What is justification by faith? Should we speak in tongues? 🤔 Ask NT Wright Anything

[@andrewh35]

Best podcast ever.

[@Tomczon]

Great conversation! I origin from a slightly different theological camp, but your conversations with Tom are always stimulating my thinking in many areas.

[@duncescotus2342]

Praise God. Tears of joy that there is an N T Wright among us.

[@fzwpiay]

Romans 5:12, which reads: “By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, for in him all men sinned.” Augustine repeatedly referred to this verse and thought it plain and unambiguous. The problem is that the Latin translation renders the Greek phrase eph’ ho as “in him”, which is an impossible rendering. Sanday and Headlam, one of the great modern textual authorities on Romans, wrote: “Though this expression (eph’ ho) has been much fought over, there can now be little doubt that the true rendering is “because.” ”Thus “death spread to all men, because all sinned”.

[@juanpablotique]

Justification is a multifaceted blessing, some present, some furniture.

[@boatrat]

Oof. That opening remark about the cultural definitions of theological words that have been "cut loose" from their original context in the Bible. Then people start with their isolated notional re-definition, and work backward, imposing that idea over the Biblical text which originally meant something drastically different from their misinformed construct. Yikes. YES. This is exactly how we get stuck with these intractable historical denominational disagreements, with (at least one, or sometimes both) sides simplistically relying on badly-twisted proof-texts, while calling each other heretics. I'm gonna refrain from "naming names" here. But it is exactly this issue, that makes Bishop Wright seem to me so much more credible, than some of his vitriolic critics.

[@jaggedstarrPI]

You, are correct, sir! 😁👍💯

[@ByDesign333]

Agreed! If we would "speak as an oracle of God", we must do more diligently in our quest for clarity and untainted interpretation; for the only effect of man's adamic influence, takes us away from divine will and intent. "STRIVE to enter in, for that's what it takes, warned Christ.

[@Rbl7132]

Want to know about justification? Hear " Justification from eternity." By bill mcdaniel. And then there is another 2 sermons by jim casey On the same glorious doctrine.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Paul and the rest of the early church had a strong sense of the difference between what is possible in this age and the perfection of the age to come. They understood the temptation to seek power in this age, which could become a terribly corrupting force. On the other hand, they also understood Jesus' command to be light and salt to others, through good works, that others might give glory to our Father in heaven. Every generation of the church community must walk that tightrope.

[@bobloblaw4102]

The early church and Paul had a “strong sense?” Really? They seemed to be in conflict quite a bit. And considering Paul never met Jesus I’m more convinced the story was made up or massaged to make it what he needed it to be.

[@stephenbailey9969]

@@bobloblaw4102 The main discussion in the earliest documents of the church was over exactly what was required of the Gentiles. As all the disciples who followed Jesus had been Jews and had previous ideas on how Gentiles should accept Torah, that a new understanding had to be forged is understandable. But they all were informed by the good news of the resurrected Messiah, who was in fact the revelation of Israel's Creator/God. That is there from day one, in both word and practice. As they went forth to take that transcendent reality to the world, they taught respect for established authority, avoiding direct political critique, rejecting rebellion. While at the same time, their teachings were entirely counter-cultural to all the power practices of this age, both then and now.

[@case.johnson]

7:09 - “That ain’t necessarily so”-a great sound bite 😊

[@Jonathan-si2nd]

Wright offers a strange and novel definition of justification in its peculiar narrowness. After all, Abraham wasn't in Galatia or Rome nor was he justified as a Jew nor Gentile in a reconciliatory community with others. Clearly, he was justified in no other way than through his living faith in God that came entirely by grace. Moreover, we find the same to be true of all saints prior to the New Testament era. Then, it was applied partially as Wright explains, but also with the whole of salvation history in view. But let's hear from the earliest Roman church leader known outside the New Testament.... Clement of Rome: “Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. ANF: Vol. I, The Apostolic Fathers, First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 32.

[@juanpablotique]

Remarkable, though it's still possible these fathers might be misunderstanding the apostolic writings.

[@DustinHarrisWHBC]

The ability some have to misunderstand and misdescribe Wright’s viewpoint astonishes me….you think what you just said accurately describes what Wright is saying? That he would stumble over Abraham because he “wasn’t in Galatia or justified as a Jew”? 🤦‍♂️

[@mr.c2485]

Should one believe first or should they get three degrees, fill up a nice library, join the debate club, abandon reason and logic, disprove all other belief systems, etc. etc,…..first?

[@mjh277]

The path is narrow

[@tedclemens4093]

Would be helpful to compare justification by faith with the usual justification by law.

[@SeanusAurelius]

But then you'd battle to get Wright's NPP as soon as you look into the details.

[@tedclemens4093]

@@SeanusAurelius What's "NPP?"

[@bradbrown2168]

Justified by pistis. Justified by loyal allegiance?

[@tedclemens4093]

Try putting "pistis" in context to the Garden incident. Consider faith and judgment (of good and evil) to be at odds. For example, after making everything, God called all of his creation, "very good." (Genesis 1:31). But after eating the fruit, Adam and his wife had a different opinion (Gen. 3:7). Such evaluation-or judgment-is the product of eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Being able to decide what is good and what is evil, the two became (perhaps unwittingly) gods unto themselves! (Gen. 3:22) With faith, God is the judge of good and evil (see also 1 Peter 2:23).

[@debasishnayak5811]

Amen❤

[@PeterParker-gt3xl]

Faith (Pistis) in the "invisible" God encompasses the entire cognitive/intellectual acknowledge of the truth by a firm personal submissive surrender/conviction with dynamic/ continuous conduct "until death". While Grace (Charis) is a free gift from the Father (2 cor. 1:12) and Christ (Gal.1:6). those that choose not to accept this great gift or those that accepted but "backslide", fall away, forsake or defect (Apostasia) will be disinherited. Gentiles grafted to the olive tree as xenograft are Abraham's adopted heirs while "remnants" of the Israelites grafted to its native branch, if both bare no fruit shamed the Holy Spirit will only be good for fire.

[@slipperybillmantishandsgay3890]

Right on brother

[@brendaevans1378]

I believe that so many people don't seem to understand tongues but the purpose of tongues was to speak to people in their own languages say for instance I speak English only but if I needed to speak to someone that speaks only German or whatever I would be able to communicate with them! Read Acts.

[@michaelwhitworth8214]

Respectfully, Acts chapter two demonstrates that speaking in other tongues (languages) as the Spirit gives the utterance is the definitive sign of receiving the gift/baptism (Acts 1:4, 2:38) of the Holy Spirit. Peter teaches as much when he says that "This" (Referring to Acts 2:4-7) is "That" which was spoken by the Prophet Joel referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.* Consider also: John 3:8 KJV - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (See also John 3:3-5) This seems to further be the case as Peter stood up with the eleven and preached the Gosepl to the people in one language common to them all (Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic.) *Joel 2:28-29 KJV - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Happy to answer any questions I can. Baptism of the Holy Ghost, Infilling of the Holy Ghost, and Outpouring of the Holy Ghost are interchangeably phrases all referring to the Promise of the Father i.e. "The Holy Spirit". John 7:37-39 KJV - In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Luke 24:46-49 KJV - And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Acts 1:4-5 KJV - And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 10:44-48 KJV - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 11:15-18 KJV - And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

[@juboy04]

You obviously haven’t read Acts well or 1st Corinthians.

[@be_real_truth_matters]

Tongues were a sign for unbelieving Israelites...

[@dalewier9735]

​@@be_real_truth_matters1 cor 14:22 you added YOUR interpretation, Israel in not in the verse. Can you give a verse that specifically teaches what you have posted

[@rodneyaustin3999]

I'm confused by the election answer. :(

[@Arvak777]

Check out Mike Heiser's explanation on election, it's very similar. He says election is more about service and availability of the oracles of God. You still need to be saved. The exile to Babylon still happened even though Israel was "elect" they still need to believe. From what Ive read from personal study, the difficult "predestination" passages are leading up to Romans 11, especially Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you Which is odd because these are believers that are supposed to be "elect/saved" in the calvanism sense And Romans 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers Which is also odd because this is hardened Israel that doesn't believe

[@rdrift1879]

Because it is confusing. Mr. Wright always claims to see the real meaning of Scripture in spite of hundreds of years of careful theological work. He always knows better, and it is always uniquely his. Often, unfortunately, it is gobbledygook.

[@DustinHarrisWHBC]

@@rdrift1879how is this confusing? Election in Christ, for a purpose/role. Corporate election and election to service. God has chosen a people to bring “not my people” into “my people”.

[@brentwoodhornclub4092]

A master of obfuscation, and a heretic.

[@jcnone]

I looked up Matthew 5 22 in the Wright bible and realized it's just another zondervan niv with better english. N.T. leaves out "without a cause" from the text , which with out those 3 words makes Jesus a sinner,and therefore not God or Savior. Twice Jesus was angry , but with a cause. Anything and everything Jesus said about you and I , first applied to Him.

[@drmanojkumarkhatore4476]

There's no justice in the church. I wanted to serve God faithfully. They destroyed my life. They exalted my enemies who did only evil. Why trust that God will set anything right if he cannot set things right within his body? 😢 I cried and prayed, but no one heard. I hope 4-5 years of unanswered prayer is enough for a person to understand that the God of Christian people will not help him. Thank you, Jesus for everlasting difficulties.

[@meteor1237]

Always strikes me that these religious folks “know” the mind of a Being they believe is so magnificent and overwhelming. And don’t tell me Paul explained it in 7 essays written 2000 years ago after a vision. Why not visions by Joseph Smith or Mohamed? Because you weren’t raised in those tradition. And why is it so complicated? And why thousands of Christianity religions? They can’t get it correct. One man’s opinion only.

[@calebmitchell7171]

All great and difficult questions, you’ll find a lot of resources online that address these questions if you really want to; but ultimately, every Christian you encounter has a relationship with God that is the driving force of their belief. It’s true that there are many complexities in scripture that are constantly in debate and often misunderstood because they were written thousands of years ago to a different audience. We believe the Bible is the inspired word of God written by humans - it is all useful for instruction but our faith is in God, not religious dogma. I understand your reservations, I’ve had/have them too but I have also experienced God at work in my life, and I can’t explain it away, such is my belief in God.

[@THEZAYED58]

Intresting claims now Provide the evidence to backup your claims. Providing faith is like going in circles of claims without any external demonstrable justification and verification which is oxymoronic!

[@Christo-Cola]

He provided reference verses. Did you research them and contemplate what he said? Maybe research him and find one of his many books that he wrote and read them?

[@SeanusAurelius]

Wright and his New Perspective ignore the great practical question of, "Are my sins forgiven? How are my sins forgiven?" and reduces it down to just covenantal membership. By all means, argue that the familial and covenantal aspects of justification were neglected by the Reformers / in Protestantism, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's doing huge damage. And TBH, if you must pick one aspect then the one the Reformers would choose is better than that which Wright would choose.

[@charlespackwood2055]

You are IN CHRIST if you are IN HIM, and the Bible says you are NOT IN HIM when you are sinning. You must abide IN HIM in order to be IN HIM.

[@urasam2]

What the heck does “you are in Christ” mean???

[@1azalamb]

would be nice to know what you define as sin

[@urasam2]

@@1azalamb Was that a question for me?

[@urasam2]

@@1azalambIf that question was directed at me then my answer is that I consider sin to be a made up concept, the imagined transgressions against the wishes of an imagined deity. Debating about sin is as pointless as debating about which are the most effective Hogwarts spells

[@ndrudyjr]

Where does it say in Scripture that if you are sinning, we are NOT in Him? The Corinthian Church was very immoral (perhaps wicked), and yet Paul never mentions or seems to consider that they are not in Christ? It’s a given for Paul.

[@urasam2]

Whenever apologists start waffling on about what Paul said about anything, I can’t help but wonder.. supposedly God/Jesus has a really vital massage, but instead of communicating it unequivocally while Jesus is alive, they wait till he’s dead and instead communicate the message via a handful of letters some guy writes to various groups of followers, some of which get preserved and many don’t. These are then copied and translated multiple times and subject to violently different interpretations over thousands of years. Like .. WT holy F

[@Tyler_W]

I hope you didn't forget to watch your weekly viewing of Zeitgeist...

[@Iwasneverhere7]

“Forgive the complexity…”!” I’m about to disagree with the entire Protestant reformation and your biblical understanding of justification by faith, the historic Christian creeds, and the apostle Paul. No thank you Sir.

[@jac2565]

N. T. Wright? N. T. Wrong, more like. Better still: N. o. T Wright.

[@WackyConundrum]

"Justification by faith" - what an oxymoron that is!

[@mr.c2485]

Indeed! 😮

[@soteriology400]

”Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭2‬

[@jaggedstarrPI]

I'm sorry; how is that oxymoronic?

[@bobtaylor170]

​@@jaggedstarrPI Because he's a Catholic dork who has been programmed by the Baltimore catechism.

[@bobtaylor170]

​@@soteriology400hey, brother, you're trying to impress a Catholic with what the Word actually teaches. They're more impressed with lore than with the Bible.

[@OmegaOfApostasy]

He makes Romans more complicated than it really is. He makes Galatians about some token homey idea of wanting to belong to community.

[@justinrehm268]

Agree. He makes me nervous that he seems to fumble around a bit when asked the question about how he would lead someone to Christ. He says we need to “complexify it”.

[@Christo-Cola]

Galatians was Paul’s first epistle. Romans was one of his last. We all build ideas upon other ones. But you cannot forget the context of understanding what someone means through what they have said previously.

[@mjh277]

@@justinrehm268he’s saying we’ve oversimplified it and need to get back to a middle ground

[@SophieHamilton-d3e]

Interesting that NT Wright brought up the matter of head coverings for women. Women SHOULD cover their heads when praying and prophesying. I think this is a command that is going to be discussed more and more as many have been avoiding addressing this because it’s going to create a storm. Headcoverings are seen by many Christians in the West as just a Muslim practice and therefore to be resisted. I speak as a Christian woman who wears a headcovering and who has only experienced hostility to this from - ironically enough- Christian men.

[@garethflook5706]

"It's going to create a storm" - Im not sure what reality you live in but let me tell you Honestly, literally no one gives a shit about this.

[@ByDesign333]

The biggest storm brewing, seems to be about really just what "the Church" is in its visible, organized form, ... in this time of authority breakdown. The True Church as presented in Scripture, has an authority to be practiced by them "that have the rule over you.", but not in any hierarchical construct, per se, like the papist kind.

[@mjh277]

@@garethflook5706they would if their churches pressured them to cover their hair. Not that I think that is what the Bible is actually telling women to do

[@epicofatrahasis3775]

*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.*** *Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.*** ***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service. *"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"* *"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"* *"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"* ("The Sumerians were the people of southern Mesopotamia whose civilization flourished between c. 4100-1750 BCE." "Ancient Israelites and their origins date back to 1800-1200 BCE.") *"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"* Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:50 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes. From a Biblical scholar: "Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."* *"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"* ------------------------------------------------------------------ In addition, look up the below articles. *"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"* *"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"* *"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"* (Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief) *"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"* *"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From? *"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"* Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica (Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years) *"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"* *"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"* *"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"* *"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"* *"The Atrahasis Epic: The Great Flood & the Meaning of Suffering - World History Encyclopedia"* Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"* (8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science) *"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"* *"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"* *"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"* *"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"* *"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"* *"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei (This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies) *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei

[@stevenbeck5746]

NO, God has not chosen anyone to believe in Him, He has chosen us for SERVICE. So God thinks you would make a good pastor that is your election. Why are humans so thick sometimes.

[@tongleekwan1324]

Bullshit, a waste of time

[@bobtaylor170]

1Corinthians 2:14. You're a lost soul. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God. My suggestion is that you read The Gospel of John.