Votes for Women Review: An Amendable Effort

Chris Yi and Wendy Yi take a look at Votes for Women, a game about the 19th through 20th century efforts to pass the 19th amendment, extending voting rights to all US women.
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[@ginsbu]

This use of 'turn' and 'round' is completely standard in many wargames and conflict simulations, including the lineage of card-driven games like Twilight Struggle (former BGG #1!) of which this game is a descendant.

[@pm71241]

Yeah... It's totally normal for the top level division of the game to be called the "turn".

[@Sephirothfrank]

@@pm71241 it's simply not.

[@jasonsmith1133]

The Shores of Tripoli from this company is great as well. Similar card play mechanism and each side feels incredibly different.

[@ThymeKeeper]

They did a playthrough and review of Shores of Tripoli on The Dice Tower.

[@Vadimaster]

The turn/round switch is grounded in card driven wargames, like many of the GMT Games, so for that audience it’s more natural.

[@BenGreen1980]

Yeah, turns being made of a number of rounds is typical. Martin Wallace's Liberté is also structured this way.

[@nathansutterfield]

Thanks for highlighting this game. The Dice Tower and your playthrough introduced and put this game on my radar. I was fortunate that someone got it and said they had too many games and I picked it up from them. It is a solid game. All the best Yis.

[@codym6376]

Great commentary!

[@pm71241]

Not played it, but I'm also skeptical about the many ways to play the game. However... You touch upon a good point wrt. These card driven games. Some of them fail to make a convincing connection between the thematic event and the actual effects wrt. "Cubes on the board". ... Sometimes it can feel a bit arbitrary. But the good CDGs really captures theme with game well. Wrt. "Turn/Round". ... I think it's pretty common for "turn" to be the top level division of the game. Oh...and as a European with a non-English primary language... I wouldn't worry about the US geography.

[@xseasd]

I have only played one game like this one and it was twilight struggle on Steam, and they use the same round/turn terminology. I'm assuming it's probably very common in war games just by how popular TS is. So if you have been exposed to that before, then this game would pose 0 issues in that regard

[@srpad]

It's funny that you think of this as a coop game first. For me, this was a head to head game game first, with a solo option and the coop variant is just a side effect of how they set up the solo game to work and not really the way they intended it to be played. (BTW I also did not like the Turn, Round swap in the rules).

[@nshaw1299]

There are cases where it feels funny or weird to historically play a role to win. Trying to prevent the 19th amendment is such. For other people it can be playing the nazi side in memoir 44.

[@ThymeKeeper]

There are plenty of historical games that aren't war games. That's an odd thing to focus on, although I guess I could be convinced that many people conflate the two.

[@ThymeKeeper]

That state code thing is a WAY bigger deal than the round/turn thing (which is still a valid criticism). It's mind boggling that they didn't include a reference for that. I mean, it's relatively easy to find online, but games should include everything you need to play IN THE BOX.

[@rockshrimp]

It would be awesome for a second edition with a slight update to fix up the turn/round vocabulary for the game, as well as adding the state codes onto the cards for better accessibility.

[@richard-mtl]

But that's the thing, there's nothing to "fix". As previously mentioned by another commenter, it's completely standard in similar CDG games (including Twilight Struggle) for them to use Turn and Round in that way, so for many of the players who would be into this type of game, it's completely normal, and they'd be put off if it was the other way around!

[@sherd7234]

I also HATED the round/turn swap (eta:) while trying to learn the game. It made me question every playthrough video I watched wondering if they remembered that it was switched. After I learned the game, it was only a small annoyance. Having said all that, I LOVE the game. It is SO good!!

[@tomasxfranco]

People are often overly attached to minor things and stubborn in the face of feedback

[@kevinbertram4828]

@@tomasxfranco I am trying to figure out if you are dissing @SherD or the publisher.

[@sherd7234]

​​@@kevinbertram4828 I was wondering the same. But it applies to me too, so I figured it was just people in general, including both me and the publisher/designer 🤣🤷‍♀️

[@cferejohn]

I would absolutely be confused if it was the other way around. I assume that turns are divided into rounds, as that's how it worked in old dungeons and dragons and pretty much every twilight-struggle-influenced game (of which this is certainly one) that includes those terms. I'd be surprised if any feedback they got was decisive.

[@Warriorking.1963]

I was actually looking at this game, but not being an American, the state codes is a deal breaker.

[@lawofgravity1979]

On BGG the publisher has provided a list of all the state abbreviations for non-US players. It’s a huge help

[@richard-mtl]

I mean, yes it'a faux pas that I hope they correct in any future printings by just including a reference sheet, but it's not a hard thing to find online, or even to just make for yourself once you figure out which are which. To have that as a "deal breaker" is a bit harsh, I find.

[@funkoxen]

Twilight Suffarage?

[@Andrew_NJ]

Good review. Just a note, while Wendy is technically correct and made a good point about people enjoy playing WWII games as the German side, I believe it is more about the strategic military aspect then committing attrocities as "Nazis" (not saying she implied that, just making the distinction). While this game is a serious historical subject, it is far less sensitive in that regard. We should be able to separate the fantasy scenario of myself basking in the glorious victory of denying my significant other the ability to vote in a "game" than actually campaigning on this in the real world. Unless we are to believe Tom would really enjoy turning Chewbacca into a carpet and annihilating the Wookie homeworld with the Death Star? Also there is a whole game series called Villanious...

[@ilqrd.6608]

Sure are reading a lot into it. It’s a game that is meant to educate. It’s not advocating being able but playing the bad guys makes sure the conflict becomes alive and it ensures you are engaged

[@Andrew_NJ]

@@ilqrd.6608 I believe that by making games historically accurate you gain education that way. I want to play the other side in games like this.

[@sauce773]

The color pallet on this game looks like an old school game

[@hondito]

I've noticed other games starting to swap round and turn. It's such nonsense. I see other comments here saying that's common in some wargame communities.... but it's a HUGE standard in all other games the other way. It feels the same as trying to all of a sudden swap deck and discard pile because that's how your group played it growing up.... There has to be a standard!

[@RandomPerson-nd2ey]

Not to kick a hornet's nest but... Are the female anti suffragettes represented in the game? Interesting history there that's rarely discussed because some people jump straight into an irrational emotional response.

[@_Cervantez]

They talk about this in the video

[@lawofgravity1979]

There are cards that reference this in the game

[@Andrew_NJ]

This missed an opportunity of being a pure 2 player vs. game with one side playing the opposition. Talk about a great couple's game (all in good fun of course!).

[@Andrew_NJ]

I honestly don't understand how we have gotten so sensitive that we cannot even play historical based games as the "bad" guys anymore or even discuss them. Isn't Villainous a popular game series?

[@RandomPerson-nd2ey]

@@_Cervantez ah. Yeah, started watching it and then got distracted. Kids, ya know how it is.

[@davidstigant457]

Man if ever there was a game-review for Chris to sit back and let Wendy take the wheel…. It’s totally fine to let your wife get a word in edgewise, occasionally.

[@ClasmanFilms]

Great theme, but this game play is bad. Real bad.

[@ilqrd.6608]

I don’t know why it was advertised as a coop game when it actually is a 1v1 game. I was so confused

[@kevinbertram4828]

It has several modes of play, including two player coop versus the Oppobot.