Universes Beyond in Standard?! MTGGoldfish Podcast

Universes Beyond comes to Standard along with a new release cadence and a SpongeBob Secret Lair!
Today's show is brought to you by Card Conduit - the easiest way to sell your Magic cards. Are you tired of all the hassles involved with buylisting you cards? Well, Card Conduit lets you skip all the typing, time and work! With their Curated Service you can send in as many cards as you want (with buylist value of $1 or more) and you'll pay just a 5% service fee, and if you want to put in a bit of effort you can use their Sorted Service where you list and sort your cards in advance and pay a fee of only 2%! No matter which option you choose you'll get a detailed report with the result and fast payment once your order is processed. Oh yeah, and you can get another 10% off by heading over to www.CardCondui...!
#MTG #MagicTheGathering #MTGGoldfish #Podcast #News
Intro Music: "8 Bit Adventure" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Adventure!" Que...
Outro Music: "8 Bit Ending" By HeatleyBros
• "8 Bit Ending!" Nostal...

[@jasonmillerprods274]

It's sad that WotC has pretty much given up on getting people interested in Magic FOR Magic. I am in that minority of people that WotC managed to pull away from Yugioh by introducing Duel Masters and then pivoting into MtG as I got older. I fell in love with the characters, the planes, the art, etc. It's very disappointing to have prominent voices in the MtG community be ok with throwing those aspects of the game to the side to "maybe" get new players because they really like insert IP here. We went from "This set just isn't for you" to "This product just isn't for you" to "This format just isn't for you" to "This game just isn't for you".

[@dud_studley]

They just don't believe in it anymore because the sales numbers don't line up. There's a reason why WotC doesn't really advertise for Magic. The original properties don't grab people. Meanwhile, UB effectively advertises itself. Once the key art is put online, it gets shared across all social media by both Magic fans and fans of the UB IP, content creators for both Magic and the UB IP make videos about it, and in cases like LotR, it makes the news because they put a million dollar lottery ticket in the packs.

[@ms.sysbit5511]

@@dud_studleyI’d contend most of that comes from the slipshod effort WOTC has given its IP for about a decade. It was great or good then it became mostly bad. Dropping blocks lead to rushed stories and unfinished ideas, inconsistent writers cause lots of disagreement on characters/lore, etc. I don’t think MTG’s IP is inherently bad but usually they phone in the lore and hope it works. Frankly, I’ll continue to UB as much as possible. If that’s not possible, I’ll spend time otherwise. Crossovers are tacky, tawdry, and desperate. In an era where other IPs try to cultivate themselves WOTC threw in the towel and opened its doors to any and everyone interested. It’s lamentable.

[@DoctorWhoBlue]

I generally line up with Richard, even if I'm not as optimistic. I like Magic's setting in a vague sense, and there are some great ideas, but the actual narrative has never been great (and has only gotten worse since WAR), and the worldbuilding often leans heavily on pastiche, even in beloved sets. That's all to say - I don't care for marvel or final fantasy, but Magic's world doesn't exactly hype me up either. At the end of the day, I'm here for the game, and as long as UB stuff fits into the semi-realist fantasy aesthetic, I don't care that much where it's coming from.

[@JayoticMTG]

Content creators are allowed to share their options. Just because they don’t align with yours doesn’t mean they’re throwing aspects of the game away. We’re all subject to WotC’s decisions, whether we have an audience or not.

[@JayoticMTG]

@@DoctorWhoBlue Well put. I’ve never been engrossed in Magic’s world and characters because they’ve always dropped the ball somewhere. That original Netflix series from 2018 would have been a great way to get eyes on a universe that they’re proud of, but that got stuck in development hell. Now they’re trying again as Magic shifts away from its own world.

[@quack2299]

The drinks of choice are exactly what I would’ve thought

[@aidansherwin3872]

youre so correct

[@TheMexicanZombie99]

Of course crim has his fancy iced coffee hehehe

[@Mimz670]

Does that bottle have a straw in it?

[@king.eternal5980]

Seth's phrasing says it all.. Next year we're getting 3 universes beyond and in between we have some magic sets.

[@sebastianmarkow6822]

Seth's face says it all 😅

[@TheEvolver311]

Yawn

[@ricepresidents]

If you can call Kaladesh: Tokyo Driff a “magic set”, sure

[@cablefeed3738]

I honestly think that next year would have been perfect if instead of shoving in a third UB pushing lorwin

[@TheEvolver311]

@@ricepresidents already had Kamigawa Cyber Punk Dynasty

[@woower100]

New Richard angle unlocked

[@westinrick802]

I saw this comment as the video was loading. I thought you were saying Richard gave a new opinion / perspective. I realize it's just the in person camera

[@ScottCastle]

😂

[@woower100]

@@westinrick802 Hahaha yea. New Richard camera angle always makes for a banger day

[@metatron8578]

It's finally confirmed that he indeed is not a Muppet.

[@jiratrello]

Just to share my opinion: i am fairly new to magic (started during covid) but one thing i loved about it was it felt elegant and somehow mysterious to me. That it was of another age. Commited to itself in a way that is rare in the current era. I never followed the lore but i did really appreciate it aesthetically. And that's what saddens me about UB. Is the dilution of this identity and it's history. I also believe new generations could've been brought in in other ways, and it's a false equivalnce to say anti UB is gate keeping. If you make a product with mass appeal you will always get more sales. But is that inherently good? I don't think so.

[@JayoticMTG]

I agree with that sentiment, but I can’t get behind gatekeeping. That just gives Magic and especially its community a bad look. For example, I know nothing about Warhammer. But every time it’s in the news, it’s because of enfranchised players being angry about change. There was an all-male faction that got its first female representative and the community absolutely lost it. I don’t want to see that in this community.

[@yScribblezHD]

Yeah I think UB is actually cool and presents some good opportunities, but I do wince a bit based on certain IP choices. Even IP I like that doesn't seem fitting for UB just stings a little. I loved spongebob growing up, some of my fondest and earliest memories involve it in some way, but the only way I can positively view the UB is through a meme factor lens.

[@starmanda88]

@@JayoticMTGidk I don’t think these things are remotely equivalent.

[@vc.moser.ferrier]

Exactly, very well explained. The mystery and elegance is just destroyed😢

[@JayoticMTG]

@@starmanda88 The circumstances are in no way equivalent, but an outside observer will see “Magic players gatekeep” and make assumptions. That doesn’t help the community or WotC.

[@taylornewman9561]

100% agree with Seth. I see the views of Richard and Crim, but not recognizing how long-term players are feeling after Wizards going back on their word multiple time is not empathetic. My line was when UB becomes as influential as the IP Magic itself. It doesn’t feel like Magic anymore.

[@choingler]

My issue with UB in standard is that my hobby is now an advertising medium for IPs that I really don't care to interact with.

[@ilyafoskin]

Exactly. UB just went from a novelty in Commander to a core part of the game. It is the game now. An advertisement vehicle for IPs when if any of those IPs brought out their own TCG, we wouldn’t even play it

[@TheEvolver311]

We already had a UB in Standard for D&D

[@ilyafoskin]

@@TheEvolver311 The D&D set was kind of in a weird middle ground. It was not proprietary Magic but it was almost like a theme set of Magic based on D&D like how Strixhaven was based on Harry Potter and Duskmourn was based on 80s movies. It was also as internally consistent as an outside IP could possibly be since Magic was based on D&D in it's inception. Since it was D&D IP material from their own catalogue, it could be argued that the Forgotten Realms is actually another plane in the Magic multiverse and I definitely saw it that way. As an opponent of UB, I probably wouldn't have made those sets if I had a say at the time but it definitely wasn't as egregious and a cultural tipping point like the first true UB set in Standard will be, Final Fantasy.

[@SaltySparrow]

well said.

[@brushwagg7735]

@@ilyafoskinFinal Fantasy is well within the bounds of Magic for me. That Spider Man set though.

[@christina.morris]

I'm a Vorthos player, and this announcement has more or less destroyed all enthusiasm I had remaining for Magic after this last year of trope-forward messes of premier sets. I can't even be excited for Innistrad Remastered anymore, and I'd been planning and making sure I had the money to pick up several boxes of it because Innistrad is my favorite plane. I don't think I'll be purchasing actual Magic product anymore. I may still buy singles, but at this point I'm still debating if I even want to play anymore. Time will tell. Maybe in a month or something I'll feel better, but...I've not been this discouraged about the game for the 29 years I've been playing. I say this as someone who has had only one thing in my life longer than Magic: Final Fantasy. I never wanted Final Fantasy in Magic, but up until the announcements this weekend I thought perhaps it might be the thing to finally convince me to accept Universes Beyond But I can't care about Final Fantasy if it's contributing to the erosion of Magic's own universe, which is what made me fall in love with the game almost 30 years ago

[@JStack]

I feel very similarly. The highs and lows before felt like it was still magic at least. Now they’re trying to swap out the lows for UB and secret lair drops and instead have just become cardboard funko pops, down to caring very little about official play and not wanting to manage commander beyond unbanning going forward. I feel like it’s def the rapid acceleration down the drain where as TWD was the official start. I still remember the “it’ll be marvel and Disney drops in 5 years or less” and being met with a bunch of resistance. Now look where we are, we sometimes get half effort magic sets inbetween cardboard funko drops

[@xxthevampirate]

I'm more of a Spike and I hate to see what its going to do to the flavor of the game. I'm less interested in watching tournements when UW magical girls is 20% meta, spiderman 15% meta and FF is 10% and all the actual magic sets are suppressed because the UB sets 'can't' fail for being weak like Assassins creed did. I have a feeling that at least one of those 3 sets were designed with modern in mind but they decided to move it to standard anyways and its going to cause problems with standard.

[@Aronax507]

This is exactly how I feel, thanks for putting in worlds

[@whatsupdoc6358]

This 100%

[@raymondhorn1052]

Well said! I was a huge fan of the lore! It had its ups and downs. (I think March of the machine arc was rushed) And it just makes me sad. It means that magic can't exist on its own merits.

[@MrBearsmithy]

To Seth’s point of people only buying the UB product they want. That’s what I’ve seen with friends I tried to get into the game. One friend’s favorite IP is fallout and bought a deck to play. He has zero interest into anything else magic unless it’s more fallout. I just don’t see a wave of new players joining standard because an IP they like is in now. I see new people who are going to be in shock of the money they have to spend playing standard and then being unhappy having to play with cards outside the IP they like to be competitive.

[@maxpepelotas2059]

And even if they play standard, the moment rotation happens they may drop the game

[@bf5826]

UB sets sell well because they are power crept. Why are UB not just re-skinned existing cards? Because they wouldn't sell well, because people didn't care that much about UB IP. This is a way to mask that there is a relatively finite pool of money Magic can make from a finite potential audience. UB is a way to distract from power creep to goose quarterly sales. The prophesy shall fulfill itself when now three magic-IP sets per year will be underpowered and will thus undersell.

[@michaelmaniloff9297]

Wizards only half cares about "new players". They are perfectly fine selling a UB set to someone who won't become a magic player beyond that set.

[@liamfoote7164]

I think realistically there will be some percent of players that will stick around. I'd be curious what that number is exactly

[@DamagePercent]

I’ve had the exact opposite thing happen. One of my friends got into Commander because of the Fallout cards, and he has 7 Commander decks now I think. Both outcomes are just as likely as each other. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

[@andrewbrock3675]

The community will maybe be bigger but it won't be as deep. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. My LGS owner is basically BEGGING us all to play flesh and Blood so he can be done with mtg.

[@KyleTremblayTitularKtrey]

Your LGS owner seems like a good man.

[@vc.moser.ferrier]

Yes, companies want the short term hype train but lose longtime loyal followers. New players are often gone as fast as they come.

[@MattGinger-v5y]

Same here, but with Lorcana. It's growing a lot where I play.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

Lgs owner seems like he wants to go out of business

[@andrewbrock3675]

@@dominicmetzger3246 nah, I think he's tired of inventory with every special version f every card plus the majority players just wanting to sit in his space and free play edh while contributing no money to the shop is what he's trying to avoid.

[@vulcanh254]

6 standard sets a year is totally absurd. The thing Richard talked about where you order cards and there's already spoilers for the next set before your pre-orders from the last set even arrived, I was already feeling that recently. Unless you're an ultra rich person, you can't actually afford to get everything you need right away. You only pre-order the cheap cards you think might go up, and you wait for the expensive cards to drop before buying them. But if it's 6 sets a year, that is fully unsustainable for a normal non-rich person. It's just too much and the fact that WotC doesn't understand this is just proof of how disconnected they are.

[@thebigsquig]

This feels like your favorite band announcing all their new albums will be half cover songs. 🤮

[@Lazydino59]

More like they go from hard rock to pop/country. Literally selling out as they say for music

[@davidfinstein9911]

And that all future albums will be *at least* half cover songs, if not more.

[@railander]

Great analogy.

[@TheTexasDice]

@@Lazydino59 That would still be original music. OP is completely correct, universes beyond are Covers.

[@MTGGoldfishPodcast]

That's a really solid comparison. Maybe they cover a song that you really love and it's great, but then you ignore the rest of the covers.

[@micheleformica6788]

People can say whatever they want but Magic wouldn't have been Magic if it was Universe Beyond IPs from the start. The lore, the art, the worlds defined this product and without them it's just a rules shell with a rotating cast of pop culture references that will get stale very quick. In my opinion this is the crux of the question, do you build a committed customer base that is willing to stay for the long run with UB sets? Or do you need something original and fresh to grow attached to?

[@DMG_MTG]

Arabian Nights was like the 3rd set lol. It was no different than UB sets now.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@@DMG_MTG Of course it was. It didn't have the baggage of a specific franchise attached to it. It wasn't Alladdin. The difference here is _theme_ versus _copy._ You can have a fantasy _theme_ without being exactly LotR. You can have steampunk without Bioshock/Fallout. You cannot take out Marvel from the game once you printed the cards, just because the franchise has gone to shit.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

​@@lVideoWatcherl Aladdin was literally in the set, lol.

[@TheEvolver311]

Thr IP has always sucked It was lame in 95 when I started and you find out our Hero Urza is essentially a racist eugenics It was lame after they rebooted the IP in Time Spiral and the new Planeswalker as a avatar for character tropes has never caught on and they have tried for like 20 years. Most people I've known for 20+ years of playing could never at any point actually tell you the lore. No idea who any character are etc..we only care about the ones who accidentally happen to be playable in Standard

[@RedArrogantKnight]

@@TheAverageGuyTAG Do you seriously not know what they mean when they're referring to Aladdin?

[@Caliban_80]

At this point wizards could put out packs full of old parking tickets and Crim would be stoked

[@pierredupont1096]

Crim likes everything except Westerns, that's all I really know.

[@maxxlanglois]

​@@pierredupont1096wat

[@TargetSniper365]

Stay mad clowb

[@gabrielarantest]

Maybe they have a conflict of interest in their opinion. If they criticize MTG too much, more players can quit and consequently they lose audience.

[@Archflip]

7:33 Crim, gonna be honest, I don't think people use the term "slop" with a positive connotation.

[@StaleBranflakes]

I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic

[@davidmorales-dm7xm]

I just don't get Richard's argument about trusting WotC, of course up to this point the company has broken its word on things in the past, so of course you take everything they say with a pound of salt.

[@frosty980]

This unfortunately marks the end of my interest in 60 card constructed formats. I love Magic and the world building that is expressed through the art and lore, and have no interest in seeing other IPs abstracted and interpreted through the lens of a Magic card. Don’t mind if others enjoy the universes beyond stuff, but it’s just not for me. I’ll keep buying in universe sets to draft with friends and play commander, so the bright side is that the wallet fatigue of recent years will go way down if I’m only collecting 2 sets a year. I feel crushed that the IP I love is selling it’s soul off piece meal and not investing back into it’s own world, but maybe distancing myself from the game a bit will create a more healthy relationship with it.

[@mindhackz]

On the same page with Seth 100%. Trepidation of it being a healthy decision for the game but realization there’s nothing you can do about it In Boiler Biggles we trust.

[@SaltySparrow]

I had so much fun with Bloomburrow standard, but it was around for a single month. My lizards deck died with Duskmourne. None of our standards will have room to breathe with 6 sets a year. To their point, you won't even get your cards in time to play with your deck a few times. That to me is absolutely frustrating and will be the second death of standard for me after this short amount of rebirth.

[@inegleit]

Bloomburrow singlehandedly kept me in the game this year and it was crushing when the whole machinery moved on just a couple of days later 😢 Still playing my mice on arena though..

[@danielklein5829]

19:32 I'm younger than all y'all and have been playing magic for a lot less time and hate the UB coming to standard, spiderman battling sephiroth is funny in a commander game or whatever but the actual feel of magic does get eroded by all of these. Rhystic studies' article on the subject summarises my thoughts pretty well, people don't care about magic lore because magic doesn't invest in making its lore fun and interesting.

[@AndrewS-vu4ji]

Crim is the slop goblin confirmed

[@drkatz1192]

Love watching Seth like he’s in physical pain over some of the decisions WOTC is making. I’m right there with you bud!

[@jeffreylooter535]

Half of magic sets not being magic IP just seems bad. I came to the game to play zombies and demons vs angels, not SpongeBob vs Hatsune Miku

[@Goldy01]

But What about Spongebob Zombie and Miku Angel?

[@blue9393]

I agree with Richard. You can't say magic isn't being diminished in favor of universes beyond. I don't blame anyone for liking UB but I also am part of the group that's just sad that the magic ip is being so diminished. And the story is already so much worse than it used to be. I understand people love marvel. But myself and others were part of the group that wanted to see Magic have stories as grand and epic as marvel and all these other IPs and become a great nerd fandom. But I can't fault a company for following the money. Its what they are encouraged to do. At the end of the day, I think, like Richard said, its changing. For worse or better for some.

[@ryke7656]

I didn't realize Lorwyn was being pushed back until listening to this episode. If that's not illustrative of their priorities, I don't know what is.

[@blue9393]

@@ryke7656 well put

[@light-chemistry]

I’m usually very pro Richard but I think one mistake he’s making in his analysis here is that large profit margins are the only/best marker for success. Sounds naive to say but large profits now do not guarantee large profits in the future: look at the literal MCU. The mistake WoTC (might) be making here is that they are burning through the good will built up with long term loyal magic fans. By chasing the easy come easy go casual fans at the expense of their own strong world building, there’s a real chance these new fans aren’t here 5 years from now.

[@ilyafoskin]

Absolutely. LotR, Warhammer and likely FF and Marvel will have massive success due to the novelty factor to outside fans of those IPs. I expect they will eventually see a lot of dropouts from these demographics because many fans of Marvel aren’t going to want to play FF or LotR Part 2 once Marvel has had its month in the sun. They’re cultivating a customer base, not a player base and most of the people who came to Magic before UB will be gone

[@light-chemistry]

Yeah - it’s hard to see how once we get past the very biggest IPs (Marvel, FF, eventual Star Wars, some others) how this will continue

[@pyroshadow33]

crim was part of the reveal, im sorry but i knew he cant be unbiassed

[@TheHutt0326]

You ever notice Crim just deflects when he doesnt wanna answer something? Seth asked if he would like Elsa showing up in his Marvel comic and Crim literally just changed the subject and never answered it.

[@TheXstasy]

because hes a coward and a shill

[@TransformersBoss]

3:09 “the One Ring… was made for Modern power-levels.” No. It was made for above Modern power-levels to artificially rotate Modern again.

[@xxthevampirate]

It was originally Jank unplayable card for modern but they NEEDED it to be really good so they changed it late into design and pushed it without testing just like nadu.

[@ArtisticTomahawk]

That's why I no longer call it Modern, it's Horizons. Modern was replaced. Same is going to happen to ALL formats now...

[@blkvnm6003]

Yeah but there is over 300 cards in the LOTR set and only 2 that actually see play that's less than 1% of the whole set actually saw meta play let alone play at all.

[@ArtisticTomahawk]

@@blkvnm6003 1% too much. Should have been Commander only, let the casuals have the UB sets :/

[@svendejong8110]

Seth's point at 38:00 is spot on in my opinion. Wizards sees all the $ to be made by making Magic more collectible and less game. Would love to see you guys come back to this point in the future.

[@yarrrthekraken]

Also, the dismissiveness toward the people who are hurting about this is offensive. Jesus.

[@Geallach83]

Crim's "I love this so f y'all" mindset was a... unique choice.

[@AaronOneal-e7h]

It's a typical Commander players mentality not all that unique honestly.

[@yarrrthekraken]

Also holy shit the love for the Marvel panel is self selection bias.

[@JStack]

6:10 Crim defending WOTC from the standard hate by claiming no one plays standard anyway isn’t the company flex he thinks it is lmao

[@qut0n]

He's so hilariously of out-of-touch influencer. This just endless content for him, he doesn't care about the game.

[@raymondhorn1052]

​@@qut0nI think it's so funny that crim pretends he is the edgy one but still has to have a content warning at the start of each of his videos asking people not to make fun of him. Also I am confused with his logic? By introducing new standard sets even faster how are these new players gonna keep up? Idk just worried about this game that I love.

[@SilverAlex92]

I think his comment was more along the lines of "the people threatening to quit standard over this are a very small minory". Like I dont think this reaction is nowhere near close the reaction to the commander bannings for example.

[@JStack]

@@SilverAlex92 the only reason it’s not at the level of the commander bans is because no one plays standard lol if 99% of standard players left it wouldn’t equate to 1% of commander players. The moment they have digital commander that doesn’t look like windows 98, standard is left face down in the water

[@danielsnyder6159]

@@SilverAlex92what his comment meant was that it’s funny how everyone constantly trashes standard and says stuff like “nobody plays standard” or “standards garbage” all the time but now when wotc wants to do something like this everyone is all of sudden acting like standard has been so near and dear to them this whole time. I completely understand what he means because anytime I talk about standard, wanting things to be better, saying how good it currently is, or wishing my FNM would play standard again instead of 24-7 EDH bullshit, everyone just shits on it and tells me “who cares about standard?” “lol you still play standard bro?” Etc. Standards the only format I REALLY care about and I’m gonna be really sad if they mess it up now that things are starting to get much better for it. MTG has been such a heartbreaking hobby the last few years and I really don’t want to have to quit because it went too far in a direction I don’t agree with. 😢

[@miauksas2421]

Crim is such a good little consumer

[@_Ve_98]

I actually think that losing older players is also bad for the new community because it destroys the game's history. And I don't mean that just in terms of lore, but in terms of understanding of the game. You see this often in some fandom communities, how when there's a big new influx of people it's like if all the discussions and lessons learned had to be repeated again. Then there's the level of investment, and I don't mean this in monetary terms. A lifelong player that starts now is less emotionally invested in the game than someone that has been playing for decades and is now leaving. They might be that invested in the future, but that takes time. People who's life has been marked by magic are much better ambassadors for the game, they tend to create content, help other players, become judges... I don't think games should cater to the "oldest common denominator" and refuse to change, but changing too much too fast is extremely dangerous because it can destroy things that will take many years to build up again.

[@davidbridges2607]

How long you think until WOTC, or more likely an enfranchised group of “older players”, make a new format where all UB cards are banned? Or is this even likely at all

[@GabAssbreaker]

​​​@@davidbridges2607im sure that will happen, theres two really popular formats for people who only like to play with old border cards called Pre-Modern and Old School 93/94, so i dont see why someone can't make something like "old school Modern" or "Pre-Commander EDH"

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@davidbridges2607never

[@Norgorber]

​@@davidbridges2607 I doubt Wizards would ever, but a fan-format could work: pre-modern is a fan-format with a real fanbase for it, I think something like that for 2000's and/or 2010's magic could definitely be viable with the right ppl behind it.

[@Lazydino59]

The bastardization of the game I loved and grew up with truly is saddening. We have slipped down the slope. The game is fundamentally changed in the past 5 years and will never be the game it once was. I’ll continue to play and have fun but the good old days are NEVER coming back.

[@beingbag2606]

if they had put the 2 million dollar lottery ticket in bloomburrow instead of LOTR we would be hearing about how the Magic IP is super profitable instead.

[@mythoclast4662]

real as fuck

[@adameschete9165]

A serialized 1/1 one ring not named “the one ring” doesn’t fetch the same money. Most of that value would be lost by making it just a powerful in I.P. MtG card.

[@Xynic.7391]

I agree with Seth on Pioneer. It was our final frontier

[@autoenthused]

Crim: I’m not scared of power creep because they’re designing for Standards WotC: designing for commander

[@justchica3243]

they design for multiple types of players?

[@autoenthused]

@ lighten up bub, it’s called a joke smh

[@justchica3243]

Aight man but I’d say plenty of people say this without joking

[@-homerow-]

Aw thank you for reading my fishmail! So happy to get a family update 😊

[@JesperoTV]

Wow, I usually like Crim, but his comments here left a bad taste in my mouth. I know he didn't, but it almost sounded like he was paid to promote UB products

[@Cloudy573]

I'm even a Final Fantasy fan but I still have zero excitement for Final Fantasy in standard and pioneer. 50% of all new premier sets being external IPs isn't what I ever wanted to see Magic become. No disrespect to those who are excited by this news, but this will lead to me taking a significant step back in how much time and money I spend on Magic.

[@Guevon_Pajaro]

For sure. And I know it's probably the long term death of thd game when they make these obvious cash grabs - - it's lots of money in the moment at the expense of the long term player base. Idc what they say the reception to this news is - - nothing convinces me that this is good news long term

[@latov17]

I was hoping the FF set would be like a straight to modern set like LOTR was. Now that’s it’s going to be in standard and obviously powered down? No good. 1/10

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@latov17obviously powered down? Plenty or recent standard designs have had impact on Modern and Pioneer is pretty much BX from standard of the previous 4 years

[@quickhands7008]

Watching yall so eagerly defend corporate greed is wild disappointing

[@BlightDragonBrewery]

This

[@Goldy01]

Watching yall seethe so hard is wild amusing

[@BlightDragonBrewery]

@ cause you’re a trash person

[@BlightDragonBrewery]

@ to take delight in the misfortune and sadness of others is a bad look. Idc what you have to say. It’s a bad look. That’s what makes it trashy. Before you respond.

[@Tclark6199]

Wizards has functionally crushed their own IP with the success outside IP has created for them. I have no idea how they intend to keep this pace after tapping out the largest UB sources. This feels bad

[@Goldberry69]

They aren’t gonna run out of outside IP sources for years and years. I mean, if they’re willing to use Spongebob Squarepants, then they are willing to use anything. Literally anything.

[@JStack]

Not spending 6 months making arena 4 player back during early alpha has been a tens of millions of dollars level mistake

[@michaelcollins4534]

The closest thing I can compare it to is what happened with the total war franchise. They were popular and successful, but then they did a Warhammer fantasy crossover and it was huge. And ever since then their historical games have tanked constantly. Interesting to see where things go for both

[@naramoro]

There will be a Marvel set every year for the next 5 years

[@ajtf8691]

@@michaelcollins4534 I've been absolutely in love with TW:WH3 for most of this year (only TW I've played, not interested in historical ones for aesthetic reasons), but I was just thinking recently how the OG fans must feel a bit abandoned, with support for the Warhammer trilogy having been so omnipresent over the last 8 years, and with Pharoah apparently being quite meh. It's a very good comparison though; Total War was very niche, perhaps peeking into the mainstream with Rome and Medieval II, but mostly only starting getting bigger by association with the Warhammer IP, whereas Magic was stalwart but consistently a bit apart from mainstream culture. Clearly that gap is being bridged right now (to short-term gains for game), but I think Seth had the best point this episode when he wondered whether the Final Fantasy or Spider-Man fans will stick around. As much as I love TW:WH3, if CA went back to making exclusively historical games, they would lose me, and Magic's own IP being weaksauce and unsupported will lead, I think, to the same type of situation here.

[@Glonk_Respecter]

Seth has a lot of valid points.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

Richard explained the problem exactly... sure marvel and final fantasy and stuff will sell like crazy and of course some shitty need for speed magic set wont because the care and creativity ISNT THERE. Theyre putting almost all their effort into universes beyond INSTEAD of in-universe where weve had cowboy hats, detective hats, need for speed/death race, even duskmorne is just 80s/horror UB that they couldnt get licenses for... what the hell happened to cool magic ideas? I have no issue with UB existing but I have a huge problem with the difference in effort and care put into UB vs Magic IP material. Id do a better job creating set themes and sets than WotC for magic at this point and theyve got a whole staff working on it. Thats frankly pathetic and disappointing

[@thatepicwizardguy]

Also all my favorite characters playable in magic even with all the new UB coming up are still magic specific characters like Gisa, Selvala, Tsabo, the Weatherlight crew, Titania, and many more (planeswalkers arent even in my like top 20 and theyre cool too) Im way more into magic characters in the context of magic than I am about Sephiroth or Sauron or Mario or Storm or Spongebob even though I like all those characters...

[@drewhougard8717]

What's scary to consider is that if we look back critically, it's been that way for awhile. Even as far back as War of the Spark, which felt like genuine MTG lore... the entire War of the Spark era rode parallel to Marvel's Avengers arc and Infinity War. MTG has been banking on and reskinning entertainment culture a bit longer than we'd like to admit, and I think I know why - When Hasbro took over MTG, there was a somewhat immediate upscale in the tempo of releases and the amount of different products in those releases, and now we're to the point new product comes out and it just feels like there isn't even time to enjoy it or let it settle because the next new thing releases in a month. Good and thoughtful stories aren't created that way, in part because the story you're telling right now you really want people to listen to and absorb, AND you need to give yourself enough time as the author to come up with a really good direction of what happens next. Of course sometimes you take the good with the bad, just like was mentioned in the video. Duskmourn and Death Race feel more like skins or one-off fish bowl themes than they do belonging to any kind of continuity, but they are technically within the lore and we just have to live with that. I personally hope, despite feeling like it will go otherwise, that a sans-UB Commander "format" becomes widely discussed so that players who didn't want to engage with UB don't need to. Podcasters can talk about how it doesn't matter if someone else plays a Tim the Enchanter, but that feeling is somewhat based on how frequently that discontinuity happens. Once? No big deal... over and over again? That starts to feel different, and if WotC is going to prioritize UB you have to imagine over time that's going to cause those appearances and instances to occur much more frequently.

[@JayoticMTG]

We’ve seen 2 cards from Aetherdrift, how do we know it’s going to suck already? We don’t know that this is a permanent change going forward or if it’s just for next year. Magic’s tropes got more on the nose recently, but there are a ton of beloved sets that are just as trope-y and gimmicky. The designs don’t feel lazy to me, it’s just a bit tacky to have cards named High Noon and This Town Ain’t Big Enough.

[@KellyUnekis]

"Cool magic ideas" got retread into oblivion.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@drewhougard8717Hasbro has owned WotC since 1999/2000 the game has existed under Hasbro for nearly its entire existence.

[@Zanzibawrr]

Also i am calling it here and now: AI art will inevitably be the norm for MTG. The second it becomes profitable, they will go back on their word.

[@ironpalmmonk1199]

Im not part of the doom and gloom crowd that is KZbin and Reddit regarding MTG but AI art is something that would drive me up a wall in anger. And you’re right: they totally would go back on their word as they are already open to it.

[@markaurelius2333]

at this point AI art would be the solution for everything... release UB sets but also push out AI art for original MTG characters.. you dont like super man? just get your alternative art odric.. same card but different artwork but MTG lore

[@CreateWorlds]

@@markaurelius2333ew

[@railander]

I think they are already using it in Alchemy.

[@TheTexasDice]

Garbage card art has been a thing since Ixalan. You could put almost any art from any cards in those sets, put them on another card and nobody would notice. it's all CG/AI assisted slop

[@thomasanderson27]

Richard nailed it. This looks like the death of paper standard. Simply too many cards and too many sets. The price point for entry into paper is too high for new players.

[@chillfox5711]

Love you guys and wish you nothing but success. I’m one of the older players that’s leaving the game with these announcements. Hopefully three new players fill in behind me for you guys.

[@aaronlutz5560]

19 sets for standard at its biggest is huge. What a gigantic format. That really worries more than Spider-Man

[@Teurger]

What I see in this announcement is WotC admitting that Magic IP failed. They tried to create non-card MtG games - all failed. They tried to release MtG movie/show/anime/something - and it's still "in development" and "coming soon" for 10+ years. They were releasing MtG lore - and we went from full books to shorter novels to short pieces on website, and quality went down with years. People outside MtG don't even roughly know what MtG universe is, unlike other card games like YuGiOh. So, IP was failing for years, and all this plus canceling of lastest Magic TV show attempt feels like last nail in the coffin.

[@bladesqueen5201]

the sad part is that i think it's important to say that the magic ip "failed... to be profitable" ; all of these things are hard to account for on the financial side, but absolutely added to magic the gathering in many ways - and some of them were harmed by attempts to directly monetize them. i don't think the magic IP failed to do many things; it was popular, it was a creative work that had many positives for decades, ect ect, but it's so much cheaper and more profitable to attach other IPs to your game than to pay writers to come up with product that isn't directly profitable

[@TheTexasDice]

Ironically, the solution would have been to cross-breed Magic the Gathering with Dungeons and Dragons way more. REALLY push the Innistrad, Zendikar and Ravnica modules to hook the lore nerds from DnD. Sadly, both MtG and D&D are mismanaged completely. This short-term profit mentality will burn out at some point.

[@guilhermebasso9219]

It's so bizarre. LoL had waaay worse lore, they still managed to create a very good show that increased the value of their IP and got more people to know it. If Hasbro had put the money and effort into a Brother's War Anime or something, could have been so good. But they are just too incompetent.

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

the netflix show is coming. It kinda got overshadowed a ton, but at the same panel where they announced the 50/50 UB they also announced the official showrunner and that they'd been working on the show for about a year. It seemed like they were pretty far along in the development of the show.

[@itheruler2157]

Interesting thought. Magic IP is already a mish mash of all this different worlds and genres and characters with no clear single identity

[@MrGeoghagan]

I don't have the energy to respond to every single take from Richard and Crim along with their constant pushing hard for WotC . The arguing over and over that UB is good and just ignore it if you don't like it except players can't because it is now everywhere and we'll likely never get in universe variants. Might as well just say "don't play magic". Sales of UB are not a good metric for gameplay experience nor player retention. Crim and Richard being always on board with pretty much anything WotC does isn't a surprise much anymore, it's mostly irritating how dismissive they are of anyone disagreeing.

[@ilyafoskin]

I don’t necessarily blame Richard, he’s mostly only a Magic player for work now and it’s clear that One Piece is his paper TCG now. He will just go along for the ride. But for Crim there’s no excuse, he just has absolutely atrocious taste and doesn’t seem to care about the internal consistency of anything. He probably wouldn’t even care if Marvel started selling advertising space for random characters from other IPs by making them main characters in his favourite comic series

[@BubbleMoth]

Yeah, its disappointing, but their entire company is pretty much just magic. I don't think they'll ever be THAT critical of the game. they have to stay positive and win over whoever is coming into the game.

[@ilyafoskin]

@@BubbleMoth Definitely, I forgot that aspect too. I got a sense that Seth is not happy about this but he has to grin and bear it for his job. What choice does he have really?

[@armedjoy3045]

More new people is good for content creators

[@scottcampbell9515]

The Forever 21 & Hello Kitty point makes no sense. You can go into that store to buy non-Hello Kitty items. If they design Standard in a manner where you can't engage with Universes Beyond cards in order to do well at just FNM then one is forced to engage with something they don't want.

[@Sicktoid]

Is someone putting a gun to their head and forcing them to go to the FNM to play standard? Don't they have the same freedom to not engage with a format that they don't find appealing? I don't quite get it.

[@scottcampbell9515]

@@Sicktoid So they should just quit playing Standard? Currently (and probably for the foreseeable future) the most supported competitive format? Do you get it now?

[@randomaether]

​@Sicktoid I remember when people said that this product is not for you, I see we evolved into, this format is not for you. What next? This game is not for you, perhaps?

[@scottcampbell9515]

@@randomaether we’re there now.

[@Gorbgorbenson]

I just wish they would have allocated more resources into the story. My interest in standard went from very high due to foundations being a really cool set, to insanely low and only looking forward to Tarkir, if even that, because they'll probably muck it up further than it was left.

[@hauntedmoose411]

"keep telling good magic stories, but not like Tarkir, or the Jace-stice league, or homelands, or karlov manor, or..."

[@grimbeefers]

I wish when they discussed these controversial topics, they made more effort to balance viewpoints. We've got Crim, who is 1000% on board with anything and everything Universes Beyond, a neutral Richard, and a "skeptical" Seth. What we don't have is someone that actually cares about and likes MtG lore to truly represent the other side of this discussion. Much like with the recent Commander bans, it just makes for a bunch of enfranchised content creators agreeing with each other, or having mild conflicting concerns, at most. That doesn't make for very compelling debate or discussion.

[@Iptqwerty]

I got the feeling Seth was in the bracket you described but since the other two seemed so confident about UB he just didn't voice his opinions as much. Happens all the time in these podcasts. The cast has different opinions but Crim is louder than the others.

[@DamagePercent]

⁠@@IptqwertyCrim doesn’t talk for like 80% of this podcast, it’s mostly a Richard and Seth back and forth until they start talking about the Secret Lair drop around 40 minutes in.

[@xavierlanglands9486]

It's really sad that so many people excuse UB's infectious spread into Magic simply by saying "It's cool" or "It's an IP I like!". Decades of magic lore, theming, characters, and worldbuilding, with dozens of extremely unique yet somehow cohesive pieces just wither away because Captain America is on a card! Aside from seeing a character represented mechanically on a card, I don't see what's captivating. It's novel, sure, but is that novelty worth the immense damage done to Magic's story?

[@jiratrello]

Emotionally preparing myself for my fave mtg boys to have the worst pro UB takes of all-time.

[@MediumChungus223]

Crim "I enjoy corporate slop", the Asian Avenger

[@ilyafoskin]

I’m about to start listening. I already know Crim is going to love this because he doesn’t care about flavour and internal consistency in Magic and would prefer to play a Marvel game with Magic rules anyway but I’m expecting Seth and Richard to not be happy about this. Let’s see

[@jiratrello]

@@MediumChungus223 I love him and he's entitled to his opinion but I can't relate 😹 Anyway sorcery contested realms is looking more and more enticing

[@ammonaustin9081]

@@MediumChungus223 Crim is a meme & I cannot take his opinions seriously lmao

[@rjswonson]

As a new player, I have actually liked some amount of UB. It felt fine in commander since commander is meant as a format where people express themselves through their decks. But the proliferation of these cards throughout the game is off-putting. I think LotR has gotten away with it since the flavor lines up somewhat. I can't shake the feeling of "fortnight the cardgame" that this all gives me seeing spiderman in standard.

[@rjswonson]

And I say that as a massive fan of Spider-Man. I have very fond memories of reading the comics as a kid.

[@tendo339]

Does Crim realize he talks only about other IPs and not MTG? He is so much the issue incarnated.

[@RunningVandalFilms]

I just don’t understand the argument that if the game is good and the cards work then the universes beyond doesn’t matter. The style and art of magic is my favorite part. The game is fine, but finding a card with sweet art that has dope lore is awesome. Getting attacked by sandy cheeks on a regular basis will be a major bummer. Especially now that the only option to avoid that is to go outside and do something else. Makes it hard to get excited about magic

[@JayoticMTG]

That may be the way you engage with the game, but I don’t think the vast majority of players engage in the same way. If you’re playing Magic as a game, enjoyable gameplay probably takes precedence over cool art and lore. That’s not to invalidate your feelings, it’s fair to be upset when the thing you like the most about the game changes.

[@TheEmilyw123456]

​@@JayoticMTGthis is only true to a point. If the next set has no art or lore and every card name is "removal spell 2" "artifact 12" and "creature 17" with no art except a way to distinguish them from eachother nobody would play it. Even the most comitted spike wouldnt play it, Even it it was the most perfectly balanced and interesting gameplay they ever released. The art and theme of the game is inherent to magic and things like SpongeBob and Spiderman are so far outside of that theme it is going to cause a feeling of things just not belonging.

[@ShadowMage223]

The line for most is probably just fantasy - I wouldn't play blank pieces of paper with rules text but I am cool with lotr and final fantasy because they're, well, fantasy. Marvel rubs me the wrong way in the same way that MLP and Walking Dead do.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@ShadowMage223we've already had in universe cyber punk

[@JayoticMTG]

@@TheEmilyw123456 Sure, no one would play a bunch of blank slates, but you could have a sci-fi version of Magic that would entice people based on the aesthetics of that genre. Again, if you only engage in the sci-fi art and not the characters and worlds, you’re more of a sci-fi fan than a Magic fan.

[@Partyboatbrando]

I think Crim fell asleep for like 20 minutes in the middle of the pod

[@RyanEglitis]

Shoutout to the scryfall search term: -stamp:triangle Filters out all the fake cards.

[@TheStalk]

UB in standard was expected, now... 6 sets in standard a year is absolutely crazy. People are already complaining about too much product and they are just doubling down on overcrowding the market. This doesn't sit very well with me.

[@ilyafoskin]

21:00 To answer your question, I’m quitting. There’s just not a game for me here anymore. I started playing Magic for Magic IP and I haven’t touched Marvel Snap because I have no interest in playing a card game with that IP. The same for all these other IPs. WotC hasn’t given me any other option now but to quit and find another TCG that respects its own IP enough to not taint its card pool. Right now I’m thinking Digimon and although it has some problems, I can play it and probably enjoy it but I’m not completely happy that I have to do this. WotC spent the last 4 years courting people who had no interest in picking up Magic on its own merit. Now they have a player base more interesting in the novelty of seeing their favourite tv and game characters in card form. Why didn’t WotC just make a new IP mashup TCG completely separate from Magic for this audience?

[@SWAT6809]

If you enjoy 1v1, I wholeheartedly can recommend Flesh and Blood. Its really good.

[@ilyafoskin]

@@SWAT6809 There isn’t really a Flesh & Blood scene here in Ireland. I live in the capital city and there’s a single pod of guys who play it in the game store. The store tried to have a tournament but like 4 people entered and I haven’t seen any tournaments announced since. I would give it a try otherwise. Numbers in the Digimon scene are at least in the couple dozen here, rivalling Lorcana but I would go Digimon over Lorcana every time. Yugioh is the best alternative here for numbers but it’s also so powercrept that I don’t want to mess with it and I used to play Yugioh until 2013.

[@SWAT6809]

@@ilyafoskin If you want to casually try it with friends, try commoner. Its the pauper equivalent and most decks run below 10 bucks, which makes it rather easy for people to jump in and have fun. I got 6 decks laying around and it scratches the 1v1 itch

[@BootiSwet]

@@ilyafoskin FAB is growing, but you're right, the player base is still pretty small. The game is fantastic though, If you ever feel like it go talk to those players and I bet you they will welcome you with open arms. The FAB community is ridiculously chill compared to the competitive MTG scene.

[@Erribell]

Im astounded by 2/3 of opinions on this podcast.

[@Feelosopher__]

It probably reflects the player base well, though.

[@midnalight6419]

I was gearing up to buy some foundations and get some friends into standard if I could, since I play and really enjoy the format. And now everyone in my lgs is no longer interested in standard.

[@king.eternal5980]

Yeah I was also planning to try getting back into standard with foundations. Even bring some friends back with me. But we already don't play UB in our EDH pod. I can't imagine any of us will want to invest in standard now 🤷 Not mad though. Glad they announced it before I bought in.

[@JStack]

Same. I live in a major city and we couldn’t get a 8 person pod for the first time last week. Granted only go monthly so could be oddity, but was jarring

[@Feelosopher__]

I’m more interested in standard than ever after 6 years of playing Magic lol

[@TheEvolver311]

No one has ever cared about Standard outside of the fact it's the premier competitive format.

[@king.eternal5980]

@@TheEvolver311 I mean.. maybe now? Idk. I fell off standard when coldsnap cycled. Shards came out I think. Couldn't justify how much I spent with a new baby. But I loved 60 card since I first held the cards back in Urzas.. for the last couple years I kept looking for a point that I was excited to get back in..

[@Cosminen]

Universes beyond stuff in standard. This is the last nail in the coffin. They had great IP, great worlds, great characters, and now it will just be .... I dont even know what....

[@Feelosopher__]

Lmao they had alright IP, interesting worlds, and mid or below mid characters. And they still have those, just a few less. Now, it’s better IP, interesting worlds, iconic characters. Let’s stop pretending the Magic IP and story is strong, or much more than a shell to support cool set mechanics.

[@sreyn237]

Once again Richard's complete and blind faith in Big Wotc is just wild.

[@MetalCoreHog131]

He’s a business owner who values money above all else, honestly not surprised

[@maxwellsanger8569]

I saw ya'll the 1st day in the pro play area of all places. I regret not saying hi and how much i appreciate all the hard work you guys put in for the content. Keep it up, ya'll are fantastic.

[@corymachlan6177]

6 sets a year is way too much. Smh. The sets will have to be absolute bangers out of the gate because there will be no ability to build hype/ anticipation. It's going to be bad for the game. On the plus side it should build value in sealed because far fewer boxes will be cracked of each set.

[@Will_Morand]

They said outside IPs would be harmful to Magic. Now we have Universe Beyond. They said Secret Lairs would be only reprints. Then we got the Walking Dead lair. They said Universe Beyond would never come to Standard. They’ve walked that back. They claim that there won’t be more Universe Beyond sets than in-universe sets. I don’t trust WotC to not walk this back as well. WotC is clearly all in on UB, and that’s removing the identity of Magic, which I can only see as a bad thing. WotC seems to want to kill Magic as an IP in favor of just a set of game mechanics. It’s just gonna be Western Weiss Schwarz.

[@imaginarymatter]

Players collectively don't care about the IP. So why should Wizards?

[@ammonaustin9081]

​@@imaginarymatter Mtg sales are beginning to decline so obviously the players do care about the story, or at least the aesthetic. Feeding the casual who's interested in xxx IP is a short term burst gimmick. Because your entrenched player base that spends $1000+ on MtG on the regular basis are quitting.

[@LookADistarction]

I’ve been playing on and off since 2014. What is the identity of Magic? Also would treating each UB as another plane that the revolving cast of characters visit make things better or worse? Would Kellan mounting a Chocobo to smack Liliana feel less weird as a board state if it was depicted like that in card art or flavor text?

[@_Ve_98]

@@ammonaustin9081 Many were already burned out from modern and Standard/Pioneer were the the last few things they could turn to. Now, even that is being warped.

[@QuietlyHere666]

​@@imaginarymatter so channels and audiences of channels such as the lorebrarians, spice8rack and magic arcanum just don't exist to you huh?

[@afisher6970]

This is what happens when accountants take over a company. They need to make more money, year over year for profits and bonuses. They don't care about 4/5 years from now, they only care about the bottom line now. So my game, which I have been playing for 30 years, is done. I am saddened by the news, but also relieved. I can keep my fond memories and all the amazing relationships MTG has brought me, and that is enough. We have always had the running joke that Magic is dying, we jested and laughter at Wotc's crazy ideas, but it is no longer a joke. If you play now, keep meeting that great people. Build friendships. Have road trips. You will remember them one day, and think back to your breaking point. Take care, community. My Peter Griffen attacks for 4.

[@sebastianmarkow6822]

Last straw I'm out. I keep my legacy cube and cedh decks and that's it. I really don't want a tabletop fortnite, I'm sure people will love it but this is just not for me.

[@floriandurr5015]

I dont care about the UB stuff, i just love the game

[@brendans1983]

Richard, i taught my son to play Mtg. Its definately a slow process, but nothing will bring you more joy than the time they pass their turn with some untapped lands, because you just presume its because they have ran out of things to do, and you attack them and they respond with a combat trick!! Seriously, one of the most memorable moments of my life! Was the best 🥳

[@RajivAyyagari]

Seth's reaction during this entire podcast is this 😬 lmao

[@DeathAndCatmix]

I know it’s hard for yall to be in-person for these, buts it’s a million times better like this.

[@KebbieG]

Some people are mad because they left formats where Universes Beyond was legal to Standard and Pioneer because Wizards promised these formats wouldn't be touched. Now after investing a lot of money into Pioneer they walk it back and throw it in our faces. This unprofessional behavior by Wizards lying to their player base to milk our money.

[@CameraColossus]

The argument of "where did all the standard players come from?" is just ridiculous. Standard is the forefront of Magic. Every card legal in standard becomes legal in all other formats so it affects every player. This is turning the entire game into a joke that appeals to "everyone" but is truly special to no one. I will never understand why people were ok with polluting the game with brand integration simply because they liked the IP. This will kill Magic because Magic wont be Magic anymore when this goes into effect

[@ninjivitis]

Magic is now a ruleset-- it's not an IP of its own. I think this situation is pretty similar to LEGO, where the most popular products are now crossovers rather than original sets.

[@imaginarymatter]

That's a great comparison. It's why I think Magic will be fine. LEGO is still recognizably LEGO even though I have Thor in my Hogwarts Lego castle fighting the TNMT.

[@davidbridges2607]

Lego isn’t a multi-player game. This argument is ridiculous. Sure, maybe lego doesn’t make anything that isn’t a crossover in some way anymore and who cares. But you don’t have the option to “opt out” when all the formats of the game have become unrecognizable to what the game was when most people fell in love with it. You either grin and bear it or you stop playing.

[@DMG_MTG]

Magic was always a ruleset. The entire point of the game is jumping between different settings and experiencing them through the mtg rules.

[@mindhackz]

I mean you can use the same company. You don’t need to compare it to LEGO lol. They do the same thing with D&D. A property they own

[@lVideoWatcherl]

LEGO fundamentally was about building whatever you imagined or wanted it to be. One of mtg's pulls however was always the flavour and setting - do you think the game would be successful today if the first set was a mixup of sci-fi, fantasy, bronze-age historicism, mysticism and modern-day sitcom flavour? I for one don't believe that. By destroying their own game's identity, they are destroying one of the major pulls for it. Sure, they might get fans of the other franchises in - but why should those fans _stay,_ when there is nothing appealing to the game itself, and it just continues to sell out to other franchises?

[@yarrrthekraken]

Magic isn’t changing. It’s literally ending. The ruleset will remain but the Magic universe is clearly on the way out. Between the UB coming to standard and standard having six sets per year, I’m finally out. I’ll keep a commander deck, but I’m selling my cards and deleting arena. I’m heartbroken over these changes. The game just isn’t for me anymore-and I’ve been playing for a decade.

[@voxrer]

Magic has become the Funko Pop of card games, no longer an identity. Just an IP on top of another

[@Goldy01]

Funko Pops are insanely popular, unlike magic. What's your point?

[@codytx2]

Incoming Aftermath sized UB sets for IPs that can't fill out a normal sized standard set.

[@danielsnyder6159]

I think sales data an awful thing to look at to see “what people want”. We always here “vote with your wallet” but if you don’t buy the sets you disagree with, you’re likely not going to have some of the important cards for whatever format you’re playing. It works for commander because the card pool is huge enough to avoid the sets you hate and it’s casual so being “top tier” isn’t what’s important. If the best decks in standard use cards from the hated sets, you’re going to have to dip into those sets to stay relevant in standard. My other concern is that we’re starting off the first year of universes beyond standard with 2 banger IPs (I’m not a huge marvel fan and don’t want it in magic but won’t deny that it’s gonna sell amazing) in marvel and FF, which is going to 100% guarantee the illusion of success in terms of how well received the whole concept is. What are these IPs going to look like in a few years if they’re doing 3 tentpole release UB sets per year? I’m struggling to think of many hard hitters other than Star Wars (also don’t want that in standard although I do love Star Wars). I’m sure there’s a handful of good ones but most of them aren’t going to fit into the fantasy genre as well as LOTR did and FF will. And I just don’t want 6 standard sets a year either. I’m beyond thrilled with how foundations is looking - haven’t felt so freakin hyped to see some familiar reprints in forever and it just feels so downright MTG I love it. That plus wotc attempting to push Standard back to the top had me so excited since I’ve really lost the ability to play paper standard in my area since Covid washed away the last good period of standard being popular. Now I’m back to being concerned and upset. Worst part is seeing how this was going to go down years ahead of time, from the moment commander shot up in popularity everything started being geared towards it - secret Lairs and UB were so successful because of EDH popularity. IMO Seth looks like I feel - wanting to remain positive and optimistic but having that gut feeling that this is gonna be bad. I just hope that if things aren’t being received well regardless of sales they will take a course correction and not drag it out longer than necessary. 😢 I just wanna play the game I love with out it being so incredibly saturated with products - it’s like “IP advertising the game”. Part of the MTG greatness has always been the imagination and artwork, creating new planes, filling them with characters and wildlife, unique terrain etc. Now we get sets where all of this is known and boring because we’ve seen it 1000 times already…slap Ironman art on a card and ship it. 😞 This decade really blows. Oh and just push lorwyn back until we’ve stopped this garbage UB stuff, I want so badly to revist that beautiful place but I REALLY don’t want it to be mixed in with cartoon characters and marvel superheroes. 😓 Please don’t make me hate MTG wotc, PLEASE!!! 🙏

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Voting with your wallet has always been bullshit, it's like telling people you can vote Yes as many times as you want, or you can abstain from voting at all, and that's your options and we'll tally the votes at the end.

[@jicarras123456]

We just need to accept, the MtG we grew up loving is no more. And it's a good thing, we can now move on to better hobbies.

[@supachigga]

Preach it brother. I switched to board games back when the walking dead cards were announced. Best decision of my hobby life. So many fantastic board games that most magic players have never even heard of

[@IonFONE]

Super secret take: Foundations will exist because in 4 years, most everything else that's legal in standard will be from Universes Beyond. And to sell the cards too of course. Most core sets don't usually do that well though, at least historically. This might be an exception given the recent spoilers, but I imagine most all the cards will eventually normalize to a reasonable price compared to other sets. Seriously though, when one of the MTG content panels lightly glossed over how much upkeep, effort, and cost it is to handle lore and stories for each in universe set, I facepalmed a little. It felt like a warning of what's to come: sets like Foundations where writing staff is less necessary or a more efficient use of them, alongside Universes Beyond sets, where the lore already exists and no writing is needed. As a former project manager, it just screams cost cutting and a better ROI, despite spitting in the playbase's face. Every year we see WotC/Hasbro make promises, then break them a few years later. This will be no exception to that expectation.

[@palwatcher6903]

leaving this reply here...I have a feeling you're onto something. See you guys in 4 years

[@adameschete9165]

I thought it would exist because they are going to print the cards and then sell them to the players…

[@GravityB2]

it's disingenuous to say "the fans want UB" by looking at sales numbers. Marvel set will sell well because Marvel is popular and has a ton of collectors, not because Magic fans inherently love Marvel. Not everyone wants to engage with watered down IP.

[@JayoticMTG]

I think the only disingenuous part of that phrase is “fans”. General consumers will pick up the product even if it doesn’t appeal to enfranchised Magic players, and that’s Hasbro’s priority at the moment.

[@ShadowMage223]

But many magic fans do - just look at the goldfish crew who are very excited for marvel (even if I'm not). But for me I don't care for the marvel flavor in the same way I don't care for the OTJ or DSK flavor.

[@GravityB2]

@@JayoticMTG I mean, I would even argue "want" is a bit disingenuous. They made the easy calculation that because Marvel and FF are massive brands known for dedicated fans that the sets will sell. But also, you could be in the tissue paper business and make a higher profit by slapping Spiderman on your box- all because of its branding and the fanaticism it brings, but it doesn't mean you would say Marvel fans "want" the tissue paper. It's just a shame because it's possible to be a business and make a good profit while also maintaining an original branding and not selling out

[@Rakkoonn]

That might be what they think is necessary. Standard is not as popular anymore in paper. EDH is, but EDH players don't need to buy the new set. Since magic players don't need to buy the new set, they get non players to do it.

[@TheEvolver311]

UB could be a way for Magic to gain the affordability of Pokémon. Pokemon is cheap for competitive play exactly because it has massive casuals who buy the product for chase cards and dump the extra on the secondary market.

[@Pug8]

Richard understands they are making Magic into Funko pop a lazy soul less IP shell like all other Hasbro games.

[@king.eternal5980]

If we think competitive magic is dead now, just wait til UB is meta :(

[@VidZero]

The question is can you still like Magic if you hate the Magic cards?

[@thegreatmaximilian]

I love Pioneer and it felt like a Magic Safe Haven. I hate the fact that I have to play with Spiderman in the future. I'm just sad. If I want to play a crossover game I play Smash Bros. This sucks.

[@djkatsuo]

Richard is so right. When they run the numbers. You’ll compare marvel to aethedrift and the UB will outsell dramatically. Magic will be the game mechanics only. I see flesh and blood or possibly a future tcg to come to grab those players. The financial impact of the massive amount of standard sets will insane

[@MIKAEL212345]

My worry is that is that there simply aren't a million different IPs that are going to be warhammer 40k or LoTR tier. They will run out of monster IPs like that. And when they do, they will need to go back to regular magic IP sets, but now there are only a few past sets of magic IP, so the story and IP is going to be thematically dead.

[@TheEvolver311]

The Magic IP has always sucked

[@Crushanator1]

Right, what's going to happen in 5 or 10 years when all the big IPs have had their sets? They'd have to pivot back to their own IP, and no one will care, and the sets will sell like trash to the players who only bought into their one IP set

[@MIKAEL212345]

@@Crushanator1 Exactly. The new audience they are cultivating is going to leave when they start focusing on Magic IP again. Sure, Richard is reporting that a lot of people are saying "I joined in the past few years because of X IP, but then I got into Magic as a whole", but that only works because "Magic as a whole" even exists. Less people will convert to true mtg fans.

[@TheEvolver311]

@@Crushanator1 no one cares about the Magic IP it's never gotten over except with a very small segment of players.

[@brendans1983]

​@@TheEvolver311 the Bolas arc was one of the best, long-developing stories of modern fantasy. A whole plane created purely to be massacred so as to create an undead army to invade another plane 3 years later? Epic. Inserting the Planar Bridge into a Planeswalker, in 2017, so they could take the Immortal Sun from Ixalan to Ravnica to prevent anyone leaving the Ravnica slaughter, in 2019? Epic. I know your comment is just bait but I had to shut you down.

[@BootiSwet]

Real talk, Flesh and Blood is definitely the game if you were a tournament grinder back in the day. I sold off most of my magic collection back in February, and now all I have are two commander decks that have basically been powercrept out of relevance in less than a year.

[@babatazyah]

It seems to me that they decided to make them Standard legal after the UB sets were already in the pipeline and didn't want to(or contractually couldn't) push them back. It's possible and maybe likely that 6 standard sets a year is not the long-term norm beyond 2026.

[@ajaxender12]

They will not be Standard power level. *They will not be Standard power level.* They. Will. Not. Be. Standard. Power. Level. This will be power sprint, not creep. Why? To sell packs, of course, but more so because they want these cards playable *everywhere* - their own words! You really think the 'higher' power formats are safe? Are they ever safe, even before this announcement? You really think we've seen the last One Ring? Lol. Magic already has a dissonance between the idea of what the game is portraying, and how it actually plays. Universes Beyond exacerbates this to a high degree, which is why it is so polarising. It makes clear that mechanically, it doesn't matter what the theming is as long as it plays well, stripping away the veil. Except, why be involved with it - why be involved with anything - if the themes and ideas portrayed don't really matter? We do so in our daily lives because, typically, we are paid or rewarded for doing so; certainly (or hopefully) not paying to be involved with something otherwise meaningless to us. And that then comes to the real danger of this - the community. It is, ultimately, community that matters for this or any hobby. That's where the deepest meaning is found. And it's the people that get deeply attached to the community that develop and maintain it. 'Tourists' may buy products but they do not develop and maintain communities. That is the problem they face here. They can sell the product all they want, in any store they want, but the LGS concept matters more than they seem to think and without that public presence of the *game*, not merely the product, the game will start to fade. Without the game there is no product. They've pushed the boundaries of this before and they best hope this doesn't push too far.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

Yeah there will be almost 6000 cards in Standard. That's even larger than Extended (for boomers who remember that format). And there isn't a smaller feeder format that WotC have to consider; the lowest power level set will now be approximately as large as Pioneer when Pioneer was brand new. WotC will need to print cards powerful enough to make a splash in this new large format. Not to mention the added incentives of making sure UB sets are seen as smash hits, tempting the power needle upward. Standard will look more and more like Modern but with worse lands.

[@DiabolicTutor_]

It comes to no surprise that UB sets and releases sold well when you have a popular IP attached, induce FOMO and more importantly, especially with the LotR releases, put a bunch of serialized lottery cards in them. Bloomburrow on the other hand sold well without any of that, because it was a set that felt like a “real” Magic set. And that is a problem with recent In-Universe sets (MKM, OTJ and DSK), because they come across as just gimmicky. Sets that felt more like an UB release, but without an attached IP. And that trend will most likely continue next year with the Tarkir release being probably the only standard set that feels like a “real” Magic release, compared to 'Vroom vroom drift' (DFT) and 'Pew pew Spaceships' (EOE). Not only are we getting less of a focus on In-Universe sets, but most of the ones we get don't feel like ones and on top we are getting swamped with outside IPs. The idea of UB products was never the issue, I liked the idea of UB-Secret Lairs and -Commander decks (except for mechanically unique cards that don't get in-universe reprints), but to push aside what made MTG great, the Magic universe, fucking sucks.

[@dericplummer9272]

I get the race set feeling gimmicky but I am actually hyped for Edge of Eternities the art seems nuts and I does what neon dynasty did which is feel sci Fi yet still fit in Magic world.

[@TheTexasDice]

This, so many original Magic sets feel like dumpster-dive garbage. Neo Kamigawa and New Capenna look like they're from the Shadowrun TTRPG rule book, not magic the gathering. And Duskmorne looks like complete trash whenever a human holding an actual electronic device is on screen.

[@nerocapro4319]

@@DiabolicTutor_ vroom vroom drift is just hasbro hotwheels no?

[@DiabolicTutor_]

@@nerocapro4319 Edge of Eternities if you look very cynically at it. Maybe it will be flavour full and fit into Magic, but the first thing I saw of it was Chandra doing the Akira Slide.

[@damiend.7392]

This whole sequence of events is an excellent allegory for every other facet of American culture.

[@TheUnrulyDog]

I think Sam’s (Rhystic Studies) article articulated how I feel super well, particularly when he talks about how Pokémon is successful without losing any of the game’s dignity. I also am with Richard where I won’t be buying any UB product but will get whatever singles I need to keep up with the meta.

[@MetaLibanez1]

I'm so stoked for final fantasy and I'm already preparing financially to spend way too much on that set. I play commander in paper and play standard on mtg arena and I'm not bothered by UB being standard legal. To Crim's point, I was not excited in the slightest for Bloomburrow but there are some great cards and I use them regularly. Duskmourn has been my favourite standard set to play/draft in the last 18 months. I couldn't give a shit if the creature I'm swinging with is a little mouse or squirrel or a scary demon. I enjoy the gameplay of magic, not just the artwork. I absolutely love the reflection artwork for cards like razorhead needlekin but I also absolutely love the artwork for the anime animal style planeswalkers. It's sad that some people feel so strongly about it that they would quit the game over UB being standard legal. But realistically the UB stuff will bring in more players to the game than it will cause to leave. Even if they are short term players/collectors. And the overall sale of the product is the only thing that matters to wotc/hasbro - not the player retention. Unfortunately that's the nature of the business.