UNRESOLVED SHOW MYSTERIES (Padan Fain, the Dagger, Mat, Mordeth, Mashadar, and More!)

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Which mysteries would you like me to cover next?

[@andrewberenson5717]

What happens to the Horn after the Heroes of the Horn leave. One of them took the Horn from Mat and made it disappear. Does it magically go back to Fal Dara? Or does some street urchin pick it up - one who has big ears and a ugly face? Hi Olver.

[@rainbowsprinklez]

How about the mystery of how Rand was shielded by one person, but the episode before Logain told Rand with the power he possesses, skill doesn't matter. And I know Rand is inexperienced at this point. Here's one that also can't be blamed on Barney. Bela wasn't allowed in the Ways cause she'd not survive. But next season Liandrin took the girls through the Ways carrying them on horseback. Mysterious...

[@UnravelingthePattern]

@@andrewberenson5717 This is a really good one.

[@UnravelingthePattern]

@@rainbowsprinklez I'll add these ideas to my list!

[@bozimsaho5590]

You know the one I want. Eggy v Ishy 🤷

[@FloydIsMySon]

my thoughts on changes to lore/narrative from the books is less about "improving" things and more about limitations of the medium. They only have so much time and showrunners need to rework details so they can tell the heart of the story the best they can with as few episodes as they're afforded. plus sometimes stories told in a book don't always land the same way onscreen so they rewrite things to get the emotional/narrative impact at the cost of lore/details. awesome video and love your channel, thanks!

[@TheToxicScott]

HOW DARE YOU SPEAK SENSE! Yeah, a fight in the sky would be cool but that sh*t's expensive. There are all sorts of moving parts in a production that sometimes the writers need to go in a direction that maybe they don't even want but they don't have much of a choice.

[@purpleajah7425]

I think the show writers have a plan A, a plan B, and probably even a plan C for a lot of these things (without even accounting for recasting issues). They set up a lot of things in a way that wouldn't mean anything to a show watcher, so it wouldn't be unsatisfying if they didn't end up being able to do anything with it, but still leaving the door open in case they can. A good example of that is Lan not mentioning Mordeth in Shadar Logoth, but we still hear Fain's whistle and we still get Mashadar, so there's space to develop Mordeth later without it coming out of the blue. But they're also aware that they might not get to do it, so they made sure they still told the story of Shadar Logoth in a way that makes sense on its own. So i think in a lot of cases, the answer on "will they explain this or not?" Is "they've set themselves up to be able to, but they're also prepared to simplify it if they can't "

[@Eriths-Honey-Cakes]

Great video as always. Totally agree about Fain’s mysteries. I was theorizing about a cold open where we see Fain get “distilled” , with cut scenes explaining his exploits in S1&S2. Maybe a forsaken calling him a dog, so we feel sorry for him. Then S3 is him getting the dagger back and breaking free of his collar, by becoming the mordeth/fain mashup. I was picturing Fain in Tanchico with Mat, the girls and the Palace Whitecloaks. But I really like your placement of him with Perrin’s story and corruption of Dane. They could make Fain the Slayer and really tie him to Perrin and the wolves. Or they could play up the Loki / chaos aspects and pair him with Mat. Either would be good. But if they aren’t going to do something with him, then I hope they just drop the character to spend time on other things. Either do him well, or stop. (Mini rant over) Thx for such great ideas.❤

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Great thoughts! I don't love the idea of replacing Slayer with Fain, but it would work really well.

[@Sendarya]

This needs more views! Fantastic deep dive into one of the most interesting and mysterious characters.

[@PsyrenXY]

In addition to Ogier being affected by the dagger differently, another option for the dagger not killing Loial is that Fain simply didn't want it to. He appears to be able to exert considerable control over the dagger, such as when he cut himself with it in the book and was no more harmed by it than if it were a letter opener. That was likely due to his evil nature matching that of the dagger, but it could also be due to him being able to suppress its lethality. This version of Fain is a lot saner than his book counterpart, which would logically give him more control over his abilities.

[@carolbriscoe9337]

Good idea. Since S3 has completed filming and editing, maybe Rafe can work this idea into S4. If there is another season

[@Planofatak]

The Dark One could tempt me to the Shadow with a copy of the scripts for episodes 7 and 8 as they were before they shut down - I'd love to know exactly what they originally intended so much

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Haha, same. I'll swear oaths and everything!

[@maywecomein]

Ah, so you think in S1E6, there was a scene where Mat nicks the dagger from Moiraine/Lan, and everyone ends up dismayed when this ends up giving Fain the chance to get it back in Fal Dara? That’d also build up trickster-Mat as well. I feel the show hasn’t really succeeded in conveying what a darkfriend is, other than a henchperson. The metaphysics of the oath, the binding to the DO (and forsaken), etc. Of course they could. And probably should. But externalizing all that stuff is a challenge, and the payoff is largely in understanding the world, rather than key plot points (I am unwilling to describe Fain’s arc in the last two books as “key plot” 😅)

[@Siansonea]

I definitely think that the dagger isn't as immediately lethal in the show as it was in the books. Don't forget that Rand was stabbed with it and field-Healed by Elayne, who is still a novice in the White Tower. If any Aes Sedai got to Loial within a reasonable time frame, they would have been able to Heal him of the dagger's lethality, and every Aes Sedai would make Healing a Builder a priority. I also think his Ogier alien-ness makes the dagger's effects less potent. I don't think it's even a 'goodness' thing, but a simple difference in composition. If I'm remembering right, Ogier don't have any connection at all to Tel'aran'rhiod, and Stedding don't have a connection to T'a'r or the True Source. So the two main ways that humans are affected by supernatural phenomena are closed to Ogier.

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Great thoughts Siansonea. I didn't think about how it's "slower" than in the books as evidenced by Rand's stabbing. Do you think Rand will get a second wound on top of the current one, like in the books?

[@siansoneashenanigans]

@@UnravelingthePattern I doubt they'll do a second wound, that would probably diminish the effect of the first wound and might feel repetitive without a clear story payoff.

[@UnravelingthePattern]

@@siansoneashenanigans FULL BOOK SPOILERS AHEAD: I mean, if they manage to get to the cleansing, it feels like a VERY important thing to set up to me; but I suppose they can figure out a way to explain the cleansing without pitting Mashadar and the Taint against each other. I guess I always felt that Rand's double wound was the clue that led to the cleansing, so I feel like it's super important. So far the show doesn't seem to want to get too deep into those weeds though.

[@siansoneashenanigans]

@@UnravelingthePattern yeah, I think it comes down to 'how would we explain this and show what's happening without a bunch of dense exposition?' I think they'll just streamline the whole thing for clarity.

[@saabrams1987]

Lauren, you put out such thoughtful and beautifully produced content. It is unmatched. Thank you for your dedication so that we can enjoy this!

[@WarriorOfTheAltaii]

My theory for the dagger is that Lan and Moiraine took it to the tower. Via a dream Ishy gave instructions to Liandrin to give the dagger to Padan Fain. Amber from the The Road To Tar Valon, did an interview with the production designer who mentioned that the dagger has different properties from the one in the books. I think Moiraine broke the physical connection between Mat and the dagger but not the mental one. In Padan Fain’s hands the dagger wasn’t doing the devastating wounds, it was simply a tool to tempt Mat with it. When Mat was presented with the dagger , the connection kicked in in some weird way, the dagger “sensed” Mat and started producing its magic. As for Padan Fain moving within the Ways, probably he has got some extra perks from the Dark or might have merged with Mashadar/ Mordeth long before he got into the Two Rivers.

[@RobChristianson]

Great video! I’m hopeful they give Padan Fain more of an important arc than Pointless Side Creeper. I really like your pitch of flashes of backstory while torturing a Fade. Great work! (PS: I was hoping for some old Robert Stack clips based on your “Unresolved Mysteries” title…)

[@sweenej5]

Great work and beautifully assembled as always. 1) I hope we have time to explore Paden Fain in Season Three. I think you are right, a good cold open in the Whitecloaks camp is a fine way to clean up some of that. 2) However we don't need a complete explanation for all of the Fain stuff. For non-readers, they just need to know that there is something more to him - he's more than a darkfriend BUT we don't want to entangle that with the Forsaken. So having him as a general corrupting influence everywhere (a Wormtongue if you will) is a fine role for now. 3) I suspect Mat will lose the danger again this season and that we will see a little more of how waygates work.

[@jackipenny9919]

Love your content, man! I'm getting so peeked for the next season! More Matt! More Perrin!

[@FloydIsMySon]

if they took the dagger to Tar Valon (which i think makes the most sense), maybe Leandrin stole it and passed it off to Fain??

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Good theory!

[@rapunzl347]

That’s my Headcanon for it.

[@FloydIsMySon]

@ I’m a big fan of Occam’s Razor haha

[@richardwillems9705]

Would love for them to fill in the gaps especially the Dagger and Paden Fain's corruption

[@OlversEars]

Very nice Lauren. Not so much a mystery, but I'm hoping Fain is shown having his corrupting influence on other important characters as the seasons progress.

[@salya_al_onir]

Since E102 aired, it has been my head canon that a merged Fain/Mordeth is who leads Mat to the dagger. I will continue to believe it until the show gives another explanation. Btw, loved the use of the Holy Grail clip for S1 to S2 Uno 😆

[@carolbriscoe9337]

Thanks, Lauren, for addressing the same subjects that bothered me . I'm afraid that due to time restrictions, these questions will never be addressed. The ripples of Barney's departure are only now ebbing in S3.

[@iglika.a]

I watch all your videos and I am very grateful for your time and effort, as well as for the clear diction and concise narration. Your mini rant 14:53 completely resonates with me, and as for the ideas for improvement, I also have my 5 cents: fire Rafe Judkins from the production as soon as possible.

[@andrewberenson5717]

Happy New Year Lauren.

[@ryadinstormblessed8308]

What's frustrating is that the majority of the "mysteries" are not mysteries about "what really happened there" or "who dunnit?" They're mysteries of "why in the Light did the show runners choose to change that part of the lore?" I'm not saying that just to be a "bookcloak". I'm enjoying the show, especially as it progresses, and I'm willing to give them some time to show why they made the choices they did, but some of those choices just seem like they wanted to be creative and do things their own way and then realized too late that it was messing up some element of the story. Like "oh, let's make the One Power the only way to enter and exit The Ways." Um, okay, and then how are Perrin and Loial supposed to use them later on? Or is that another plot that gets dropped in the show? And even if they drop that plot line, and never allow anyone to use The Ways without Channeling in the show, that still goes against the very purpose of The Ways when they were originally created thousands of years earlier: as a safe and convenient means for the Ogier to travel between the Stedding (and Ogier certainly don't have access to the One Power, or is that being changed too?).

[@gokbay3057]

I don't think it justifies the show change as they should have just kept the leaf key but I suppose one explanation could be that using the Power is simply an additional means of accessing the Ways rather than the only and that the keys would still exist for non-Channelers to use (like we see in Fain's hand).

[@ryadinstormblessed8308]

@gokbay3057 Agreed. The fact that they deleted the scene with Fain holding the leaf is odd. Hopefully they will show it later in the way he suggests in this video. But even if they do, it still wouldn't make up for the fact that Loial should have been the first to know about and suggest that.

[@benbutler9282]

Finntastic stuff. Thanks Lauren

[@LeeTurnock-zy2dg]

Fain is another example of the pitfalls of having different writers working on the same character in different episodes. The way they handled his interaction with the ways and his acquisition of the dagger speaks volumes. I also believe they weren't fully onboard with the horn storyline so there was no clear approach to Fain thereafter. An unused pic of him holding the leaf doesn't help explain the law of the ways. It's an example of poor storyboarding.

[@stormsend4966]

Bonus points for the Kronk reference that was a good 1.

[@davidgregory7564]

Great video! Can’t wait for S3!

[@pal8h]

Just reread Book 4. Hope season 3 does it justice!

[@matthewmurdick]

Great thoughts and points Lauren, as usual. I see your solution as definitely working, but I unfortunately am one of those who feels skeptical that this easy fix will actually be done. I don't want to go so far as to call these complete "plotholes" just yet, since I've no idea how they might try to work some of this out in other ways, but am thinking the focus of this show has moved to just making a good season 3 and beyond. (Fingers crossed that if that is their intention, they get the chance to do so!)

[@Panyc333]

@@matthewmurdick Keys to Lost Matt?

[@matthewmurdick]

@@Panyc333 Yep!

[@Panyc333]

@ what’s up Matt? It’s Matt, formerly of the Smoke Hatch Podcast. Didn’t know you’re a Wheel of Time fan. Hope you’re doing well.

[@matthewmurdick]

@@Panyc333 Yay! I'm good! Thanks! Hope y'all are doing good as well!

[@Panyc333]

@ small world (web). I’m good man. Take care fam!

[@eaton4559]

You know what's really annoying all theses differences and plot holes could be solved if they had more then 8 episodes to tell the story Edit I feel like they could introduce the keys for the waygates by having only the ogier know about them and that they were sworn to secrecy by the male aes sedi who made the ways for them and the only reason loial tells Perrin is cuz of his Ta'Veren nature specially with Perrin cuz in the books people seem to say stuff they didn't mean to around Perrin

[@Panyc333]

Enjoyed this look back on where we are in the show.

[@andrewberenson5717]

Unfortunately, I think the show will treat Fain as a high ranking Darkfriend (but clearly subservient to the Chosen) and fully supportive of the Dark One. I do not think the show will delve into his posts he obtained from Mordeth. As much as I think the end of the series underutilized Fain, the show will underutilize him 10 times worse Based on Fain's character development during the first two seasons (or lack thereof), I hope the Perrin kills Fain in Season 3 as part of the Battle of Two Rivers. It is time to put show Fain out of his misery.

[@gokbay3057]

Hmmm... Yeah, that's probably the most likely way for the things to go in the show.

[@robertborgman]

Cover saidin/saidar next. It's the biggest mystery I feel. Such a big part of the book lore, and show watchers don't even know the basics of how it works, it's just "some sort of magic system that are a bit colored, but black for males for some reason".

[@OurFarmCSA]

I bet they leave that until they get into whichever Forsaken gets trapped by Lanfear into teaching Rand, it makes a nice counterpoint with teaching sequences for Egwene with the Wise Ones, and Nynaeve and Elayne in Salidar (ie I'm guessing that's best as an episode early in season 4). Pretty good 'coming of age' stuff in a character arc.

[@ricallerin]

Great idea on how they can tie up loose ends. Though sadly, I think they'll just move on.

[@MRVLBROs]

I have stopped by to drop a like and run. Chat on a scale of 1-10 How book spoilery is this video for someone who just started Book 3... Asking for a friend...

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Not very spoilery, though I do mention some minor things pertaining to Padan Fain and Perrin's arc in book 4 which will likely happen in Season 3, so I guess it just depends on how much you're trying to avoid before S3.

[@chaz9808]

There are a lot of wasted and rushed scenes in this show it’s unfortunate

[@richardcopeland1398]

i wonder if they tie loial not dieing to their singing somehow

[@robertborgman]

Padan Fain is one of those parts I feel they have screwed up in the show sofar. I really like the casting tho. Fains smile is so creepy. TBF I didnt like Sandersons Fain-arc in the books either. But it will be interesting to see how the story will evolve from here, hopefully just make progress and don't spend too much time ironing out Loial-stabbings and such, let that be just poor writing and move on. :-) I would hate to see the dagger replacing Mat's cool *redacted* weapon from the books tho!

[@mEmory______]

I dont think there is any rudk of the dagger replaving said weapon. I have no idea why you woukd think thats possible.

[@galaxyvita2045]

The main mysteries are when you will go back to "Wheel of Time Season 2 UNRAVELED" and make the video's about the missing episodes.

[@gregus1032]

You ideas sound good, but then we won't have time to show case half an episode to non-plot driven characters like they tend to do every season.

[@TheToxicScott]

I really hate fake out deaths and there were far too many in S1 for my liking. The only one I'm fine with is the dream Moraine mouth stabbing but the Uno & Loial ending was disappointing. I absolutely understand the clusterf*ck caused by the pandemic and the Mat recasting but having Uno (who show viewers only have no connection to) appearing to be dead on the ground and Loial being stabbed as a cliffhanger and then giving no explantion in S2E1 is lame. Pretty sure it'll never get explained, just forget and move on. It could've easily been fixed by Uno and Loial being with Perrin and maybe have Uno take out all the baddies to show his prowess with a sword and have Perrin and Loial keep him from attacking Fain. Loial could info dump about the dagger and why letting him go is the best option at the time.

[@richardleatherman193]

Sadly, I think they will memory-hole this stuff and move on.

[@rainbowsprinklez]

My big thing, is Rafe said the first 20 minutes of episode 1 of season 3 are "bonkers." I have a sinking feeling that they are trying to satiate us with action. Action does not equal quality. We are Wheel of Time fans. It feels like they are insulting us. We want quality and want justice done for this series we love.

[@sweenej5]

I agree that we want quality but I'm thinking the start of Season 3 is going to accomplish alot all at once (BOOK SPOILERS HERE) . . . I think the Black Ajah will flee the tower for Tanchico, cutting a bloody swath in their wake, killing one of Alanna's warders, and undermining Siuan's tenuous grasp on the stole. Siuan sends Nynaeve and Elayne (with Mat/Min tagging along) to hunt the Black Ajah, sets up Alanna's dirty deed as she wallows in guilt, and allows Elaida to seem (gulp) reasonable when she shows up and starts demanding answers for what happened. Alot of plot in motion for the first part of the first episode. Finally, a burst of action with awesome special effects is not necessarily a bad thing. We've got to keep non-readers engaged and a kickass fight sequence at the start never hurts to hook folks who are less emotionally invested in the lore/characters.

[@rainbowsprinklez]

​@@sweenej5 I agree action is good for non-readers, but I care about the story. Based on what Sanderson said, this is trying to be more episodic, which is not a bad thing. But when you have different writers for each couple of episodes, plot hole arise, and there have been plenty of plot holes. I agree that a kickass fight scene is a great way to start the season. I just hope that they stick the landing and finish the season out with equal greatness

[@sweenej5]

@@rainbowsprinklez I think most of the plot holes are coming from the frantic rewrites of S1E7 and E8, rather than inconsistent writers. That said, they struggle with the finales, and I'm hoping they break that streak and finish strong this season.

[@rainbowsprinklez]

@@sweenej5 You are wrong. Full stop. There are plot holes in season 2 that have nothing to do with Mat. I'm not a show hater. At all. I just wish for more.

[@sweenej5]

@@rainbowsprinklez I said most, not all - I agree there's some clunky moments in Season Two, but most of the stuff highlighted (especially in this video) are direct result of the last couple of eps in season one being hastily rewritten.

[@ljc6181]

Unsolved mysteries - how did they screw this up so badly?

[@UnravelingthePattern]

They should've hired you.

[@elijahsackville-glucksburg]

on a side note, I'm glad that Ishamael is dead because -- god, that actor was so damn dull and boring. The worst villain actor I've seen in years. Just utterly uncharismatic, thankfully Natasha O'Keefe came in as Lanfear, she gave the show so much flavor and depth.

[@UnravelingthePattern]

Wow, I respect your opinion, but I totally loved him as Ishy. I feel he brought a fresh take to the character to me that wasn't nearly as "diabolical" and "mustache twirling" as his book counterpart.

[@TheToxicScott]

I'd bet that Fares Fares isn't done with the show as that's not usually how acting gigs work although there have been a fair amount of recastings. I liked his portrayal as he wasn't an "evil" bad guy, he was calm and pragmatic about his actions and thought he was more of a cartoonish baddie in the books.

[@reasonablegentleman]

I would say the thing that the show has done better than the books is make the villains meaningful, and Fares Fares, Natasha Okeefe, and the actress playing Liandrin deserve a lot of the credit for that. The Foresaken and other darkfriends were so uninteresting in the books, but they are 10 times better in the show.

[@UnravelingthePattern]

@@reasonablegentleman I completely agree.