VRPG: Between TTRPGs and Video Games

[@GreatGreenGoo]

This has existed actually. The original Neverwinter Nights 20+ years ago, on those small 60 player servers with invisible DMs running around possessing NPC's and monsters to create stories on the fly. These DMs have access to a plethora of tools such as FX effects, libraries of creatures and triggers. It was an amazing experience and shocked there hasnt been a game similar to it since then. For me its not the asthetic of dice, or doing the rolls manually (although I can understand peoples fondness of that) its the fluid dyanmic story that interacts with the player and vis versa. Its not prescripted and thats the key. Having DMs in a video games making those fluid dynamic stories is an untapped market with a high demand i believe. One aspect of the coming advancement of AI is the idea of replacing the above mentioned DM's with AI's to create interactive stories. It wont be as 'real' as if the DM was an actual person (at least at first) but it would allow for people to experience a unique story that they helped craft. I am looking forward to see how AI can be a storyteller, but I dont think they will be a quality replacment to a real DM. At least not unless the AI was an actual AGI human level conscious being. If that was the case it would be criminal to chain something like that up to be forced to run stories and nothing else.

[@asquirrelplays]

Somebody else mentioned Neverwinter Nights! I had no idea that part of it existed. I had that game when I was kid, and I wanted so bad to understand it but just couldn't. I didn't understand any of the mechanics or the stats and kept getting frustrated because I kept dying and couldn't understand why. But man, yeah, that sounds amazing. Can't believe that hasn't taken off for other things, especially when you consider how big the RP communities are in other games like City of Heroes or Elder Scrolls Online. You'd think the demand is there. Actually, now that I think of it, towards (I think) the end of City of Hero's' life they did add a big ol' "mission maker" that people could use to make their own adventures/quests. Seems like these things have just been a side item instead of the main course. As for it being criminal to chain down an AGI and force it to run stories, that's how I felt running a 5e campaign 💀

[@rosecityandbeyond]

@@asquirrelplays Yeah, the main problem seems to be that it creates a vast space for free content that the publishers don't get any money from. There's a "market" for it, but not a lucrative one. I played NWN's servers for nearly a decade, but I only ever paid for the initial game purchase (and the 2 expansions). With the rise of paid GMing... there could be a much more lucrative market soon. As for AI DMs, I think it's the same as AI artists. Yeah a suit and tie somewhere could probably make something passable, but a human *using* the AI will blow them out of the water every time. I've been using Google Gemini to help populate towns, taverns, inventories, and giving ideas for quests and plots that I tweak and massage into some of the best games I've ever run.

[@thetrin]

Bioware also announced a game called Shadow Realms back in 2014 that was sadly cancelled, but it was described as a "4v1 story based dungeon crawler". The idea being that one person made the dungeon, and 4 players tried to make their way through. Essentially it was the NWN multiplayer, but blown up in scale.

[@MissFalcon]

Facinatingly enough the military simulation game Arma 3 has the most in depth roleplaying system I've ever seen! Rather than a GM they're called Zeus (with the lightning powers to boot :P) and can control every which aspect of the world. New scenario's can be developed on the fly and with how robust of a simulation it is you could do quite a lot!

[@hunbug]

This! They are still out there and active! In general, more games needs GM mechanics if you ask me. Also, imagine the possibilities if the crunch is automated. Something like Cataclysm DDA or Caves of Qud in multiplayer, with a GM... Yeah, multiplayer in depth roguelikes in general are a big dream of mine.

[@GreyTide]

Neverwinter Night and Arma 3 both have modes that are exactly like you described. It's called "Zeus" in Arma 3.

[@asquirrelplays]

I've been hearing about Arma 3, but I didn't know Neverwinter Nights had a mode for that. I only have a couple memories of that game as I was little when I first played it (and understood absolutely nothing).

[@AvenueStudios]

Happy 50th video-versary! Also 'flip the table' is the best thing on Simulator haha

[@SocialNomad]

I'm actually working on something like this right now! That is... if you mean 'working on' as in 'writing things down about how it could work just in case I ever get around to making it' It started as way to implement DnD combat in a way that didn't have a specific turn order but characters instead incur 'delay' on themselves whenever they took an action and different actions would have different amount of delay they would incur and whoever has the lowest delay would be the next one to take their turn. That would be a horrible to keep track of in meatspace using pen and paper, but a computer could automatically track the amount of delay each person has and adjust the turn order on the fly. This has kinda evolved into "What could I implement in a ttrpg if a computer took care of all the calculations for me?" with things like different effects if you hit above an enemy's base+dex score but not above their base+dex+armor score and keep track of lethel vs nonlethel damage so if lethel+nonlethel damage was above a characters max HP but lethel damage wasn't they would fall unconscious but not start dyring outright and different saves might also be affected by how much HP the character has left

[@ZarHakkar]

Same

[@asquirrelplays]

Hey, writing things/ideas down for your project "in case you get to it" absolutely counts as working on it. Everything starts with an idea, and when you write those down, you got something to work with. I have a whole vault of written ideas, and every so often I get to pull one out and make something of it. So yes, it counts! Anyway - that sounds pretty neat. I like the idea. Another person came through here and mentioned they were working on something to handle more robust game mechanics/calculations for a ttrpg. They joined the Discord and shared a little bit of their work. You might want to do the same! That's what this place is suppose to be about, anyway. Sharing ideas, making things, and building each other up. Also lol @ "meatspace" 🤣

[@dontblamepeopleblamethegov559]

NWN1 had closest to what you describe here. Some server owners gone lengths to do some godlike control over the game.

[@asquirrelplays]

I heard! I had that game when I was a little kid and couldn't understand how it worked. I really wanted to play it but couldn't figure it out. Never even knew about the multiplayer side of it people were talking about (though my internet at the time would have died). Sad I missed out on the experience.

[@jestagoon8408]

I like this idea! I imagine if you went down the route of making a full on improvisational video game you'd have a pretty rough time trying to directly translate the rules of a system like D&D to it. Imagine you're immersed in the game interacting with the npcs when all of a sudden you're locked in place and unable to move when initiative starts. That being said I could imagine a version of this idea where it plays out like a real time strategy game from the GM's perspective and like Baldur's gate or world of warcraft from the Player's perspective. The GM could dictate the behaviours of NPC's and voice them or possibly even use text to speech/voice modulation. From the players' perspective it'd be like they're playing a video game that their GM is making up as they go along. That could have its own hurdles, especially with prep - it's much easier to find an image on google of a character than to search for and download a 3d model that could be used - unless you had some procedural generation tools which might require the GM to surrender some control of their world, but I could see it allowing for some fun dungeon crawls in a contained space. With AI tools becoming more common I could see some of these hurdles being taken care of - maybe chat GPT incorporation could allow the GM to give each NPC information that the AI can use to have them interact with the world, so that the players can interact with their surroundings in real time while the GM handles the blocking and events of the scene - Maybe AI does the opposite and handles all of the technical stuff for you so that the gm can put themself in the role of the NPC's and interact with the player characters face to face. Honestly see this being a possibility for the future of TTRPGS - unlikely to replace the original hobby but it might create a devoted niche.

[@asquirrelplays]

I think that's the big thing holding something like this back. You wouldn't want to try and make it work with D&D mechanics (or any TTRPG). You'd have to design rules from the ground up to work in that specific tool/system. Definitely not meant to replace TTRPGs either. It's just something new I thought would be pretty interesting. I haven't tried it out myself yet, but there's a couple somewhat polished (from what I saw) mods for Skyrim that use AI to generate voice lines for NPCs using their voices. The one I saw being showcased was talking to Lydia, and the player could ask them whatever they wanted. One mod did it through a chatbox, and another mod just let you use your microphone. Lydia would then generate a response based off the lore/world of Skyrim, and was also driven by how far you had progressed in the game/story. It's a wild and really neat concept, but is also a HUGE problem for voice actors since you're able to generate so much content with so little required from them. Melissa Medína (voice actress) posted a really good video on her twitter about this issue. But, that's a whole other can of worms we're getting into.

[@starcaptainyork]

Bless the algorithm for showing me this, it knows all. It's funny you should mention the idea of exploring other types of TTRPGs because I've been spending the last few weeks writing a rule set for a TTRPG that meshes the concept of physical fitness and role play. A long time ago I had an idea, what if you created a video game where your players stats were a mirror of your own real world physical fitness? Such that if you wanted to level up in the game, defeat stronger monsters, save the world, etc, you would need to exercise in real life to improve your characters in game stats. It's obviously an understatement to say that would be difficult to effectively implement into a video game, but then I thought it /could/ be implemented into a TTRPG, with the GM acting as the ref/trainer who preforms tests to gauge the players current fitness as well as their progress. In game skill challenges will be simulated by players preforming exercises related to the skill check, where the better their performance (Such as higher number of reps in a given time frame) will result in better outcomes and higher bonuses. I'm hoping to make a kickstarter to sell the rulebook once I'm done. As for your idea of a VRPG, I also think thats an awesome idea. I like the concept of automating all the things that /can/ be automated. I think that would leave more room for role play and story. Normally a huge chunk of gameplay is spent on looking things up, rolling dice, trying to calculate stuff etc.

[@asquirrelplays]

Dude that sounds awesome. While not TTRPGs, there are some "games" out there that try to video "gameify" creating good habits and getting tasks done. You level up your characters by completing tasks/chores and all that. Never really got into myself, but I really, really liked the idea of it. But man, imagine going to a TTRPG session and having to workout to pass skill checks. That honestly sounds pretty great. Or when then player asks to do something crazy. "Sure, you can do that . . . if you can do 50 pushups." Although, definitely don't bring the pizza and beer to that game. Also, you say it'd be hard to implement into a video game, but there's things like Wii Fit. Though, I guess if you go that route then not only do you have to design a game, you have to design physical hardware as well, and that's $$$$. But man, definitely keep me in the loop on that one. I'd be interested to see where it goes, and more than happy to do a video for the kickstarter once you get to that point. My email is on the "about me" part of my channel, so make a note! I know it takes a while, so no rush.

[@starcaptainyork]

​@@asquirrelplays Thanks for the support. My phone is loaded with various apps in the "fitness RPG" genre, some of them I use daily, but none have ever fully scratched the itch. Maybe someday soon we'll create tech that can scan your body and not only accurately project your real world fitness onto a video game character, but also accurately track and record your workouts and personal bests. And imagine if it was an MMO? Everyone in the world could essentially compete in a fantasy Olympics from their living room. And players could meet up and form adventuring teams with people at their level. But until such tech is developed, a TTRPG with a human GM ref is the most realistic way to tackle this I think, but one can dream. As for food, I plan to make the game a holistic fitness experience that includes proper diet, and different classes that focus on different areas of fitness, even ones that don't include exercise. Imagine a "cook" class who give bonuses to other character by bringing healthy meals they made themselves? Or for potion drinking, you actually have to drink a cup of water or a protein shake or eat a whole fruit/vegetable. Or alternatively, you could also have characters who class is focused on helping other players with outside game work, like homework/chores and the like, and doing that give in game bonuses too. The exercises in question could also be thematically linked to the fitness challenge. Imagine your party sees that their village is on fire over the horizon, and now they have to run there, and you challenge them to do an actual timed distance run, where their time to completion represents how quickly they arrive, and effects whether they can save certain people in time. I'll def keep you updated, I've got a discord where I'm working on doing test runs of campaigns, so things are chugging along nicely.

[@asquirrelplays]

@@starcaptainyork Love it. Sounds like you're pushing along and sticking to it. One step at a time, even if it's a small one, it's still forward! (ok I'm just preaching to myself but you get the idea)

[@JoshuaBeaty]

Sword Coast Legends did exactly what you're describing, I'm not sure if the game is still working though. A gm could create a full campaign similar and control or modify things while the players ran around

[@asquirrelplays]

Alright, I'll have to take a look at that. I've seen a few comments about "Zeus" from Arma 3 also being super close to what I'm talking about. I got some homework to do!

[@LimakPan]

So, Neverwinter Nights in multiplayer mode.

[@asquirrelplays]

Somebody else mentioned that and went into more detail about how it worked and the adventures you could make. It sounded like it would have been a ton of fun back in the day. My internet never would have been able to pull it off back then though (little me also wouldn't have understood anything). Kinda bummed I missed out on it though.

[@catastrophicatack6974]

Congratulations on 50!

[@nnickplays9713]

I suppose the biggest question would be.What will the gm do when he's playing? How would he be communicating with the players? A lack of in person communication In a way, I kind of imagine it as the A.I director from left for dead, who customizes future events based off what and how the players are doing. Or that reveal that one helldiver 2 dev "GM"s And mixes things up as people play.

[@asquirrelplays]

I imagine the GM would still be talking with the players. There'd be less explaining to do since a lot of it's visual. Wouldn't need to tell them they're walking on an old, cracked, stone floor in a narrow hallway since the players could see that for themselves. Smells would be something you could communicate to the player. Or if a player was some kind of cleric type, you could inform them they "sense" an evil getting closer. Things like that. But yeah, it would be more akin to the game directors in Left4Dead and VT2 probably. Throwing different things at the players as they progress and adjusting as the game progresses. I got a video setting in my "watch later" about the mechanics behind Helldivers 2's "GM". I need to watch that one.

[@Bondanalloy]

been toying with this concept with foundry on a similar level; similar to how hearthstone and so many others now are digital card games that leverage digital tools and ability vs paper card games, why not design a ttrpg system that takes automation and integrates more with it rather than having to force the two to work together. interesting stuff!

[@asquirrelplays]

And I think that's the key part of it too - stop forcing things to work together. Instead just make something new that can flourish on its own! I dunno, maybe I should go start a kickstarter. Only I'd have nothing to contribute. I'd have to hire all the talent lol

[@aidanstokes3]

I really like the concept for a vgttrpg (video game ttrpg, so clever). I think that something akin to that could be successful. It really comes down to the team working on it and how polished it is. People blow through content quickly in video games, and if they can't keep up with consistent content, then it'll fall off fast. Really, something like this almost NEEDS to allow user made content like mods. On another note. An app that simulates mini-games for situations like picking a lock or disarming a trap sounds like an easy way to dip the toes in :)

[@asquirrelplays]

I feel like there's something there. Even something as simple as an old Final Fantasy game but the GM is the one throwing enemies at the players and controlling their battle choices instead of letting it be random. Or the GM could throw the enemies at them and then let the enemies randomly make battle decisions. So many ways!

[@JuanRodriguez0]

Its pretty far but something like arma 3 with zeus is what you are thinking. Arma 3 is a realistic military sim. It has a ton of mods and you can create maps, levels, scenarios and the more important thing, the map creator can be used while the game is on to spawn units, move them, use them, change the map or do anything you want. In this case is military roleplaying, with the engine of a shooter that lets you tell a story and modify it while you are playing it. I used to be on a clan with arund 60 people. Some of them were GM,s and the rest played campaings as squads in the same game. If we managed to achieve our objectives we would progress and have new ones, if we failed them the story changed due to it and progressed to another path on the next game that the GMs would make up like dungeon masters. Appart from our abilitie we had other restrictions. If our player didnt had training on anti-tank systems you couldnt pick it up and use it for example, so it had a class sistem with medics, officers, radio operator, motoriced squads... . It was pretty fun.

[@asquirrelplays]

Yeah several folks have mentioned Zeus so far. I had never heard of it before. Somebody joined the Discord and shared a long video of it being used, and I gotta admit, it looks pretty dang neat. These guys were being a bit silly and trying to disarm exploding goats, but I mean, just the fact you can put something that silly in an otherwise serious military sim is pretty great. Still, of all the things folks have mentioned so far, I don't think the "Zeus" part of it has been the main focus/draw. It's always been an added mode onto the game. And that's still really cool, but I just wonder why someone hasn't focused on that part of it.

[@CavernadoLekkis]

It is a very interesting idea. However, if I am not wrong, Neverwinter Nights used to have something like that few decades ago. However, due to bad internet connection and even hardware requirements, I've never tried it by myself. It would be great to see a product between this two RPG niches.

[@asquirrelplays]

Yes! Several people brought up Neverwinter Nights. Despite having the game as a kid, I never knew that side of it existed. Though, you're not alone with bad internet. There's no way mine would have been able to handle it back then. But man, from what people have been saying, that sure would have been something to see.

[@forestdreamz]

This sounds a lot like dungeon Builder or dungeon master video games of the past. The ones where you build a dungeon and other players try to conquer it. I don't remember if you can directly interfere while they are playing though?

[@asquirrelplays]

Yeah, custom levels have been around for a while, but the key would be "live adjustments". Giving the GM the ability to manipulate things on the fly is a lot harder to implement into a video game scene. Dropping in enemies is one thing, but being able to adjust stats/values for both enemies and players, quickly adjust terrain, add in new traps, things like that, that gets hard to make/code.

[@AvenueStudios]

Hey thanks for the shout out haha!

[@BuilderB-dt1f8]

Not based off true events. The best kind of not based. Also, happy fitty!

[@Nathouuuutheone]

Used to think a lot about this concept, but with texts on forums. Players write what they do, have functions for basic game mechanics (dice rolls and whatnot), and a DM replies, the same way as around the table, and at the end of the session they compile everything into a nice format detailing story arcs, dialogues, and fights.

[@asquirrelplays]

I think I'm following what you're saying. It'd be like traditional playing through text, but you'd special commands to use that the "game" would be able to read and use, then at the end of the adventure it'd be able to kick it all out in a nice, easy to read format? That'd actually be pretty cool, and a LOT easier to make than what I'm talking. Hmmmm . . . you got the squirrel brain going. All 2 brain cells.

[@MagpieNation]

I think what you're squirreling about is a story generating game, like Rimworld, Dwarf Fortress, The Survivalists, Prison Architect, or whatever. They're rarely multiplayer without modification but often put players in a top down observational position. The DM role becomes curated by the game's creators and mod-makers, but is almost entirely absent from any specific instance of the game. See "How To Spot A Space Nazi" for a book about my foray into online gaming... and how it went horribly.

[@asquirrelplays]

I have Rimworld sitting in my library. I really need to learn how to play that game.

[@juauke]

I freaking love Rimworld and Dwarf Fortress! The only problem I have with Rimworld is that it makes my nights of sleep much shorter, I dunno why

[@sidewinder2716]

I think I got this kind of experience from roleplay servers in Space Station 13 and its many different forks. The "game" doesn't really work without a lot of things being built, operated or maintained by players due to its simulationist nature, and administrators have complete control over everything, from spawning items and mobs to changing the atmospheric makeup of an area. It is fully player-driven. Mobs and their behavior can be custom-coded, maps can be custom-made, and there's a dedicated demographic of players who play the game purely to fight using it's """robust""" combat system. Colonial Marines being a prime example. I haven't played many of the other BYOND RP games but they seem to operate in a similar manner, SS13 is just the most popular. I wouldn't recommend trying to do an RPG campaign in it though, because only a certain type of masochistic codemonkey cares enough about BYOND code to try working with it. Maybe it's easier to work with in the Unity version though. Haven't tried it myself.

[@asquirrelplays]

Dang, that sounds pretty interesting. And intense. Though I suppose that's the problem with this kind of thing, isn't it? The more elaborate it gets and allows the players/gms to do, the more work it requires which brings a steeper learning curve.

[@kabosustan2484]

I think the only difference between what you described and a vtt is a set of rules designed with vtt's in mind, the example given the jump mechanic with timing. The question is, what does this add to the experience, because from my perspective the only thing this offers that foundry doesn't have is the requirement for hand eye coordination. This could limit gms by not allowing them to make their own puzzles or skills. I ran a game of call of cthulhu with custom character sheets the the crew of a b-17 bomber, adding a historically accurate b-17 super fortress with mini games for shooting guns, dropping bombs, navigation,, fixing the plane, trying to get out of a broken ball turret, defensive and offensive flying. Its just not possible. Also, I fail to see how it would improve the game if it was. My player doesn't actually want to use star charts to navigate over an endless ocean on a forine planet or repair the failing oxygen systems, they want drama and the drama comes from the fear of faling, not the mechanics of how ability checks are handled. I have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of hours in video games, my K:D in bfV is 50:1 and I have almost perfect eye sight. This gives me a huge advantage over my visually impaired and shit at video gaming friends who will be hopless in matching my reflexes. I will regularly beat tasks I'm far underequipped for and my friends who have characters who are far more able will trail behind me as I solve problems for them. Now I know what your thinking "but you like video games and your friends who couldn't play vrpg's because they suck at video games and seeing would suck at thoes too," and with that you miss the distinction. Video games are about the skill, having better reaction times, spatial reasoning and vision is what creates the compition that I enjoy (There's more to why people like games but I'm not here to write an article on player motivation). Ttrpgs are about communal story telling and the rules exist to aid the story being told. The puzzle is intellectual and social and adding a skill based element muddies the meaning. Do you ever stop in Mario and talk in character to player 2? No, because the game is about reaction time and hand eye coordination. By adding thoes elements to ttrpg's you take away from the story telling and create ludo narrative dissonance. It's a step back for role play, not a step forward.

[@asquirrelplays]

Lot to unpack here but I'll give it my best shot. Just looking at the jump mechanic, I think you've limited yourself on what it could be. It doesn't HAVE to be the time-based mini-game that comes up. That's just one way to do it. If your players prefer that, then maybe that's the way you do it. The values/zones in the bar for a safe jump could be the same for everyone, meaning those with better hand-eye coordination would do better. Or you could have it so that the "safe zone" in the bar is based off related stats. Low athletic ability might make the "safe zone" extremely narrow, or maybe even non existent and all you have is red and yellow, which are "miss" and "potentially miss". And that's if you even want the mini-game/bar to begin with. You could just make it an automated dice roll. No hand-high coordination required. The player explores a dungeon, comes across a pit with spikes at the bottom, determines the difficulty of the jump then decides whether or not they want to attempt it. Attempting is nothing more than a button press. As always, it's something you'd need to determine in Session 0. How much "real skill" do you want in the game, and how much dice roll randomness do you want. Similar to how you decide (or should) with your players how much combat they want vs how much narrative they want, you would decide with your players how much they want to lean into the video game side of it vs how much they want to lean into the narrative side. Like any TTRPG, it should be adjustable to fit your needs. Also, to say games are solely about skill, reaction times, spatial reasoning and all that just isn't right. Games like Astroneer take zero skill. There's an entire "cozy" genre of games. My wife doesn't like games that require reaction times, whereas I love them. She has plenty of hours racked up in the likes of Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing, and Planet Zoo. She also has close to 2k hours in Slay the Spire. None of those require hand-eye coordination (though as fast as she flips through those cards in Slay the Spire you'd wonder sometimes). And as for people never stopping in Mario to talk in character to Player 2, there are absolutely people that do that. Maybe not in Mario (though I wouldn't doubt it), but every MMO has a roleplay scene. Even the games that I don't feel like fit under the MMO category, like ARK and Conan. Those also have plenty of RP groups. There's also people that RP in Skyrim. Quite a few people as it turns out. You could still tell a story with this new concept/platform. The drama would still be there. It's just a different way of doing it.

[@trollsmyth]

My wife would love something like this. As pointed out, Neverwinter Nights did this. It was a bit limited in that it was hard to create new content for it, mostly because the tools were not terribly user friendly back in the '00s. I think something like that today would be awesome, and I was hearing some noise around BGIII doing something like this, but I'm not sure if that was just wishful thinking or something that was actually being considered.

[@asquirrelplays]

I seriously doubt Hasbro would allow Larian to make a "GM Mode" for BG3 like they did in Divinity. My theory is they'll try to ride the BG3 wave to get people over to their own VTT. Also, from what I've heard, Larian has more or less cut ties with Hasbro. After Hasbro laid off so many people, Larian said there's nobody left over there that they originally worked with on the BG3 project. But, hey, money talks. So who knows what will happen down the road.

[@trollsmyth]

@@asquirrelplays, yeah, almost certainly won't be happening now, alas. I think I hold out more hope for Tailspire adding in rules functionality. I am curious about the idea that the computer can handle more complex rules. On the one hand, you can do a lot of cool things that way; on the other, it threatens to turn randomization into a black box where the players have no idea what their odds are.

[@TheIoPC]

Glad you made it to 50 vids. 👍 What you're talking about is, in a way, what Hasbro/WotC is attempting to do with their proprietary VTT. They want to blur the line enough to get both audiences to buy their stuff. You are correct though about Divinity Original Sin II having a Dungeon Master Mode that you could play with your friends. To my knowledge t is limited to the Divinity system though; which is understandable for when the feature was implemented. As a whole Pen and Paper rpgs have influenced video games from the digital option's very beginning. As time has gone on there was a feedback of ideas from video games to pen and paper rpgs. This culminated in WotC's D&D 4th edition. An edition that had its merits, but was ultimately not well received. There will most likely be a few games, and groups that venture into the blending of their own games with more digital options, however, baring some huge shift in the tech or community zeitgeist this will likely remain a niche-within-a-niche type of situation. ~ Adam

[@asquirrelplays]

Yeah, I know Hasbro is trying to snatch the video game crowd with their VTT, but they're still clinging to D&D's rules/mechanics. That's what I was saying in the video about shoving one game into the other. It may look pretty and have all the 3d pizazz of a video game, but essentially you're still playing D&D. The GM (I think) is still moving tokens of goblins around and dice are rolling across the screen, and things are generally going to be slower. I was thinking more of the GM could put goblins down and they roam and move on their own, and when they encounter the players, they also act on their own. The GM can of course overrule what they do, maybe having them call in reinforcements or something (or maybe make a goblin go super saiyan, I dunno). Of course there'd be different levels of how much control a player has. I suppose some versions could be more turn based style, but others might be more akin to Oblivion/Skyrim. Then we can make acronyms even longer! AGMCRPG for "Action Game Master Controlled Role Playing Game". Because who doesn't love more silly acronyms.

[@juauke]

Very interesting topic, could be an alternative way to get into either of the hobbies with that sort of in between and maybe create a new hobby I much prefer the "in person" TTRPGs but I have done remote TTRPGs that were great fun I have yet to GM one myself but I probably will try to do something akin to a whiteboard (that's what I do in person so I'm sure they will like it also remotely) with a VTT to roll dice remotely (either FoundryVTT or maybe even HexRoll since it is very cool, you should check it out!) when I have to move to Belgium for my studies at the end of this year What was the software you tested? I'm just curious about it PS: Wow, would love to hear about that Crown & Skull game after it's done! PSS: my EZD6 campaign expands (now I have 6 players; only 5 came yesterday) and it was great fun. They killed the 2 main BBEG but they still have a sandbox they could explore and one of my players want to GM something very different: a d100 skill-based system (not sure which he has something in mind when he says that) but I'm okay with it if he wants to. Every session (all systems) have been tied to this world so maybe he could add something interesting to the world

[@asquirrelplays]

I'm loving the ongoing EZD6 updates lol. I've heard of d100 systems before. They sound pretty fun. I THINK (but not 100% sure) Call of Cthulhu has that. If I'm not mistaken, your skill level for something is 1-100, and you want to roll below your skill. Or maybe I have it backwards. Anyway - I did a Tricube Tales session in Discord and used the "whiteboard activity" where everybody could doodle on the whiteboard. It actually worked pretty good. I had 0 plans and we were just rolling random things in the Tricube Solo generator pages. It was definitely entertaining, but the whiteboard certainly had its perks. Though I will say, be prepared for your players to get super distracted if they have the permission to draw. "RPG Stories" is the 3d builder I was showing if that's what you're asking. Either my next video or the one after that is going to be about it specifically. Me and Avenue Studios are also going to be playing a session in it with the devs pretty soon, so be on the lookout for that.

[@juauke]

@@asquirrelplays you're welcome for the updates! I love telling people about it since it is my first 'real' table and campaign and I'm having the fun of my life! You're right indeed, that is how they work (roll under skill to succeed) and Call of Cthulhu (it is based on BRP [Basic Roleplaying] by Chaosium which is a d100-skill-based system)

[@juauke]

@@asquirrelplays Tricube Tales is a cute little elegant game That's great! At my "in person", I have a big whiteboard where the cartographer (one of the players, can change whenever they want) draws what I describe (usually a dungeon/place or combat situation) They probably will be but I think they will at least have their heads a bit into the game (instead of on their phones, social medias, etc.)

[@juauke]

Oh okay, I'm looking forward to that session! Sounds like fun! All the best to the devs! PS: sorry for the 3 responses, it was much easier for me since I'm on my phone and the keyboard cuts parts of your answer 😭

[@asquirrelplays]

@@juauke Perfectly understandable. Mobile likes to make things difficult.

[@valethemajor]

I'm a programmer and DM. What I am about to alpha test with my players is a ttrpg that leans on my programming to have complex stats and itemization (inspired by WoW). What I've been long interested in is being able to have the Skyrim feel but with friends and with full agency and the world reacting to my actions. We will play over text on Discord. I actually don't like to play in person because I prefer the written approach.

[@asquirrelplays]

So let me see if I got this right: You're making a TTRPG, but it uses concepts/mechanics found in video games like WoW. And since you're a programmer, you're making the tool that runs all the mechanics so the player doesn't have to? I'm assuming it's a text-based interface/game since it's being played through Discord text. It sounds interesting, I just wasn't sure if I understood the comment right. Either way, I'd be interested to hear updates and how your testing goes.

[@valethemajor]

@@asquirrelplays The players will still describe their actions and the like through text as with a normal ttrpg but yes I have a tool where I can process how much damage a character's fireball does to an enemy, how much it costs, the resist chance and dodge chance of the enemy, the caster's miss chance, etc, all with a button press. And incorporating stats from player gear

[@asquirrelplays]

@@valethemajor got it! Sounds pretty neato. Really wish KZbin had a community wall on my channel or a way other people could swing by and drop some updates or something, because I know a lot of people (myself included) don't really like Discord. I guess I could occasionally make a community post asking how projects are going in for everyone and they could comment. I might need to start doing that.

[@MagnaKay]

Even before Neverwinter Nights, you could kinda do this in the original Vampire: The Masquerade game. I think it was one of the first non-niche (or less-niche) games to implement it. It was limited by the tech of the day, of course, but you could still do some cool stuff with the DM functionality.

[@asquirrelplays]

innnnnteresting. Somebody in the Discord is a big Vampire the Masquerade TTRPG fan, but I'm not sure they actually got into the video games any. If they had, I feel like they probably would have brought that up for sure.

[@Impossible_Emporium]

Look at Dungeon Keeper 1 & 2 from the late 90s. It's been followed by other...

[@asquirrelplays]

👀

[@SlinkyTWF]

Sounds a little like you're talking about an evolution of the old Bioware Neverwinter Nights CRPG that would allow more GM input.

[@asquirrelplays]

Perhaps! That might be a great place to start and see where it goes.

[@Drudenfusz]

Doesn't sound like that is for me, but I am sure there will be enough people who would dig that. I personally go far more into the direction where my TTRPG almost feels like spoken/written improve theatre or cooperative creative writing or cooperative storytelling, with no need for a GM and the dice are not there to check if the character is successful or any such competency porn nonsense, but only to outline the direction the narrative will go.

[@asquirrelplays]

And see, that's the thing, it would be an option for that weird in-between. Maybe you want more freedom than a video game offers, but you're not quite into the RP or narrative as others. Who doesn't like more options? (it's me because I can never make a decision)

[@bravojr]

What you are describing here is Zues from Arma3

[@asquirrelplays]

So I hear! I'm going to have to check it out. Another person mentioned "Sword Coast Legends" too, so it looks like I got some things to search and check out.

[@thomashernandez1004]

We have this already in Minecraft and a couple other games. (See all the "Minecraft Civilization" videos for an idea of what they are like)

[@asquirrelplays]

Sometimes I'm sad I never got into Minecraft. I tried, but I just couldn't do it. That said, one of the goobers I like to shoot space bugs with is a big minecraft guy. I've told him a couple times he needs to make me and our mutual friend a dungeon to go diving in and he could be our GM. Honestly I completely forgot about that until you brought it up. Should have mentioned that in the video!

[@mooseboose656]

I'm sorry but I'm confused what you're asking for? Like a Mario maker creator but for ttrpg? How would a DM be more involved? I don't know what you're asking for?

[@asquirrelplays]

Technically I'm not asking for anything, I'm just wondering if there is some other type of game that could be made that fits somewhere between a typical video game and a ttrpg. Basically, players could be roaming and exploring like a video game where they have direct control over their character. They can run, jump, climb, fight, all that stuff that's programmed in. The GM would make the maps like normal and design the enemies, but they'd be more automated and run on their own. Then the GM could also override anything as needed. Throw in extra enemies, take actual control of the enemies to make them a little more challenging (by having them make more intelligent decisions). He could even "fix" things on the fly. For example, somebody wanted to climb up something but the game wasn't letting them for whatever reason. The GM could swoop in and just move the player up where they needed to be if they could make an argument for it. Maybe it's more "video game with a human engine". Vermintide 2 has an "AI Game Director" and it works pretty good at throwing various challenges at you, but you are very, very locked into the game's programming (and understandably so).

[@Fingeroo]

This is kind of out of left field, but check out Zeus mode in Arma 3.

[@asquirrelplays]

that is out of left field lol I barely know anything about Arma but what little I do know I did NOT expect it to fit into this. I'll have to look that up

[@Catlord98765]

Sometimes when I go play skyrim I wish I had the freedom from a ttrpg. Let me crowbar open that locked chest darnit

[@asquirrelplays]

probably a mod for that

[@crallsfickle2994]

As another comment already mentioned, I think that’s what the new DnD stuff is going towards and I HATE it. The more you add visuals and automation, the further away you get from the uniqueness and I think best aspects of TTRPGs. Even minis and stuff takes away to some degree. Now I like some visuals because they can help immersion for me and when it’s totally theatre of mind I get a bit disoriented so I totally get that there’s a spectrum that maintains a huge amount of that “you can do anything/anything can happen” and “automation/visuals”, but at some point I think you’ve lost so much of the special quality of TTRPGs… but still don’t have enough of the video game aspects to be as good as a ‘pure’ video game either. Foundry is cool and I’m fine with those fancier tools, it still seems firmly within TTRPG territory even if you can start to lose some of it. But it’s getting too far for my liking now with Hasbro’s new VTT. I also think people will love it though and if the company and business model doesn’t kill it, it will be popular and others will scramble to imitate it. But I think eventually we’ll realize our games are lacking a lot of the stuff they used to have because so much is just spelled out for us. However, as long as we see this as either an entirely different type of game or at least an entirely separate branch.. who knows, maybe something fun and worthy is possible. Not entirely sure I can imagine what it would be like at this point though. Perhaps a fairly structured situation like a video game, but the GM adjusts certain things on the fly and can manipulate the situation better? It wouldn’t be like a TTRPG and would be clunkier and less cinematic than a video game, but could still provide something unique? Sure, but please don’t let that be the path TTRPGs try to take!

[@asquirrelplays]

I think the VTTs like Foundry are in a good spot. That top down approach really helps you get a lay of the land and know where all obstacles are that you can hide behind, but at the same time, it also allows you plenty of freedom and wiggle room narratively. I think you're on the right track at the end of your comment. Much closer to a video game but the human GM has the ability to manipulate things on the fly to make things either smoother, more challenging, or whatever the situation may need. Essentially, a few extra layers to the "dynamic difficulty" some games have. A "clunkier and less cinematic video game" was a good way to describe it, but the benefit would be that it's whatever adventure you want to make instead of just the one a video game normally provides.

[@crallsfickle2994]

@@asquirrelplays Yeah they’re great for online play. They also allow you to use as many and few features as you want too of course.