Votes for Women Review - Twilight Struggle Lite?

[@Shelfside]

Check out the written review here! www.shelfside.co/reviews-2023/votesforwomen-review

[@TheSludgeMan]

I think the swinginess of dice is an important thematic tie in for games like this. We often look back at historical events as being inevitable. But especially in the case of legal/political struggles, luck plays a huge role, and if just one or two conditions were different they would fail. To me that's sort of the thesis statement for this game. At the end of the day games like this should "say something" about the period and the reliance on dice is a very delierate choice imo even if it rustles peoples jimmies from a gameplay standpoint.

[@icaruspandas]

Great and respectful review. I really appreciate how you were able to articulate the games issues while still being respectful about the subject matter of the game. The game looks like it struggles to find replayability, and the rolling mechanic feels a bit weird to me. Letting the rights of women be up to a die roll feels a bit anti-thematic to me.

[@Alalea17]

I'm curious, what would you consider a better mechanic?

[@icaruspandas]

@@Alalea17 to be completely honest I'm not sure, I haven't played the game so I don't have the greatest idea of how it flows. My comment was more referring to how it wasn't exactly luck that brought the women's suffrage movement, and making it a mechanic based off a die roll feels a bit odd. Off the top of my head I wonder if maybe instead of rolling you had set cards that say how many supporters were added to a state? But you had to use each of them before you pick all of them back up. This way you could predict how many supporters you would get. That being said, I haven't played the game, so I could be full of shit lol

[@kombainasable]

honestly, it feels like the designer who did the disservice to subject matter. even outside GMT there are games which do so much more with sensitive topics, both with accuracy of mechanics, and theme, including from first time designers. this is Ms. Monopoly all over again, but trying to appear like a GMT game.

[@meenki347]

@@Alalea17 I'm a hex & counter Wargamer. And I've created an almost magical, completely non-luck system to replace D6. I originally, intended it for wargames. But it would work with any game that required a D6. Perhaps it would help Votes? I'm doing a lot of things. So, the world will have to wait a couple of years before it's published.

[@viktorkm]

Fantastic review! I belive this is the first review who dare to make an actual review of the gameplay, and honestly so! No one have dared to say anything bad about this game becouse of the theme. Kuddos to you for doing a real critical review of the gameplay not just the important theme! 👍👍

[@primordialblob]

A similarity-historical game that I recommend is "Freedom: The Underground Railroad" It's a great cooperative game that has some really unique mechanics and does a great job representing how hard emancipation was and injecting historical flavor. Interestingly, Academy games also provides a classroom guide to incorporate it into the classroom

[@Shelfside]

Heard about this one! Will have to take a look :D -Ashton

[@lioninthetrenches]

In regard to the unlimited movement, the game abstracts complex history and time for ease of play. In a game that tells nearly a century of history in 6 rounds, each round is at least a decade in theory. Plenty of time to travel across the continent. Also campaigners could communicate with others in different parts of the country to organise locally

[@anonvideo738]

I would definitely recommend going back to twilight struggle. I only got into it recently and it really holds up. The idea that you draw from a shared deck, and thus end up with your opponent's events is amazing. You can have turns where you just suffer through damage control, and you can have turns where you go on the offensive and sway a continent. (although like this game it suffers from the fact the lategame cards arent played as often)

[@Shelfside]

Oh I remember that now about drawing from a shared deck! I think now with my deeper experience of games it'll be able to be comprehended better. Cheers! -Ashton

[@twotonesmybones]

Excellent review, with very well researched points! Thank you for this review!

[@josephvandenberg2483]

Curious to see how much of the perceived gameplay balance was due to the Suffragist side playing the Southern Strategy. It's designed and confirmed by the designer Tory Brown to be a trap card. The Southern Strategy was an appeal to southern racist tendencies some suffragists tried to make. It's designed to be powerful, but it activates so many of the opposition's powerful effects. It's actually better to not play it as the Suffragists, and it supposed to be a historical lesson that appealing to racist tendencies is not an effective way to win. In my games, once we realized this, the suffragists won way more. I think that's a really cool educational tool!

[@Alalea17]

Wow that's so cool!

[@Shelfside]

Hey thanks for sharing this! A really good point, I had a feeling the Southern Strategy and its counter card was a teensy bit swingy! Again, goes into how thematic the game really is. I do think that the balance is so steep that even an experienced Suffragist player choosing to not play Southern Strategy still meets plenty of speedbumps along the way. We did actually have the suffragists win once, but that was in the 2v1 situation, and against an opposition player who didn't understand the historical nuances behind playing cards and as such, didn't play too optimally. Again, I'm learning so much playing/talking about this game which is really fun, but man I wish the gameplay was better for my tastes. Cheers! -Ashton

[@ArnoVdVelde]

Interesting how at one point the swinginess needs to be containted, but at the end roll, there is an ask for more swinginess by combining. Not saying this is wrong if that is the feeling, it is peculiar. I'd feel 4 might be harsh, but there is something to be said about a lot of the critisicms.

[@Shelfside]

Interesting question! While combining the dice rolling at the end would technically lead to a little bit more swinginess, there is a nice balance to be struck by reducing the amount of dice rolling. Hope this clarifies things! -Ashton

[@noizeemama3697]

Maybe they were trying to show how much of an uphill battle this was? When I first saw this game I said "Cool, I want it". Then I thought, "Who the hell would want to be the opposition?!" Then I saw the super boring board. Then I saw the $75 price tag and said forget it. Glad you confirmed my thoughts.

[@LoneWolf-zc7nw]

I am still waiting to watch your review for Cuba Libre and Ra :))).

[@Shelfside]

Hahaha! Ra probably won't have a review since its just my friend's copy. Cuba Libre I have to play it again to really confirm how I feel! -Ashton

[@cloudsRniceC0M3]

this game feels like a plane flight first your hyped for vacation/traveling! plane has lift off, wohoo! haha the safety instructions, then the in flight movie, some turbulence, baby crying...bored. finally... the landing! -nope gotta wait in our seat for another 30minutes '' how was your flight?'' ''ehh, it was okayyy...'' (not really)

[@JonTripp115]

There is an earlier game with the same theme called The Vote: Suffrage and Suppression in America. It's a 2-player-only game (though I think there's a solo mode now too) that caught my eye a few years ago but I've still never played it. It definitely has always interested me more that this title has. IIRC there's no dice at all, so that might be an improvement right there.

[@TheSludgeMan]

The lack of player aids is such a common problem now, i just dont get it. Its one extra card that makes a huge difference to the experience. Every game ever should have one

[@youngwillis63]

can't wait to play the opposition! great to see my political views supported by this game!

[@mikaeki5245]

Great review.

[@Shelfside]

thank you! -AShton

[@Cpt_nice]

Twilight Struggle has no dice rolls? Lol whut?

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

Ouch!

[@Alalea17]

Maybe the games tries to be a simulation, cause fighting for rights just often feels that repetive and frustrating. 10/10 No but for real, the theme is nice and important, especially for the people in the comments who for some reason don't yet have the empathy for people struggling for rights, which should make it automatically somehow interesting xD

[@Stevojay]

After seeing this- would love to hear your guys’ thoughts on another dice rolling historical game: Black Orchestra!

[@ClasmanFilms]

I agree this game was such a let down.

[@klimatpsykologi]

I spy an IKEA LÅNESPELARE

[@Alalea17]

Im wondering, is the game a little bit critical towards the centering of white women in common narrative about the topic?

[@buddhawasright]

Naw, that's Buzzfeed..

[@Alalea17]

I'm just here to say, trans women are women :)

[@Alalea17]

Even if they might have had three right to vote under the condition hiding as men. But some cis women did this too.

[@simtill]

Would you endorse trans women to compete in women's sports?

[@Alalea17]

​@@simtillI would endorse to reevaluate the categories how we separate who competes with whom. In some sports it's already done for example based on weight. Martial arts etc. And in the meantime: yes I would endorse to let trans women STAY in women's sports, because it's allowed in the Olympic games for YEARS and I don't see that there are no cis women left xD I would also not force cis women to alter their testosterone level, because we should not FORCE people to take hormones ;)

[@simtill]

@@Alalea17 Good on you. Let's make life harder for XX chromosome women! Lia Thomas smoked those feeble cis women, but that is no problem, right?

[@crinklechips6950]

Literally no-one asked

[@pfefferle74]

Honestly, I think it would leave a bitter taste in my mouth if I were to win this game as the "Opposition" player.

[@Shelfside]

It feels really weird to play them, and realize that you feel like you're not doing much, but have this built in advantage because of the really difficult Suffragist goals. Hence recommend the 1 player actually! -Ashton

[@yomerislame]

What a terribly boring and bland theme

[@Alalea17]

For cis men... who are playing the patriarchy side in real life today. Hahaha

[@navnnavn1226]

I agree. I prefer the thrill of German sustenance farming

[@Alalea17]

​@navnnavn1226 as I happen to be german... now I can't decide. (I'm kidding xD) Also I know nothing about the german equivalent to the suffrage movement and we don't even habe a game to educate me. :(

[@imnottellingyoumyname3050]

​@@Alalea17you are so boring

[@EuropeanQoheleth]

1:11 Ugh, rainbow flag.

[@sirhc8927]

I’m against women’s rights so this game isn’t for me. Jokes aside, I am happy it didn’t get better scores than Rising Sun. Was a bit scared there.