Skaven 2024 Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 09182024

[@Banaanivatkuli]

Sigmar lied - warscrolls aren't free.

[@Midgar88]

I dont mind 4th rules. The app stuff sucks, physical copy books also suck. Thanks for doing the lords work Vince!

[@moldiworp9143]

*verminlord's work

[@jimskaven5963]

The archwarlock is just an example of how much of the "cool" stuff we had which is now lost. A lot of the the just fun stuff was removed from skaven. And the reduction of armor saves has changed how we play. We got our new plastic, but hot damn, at what cost? Even my opponents think skaven is just more boring to play against compared to 3rd.

[@fitzgigler]

I agree with your statment about how this feels like the most restrictive edition we've ever had. who would have thought that i'd prefer to have a battle line tax and 1 drop regiments?

[@starslayer2438]

List building feels really weird and bad in this edition. Because the rules make it look much more free and flexible than 3rd, but when I actually build lists, it feels more restrictive and railroaded than 3rd ever did.

[@christopherallen6865]

You claimed that jezzails and scourgers have significantly higher damage outputs than the other weapon teams, but I've run the numbers and ratling guns meaningfully outdamage jezzails into pretty much every save value, both with and without priority target.

[@thezoned101]

Really? I also ran the numbers and jezzails can deal up to twice as much damage as Ratling Guns on average. For example, vs Stormcasts: Jezzails: 6 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2 = 2.67 wounds Ratling guns: 10.5 x 1/2 = 5.25 let's assume two crits = 7.25 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1.81 wounds Vs other clanrats: Jezzails: 6 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2 = 4 wounds Ratling guns: 10.5 x 1/2 = 5.25 let's assume two crits = 7.25 x 1/2 x 5/6 = 3.02 wounds This is all forgetting that Jezzails have crit auto wounds, as well, which would slightly bump their numbers up.

[@christopherallen6865]

@@thezoned101 Yes, really. The mistake you've made in your calculations is that you've assumed the output of a unit of 3 jezzails compared to only one ratling gun. But ratling guns now come in 3s, at the same price as 3 jezzails. So you're giving ratling guns one third of the output rate they actually have now. I won't go too deep into the numbers but, accounting for both the crit (auto wound) on the jezzails, and the fact jezzails get a unit champion now for +1 Attack, when comparing a reinforced unit of jezzails vs a reinforced unit of ratling guns, the jezzails do approx. 6.7 wounds into a unit of 3+ armour save Stormcast, while the ratlings do 10.5 - so roughly 50% more damage. The worse the armour save on the target, the harder things swing towards ratling guns (they do more than twice the damage of jezzails into a 6+ armour save, for example) but ratling guns have an edge even into a 2+ armour save (where they do approx 7 damage compared to jezzails' 5). They also outperform jezzails into all these targets with Priority Target, with Covering Fire, and with Priority Target and Covering Fire combined.

[@thezoned101]

@@christopherallen6865 Ah that is true! I stand corrected.

[@massqueraider]

The way you fix stormvermin is you let them have the 5+ ward as well as the hero they're with just like dark elves. Then they are actually reasonably durable for what they're trying to be

[@rotm4447]

if vizzik needs to come down 100 then don't hold your breath.

[@VarnakTheDestroyer]

I think it suffers the "First codex of an index edition" issues, we saw similar from Tyranids in 40k.

[@40KWill]

Too bad I'm not buying the book or models of I can't see the rules.

[@gregmulka4618]

Gnawhole ability is really hard to use because some of us didn't buy gnawholes two years ago.

[@RobieFormeeu]

@@gregmulka4618 bought mine 2 weeks ago

[@ismael9914]

In my LGS the Old World player who is willing to try AoS simply bought a base roughly the size of the gnawhole and everyone is ok with that

[@spectralmoth9721]

@@ismael9914 How big is it, approximately? A 60mm base, perhaps?

[@user-mz2ow4ky7v]

​@spectralmoth9721 you can find templates and stls online that are really close to the actual model.

[@gregmulka4618]

@@ismael9914 Printer go brrrrrrrrr

[@toogreytogame]

The Deceiver is useful if your opponent sends his biggest threats against him AND you win the coin flip. Ideally you never want him to fight, just keep him moving. Big distraction while your small units take objectives and complete battle tactics.

[@simondale2833]

Do the regiments of renown have play in a skaven army? I ask only because they, oddly, included skaven as a faction that can take them in the points download. An oversight?

[@Banaanivatkuli]

They also missed Slaves to Darkness (and Beasts of Chaos)

[@VinceVenturella]

It's an oversight, you can't take them in Skaven armies.

[@thefetherd]

I know you previously said the acolytes are fine. have your thoughts changed in any way? I really like the models and was considering running a 10 pack in a skryer list. But fear that for the points the output is just too much at risk of getting lifted etc

[@AGloriusCrushingz]

Great if the opponent has no shooting, rough if they do.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yep, as above. They're fine, not a lot of dmage for the points actually.

[@MarkoSeldo]

Also, the Warpseer is Wizard(2). Or he was.... I'm currently locked out.

[@Midgar88]

Yeah he is 2 wizzy

[@mwyler3390]

Only now just realized the Warp-Grinder weapon team is on a 90x52 mm oval base. What!!??? Thats massive

[@Fortunes.Fool.]

32:16 The Aggradon army, or Lizardmen as they used to be known, aren't very flexible either. It's just how many 6 man units of Aggradons you're going to take in two drops.

[@spectralmoth9721]

@@Fortunes.Fool. Aggradon are the mounts. The Lizardmen riding them are Seraphon.

[@scottpfaff7804]

I might have missed it, but Vince didn’t mention the windlauncher globbadiers.

[@jonasandersson5838]

I think they're same as index? But yes

[@massqueraider]

Yea because they still suck

[@scottpfaff7804]

@@massqueraider dang it. The new models are awesome. I wish they were better!!

[@Birdmanesp92]

They have champion now, +1 attacks

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, and what did I say about things I skipped. ;)

[@nanyabidness]

BTW the faction pack isnt on the website anymore either. just the points. this is ridiculous, but complaining likely wont do much since its a fiat accompli already for 40k so they wont listen to (the currently very weak) negative feedback and change it.

[@MarkoSeldo]

question on the warp-grinder - how about it's play for destroying enemy terrain? Pop it out from your gnawhole and trundle over to their faction terrain and kill it. 3 rend and 5 damage means you've got a 50/50 chance of killing almost any piece of faction terrain in a single turn.

[@breakupgoogle4584]

Do they ever do new Battletomes for the earliest armies within the same edition? I think they did that for a few 40k codexs last edition.

[@VinceVenturella]

Not really sadly.

[@davidcampbell621]

Good review, a shame a lot of the cool new models don't get there yet. Stuff like the ratling warpblaster, Vizzik, and the new stormvermin are all fantastic models.

[@onikwa]

Nice video, aligns with what I'm thinking for my army. I can't believe the amount of book reviews out there talking about some seriously bad units as if they are any good. Good call on the doom flayers, them and the plague pack are the only new units I'll pick up i think. Glad to see a vehicle war machine actually be useful, now if they can just buff the doomwheel, my beloved...

[@onikwa]

Nevermind I watched the last section! If doomwheels AND flayers are playable this edition I'm in, despite everything else being really weak...

[@VinceVenturella]

I think doom wheels are max 1-2, but they are playable for sure and serve a good role in the army.

[@starslayer2438]

Fingers crossed for Rat Ogors (and a bunch of other rats) going down in points. Sounds like this book requires some serious adjustments to the internal balance. Also, it is sad that after seven(ish) years, they are still overcosting / underpowering 90% of the monsters... When will they learn? When will they make the big beasties good??

[@ssnakeshitful]

Its still comical to me that you can heal Lord Skreech with Master Moulders. It actually works quite well in the games I've played with him.

[@t4washere384]

Thanks for saving me a lot of money.

[@VinceVenturella]

Glad I could help!

[@Wedontlikeyourgame]

I'm watching the VoD and there was another Alessandro who you keep responding to and it keeps freaking me out

[@Dotification]

Sorry that the Skaven book is a bit of a flop for points, Vince. I'm sure that I'm not the only potential opponent that wants to see the new stuff (+ Clan Moulder) on the table, rather just clouds of Clan Rats + Jezzails, with some weapons teams sprinkled in. As a Cities player, I wish our new AF Brethren of the Bolt persisted as Skabbik's Plague Pack has--wow! Also, the Holy _____ T.O. had a hot/loud mic that made this 1 hard to listen to.

[@RobieFormeeu]

Ok, i have ordered everything to get all 3 lists in game. 355 euro :D

[@biowiener7825]

im going to play krittok and 40 stormvermin even when everyone says they are bad, they just look so awesome

[@kyloroux3988]

As a long-time skaven player I must say I really don’t like the new book. I think the index already seriously lacked proper intra-clan synergies that barely converted into meaningful output😂. The new book doubles-down on this by being more restrictive on your access to the small foot heroes that unlock a clans playstyle. I also think that the ‘good minor changes’ we got have further restricted diversity of list-building options in the book. The loss of wither as an unlimited spell means more ‘feels bad’ moments for your opponent that we as skaven players didnt really need another teleport. The arch-warlock ability change makes a warp-lightning cannon battery(now mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 4+ when using covering fire) they are now no longer a viable alternative to jezzail spam. Also Vizzik’s ‘Death Frenzy’ is useless with our paper-thin units. They will always die before getting that second attack in. Also it’s called Death Frenzy - where’s the death now😅. Some positive things; i am excited for this new package weapons teams come in sounds exciting and they come with some classic hero synergy. Also clanrats are still super fun units with awesome play🐀

[@firehead5555]

Do you think the new stormvermin will fit on 25mm square bases?

[@spectralmoth9721]

Chances are good, if you don't mind them standing diagonally.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yep. No issue

[@WinnerDave99]

Just played my first game with team rats...holy moly 6 ratling guns are all kinds of awesome

[@cmleibenguth]

I have to wonder if the designers kinda figured most Skaven lists would end around 1900 points and pointed the Clawlord accordingly to round out the army Based on this, I wonder how the SCE book will turn out 😬 So far, new SCE models are great, 10/10 all around Hate the 4th ed rules for the most part (not entirely, Palladors and Raptors are a redeeming quality, SCE floating disc spell is cool) I had some quibbles with some of SCE 3rd ed rules, but by and large they were great and an overall upgrade over prior editions 4th SCE rules are an overall major down grade, imo

[@spencerarmstrong258]

Thanks for the help with the shopping list, Vince. Made a couple additions and a couple subtractions based on this. Thoughts on Night Runner proxies/conversions? Cuz even at $42 for 20, I don't think I can pay for those ancient sculpts. Eshin needs love so bad.

[@VinceVenturella]

Clanrats + green stuff cloaks.

[@PrinceMcGiggle]

I'm just trying to follow the logic here. As stated on this show, this edition allows for the most skill expression of any edition of AoS. But then the test environment to determine the Skaven book is bad was playing against a player who went to worlds? Would a 'good' book have to be one that flattens the skill expression curve? Because that doesn't seem like something we'd want. Maybe I'm missing something though, great show as always!

[@VinceVenturella]

Sure, the logic is, how does this book respond to a variety of other armies when that army is piloted well. I am assuming I am piloting my army well and have the luxury of playing the same army where the other player is rotating. So my conditions were certainly harsher than what you might face, but it means it was not a situation where I was getting an unclean test because of play mistakes and similar.

[@torrrrraaaance]

New Skavenpalooza looks cool.

[@hailhydra7959]

Skaven Old World review when? You could supply the British Fish and Chip industry with a year’s supply of salt.

[@RobieFormeeu]

Vince thank you the lists, at least now I know what i am missing to play all of them :) PS what weapons on stormfiends i should go with?

[@VinceVenturella]

Whatever you want - in Skryre, shooty with windlaunchers, in melee, whatever you like melee.

[@dionyvice953]

Here we go

[@ThomFoolery12]

What models do you use for Night Runners? No way a hobbyist such as yourself would sully his brush with the GW models.

[@VinceVenturella]

Converted clanrats I did green stuff capes on.

[@johngleeman8347]

It's a shame all the monster-type units are lousy. I think the Hell-pit Abomination looks really cool, but no one will ever use it in their ratto army. :

[@matthewsandiford3672]

why not take slynk for the 100 points instead of the clawlord?

[@VinceVenturella]

There are only 2 valid units at 100 points in the new book - master moulder and claw lord.

[@matthewsandiford3672]

isn't it ok to use till next June?

[@DNolan1919]

Although I'm enjoying the game it feels like a flavourless season/potentially edition...

[@AJMOFO1987]

I’m kind of bored getting tabled playing Skaven and loosing every game I play

[@jamielaing5244]

Wow a proper early Euro friendly Warhammer weekly!

[@VinceVenturella]

Indeed it is!

[@JimCrimmins]

wait, this happened early??? noooooo... been waiting all week for this list discussion... all righty... :(

[@maxwellrpower]

I was pretty keen to get into AoS finally (player of other GW games for a long time) with the new Skaven, but honestly I think I hate the list building in this edition so much I might have to wait for 5th. It's so restrictive it just sucks all the fun out of planning out an army. Guess I've got a few years to get a ton of rats painted though!

[@philip6136]

Thanks I have a channel too now it's a bit random but does have painting. Hope you are well sir x

[@VinceVenturella]

You too

[@philip6136]

@VinceVenturella yep been doing for a couple months. The od drunk vid hear n there but other than that it's me with my phone showing my paint jobs etc. Hope you are well 🙂

[@philip6136]

Oh also a weight lifting thing n cooking. Probably random lol over 70 subs woop

[@earnestwanderer2471]

List building myth... “no restrictions means you can do whatever you want”... yeah sure... as long as you don’t care about actually winning a game.

[@Flaekkeren]

I hate the new book. Give me back the index!

[@cyriltournier]

Isn't it basically the same?

[@jarettduker1507]

Seems to be some kind of GW law that launch box factions must be miserable for the first year of the edition.

[@spectralmoth9721]

Either that, or people need some time to figure out more and more competitive lists/strats. (...or both?)

[@ismael9914]

Law of equivalent exchange They get gorgeous miniatures, at the cost of mediocre at best rules all around

[@autumnlotus6250]

Not at all surprised it's trash. I played a few games with these, and it's Astounding how paper thin the units and monsters are. I'm so glad I didn't buy the rules or the models, and just proxied. This is incredibly depressing, which was already a low considering how pisspoor the mew models were minus the weapons teams

[@massqueraider]

Literally all the new models are excellent looking at least

[@autumnlotus6250]

@massqueraider as a moulder fan: I hate most of them minus some of the rat ogres.

[@Midgar88]

They're a hard army to play. If you are new they gonna be a hard army for you.

[@autumnlotus6250]

@Midgar88 not new. I've likely played the game for far longer then you. Sometimes it's not player error. It's the army being bad

[@VinceVenturella]

Trash is strong, like I said, I’m having fun, but at the current points, the melee forces can’t get there. If you’re a hard moulder fan, the rat ogres and storm fiends are where to lean into.