Unexpected Golf Lie Angle Test For Irons | Using Static Measurements For An Inconsistent Swing

[@roadtoscratchgolf3481]

This video shows us how important it is to get a fitting from a very good fitter who uses static measurements, dynamic measurements and dispersion from an accurate launch monitor. Now we know what to look for from a proper fitting. Thanks for the education.

[@bobpegram8042]

There is one thing most clubfitters don't do that I think is necessary. It is assumed that the golfer has his hands in the same position at impact for every iron. That isn't necessarily the case. Usually only one iron is tested for lie angle - typically a 6 iron. Often a golfer will stand up more with longer irons and squat more with short irons. Therefore the hands are higher with the longer irons and lower with the shorter irons. When I do lie angle tests I test with the longest iron and one of the shortest irons. I then figure out the number of degrees of lie angle difference per club and bend them accordingly. I do the same for my own clubs because I stand more upright the longer the irons. I have found that this method works best. Otherwise, for some golfers, even after a lie angle fitting the long irons will be too flat and the short irons too upright.

[@twang96]

So true. I’m 2 degree upright and can hit my 5,4,3 long irons pure. Meanwhile my PW, 9, 8 iron tend to pull left.

[@bwilson6269]

Thank you!!!! Man I have been on a neverending iron fitting journey, and I truly think I need this. I've had 3 fittings now and they all went different directions. I'm a 1.9 handicap who has never had fitted clubs but the last 2 years I've replaced everything in my bag except irons so far. I know I need 1 deg upright but I believe shorter irons may not need the adjustment. I explained this to the last fitter and he basically said that's a terrible idea lol. At this point just going to take what I learned and try to fit myself so to speak.

[@jacobmccain8082]

This is right up my alley. For years my lie board readings said 2.5 upright. I finally just had an old set of irons set 2 flat just to try and WOW what a difference. Haven't gone back and went from 16 to around 4 since then.

[@2ndswing]

oh WOW! Pretty stark improvements....

[@Willturn80]

Thinking about doing this to a spare set also. Did it change the way you swung the club?

[@josephstoll314]

As everyone says and knows in the industry, the lie board LIES.

[@bsmith4u2]

Great videon...Danny is hilarious. Soesn't matter what's in his hands. - PING measurements and lie board had me at 3° upright. Now playing a mixed bag of lie angles At only 2 to 1.5° long irons to flat on PW

[@reneforgues4467]

Eye opener for many… had a lot of discussions with my golfers friends in the past. I’ll now send them right to your video👍😀

[@chrishartney]

A very interesting video. I am currious to know what difference shaft length makes?

[@robertdavidsimpson]

Wow. My exact experience with club fitting. Reassuring. I am 6’ with 36 in long arms. Ended up 1 degree flat using pings system. I bought the Titliest T-100 which is 2 degrees flat of their standard. I’ve eliminated the big left miss. And like the look of the club better at address. Push draws.

[@SePhO11]

I had a fitting recently and have gone from my old clubs, that were also fitted, which were Ping G400s, white dot, 1” longer, to Wilson Staff CB, 1* upright 1/2” longer. I havent grown or shrunk, but my swing has changed quite a bit and i hit the CBs better than my G400s.

[@leftygolfer6337]

Yes. Definitely, I suggest to fit, especially lie angles. Difference of 1°~2° lie angle makes +-3~5 of your score.

[@petermartinaitis8166]

At the end of the day ball flight determines your lie angle regardles of what a lie board might say. Look at Ian on TXG he provides a perfect example.

[@jdschultz1230]

I purchased a set of TaylorMade P770 Irons back in February which I’ve still yet to receive. This topic is something that I’ve honestly been thinking about, because when I was fitted before for my current set I was told that they should be 2 degrees flat. When I got fitted for my P770’s I was told 1 degree upright was my fitting which seems like a big difference and this is going to be my first new set of irons. My misses are usually left with current set so I don’t know.

[@JDSFLA]

I just went through the same process last week, and like Danny, I did not co-operate much (lol). I am 6'4" with a 38 1/2 left wrist measurement and for 30 years have been getting my clubs 1" long and 2* upright. This time I went 3* up just to try to center the lie-board a little better, but honestly it made very little difference. In the end, static measurements are best for me, and give me a very slight draw most of the time.

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for watching!! You especially at 6'4" and 38.5 wrist-to-floor need to rely on static measurements because standard specs would have you working hard to manipulate your swing!

[@Bamaolive]

Where do you and can I get the ball with the cut out centerline?

[@2ndswing]

This was given to us straight from Callaway and we do not believe there is a way to buy these anywhere. We recommend using a sharpie and drawing a line to see the angle on your face! Thank you for watching!

[@brianday9216]

Very carefully use a rotary tool to cut the cover , but also make sure it's a two piece ball ....

[@legend9018]

Really interesting video. Good ball strikers can overcome to variables like that whereas I think less skilled player would’ve given you the results you were looking for. I think he’d fit nicely in a standard lie.

[@ChrisDavis333]

Hi I have a question, if Mizuno are generally more flat lie angles as standard and I’m somebody who’s static measurements say I should be 2 degrees upright, would that really be more like 3 degrees upright on a Mizuno iron? What would my theoretical miss be if I have no adjustments on a Mizuno iron with standard lie angles? Should I go with the 2 degrees or 3 degrees. Ping chart says im +1” length and 2 degrees upright, but I play Mizuno irons.

[@MichealBacon]

You use the measured degree and transfer to any club set. Since Mizuno play flatter, you'll bend more upright, but the results will still be the measured degree. Your theoretical miss will be to the right if not bent to your specs.

[@Victor-512]

Sharpie line on the back of ball at the range. Gives a good indicator on your lie angle since clubs will interact like a normal swing

[@2ndswing]

Nice idea!

[@Victor-512]

@Joseph D. Dang true but most have sharpie to mark balls at course. I used dry erase at the range and spray foot powder for impact

[@EFFTrudeau-001]

Even do at home with plastic ball and marker so don't have to hit far just compress ball so marker projects on face

[@neilb9682]

Strange question, but is that a static measurement with your golf shoes on?! It makes a difference as I'm borderline between two!

[@JDSFLA]

3:53 Looks to me like he has golf shoes on (since most people play with shoes, lol).

[@2ndswing]

We encourage players to wear golf shoes in for fittings as that will match what they're wearing on the course!

[@stevef4010]

@@2ndswing Why not get a grass mat and cut a hole in it for the board to the same height?

[@MichealBacon]

@@stevef4010 Or simply stand on something of similar thickness, instead of cutting into the turf..lol

[@NetoperekMordulec]

It could be interesting to do the same test with a high handicapper.

[@geoffcohen613]

Handicap has nothing to do with lie angles.

[@Wayf4rer]

@@geoffcohen613 Higher handicappers will suffer more from improper clubs than experienced players will

[@TheEugenelee13]

Would love to see what happens when you adjust lie angles on the driver, either with the adjustable sleeves or otherwise. I ask this because my miss historically has been left, so when I got a Ping G425 driver recently I immediately adjusted the sleeve to the flat setting. The miss left was gone, but in it’s place was a constant block right. I couldn’t figure it out given I hadn’t made any major swing change. So yesterday I went back to the standard setting and voila, the block was gone. Yes, I had 2 misses left, but overall much better.

[@2ndswing]

Interesting stuff! We have done some severe lie angle tests with irons but not driver...would be a good one to do. Clearly there is a difference created in dispersion!

[@robertdavidsimpson]

I have the g425 max. I use the flat plus setting to close the club face easier in the flat setting. Push draws now. The flat setting is big. 3% flat of standard. Also have the back weight in the heal position to promote a draw. Push draws now

[@BuffaloNickel9]

@@2ndswing well how would you do those tests with flatter or more upright lie angles on drivers since Ping is the only one who offers a flat setting on their sleeve ... got to love Ping! I was missing about 40% of my driver shots with a pull draw left... changed to the flat minus setting on my G425, same shaft, and pull draw was gone. Straight as an arrow. Lee Westwood also plays the flat setting on G425

[@drewgwins6073]

If you don't fit the lower irons correctly the lie angle will have a larger affect on ball flight. Just bc a 7 or 6 iron isn't offline as much doesn't mean that should be used for the lower irons. A good fitter will also check your lower irons not just the middle of the pack.

[@2ndswing]

Absolutely, great point!

[@brantray76]

Can I ask what that golf ball for lie angle is called or how to purchase? I can’t use marker on the trackman screens so this would make it much easier thanks

[@2ndswing]

That golf ball is a fitting tool we use and is not widely available. One recommendation that would work similarly is drawing a straight line on a range ball with a sharpie and lining that up to see where you're striking the ball on the clubface.

[@MichealBacon]

@@2ndswing Use a "wiffle" golf ball, one of those plastic golf balls with hole in them that weigh nothing and fly very short. Use marker on them and hit them full swing, they won't go very far or damage anything if used in doors. They'll transfer the marker line and produce same results as real golf ball.

[@rubensnaves]

how does lie adjustment can impact strike location?

[@Golfdiegogolf]

I made the mistake of telling my fitter that I was hooking a lot of my shots with stealth game improvement irons. Those are super upright obviously. I got the Srixon zx7 2° flat and was hitting everything off the heel and shanking at times. Got my irons adjusted back to standard I’m hoping that helps 🤞🏽

[@CraigMilliganSEO]

@2nd Swing Golf where do you get those balls with the line down them?

[@MichealBacon]

Santa has them, but if you've been naughty you won't get one

[@Simeon-the-Magnificent]

Good players will compensate to whatever lie angle is on the club and will usually present the sole somewhat level at impact. That's why lie angle measurements should be taken hitting an impact bag or similar where the player is not fighting to square the face and make a nice strike. From this impact you can see how upright the shaft is and then adjust the head accordingly.

[@chrisengland1]

I’ve been measured 1 up, 2 up & 3 up but from the ping charts & using the board I was always 2 up & every 2 up set I hit well but had to bend back my 3 up set as was not consistent. So I believe in the ping charts for lie angle but the lengths are somewhat off I find in taller people suggesting +1.5 inch length for me was too much but the ping charts are very good as a base & also I’ve found I get different results on the board depending how I’m swinging which varies being a mid to high handicap with physical limitations - I find use chart then test using that with board & feel as you can tell if it feels right

[@usmcforever7630]

Does work as well when you have a subject that tries to manipulate the results

[@rubensnaves]

how would you fit someone who delivers toe down, but starts the ball on the left?

[@Anjuuydhjjiskjhyys]

I think it’s a matter of comfort. Golf course is never flat. we are subconsciously trained to adjust to the situation for every shot. Ball above the feet, ball below the feet, uphill, downhill, and etc. Better golfer we are, better we are at compensating for the lie angle difference. I am also in “blue” range according to the ping chart, but i play 2 flat. I can play std, or 2up as well, but i am a lot more consistent and comfortable with 2flat.

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for watching!! This is a great point...and something that is very hard to quantify. The visual aspect. We always want golfers we fit to be confident in the clubs they are fit for. If we recommend a setting/model/shaft/etc, it may perform the best, but we want the golfer to also like the look and get confidence from it.

[@Anjuuydhjjiskjhyys]

@@2ndswing right on. I think this is the beauty of custom fitting and why it is so important to find a competent fitter who can catch these subtle details. I got fitted 25 years ago when the concept of a custom fitting wasn’t quite popular. My fitter knew from the get-go that i would benefit from 2 degree flat, and he was right. I just knew instantly that this is the right setup as soon as i made one practice swing. as a result my confidence went up, my club speed went up, ball speed went up. I can still play std setting. But it is not as comfortable as 2 flat. Finding a competent fitter is pretty hard though.

[@IntrepidGolfers]

12:23 if the line is leaning towards the golfer you would need to flatten the iron to get the line vertical??

[@MichealBacon]

No. If the vertical line points towards the golfer, the club head needs to rise (increase lie angle). Press the edge of a credit card into the palm of your hand and look at the mark. Then actuate radial deviation of your hand DOWN and press the card into your palm again and you'll see that the mark will be pointing TOWARDS you. Thus you need to raise the club head (increase lie angle) your hand in this case, for the mark to become vertical when pressed again

[@jaysp1910]

Are lie boards relevant any more,. Had a similar result, lie board suggested 3 degrees upright and couldn't keep it on the course. Fitted into standard.

[@2ndswing]

This is Thomas. I don't use a lie board in every fitting, it's just not necessary. I'm more interested in the ball flight. It's a good way to educate but end of the day ball flight/dispersion is number #1 for me.

[@jaysp1910]

Thanks Thomas. No way intended as any criticism of your fit. Just a comment based on their usefulness guven your vid and my experience.

[@joelane2845]

Hi Thomas! Question. So if someone tends to hit it on the toe and a lie board shows a mark towards the toe too. Does increasing the length of the club tend to help move the strike location more towards the center of the club? Thank!

[@NetoperekMordulec]

Yes.

[@2ndswing]

Hi Joe, this is Thomas. A longer length could move the strike location away from the toe and closer to the middle. So can a flatter lie angle but if lie board shows toe too, try 1/2" longer as well. I'm not so concerned with the toe marks on the lie board and more interested in the direction the ball goes!

[@jongsong368]

can you explain driver lie angle?

[@rayfarrell9482]

Nicely done. I am 5’9” wtf is 34.5”. Draw all my irons. Ping static puts me in 1 upright. Most off the toe. Going to try some of these.

[@tommyarnold8232]

Danny said he plays the 1* upright irons which he hits more than 10 yards less carry distance than the other lie angles, both flatter and more upright. The 3* up and 2* flat are both a club longer in carry than the 1* upright. Any explanation (assuming I have read it correctly)

[@billman559]

I have 30 year old irons. I believe the toe of the club hits ground more. Do I need clubs with upright lie angle?

[@josiahjones9521]

How od your ball flight? Pushing it left?

[@canyonaro]

The numbers are fun but don't forget the goal, which is to hit the center of the clubface and have the ball fly reasonably straight. Generally speaking, going upright will move your start line to the left and going flat will move it to the right. Upright will move your strike out towards the toe and flat will bring it in towards the heel. Mats can also be misleading so be careful with that. If you've spent 30 years building your swing around the dynamics of the toe digging slightly, going upright may be the "right answer" but could make you miserable. To use myself as an example, my miss tends to be a dead pull (path out to in with face square to path). Going a hair flatter turns that into a bit of a fade. Going a lot flatter opens the face to path and turns it into a slice as the toe gets stuck in the ground. You will not see this hitting off a mat - the toe will just bounce and send the ball left. On grass, the toe will dig and send it right. The main thing I've learned from several expensive, ill-fated indoor fittings is that golf isn't played on rubber mats. The good news is that you can easily pick an iron and have it bent. I also play tricks with grips; I tend to flip short irons so I build up the top hand (less taper), which slows down face rotation. I know guys who use midsize grips on irons for this reason but standard grips on their woods.

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for watching! Generally yes, if you think the toe is making more contact with the ground, you probably could use a more upright lie angle. But in an ideal world we could pay attention to dispersion and distance. Perhaps you hit your irons straight and consistently, so a lie angle change wouldn't be worth it.

[@MichealBacon]

Bill, get off your wallet it's time for new golf clubs and a proper fitting..you owe it to yourself.

[@gibsonjk4]

So if im hitting 90% of my shots on the toe that means the lie needs to be flatter or upright?

[@MichealBacon]

Sounds like you need a longer club length, half inch maybe. Check out where you are on the Ping Chart for club length and lie and begin there

[@Barney29508]

I checked my lie angles using a ball with a line marked on it with a Sharpie. I applied masking tape to the faces and hit balls off a mat. The lines were coming out vertical and right angles to the grooves, which would indicate that my lie angles aren't that far out - is that correct? I used the same set up and hit off a lie board and besides a mark toward the heel, the line was no longer vertical on the face, which shows how much the ball is raised and affects the lie angle by playing the ball higher above the feet. It is for this reason, I feel I can't rely on a board to give me the correct readings.

[@billyw2816]

If you miss your shots left, how many yards will 1degree change

[@HookedwithHundo]

8

[@tylerfj24]

this is what happens to me everytime i get fitted.. i can never get a fitter to find the right fit.. its always moving around.. or nothing makes much of a difference to say this is the one or not the one.. so frustrating

[@kourt2469]

I don't really think lie angle is going to affect strike location across the face very much unless a player makes major compensations from the different visual look. But most golfers wouldn't really notice a degree or two change. Shaft weight and length would be more impactful in strike location trends.

[@patrickhoward4080]

I’m same way. Always says I need to go more upright. I hit a draw. I lift the handle with a slightly shut face and it produces a draw. If I went more up I snap hook. I play mizuno stock lie and draw. Yep…It’s rediculous.

[@ultimatejay]

What I would like to know is what swing type dictates the toe hitting or heel hitting. Like Danny had toe contact at even 3 degrees upright. How the hell is that physically possible? You would have to have your hands super close to your body and stand up or have a nasty over the top swing. I have heel contact because I have a very in to out shallow swing.

[@danielfrancoeur8345]

Would have love to see the X with 12deg head.

[@mattbrown4269]

His strike quality is much better with the flatter lie angle. There’s no comparison with the smash factor.

[@ultimatejay]

but dispersion was way worse. Maybe if he kept practicing with it he could tighten the groups. Three shots isn't gonna tell anything

[@Kaddywompous]

I really don’t get it. My swing is not abnormal and nothing about that chart makes sense. I play 3/4 inch shorter and 3 degrees upright from the recommended fit.

[@bobbymarson6685]

You didn’t mention shaft length or flex which may have made Danny’s strike more consistent

[@teropa79]

A good golfer will do what you see here. Compensate. Take a mid capper and repeat. You’ll see totally different result.

[@allahalibaba9063]

Lie angle is very important..Was told when I started to play the game, that my lie angle was 1 to 2 deg flat...So before I bought my first set of irons, I went to a Golf Shop and got fitter on the strike board before I bought my clubs, and guess what, My lie angle was 1 deg UP...So best to get fitter at a golf equiptment store that sells all kinds of clubs and has a Certified Fitter....Not a local club house employe who works in the Pro Shop unless he or she is a PGA Certified....

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for letting us know your experiences. - Thomas

[@blakebarrilleaux8073]

Check out TXG's video "Does the lie board lie?".

[@Skye_the_toller]

so... if you are not 100% confident about the fitter.... trust the Ping chart??

[@2ndswing]

In some cases, that is what our fitters do. And it's why we fit both statically and dynamically. In other cases, strong trends may emerge in the dynamic test or the dispersion test that call for a different fit than the PING chart indicates. Of course, we also offer follow--up fittings for free with all of our Tour Van fittings. If a golfer gets a fit and wants to either confirm the fit or wants to make a tweak, he or she can schedule a follow up fitting!

[@mattbrown4269]

He was toe down with both the flat and the upright. The hard truth is that that’s a swing flaw. I struggle with it. It might be beneficial to mention to the players that come in for a fitting that it’s crucial to come into impact with a level sole and that whatever lie angle allows them to do that most consistently is the way to go. In other words, say this: “OK Mister Golfer, I want you to hit this ball with the sole level. Forget about everything else.” Then see what angle he is best with. If “his” swing is consistently toe down, he needs a swing change, not a change to a 5* upright club.

[@donsmnc5319]

Not sure anything on this test was conclusive, should have tried 5 up and maybe go back to the 1 up just to see where the numbers compare. Not sure I learned anything here, other than "news flash"! everybody is different

[@2ndswing]

You're right ... everyone is different! Just key to get both static and dynamic measurements when fitting for irons because sometimes one or the other will not be conclusive enough

[@zazhou]

Lie angle is an important and meaningful test for dispersion metrics. As such, it would be best conducted by an Iron Byron type machine to eliminate tester stance and grip adjustments because of visual feel and preferences at setup.

[@tellwilliams2551]

My guess is fitting is about a half degree longer on the shaft and a flat or lie

[@craigg2058]

Everything was interesting lol. My conclusion is that his swing wasn’t consistent enough to get the results that was expected. More upright more left, more flat more shots right. In my opinion a lot of people would benefit from a flatter lie, promotes a shallower downswing. I challenge everyone to try a 56 degree lie angle on an 8 iron. It’s amazing. $5 to get bent and you can alway bend it back. Most likely will have to be forged irons.

[@dennislegg4681]

This fitter talks in circles. Danny is 5* upright - it is really clear from the dynamic measurements.

[@tellwilliams2551]

I would say the most important thing then would be ball reaction when he hits the green bounce forward too much upright so what’s the answer

[@WereAllThatBored]

Ping has me at 3 degrees upright! Already play half inch long. Sounds a little hooky!

[@2ndswing]

Sounds like it will improve a slice. If you already draw the ball I wouldn't go that far upright - Thomas

[@golfish8589]

I wish you would have had him try even more upright. Maybe his natural swing requires a very upright club. And he spent his golfing career fighting what he thinks he should be. Like you said. "Every swing is different."

[@ddeboy002]

yup. If it ain't level it ain't right. golf - a game where every 10 of a degree matters.

[@briandavidson2684]

Great content guys, but let’s throw in some average golfers.

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for watching!! We're working on adding in some new personalities into the videos...these few months are just our busiest time of the year!

[@user-hg8jn6oz9g]

Beginning: Lie mean everything Ending: Lies means nothing

[@2ndswing]

Lol, thanks for watching! This was a wonky test indeed and not something we'd really do in a fitting. Nonetheless, a quick fitting to ensure your lie angle is dialed in for your swing could be a huge help for your game

[@Galaka100]

No doubt lie angle is important. Obviously, on the golf course you will rarely have a flat lie so you are always adjusting a bit I suppose. As for Danny, I think he should work on improving his swing path, face angle and attack angle rather than playing with the lie to fix his issues. And once he’s done that, buy some new clubs.

[@geoffcohen613]

Some of lie angles on OEM brands, are not consistent, and hence a 5,6,7 might be standard, then 8 will be flat, 9 upright, just aweful. Same with lofts, dont assume 4 deg betwèen heads.

[@tellwilliams2551]

OK the whole thing was the fitting so did you go longer what was the lying all that was finally excepted we’ve learned nothing by this.

[@briantorney980]

This face test is misleading. Golfers can move in or out during the down swing so the face test will show face contact not ground contact. Watch PGA Tour players. They use different ball and club alignments to fit their swing plane. The only accurate test is to use a lie board.

[@jimrichards3916]

I found it interesting just how many times " interesting " was mentioned. Don't you think that's REALLY interesting!

[@tacticaltruth8118]

So, let’s repeat this test with an average golfer.

[@zachselvig6364]

All I can hear is the noise from Danny’s spit when he moves his mouth.

[@exitar1]

Flatter is better.

[@2ndswing]

Thanks for watching - Thomas

[@CoconutPoint-b2m]

Why is flatter better. Thks

[@tylerfj24]

they dont call it the lie board for nothin

[@bmos212]

Lie board, lie tape lies!!! If a golfer early extends and raises the handle it leads to a closed face, but it'll read on the tape and the board as toe down but dynamically not the case