Tom Holland: Christianity, persecution and the meaning of the cross

Historian Tom Holland tells how his experiences among persecuted Christians and Yazidis in Iraq impacted his own intellectual and personal journey with Christianity.
Titled 'Invisible Fire: Christianity in a post-western world', this 'Perspectives' lecture was recorded in Nov 2021 at the British Library for Christian persecution charity Open Doors with audience Q&A. Used with permission. www.opendoorsu...
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[@noddfachurch4968]

Superb! Thank you! Be bold! Five years ago we were half a dozen elderly members in the Welsh Valleys. Now 150+ congregation. Biggest growth demographic- men under 40! 60+ adult baptisms. There is power in the Gospel! Embrace it! Live by it!

[@duncescotus2342]

Another Welsh revival, this time for good!! And for reason!!

[@jsp3366]

Marvellous in our eyes! Where can we learn more about how God guided you to achieve this?

[@yakovmatityahu]

I am from India here the hindu groups for the first time called for banning Christmas saying that if christian dont celebrated hindu festival then why hindus are celebrating christian festivals...they are destroying churches and killing pastors and persecuting christian...we are going through a dark period...but still darker times may he ahead...pray for us.

[@emmanuel8310]

Amen.

[@emmanuel8310]

May God help you dear brother! He's with you.

[@godislove8038]

I am praying for you all brother. May the Lord God cover and protect you. May His wings overshadow you and keep you from all harm. May our Heavenly Father be glorified even in the midst of persecution at the hands of unbelievers. May many come to know the greatness of our Lords sacrifice for them and enter His kingdom. We are one in Christ. Never give up, you are greatly loved.

[@emmanuel8310]

@@gabrielleangelica1977 Says someone who said Chrsitians have done most persecution. Yet, Islam calls for the subjugation of other religions. The Quran commands to.fogjt other people and so on. However, I don't think Muslims should be persecuted and I think it's wrong. But, I'm talking to you personally, that you're not sincere. Islam is not favourable either.

[@knowledge_lantern]

@@emmanuel8310 stop talking rubbish the quran says no such thing don't be a hypocrite

[@aniccadance13]

Tom Holland is such an amazing writer and speaker..I think he doesn't know how beautifully haunting his words are❤️

[@DS-hy6ld]

I've actually never heard him speak on matters pertaining to the Christian Faith. I'm much more familiar with his thoughts on the Muslim religion. This imbues in me an even deeper level of respect for Tom Holland than I already had. He's extremely engaging, and he demonstrates a certain insight into the sublime. Thanks for posting this, Unbelievable?

[@ignipotent7276]

what are his thoughts on Islam

[@Apriluser]

He’s very near the kingdom.

[@gabrielsyme4180]

«“Then, what,” asked Turnbull, very slowly, as he softly picked a flower, “what is the difference between Christ and Satan?” “It is quite simple,” replied the Highlander. “Christ descended into hell; Satan fell into it.” “Does it make much odds?” asked the free-thinker. “It makes all the odds,” said the other. “One of them wanted to go up and went down; the other wanted to go down and went up. A god can be humble, a devil can only be humbled.”» -G. K. Chesterton

[@giovannymendez9587]

Why are you comparing satan and Jesus there no similarity at all satan evil Jesus good idk where You coming from

[@petergregory8864]

It's interesting isn't it, Jesus descended into Hell before ascending. Jesus being God, but why? I wonder, what is the theological explanation. Or is it a mystery. Like when he wrote in the dust.

[@giovannymendez9587]

@@petergregory8864 Jesus the word. Of God he is a God everybody think they know whatt they talking about but get fool by people thinking they know they truth if it not in the Bible the story not true

[@israelr2367]

Professor Holland is amazing. Every lecture is a source of new knowlege. I think he is a deeper theology thinker than he thinks he is

[@kentadamson6992]

This is hands down one of my favorite videos that has ever aired on this channel. Tom is a powerhouse of knowledge. I got so much from this talk.

[@aniccadance13]

Absolutely, Tom is such an amazing writer and speaker..

[@edh.9584]

I don't know if it's strength in weakness but in weakness it's God's strength that becomes visible.

[@zytigon]

Come Lord Jesus, show your mighty resurrection power. Defy the scoffers who say, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.” Or if not then at least grant us enough Christians in the land to form a hedge of protection against false religions. Amen

[@Americandream2]

Christianity has shaped the western world in a way that's remarkable and undeniable. In fact when I look at the European countries I stare the the beauty and living heritage.

[@adamsmith4195]

“My power is made perfect in weakness”

[@Holstson]

There is a lot of weakness now, when is this encompassing weakness going to blossom?🌸 ❤🎉? My foremost weakness in this moment is impatience…I fail to see how this helps or needs inspiration?

[@markweswhit869]

Thanks Open Doors, Unbelievable and Tom. 🙏

[@jamalkhan3708]

An awesome video 👍 very informative. Thank you for sharing 🙏 Happy New Years everyone.

[@06rtm]

I think it’s worth noting the symbolism of the cross. The cross is able to represent all of reality in a single image. Its up, down, left, right, all intersecting at its centre. Everything represented in its most basic form. So Jesus was killed on an image of all reality, and Christians now embody that image every time they sign the cross.

[@joeltechs]

A brilliant author with a brilliant mind.

[@anselmdanker9519]

Thank you for posting this. Great presentation. Compliments of the season and Happy New Year. He has a nice book on the Roman Army one of the best.

[@hhstark8663]

Tom Holland is awesome!!! I love his book *"Dominion: The making of the western mind"* . He claims that gender equality, human rights and many other aspects has there origin in and are exclusive to Christianity. He claims that secular humanism can NOT account for those aspects.

[@duncescotus2342]

He's right and you're right. Blessings for the New Year.

[@darlameeks]

He says that secular humanism is "completely Christian in its assumptions and attitudes". I have heard him say in an interview that even modern atheism has its roots in certain Christian traditions. Christianity is, therefore, inescapable, even by those who so ardently claim they have abandoned it.

[@duncescotus2342]

@@darlameeks Yes, you're onto the basic premise, which is highly paradoxical. I personally would hesitate to use the word "roots," or ply a paradox such as your third sentence, but the point that secularist VALUES, and even the IDEAS behind those values, such as inherent human rights, the progressive nature of time and learning, science, in short EVERYTHING good and reasonable is fundamentally Christian, I would heartily affirm. No surprise, as Jesus IS GOD in the flesh! But your second point is actually valid I'm afraid. The example Tom uses is Spinoza, I think, who was influenced by Quakers. I think so was Ghandi. Spinoza might not have been an atheist himself, but he is highly regarded by them today. There's just so much food for thought in Tom's head. Let's eat his brains. No... something like that. You get the idea. (Even zombies are Christian, as has often been noted by pop culture cynics.)

[@tripp8833]

as an atheist. I agree with him

[@duncescotus2342]

@@tripp8833 Really? Can you elaborate a bit. I would love to hear your opinion.

[@quietjarvis]

Always love to hear Holland speak about Christianity. Also I find the spider man jokes actually funny

[@christiangadfly24]

That was so sweet of Judi Dench to introduce Tom Holland.

[@Apriluser]

😂

[@charlieallansen9763]

An absolutely fascinating talk, with some very interesting Q&A’s. Thank you so much for putting this on.

[@TheMagnificentGman]

Into the christoverse we go

[@McFlashh]

One of the best actors

[@mikeslifestyletipsreaction833]

9th

[@ConverseContender]

Knew that was going to happen lol

[@vitormenezesdemattos967]

@@ConverseContender specially now with "no way home"

[@tripp8833]

I've never even seen these new Spiderman movies but I notice when I google tom holland I have to specify "author"!

[@nathanhunt6208]

Gotta be honest, saw that title, and got slightly excited for a hot sec

[@clarkharney8805]

Excellent questions; very well done. My inspiration for my Graduate history thesis was Nietzsche, it seems that Dr. Holland and Dr. Peterson also have noticed Nietzsche, Sartre, the influence of Marx, and even more; Foucault, on the Western Mindset of values. I love Augustine and Aquinas. Well done presentation, thank you.

[@phylliseichman7701]

😊

[@Moethical]

I thought he was Spider-Man

[@fatimasaeed539]

This is not that tom?

[@YahLovesYou86]

@@fatimasaeed539 no this one plays Batman.

[@amynatzke1050]

Fascinating, and then so much more. Thank you so much.

[@smsog2236]

Brilliant. We are living in a new age. How i truly wish Jordan Peterson could have Tom Holland on his podcast. This man has an important story to tell.

[@whatsgoingonwhy9096]

Gavin Ashenden asking the first question. As a fan of Anglican Unscripted and Unbelievable, its quite the crossover

[@mrbaker7443]

George Conger is good

[@Apriluser]

Good ears. Yes. Ashenden. 😅

[@albertpurification9413]

Yes , Tom Holand ,thank you .I thank u from Asia .

[@jakestevanja1304]

This was fantastic

[@isaackevinsebastian6278]

Bring more Christians to give testimony of their persecution

[@nathanmckenzie904]

Good luck with that. No where in the developed world are they persecuted

[@akhiljames3435]

Come to India you will get many especially since the hindu nationalist government driven by Hindutva ideology took over. If you need more severe ones go to Pakistan, Christians are caught up in false blasphemy cases and sentenced to death.

[@isaackevinsebastian6278]

@@nathanmckenzie904 west is in deep sleep

[@davidturner6280]

@@nathanmckenzie904 go to China ma, youll end up in prison.

[@andywong9847]

Read the book by John Foxe: MARTYRS.

[@ProfYaffle]

Sparrow's nest? Starling's nest? Swallow's nest! Ah. Makes sense

[@timothyappleseed2986]

46:26 Why is the cross the dominate symbol of Christianity? According to the standard theory of Christianity, it speaks to the enormity of the price that was paid. But for me and for many of the early Christians, I believe it speaks to how adversity can be overcome through a profound love and a sense of purpose. Personally, I don't agree with the "sacrifice for salvation" doctrine. I do however resonate very deeply with the ability to overcome adversity through a connection to love and purpose. Jesus counted it as joy for that reason imo.

[@edh.9584]

That's why Peter responded to the idea with incredulity, of course. It was the opposite of what one would expect, of what one would want.

[@nicksibly526]

The Christian cross must have been a great taunt to the Romans.

[@margahe9157]

Dear Unbelievable Chanal, could you PLEASE arrange a discussion between Tom Holland and Hamed Abdel Samad??? PLEASE! Mr Samad is an academic, born in Egypt, but now are living in Germany. He knows English well. He strives for the acknowledgement that the the idea of human rights, which Mr. Holland acribs to Christianity. are a fruit of the enlightenment movement in the renaissance.

[@sammygoodnight]

Not sure what your point is, but would just like to point out that at least two centuries separate what is generally called the Renaissance and what is generally called the Enlightenment. The idea of human rights did indeed first appear among the Spanish scholastic monks during the Renaissance (an intensely Christian era), and the idea of human rights was very self-consciously a deduction from Christian theology.

[@sammygoodnight]

@CDRN Right. Human rights is derived directly from Christ's teachings. From the idea that each person has a soul that is of value to God. Human rights could never be derived from, say, Buddhism, in which the individual human soul is of no consequence. Much less from Islam, in which all are subject to the will of a capricious god. Nor from secular ideology, in which the actual individual is secondary to the social theory.

[@fabbeyonddadancer]

@@sammygoodnight nonsense. I don’t see how Humans rights couldn’t be derive from secularistic thought or eastern philosophy .where are you getting this from

[@sammygoodnight]

@@fabbeyonddadancer where am I getting this from? From reading history, from which we can say with certainty that human rights theory as we know it was first promulgated by the Spanish scholastic monks in the 1500s and was very self-consciously Christian. We also know, from history, that no eastern philosophies ever gave rise to the notion of universal human rights and I already commented above as to the likely reason. Finally, what is 'secularistic thought?' What is it based on? What are its first principles? 'Secularistic' thought is nothing but a bunch of farts in the wind. Maybe you prefer this one or that one, but who cares? You have no idea where they came from and they will have dissipated by tomorrow anyway, to be replaced by new ones, more rancid but just as fleeting.

[@justsomeguywhoisntdead1158]

Will you be inviting Toby Maguire next?

[@edh.9584]

Perhaps one of the fundamental questions - there are two - why did God become man; and why did God have to suffer and die?

[@giovannymendez9587]

To many people talk about this and still don’t. Understand the truth and what Jesus die for but I let people be everybody think they know it all. Accept Jesus and obey his father and you would see the light

[@thinkwithscripture]

Jesus is the only way, the only truth, and the only life. Without him there is nothing to hope for in this life or the one that is coming. He is the redeemer. Christ has paid tremendous price for you. If you’re in Christ, you are no longer in condemnation. God loves you. He died for you. He is with you. God of heaven and earth richly bless you. 😊❤️

[@edh.9584]

"It had to be meaningless to have meaning." Robert Frost

[@edh.9584]

If I'm not mistaken they didn't picture Christ on the Cross in early Christianity, only later, especially at the time of St. Francis.

[@arulsammymankondar30]

Not only the now defunct Islamic state ,all Muslim majority countries target non- believers. This is in tune with the Quran which considers non- believers as less than human beings.

[@corinaijac4381]

May I explain, why? Just a day before or two the pope of Rome walked on the sand at the seaside and the very next day, a man who couldn't believe in god entered in the high water, to see how deep waters are. I'm small and saw all this ran to this man who losed his faith and offered him a seaside-souvenir wich he denieded.,,Cause you was so brave and entered in the troubled waters 12:32 ". Smiled. This man avoided the place next day, didn't knew the pope-alike let there few days before a little stone, thought by myself, water washes sins... I'm baptised, so..., it wasn't for me..., this man who losed his faith. He speaks a front for you. He's not afraid to speak about squarrie things. I hope he will enslave the women of his dreams. Corina Ijac

[@speck8553]

spooder man. spooder man. does whatever a spooder can.

[@patriciadewitt8100]

I believe it is true to ask what the world would be without Christianity and be concerned about it. Since I view Christianity as a sect of ancient Judaism I would love for the values expressed in the Torah and how it was interpreted by ancient Judaism (and Jesus) be included in discussions. By my view those values are rolled into Christianity. I would love Tom Holland turn his considerable talents to this part of Christian history. I am a Christian or maybe just as deist?

[@jimiawaydazeawaydaze]

A World without Christianity...by Tom Holland ...right her on youtube.

[@ms_ps91]

Tom Holland is the actor who plays Spider-Man! Did not know he was an academic Christian historian! LOL

[@jxmie3688]

😭😭😭How many multiverse are there😭😭😭the only tom holland i know is a actor

[@edh.9584]

It would be interesting if Nietzsche's reading is based on a misinterpretation of the Cross. It's not a victory of the weak over the strong, perhaps that's a Lutheran misreading. The Cross is: the power of God; the wisdom of God; the devotion to the Law of God the love of God vertical and love of neighbor vertical; and the unveiling in God's plan of the resurrection from the dead. The Bible stresses that one can't favor the weak or poor over the others either.

[@edh.9584]

That's Gavin Ashendon.

[@45s262]

The question then becomes can a church murder and torture for almost 2000 years in the name of Christ and continue to act and officiate in the name of Christ with any real legal and moral authority of priesthood power from on high? The answer is, absolutely not

[@chowzah287]

spider-man

[@corinaijac4381]

Never red what he has written, Nietzsche, red a psychology book about him and it's a great Abgrund between what he, as the book says, said and what whatever who understood. In Germany 1990 I saw a small parade of the nazis, in Lübeck, I asked what this may be, the turism employee didn't tell me, not to square me. They will allways be, so is how the world on the ground works, bad and good, poor and healthy. great fan, Corina 2023

[@corinaijac4381]

Who is asking should give some answers too. Like, how do you explain transcendent number ,,e", for example, humble rumble...

[@christianflores3188]

Really awesome!!!!

[@edh.9584]

Of course mystically there is a connection between the Holocaust and the Cross.

[@bcatcool]

Answer to the first question from the audience. Great re human rights. It isnt universal. Great view. Last night we were working with vulnerable people whose lives have been broken by abuse. They loved to hear the Gospel and Gods presence was with us. We are certainly experiencing a hunger for learning about Jesus about His Word and experience the power of the Spirit. Yes the Church MUST STOP bing embarrased. Fling wide your gates people - open your lives your homes (confront your sin) WALK IN THE SPIRIT

[@mrbaker7443]

Should be interesting

[@Frederer59]

At approximately 41:15 Tom must have said a bad word or two to himself while he momentarily stared at floor after the host suggested the church do exactly what the church must not do. That's a forhead slapper if ever I saw one.

[@thenero9493]

31:43

[@MuhammadsMohel]

Should be Amazing

[@edh.9584]

Of course they developed the Stations of the Cross, St. Francis had a hand in that.

[@corinaijac4381]

Are you a cosmonaut? I have no idea what you together recently did with this blue planet, great, get the earth upside down and after it again to the previous, no idea, it's still summer automn, nowone noticed..., no idea. Well done! Please stay, runaway is sometimes the easy way. You traveld so many times and you are not the only one, I know for sure. Corina

[@donyahya]

gruesome but fascinating

[@duncescotus2342]

Here is the new C. S. Lewis or something, something really big.

[@howardbabcom]

We so need another Lewis, and the Inklings, once again.Holland, Peterson and Murray may well prove to be the new vanguard.

[@duncescotus2342]

@@howardbabcom Good observation, brother Howard. There is definitely signs of a new humanism and on the back of it a new reformation. Praise God for it!!!

[@CaptainPilipinas]

'-and the meaning of the cross'. The 'Meaning of the cross'? well, it (for now(?)) Simply just means: Persecution (Literally). a Lot of it. and accepting it Fully. rather than as always just Choosing to keep up and Hiding behind in that Lukewarm 'defense' once Again like *Most* of whosoever of any of us here/out there do still. Tragically. - Not my (me, for example) own words alone.

[@fabbeyonddadancer]

22:50 cross Christianization

[@Demonoicgamer666]

If you need faith to be a good person you’re only pretending because a god is looking over your shoulder.

[@edh.9584]

All those mythical stories about a person rising from death prepared man for it actually happening.

[@Nahrin_Assyrian]

‼️Its northern Iraq historic ASSYRIA no need to say Kurdistan,since its NOT the land of kurds,and its just a political name Everyone know what northern Iraq means

[@YourHeartIsTheKey]

Tom looks different here!

[@uiPublic]

Had not a few powerless remaining disciples of Jesus forced the hands of tepid believers in likes of N'demus so that Christ wasn't a casket bones.

[@45s262]

The Church went into full apostasy under the power of the cross at the hands of wicked and conspiring men. How is it that these men kept the authority to do God's work on earth.. ? answer. They didn't.. God forbid, but the authority and kingdom was given to another nation who brought forth fruit in its season... the church went into apostasy then and remains apostate today..

[@juggalosispatientzero]

A man of many talents, though I didn't care for his performance in Spiderman.

[@vitormenezesdemattos967]

Are you gonna invite Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield as well?

[@ms_ps91]

Was kinda hoping Tom Holland - Spider-Man was a Christian giving his testimony!

[@mehfil-e-ghazal786]

That sceptic Christian apologist.

[@edwinalvarez1619]

You tricked me Unbelievable? I thought you got Tom Holland from the Spiderman movie. Booo! just j/k sorry guys I saw the title I had to do it.

[@DavidWalker1]

First time I've seen Tom Holland in action. Seems decent and attractively intellectually humble. And I am impressed that he's aware the idea of ascending to heaven was a commonplace in first-century western religions; most Christians make ascension sound like a one-off. But that Tom then settled on crucifixion as a central positive point about Christianity seems just ... peculiar. Certainly Jesus on the cross is a _very_ powerful story. But it works best when you don't think about the story's explanation of *why* Jesus was on the cross: because his father was sacrificing him. He was literally a scapegoat, a life sacrificed as a sign of commitment to a cause. The strangest moment came right at the end, when this historian expressed surprise that people's attention would be captured by grisly executions. "Mate", I wanted to say, "this is the foundation of Christianity's whole marketing plan for the past two millennia". Biggest surprise: despite the absence of any mention of this in the introduction, Tom Holland himself is apparently _not_ a Christian.

[@sarahhart2412]

No Tom Holland is not a Christian. He does not believe (as the gospel writers do) that Christ was actually seen eating and drinking and was touched (Thomas putting his fingers into the wounds of Jesus) by his apostles. He is maintaining - it seems to me - that resurrection from the dead was a common mythological (not real) idea but it didn’t- couldn’t have REALLY happened.

[@DavidWalker1]

@Caratacus Thanks. Didn't know that. Do you know any reason why the crucified Christ became a more popular image (other that the general rise of images post-1000)?

[@snikeduden2850]

The crucifixion of Christ has many layers, and there are several possible ways to make sense of why it happened (or what it meant, in a metaphysical sense). Concerning the notion of the Father sacrificing the Son on the cross, you have to take a couple of things into account. A sacrifice in Jewish context (or Biblical context), is not an offering of a gift to satisfy the recipient. It is a purity ritual (or an act done to restore ritual purity), through the cleansing of the blood of the sacrificed. In ancient Israel, the scapegoat was never sacrificed, but rather sent out in the wilderness. It couldn't be sacrificed, because it carried the sins of the people. It was unclean. Human sacrifice was neither allowed, because that would be murder, thus sinful (or unclean). Now, you might wonder, wouldn't that exclude Jesus? No, because Jesus is God incarnate (God and man at the same time). He can take the sins of humanity upon himself without becoming ritually impure - and he has the authority to offer himself in the place of mankind. Additionally, Jesus does not kill himself, but surrenders himself to the mercy of the secular (or wordly) authorities. Thus, in the crucifixion, (God) the Son rehabilitates humanity not through feats of strength (as is how Augustus, Heracles, etc, demonstrates divinity), but by taking the place of the lowest of the low.

[@DavidWalker1]

@@snikeduden2850 That's an interesting explanation, one that I've never heard before despite some time discussing these issues with convinced Christians. Would you say it is a mainstream or a fringe interpretation? (I'm taking it that the belief was also that in the wilderness, the scapegoat would thrive, or at least was likely to do OK.)

[@juanventer5145]

I hope that he does not swing off again

[@ajeet490]

Christianity started off fine until it became the official religion then all hell broke loose.

[@jonnyw82]

God killed his brother to teach him humility? Ok.

[@c.w_]

That what he believes. However, no one can speak for God. You can say it is a way of dealing with it but either way it takes real humility and courage to not seek vengeance.

[@daveyofyeshua]

1930's Germany could easily happen today in the West 😔

[@albionicamerican8806]

Yeah, nothing says that you're thinking rationally more than when you believe that Jesus is the judge of the dead in the afterlife, like he's Pinhead in those dumb _Hellraiser_ movies.

[@corinaijac4381]

*lost

[@ytube777]

"Really Tom, Christianity again?!@#$" - Dominic :D Just Kidding. Love Spider Man. ;)

[@sa9768]

Why did you erase my comments?? Are you really against persecution?!

[@sa9768]

@@conandeckard5541 I'm not sure what do you mean by "a spam account" because I only use this account!

[@conandeckard5541]

@@sa9768 I suspect it’s KZbin rather than unbelievable deleting your comments which means they prob think your a spam account

[@Zevelyon]

The symbol is the cross because Satan's spilling of innocent blood violated the contract he established with Adam and Eve in the Garden, thus reopening the door to God's Kingdom for the faithful. The cross is the symbol of Christianity because it is the coronation of Jesus as Lord of the Kingdom of Heaven and the beginning of the ultimate defeat of Satan. The cross is the ultimate inversion of death into life. It is God's poetry in history. It's not the symbol of Christianity because its "weird".

[@dantheman909]

I think by the context when he said “weird” he meant unusual/interesting. The change of meaning of the cross from evil power-mongering to loving symbol of salvation is a very big change and in some ways “weird”

[@Zevelyon]

@@dantheman909 Maybe. If that's the case then I take it back, but I do think that's a very generous interpretation of what he said and the context he said it in. Seemed to me like he meant it was stand out branding.

[@drewdrake9130]

Why don't they just demonstrate their God actually exists as something more than just conjecture, or the thoughts of a fantasist?

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

That's profoundly difficult

[@janebaker966]

I'm living proof that God exists in my very being because I am profoundly stupid,as I'm sure you will concur,I am deeply unattractive and thus have never had a partner and the sexual shennanigans wot everyone gets up to according to our media,tv,plays,books etc has never been in my life. Sounding dire to you,maybe it gets worse,I also never made the acquisition of money my aim in life,due to a predisposition that way from I see my family roots. So how does an ugly person with no sexual allure,no pals,no money and who gets told No by society at every turn live for nearly 70 years,and really live with a deep enjoyment of life. It has got to be the Grace of God.

[@dantheman909]

Certainly. Check out “the return of the God hypothesis” for a start. Then “mere Christianity”. If you’re seriously asking the question, the answer won’t be too difficult to find. But in the words of Chesterton: “it’s not that Christianity has been tried and found lacking. It’s that it’s been found difficult and so left untried” Jesus always finds us where we are. I pray he will meet you where you are and give you the answers you seek.

[@drewdrake9130]

@@dantheman909 Did they demonstrate that a God exists as something more than conjecture, or the product of an overactive imagination in those books? If so, please tell me what you think the best evidence that they presented was

[@drewdrake9130]

@@dantheman909 I looked up the return of the god hypothesis, and found this critique. Please tell me if it's an accurate representation. "I suspect that the science in this book - and there’s quite a lot of it - will, despite being well-presented by an eloquent and talented author, largely elude most readers. Perhaps more importantly, the context from which the science is drawn will likely be unfamiliar to most readers, who will have little familiarity with physics and cosmology beyond what is presented in this book. If this book were merely a popularization of the science of cosmology, that would be fine: people would gain a feel for the state of the field, for its complexity and nuance, and for the remarkable accomplishments that have been made in recent years. But that’s not what this book is. Rather, it’s an attempt to support a metaphysical argument by portraying science as inadequate both in practice and in principle, and so leave no plausible alternative but the eponymous God Hypothesis. To frame that argument responsibly would require considerably more scope and rigor than this already science-heavy book offers. To do it convincingly, on the other hand, requires much less effort, particularly if the reader is inclined to be generous and knows little of physics."

[@janebaker966]

I've never believed in the concept of Human Rights. That dates from a charter signed in 1948. My unbelief is mostly because from my experience of life I've never had any. It's a fiction. My Jesus says Fuck. I'm an irregular church attender but I believe in a ramshackle way but I don't want to be a Plaster Saint,a Holy Hypocrite. It really annoys me when if you say you believe in God and trust your life to God,the other person looks at you with an expression that says,"why aren't you nice then,you should be all refined and dainty and maiden auntish" but everyone is the way God made them. Maybe he likes a joke! A cruel joke.

[@cyanide_and_]

I'm on the decon journey, I seem to understand your language whereas I'm utterly triggered by Christianese. Is it just me that I find it highly ironic that the Christianity (the American brand but which my part of the world has adopted as well) I know is obsessed with power? If, after listening to this, the sense is to self congratulate, then what gives? I guess I'm too thick to understand it all.

[@davidcrowley1951]

Hope you can find a good therapist

[@beachcomber1able]

​@@davidcrowley1951 If you believe all that God bunkum you are beyond therapy. 😄

[@davidcrowley1951]

@@beachcomber1able apparently you were not raised correctly if you make such an ignorant comment

[@beachcomber1able]

@@davidcrowley1951 Apparently you were raised in some kind of religious household and subjected to continuous indoctrination that you didn't have the critical thinking skills to see through.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

How to know with certainty that the Christian god does not exist: There are over 100 eschatological time statements in the New Testament that all say the second coming of Jesus is “near, at hand, at the doors, will happen shortly” etc. Seven of these time statements (Matt 10:23, Matt 16:27-28, Matt 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, Luke 21:32) explicitly state Jesus’ second coming will occur before all his disciples die and in the same generation that the Jewish temple is destroyed. We know the Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 CE by the Romans. It is one of the most well attested historical events in all of human history. So what was supposed to happen at the second coming of Jesus? Flesh and blood physical bodies would not exist anymore according to Paul who was the earliest Christian writer. We know Paul believed this from verses like these: Rom 7:18,23-25, 1 Cor 15:50-53, Rom 8:23, Phil 3:20-21 etc. Paul also believed that the alleged curse of Gen 3:16-19 would be lifted at the second coming of Jesus. Paul states this in Rom 8:18-23. This would result in a universe that had no more suffering or death (Rev 21:4). So at the second coming of Jesus all the wicked would be judged and destroyed (Luke 12:46-48, Matt 24:45-51, Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15 etc.) and all the righteous, whether living or dead, would receive a new, spiritual body that was immortal and sinless (1 Cor 15:50-55). The fact that you and I are walking around in flesh and blood, physical bodies 2,000 years later is certain proof that Paul was not telling the truth. And obviously the universe was not changed into paradise in the first century either. Paul thought the physical body was corrupt and in bondage to sin because of Adam and Eve’s alleged transgression in the garden. It needed to be replaced in Paul’s mind. Paul says this many times throughout Romans and his other writings. So who was Paul? I am convinced that Paul was an ambitious, charismatic advocate for his new found mystery religion but he was suffering from hallucinations. Mystery religions were very popular in the first century throughout the Roman Empire. Paul thought these hallucinations were “revelations” and “visions” from his messiah Jesus. We can see clues about this in many of his writings (Gal 1:11-12, 1 Cor 14:2, 1 Cor 14:14, 1 Cor 14:18, 2 Cor 12:1-7) Once again, the fact that you an I are still in flesh and blood physical bodies 2,000 years later, and the universe still has plenty of death and suffering, is certain proof that Paul and the other NT writers were not telling the truth. The first century Christians were an apocalyptic cult who wanted to be rescued from the troubles of this world. Like all apocalyptic cults their predictions failed. Please remember that the Bible claims it is the “word of God” (2 Tim 3:16, Heb 4:12, Isa 40:8, Psalm 119:105, Matt 24:35 etc.) and that God cannot lie (Exo 20:16, Num 23:19, Pro 12:22, Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18 etc.) yet this god lied over 100 times about his imminent return that would make everything perfect. This was probably the most important promise in the entire New Testament. It certainly was to Paul. And this promise was broken. Paul considered the new body he would receive “salvation” (Rom 7:23-25, Rom 8:23, Phil 3:20-21, 1 Cor 15:50-55). This simple, sound, logical argument shows why the Christian god cannot exist. I was a Christian for 32 years and my purpose in writing this is because I believe the truth matters and also to help people escape the chains of religion like I did. Thank you for reading.

[@anthonypolonkay2681]

Your entire point revolves around the idea that you believe it has been to long for christ to return. The obvious problem here is assuming that you would have perfect technical knowledge of the timescale god is working on. I dont belive you have such a perfect technical knowledge. And I think you have made the assumption that it has been to long soley to build a case in your favor.

[@escapingchristianity8765]

@@anthonypolonkay2681 Matt 16:27-28 (along with Mark and Luke's versions Mark 8:38-9:1 & Luke 9:26-27) states that some of his disciples would not die before his return. No, it is not the Mount of Transfiguration. Matthew's version says "EVERYONE would be rewarded according to their works". That clearly did not happen at the Transfiguration. Matt 16:27 is directly quoted by the writer of Revelation in Rev 22:12. Why? Because the first century Christians were an apocalyptic cult. Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32 say that "ALL these things will happen to this generation". What things? What is described in the Olivet Discourse? The destruction of the temple AND the second coming of this Jesus character. According to Paul (please see my original post for the verses) this would result in no more flesh and blood physical bodies existing anywhere on the planet. And the universe would be made perfect as well at this time (Rom 8:18-23). This obviously didn't happen in the first century generation and is certain proof that Paul and the other NT writers were not telling people the truth. (Caps for emphasis only)

[@cristianfernandez1874]

@@escapingchristianity8765 Most of these problems are resolved if the Destruction of the Temple is taken as the "Coming of Christ" in a typological sense, then the other objections are resolved by the paradox of the resurrection happening before the Last Day and being the First Day of the New Creation, that fundamentally transformed any eschatological understanding available at that moment, in some sense the Gospels and the letters of the NT try to work this paradox out to the extend that is possible, the other parts have been filled by extensive tradition (theological and philosophical) on these themes. And the limitations of the understanding of the size of the world and other nations isolated at the time, made the Great Commission even to this day quite complex to fully carry out, we still are missing quite a lot of places, something the early church and Paul thought to be possible to complete in their generation. Taking a lot of quotes and mashing them together for an argument that we have been having for 2 millennia seems quite improvable to take every variable into account; I was in that atheistic/agnostic frame of mind for some time, but came to see there's no good reason to leave Christianity behind, the Modern Western World is proof of the madness that follows and was the whole point of this lecture. Study more and make better arguments, especially to come to a comment section of a Christian channel directed to a moderately educated audience that knows these types of 50+ years old arguments against Christianity front and back.

[@simonahrendt9069]

As a Christian and former atheist I appreciate your commitment to truth and your effort to make such an argument in good faith (as I perceive it). I would invite any Christian reading this to not feel obliged to defend the faith self-righteously but rather appreciate this notion of trying to figure out reality and sharing our honest thoughts about it so we can peacefully share the world we all live in. I have to admit that this notion of the second coming still leaves me with some cognitive dissonance. I definitely feel the thrust of your argument. I think Cristian Fernandez' answer above may indicate an understanding of the second coming (taking the tension in eschatology into account) that could potentially resolve the problem. But I am still not completely sure what to make of it since it seems to me that NT writers had the notion of an imminent and "literal" second coming that they seem to have been mistaken about. However, I mostly treat it as a mystery since I do not think I am wise enough to know the fullness of what may be communicated by early followers of Jesus when speaking of his second coming. Maybe they had misconceptions but maybe they knew something I don't. Since the person and teaching of Jesus and the God revealed in him strikes me as true overall, I think a good way to deal with this question is to try to grow in love and understanding and see whether the more obscure traditions of the faith become more clear over time. But still truth matters and we should honestly wrestle with these matters. I have no patience with a Christianity whose eagerness to defend the bible or doctrine exceeds its visible attitude of humble love.

[@cristianfernandez1874]

@@simonahrendt9069 good comment, I have to be more patient like you.

[@thegoodthebadandtheugly579]

Wow.. so surprised.. that Tom has a daughter. Always thought he as an outright gay man.. but obviously I was wrong. He is a deeply closeted gay man obviously 🤔

[@eddiel7206]

I am a big fan of Tom Holland and I do appreciate his books. In this case I however think that he is mixing two ideas Christianity and enlightenment. There are so many examples of how Christianity did not never consider that we are all equal and all human beings have the same rights (except perhaps the early church). Serfdom, slavery, inquisition - do I have to continue? Was it really any way better than what ancient Romans did? Because Tom Holland is a historian, he knows this, but chooses to not acknowledge only the facts that a good old fashion English imperialist would do, being convinced that his culture is superior. Just to remind this a little bit complacent English way of thinking I would like to remind of Bengal famine of 1943. At the end of the day we were not equal despite that we were Christians. Christianity was indeed far more advanced religion than those we had in Europe at that time. Human sacrifices were not allowed but we still burned people publicly alive - which ISIS did too. The advances were made both scientifically and as a species are due to ideas of enlightenment. Christian church did made an effort to stop development by burning people alive or forbidding ideas but Christianity did not succeed to suffocate the progress. We owe more to France and American revolutions than Christianity. The success story of these ideas continues, as far less wars are fought, and war many children survive infancy than ever during the history of mankind. Enlightenment is the word - not Christianity!

[@giovannymendez9587]

You sound confuse if you think that but it your opinion

[@calebp6114]

You should read the case he provides in his book. The Enlightenment was a result of the Judaeo-Christian worldview itself.

[@giovannymendez9587]

@@calebp6114 that not the Bible so it irrelevant

[@eddiel7206]

​@@calebp6114You mean that it took 1500 years from the birth of Christianity before the "true nature" of the religion was revealed? Why has Christianity been a force trying to push back development for so many centuries?

[@jnhofzinser]

@@eddiel7206 The "true nature" of Christianity was revealed in Jesus. Someone who healed people, including foreigners. Someone who gave dignity to a Samaritan woman. Someone who taught with the greatest moral clarity and insight. Someone who changed the world for the better more than anyone in history. He also warned that his Kingdom was going to grow slowly (like yeast through a batch of dough - Luke 13:20,21). Sure, there have been plenty of Christians throughout history who haven't lived up to their calling (to follow Jesus to the cross and beyond - Matt 10:39, 16:24, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, 17:33, John 12:25), but built into Christianity is the critical realization that none of us are gods -- but Jesus was! But please be specific: what "developments" has Christianity pushed back on "for centuries"? Christianity was at the forefront of abolition, and the correlation between the status of women and Christianity is considerable. What "developments" did you have in mind?

[@mindymild]

Suck it up Christians 😂😂😂 Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you

[@christophergibson7155]

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21)

[@leebennett1821]

One day Christianity will be Dead just other Dead Religion like so many others

[@thepalegalilean]

You've got 2 brain cells and they're both fighting for 3rd place.

[@leebennett1821]

@@thepalegalilean Hundreds of Religions have Died that People Found Comfort and meaning in what is so special in Christianity that it will not suffer the same fate? Not only that like many other Religions Christianity is Fluid and adapts to the Situation it finds its self in do you really think Christianity today is the same as it was 2000 years ago and in 2000 years it will have adapted again if it still exists

[@thepalegalilean]

@@leebennett1821 I never said Christianity hasn't changed. That's your straw man. My argument is that Christianity is a part of us like your arm is a part of you. When Christ founded the Church he planted a seed. And that seed grew. Without Christianity you have only a world of savagery. The sign of Jonah truly saved the world. And it will continue to because the Church's master will return.

[@leebennett1821]

@@thepalegalilean Christianity is the cause of much Savagery in the World as man Twists it to his own ends the Basic message of Christianity is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" which is message I can Get Behind the idea that the world would Decend into Savagery without Christianity is nonsense

[@thepalegalilean]

@@leebennett1821 The idea that the world would descend in a savagery without Christianity we have a bundle proof for. Now whether or not people try to twist Christianity for their own ends is completely besides the point. Without Christianity the world is a much more savage and evil place. And to prove this all you have to do is compare Christianity to what it replaced.

[@jackalsgate1146]

Either Tom Holland is a liar, a biased Christian, or very naive.

[@thepalegalilean]

Or you're incredibly uneducated. I think that's more likely.

[@jackalsgate1146]

@@thepalegalilean LMAO...well, you're definitely gifted at being a comedian. Fuckin funny.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@jackalsgate1146 I do have a sense of humor. But nobody's more hilarious than someone that claims the West isn't founded on Christianity.

[@jackalsgate1146]

@@thepalegalilean Learn how to read, dumb-ass. I never said that the west wasn't founded on Christianity. You did.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@jackalsgate1146 That's what you said by implication, jackal. When you say Tom Holland is a liar, Is a biased Christian or very naive, What am I supposed to think other than you have a problem with his argument which is that Christianity made the West?

[@thallesvinicius2729]

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