Vaush Calls Out Destiny For PhilosophyTube Tweets | DEBATE

[@destiny]

Click link ---> kzbin.info/www/bejne/laKzhquirslsgNk

[@Slim_Filthy]

THANK YOU FOR THE SKIP INTRO TIMESTAMP. PLEASE ALWAYS INLCUDE.

[@HerrDurkslag]

You even made it look like it was posted from a bot account. I actually had to do a double take to make sure that "Pinned by" and verified tag was real.

[@acciox3103]

DaFeels

[@Youboremenow]

Dude, did destiny just out your pay :). 12k a month or thereabouts? Nice.

[@smiff513]

@Joseph cringe

[@mcmuffin8784]

“I think we agree with almost 99% on everything” - destiny right before Every 3hr debate

[@crizznik2312]

Destiny's whole shtick is debate, so he's going to hone in on that 1% difference and go after it without abandon.

[@arthurcallahan4735]

They hold on to that 1% usually because they are wrong.

[@jayt7178]

@@arthurcallahan4735 or he’s wrong and he doesn’t do a good enough job moving them over. Could go either way.

[@abduramen1510]

Tbh this was very esoteric

[@crizznik2312]

@@arthurcallahan4735 I mean, that's up to Destiny to prove, and us to decide if we agree with him. I'm not going to say they are always wrong (but I'll admit they usually are).

[@ralyks7477]

Can’t believe in the third hour of this debate Destiny was arguing in favour of worker co ops and Vaush was arguing in favour of ruthless capitalism. What the actual fuck is going on

[@ralyks7477]

I’ve been a vaush fan for a LONG time and one of his favourite lines in so many debates is “i don’t care what you BELIEVE, I care about what you DO” so for him to now be flipping over to “eh, if you’re a socialist deep down inside you allowed to exploit wage slaves because the system allows you to, that’s fine.” is the single most inconsistent thing I’ve ever witnessed come out of his mouth. 100% of the value put in their beliefs and 0% of the value in their actions and the consequences. So disappointing to watch.

[@DeepPackChopra]

@@ralyks7477 hypocrisy is the only consistent element of Vaush's philosophy.

[@ralyks7477]

@@DeepPackChopra - if you just wanna rag on vaush then whatever I don't mind - but usually I do think he stays quite consistent on the majority of things actually

[@DeepPackChopra]

@@ralyks7477 his whole worldview is disjointed nonsense. E.g.: Vaush: "Not having democracy in the workplace is literally slavery! ...well, unless you only hire a few independent contractors, and who knows what kind of democracy it should be, or how it should be set up, and there's an infinite grey area to justify practically anything." "But not having democracy is EVIL SLAVERY!!!!"

[@TheAmazingOtaku]

Sorry you were stupid enough to be a fan of his.

[@acrazyone1]

Vaush: Let's end this on a positive note. Also Vaush: You've been a victim of domestic abuse, right?

[@ameen4620]

Took a page out of charlamagne tha gods book of "who the hell raped yo sista"

[@idontgetthejoke4813]

I remember being on Vaush's stream live at this point. He said he had a bit of an autistic moment there.

[@cheekybananaboy3361]

@@idontgetthejoke4813 yeah its unfortunate people dont know vaush is autistic or at least seem to conveniently forget because it seems to explain some of his actions. i guess its good he doesnt lean on it as a crutch for everytime he fucks up but in my countless hours of watching him ive only heard him mention it once and i dont even remember when

[@josiahclarke3535]

@@cheekybananaboy3361 That at least explains his shit takes.

[@cheekybananaboy3361]

@@josiahclarke3535 thats a little ableist but ok

[@jonathantybirk]

Vaush and Destiny are in a toxic relationship and neither can get themself to leave

[@haydens5321]

Their channels benefit from the relationship, so they probably will never find a healthy way to bury the hatchet. Another victim of the toxic lifestyle of streamers imo. It's sad to see.

[@morgangreen2601]

Competition is good for consumers. Their debates make them produce better arguments.

[@spigone2455]

"wait wait wait wai-" "Nononononono" Just like the good ol times

[@dinobravo6686]

I literally read your comment at the same time he said that, kinda spooky.

[@Malapher]

I cringe so hard when they do that

[@dennishernandez1991]

Facts lmao

[@smokeymidnight5032]

@@dinobravo6686 this doesn't narrow it down even slightly

[@jiajia123]

i would love to like it but its at 669

[@gumbiboi2063]

“It’s really difficult to talk to people who are openly hypocritical” -Vaush Summarizes this debate perfectly

[@cohloy6050]

They were about to end a friendly discussion when Vaush mentioned PhilosophyTube in passing and it started the entire debate lmao

[@Alic4444]

LOOL

[@thomasjohn983]

The thing that gets me is this 3 hour debate stemmed from a tweet.

[@TravellingMark5454]

And it ended with Vaush giving Destiny a link to one of PhilosphyTube videos and Destiny didn’t seem to mind it that bad. So there was at least an outcome.

[@blackfangofargentina]

@@TravellingMark5454 except it was the "people can't have housing when there's a housing market" video. He didn't seem to mind it except that the one time it tried to make a real point it was idiotic as fuck.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

It's always the little things.

[@ncrtrooper3841]

Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter...

[@SaraphDarklaw]

I live in the Mojave. I like it how it is.

[@themysticfedora]

@@SaraphDarklaw that's cool

[@charlespictet3046]

@@SaraphDarklaw Are you patrolling though? Are you?

[@charlespictet3046]

@@SaraphDarklaw Are you patrolling though? Are you?

[@avapup]

@@SaraphDarklaw Are you patrolling though? Are you?

[@kmhowardva]

Half of this debate: Destiny: “wait” Vaush: “wait” Destiny: “wait, wait” Vaush: “Wait!” Destiny: “WUH, WUH, WAH, WAH, WAIT!, WAIT!, WAIT!, WAIT!....hold on” Vaush: “Okay”

[@billieeisenhower406]

yes, very accurate

[@xaviercockerton6989]

“WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?” - Vaush in every debate.

[@amuro9624]

Then time stopped as they waited forever

[@drdavinsky]

I destroyed Vaush so badly kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKm0m519pqeMbNk

[@tibalt966]

Me: Destiny and Vaush seem to be getting close to rebuilding that bridge. Hope they mend it soon Vaush and Destiny: 4 hour debate time

[@crizznik2312]

I mean, if that's not rebuilding a bridge in Destiny's world, I dunno what is.

[@bc9554]

destiny doesnt build bridges he builds toll roads

[@timschulz3714]

This discussion was very civil. Consider the bridge built.

[@maggiepaul5911]

That bridge is gone. Isn't vaush still associated with some of the people that screwed him over? I think Destiny made it clear that was a line.

[@seanmatthewking]

@Tim Schulz Civil? This is about as civil as the Cold War.

[@retainable8223]

t h i s a r c w i l l n e v e r e n d

[@hlary8320]

the leftie arc has evolved into the political activism arc

[@magz1868]

nor should it

[@MarketingMovies1337]

And I thought DBZ had fillers

[@joaovitorreisdasilva9573]

>this arc will blow up in 5min >2 years and 200 episodes later...

[@JeyPeyy]

It's Vaush's time to go on an neoliberal arc

[@richardtorres5518]

Vaush is LITERALLY telling you he’s a bad faith actor. He’s confessing that he’s more concerned with protecting his ideology than being factually accurate and having cohesive arguments.

[@Rohtix]

Yeah, I don't know why they continued past that. It's all for nothing really, hence why he argues against his own beliefs when it suits him.

[@richardtorres5518]

@@Rohtix Destiny really gave this guy the benefit of the doubt and has so in all of the debates I’ve watched them engage in. That being despite Vaush deliberately making his position impossibly ambiguous so that it can never be properly unpacked and dismantled. He’s more interested in ideology than actually being right.

[@Rohtix]

@@richardtorres5518 yeah, the impossibly ambiguous thing is what I was thinking. Vaush wiggles past anything that can nail him down and it's obvious, but the frustration is just that, you can't nail him down

[@synlion]

@@Rohtix Vaush even states the only thing he really cares about. It’s winning. He only cares about winning.

[@SlayingSin]

It's the cultish Marxism that fails.

[@Derlo123]

So this is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object

[@stefm.5947]

Vaush is not an immovable object he's just a moron lol

[@stapleshomecentre1697]

@@stefm.5947 switch em around

[@bc9554]

What does Vaush being fat have to do with anything

[@nopenope5035]

@@stefm.5947 lol didnt he move quite a bit in this one? I only caught a part of it and it was the 'i guess i agree if you frame it like this' part

[@kasuo7039]

@@stapleshomecentre1697 lol vaush hahd no idea what he believed before the debate. Just wait for him to have the same position has destiny in a month

[@darkfluid5004]

Got to love how destiny and vaush comment section about the debate are opposite to one other.

[@craydogdog1530]

So, who's right?

[@adamcaldwell4624]

TRUE

[@darkfluid5004]

@@craydogdog1530 Personal opinion, I hear people say vaush plan on making a socalist pac for the midterm so I am waiting.

[@toby9364]

I hopped back and forth and Vaush’s chat is just cancerous , vaush opened with “criticize system not people” and then contradicted himself from there on, rather dishonest. However, destiny really seems to have a hate boner for just about everything in the world. I hope he’s doing okay up there bc he seems unwell.

[@MaxSnowDude]

@@toby9364 no vaush never said only criticiz systems. He said he generally criticized them more and doesn’t usually criticize single people. He can critique individual people

[@ricis0nline]

Basically Vaush's argument is that businesses can do whatever as long as they put a pride sticker somewhere in their office

[@youtubeviolatedme7123]

Sort of? His argument is more about criticizing capitalism for enabling a business to do whatever as long as they put a pride sticker somewhere in their office.

[@abacus892]

Ok, I don't agree w/ Vaush or Destiny on everything, but they're the only 2 streamers that can keep my attention for a 4 hour stream

[@10kbrandon80]

True only these two can keep me this interested

[@Goriaas]

@@10kbrandon80 you'll grow out of the "means of production" BS soon enough you'll be tired of hearing that phrase

[@alledzebu1975]

Am in awe with just how amazing each of them are at debating, the constant back and forth within the two is something i find quite enjoyable... The problem is, that i dont feel i have a solution to the problem, am left in a limbo, not knowing exactly who is right ...

[@alledzebu1975]

Not only that, but... Hearing both of this guys for more than a year have made me substantially better at getting my points across with people in general too, funnily enough, in topics that are not even related to politics.

[@phadedlife]

@@Goriaas what the fuck does this even mean

[@TheGIGACapitalist]

Vaush admitting that online lefties need to do more was such an easy thing to agree with. He literally plans on starting a PAC. All he had to say was "Yeah they should support my PAC once I get started".

[@hochmeisterr]

that will be the Ultimate Virtue Signal on twitter so ppl like Brianna and jimmy better do it less they get exposed for the hacks they are.

[@luctapia]

he did say he was going to bully the rich lefties into the pac which would be based

[@luctapia]

@Joseph true

[@neoone3719]

@Joseph Aren't you a hamster? All you do is run on a wheel all night. Don't be a hypocrite bro

[@Nick-oo5lh]

@Joseph ik ur trolling, but diets and working out makes u feel better...

[@racco_0_n]

did Vaush really say the south was just "fine" after the civil war? their entire economic structure was totally collapsed and those states entered a state of economic depression that lasted for generations

[@Aeruthus]

On top of that their railway system still hasn't recovered after Sherman decimated it.

[@seanmac1793]

I wish destiny know history better. I die inside a little bit when people spew bullshit like that but he doesn't have the knowledge to correct them

[@davidbarroso1960]

yes but it continued to exist and the system was replaced. If landlords stopped being landlords, nobody could rent

[@sassymedea3065]

He also acted like southerners didn't just institute another version of slavery the black codea, vagrancy laws that specifically targeted black people for slave prison labour, sharecropping which was essentially serfdom and didn't end untill the mid 1940s

[@AcolyteOfNone]

It never truly recovered

[@Maehedrose]

I absolutely agree with Destiny's rant about how doing good and giving to others is important. It makes me sad that so few people in his audience seemed to understand this. I live on disability right now and I still go out of my way to help others whenever I can; I'm not rich, I can't change lives, but I can pay for someone's breakfast at McDonald's, or donate $20 to their kid's birthday when I see they're shopping for the party. Those things won't change anyone's life but they will change their day and remind them that there are still good people in the world.

[@kindredspirit9703]

I think you might have misunderstood what these people were saying. No one is saying that helping others is bad, only that there is a difference between failing to do something good and doing something that is bad. Being a good person doesn't mean you do every possible morally good thing (you only need to do some), but it does mean you avoid doing morally bad things. tldr; this is just a distinction between the moral necessity and supererogatory

[@thek2despot426]

@@kindredspirit9703 ... a distinction which is really hard (or outright impossible) to establish under utilitarianism, which both Vaush and Destiny subscribe to.

[@Morhpocelionate]

I think almost everyone in his audience agrees that people that advocate for a more ethical organization of a business should organize a business in that way.

[@ira233]

Yea some people are rly stupid and selfish

[@IamHydePark]

I literally heard one argument... Following your principles is the most important thing. Talk the talk, walk the walk... I do not know how people deduce anything else

[@ivanmurray8541]

True professionals beta test arguments against their moms.

[@Azraelmaximilian]

*BEYTA test

[@EdKidney33]

“With great power doesn’t necessitate any responsibility” - Vaush

[@mdaddy775]

He's the anti-Uncle Ben!

[@coasterthekid8867]

Yeah, this is the real world, there are no heroes.

[@lordofleaves257]

He's so lame honestly. I feel like the only reason he seems reasonable is because he is constantly forced to concede to the more ridiculous points

[@lukasthedark8478]

Unless you’re open carrying, in which case it absolutely does.

[@AustinRxxxx]

@@lukasthedark8478is this about Rittenhouse? What are you saying

[@ObesetoBeast]

Ahhhh, my two dads arguing again. Just like my childhood. Amazin.

[@1AMRamen]

What were your thoughts on this debate? Just curious

[@mellvins0059]

Bro that’s gay

[@gaussminigun]

Your mom had two dads

[@veespa_]

“you have two daddies? what a mess! amazin!”

[@Tocinos]

plot twist, 2 cis women adopted obesetobased, then transitioned

[@wyvernlord23]

This is the song that doesn't end. It just goes on and on my friend.

[@breed187]

Some people started singing it...

[@snooglers]

@@breed187 what is this? I don’t know what this is.

[@kennythawsh]

@@snooglers good.

[@bucko2307]

@@snooglers nostalgic yet very ominous.

[@Bolizen]

cause it goes on and on and on and it goes on and on and ooooon, yeah I throw my hands up in the air sometimes

[@Baskeva]

I love it... Vaush: "I think misleading content is okay if it leads people in the right direction..." Also Vaush: "Let's not talk about the right, because they don't care about misinformation..." Like, what!? xD

[@adrian-dragosbalaban6401]

y'all got a timestamp for those fries?

[@lukasthedark8478]

@@adrian-dragosbalaban6401 I’m new to this scene, what does “fries” mean in this context

[@adrian-dragosbalaban6401]

@@lukasthedark8478 bro, I dunno. I guess I meant a burger or sauce or sth like that lol

[@lukasthedark8478]

@@adrian-dragosbalaban6401 so basically you were asking for the source and just used the word fries to say that what vaush said is “tasty” in a sense? I thought I had missed some new slang lol

[@Telthar]

Vaush has been pretty naked in his thoughts on this. Any tactic is acceptable so long as it brings about the end he wants. This includes: misleading statements, hyperbole, flat out lying, changing your principles to aide in promoting your ideology, etc. He has, I think, flatout said the only thing that matters is gaining power.

[@wizzzer1337]

has Destiny unlocked Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan yet?

[@lordfifth3106]

DONT TAKE NATHAN’S EYES

[@RAISEYOURDONGERS1]

This was a glimpse of his Tsukuyomi

[@yorhahoudini4531]

He has, he took Hasan's eyes

[@chillbill1929]

This got me good lmao

[@Lightningkuriboh]

@@lordfifth3106 is this an ongoing meme? It should be.

[@MrKnuxer]

"Doesn't fit my aesthetic" is the most telling statement of this entire argument

[@seanmac1793]

The phrasing to says so much.

[@iamcosma7065]

Yes doesn’t fit his aesthetic as a upper middle classed privileged kid who has never worked a hard day in his life to take easy money....

[@arobot4398]

@@iamcosma7065 Who Destiny or Vaush? I think I may have missed who said that :/

[@valruin3331]

@@arobot4398 Vaush said it

[@josiahclarke3535]

@@Mercurystars4202 And the grift goes on

[@AkkadDaily]

"We have N number of slaves." lol.

[@IShockk950]

I get that it's a joke but its just coincidental that N is used to portray quantity in stats.

[@mobeytaguire8583]

Hello sargoon, I thought you had attempted to rebrand as lotus eaters?

[@batedawggg]

Dog whistle and simultaneously show you didn’t do well in maths. L.

[@KimmieSan97]

👀

[@ShortFatOtaku]

i cant believe anybody still takes vaush seriously

[@arlaghdoth4434]

"Being Poor is an Aesthetic" Ah yes. My favourite.

[@scarlet8078]

The only type of person who thinks (or says) "being poor is an aesthetic" is an id!ot like Vaush who has never been poor or even had to work a job for a living. Here in NY we call them "champagne socialists"

[@tking2199]

@@scarlet8078 preach

[@josiahclarke3535]

@@tking2199 Seconded

[@GameDogLeader21]

I thought the point of saying that, is that people try to appear more poor then they are to show they have survived struggle.

[@arlaghdoth4434]

@@scarlet8078 Here in Brazil we call them "Iphone Socialists"

[@TrevRman]

Awww shit, here we go again.

[@darthsitharibane1551]

Has Vaush just gone so far left he is back at capitalism?

[@lissie3669]

no

[@BlackBinderGames]

@@lissie3669 I mean he said its good to get rich in capitalist system, regardless if you plan on trying to further socialist causes. How is that not capitalist except for saying you are a socialist?

[@markpozsar5785]

@@BlackBinderGames what is even a socialist without capitalism

[@neronihil1710]

@@markpozsar5785 a murderer without a functioning weapon 🤔

[@someidiot4570]

SUPER CAPITALISM

[@zenleeparadise]

Lying about the details of BriannaTaylor’s death matters because it looks like you’re manipulating the truth for the sake of making a political point rather then having a political opinion that was formed in response to the truth. It makes it obvious that you’re arguing acab not because of situations like Brianna Taylor, but rather arguing acab because of some other reason you’re not owning and then obfuscating that reason by lying about these real life cases being discussed. It does loads of damage to these causes because the second people find out that their understanding of the facts of the matter were false, it makes them throw out any conclusions they might have come to based on those facts.

[@wesgannon4621]

This is an excellent comment

[@halfbloodprincess989]

Yup! I don't get Vausch's "it's ok if it's rethorically effective" point at all. It might be rethorically effective to exagerate the truth ('police murdered a woman' -> 'police murdered a woman in her bed') but nobody'll believe anything you say after a while, when you've been caught lying too often. That's a very risky game Vausch is playing there... Being (or at least appearing like) an honest person is very important.

[@MsHumanOfTheDecade]

@@halfbloodprincess989 it's the hard leftist truth pill. online especially in leftist communities, truth holds very little value.

[@mwellnow5016]

No matter how you see the issues everyone should agree on this!

[@REDDAWNproject]

@@halfbloodprincess989 because Vaush's entire mentality is that there is no good, truth or value there is only winning and he has to win at every cost. It's an abhorrent mentality.

[@furiousg3orge]

Oh god daddy and dad are fighting again

[@mafty_x]

I thought they were so close to making up

[@mypartyisprivate8693]

Do you have an older joke?

[@DavidGFalzarano]

@@mypartyisprivate8693 Yeah sorry. Caveman and Caveman.

[@hochmeisterr]

desTINY is the woman.

[@eman22017]

Their debates always feel like two sides of my brain going at it lmao.

[@billygowhoop]

I would have thought that the concept "practice what you preach" would be pretty universal. But apparently Vaush thinks moral consistency doesn't matter.

[@ThatGuyYouKnow23]

Vaush and destiny arguing last summer: :WHY ARE MY PARENTS FIGHTING EACHOTHER! D: vaush and destiny arguing now: YAY THE BOYS ARE BACK TOGETHER!! :D

[@corkyaherny]

i would like it had irish-laddy's gf tried to not get destiny deplatformed ... mr. laddy can (pardon my french) "pound sand" imo

[@MaynardCrow]

You need better parents.

[@iang7244]

I really don't know what to think of the dynamic between these two. Like they spend 3 and half hours launching silos at each other and it ends with Destiny giving Vaush a heads up about the twitch affiliate contract and Vaush linking him a philosophy tube video

[@JamesEmery6]

i busted out laughing reading this. 😂

[@DaveMustaineShreds]

That's how political disagreements should, and used to, be.

[@c.karnstein3299]

A guy that understands the importance of sticking to his virtues, starting to like Destiny more and more.

[@l.3ok]

I feel like Vaush and Destiny are different versions of the same character.

[@chaunceyloveshack9530]

vaush is destiny's child (not the music group, which is a girl's group)

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

They are alternate universe versions of each other.

[@bokajon]

nope. one is a turd, the other one is destiny.

[@TychonAchae]

Destiny is who he is, Vaush is the groupie that copied his idol.

[@michaeldromes3948]

Yin/Yang

[@CoalaCalavera]

I think they want each other, right in their feeeeeddd

[@Methoswicca]

How dares Destiny point out we're a bunch of white rich kids from Los Angeles California

[@universome511]

White? Maybe

[@hwiatslgeord2887]

@@universome511 not all of em 🤐🤐

[@universome511]

@@hwiatslgeord2887 true

[@billieeisenhower406]

you can't talk about socialism and freedom if you're white

[@liamlemay-fruchter5630]

that's literally me

[@1999_reborn]

Wooooo 4 hour vid to distract myself from depression

[@SnoopGotTheScoop]

TonyW

[@FlorianEagox]

Woooooo

[@reminos9444]

@@SnoopGotTheScoop Vaush TonyW

[@lawrence4301]

Stay safe

[@thelevelbeyondhuman]

Chin up bub

[@Phlinn96]

Every vaush and destiny debate: WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA WHAIT WUHWUHWUHWUHWUH WAIT

[@MrJustSomeGuy87]

Stah sta sta sta sta staaahp

[@Stew_Pid]

Imagine admitting that you're more concerned with being correct ideologically even if it means being factually wrong. This is why extremists, no matter what side they're on, will always be dangerous.

[@N19N90N9]

I'm an extremist and I would never do that, no self-respecting extremist would.

[@jdjenk04]

I imagine that he only thinks this because he just assumes his ideology is inherently correct and cannot be incorrect on any issue.

[@derpestarzt]

@@jdjenk04 he'd have fit perfectly as an inquisitioner.

[@Supreme_Debaucher]

​@@derpestarzt*Inquisitor

[@HeartlessRival]

​@@Supreme_Debaucher*Inqwizshitor

[@johnwilke4778]

Imagine watching this for actual commentary and not entertainment value

[@Hannibal082]

What is your profile?

[@beachparking3967]

Oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah

[@xa1313]

I Love, that some people are so harcore Stans, that they still defend that train wreck.

[@Hannibal082]

X Æ A 13 What is your profile name

[@xa1313]

@@Hannibal082 It's a stripper's name.

[@Guitarmaster7272]

Basically 2 hours of them trying to figure out which principle they disagree with by calling out loosely related hypotheticals. Basically Destiny places high moral priority on practicing what you preach or your preach becomes ineffective. Vaush places high moral priority on messaging. Basically Vaush thinks if you have the right messaging, you don't have to practice what you preach so long as result of your messaging is a net positive. So if you're rich off of leftist messaging, you don't have to adhere to your own messaging so long as you convince at least 2 others with the messaging. Take veganism for example. I'm sure Vaush is the type of person that would say "Oh you shouldn't eat meat", but goes ahead and eats meat because he believes his messaging is providing a net positive in hoping there's a net loss in meat consumption even though he eats it. And Destiny is basically saying there is no net positive because if they see a person eating meat while telling people not to eat meat, the messaging won't mean jack shit.

[@mercedesmaynard3194]

Hard agree, actions always speak louder than words.

[@goddessrick8734]

I feel like Destiny has made this point a few times. There's being neutral and there's being objective. Vaush is making an objective point to a degree when he essentially say we need to empower the left even if that means ignoring some hypocrisy. I agree with Destiny ultimately but dislike the neutral both sides are just as wrong if some ppl are being dishonest. The real world doesn't work that way.

[@SleekDiamond41]

I wish somebody would ask Vaush how many people are allowed to preach socialism and not live it. If everybody on the planet thinks socialism is neat, but lives as greedy capitalist, have we achieved Vaush’s socialist utopia?

[@richardtorres5518]

Vaush loves ambiguity in his language so he can later snake his way out of being trapped.

[@seblat1086]

And the bridge is burned before it was repaired.

[@DelJuvePiero]

Nah, it really wasn't that heated.

[@hochmeisterr]

Nah they kiss at the end.

[@avapup]

@@hochmeisterr nice

[@nopenope5035]

Lol no

[@Nsuage]

Lol it is a bridge constructed of fire.

[@GottaLoveShuckle]

This made me respect Vaush a bit less. His lack of understanding the difference between the two vegans not living up to their ideals was shocking. I thought I would disagree with Destiny more as this reeked of the "live in a society" meme. However, Destiny is completely right that people should try to live in a way that is representative of what they believe in (this is why I and many others are vegan in the first place). It's disappointing to see leftists such as Vaush feel they have no responsibility to try and live in a way that represents what they believe in.

[@Relisoc]

I like vaush a lot but his whole 'im a consequentialist' thing reeeally gets on my nerves.

[@GottaLoveShuckle]

@@Relisoc Yup, and there is no reason being a consequentialist means you shouldn't try to live in a way that is representative of what you believe.

[@simon8242]

@@rinneganofrage7206 Destiny believes in maximizing his own wellbeing. Going vegan wouldn't do that for him, as he has stated multiple times.

[@solarblitz4524]

@@rinneganofrage7206 how is his negligible contribution to environmental harm a harm to every humans wellbeing?

[@hehexd8319]

@@rinneganofrage7206 What? LOL.

[@trevorserra2207]

I think lying should be avoided for 2 reasons. 1, lying to people literally pushes them away from your side when they find out about it. 2, I think that telling the truth is a big part of having integrity, it makes you a better person.

[@josiahclarke3535]

Problem is a lot of people don't care about integrity.

[@Dave-on3mf]

I'm so happy mom and dad are fighting again

[@MaxSnowDude]

Their most boring and semantic argument yet

[@kjk607]

EASILY

[@idontgetthejoke4813]

They really got caught in the weeds in this one. I liked the start of this conversation but it eventually got to a point where both of them were incapable of truly understanding the words coming out of each others mouths.

[@k8tempo428]

I Don't Get The Joke yeah, there were several points in the discussion where i feel like if one of them just said, “okay let’s step back and reframe the argument” it could’ve ended like 2 hours earlier

[@cheddahc6686]

wasnt boring, but yea this wasnt very productive. pretty unbearable from both perspectives i imagine

[@mannyoftheeast3318]

It wasn't boring. It was good to see Vaush exposed for being a weasel.

[@FirelinkBonfire]

Destiny: "Moral neutrality is when you do something legal that another person would do if you refused, right?" Vaush: "Yes." D: "Slaves were legal once." V: "That's different, but I can't explain how."

[@anorakquest4004]

he explained how in the video?

[@saulgoneman]

@@anorakquest4004 His explanation was dogshit. His argument only works if you think that if you don't buy slaves at a slave auction, those slaves will just be freed lmao. Its also quite funny to see a socialist argue that the decommodification of land is an impossibility.

[@fidget0227]

@@saulgoneman He didn’t say it was an impossibility period, he said it was inevitable in the capitalist economy we live in. Both share ideals that eventually we can decommodify land, but that’s not the argument. Commodifying things like land is an absolute inevitability in capitalism, it’s the whole point. Slavery, however, is not, for obvious reasons. It’s a poor analogy in the first place.

[@stravinci4705]

@@saulgoneman No, he said that it would decrease the demand for slaves and that the slave trade would put fewer slaves to market as a result. He also didn't say that decommodification of land was an impossibility, he in fact advocated for it explicitly. However, a leftist (or anyone) choosing not to rent out a property does not have the decommodification of land as an outcome, making it irrelevant to the moral question at hand.

[@stravinci4705]

Moral neutrality has nothing to do with what's legal and neither of them said such

[@the-renegade]

Vaush: What's up? Can a loc come up your crib after this debate? Destiny: Man... I'm not finishing this statement, heh.

[@bobjenkins4925]

Don't hate me because I value people's morality from their consistency homie maybe if you got rid of that old yeeyee ass 5th grade consequentialist outlook & valued consistency you'd get some pepes in your chat. Better yet, maybe Abigail will come on the chat when she stops dressing up as an arsonist or vampire or whoever she dressing up as... Streamaaaaah

[@the-renegade]

@@bobjenkins4925 HA!

[@georgbergsten6050]

@@sa-mp5iw not a man of culture I see

[@theleftywhoknocks4051]

When 2 people are both right and wrong and continue to talk past eachother. Granted I enjoy listening to you two yell at eachother. Its like a mirror game

[@avapup]

Feels like it's always that way when they talk to each other, both are right wrong, and will talk past each other trying to find holes in each other's arguments.

[@lholliday198]

i'm pretty sure we only had one socialist here claiming that socialists profiting off of a system they deem morally reprehensible is not only OK, but preferable to capitalists doing the same thing.

[@MarceloAbans]

I felt the same way, like "Guys! The fuck are you arguing about now?" It's almost like both seem to want the narrative they don't like each other and have to feel around to see what pinches, and then bitch about it.

[@MaxSnowDude]

@@lholliday198 I think it’s slightly more nuanced than that. I think people should maximize their conditions without exploitation. Because people live in capitalism. Wanting to live more than a subsistence living is ok. But destiny has a point about the online left aestheticizing being poor but I don’t think that precludes them from being socialist

[@theleftywhoknocks4051]

@@MarceloAbans I can tell destiny doesn't like lefties and it just kinda feels like he uses the one lefty he kinda likes as the beating horse of all his gripes with the scene. Which destiny's gripes are often valid. But when he starts saying the misinformation on both sides is equal. Im gone. I mean if we're talking in pure volume sure. But the amount of harm done isn't even close. Its not. And idk when or if (cuz I haven't listened to all of this. Only the last hour) it was mentioned or clarified but if destiny isn't holding to consequencialism (spelling?) then I dont know or care about his feelings about these people. I couldn't compare philosophy tube and BJG as if they're comparable.

[@RHatcherMD]

"I despise the commodification of property." "Landlords are necessary." "I make way more than my landlord."

[@zestylem0n]

This is the first sign that vaush is far too lazy to research or think out his arguments beforehand. Destiny was literally writing down his arguments and watching vaush change his mind each time he answered the same question, only for vaush to deny that he's changing his mind. This has led him to where he is today where he has cringe extremist takes that he pulls out his ass while also thinking he's the smartest guy in the room.

[@xXMc1ovinXx]

actually blows my mind when Vaush makes a claim, destiny writes it down, and then a few minutes later vaush claims he never said that lol

[@willburke6361]

Vaush literally asked Destiny "what have I morphed on" and Destiny stumbled, basically saying "generally, rhetoric..." then he pulled up the tweets, where Vaush didn't morph on a single position.

[@johnd1047]

@@willburke6361he literally did🤣🤣🤣he wouldn’t own shit, and I’m 2/3 the way through and he’s contradicted himself 6-7 times. Intellectually lazy, ridiculously egotistic, blatant disregard for humility. You’re actually lost in the sauce🤦‍♂️

[@KJDogluv]

It’s cute how jealous you are 😂

[@woody7652]

Let's make this a weekly/monthly thing.

[@camron.w1841]

Lets not

[@brokentos4546]

Its like drinking except only with the hangover

[@Substantial-hf1rm]

They'd kill each other by the end of the year

[@bobDotJS]

"oh shit, Destiny pointed out to my audience just how unethical and inconsistent I am. Can't ever talk to him again, it's too dangerous!"

[@frankmerker630]

This is how Vaush became the intellectually supreme being, far outpacing all of us mere mortals. The failure of comprehending and rationalizing his position falls on us, not him, for he can do no wrong no matter what

[@a-dashof-pepper4710]

"Live the values that you preach!" You can disagree with Destiny, I do a lot. But goddammit he's right here.

[@icedancer2963]

@@rinneganofrage7206 iirc he at least said he sucked for doing it and that it was unethical not neutral

[@romanski5811]

Even though I agree, I also don't want nazis living the values that they preach. I don't know, I'm kind of conflicted.

[@apparentlad]

@@romanski5811 right. On one hand, it will expose people with shitty beliefs and we can try to correct them afterwards. But is it better to have them commit terrible actions and be convicted (socially) because of them?Or to have them silently meet the status quo of behavior while festering on their shitty takes/only bringing them to other people with the same shitty takes? Idk... I guess there’s more... Honor? In being open about it.

[@donniejefferson9554]

@@romanski5811 To some extent I agree and disagree. I don't want them going out and killing people but at the same time people like Nick Fuentes just going out and openly bring nazis makes it really easy to tell who you should and shouldn't take seriously

[@Yatsura2]

@@romanski5811 Why though? The day Nick Fuentes values his preach, he would commit suicide and we got one problem less to care about. Its all about hypocrisy on all sides. Neither Nazis nor communists could exist without hypocrisy.

[@DzondzulaKarakondzula]

Not a socialist or anything, but i can't believe Vaush was arguing that it was morally neutral to not act in accordance with his ideology and beliefs when able to. Like, how did he get stuck defending that position? So surprised...

[@REDDAWNproject]

its almost like most people who beleive in socialism are literally wearing it as an aesthetic because they are trying to simulate what a morality system is without actually having morals.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

I mean I live in Finland and there are people here who would like for our social security system to not exist but I wouldn't demand them not to use it if they ended up in a situation where they needed it.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

@@fifiadan I didn't say they were the same. I'm just saying that people usually don't complain about right wingers receiving government aid despite being against it personally.

[@ignithas3150]

@@mielipuolisiili7240 Because it is fundamentally different. Argueably right wingers receiving government aid even furthers their goal of getting rid of it.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

@@ignithas3150 You don't think accelerationist arguments could be made in favor of leftists being rich assholes too?

[@XSpamDragonX]

I really don't understand how Vaush "fans" can watch this and not realise he just lies and says whatever he thinks will push his politics.

[@angusmarch1066]

Thats what happens when you are inducted into a cult.

[@wisetrollman]

Vaush audience average age is like 17-18 so there you have it.

[@thlkmura]

It's crazy how relevant this debate is to Vaush's recent Ahrelevant debate. He still doesn't understand the underlying principle of Destiny's vegan hypothetical at 50 minutes.

[@MamadouDiallo-fg1xu]

He does, the motherfuck purposefully gives the most bad faith interpretation every time, not just to destiny. I think Vaush is actually smart, and super tactical.

[@Disarmedaxe1]

Destiny? I believe that is a w*man's name.

[@ultimateblaze23]

Vaush a year ago: yeah eat the rich Vaush after becoming rich: well actually guys, it's all about the systems, don't go for individuals, don't mind me as I accumulate wealth in my piss easy streamer job whilst the rest of you slave away.

[@relaxed8365]

@The Bold Point >"eat the rich >"No actually don't eat the rich Such consistency, very logic, wow.

[@xiNerdLordix]

Braindead takeaway from this debate

[@BlackBinderGames]

@king of thekripy Did you not watch this exchange? He literally said its good to get rich.

[@SirLied]

@@xiNerdLordix man that's really interesting Care to elaborate?

[@troytaylor5746]

I’m a fan of both these context creators

[@ShawnWeeded510]

"Context creators" 😂😂😂

[@packersgb1207]

both sides are good

[@FerociousPaul]

@@packersgb1207 They're basically on the same side XD

[@troytaylor5746]

@@ShawnWeeded510 haha typo

[@FourElemental]

@@troytaylor5746 idk they do that sometimes lol

[@joshuabrown2799]

"Does it matter?" -Vaush, once and for all exposing his entire approach to politics. Goofball.

[@Alpine_Nightly]

Vaush: "Rhetoric is just the way you deliver your information." Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't rhetoric the action or attempt at persuading someone that a particular position or idea is true or false, regardless of whether said position/idea is ACTUALLY true or false?

[@OJ_Pimpson]

I just noticed that Vaush has lifted a great many Destiny mannerisms.

[@feruspriest]

I came to Destiny by way of Vaush. It was surreal, cause Vaush is destiny but less efficacious.

[@SuperSecretAgentNein]

“Waiwaiwaiwaiwait” “WAIT. WAIT. WAIT.” COMPLETELY different.

[@SuperSecretAgentNein]

@@feruspriest honestly disagreed. I think destiny gets himself constantly bogged down by his own ego. Vaush has a goal in mind and he really doesn’t waiver.

[@chillin5703]

@@SuperSecretAgentNein people REALLY need to stop rallying around these two like they're fucking gods to be worshipped or something. People are making this out to be some kind of "clash of civilizations" and... just... no. They're two guys with slightly different perspectives that get blown out of proportion because we tend to overemphasize the differences we have with those who we generally agree with. People act like Vaush and Destiny communities are opposed and ignore that they're basically the same thing, one is just more to the left. That said, Destiny objectively had the superior thumbnail for the debate, so take that Irish laddie fans.

[@feruspriest]

@@SuperSecretAgentNein Vaush's goal was to defend his ego from my vantage. Not in a "Vaush is brittle and dumb" or cringy take, but Vaush is a human who is equally susceptible to the backfire effect as anyone, and Destiny was pressing all the right buttons to enact a backfire effect. Destiny is right, IMO. Heaven forbid me from telling someone how to spend their money, but Vaush *could* live his values in a way most folks can't. He could be the dirtbag Richard Woolf on the business-end of things if he wanted.

[@shannond1511]

I dont even like destiny, but im kinda with him on this one. Especially vaush's explanation of how having a poor aesthetic isnt a trick, was super weak. Made no sense, its exactly a trick. Ots super frustrating when ppl that have no idea what financial struggle is to act like theyre "in the same boat"

[@calmingvoice8646]

Same. Vaush is so intellectually dishonest. Sometimes I think his only skill is self-confidence because it's not really his arguments.

[@markpozsar5785]

@@calmingvoice8646 i don't think he's dishonest. Lazy, inconsiderate maybe. I don't even things have even occured to him before Destiny called it out.

[@calmingvoice8646]

@@markpozsar5785 If that's true, should Vaush really have a platform? He repeatedly shows he doesn't know what he's talking about but is still popular.

[@giacomogiliberti2673]

@@calmingvoice8646 i just think that he is trying to defend the indefensible because he feels a stupid moral obligation to help breadtube

[@calmingvoice8646]

@@giacomogiliberti2673 But what he's defending here should go against what breadtube represents. He sounds like a vegan saying it's okay to eat meat because we live in a meat-eater society.

[@nothingtoseeherebruvna]

This is the content we need. Not that Rob9 or whatever she’s called.

[@asimplewizard]

Dan6?

[@Bombertard]

Who1?

[@MrOJR666]

Bob²

[@cyclonebicep2316]

Jim3?

[@cainethemane7757]

Thanos1?

[@porcus123]

It appeared right on my feeeeed but 4 hours is like a 4 course meal where you have to unbuckle your belt and stop in the middle to streach you legs.

[@laithsamamreh8581]

Truuuu

[@umno9830]

It’s honestly been so long since I actually sat down to pay full attention to a destiny debate. Usually I just let it play in the background while I work or play games and I get the same stuff out of it.

[@DietrichMischke]

@@umno9830 yep, going to be playing this while doing a bunch of hw later today

[@jamesnite2157]

I unbuckled my belt and got my 3.8 inch hog out

[@harrytalbot1507]

@@umno9830 i think thats a good way to do it though. just background talking, whilst hearing important talking points

[@jc_comet3946]

Dude, legit, when I heard you talk about the Latino dude who helped you dig your tires out of the snow, I almost cried. I know it's silly but listening to you talk about wanting to help people is so entertaining. The elevation and happiness in your voice is great. I really appreciated this video man, I hope ypu continue to thrive and do well.

[@accountnotfound4209]

Imagine this story told by a grifter. Not sayin destiny is a grifter btw

[@Frostbitten.]

Isn't there a similar popular story from reddit

[@colbyrob4814]

@@Frostbitten. probably? its not a very unique story, which makes it all the more believable IMO

[@Oppenslimer]

Wholesome af

[@AvocadoAtrocity]

Destiny made the real Vaush come out. 🤣

[@Ozcaty]

Destiny is SO right here it's not even funny about "Doing the same as everyone else is always okay, no matter your principles". A great example is the movie "The platform" which at the crux of the film has a guy who wants to make a change, but can't convince anybody else to do good because "someone else will do bad anyway". Vaush is literally holds the same view as that old (italian?) guy from that movie. "It's not morally bad because someone else will just do it". Unreal.

[@liamandrew2481]

Pyrocynical viewer?

[@soy_boy69]

If I didnt steal it someone else is going to steal it

[@ryohio4706]

That was an interesting movie, lol, It makes a good point

[@menkaragamble8175]

My shorthand take: Vaush believes utilitarianism exonerates lefties (the actions themselves aren't immoral) while Destiny believes Deontologocally (as a rule) that betraying your principals and spreading misinformation are inherently immoral actions, regardless of outcome.

[@REDDAWNproject]

@@JasoonPorter having morals and principles is good actually

[@conkerer]

Pretty much, though the argument weirdly wasn't about who is "right" but about what Vaush's personal moral system is. I think Destiny was taking the argument as a personal argument over whether he should adopt utilitarianism, but was arguing in terms of Vaush's conduct and actions. Vaush apparently didn't know this was going to be a debate and spent the whole time saying sure you can believe that but I believe this; I won't judge people for it, but if you want to go right ahead. Though things devolve wildly after that initial framing in the beginning.

[@derpestarzt]

Vaush would then not complain if Fuentes talk about "The Jews" after all, they are disproportionately represented in certain positions in California so Fuentes is just "getting ppl angry" for a cause, to try to get more equalitarian demographic distribution amongst laywer etc.

[@deathbysloth]

"With great power comes no responsibility under Capitalism, but it would be superogatory to become a superhero." -Uncle Vaush

[@0Peanutbutterjelly]

They have very similar cadence’s. Vaush was a destiny viewer for a while right? Interesting how vaush picked up the way destiny talks

[@PezzerOfTheHeath]

Pretty sure he still is

[@YomiTheBeast]

I get that vibe from xanderhal too lol

[@chillin5703]

@@YomiTheBeast Xanderhall is derivative of Vaush, Vaush is derivative of Destiny.

[@mystereee1479]

Bet we could hear destiny’s argumentative style in any one of us. And vaush in however many of his fans are here.

[@stephenH3369]

Vaush used to go by irish laddie depending on how long you have been watching that may ring a bell

[@rpardo150]

This is the exact content, I needed while lubing my switches.

[@NuttyAs]

Destiny: “I’m trying to find where your morals are at” Vaush: “Why, are you trying to make me look bad?” If your morals make you look bad and prove you’re inconsistent, that’s your problem.

[@moralapostel]

This Vaush guy just seems entirely spineless

[@adambernon6930]

He has zero guiding principals.

[@pennclick]

I don't always agree with Destiny but his editor deserves an Oscar

[@yaboyashh]

God can any of you redditors who spend 11 hours a day browsing Livestream Fails just fucking say you agree with Destiny without having to say that you dislike him literally every time?

[@Khymeira]

@@yaboyashh Babes, baby please, relax. Ok? Have a hot choccy

[@Disarmedaxe1]

@@yaboyashh based

[@yaboyashh]

@Nana I'm based as fuck and you can't do anything about it.

[@iamorbiting]

@@yaboyashh calm down dude

[@_laserpants_2203]

Vaush’s historical illiteracy surrounding the civil war would usually be the most torturous part to watch, but due to Vaush being Vaush it all was insufferable. His character was perfectly illustrated through this debate, he is THE bad faith actor.

[@justincain2702]

Vaush: makes reasonable point that Destiny agrees with. Destiny: Thats a good point, now here are some criticisms I have of that. Chat: vAuSH BraIN DeAd cOMmI?!?!?!? OMEGAloL. (And in vaush's chat) desTINY thInks YoU HaVE t0 Be poOr 2 be A sOcIAlist.

[@theonlygoodlookinghabsburg2081]

You mean. Vaush: breathes. Destiny: MOOM!! HE IS DOING THE "RHETORICAL THING" AGAIN WAGH WAGH WAGH!! loop for eternity.

[@haydenross5851]

Destiny’s chat is way more tolerable then vaushes

[@jackpalmer6024]

Someone replied to her tweet about her patreon saying they would pay when they got their job back

[@JjackVideo]

The eternal simp

[@oephry3253]

Ah yes, slavery is not necessary because we replaced it with sharecropping. How big brain of you Vaush

[@wowjack8944]

2:46:20 - 2:50:00 So Destiny is Vegan? Because in his debate with Vegan Gains he said that he agrees that eating meat is bad, because it affects climate change zoonoses and antibiotic resistance etc. ,but he still buys meat, because otherwise others would still do it ''Why should i take on this disadvantage, i would support laws however'' he said to Vegan Gains. He made the EXACT argument Vaush is making now. Now however he is debating that this indeed would be a simple supply demand questions and that it is better to act according to what you believe is right. I agree with Destiny, he is just hypocritical on his Vegan take, which is why he does not want to debate it.

[@wrongwaywalters]

I completely agree. Vegan gains made his points very poorly, especially with the way he tried to use the study to match his narrative, but destiny didn't seem to be logically consistent.

[@BigNothingMonsterMan]

Vaush "it's ok to lie as long as it pushes the correct ideaology I have". Vaush "all conseratives are liars" This dood has to be a grifter lol

[@BigNothingMonsterMan]

vaush is just such a hypocritical pos, jesus

[@captainhands3558]

Vaush gets so mad because both his parents work in the entertainment industry and he grew up in beverly hills.

[@frenkysprod.4223]

Wtf

[@CockatooDude]

Is this actually true, can someone else confirm this?

[@captainhands3558]

@@CockatooDude his dad's name is mark kochinski, he is originally from Pensacola Florida, now lives in Beverly Hills, Ca where vaush grew up. If you're really that curious you can look his father up on Facebook. He has pictures of a young vaush with his older brother. I know this because of vaushs old bodybuilding forum account said he lived in beverly hills. I searched for kochinskis who live in Beverly hills and had connections to the entertainment industry. That took me to the page of a model who mentions working with a Mark kochinski. From there I searched for him on social media. Baddabing. Check it yourself if you want

[@captainhands3558]

@@CockatooDude I'd post a link for you if I could but KZbin doesn't like that. It's all public info though.

[@CockatooDude]

@@sanguinesr0se Ahh fair enough.

[@BlindBloomer]

Two of my favorite streamers going back to back I love it

[@pigman3000000]

Great video as always, but I’ve never laughed so hard at a Destiny video as the last 40 seconds of this video. “If there’s any positive note that this has to end on - wait you were a victim of domestic abuse right? Watch this video on domestic abuse.” Great positive note there Vaush!

[@samuellourencojacob4358]

I am not even a Destiny fan, but this debate was pretty interesting. Vaush's position seems so complicated because he has no underlying structure of values which informs his actions. That's all. Every action is "locally" good or not, there is no fundamental principle he adheres to, only ideology.

[@famalam943]

Because V doesn’t care about being truthful or moral. It’s all About pushing an ideology. These people are the worst

[@martincerny3294]

​@@famalam943 People who lack any kind of principle or moral code are suspect. Just ask yourself a question. Which one of these two would be more likely to thrive in a nazi germany and who would be more likely to get the wall?

[@willburke6361]

I think he laid out his ideological foundations pretty well. He is a utilitarian, like Destiny, and he thinks that Socialist values beget good in the world, and the more people that are Socialist, the more Socialist policies are enacted which beget more good. So, while tons of dishonesty is bad, Vaush thinks that while some content is dishonest, it pushes people towards Socialism and effectively brings people over, therefore negating the moral harm of getting a few things wrong in a video. I think this is a pretty coherent argument, and I really think "honesty always good no matter what" is a more ideological position, which if adhered to in it´s fullest would basically collapse society.

[@Ken-lk9du]

I died when Destiny cringe said “I still feel like I’m watching a clone of myself” 😂

[@Ken-lk9du]

@@darkjord5823 he definitely didn’t, he helped a few grow more, but I think he’s mainly talking about how vaushs cadence, mannerisms and his word choice/phrases, resembles his own, I like both and you can tell vasuh has been inspired to a degree by Destiny’s style. Which there’s nothing wrong with.

[@mypartyisprivate8693]

Vaush has exactly zero originality. 100% disingenuity

[@theowlsarefun]

@@darkjord5823 Vaush acknowledges that he's heavily influenced by Destiny. He came from DGG ffs.

[@imransufi339]

timestamp?

[@Ken-lk9du]

@@imransufi339 it’s like 7:52

[@raphaelmark1489]

The major disagreement here seems to be that Vaush range of reasonable actions range from, "not making the world worse" to, "actively making the world a better place." These are all along the same gradient of reasonable actions where on the lower end, you can't really blame someone for adhering to the status quo and on the other end, someone choosing to do better is really nice. However, Destiny takes it a step further and says, "if you can do better than the status quo, then you should." It seems like Vaush is willing to compel you to stop the world from becoming worse, but he is not willing to compel you to make the world a better place. You cannot let someone die, but you don't have to pursue your ideals since choosing not to doesn't make the world worse.

[@danielwhitt9150]

I honestly think that this video has made me dislike Vaush forever. So inconsistent, so many holes in his logic, no firm ideology at all. Maybe he started genuine, but I'm getting big grifter BJG vibes from him.

[@nonstoptoob3126]

"If you have values you should live by them." "Nah"

[@tripledigit4835]

Consequentialist don’t have principles or values of any kind, their only value is positive results. Everything else can be thrown out the window for positive results

[@thek2despot426]

@@tripledigit4835 Even as a consequentialist, I *_heavily_* disagree with Vaush, as he both, in his reasoning: 1. Neglects to acknowledge the lack of moral "neutrality"/supererogatory acts under utilitarianism, as acts cannot be thought of as either morally good, neutral, or evil but merely as gradients of moral inferiority versus superiority as measured by increased net utility as a consequence of the act relative to other possible acts, meaning that he treats acting as an owner, and thus increasing the longevity of capitalism, is not morally inferior to the utility possible if no one was an owner, and thus capitalism collapses, and thus it would have to be replaced by another system (just like Destiny said in the slavery analogy). Simply put, Vaush, as a socialist, argues that if no one was an owner, modern capitalism would collapse... and it's not clear how, under his reasoning, that should be interpreted as anything other than a good thing, and that to not do so is to simply be a capitalist, which is a bad thing. This is not him having no values because of consequentialism, this is him just being a bad consequentialist, and; 2. His utter lack of regard for rule utilitarianism, and the utilitarian advantages to such thinking over act utilitarian thinking like he was using, such as the advantage of holding all to the moral standard to argue for consistent value systems (which shouldn't obstruct leftists at all if their values are actually worth believing in). Again, this is not him having no values because of consequentialism, this is him just being a bad consequentialist.

[@tripledigit4835]

@@thek2despot426 consequentialism is the belief that the outcomes of events determine their morality. If breaking your values and principles gets the desired outcome, then for a consequentialist, that is the moral outcome. Vaush isn’t being a bad consequentialist, he’s just consequentialism’s logical outcome

[@thek2despot426]

@@tripledigit4835 No, because consequentialism *_is_* a value system, so to serve it by pursuing the best possible outcome *_would_* be compatible with one's values if one were a consequentialist. The problem is that Vaush fails to be an effective consequentialist with his reasoning, which again neglects famous elements of consequentialist/utilitarian thinking, like the demandingness objection (no "neutral"/supererogatory acts), and the very existence of rule utilitarianism. It just seems like Vaush doesn't understand either (and I fear you might not either), and _that's the whole problem here._ As both a utilitarian and a socialist, I can confidently assert that Vaush's errors are absolutely not "just consequentialism's logical outcome." Destiny himself is also a consequentialist utilitarian, and I would argue a much better one than Vaush precisely because his objections are mindful of the above-mentioned properties of consequentialist philosophy.

[@piranhamae8982]

I know it was genuine, but sometimes it feels like destiny only did the canvassing so he can use it to criticize slacktivist leftists lol

[@10kbrandon80]

I see what you mean but idk

[@donaldduck4392]

Well, some of us are utilitarians still. So no matter why he did it, it was still good. Maybe we can get him to build a streamer worker co-op next? I love the "do left shit with efficacy to trigger the left" arc :).

[@Fe22234]

It was probably both. Or at least the latter was a giant bonus.

[@cheddahc6686]

i get that vibe too, i feel like no matter what sum of money/popularity they attribute to a campaign, it will never be enough because they did it from the safety of their home, unlike the righteous destiny who was "BOOTS ON THE GROUND" out in the real world making the real difference amirite?

[@shamefuldisplay9692]

@@rinneganofrage7206 Objectively did more, and becoming vegan as an individual has a negligible effect on climate change. CC has to be solved systematically, as humanity isnt going to spontaneously go vegan for the greater good.

[@Duckman1616]

Did Vaush seriously just say that appearing poor is an aesthetic?

[@somerando8615]

Vaush "I lie to my audience to promote socialism" Socialists watching this, "Maybe he should have lied about not lying to people."

[@hokimaki1234]

He did a segment about if lying is worth getting getting the results he desires, and concluded that lieing is counterproductive, because any system built on lies is unable to be internally criticized and improved. I think leftist generally are pretty open about their views, there isn’t a need to dogwhistle or lie

[@Generic-Username]

timestamp?

[@JohnCenaFan6298]

@@hokimaki1234 except he thinks everything relies on Power. So lies are pragmatic for that end. His whole philosophical system is a contradictory arbitrary mess

[@cultraclub]

Love how they both glossed over the fact that its ok to misrepresent FACTS as long as it pushes their ideology.... Please people. Dont ever listen to people who are willing to skew the truth in order to push their left wing ideology on you.

[@JamesEmery6]

When did Destiny do that?

[@cultraclub]

@@JamesEmery6 they both do it many times in the course of the video. Pay attention!

[@JamesEmery6]

@@cultraclub I know Vaush does but Destiny literally called him out on it? He made it a point. Any time stamps you can give me to clarify on this?

[@cultraclub]

@@JamesEmery6 I cant remember when exactly as this comment is like a month old now. But somewhere in there Destiny actually agrees with Vaush' sentiment of lying or skewing the facts to push your ideology. I guarantee you its in there somewhere. Just cant be fucked looking for it now.

[@VerbalDingo]

"Look at you, you're laughing. We've been at it for 2 hours and you're laughing."