Using God to gaslight the oppressed - Caravan of Qur'anic Contemplation: Tadaburat #93

[@ZenIslam19]

MashAllah Brother. The tragedy of Gaza has caused me to reflect deeply on how these things happen and are permitted and where hypocrisy and bad ideas have corrupted things in many nations and across religious lines. May Allah end the crisis soon.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@ZenIslam19 Ameen!

[@TSS0Qk3n]

Could you talk about slavery and your understanding of ma Malakat Aymanukum in a future episode? It has bothered me for a long time that there's no outright prohibition of slavery in the Quran. I also don't think MMA refers to slave girls, but to anyone given an oath. An oath to marry, an oath to protect a child, etc

[@QuranicIslam]

Salaam ... sure. I actually have a couple of detailed posts on reddit which would probably be better than what i could do briefly on stream. See my reddit profile. I'll link them later (remind me if i don't) bc for some reason i can't from this computer. And sorry i didn't get back to you earlier, some comments don't appear unless i enter KZbin Studio

[@Shaima_Yacoub]

Salam , There's 9:55 and 85 as well where Allah punishes through اولادهم And then there's 30:41 .. where Allah says that the spread of fasaad has been allowed so that perhaps people will come back to him. These are two examples of other people causing suffering in the land with another objective attached to it. In terms of fitnah being equated with عذاب in 29:10 if it's understood as an example to deter specifically the believers from equating a trial from God ( brought about by their peoples actions) with the punishment from God on them.. then it doesn't necessarily negate the fitnah indeed being a punishment for the wrong doers. For the mumins it would be a trial.. for the wrong doers it could indeed be عذاب so that perhaps they may come back. I think we can get stuck when we think in terms of time. Time does not constrain Allah. If he knows the future .. then it's not far fetched to say that he knows whether or not certain people will sin.. there's so much that we don't know happening in the ghayb. If it is known that someone or a people will sin.. knowing exactly what will happen and how it will happen opens up another dimension. It doesn't take away from anyone's free will. But planning from Allah happens in ways we don't fully understand. How much planning goes into Being in the right place at the right time? A level of planning that we would never be able to understand. What we know for sure is that Allah is just and we will not be wronged a فتيل.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@Shaima_Yacoub Wealth & children are not a punishment though. Nor do those verses say God gave them wealth & children in order to punish them. But that God will cause them to suffer by them, well that's a result of their actions/attachment/treatment of their wealth & children. In other verses "your wealth & children are but a trial/fitna" (spouses too!) ... well, when someone has earned God's wrath & He knows they fail with them, He gives more/maintains them so they suffer more from them in the dunya Conversely, can anyone say Allah is punishing the Palestinians by their wealth & children? No. Yes I know that isn't where you were aiming with that btw For the fasad on land & sea ... again, I don't see that as being punishment. The fasad that has "appeared", ie can be seen, on the land & sea, is the result of human actions of ifsaad upon the land & sea. It comes back upon us. We will "taste" what we've done (sometimes literally - look at the % of plastic in the fish we eat) and it will hopefully make us turn back to seeing ourselves as stewards of the land & sea. It would also be affecting everyone; righteous people & not. I don't see how we could relate that to the Palistinan situation ... they aren't tasting the fasad of land & sea due to what they've done. They are tasting the fasad of land & sea done deliberately to harm them by the Israelis. That fasad will/might ultimately come back to haram them too Now, again, I know you've sort of taken this conversation away from that, and to just generally the idea that people might receive punishment/suffering in this life for their sins. Divine suffering/punishment. That maybe true. But I don't want to lose sight of where this started & what the stream is about; the gaslighting of the oppressed using that verse. That oppression by others is a punishment of God, and oppressors are here the "hand" of God. And the oppressed must change themselves first for God to "take that hand away".I don't think that's attainable at all. The Israelites for example were enslaved. They didn't change themselves first to be freed. In fact they were very stubborn. Though you can say it was a unique or Messenger related case. Still we have; { وَنُرِیۡدُ اَنۡ نَّمُنَّ عَلَی الَّذِیۡنَ اسۡتُضۡعِفُوۡا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ وَنَجۡعَلَہُمۡ اَئِمَّۃً وَّنَجۡعَلَہُمُ الۡوٰرِثِیۡنَ ۙ } [Surah Al-Qaṣaṣ: 5] You were saying that maybe if the Palistinans were more Quranic then God would help them out of this. But why should it be that way round? That they have to meet a "higher" bar to get help? If there is a threshold of piety one must attain before receiving Divine intervention, then I'd image it would be lowered for the oppressed. Not raised. God is more likely to *lower* the bar for the oppressed than raise it. That's much more in line with what we know of Him (like half the punishment for slaves women who commit zina). Though, yes we also have, again back to the Isralites, that sabr was a factor. { وَاَوۡرَثۡنَا الۡقَوۡمَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَانُوۡا یُسۡتَضۡعَفُوۡنَ مَشَارِقَ الۡاَرۡضِ وَمَغَارِبَہَا الَّتِیۡ بٰرَکۡنَا فِیۡہَا ؕ وَتَمَّتۡ کَلِمَتُ رَبِّکَ الۡحُسۡنٰی عَلٰی بَنِیۡۤ اِسۡرَآءِیۡلَ ۬ۙ بِمَا صَبَرُوۡا ؕ وَدَمَّرۡنَا مَا کَانَ یَصۡنَعُ فِرۡعَوۡنُ وَقَوۡمُہٗ وَمَا کَانُوۡا یَعۡرِشُوۡنَ } [Surah Al-Aʿrāf: 137] But again ... unique? This line of Ibrahim had a promise from God that had to be fulfilled ... تمت كلمة ربك Yusuf suffered for years too before being helped. Why didn't those dreams come to the King earlier? I understand that people get confused. Nut they are confused bc the human being is hastey. They want things to make sense & be resolved with God's actions in this world. But if everything were, what would be the point of the hereafter? During the stream you mentioned the promise of the nasr of Allah to the mu'mineen. I don't remember if I pushed back a little on that or not, but I honestly don't know if there is a standing promise to give victory to the mu'mineen. There's been so many things I previously accepted & assumed as obvious that I don't take anything like that as a given anymore. I know there's a promise to help the mu'mineen who are with a Messenger, he is there to change things for them after all, and hence call of 'Isa for Ansaar to Allah. But if they don't support, there's no promise. Anyway ... those are some thoughts for now

[@Shaima_Yacoub]

@@QuranicIslam let me try to simplify the complex issue because you're right, the main idea can get lost. The main idea here cannot be narrowed down to a specific circumstance/unique occurrence because were using the Quran as evidence. Its about general principles in the Quran that are holistically taken into account. Thats what will give us a firm grounding. firm roots We can substitute the Palestinians with the native Americans in the past, current state of the Sudanese, Ukrainians, Congolese, Syrians, early followers of Muhammad , early followers of Musa, Isa (after all why else are we taught about the latter and encouraged to benefit from them?).... In order to understand the verse in question (about changing the condition of a people) we look at general principles that God teaches us and how they would apply to our specific circumstances . The main issue is about people facing deep injustices at the hands of oppressors and how to make sense of it... on both sides, from the oppressed and the oppressor POV. You said it's not attainable at all to believe that God won't help the oppressed against tyrants until they change first... but it is attainable if they are facing this oppression because of what "their hands brought forth" from a Quranic perspective . It could also very well be that they are being harmed 'fillah' due to the fitnah of the people ... When Allah says "people will face suffering (from Allah) in this life so that they may come back"... There's clearly a chain of events being described in terms of actions from an individual, the x... Which causes a consequence (their suffering), the y... And an objective from God (encouragement to come back), the z. X+y hopefully equals z here be ithn illah. Hardships from Allah (y) befall an individual due to things they've done (x) WITH THE AIM of encouraging them to rectify (z) VS "God won't change the condition of a people until they change what is in them". For good or bad. Clearly these two principles are related! The issue with our discussion is the "y". Can it happen through the actions of sinners and their oppression or is Y only through sickness and loss and environmental types of suffering as you posit... Even X is in question because... what deeds specifically jump start this chain of events? You could even say z is in question. Because Is this encouragement to "come back" only for a certain class of people? .. are some people's xs and ys too far out that they are sealed in a bad state now with no hopes of coming back? The gaslighting of the oppressed topic is very much tied into these ideas we're discussing. Because it raises questions like what's fitnah what's khizy what's nasr, what's athaab in the dunya, whats the nature of a mumin/rejectors hardships, whats fasaad, what type of a3maal invite intervention (good or bad) from Allah.. all things that should be taken into account before passing judgement on this specific circumstance. so much nuance. On a side note .. the citizens of the whole world are all directly tied to and affected by the plight of the Palestinians in ways that have become more and more apparent. It's very possible that the Palestinians bar is in fact lowered.. home free or closer to a finish line of bliss in sha Allah for so many. But these occurrences directly impact us all and invite from us as well.. if we don't receive the events and deliver appropriately .. what then? Is calling out the evil of the oppressors necessary . Yes of course very necessary .. is self/societal introspection and acknowledging that God intervenes based on good or bad actions in THIS LIFE necessary too ... I believe very much Yes..crucial. Its also a form of calling out and identifying evil.. a trickier and sneakier kind though... but here, we would be directing our focus on areas that that are directly in our control. My point is that its necessary to vehemently do both things.. Whatever strategy we employ should be conducive to real positive change not stagnation... The good kind of change that Allah tells about that happens through his worldly interventions that do happen without a doubt. And in my view.. based on my own experiences and what Allah has taught me.. this is extremely important for success. Individual success that leads to collective success in sha Allah. Its taqwa in a nutshell. The peoples perception/ranking of evil is gonna differ from person to person, but, "who is "athlam" then someone who lies about Allah or rejects his signs"? Its a very deep question and might not necessarily match how the majority of people frame / contextualize their surroundings .

[@MrMShake]

At 58:20 someone asked about your opinion on cousin marriage, you said you already answered it in the chat, however I couldn't find your answer, could you point me to it? Inbreeding is a serious issue in many traditional Muslim societies.

[@QuranicIslam]

Yeah, that's strange. I don't remember. Maybe i meant i answered it earlier during the stream? That's my faint recollection currently. As for the question, no of course i believe in genetic diseases. Continuous, generational cousin marriages without any new blood definitely increase the likelihood to unacceptable levels. But single instances of cousin marriages don't that much I think. In the end it is up to the individuals to weigh the risks.

[@MrMShake]

@@QuranicIslam ok, but do you think it would be religiously acceptable for Muslim societies to develop a taboo of cousin marriage so that it is infrequent? There's a viral clip circulating on X of someone on the JRE claiming that ~50% of the Arab world and 80% of Pakistan is inbred(not sure what exactly qualifies as inbred) and they're blaming Islam and the Prophet for it(imu Zaynab bint Jahsh was a 1st cousin) and that inbreeding results in a lower average IQ, higher % of the population suffering from diseases, retardation which leads to extremism/terrorism/violent crimes.

[@QuranicIslam]

Yes, I think it would be acceptable as a taboo. But it should still be legal. I doubt those stats are true, and they are probably skewed via definitions. There's a lot of worse inadvertent inbreeding in the ghetto areas of europe and America. You have promiscuous men who sleep around with many women for years and have numberous bastard children (and of course it is only the same small percentage of men who are able to do this, either via "game" or status). These men are at it for decades in the same city, and so it happens some end up with their own daughters. Or half-brothers with half-sisters. Who knows what the stats are for that though. Anyway, genetics doesn't work like that. Inbreeding only allows a greater chance for recessive genes to be expressed. I doubt it plays much in IQ either ... IQ itself is genetic, and if two high IQ cousins marry then their child will likely be high IQ not lower. And as for terrorism/morality? No corrolation. They are just ignorant of the issues in traditional islam, so decide to pin that on inbreeding. The issues are hadiths, scholars, sectarianism, etc ... you don't need a high IQ to know that killing apostates is wrong. Either way, frequent cousin marriages certainly isn't the best. This is even recognized in hadiths

[@ali.rf7881]

Salam brother, what do you think verse 27:84 is saying? حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا جَآءُو قَالَ أَكَذَّبْتُم بِـَٔايَـٰتِى وَلَمْ تُحِيطُوا۟ بِهَا عِلْمًا أَمَّاذَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ ٨٤ Its a bit hard for me to understand Is it talking about those who rejected the verses because of a lack of knowledge (rather than arrogance)?

[@QuranicIslam]

You'll have to be more specific about what's causing you issues with it. I mean, to me There's nothing to explain. They are being questioned as to why they rejected, rather called a lie, something that they had no knowledge of. What's the issue? I mean ... is it right for you to go up to a (I don't know) doctor for example, and start saying that everything the doctor is saying is a lie and false? When you don't have the knowledge to be able to make that assessment? On judgement day we'll be questioned for our response to things, either following or denigrating, without knowledge; { وَلَا تَقۡفُ مَا لَیۡسَ لَکَ بِہٖ عِلۡمٌ ؕ اِنَّ السَّمۡعَ وَالۡبَصَرَ وَالۡفُؤَادَ کُلُّ اُولٰٓئِکَ کَانَ عَنۡہُ مَسۡـُٔوۡلًا } [Surah Al-Isrāʾ: 36] Dr. Mustafa Khattab: Do not follow what you have no ˹sure˺ knowledge of. Indeed, all will be called to account for ˹their˺ hearing, sight, and intellect. Abdul Haleem: Do not follow blindly what you do not know to be true: ears, eyes, and heart, you will be questioned about all these.

[@ali.rf7881]

@@QuranicIslam For example someone heard a few things about Islam (maybe war verses of the quran), and then rejected because of that, would it come under that verse?

[@QuranicIslam]

@@ali.rf7881 Looks like my reply didn't go thru. Let's try again. No, it wouldn't. Rejecting things isn't a problem, it isn't a sin. There is no compulsion in religion. What that verse is talking about is calling something a lie, takdheeb, without knowing it. It's a type of slander. One which is done towards God as well, bc this verse, like all of the Qur'an, is addressing those who believe in God. So someone rejecting a verse of the Qur'an bc they don't believe in God obviously doesn't apply. And again, this verse is about questioning on judgment day. Don't fall into the trap of trying to sort every verse into one if punishment or reward. It is the next verse which speaks of punishment, and it gives the reason for it; their zulm بما ظلموا

[@ali.rf7881]

@@QuranicIslam salam What if someone were to believe in God (like eg a christian) but he thinks the Quran isnt really from God (and is a lie) Is that part of takdeeb? Also they get punished for zulm but in 10:17 one of the most unjust things you can ever do is denying Gods revelations?

[@QuranicIslam]

@@ali.rf7881 No. Takdheeb isn't something that is genuine or sincere. It is about calling truth a lie deliberately. According to the Common Word verse, Christians don't have to believe in the Qur'an anyway The issue is this I think; you are missing the point of the Qur'an & Revelation in the first place. There is hardly any virtue in admitting or accepting the Qur'an is from God. Real emaan in its verses is the emaan in what the verses teach. Real takdheeb of its verses is in giving the lie to what they teach and say. God is hardly interested in you accepting the Qur'an is from him, yet rejecting what it says. Like that people ENTER Jannah "by what they used to do" for example. That's actual takdheeb in the verses ... bc you'd be believing they are from God, but ultimately calling it a lie That's why such takdheeb is bad, though Q10:17 has a linguistic subtlety lost in translation. It is about lying USING the signs/verses of Allah. "Lying WITH the ayat", ie using them to lie ... which is why it is at the level of inventing a lie upon God, which is the greatest sin

[@HA-vy9ow]

Are there not instances where God punishes a people with external forces…

[@QuranicIslam]

You mean via other people? I don't think so. Discounting Prophet's of course, who are acting by God's directive (and may even disobey). If God punishes people by others, then it won't be via those others sinning and oppressing Here is a verse I should have remembered when talking with Shaima (wish I could do the streams earlier & fresher and not so late at night, but has to be after the baby sleeps); { ثُمَّ اَنۡزَلَ اللّٰہُ سَکِیۡنَتَہٗ عَلٰی رَسُوۡلِہٖ وَعَلَی الۡمُؤۡمِنِیۡنَ وَاَنۡزَلَ جُنُوۡدًا لَّمۡ تَرَوۡہَا وَعَذَّبَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا ؕ وَذٰلِکَ جَزَآءُ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ } [Surah At-Tawbah: 26] Dr. Mustafa Khattab: Then Allah sent down His reassurance upon His Messenger and the believers, and sent down forces you could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such was the reward of the disbelievers. Abdul Haleem: Then God sent His calm down to His Messenger and the believers, and He sent down invisible forces. He punished the disbelievers- this is what the disbelievers deserve- Here God is "punishing", but it was part of the battle of Hunayn against aggressors. Also "unseen forces" were involved as well as God's own Messenger So I don't think you can extrapolate that to others. Certainly not in every battle. Otherwise tyrants would claim, as they have in the past, that God "punished" righteous resistance Like that God punished Hussain & the Prophet's family and sahaba at Karbala via Yazid. As well as Madina by Muslim bin 'Uqba when he massacred its people & had over 1k women raped. Or that Mecca was punished by having the Ka'ba destroyed by the Ummayads as a punishment for supporting ibn Zubayr So, you have to be careful. Never say the actions of tyrants are "God doing X" PS: it is us, anyway, who should be punishing criminals and crimes in this world

[@MrSovietunion78]

@@QuranicIslam There is the events of Banu Isra'il being punished twice in Surah 17 for their evil deeds, the disbelieving ones who done evil that is.

[@QuranicIslam]

@@MrSovietunion78 I don't think those are called punishments. Which specific verse would you point to for that?

[@MrSovietunion78]

@@QuranicIslam Salam dear brother, read 17:1-9.

[@QuranicIslam]

Yes I know the section. But which verse especially? Bc none of them talk about God punishing, except for 1 ... and it talks about Hell, Q17:8.