What Makes A Champion "Toxic"? | League of Legends

[@VarsVerum]

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[@theodortobb8920]

you made it after 4 months im instaling

[@flamingz2398]

opera is hands down my favorite browser. It sounds like a sales pitch but theres just so much in the browser, and it's the first one I've gotten that doesnt murder league when I have both running at the same time

[@sloth7thsin798]

*Hears ff14 music* ok we vibin

[@skyeazura3593]

Nice choice of ffxiv bgm

[@gavinhall3754]

i disagree with your conclusion that its the unconvetional play stile they get mad about. you said assasains one shotting you will prevent you from playing the game but unlike with cc heavy champs they necessarily need to not be behind to do so. Though i don't think it takes cc to be toxic. In low elo at least, champs like illaoi are considered toxic because killing her once or twice barely reduces her kill pressure. In addition there are champs like irellia who could feed but still dominate the midgame like irrellia, or champs who might be able to flip teamfights by getting assists like akshan ( also his lvl 1 lane pressure is ridiculous because of his double AA passive, his 3 hit passive, his ms passive, and his shield passive) . So I think a toxic champion is one that is or threatens to become supremely powerful, even if they didn't lane or teamfight well in the early to mid game

[@TheDjpwn3]

If a champion has a poison mechanic in their kit, then they're toxic

[@alvarohernani6645]

No, he's got a point

[@damour3317]

cassio singed teemo, who else

[@lokir2809]

@@damour3317 Twitch

[@yorickplayr3105]

@@lokir2809 nah, its not poison

[@lokir2809]

@@yorickplayr3105 it is, his passive makes cassio's E stronger.

[@sebastianm.9681]

Shaco is all about having fun for yourself and no one else, not even your teammates. If they are losing, they have a perfect target to blame on "this clown is freaking useless" and if they are winning you can just steal all the kills and starve your team to defeat because you just wanted to carry the game with a clown.

[@warlocked3205]

Wrong! It's all about the mind Games and you clearly Run victim to it ( drin a perspective of a shaco Main)

[@realslimshaco]

1.4M shaco otp since S4 100% correct

[@Shaco.]

A Jester, not a clown

[@TerminaBroTheFirst]

Nah man I used to play Support Shaco a lot and strangely my teammates were able to take advantage of that. I think they like me (?)

[@hesmycat]

The jokes on YOU

[@christhis9597]

Vex only theoretically beats champions with dashes. In practice vex is an r-bot that oneshots squishys and barely tickles tanks outside of lanephase. Champions with dashes can dodge her abilities and easily kill her once her fear is on cooldown

[@miguelsanchez825]

This, she is good against champions with like 1 mobility spell but I remember when she was released her biggest counters were Kassadin, Irelia and Akali while they were nerfed since then still says a lot.

[@davidkiknavelidze2130]

I agree, Vex is not an anti-dash champion at all, she just happens to be good against them on lane, as she gets bonus damage, but outside of that, she is just a mage who has cc in her kit(all mages have this anyways) and it's not even point and click, I consider Lissandra to be better at stopping mobility.

[@keku52]

@@davidkiknavelidze2130right, Vex only has 1 choice when it comes to self peel vs lockdown since she has 0 CC outside of her passive which has a shit ton of cd and requires you to waste skills to bring that cd down *fast enuff* to have the 2nd option. Lissandra has 1 instant root for either self peel or lockdown and 1 point and click stun OR stasis + heal for again; self peel or lockdown

[@SeisoYabai]

@@keku52 Lissandra also has invulnerability, an easy time building Everfrost, a delayed blink that lets her bait out abilities and outrange any dash, AND a slow on her Q to deal with movement speed buffs. She really is the quintessential anti-mobility option.

[@ahmadbugshan9603]

i mean when i play vex i win against dashes unless its irellia i only win early vs irellia then she gets vampric tower dive me and trade until she gets BORK then i just die

[@Empmortakaten]

I think part of what makes a champion toxic is perceived fairness. Note: I'm coming at this as a former top main (that heavily favoured split push champions such as Yorick, Nasus, and Tryndamere) and currently support main (that heavily favours hook and engage champion such as Blitzcrank, Thresh, and Shen). Take Yuumi and another enchanter such as Nami. Even when there is an enemy Nami that is a god on the enemy team, it feels like them beating me was fair. There was no stupid gimmick, no overpowered bullshit, nothing that feels like I have zero answer to it. Yeah, she's landing 3 person bubbles and yeah she's sustaining the enemy through a surprising amount of damage, but the 3 person bubbles are happening because I (and my team, in this case) fucked up our positioning. She's healing so well because we aren't focusing her down or are splitting damage. Stuff like that. Yuumi feels incredibly toxic because there are times it feels like I have zero answer for her. She hops on a Draven or a Darius or a Heccarim, and the normal methods I have of dealing with those champions just go right out the window. Can't kite out the darius anymore because he's moving at 700 movespeed while she's healing the chip damage we're doing. Can't burst down the Draven anymore because between his Immortal Shield Bow and her heals and probably exhaust there just isn't enough damage. They feel like they aren't fair to play again. A Jhin beats you? It's because he's good. Good positioning, good angles, good kiting. A Samira beats you? It's because she has a resetting dash, a mobile windwall, and more regen in her ult than the entirety of Mundo's old kit. A nami or Lulu beats you? Again, good positioning, good kiting, knowing what spell to use, who to use it on, and when to use it. A yuumi beats you? It's because she just turned whatever champion she's on into a pure statstick while giving them an almost infinite value in stats.

[@yooitsameee6355]

It was a good take until you included lulu with nami 💀

[@willnash7907]

@@yooitsameee6355 As a lulu hater and occasional lulu player. She used to be the most healthy enchanter and a good flex. They shifted her power from supp-mage hybrid to just braindead supp and made her toxic.

[@mistakken5112]

The only point I would disagree with is Samira, but other than that you hit the nail on the head.

[@yooitsameee6355]

@@willnash7907 yeah, I remember a time where lulu was actually vulnerable at times in teamfights. But now she just runs away and enchants her teammates and disables you with no repurcussions

[@gamera5160]

@@mistakken5112 Circular mobile windwall is crap.

[@Skaypegote]

Here's what I think it boiis down to. It's like playing against a control deck in any card game. They're insanely frustrating to play against because they win by negating your game plan. Their form of win condition is legitimately to just stop you from playing the game the way you want to play it, so that you lose from either frustration and making mistakes, or legitimately running out of options. Seeing that league isn't a card game, this isn't a direct comparison, but I think that's what it is. Control is about proving you know what your opponent will do, and how to stop them. Which is what makes Shaco and Teemo so annoying when they're played well. Shaco plays mind games, and Teemo abuses tendencies, basically saying "I'm smarter than you".

[@nikolaivladski9905]

> Seeing League isn't a card game Well technically there is Legends of Runeterra which is a card game featuring LoL characters but anyway on the topic of card games. I wonder if aggro is more toxic than control. On one hand you didn't get to play the game cuz your opponent just ended it faster, on the other hand you didn't get to properly play the game because your opponent countered every move you tried to do. I seem to have a vendetta against aggro though control does grind my gears sometime.

[@WeFareFartherThanDreams]

I don't consider mushrooms everywhere while oracle scanners having a CD meaning you can't clear them all- being outsmarted. I think just being annoying would be the better "definition" here. Some champs can't even afford to buy off build items to counter other players, if oracle is on CD and you build health to hopefully mitigate teemo damage from shrooms, then you have less damage, and something like that situation for azir, can be detrimental when he is a damage deaing champ, not a primary tank, and he needs AP. (Happens on other champs too).

[@doomkingraye7692]

control decks are mostly hated by casual players like, actual good mtg (the card game I'm most familiar with) actual good players hate something because it's strong not because it's toxic an example would be when tibalt trickery came out in kalhedim, everyone hated it just because if the deck that was built around it drew that he would just win the game on spot (turn 2)

[@doomkingraye7692]

@@nikolaivladski9905 the problem with aggro decks is just that the match is a deckbuilding check, if their deck is well built it kills aggro, if not they kill you (unless you draw a really bad hand), aggro is frustrating when you are trying to make a gimmick meme deck work and they just farm you

[@deonm4759]

@@nikolaivladski9905 so an Ionia deck vs a Noxus deck

[@EKproductionsarg]

There's also the "cute? factor" where if you get killed by a giant axe or a screaming scarecrow from hell you think "Yeah... that makes sense" but when you die because of fungi-steping or a puppet, things that aren't inherently deadly; it makes a shortcircuit and feels like bullshit

[@davidkiknavelidze2130]

Nah, this just you being insecure. I bet you also don't like Zoe.

[@schlopsker.mp5]

@@davidkiknavelidze2130 someone got hit in the feelings

[@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856]

Singed aint cute lol

[@davidkiknavelidze2130]

@@schlopsker.mp5 Wym by that

[@schlopsker.mp5]

@@davidkiknavelidze2130 getting offended by someone essentially saying getting crushed by a mace feels more lethal than stepping on a mushroom, yet the mushroom is just as lethal.

[@anlize3422]

I would argue that the "toxic" in league has to do with feeling helplessness and the inability to fight back. Shaco is a bloody hell to fight against because even if you are stronger than him, getting him and killing him are difficult things. Its hard to get that sense of catharsis and vindication after he makes your life hell. Singed makes you feel helpless because you can't move, your hp melts and he is often too tanky for you to be able to fight him properly. Whenever you do kill him, it's usually after chasing after him, so you get that feeling of defeat by having played into Singed's hands. Teemo offers similar problems. If you're melee, his blind darts are an annoyance, his range means you can't really box with him and the mushrooms corners you because you don't know where is a safe place to fight or to retreat to. I used to love smacking teemos around with old Pantheon because I could fight his annoying ass back with the spear, but since league idiotic rules to turn everything into a skillshot, that isn't the case anymore. If you feel you don't have a recourse to fight back or to properly "deal" with a threat, you will classify that as a bad design, or downright toxic, depending on how rage inducing it is.

[@TrickingTrapster]

It doesn't help that teemo wasn't always so toxic to go up against. He got an absolutely massive buff when they removed oracle's elixir and added oracle lens. When you had a constant small AoE around you that revealed his shrooms until you died it wasn't that bad.

[@Leonardo_correa]

Panth can still smack teemo

[@aabeeek]

A champion whose basic ability is a flash on 12 second cooldown that additionally gives him invisiblity is annoying to play against. Not suprising. At least Shaco falls of late game, if you manage to deal with him early game then he almost completly stops being a threat. Teemo and his mushrooms on the other hand are pain in the ass for the whole game.

[@nechocat1234]

if you can't kill teemo with panth I would argue the problem is with you not teemo, teemo can't do anything agains a w - q - e combo

[@SangoProductions213]

Dude teemo is easily the easiest character to beat with quite literally any meta toplaner. Only exception is Morde.

[@Aggelos_krl]

A toxic champion in my opinion is someone who can do increasable things that no one can counter with the tap of a button and nothing else with literally no effort at all .

[@Rakaan238]

Why'd u type up Yone's E description?

[@szalyn8849]

@@Rakaan238 He still can get hard ccd 🤪

[@deletthis5040]

I thought the same thing, it's not fun standing around in lane against a malzahar or anivia.

[@spricko28]

@@deletthis5040 actually I would rather play lane against those 2 than any of overburffed assassin

[@MatsYoo]

So illaois e

[@bastenthegreyhound7206]

You know, this is different from the video here, but I have an interesting experience where my table in Magic the Gathering banned not only counter spells, but Blue in general. Over the years I found out something interesting. With the absence of blue, what took over the table was combo play. With no way to stop combo players on their turn, they were free to go infinite or set up massive boards. To counter that, because we have no blue, we used red and black board wipes and the two strongest forms of removal, non targeting permanent destruction, and non targeting permanent Exile. When that stopped working, it shifted to hand and deck destruction. And after that didn't work, we had to reintroduce blue because there was literally no way to stop the combo players (me included in combo players). We took away blue, but needed to reintroduce it, because the psychological control in blue was too important to the game. Eventually we reintroduced having counter spells I a limited capacity. This was a learning lesson though. Blue has a purpose. It's not just annoying to be annoying. It has a job. Just like anti carries and toxic champions have a purpose. They have a job and of they don't exist to do it, then something goes crazy. I wonder what would be going crazy if an untargetable enchanter support didn't exist. Maybe full dive comps? Like Pyke, Samira, Rawst, Sion, Diana?

[@ApexGale]

It is the exact same dynamic in fighting games. Without zoners or zoning tools in the game, characters that have a hard time getting in suddenly get to go to town. Their close range buttons all have superior frame data and you lose by default

[@PopersIRL]

damn u play magic and lol? ur mental must be decimated

[@willnash7907]

Samira, Diana, Sion and Rhast are exactly the reasons why non-targetable untouchable enchanters are awful. Enchanters in general are blue. In a meta where Blue is too dominant or too easy, you introduce more skill checks or take away power from it, you don't ban it. Yummi and ubtargetable enchanters are not Blue, they are one bad, boring way too easy blue card or combo that sucka the fun out of the game even when it is not meta. Remove or rework it to make blue healthy again.

[@endurgai]

rawrst

[@BlackfeatherMain]

Out of curiosity what was the limit you set for counterspells? This is something I might start doing at some of the casual groups I'm in

[@franciscoreis3717]

For me toxic champions could be divided in 2 catergories. The ones that either encourange uninteractive gameplay or the ones that when played optimally offer no counterplay to the opponent. Basically making the game feel like a single player game.

[@willnash7907]

so yummi... both counts

[@Mimi-py8mf]

@@willnash7907 yuumi is definitely the first one but she is easily countered by any cc, especially in lane phase. Just pay attention to her mana since she is out of mana after 2 e, she will be forced to go out because she's useless if she doesn't proc her passive, cc her and it's a free kill

[@willnash7907]

@@Mimi-py8mf This is all irrelevant. The issue is not Yummi in lane. The issue is Yummi on their fed toplane or jungle Yone / Diana / Bel'veth which has no skillchecks and no counterplay. Guess what? It works the same even when she is 0/9/3. I play regularly with multiple accounts ranging from gold to master and she is the same in every elo. Edit: In lane she can just play extremely passive and make it impossible for her or her carry to get hit. She can spam q to stop trades and keep e for ganks or binds and since her skill cap and base is on kindergarten levels there is no skillchecks or counterplay for that either. In lower elo they will int a lot more but in lower elo games drag on and the hypercarry low counterplay champions she latches on are more numerous and more often fed.

[@barnyard4030]

I feel like what they all have in common is that they get get aggressive and poke u down while be able to safely get away with little to no harm. They incentivise you to fight them when they poke u and when you chase they run to their traps to bait u

[@iforgot8376]

When Neath Dark Waters started playing I thought I had a second tab open. Nope, Vars just has great taste in background music

[@zarekodynski9077]

I’ve always thought the solution to Yuumi from the get go was her taking a portion of damage that her target takes. That way she can’t just sit on someone and empower them without much, if any, risk. It would have solved her under tower pressure as well before they made her take turret aggro while attached.

[@acat5338]

A neat change could be nerfing heal and prowling projectile, but making it so if Yuumi picks up her passive, it empowers her next Q or E. Nerfing the afk playstyle, but encouraging use of her passive and hopping off..

[@Rabid_Ferret]

League devs thought that making her heal cost a certain percentage of mana was a big enough set back and completely ignored all the other issues.

[@Gershelf]

That would only be fair, if her heal then also healed her. Yuumi is already given a lot of negatives, with grievous wounds, having the toughness of wet paper, and the biggest counterplay: Idiotic team mates, who thinks her heal have a 1 sec CD, that can heal them to full, for no mana. It isn't hard to counter her. Get grievous, pummel her target, and then CC her when she's off. Its' way easier to count her, rather than something truly toxic like Shaco, or Yi.

[@pabloaulestia6310]

@@Gershelf being fair thats the biggest counterplay to all enchanters that Can heal not just Yummi, nami soraka Senna your team thinks you heal them with out coldowns or the need of mana

[@Gershelf]

@@pabloaulestia6310 And that is why the general thought of support players, is that we're babysitter, with 4 toddlers. We can only look at a few at a time, and those we don't look at, will try and climb into the oven, or waddle towards the stairs.

[@alejandropetit6573]

I will never ever get tired playing Singed and zooming on top of someone that I know can't kill me or get away and spam dance and recall until they die of poison damage. The only exception is Braum players because they are bros and I'm not gonna do them dirty like that

[@dravendraven1471]

If we're talking toxicity here. Then I, Draven Draven can be a number 1 example. And my buddy, Kassadin, aswell. I can't blame him, though. He has equipment from Zaun.

[@andrei_durlea]

Someone finally knows the lore!

[@IAmE37]

E

[@tbone9474]

As a kassadin I take offence to that... but agree whole heartedly

[@dravendraven1471]

@Poor Quality Gameplay both.

[@khalilkirigawa]

@@dravendraven1471 ACTIVE: Jax enters Evasion, a defensive stance, for 2 seconds, causing all non-turret basic attacks against him to be dodged. Jax also takes 25% reduced damage from all champion area of effect abilities. Counter Strike can be recast after 1 second. At the end of the duration, Jax stuns all nearby enemies for 1 second and deals physical damage to them, increased by 20% for each attack dodged, up to a 100% increase.

[@TheNitrean]

yuumi is a grace to game design. Removing any traditional counterplay and not adding another way to counter her. The only way to win against yuumi is to stat-check against her. Obsolutely awful design.

[@thylakoto]

I think you meant to type "disgrace"

[@snaili6679]

never lost a game to yuumi in my life idk what are u talking about

[@TheNitrean]

@@snaili6679 regardless if she is op or too weak. She is bad design. The fact that people win against her and that she has a bad winrate with such a ban rate tells the story

[@anonmely-6803]

I have a lot on how to fix/rework it. 1: It takes damage if its hosts gets hit with lethality/armor pen/magic pen. *She will take the extra damage the host would've taken. Yummi will take any leftover damage that kills the host* 2: It takes a bit of damage when it attaches to someone with Bambi Cinder, the tank mythics, and Bramble Vest and Thornmail. 3.Things I would add to it's kit: New passive, Yummi now slowly decays health if not attached to a host. New attach mechanic, It can attach to enemies and steal buffs from them(channeled ability lasts 4 seconds). It will take damage while stealing buffs if hit the host is hit by an ally or if the host has any the items that can damage yummi. My idea for a rework would to make it an actual parasite.

[@willnash7907]

@@anonmely-6803 Awful idea but damn if it isn't thematiclly appropriate. The "Fun Sucker".

[@X-35173]

I was a stall main in my competitive days and it earned my Umbreon such nicknames as "That fucking fox" "the unkillable pokemon" and (my favourite) "Satan's lapdog"

[@viperdragon35lol6]

mind listing the moveset you used on her???

[@X-35173]

@@viperdragon35lol6 ironic username to ask that since her (nice job getting the gender right) name was Viper. She was +def -spd/atk (I forget which) with max EVs in both defenses and a pinch of health. Inner focus for the ability and leftovers for the item. Toxic Moonlight Substitute Protect

[@coffee0093]

I have a guilty pleasure of telling people their champion takes no skill while playing Yuumi, gets them tilted quick!

[@monkehotdogs2227]

Yuumi players really only need 2 buttons lol

[@coffee0093]

thats the joke

[@josevitorag]

You aren't lying tough. The very concept of Positioning, which matters to adc to tanks, are inexistent on her, just relying on the ally to do the work.

[@sunnydargonnel]

I mean even Yuumi has more skill to play than Lux.

[@coffee0093]

fuck lux I ban that shit permanently

[@jvsaadijahn4298]

I love how you compare and show examples from other games like pokemon, smash, and yugioh in your videos!

[@Sclonez]

About Yuumi, there should be a cost by being attached To an Ally. The one thing I think can balance her could be to take a % of the damage dealt to the champ that she's is attached (But not reducing the damage taken by the ally) There should be more cost to some champs hability to balance the game, 'Couse usually the ones that have restrictions are not popular. Xerath has to anchor him self to ult and slow himself to use Q in exchange to have that huge range. Meanwhile other champs have little to nothing cost to use habilities, like Irelia that dances around killing and tanking anything in sight like nothing. Think this like how HxH's NEN Works: Almost al the habilities have condition and cost, and the most broken or powerful skills have more restrictions and cost.

[@blueqion9488]

10:10 not only that you can also find out if it is the real one by clicking on him at a point were he has his mythic item since the clone has no mythic item border around his mythic item.

[@kit8588]

Still doesn't help in the "was invisible before you saw him" situation but that's a cool little detail to watch out for

[@blueqion9488]

@@kit8588 Well yeah it also takes time to click on someone if there are 2 Shacos that kill you with 3 aa's you wont have that time but if someone else get's attacked and you are there to help you can kill the right one and maybe even ping the right one next time. Of curse that only works after he already got his Mythic

[@iloveknife8798]

@@blueqion9488 Here's a easier way i think The clone don't have the kill score Champion *alway* have a score board on where you would see their hp/mana description A clone would only show it's HP and ITEM A champion also show KILL/DEATH/ASSIST along with hp and golden border mythic

[@blueqion9488]

@@iloveknife8798 Interesting I didn't know that

[@iloveknife8798]

@@blueqion9488 Of course if your team is incompetent for ping... They would "know" who to target

[@SuperSaku1]

I think a very large part of what makes a toxic champion is the ease with which you can control or deny your opponent their pressure/ability to play the game. If Teemo's q was a skillshot, even if it did considerably more damage to compensate, I think a lot of people would be less annoyed because there would be an obvious way of potentially dealing with it. Being able to outplay what counters you is really enjoyable for me (I used to almost exclusively play Twisted Treeline before it was reworked and then taken away so I've seen it all) and there's a sense of fulfillment there, but unless you're windwalling it with Yasuo, there isn't really a way to stop Teemo from q'ing you. Yes you can deal with it, just wait out the blind or use abilities that wont miss as a result, but all he has to do is press Q, and the pressure is on you to figure out what to do. In every single situation that's all it takes, you adapting, while he presses Q. It's similar with a Shaco box in that all Shaco has to do is press the button, and suddenly you have to 5 brain how to literally walk the next few seconds. Shaco's ult? If he wants to be behind you, he will be. If he wants two of him behind you, it's gunna happen. One of the reasons I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh is because of something similar. It's gotten to the point where you can have 3 4k beaters that can negate effects while cycling through your deck in the first turn, and for a fighting game example, just look at how people reacted to Chris G when he was playing Marvel (Build Meter for Morgan, make a clone on the other side of the screen, spend the next 5 minutes filling it with fireballs until the game is over) These things feel cheap and toxic (in my opinion because they are) but if more had to be done to reach those states of absolute control, I don't think it would be so bad.

[@yujiro424]

I miss Twisted Treeline. It's a shame it became a bot fiesta.

[@CAWC971]

As a teemo main, I can tell you you don't want a Teemo Q that deals more damage. Sure, lane would be sometimes easier but at what cost ? Being literally OS'd every time you trip one of my shrooms and I'm sitting next to it waiting for you ? Be glad they removed gunblade already x) I really get the hate teemo receives but at the same time, I know and everyone knows that unless he's fed asf and/or you're heavily relying on AAs he's not that much of a threat, just don't go after him if you don't have sweeper, just like you wouldn't follow a singed. Playing teemo you realize that sure, he's annoying to play against but until a certain point and then most of the toplaners/etc can solo him nobrainer. You just run him down. He's not OP or whatever imo, you just have to not play his game.

[@heidtb6746]

I'd say a huge part of toxic champions is removing weaknesses, similar champions have. just how yuumi can't be focussed, Teemo can blind enemies who get too close and Shaco has 3 different "get out of this situation" abilities as an assassin This is especially true if there is no other weakness opening up. It feels like they have all pros and non of the cons of their class.

[@willnash7907]

Assassins are meant to have escapes and mobility though. Top mages are meant to have damage denial. Support enchanters are NOT MEANT to be unfocusable.

[@heidtb6746]

@@willnash7907 Teemo is not really a mage, he's a marksman And Assassins usually have high risk high reward playstyles that allow them to go in and get a kill. getting out for free is a rare case (Zed and Akali are the ones i think about) but Rengar, Nocturne, Evelynn etc. are completely screwed when their play doesn't work. Shaco having too much engage makes his assassin playstyle low risk high reward and that's a problem

[@willnash7907]

@@heidtb6746 Rengar has a cleanse and dash mechanics and a snare. Nocturne trades his escape for braindead levels of ease of use. Eve has one of the best escapes in the game and is toxic because of it. Shaco is really high risk. The issue is that his ad form is toxic because it is too snowbally without a skillcheck. AD shaco should just not exist imo. Teemo blind on marksman would be a little weirder but not too off curve.

[@consultativemind1206]

@@willnash7907 I think assassins are meant to kill a single isolated target with high burst damage, and in failing to do so, they kinda deserve to die. Of course in practice, this doesn't really work because of exhaust and such, but I don't think an assassin with same lvl as adc should be able to kill them twice over just because they CAN build shieldbow, CAN have a Lulu and CAN have exhaust. Kind of unfair when you just wanna play kraken Kog'Maw and your supp picks Brand, so you can't play at all.

[@willnash7907]

@@consultativemind1206 That is just how game balance works. Just ask yourself if it would be fair for tankbusting Kog'maw with the early pressure and damage of a Brand supp in his team to not drop to assassins. What would ever even drop him then? If you want to do that sort of stuff you need a higher skill champion and the mechanics to pilot it. With how easy Kog is if anything he leans too tanky.

[@stonezhang4617]

They force you to play their game with their rules, and a requirement is that it should feel like it’s rigged to them. Counterplay to shaco requires you to out mind game the champion best at mind gaming. When the clone comes out, if you’re just as good as the shaco, you find the real one no problem, and his pressure is ridiculously weak because he’s so fragile and needs you to guess wrong. His blink does this too: forces you to play his guessing game which feels so rigged against you because you are less familiar with shaco and are unfavored in the guessing odds. Toxic champions force you to understand them to win against them, but if you were interested in that you would just play that champion to begin with, so there is a lack of game knowledge due to low interest, which bites you in the butt when you need to guess which is the real shaco

[@repli2991]

I think a toxic champion is any champion whose playstyle forces you to play another game that's not league of legends, I mean, when I queue up for a league game, I want to play league of legends, when I go toplane, I want to trade with the enemy, manage the wave, get a surprise kill on them with a level up, play around cooldowns, I don't wanna play "There's some bald guy between my towers holding the wave and my jungler spam pings me to chase him, but that's exactly what he wants", I queued up to play league of legends.

[@David-lm5go]

Toxic champs are ones that inherently break the rule of the game. It is a general rule to go for the support first, but yuumi breaks that entirely. Shaco is toxic because it is hard to identify where you went wrong when you die by him. Teemo is just annoying, but to some, aggravating because he stops you from playing the game.

[@PS3Diety]

It's easy to identify where you went wrong with dying to Shaco, You decided to play league that day.

[@GrEEnF1Re1]

"Shaco is toxic because it is hard to identify where you went wrong when you die by him." Yeah like for example being a support it was my fault i didnt Warded the enemy fountain to see shaco walking out of it, Shaco is a fair and non-toxic at all champ that has counter play

[@zerlichr426]

To explain what is toxic champion, it kinda can be explained by: "you need to know specific rules or strategies to beat set champion compare how you usually deal with any other champion in set role or class" Or "Champion with specific playstyle that require cooperation of entire team to just beat them down. And lacking knowlege from any teammate can lead to lost game"

[@mathuraphael9196]

The second point is really good Not all said toxic champions are like that, but it's a good point. Some of the champions that are considered toxic by the community are siming to be broken in solo q, while being nonexistent in proplay just because right coordination of the team prevents set champions from being usefull. I would say teemo is good example of this. The reason why all 5 team members are buying oracles against fed teemo is because everyone is ultimetly protecting himself, while good coordinated team would need just 2 members, jungler/midlaner and support for example to ensure area is safe from shrooms. Which makes those champions balanced in paper but broken in solo q where coordination is very limited.

[@zerlichr426]

Others can be like Katarina known "don't use all stuns or she just face roll us" or "don't gang Heimerdinger with all his turrets up" Because it's not like they don't have weaknesses Like Yummi. By herself she acually is not that toxic to be honest (at least after nerfs) and compare to basicly any enchanter, if she is only one alive she can't do anything. At least someone like Soraka/Sona/Lulu AT least try to stall or kill someone before dropping dead. Not to mention she can only provide support to just one person 80% of the time. But DAMN is she anoying on fed person. Edit: and sidenote i don't thing she is acually WORSE version of original plan for parasite champion. Original plan was for it to be Vanguard... Imagine Rammus sitting on fed person. That's why Riot like to defend her, because she was in concept development sanse 2010-2011. Somewhere around the time when Omen was stuck in freezer.

[@whitelanternflash4625]

The first one isn't really correct imo, a lot of people think champs like Zed or Akali are toxic despite having nothing that an assassin shouldn't have

[@zerlichr426]

Exept more dashes that assasin usually have. And both have better neutral that all in assasin should have

[@whitelanternflash4625]

@@zerlichr426 nah, they're fine

[@blackblack1167]

When I played competitive Pokemon, I used a stall team. A good portion of my wins were people leaving the game. I played a UU team and it was especially frustrating for people when I went into OU and managed to win or actually stall the game. I've had people say some pretty foul shit over it lol

[@Takapon218]

Which makes sense, because stall is boring. Even if it isn't for you, most players simply find it a waste of time even if they can break through it.

[@callumsharpe761]

Any champion that punishes you for playing normally like how Shacos clone punishes you for killing him (his clone)or how Teemo punishes you for roaming around the map with his mushrooms

[@babymanjones]

Personally I have a huge gripe with Sett. I find the thing to be absolutely braindead, involves no resource management, can get away with so much and requires the absolute minimum effort or knowledge to be an effective laner. Even beyond the laning phase, I find the goddamn thing to offer free and excellent initiation and counter-initiation. I usually ban it regardless of matchup

[@sibusisolanga2393]

You could apply the same concept to all other manaless champions and there are other manaless champs with far less counterplay then Sett. I admit I'm a little biased cause I'm a Sett main but Sett really isn't that bad compared to someone like Tryndamere or the Windshitters once you understand the matchup. Kiting is the key. It really isn't easy for Sett to stick onto you compared to someone like Darius with a really good slow or characters with a lot of mobility.

[@babymanjones]

@@sibusisolanga2393 I see your point man. I think I feel that way because of Sett's high regen and amount of CC. I realize he has strengths and weaknesses, I just really dislike facing him in lane lol

[@sibusisolanga2393]

Jax makes me question my life decisions whenever I fight him. I hate him too ngl he's beatable but like... Ugh

[@Weerknuffelbeer]

Sett is one of the fairest champions out there actually. Small threat bubble, has to choose between splitpushing and teamfighting with the items and runes he takes, E is a conditional stun, W has a long windup time that usually requires some form of CC to land the true damage part and R damage, while I understand can feel silly when you're playing Cho/Sion/Swain/Vlad is physical damage so is mitigated by armor. If Sett lands a fully charged true damage W, you've made a mistake or he has outplayed you. If Sett dunks your entire team with your tank or Swain/ Vlad, your tank mispositioned or Sett pulled off a good flank. Sett leaves plenty of room to outplay him even in the hands of a master, champs like Shaco or Vayne leave almost none. Of course Sett can be overtuned like he was on release, but that's a completely different topic. Sett only needs his numbers reshuffled or dialed down in order to not be overbearing anymore, someone like Akali would need an entire kit rework.

[@hunterofthestars]

dam that FF14 music from the amaurot zone hitting right in the feels

[@pluto4508]

I think what classifies them as "toxic" for me personally is just how unfair it feels playing against them, simple as that, no real parameters needed here. If I'm a toplane main, who plays mostly tanks and bruisers, I will find Fiora, Vayne, Teemo, Sett, Shaco and many others toxic just because I feel completely powerless against them in a way that does not feel justified. Why can Kha'zix oneshot the adc? Because you're extremely squishy with pretty much no self-peel, he built full damage and you did not position well on that fight, shoulda have stayed out of isolation range. Feels bad but not unfair as you know the reasons behind this. If you're late game full tank Cho'Gath with over 300 armor and 10k hp getting killed in under 6 seconds against vayne for simply auto'ing and dodging your predictable cc skills with a budget dark sould battle roll, that feels awful and unjustified. The champion has a shit ton of mobility, sustain, burst, dps, cc, and all for the cost of a low health bar that won't even decrease at later points because she'll be too busy threshotting everybody while going in and out of invisibility and knocking away anyone who comes even close to dealing damage to her. This feels toxic. I'm not sure I gave the right idea there, I'm sleepy and my self-taught english isnt the best when it comes to grammar, but yeah.

[@flameofmage1099]

Another Example: Azorius Control. Chads now what I'm talking about.

[@viperdragon35lol6]

*esper control even worse

[@flameofmage1099]

@@viperdragon35lol6 I'm ashamed to say I'm a casual Esper Control enjoyer. I usually just make a bleeder deck that stops you from attacking.

[@tablematts9055]

Shaco lore: scari clown Shaco Gameplay:

[@CrabCrabCrabskateCrab]

*THE JOKES ON YOU*

[@edumelo2654]

When a non-ultimate ability negates a whole kit of a champion or champions Yes, I mean Yasuo Windwall.

[@viperdragon35lol6]

yea i played him recently to get a first person perspective of a champ i hate maybe to reconsider my hate for him then i saw orn using his ult and was like "hmm i wonder if windwall blocks this thing" lo and behold it did now why isnt that in braums kit for an ulti instead it makes more sense that the guy with a giant shield has an ult like tht not a fckin samurai

[@luckypeanut9943]

I think the thing about toxic champs is skill expression, yummi is the definition of freelo, shacos free escape, etc etc A skilled singed is easily the most toxic anticarry but you know they had to go through hell and lots of gray screens to get that decision making

[@Takapon218]

I personally think Yuumi actually has a lot of skill expression, especially early game. Being able to hop off and soak a skill shot, knowing when to auto-trade for mana and shields, and hopping between key allies in a team fight and heal is very fun. Most Yuumi players just play her in a boring way that prevents her only counter play, landing a CC during her dash.

[@merccc1]

eh, shaco is actually really really skill reliant. Actually quite a lot that goes into it. Without proper usage he is near useless and free kills. Even the shacos escape has to be used well as after it you can basically be melted down in seconds without chance of escape. You don't even have that long of a distance for it either. There is so much mind games and tactical decisions going on to pull him off without getting melted. Takes one stun and then you lost. Veigar for example, just nothing you can do if you are caught. Oh, also don't even get started on proper usage of box placements or properly controlling the clone. That alone is difficult to not only remember to do, but do so properly to have a good effect. Especially if a shaco fails his ambush or falls short, he is out that escape for a good amount of time leaving you a chance to woop ass. Id say he has high risk and reward, always playing a fine line between doing good or getting crapped on instantly. Id hate evelynn more... Literally can appear on top of you instantaneously... from out of nowhere.. Not just from over walls and bushes, but from literally anywhere, even in the open. Not really much you can do to avoid it. You can at least keep in mind and anticipate the locations shaco can jump from.

[@higgs8441]

The Amaurot theme started playing and I almost started crying. Very nice touch sir

[@MainakRoyleomainakroy]

Ironically, I'm a support main, and I love all the champions mentioned here, except Yuumi. I like how their playstyle is completely different than the other 100s of champions present. But at the same time, Yuumi melts my mind off whenever I go up against one. So I think it boils down to our own personal biases and what role we play. Playing against Yuumi is extremely frustrating for all the reasons you previously mentioned. As a support, I have to provide shield/heal to my ADC, or provide openings with CC to engage, all the while making sure I don't get jumped on myself. Then there's a champion who doesn't have to even worry about that. Just sit in your ADC's body in laning phase, and go and sit in the body of the most fed player in your team after the laning phase. The only way you can kill a Yuumi is if your ADC is better at the game than their ADC, and can catch him/her at a disadvantage where you can finish him off through Yuumi's heals, which is easier said than done. OR, catch Yuumi while she's out of the body, and there also, it gets exponentially hard to achieve if the Yuumi is atleast somewhat okay at the game. It is an extremely frustrating interaction to go up against. Some champions obviously are easier to play than others. But never will I ever pick Yuumi, in any situation. I may be a pussy as I'm a support main and like to help from the backline, but I'm not disabled enough to pick Yuumi.

[@vixeythevixen]

pick yuumi someday, you will like it i guarantee you

[@gustavodasilvaprobst890]

@@vixeythevixen who are you? The devil?

[@yogoo0]

Have you even tried to analyse yuumis gameplay? You cant hide behind minions because her q goes around so where is it safe? Inside of the minions where the q cant reach. Did yuumi just heal? her heal is now on a 10s cd, more than enough time to burst. Did yuumi just jump off? She's looking for a shield and is vulnerable so you should save hard cc for that moment instead of using it to poke. Are you in a position where you can win a 2v1? Run the adc down and you will likely win. Is the adc just running at you? Either engage or run away cause they are looking to ult and root you. Is yuumi oom? It's a good time to go all in and burst the with the expectation that there will be a shield and 1 heal. The problem that people have with yuumi is the same problem that people have with soraka or nami or lulu or janna or xerath, or brand or lux... Essentially she is in a position where you can really only attack the adc and her kit allows her to heal and shield your damage. The only difference is once you get tilted over having your damage instantly heals is that you cant tunnel your way to them. The longer the fight, the more yuumi can remove your damage. However if its too long yuumi can easily run out of mana and per passive is barely enough for a single heal. If you can manage to burst whoever its is, or god forbid you get an 800gp healing reduction item, yuumi is now in an extremely vulnerable position. Much more so than any other support character. Her q forces you to either back off or engage. if you stay at range it will be empowered. However her q at low ranges is about the same as 2 autos. Her e takes up a large amount of mana. Force 5-6 heals from her and she'll be oom and you will now have opportunities to engage. Yuumi isn't some kind of god pick where people can just pick her up and be good. She may not have a lot of things she needs to click but her decision making of who to heal, who to shield, when to body block, when to jump off and ward, when to attach to someone else, how to gank other lanes, all come from your overall game knowledge and how you complement with your team. Sometimes it is much better to jump on the 1/8 yas to keep him from dying than it is to stay on the 12/2 samira to heal her in a team fight. Yuumis team is also very vulnerable to ganks from bot because yuumi cant really leave and gank,counter gank other people like basically anyone else. Basically yuumi is a wall. If youre going to just run through it you'll break your nose. But if you step back and actually look at what's happening, you can see that all you need to do is step to the side and the wall is no longer there.

[@dragonsreingsupreme1]

It is actually super frustrating for the yuumis adc as well since she essentially takes a 2v2 lane and turns it 2v1 positioning wise. There is no decision making when the enemy looks for trades so they have to be hyper aware at all times to the point of conceding farm so they don't get caught out. She leeches exp like a parasite then go sits on whoever is fed leaving the adc to try and become useful again. It is toxic and unfun for every laner in bot lane except for yuumi

[@lordpaulphilippfernandez9904]

Except when you're playing Engage supports with a Lucian or Draven. If your ADC follows up every hook or CC that you land, it's always a double kill on the botlane. Problem is that it will make your lane the prime real estate for ganks (from mid, jungle and even top)

[@austinpoor5217]

Toxic champions defeat you by picking their champion, not by outplaying you on that champion. That's not to say the champion is overpowered or unbeatable, or even good, merely that the player and their decision making ability is not any part of their victory. They don't win, they just reach a victory screen as an occasional gift from the riot design team. Rengar can effectively teleport onto his target, burst them down, stun them, and kill them without resistance, sure, but the work he had to do to get to that point, and the fact that you have the opportunity to get away, or anticipate his move, either because of his ult, or bushes makes it fair when he does. Shaco can proxy until six, then literally teleport on you in two different places, deliberately aggro turret with his clone, and fear you, all in the same instant, and now you're slowed, the clone is going to die (which is a good thing for him!?) and kill you without you ever being able to see Shaco and control your character at the same time, and the player has so little he had to do to get this result that he's teabagging instead of fighting you. Toxic champions are champions whose moves do all the work.

[@jacknunnink6680]

Honestly I love the idea of toxic champion. While I don't like going up against them, I know they're not invincible and they can be beat. So they push me harder to be better at the game

[@egeoeris]

So am I! I call it dedication and my teammates calling it "Reported for feeding"...

[@mrcheese5845]

I have to say that i love how well these videos are edited

[@luckas221a]

vex doesn't remove any agency from dashing champions any more than other champions with CC. she's hardly an anti-mobility champ, she just potentially benefits from having enemies with dashes. I see Poppy and Singed as anti-mobility champs.

[@kaiogiovanni]

I would say both Lissandra and Cassiopeia also fit this category

[@15Mars51]

8:40 thank you so much for remembering me about that masterpiece

[@unistudenthrefna9086]

I love the amaurot ost from ff14 throughout the video. Also I think the reason why the community thinks certain champions are toxic is how long their pressure is exerted. Shaco, if ap, doesn't kill you as fast as assassins and instead you feel the slow burn of death. Teemo and singed kill you slowly with poison and make you feel like you have no way to outplay due to either blind or fling. Yuumi is just toxic... Because she lasts longer than any other enchanter and I swear we hate enchanters more than anyclass in the game, because it makes some other dipshit look better than you.

[@mrmatejator]

About a month ago I decided to play chill game of Garen top. Lane was against Kayle. I am not sure what her runes were but her default passive mov speed was like +25 compared to me. My only option to beat her was to get to her so I was forced to max Q. I even built a bunch of mov speed. And even then I actually only cought up to her once during whole game. +25 mov speed + Q slow on demand + W mov speed buff on demand made it so that I had 0 counterplay options. That is what makes this game 'toxic'. Not having any options to win or losing when you play correctly.

[@willnash7907]

Then don't play Garen. Garen is too strong and too easy and way too strong for being way too easy. This would skyrocket his winrate if he was not held up by bad matchups. Pick a champion with more skill expression and complexity and you will do better... or wait for rito to let him stay broken for five patches straight again and enjoy the freelo... Your problem was a toxic champ but it was the one you played.

[@Z3RKIX]

For me personally the most upsetting champions to play against are the ones that can kill you regardless how bad they are doing. Tryndamere is definitely the worst champion in the game. I have more fun loosing an interesting matchup than winning against tryndamere. It's like the champion is made to make the game unfun for everyone involved.

[@CAWC971]

I agree, but for me tryndamere isn't really making the top in this category, simply by the fact he's a melee. But damn... Support mages ? ADCs ? How many of them have I seen being BAD and I really mean BAD like the enemy brand/lux throwing spells more than once in a direction none of us could be even if we tried to by flashing and yet, if they hit ONE spell, they kill you or force you to back. To me it's unfun.

[@raze467]

Amaurot/ Tempest theme in the background :)

[@anoriolkoyt]

For me as Ekko, i dont consider Vex toxic because she doesnt really "change" the gameplay of dashing.... all she does is make a task that exists already (planning the dash) more difficult. Her addition actually made me a better Ekko, it was a great challenge. Same with Akali, her update made our matches much more interesting, even though its much harder. This os the Dark Souls idea: super hard, but doable with patience and intelligence. A kill on Akali or Vex is an incredible feeling. Same for Fizz: his combo, while powerful, is very predictable. Its a huge weakness.

[@justinhorrocks8564]

Having just recently rewatched SAOA I appreciated the "hit it till it dies" immensely.

[@Discotechque]

"When it involves gray screens it's toxic" - scrub quotes

[@malice3331]

Toxic champions for me are defined by the frustration of being forced to play their game especially if you are on someone they counter, Teemo forces you to sit and wait under turret while he pokes you to death otherwise a Blind few AAs and a Mushroom or 2 can kill you faster than you realise, if you oracle his mushrooms you are still forced to walk around them while he sprints away like its Christmas day and he just woke up. Yuumi forces you forget everything you've learnt in bot lane and only target the ADC and try to burst him down before he gets a full heal and shield from an untargetable rat. Kha'zix fores you to play butt buddies, or risk getting one shot whenever you leave your lane, not to mention his play making potential and evolves can change up how you are forced to approach him, which you wont cause he will start the fight first and only when he has the upper hand. You aren't playing Darius, You are playing with a paddleball set while waiting for Teemo to finish shrooming up the lane and every jungle exit for the 4th time. You aren't playing Pyke, you are hoping the Tristana is stupid enough to dive tower while the untouchable Parasite keeps her full health the entire time, while waiting for some anti heal and Jng gank. You aren't playing Kayn, You are grey screened in river cause you thought it was a good idea to try for scuttle and Kha'zix jumped from a bush smited it and burst you down a WQ R Q and you remembered you forgot to spam ping midlane to help you, and in your heart of hearts you know even if you did they still wouldn't of helped you.

[@josevitorag]

Non-interative champions are toxic. You just can't play properly. It feels like an PVP game is turned into an PVE with just some little interaction here and there.

[@erikb4407]

Looking at you proxy farming champs...and yuumi

[@darksword0928]

I'm impressed that Vars was able to restrain himself to mentioning a single card when taking about floodgates in yugioh./s

[@El_Bellota]

The ones that have the "I hit you and you can't hit me" mechanic, are toxic.

[@yoshiagiota5299]

literally every ranged champion?

[@kaiogiovanni]

Jax lol

[@matpl2713]

4:20 The "Very fun dragon" comes for the fact that a japanese name for the card has "V. F. D." in it's name.

[@shacolin6546]

There are three things that make up toxic gameplay. One: if the win condition consists of not interacting with your opponent for long enough until the champion plays itself for you (think of Kayle or Vayne). If the gameplay consists of denying other's gameplay. Anti-game to make it short (think of Lulu or Soraka). Last but not least, champions who have so much going for them they cease to have obvious weakness. Overloaded to make it short (think of Yone or Aphelios). There's a forth thing, but its unrelated to champions. Its also actually two things, but they achieve the same thing. Healing and shielding. There's just too much of it.

[@phoenixflamegames1]

I personally hate champions I feel like I lose against despite the opponent being worse than me (cough cough Yone), champs that deal insane damage with high mobility/survivability (Hey look, it’s yone again.) or champs that can miss every skillshots and still murder you regardless (oh look yone what a surprise). Love the ff14 background music btw!

[@viperdragon35lol6]

yea i played yone for like the second time yesterday went 10/4/15 first time i played him was 3 months ago my first game i went 10/7/13 didn't know what i was doing literally inted early game then the champ hard carried me and my team. I literally played him just to prove a point of how broken he is...try first timing asol and hard carrying without reading any of his skills yone is disgusting and needs to be nerfed and his brother

[@murpl1462]

The nickname “the very fun/fair dragon” comes from the card’s Japanese name which has the initials V.F.D. In it, and that might come from the Latin phrase “Vicarius Filii Dei” which would associate it with satan. And that would make sense if you ever played against it because 1 of these is usually a stronger board than 3-4 negates.

[@khaledyasser8293]

A toxic champion is about the mental rollercoaster while fighting them. Annie vs Zed: - Oh, I'm dead. Welp. Annie vs shaco: - Oh! Shaco just popped up in my face and I have stun. Take that! I should win this now he's at 10% hp - Wait that was the clone.... fuck. Shaco can R while invis, right. - Ok time time to flash away! I can get out he already used E and Q - *Flashes into box and dies* The first had way less counterplay but it was straightforward. It's also why people hate irelia. You think you got her but then she insta heals to full. A toxic champ is one that takes your options away UNEXPECTEDLY. Could be unexpected because they just pulled out 10k damage and healing out of nowhere (irelia, fiora) or unexpected because you keep thinking you got them but you don't (shaco, teemo who gets his Q at the last auto)

[@kikimotaaa]

Although this topic is fairly subjective, I feel as though there are just certain things the community as whole perceives as unfair, and unfun to play against. For example you mentioned Teemo's relative mobility in the video as one of the factors as to why he's considered toxic, but to be honest I don't even think Teemo's mobility is an issue. I think his blind and his shrooms are where he seems genuinely unfair, as well as his invisibility. The blind specifically in Top Lane is beyond overpowered when you consider that 95% of that champions played in Top are Melee. When auto attacks are a large source of damage and damage setup for a large amount of champions in the game, it's just incredibly unfair that he can click one button and remove that source of damage from you. Especially because when you think about it, a lot of abilities in Top Lane are reliant on auto attacks to set them up. Think Yorick's minions being raised by either R or by killing 4 minions with Q, which leads into his E doing a lot of damage when the minions jump onto you; or Darius's 5 stacks of Hemorrhage which leads into his ult, and his W just being a straight up auto attack buffer. Most Top Laners are set up like that, meaning he counters almost all of them. His shrooms are just anti-fun. They do get revealed by Control Wards and Oracle Lens, yes. But Control Wards can be destroyed very easily, and when you don't even know where he set the shrooms up, it's difficult to even use Oracle to clear them since you don't even know where they could be. This often leads to you using the Oracle in common spots where he might put them, but this just allows Teemo to set up shrooms in unorthodox areas where you least expect them to be. And with limited time to sweep, and limited usage of the Oracle Lens, you won't be able to sweep the area often enough so he'll end up replacing them (specifically in the later portions of the game where his shrooms are on a shorter cooldown and can be placed more often). And this leads directly into his invisibility. He's allowed to just sit in areas where you're likely to walk completely invisible with a million shrooms set up in the area, and then appear out of thin air and kill you. Using CC that doesn't displace him won't work even if you catch him on your sweeper, so he can just sit permanently invisible and fight on his own terms. And it's worse if he's in a bush because if you don't displace him outside of the bush he won't get revealed. And this is EVEN WORSE if you don't even have a displacement CC to begin with, or if you don't have AoE abilities that do enough damage to force him to move out of stealth. And to top it all off, S12 is a season where damage is at an all time high. So if you step on a single shroom late game you could be end up half health for something that you couldn't even see coming. Of course this isn't to say that Teemo is OP or anything. I personally don't believe he's OP at all, and even he has matchups where he loses really hard. He's just genuinely an anti-fun champion and is really fun to play, but extremely unfun to play against. Riot likes to play into the jokes people make about Teemo being a nightmare to play against (with his Little Devil Teemo skin and other various jokes), but I think from a design standpoint they really need to avoid champions like him from ever happening again in the future. I don't think he needs a rework or anything, or that they need to remove him or something since he's an established character that people actually play and enjoy, and that would be unfair to them. But I think that something like Teemo just cannot happen anymore.

[@CAWC971]

Why ? You think it shouldn't happen when you actually have to think and learn to play him. I can tell in a minute if the teemo is good or not. any random mage or adc WILL dish out tons of damage even if they're bad. Isn't that more unfair ? It is to me. Sure I'm a teemo main, and I agree with everything except the part where you say he shouldn't be in the game because you think it's not fu nto play against. I find it "unfun" to get killed by lux/zyra/brand/etc just rollfacing their abilities, which in most cases you can't dodge if you take the first one, and the same goes for ADCs, they just Auto you to death NO SKILL INVOLVED WHATSOEVER in the way they deal their damage. I'm sorry but you seem biased, everyone has something they despise, for me it never was about what role or champion I play but rather the facility/forgiveness of the champion others play. I have SEEN so many mage supp/adc and other things being bad asf like you wonder why they're in your league and then you understand : because if they hit one spell, they hit all the spells, and then they kill you, idk, seems more unfair to me. Same goes for the blind top, Quinn is a teemo who took drugs. She can cancel dashes, teemo just dies if you close the gap. The can blind too, and it's an AoE. Granted you can land your AAs you just don't see far but honestly, I find her blind more OP. Nothing should make your screen go black in a game like that. and she gets speed from attacking you, teemo looses his speed if he gets hit... I mean... Yeah sure, hate on teemo but he's by no means the worst of them all, people are just easily tilted so yeah

[@kikimotaaa]

@@CAWC971 most mages do have counter-play though. It comes in the form of you being able to dodge their abilities and you being able to one shot them back. There are genuinely annoying mages to play against like Malzahar and Lissandra, but I never said they weren’t also unfair or not balanced. My whole argument was against Teemo being way too good at what he does in Top Lane and how unfun his kit is to play against. I also think champions like Malz and Liss are super unfun to play against for similar reasons. Liss has too much safety and a point and click, 5 year stun allowing her to just burst and one shot you. Similarly to Lissandra, Malz has a point and click Suppress (which is the most OP CC in the game by far), and can set up ganks way too easily just like Lissandra can. ADCs take skill in other forms. They’re mechanically difficult champions to pilot by nature, and it’s very easy to just feed on an ADC. Not only are they mechanically difficult, they’re incredibly unforgiving. Meaning that stepping out of line once in a teamfight means you get one shot, or getting ganked once and dying in lane spells the end of your game. As for my supposed “bias”, yes I am biased. But since this discussion by nature is subjective, you would also have to be biased in order to even participate. Because your opinion about whether or not something is broken is a bias in and of itself.

[@Jyukenmaster95]

Toxic champions tend to have that "omae wa mou shindeiru" factor when you play vs them. The frustrating thing about playing against teemo yumi singed shaco etc is that if you make a mistake vs them, you get to a point where you have to watch yourself die, while still being teased with bits of agency remaining, as opposed to being bursted dead. It's the same feeling of when casuals at the casino look at the ball and go "come on, come on, come on...!!", except it comes up as a loss way more often than not

[@michelveit8238]

I can’t descibe what it really is, but I started playing Teemo about 3 or 4 years ago when I was extremely frustrated because I had several aweful games in a row and I decided that if I don’t have fun playing, the others shouldn’t either. And Teemo just fit perfectly into that plan. He is a ranged Toplaner with a point and click spell that negates a core element for many champs in Toplane, he can indirectly setup easy ganks because he forces players to adapt to him by buying a sweeper, and thus they can’t ward their lane. Otherwise they will run into shrooms which is a death sentence for most squishy champs. Also I have not found a single thing in this game that brings more joy to me than taking Tier 1 Turret and then just taking over the enemy top side jungle. Jsut shroom all the entrances and chokepoints, hard shove every wave and just camp in their top side jungle. I think it boils down to the fact that these champions play completely different to most other champions and thus you have to adapt to a completely new playstyle to face them. And I can’t speak for all of these champions, but for Teemo especially the objectives of a Game are unique. While with most Toplaners I want to splitpush alone, avoid the enemy jungler, rotate after pushing to force an advantageous teamfight and just find the most effective way to win the game, with Teemo I barely care about winning. My goal is to completely frustrate the enemy toplaner. I want them to go into the next game and ban Teemo just so they don’t have to endure the same agony again. I want them to rage against their jungler for not ganking them, I want the jungler to rage at the toplaner for nit keeping teemo in check so he could shroom his whole topside jungle. I don’t really care about winning, I want to scar the enemy mental as much as possible. Make them flame each other and destroy the enemy team that way. It just so happens to be quite an effective way of winning.

[@pabloaulestia6310]

So you turned into what you hated the most

[@kos_]

A champion thats untargetable done well is Abathur from HotS. He is actually hard to play and is very macro focused. Whenever he is on someone, his body sits still, while he's on an ally. However you want to be in a lane, as you need XP for the team as well as automatically pushing it out due to his passive spawning minions from his body.

[@rPk0hu]

the Mephisto/Fenix ult combo wrecks him-then again you've just spent two heroics on one slug lol.

[@AncientSmithingStone]

I was really expected Yone to pop up. Something about an assassin with one of the most impactful team fight ults, Aoe damage, heals, true damage, and shields deems a bit toxic to me. But I could be wrong I'm only a silver

[@AncientSmithingStone]

Oh yea ramping movement speed and cc cleanse, and mix damage. There was so much I forgot about those too

[@thelordofthelostbraincells]

That feeling when people use "parasite" on YUUMI to describe her when that's categorically not the right word. (She's more of a symbiote, parasite implies she harms her own team, as that's the definition of parasite. "An organism that steals nutrients from and harms it's just". Now I'm not a yuumi main, I'm just saying what's in my mind.)

[@galactick3816]

Yuumi would be ballanced she took % of the dmg the champ she was on took

[@Takapon218]

@Ana Maria Vieru it would just force her to jump off and heal herself. They'd have to reduce her Heal mana cost by an astronomical amount though. They also couldn't do that if the damage would kill her because then she is entirely unplayable, which is too far in the other direction.

[@galactick3816]

@@Takapon218 They wouldn't have to reduce the mana cost too much, most of the cost is in the %max mana cost she has on her E. And the % I was thinking about would go down to for example 20% of the dmg taken by her "host". Late game she still has effectively 10K HP but early she would have to be careful if it started on like 50%

[@galactick3816]

@Ana Maria Vieru No need to split the heal, yuumi can hop off to heal herself if needed, it would finally give the champ some skill expression

[@mistercerberus6203]

ngl this was the last place I expected to find SAO Abridged memes, but it's good to see it getting the recognition it deserves.

[@FaeChangeling]

I don't get why people call Yuumi a "parasite" when she's very clearly a symbiote. You get heals, adaptive force, extra poke from her Q, a free area root, and the effects of multiple extra items just by having her attach to you, in return all she gets is untargetability and some assists. If anything it benefits you more than Yuumi, so calling her a parasite is just entirely false.

[@VageG0zer]

Because sometimes people are so overrun with emotion that they can't think logically anymore. They have to hate it, it's cathartic to have a collective hatred for something.

[@caiwitt5456]

shes a parasite because she has almost 0 counter play

[@phoenixflamegames1]

When it’s on your team yeah. If it’s on the enemy team, there is no advantage soooo.....

[@durk5331]

@@phoenixflamegames1 That doesn't make her parasitic tho >.>

[@WeFareFartherThanDreams]

Also gotta include that the team going against yuumi, gets less gold for kills since yuumi rarely dies.

[@EVERYTYME]

Ya..toxic champs are the champions that break the fundamental way the game is usually played out. A huge example of this to me. Not mentioned in the video, is Vayne/Fiora/Divine Camille's max HP true damage. Can't build resistances. Can't build health. Just have to play correctly.

[@RogerMoments]

Honestly I feel like the word "toxic" is extremely incorrect here. Shaco/Teemo/Yuumi are the epitome of ANNOYING. Very annoying champs to fight against 100%. Shaco Top/Mid player here and honestly, I feel like the "broken" or over-popular Meta champs are the real definition of toxic (Akali, Yasuo/Yone, Pantheon, Irelia, etc) because they do more damage than they should with very little risk involved. Teemo and Shaco actually take skill to play (if you're going AP for both) because you NEED to work around your traps AND because you are very squishy compared to the Meta champs. So while yes they're extremely annoying, I feel like they're overly-hated because a good Shaco/Teemo actually takes strategy and "brain work" because you're not just mashing buttons like a simple Irelia or Pantheon for free kills.

[@qgabri4931]

Yuumi is objectively a toxic design and there's nothing you can say to convince me

[@armorbearer9702]

Agreed, toxic should be used to describe behavior not champions.

[@lumpingawesome]

First Vars calls out my exact "win by preventing the enemy from doing so" playstyle (teemo/bard main here) in the anti-carry video now i get called out for my exact "Imma sit on the field and watch you die slowly" playstyle for pokemon. lmao clearly an apt analogy

[@Akasha1012]

Amaurot theme. A man of good tastes I see. But foreal, I love your use of JRPG music in these videos

[@fireballgx5]

0:18 I've felt more personally attacked before in my life

[@ghostgold400]

10:13 mmm thats not the case . if a shaco uses allucinate while he is invisible the clone walk animation its different . this not work with the masked shaco skin . but it works with all other skins

[@ItsTropiic]

I personally wish to give you a gold medal for the best comparison ever, that Mario sunshine level will for real cause you to rip your hair out, put it back in and then pull it out again

[@noahgray543]

To quote Day9: "if it makes you angry, it is probably good." Gotta think strategically: you *want* to screw over opponent.

[@TowelGard]

I think Yuumi's issues stem more from how powerful her heal is while being untargetable. In lane she's limited by mana but by the late game this becomes a non issue. I think they need to create a charge system or something for her heal that she has to activate her passive to refresh. Otherwise she can just sit on a fed teammate, boost their stats, throw out Qs and keep them alive forever. That last one is what enables the rest of the problems.

[@Catspirit123]

Fighting fizz tilts me so hard I could tip the club penguin iceberg by myself. The pressure of that flip with his burst makes someone like me who mostly plays low mobility mages feel pretty hopeless in the match-up as there’s usually nothing I can do to stop it beyond run and pray I can dodge. Even if I don’t give him kills, as soon as he roams bot and gets a double he suddenly becomes unmanageable ;u;

[@flameofmage1099]

8:40 That series is the best

[@sapphire--9375]

Toxicity is anything that takes away from an interactive experience. Teemo mines killing you from invisibility, assasins one shotting you with no counterplay, champions who are free to do anything while you cant touch them(snipers, yuumi, cc), making one misplay in toplane and absolutly suffering the rest of the game. Things that make you go “wow, there was totally sooo much i couldve done there” (sarcastically)

[@lonerimortal8]

thank's youtube for finally doing your job and notifying me this video :^V

[@cansan9403]

True king of all calamities is named very fun dragon because of its ocg name, which is V.f.d, which stands for vanisher fathomer and desaster

[@ThornnAce]

ThornnAce was here

[@kadenfinley1025]

Thanks ThornnAce

[@xCorvus7x]

What you said about these annoying features allowing alternative playstyles to exist is very true for Yu-Gi-Oh. Floodgates keep oppressive combo decks at bay, and allow some strategies to even be viable at all, such as Final Countdown. It could also be pretty funny to floodgate your opponent while playing some outdated strategy that happens to work around the floodgate.

[@metrux321]

They diminish your agency making rage more likely. Yes, Yasuo IS toxic, while Yone is just broken, because Yasuo can, like Gwen and Samira, simply ignore almost half the skills and aa's in the game. It's conditional, but if well used, he just takes the agency out of you, you depend on him making a mistake or you just accept it. The same is true in lesser or higher versions for all champions listed here, they stop you from playing, and this is, first and foremost, a game, so not being allowed to play defeat the purpose of the game, thus making rage more likely, and thus the champion is toxic.

[@Rabid_Ferret]

I feel like toxic champs are those ones where you can feel the smugness of the person playing the champ. Like slowly having your health whittled away while they sit in comfort and watch you trip over your own feet. They just exist to mock you.

[@luckydragon6067]

Love the Neath Dark Waters in the BG here Vars

[@soedragons3582]

when they aren't enjoyable to play with or against, floodgates in ygo are a great example, they are just set your floodgates then wait until your opponent surrenders, you win by using the biggest and dumbest beatstick ever created, you die out of pure boredom or your opponent gets rid of all the floodgates and he destroys you with his entire combo because you have no plan b or out (but to do that he must have ways to get rid of said floodgates and his deck has to waste space on spell and trap removal that can also be interrupted by a floodgate)

[@manhattan550]

"Cj all u had to do is follow the damn train." Thats shit still haunts me...

[@FfrankF]

What I would say is that if the game turns into a different minigame through the presence of one champion, that champion is considered toxic if shaco is present, you aren't playing league you're playing clown horror house simulator if teemo is present, you play mindsweeper if yuumi is present, you play 4v5 big boss

[@villejag5963]

Liss main here, peaked top 2 WW. Zed. A champ that theoretically can be used (and was during Aftershock meta) to counter zed. Sadly in higher level of the game zed is unplayable for liss. While yes, champs like Cass, Veigar, Viktor or Ori are very hard, you cna still contribute. Zed juts counters Liss in so many ways it's impossible to play. While being a ranged assassin, without constant jg attention on you he can easily poke you down with WQ, his R , while denied by yours has lower cd's so it forces you into submissive/rective game plan and zhonya slowing your scaling. Besides, a good zed player combo is unavoidable. You cannot outplay zed that perfectly executes his combo. Add mythic on top and that he's faster to kill you than everfrost to hit him and you're done.

[@neverendingparty2060]

I might actually check out Opera GX, I have been using brave because it use to be fasterer, ad block, filters and java block was amazing. Here recently though it has been more slow then helpful. Love you vars, living up And through that test of time ❤️

[@hawktondog]

Most if not all "toxic" champs can be defined with unconventional combat. And I for one love it.

[@haz1432]

As a teemo main, I can confirm that someone went to another lane just to escape me.

[@silentkb9726]

I play a fair amount of both Shaco and Teemo. I enjoy the play style a whole bunch. I think when you go to define TOXIC playstyle, I think it really is just a play style that discourages from (or doesn't align with the) the conventional game play that is socially agreed upon by the player base.

[@joriandekievit9478]

Ah, yes, an SAO Abridged reference/clip. Thank you for that, now i need to rewatch that

[@Austin-mg8pv]

What I think makes a champion toxic is that when playing against them it feels like they are toying with you before an inevitable death. For example shaco feels toxic because you can feel him slowly taking away your options so you know you’re as good as dead ages before he actually kills you. Same with teemo, every time one of his mushrooms go off you can practically hear his laugh making it feel like he is just toying with you before offing you. That’s why Assassins feel less toxic because you never feel like you’re being toyed with, you just straight up die.

[@Dzyntara]

thanks for including rell in the engage support section, if riot don't got me I know you got me

[@axylum4453]

I like that Neath dark waters (FFXIV ost) was used in this video. It's very chill