to recharge was also a nightmare due to lack of infrastructure, rechargers inoperable, and long lines awaiting chargers. She gave it a thumbs down. They’ll work in metropolitan areas but forget road trips.

[@damham5689]

Trusting the marketing EV range estimates is a mistake.

[@sot8343]

​​@@damham5689trusting a non Tesla and non Tesla charging was the mistake. Tesla has set the bar and no one else has met it yet. The other EVs are fine, but Teslas have the least compromises. Teslas may fall short in some aspects but they've invested where it matters most for EVs.

[@snookmeister55]

185 miles. The problem probably started with a poor purchase choice then poor trip planning followed. Maybe others will catch up to Tesla someday but planning your trip and having/using the software still helps. It's well known that Tesla has the only good charging network - if you don't believe it, just research it and you'll see. Starting the trip with full charge would have been smart.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

If only there was a massive network of fast and reliable chargers, perhaps one provided by a company that specializes in producing high quality EVs. Oh well, I guess we just have to burn gasoline forever.

[@hornprof46]

@@damham5689 I just drove 900 miles in one day in my Tesla. Charging is NEVER a problem in a Tesla

[@legostud]

Battery swap is dead. Let it be dead.

[@fjalics]

The ASP of a new vehicle is 48 grand. There are very good EVs below that. Are there enough good used EVs? No, but new comes first. There are some missing models, like mini vans, and we need stuff at a lower price point. It's coming, at least from Tesla, but it won't be this year. Maybe end of next year, maybe 2025. I sure hope Tesla doesn't wait till 2026.

[@SaadiHowell]

I think the biggest challenge with EVs is the charging infrastructure. People in cities don't have at home chargers, and outside of Tesla the networks are unreliable. Those two issues are major barriers to broad adoption

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

Nearly ALL EVs get access to Tesla Charging in 2024. The rest in 2025. Nearly ALL shopping Malls, grocery stores, parking decks and businesses with parking lots will have chargers. Done!

[@nickayivor8432]

Happy New Year

[@paulsasso3806]

We been 100% EV since 2018. Never looked back. Never will.

[@danward73]

This is going to be a different conversation when the Tesla $25K car comes out. Everyone will get one as a second car, use it, love it, discover the supercharger network (use it and love it) so when the time comes to replace the primary car they'll get a Model Y.

[@kitgerhart8749]

When/if the $25K Tesla comes out, it will be a good second car for those with home charging. For the rest of us, not really.

[@danward73]

@@kitgerhart8749 Agreed, home charging is awesome, but I don't have it and it's not that difficult a situation to work around. It might mean parking in a parking garage that has L2 chargers (what I do). It also means more businesses setting up L2 chargers in their parking lots, etc.. Not an impossible problem to work on the next few years...

[@TurdFergusen]

@@danward73parking meters are ubiquitous and can also include chargers

[@danward73]

@@TurdFergusen Indeed! A town outside Boston (can't remember name) put L2 chargers with long cables up on telephone polls. Very cheap, simple installation, close the power source, no digging up sidewalk or road, etc. There are lots of options; this isn't rocket science.

[@heathwirt8919]

@@kitgerhart8749 Home charging makes the conversion to EV practical, depending on charging stations and the prices they charge is a big negative.

[@jamesnichols5183]

Hybrids should have been the answer 15 years ago and phev 5-10 years ago. When bev technology could only give limited milage.

[@snookmeister55]

E Fiat is coming to USA again with increased range, 150 miles. What the heck are they thinking? Maybe it will sell. To top that off, Stellantis plans to battery swap the 500E in Europe, which I think is a money pit. Good luck.

[@dylanfgarrison]

Speaking of hybrids, I’ve wondered for quite a while… where are the Suburban and Expedition hybrids? Ford makes the f-150 hybrid that gets 24 mpg combined yet the expidition (6 cylinder) gets only 19 mpg combined. If they could get the Expidition up to 25+ they’d fly off the lots. Family’s rarely need to tow. Rather, they need to haul people and stuff and pay less per mile to do it.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Almost no one needs either huge pickup trucks or huge, trucky SUVs, but yeah, why don't they put that hybrid powertrain in Expedition? Not enough capacity to make them?

[@Harrythehun]

The biggest mistake is to think that only one technology can exist. Same issue is with electricity production, far too many argue about one best solution, only wind, only nuclear, only heat pumps, only batteries, only hydrogen, only oil or only gas. The world is fragmented and diverse.

[@heathwirt8919]

All these technologies can peacefully coexist both on the generating end and automotive end if people would stop listening to news agencies that are paid to push a specific agenda.

[@DavidC-pg6ni]

nope. The poison spewing Fossil Fuels controlled by Cartels need to GO! Wind, Solar, Hydro, Geothermal, etc. can ALL be used. Solar and Wind and Hydro are by far the Cheapest for most locations where large numbers of people live.

[@thomassherer8682]

Plug-in hybrids are being underestimated.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

By what criteria?

[@user-to2rf1rj5v]

6:54 Has this guy heard of the Model 3? It's $40k BEFORE the $7,500 federal credit (some states give an extra few grand, CO $5k). That makes it far cheaper to buy than the average cost of a new car sold in the US. Cheaper than a Camry. And that's BEFORE you consider total cost of ownership, making it even cheaper.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Model 3 is not cheaper than a Camry, even with the $7500, but a good option, if you have home charging, if you are ok with the horrible operator interface, and if you don't care about making good time on long highway trips.

[@nc3826]

Autoline is always asking the poignant questions... It's just a shame, that they ask it a couple decades too late....

[@cassidybb10]

Enjoyed the history lesson Gary.

[@MrTeff999]

Hybrids have all the potential failure points of both an ICE and an EV, plus the maintenance of an ICE.

[@kitgerhart8749]

They get twice the mpg in city driving, and instead of 8-10 gear sets and clutches of most ICEs, they have "nothing but gears" transmissions. Yes, they need oil changes.

[@bardigan1]

As of today, new, base, 2023 Chevy Volts are available on autotrader for $22k, or $14.5k after the rebate.

[@whlawson5812]

Each barrel of crude oil has 160 litres. Even if it is fully converted to gasoline it is only 40 US gallon. 40 US gallons is at best 40 gallon X 50 miles per gallon = 2000 miles for a running 1.8 ton hybrid?. One barrel of crude has about. 1600kwh of energy. Firing it in a modern cogen power plant could produce 800kwh of electricity. Assuming you get 750kwh get into an EV and x at 4 miles per kWh = 3000 EV miles per crude oil barrel. Yes, no? Keep an EV connected to a small smart bi-directional charger it could charge in daily at 30kwh during off peak. Then discharge 15 to 20kwh during peak hours to flatten the duck curve. 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@ultrastoat3298]

25:05 This is 100% correct

[@tommetzner58]

Besides just renting random batteries... do they stay put in a crash? Do the become susceptible to salt spray on the connections?

[@snookmeister55]

I'd say not all manufacturing is equal and some are better than others. Generally, just don't submerge your EV in salt water. There's a video of Cybertruck driving in the surf but I wouldn't do it.

[@tommetzner58]

A bespoke built in battery can be salt proof but I seriously question a swapable battery pack's ability to stay sealed at the contact points. @@snookmeister55

[@kitgerhart8749]

@@snookmeister55 If you drive in Indiana or Michigan in the winter, you are, essentially, submerging your car in salt water.

[@tommetzner58]

Sandy Munro said long ago... The Chinese are coming! He likely knows more than most!!

[@AuralioCabal]

Sandy, and Michael Dunn who did say so way back in 2013., interviewed by John McElroy here in Autoline Daily.

[@snookmeister55]

No longer a matter of being likely. The auto market is global and China is the largest single market. It's practically game over in China.

[@uludak8468]

chances to ignite for hybrids is more than twice as high as ice and more than 10 times high as BEV. my 2 cents

[@kitgerhart8749]

Huh??? WTF are you talking about?

[@July.4.1776]

I don’t what someone’s two year old battery in my phone much less in my vehicle.

[@wzDH106]

Any family with an adjacent driveway and/or garage can get by with all EVs. There's really little excuse to keep a gasser in a single family household. Charging one or two vehicles on 120V/20 amp garage outlets will be ample for many, charge the third on a 20 amp or 30 amp 240V circuit....alternate charging when necessary. This isn't rocket science, they're outlets.

[@2cartalkers]

No one wants 2, as in TWO, power plants, just double the trouble.

[@kitgerhart8749]

Not at all. Toyota hybrids are among the most reliable cars on the road.

[@thomassherer8682]

No plug in hybrids sitting around the new car lots. Plenty of BEVs, and a few hybrids. I am waiting for a PHEV in a class of vehicle I need.

[@donswier]

When done right (like Ramcharger or BMW i3 REx): - No transmisson (direct drive) - Much lighter, cheaper battery - Lightweight ICE tuned just for charging Best of all? ...they won't complicate your life trying to fit public charging time into your road trips.

[@kitgerhart8749]

But they are horribly inefficient, combining the energy loss of a motor and a generator. @@donswier

[@GeelongVic7140]

I have had a 2012 Chevy Volt bought new in Jan 2012 which has been remarkably reliable with no mechanical or electrical issues in my 11 yr, nearly 12 yr ownership, except for brake disc replacements due to road salt related corrosion. The Volt has driven mostly on EV battery power, battery recharged nightly in my garage, with my lifetime Volt average of 116mpg, with the ability to do long range gasoline powered interstate drives. So your supposition of "double the trouble" has been definitely proven to be incorrect by my 2012 Volt. GM unfortunately abandoned the plug-in serial hybrid/BEV technology of the Volt which should have been further developed with a third generation model. C'est la vie, but too typical of GM's inability to see and develop workable technologies.

[@bethmcguinn8606]

$50 extra payment per month? You afford that by applying the $ you don't spend in gas and oil changes!

[@williamelkington5430]

Wow! Jack is saying that there is nobody against BEVs. He can't be more wrong. And what's up with his capacity comment? Doesn't capacity entail parts? I never understood capacity to be restricted to the size of an assembly facility. John, you are of course right. There is a tidal wave of new technology that will be flooding the automotive market over the next few years. The consequences will be discovered along the way. And you are also right: National security is a major driver of battery technology.

[@TurdFergusen]

Marketing (brainwashing) works!

[@robertpulliam9973]

How many Chinese executives make $27,000,000 salary plus stock options?

[@jameshoffman552]

6:30 Michael Robinet seems to be unaware of the Model Y.

[@rozonoemi9374]

Battery Swapping is not working in the largest EV market, which is China. What makes you think it would work for Stelantis?

[@sebastianmessina31]

On EV range, you should be charging at 20% and you shouldn’t charge over 80% so your real range is 60% of claimed range. It is a bit the same for ICE vehicles but there are more fill up points for ICE vehicles so the fix is more charge points for EVs. How about mandating electric charge points at service stations on a pro-rata basis based on number of petrol/diesel bowsers.

[@Mojo16011973]

2 powertrains equals less profit margins. Not the answer.

[@snookmeister55]

Hybrids - Poor range on the battery and generally only used at low speed. Poor power with the ICE and you still have all the ICE maintenance. If you can live with that, the efficiency is much better than pure ICE. I wouldn't buy one but many do.

[@tommetzner58]

Frunks are for crush!

[@ronaldlenz5745]

Jack, for crumb sake, put pencil to paper and look at TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP!

[@imwteach]

Pretty disappointing John! Claiming Tesla is loosing market share to newcomers is idiotic. The ones loosing market share are any ICE manufacturer. Every BEV sold is a lost ICE vehicle sale. Tesla is GAINING 10,000 Cybertruck orders per day!

[@skipwoodson]

When all the local gas stations start closing, you'll see a mass excelleration to EVs

[@heathwirt8919]

In about 40 years.

[@williambasinger5859]

Hybrids are like wearing your right shoe on your left foot. It works just not very well. It doesn’t do the job of either ICE or BEV, it just goes down the road not very well

[@kitgerhart8749]

You are clueless and have never had a hybrid. Hybrids work extremely well. You just put gas in it and drive, and get about twice the mpg of a similar non-hybrid in mixed driving. My current one is a Toyota Highlander.

[@williambasinger5859]

@@kitgerhart8749 I’m not clueless as you state. No ne make a perfect car. All manufacturers have their own problems and issues. I have over forty years of experience working on vehicles as a service technician. I have worked on ICE Hybrid and BEV vehicles. If you Ice engine or transmission fails it will cost you several thousand dollars to repair or replace. Hybrids get the best of both worlds they are overly complicated where you can have a failure of both the engin and the battery. How many hybrids do you think go to the scrap yard when the battery fails? Most of the time the replacement cost of the hybrid battery will cost more than the vehicle is worth. So off to the scrap yard they go by the hundreds. BEV is more than enough vehicle for 80% of most peoples daily driving needs. The only thing holding them back is the cost, and where do you charge it if you don’t live in the suburbs with your own driveway? I believe the price of a BEV will come down in time. The where do I charge it issue will be solved. Now since you think I’m clueless, let me ask you if you have ever spent any time with your backside in a BEV. Once you do you will come to realize that a hybrid is a over complicated pile of crap.

[@robertpulliam9973]

Because of scary Mary’s decisions about EVs GM lost my business last year. As a GM retiree I’m eligible for substantial discounts on new GM vehicles, this last summer we needed to get rid of our gas hog pickup due to bidens war on fossil fuel. I went looking for an economical sedan, GM only makes 1, the Chevy Malibu, I wanted a hybrid for the best mileage I could get. Nothing was available from GM, I had to go to Toyota, a Camry that gets 52mpg in town and 47.8 mpg on the interstate at 75 mph.

[@kitgerhart8749]

The Malibu hybrid, last in, I think, 2019 did pretty well, but not like the Camry hybrid.

[@jamessvetlovics4948]

What do you think it cost to ship car to/from china