Wait... Did Ori and the Will of the Wisps copy Hollow Knight?

When Ori and the Will of the Wisps released last year, there was a ton of discussion surrounding its similarities to Hollow Knight. But how similar are these two games? And what have the developers of Ori said about all this? This video will discuss all that, as well as the history of the Metroidvania genre, and how we talk about inspiration and imitation in the games industry.
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Video Chapters:
0:00 Spoiler Warning
0:09 Introduction
07:38 Part 1. What is a rip off?
17:27 Part 2. A brief history of Metroidvanias
36:16 Part 3. The Perfect Metroidvania
56:09 Part 4. Let's actually compare these games, why not?
1:14:22 Part 5. Conclusion

[@mossbag69]

So... since this video came out, a story broke about Moon Studio's toxic workplace environment. A lot of contractors working at Moon expressed their displeasure interacting with Mahler and Korol. There were issues with inappropriate language and crunch culture. One interesting thing from the article is that it claims Mahler would openly bash games that his fellow developers worked on. It reminded me of how he talked about other games on ResetEra and NeoGAF. There's a whole lot more details to this story, and I think it's better you just read it for yourself. But heads up, it's a long, depressing read: venturebeat.com/2022/03/18/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/

[@minty2733]

well yikes

[@Weegeeboi21]

Damn

[@wreckateer]

Didn't surprise me

[@Lennon-ls3jy]

It's so annoying when such great art gets tainted by the artist

[@mrlizard8940]

I hope those people who worked under them got properly compensated, that crunch culture is enough to kill a man tbh

[@OmAr-sr1sn]

Weird that both metroid and dark souls are heavily inspired by zelda but zelda just gets "adventure game" as a genre, lol.

[@iopklmification]

well...for the 3D games I don't see many games that tried to do a similar formula. Adventure games in 3D often involve more platforming or more emphasis on combat. There are some open world games that took a lot of inspiration from BOTW (like Genshi Impact) but they don't emulate the series, just this game. The influence of 2D Zeldas is mostly felt in rogue lite nowadays and those game have a very different structure than the Legend of Zelda. But another reason may be that Zelda games tend to be quite different from each other... much more than Castlevania or Metroid games, so there is no clear formula to follow.

[@agata6337]

also castlevania (both the classics and post-SotN) have huge zelda inspirations too so thats just weird

[@Ashipwreckedguy]

The thing about Zelda as a series is that it abandoned its non linear formula that inspired so many other developers pretty quickly. The core "get item -> unlock progress" idea is still there but with some exceptions it happens linearly in almost every game after Zelda 1. So despite inspiring them, it abandoned what made Zelda very "Metroidvania".

[@RolfeSenpai]

Zelda in general is a pretty simple and easy to understand franchise, that's a big part of its allure. The mechanics in the games themselves aren't incredibly deep, but the game design around them is so good that it makes them shine regardless.

[@moritzbayer5658]

I would say that zelda is more of a adventure game in the form of a story, because your journey is so linear. While darksouls and hollow knight feels more like a adventure, because it doesn't have a clear line to follow and you can kind of freely explore the world. Now that I think about it, because I never played castlevania or metroid, I compare it more to darksouls a game I played and just call it a metroidvania, because everyone else does it, even though I would call it a souls born game.

[@DementedDuskull]

Let's not kid ourselves, Ori and the Will of the Wisps obviously stole most of its ideas from Ori and the Blind Forest.

[@maky7295]

Not wanting to be a hater or something, but Hollow Knight Silksong looks SO similiar to Hollow Knight, they even copied one of the characters!! Smh

[@Melecie]

will of the wisps completely stole the iconic bash ability from ori and the blind forest, smh

[@jeni1297]

World War 2 must've stolen ideas from World War 1 too. It just had the same characters and a new overpowered combat mechanic

[@ananthrayanapati1174]

can you believe it ori and the will of the wisps stole the same design for the main character from ori and the blind forest

[@SebMegronski]

Will of the Wisps completely copied the first half of the blind forest's name, smh

[@spaceinvader4069]

Both games also have a ranged attack option, and rocks. This was first made popular in Pacman 2. Thus, both games are pretty much clones of that. As is fortress craft.

[@Nate2010]

pacman 2 has a ranged attack?

[@Nate2010]

how do you make a ranged weapon in fucking pacman

[@B14z3rather]

@@Nate2010 so basically

[@legendarygabe1143]

every game is a pong ripoff because it's a Game

[@Nate2010]

@@legendarygabe1143 every book is a ripoff of the dictionary because words

[@elijahparish3763]

“Will of the wisps is like blind forest influenced by hollow knight’s combat” is one hell of an endorsement if you ask me

[@rojey5211]

Yeah I’m literally gonna play it based off that

[@pwr4]

​@@rojey5211 don't support moon studios because wellll just read the top comment

[@destinyhntr]

That's literally all I thought when playing it (after playing both BF and HK). They seemed to like HK's combat and implemented it into their game. I'm not complaining.

[@cherandshane2683]

Hell, Ori and The Blind forest's combat was rushed and unfinished itself, given time it could have been more than *spam X*

[@Mulch4321]

Moons and cherries are also both round objects, surprised you missed that one, pretty deep cut tho

[@Mulch4321]

Im lying, the video was posted 7 minutes ago, I have no idea what he missed

[@thatmagichatguy8761]

@@Mulch4321 oh i read the comment and was really confused i didnt recognize moons or cherries, the joke is funny, ahhhh i ruined it now :(

[@mariobartolini2158]

@@F41nt13 full moons tho

[@sharkronical]

@@Mulch4321 how dare you to lie in the internet

[@aidenmclaughlin1076]

Coincidence?! I THINK NOT!!

[@stuffstuff3455]

"I can't imagine myself being upset about a game being inspired by one of my favorite games." - shyguymask, fireb0rn's comment section in 'stop calling new metroidvanias hollow knight rip offs'.

[@word69420]

It’s shameless that Nintendo is ripping off Hollow Knight with Metroid Dread

[@peteirrook8556]

The problem is not that they were inspired the problem is that its obvious but when they were asked about it they said they never even heard about HK cause they ego is way toooo big

[@stuffstuff3455]

Yeah. When moon does that, it makes me question whether or they deserve the Ori franchise. What if Ori and the will of the wisps was made by a non competitive team?

[@saitamaharuhiko8337]

I, personally, just hate the attitude of the Ori and the Will of the wisp's creators being: "we are here to make a perfect metroidvania" And not admitting to those elements that clearly more Hollow Knight inspired than other games. And it's just that the game isn't that well balanced and polished gameplay-wise, and when they make such statements, I will just hate on them.

[@pegtor700]

Exactly its just more of what you already love how could you be mad

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

I'm really glad Team Cherry literally joined the fray to get everyone to calm down. There are a lot of creative types in many genres, not just games, who like to inflame plagiarism controversy by playing the victim, when really, everyone is drawing from a set of inspirations somewhere. Something else I thought about once I got later into the video. You have that discussion about how Team Cherry actively avoided even calling the game a "Metroidvania," instead focusing on what felt good to them at the time. I think there's a lot more to be said about that philosophy vs the more top-down, systems-based design that Ori had, and the different kinds of fan feedback they produce. Obviously Ori "feels" really good to play, but you also don't have nearly as many people going on about how personal it felt to them. Meanwhile, HK, which in many ways isn't as polished and streamlined, has tons of people who have been obsessing over it for 5 years now. You rightly talk about how the community aspect that all the hidden areas really fosters a community aspect, but I also think that simply having a more organic-feeling experience, even if imperfect, can really get people to feel like they have more ownership over that piece of art.

[@alphamineron]

But you’re been so vague with the “organic” design… what exactly is that? Just the fact that they didn’t follow a genre style but ended up being in that genre at the end of their design journey? Just that sets it apart? Could you explain?

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

@@alphamineron so, it's been a year since I made the comment, and I don't remember *exactly* what my train of thought was, but I think I was specifically contrasting "organic" with the "top-down" approach of Ori. Ori's design is very prescriptive: we want to make x kind of game, therefore we need items a, b, c, and d. Here is where we need to stay consistent, here is where we can innovate. HK, on the other hand, was designed around a "feeling." Specifically, the feeling of exploring a lost and abandoned world. That's not a genre. In fact, in my opinion, HK shares a lot of DNA with Subnautica and Outer Wilds, which are completely different genres, but are also very preoccupied with the "feeling" of exploration. There's no set of well-established prescriptive steps to take or game elements to implement to make a game like that. It's something that you literally have to "feel" out as you go. It's hard to describe in more detail than that, but as someone who has worked both on projects that I tightly planned before metaphorically breaking ground, and ones that I had to figure out as I go along, they are very distinct approaches and you can usually tell which is which in the results. I guess the last thing I'll say, and one of the things I love about that "organic" approach is that the things you've already created are your sole guide. That positive feedback where you're using the things you've already built for inspiration can take you places you might never have thought of in a design-first approach. Edit: one last thing. HK is also significantly rougher around the edges than Ori. I think imperfections often show a lot more of the creators' personalities and priorities, and can also lend to that feeling of being "organic." Games that have been over-tuned can often feel sterile and soulless. One of my favorite examples of this is Morrowind. That game is absolutely broken once you know how to manipulate its systems, but it's also one of my top 3 RPGs of all time for the sheer freedom it gives you.

[@alphamineron]

@@Crazy_Diamond_75 I see, thanks for taking the time to elaborate! When I was comparing Ori and HK, I was intrigued because before playing the two; I’d always choose Ori, in fact I bought Ori 2yrs ago and only just bought HK. Played Ori last month and then HK this month. But I’ve already forgotten Ori, and I remember not caring a single bit about the story or the map… it felt very out of touch and video gamey to me. The village building and movement were my favorite but I felt that game lacked post-game content to make use of those things and the story itself was frustrating to me. But HK? It keeps me coming back. I couldn’t care about its story either but I must say it’s phenomenal in most aspects. The world building slowly caught up to me and running into Marrisa the blonde singer in city of tears was awestruck moment for me that made me feel the melancholy vibe I loved in Horizon Zero Dawn. Made HK one of my favorites…

[@diamondking1987]

Completely agree with hollow knight feeling a lot like subnautica @@Crazy_Diamond_75

[@dj_koen1265]

I honestly feel like hollow knight is more polished than ori Especially the art design is more crisp in hk One thing that I really didn’t like about ori is how it didn’t inmerse me at all, whether it was the clunky combat or the hard to parse art design Idk But something about it felt off

[@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar]

one thing I love about hollow knight is that every hit you take, it feels like you really took alot of damage, even when you still have like 90% of your masks left, that screen going dark and the particles and screenshake and sound really made it feel like I just got WHACKED, really motivated me to stop getting hit and get good.

[@howtoavenge1016]

the very first hit you take in hollow knight leaves a hell of an impression, doesnt it

[@timiman007]

"has been discussed by some of the greatest minds of this generation" "This is Keemstar"

[@nicobychok1037]

Something's wrong, I can feel it

[@sethfeldpausch4337]

So long as a game has its own identity and it isn’t literally ripping assets from another, I think taking inspiration from other great games is totally fine. The fact that Will of the Wisps has more Hollow Knight like combat, made it an even better game. I love both game series and can’t wait to see where they go next!(TC please give us some word on Silksong, I’m dying of thirst😭)

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Yes. The CLOSEST thing to copying was having very similar systems like charms, but even then obviously the context of that system isn't actual physical charms like in hollow knight but instead spirit related, and also all of the effects being different, still means it's far from copying

[@gatst7680]

@@JacobPDeIiNoNi The only thing I would even consider remotely close to directly taken from Hollow Knight would be how regeneration works, but even that I'm sure has been done in plenty of other games

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

@@gatst7680 Yeah that's also close but again, it's not something HK came up with nor is it exactly the same. You're right. Ori WOTW has similarities to HK and may take some inspiration but by no means "copies" it. Yep.

[@ThatDjinn]

Indeed. I don't care if something is a ripoff (as long as assets are not ripped) - if there is a market for more of the same, why not capitalize on that? I remember this topic came up back when Genshin Impact was being called a ripoff of Zelda BotW and Nintenfans would unironically destroy PS4's out of spite for having a game similar to what was on their beloved consoles. Also that one oldschool-animation platform-boss-rush game with 2 mage kids that was apparently ripping off Cuphead. I thought it looked cool and would probably buy it, but I don't even know what's happening with it now (I think kickstarter may have failed?)

[@atijohn8135]

​@@gatst7680 I didn't even have the regeneration ability throughout most of the game on hard mode and I was fine with it. It's nowhere near as significant of a mechanic as in Hollow Knight. And as you already said, getting mana for spells, including healing, through damaging an enemy is a concept that's been around since a while, and it's a pretty good game design, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be inspired by that.

[@Blizzic]

People place way too much value on ideas. Ideas are cheap. Everything has been done before. What really matters is *execution*. How ideas are mixed together to make a coherent whole is much more important than the ideas themselves.

[@731freeman]

I mean yeah, everyone has a billion ideas. We should definitely put more merit in the execution of ideas instead of the ideas themselves.

[@inkorporeal204]

@@731freeman Yes, specially since executing ideas by itself is very very hard

[@drbuni]

You speak like someone who never had a good idea in their life. As Mr. David Lynch said in the past, good ideas should be treasured.

[@calinguga]

@Andrew Pyle no one said it was exclusively idea or originality related. i absolutely agree everything takes inspiration from stuff before it, and the vast majority of insight consists of really tiny steps, but, first of all, it's still insight and still new, to some degree. and second, originality, although absolutely not sufficient for a good idea, is indeed necessary, it's in the definition of development. (dr buni said "good" ideas, not "new" ideas anyway.) because @blizzic how are mixing ideas together, or the plan of executing something a certain way, not ideas in themselves? this strikes me as a distinctly fabricated dichotomy. also, how would superbly executing a shit idea work out?

[@ZeroKitsune]

@@drbuni You speak like someone who's so proud of their ideas but hasn't actually created anything out of them in their life. Playing amateur psychologist is really easy too, you know.

[@ShadowScorp99]

"Is trying to find the bathroom in a crowded mall after eating chipotle a Metroidvania Souls-like experience?" I'm fucking dying from this line.

[@unity9760]

I think it is

[@zojirushi1]

Fr 📠 😂

[@zojirushi1]

Irl souls like speedrun experience!

[@Krystalmyth]

Yes. Honestly a game where you have that kind of urgency would be awesome. Imagine a Metroidvania with the escape sequence driving the entire game, with the Dread of Sonic drowning.

[@joedorben3504]

Specifically, it's like Hollow Knight. If you fail to find it you lose everything, and any annoyance that can possibly cause that nightmare scenario will undoubtedly be in your way

[@Painbow]

I loved how you depicted Blizzard as a bunch of people burning.

[@bluehero-96]

Said the "EXPLOSION!" girl.

[@serraramayfield9230]

Based Mossbag

[@justsomeannoyingredpanda]

@@serraramayfield9230 *mossbag

[@HealingBlight]

This is inaccurate as fire burns everyone equally.

[@uchihaaniq7845]

Ex...ploosioon

[@isaachester8475]

Lol, regardless of whether or not Ori is a “copy” of Hollow Knight, the fact that Mahler said “We studied Hollow Knight, we were inspired by it,” only to turn around once the comparisons were made, saying “I don’t even like it, I wasn’t inspired by it, the combat is too simplistic”… is just kinda hilarious 😂

[@conehead9885]

Yeah this cracked me up. I love the Ori games, but the first one has some of the most basic combat you'll ever find in a metroidvania. It's also not surprising that he didn't like Hollow Knight, because it is unapologetically a real metroidvania with real exploration. The Ori games are more like platformers pretending to be metroidvanias. You will never get lost in an Ori game.

[@antenna8836]

"Racing games all have cars" Let me bring up my personal favorite arcade racing game in counterplay: H2Overdrive It used boats instead of cars and it actually felt like racing boats instead of cars with different physics and map designs and everything One of the most unique racing games I've ever played and I still miss it

[@DoctorMushroom507]

You just unlock a memory for me I didn't know I had, I fucking loved that game

[@miniwhiffy3465]

i think i played that game

[@INDIGE_STUDIO]

The chattel focus on negativity it’s the way of the sheep

[@teathesilkwing7616]

Boats are just floating cars

[@CubemasterXD]

Waverace 64

[@Greenomb]

So what I take from this video: These kinds of discussions are inevitable, repetitive, and utterly pointless.

[@Vulpilux]

Or are they?

[@lakthederg]

@@Vulpilux DUNDUN DUUUUUN

[@Gloomy_Ghost_Grave]

@@Vulpilux *vsauce music plays*

[@eggseed6543]

​@@Vulpiluxhey, vsauce! Michael here. People oftenly see similarities on things that they don't fully know or understand as an attempt to grasp some understanding of it, that could be the cause of discussions... BUT!

[@DementedDuskull]

It's weird how the Ori devs keep referencing Super Meat Boy when last time I checked Ori does not have a single buzzsaw in it. Hollow Knight on the other hand....

[@mrjuicejar_yvk]

haha white palace go bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[@drownedtrashrat3501]

@@mrjuicejar_yvk fr tho, I just recently went through there and it was p a i n

[@mrjuicejar_yvk]

@@drownedtrashrat3501 I legit almost had a mental breakdown the first time traversed the white palace lul. But that's more of a me problem.

[@drownedtrashrat3501]

@@mrjuicejar_yvk no, no, that's more of a 'the pale king is a psycho' problem

[@sethfeldpausch4337]

😂TC definitely took inspiration from Meatboy for the White Palace specifically. It’s kinda funny because at this point, the white palace/path of pain might actually be more infamous than the entirety of the Meatboy franchise 😂😂😂

[@dwighttheislander7369]

Dang, guess we are now aware that there is an alternate universe out there where people call the Genre a Castloid instead of Metroidvania

Hollow Knight and Ori and the Will of the Wisps are both amazing games. They're similar, of course, but that's not a problem in my eyes, and they actually feel very unique in spite of that. I totally recommend anyone to play them. The boss fights in Hollow Knight amaze me, and the story in Ori brought tears to my eye. Play them

[@ArchitectofGames]

Wait a sec... I recognize that voice...

[@shoda9939]

What

[@qassim1233]

yeah gmtk's video on what makes a metroidvania was pretty cool

[@JoshtheOverlander]

I KNEW IT! HE WAS THE ICEBERG ALL ALONG!

[@BinkysCorner]

@@shoda9939 Adam makes an appearance in the dark souls section around 22:45 :)

[@shoda9939]

@@BinkysCorner thanks

[@juanrodriguez9971]

"roguelikes are bullshit" Me, a rougelike enjoyer: I have never felt so offended by something I agree with.

[@domagojgalekovic8507]

Roguelikes are the best relaxation after a tiring 8 hour shift

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@domagojgalekovic8507 The last 3 days I have been trying so hard on beating the boss rush with Isaac and failed way more than when I played normally. It's anything but relaxation.

[@brya9681]

I'm jealous you are either a teenager or jobless cuz a game that makes you start over ain't respecting my adult amount of time for leisure

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@brya9681 look bro, playing rogue likes is like playing cards or any board game, starting over and over again can be fun, a game doesn't need to have an start and a finish to be fun, neither to have multiplayer. Play a game even if you keep losing, at the end of the day feeling in some way has more to do with the way you think and not with the circumstances you are surrounded.

[@domagojgalekovic8507]

@@brya9681 Adult time means what? My work time fluctuates depending on the project i'm doing since I'm a freelancer. Sometimes i pull an 8 hour and sometimes it's 4-6h, rarely there's 12 hour shifts. It's all about organization fam. Sure i might not have a family but i live alone and i do a fair bit of work myself.

[@factandsuspicionpodcast2727]

Determining who originated an idea or mechanic is ultimately pointless; what matters is how developers iterate on those ideas. Fantastic job, enjoyed every minute of it.

[@memoowo]

It's so interesting to see Ori's developer's opinion on HK, because it just made me realize everyone really gravitate towards different things... "But here, I feel like I'm traversing sooooo much and very rarely get new stuff" "there's probably nothing new in the next area anyway""you get a new ability every 20 to 30 minutes or so in ori".... Ori is for sure very fast paced, and some people may like that better but I really like the delayed gratification HK gives me. Like... because everything is so hard to get, it feels so much more gratifying in the end. I just realized that some people don't get that LOL

[@Wonkess_Chonkess]

Maybe they do get that but they like this more

[@leesasuki]

indeed, personally I played a lot of game before HK, so getting skills like double jump after hours of playing just feel... normal, boring, and a sense of "for the god sake, finally!" instead of getting a cool move, but again, that's just me this also thanks to the HK well design map, I barely feel like there are places that I can go but limited, and (most of the times) is gently guided to the main objective, until I get traverse ability to get to those places that I couldn't. This has a downside of not making me realize how much I want those abilities, hence also dim my excitement when getting such ability. Ori basically do the opposite, the map design is obviously telling the players that "hei, look at this cool place and reward, shame that you couldn't get this~", which in fact empower the feeling of getting such traversal ability, no matter how generic those are to me both are great game, and definitely one of its kind, just that people has different preference

[@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar]

every ability felt like I just had a major achievement, getting the goddamn monarch wings made me feel like a GOD when I FINALLY started double jumping.

[@deadbymeme2311]

@@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar just started playing this game 13 h in and having the monarch wings is so fucking cool. I actually feel like you get the ability’s quite ‚quickly‘ because of the jump being so high you can traverse the starting areas with ease except for a few exceptions. Getting new movement ability’s enhances your movement in ways that you can more quickly traverse the grounds you were exploring plus reaching new areas. So first you explore each and every corner and later you speed through every area you already discovered with the new ability’s. I find this very satisfying.

[@ZeroKitsune]

Well it also turns out the guy is a massive egotistical tool who loves criticizing other people's games, sometimes just for the sake of it. So while he may not always be wrong, I'd take anything he says about the way other games are designed with a big grain of salt. He is definitely the kind of person to try as hard as possible to find fault with something, deserved or not.

[@tacocat835]

okay, okay hear me out for a second. i think silksong might be a hollow knight clone

[@sparkypack]

🙀🙀🙀

[@hriday684]

Oh yeah, Silksong looks _suspiciously_ similar... It even stole the Hollow Knight name and put it in its own!

[@Kris-dh4rt]

ikrr

[@NT-sx2bd]

HOW DARE YOU?!

[@darthawesome13a69]

Or is it the other way around?

[@janethompson7444]

"In a surprising turn of events for an online gaming forum, the thread soon became a complete dumpster fire." I love you mossbag

[@stripedrajang3571]

😂

[@alex.g7317]

Don't we all love mossy bags?

[@real23lions]

I'm almost done with HK and I've previously finished with Ori WotW. Both are amazing in their own styles of gameplay and art. But people who think they're the same, obviously didn't play one of the them. Combat style is different, emphasis on boss and platforms are different, as you said pacing is different. There are similarities but those similarities also appear in other smaller and older games. Anyway, execution matters more than ideas. All elements in both games have been done before. They just compiled it in a beautiful way. Awesome vid btw

[@dezterify]

The whole concept of cloning or copying other games is a little whack anyway. There is so many games on the market that it's almost impossible to create something truly unique without being similar to others either mechanicaly or in artstyle. There is always someone who did it before in this form or another.

[@tylereline5148]

yup yup yup

[@frankleemadere9020]

"Is trying to find the bathroom in a crowded mall after eating Chipotle, a metroidvania/souls-like experience?" Yes.

[@fizzled4life]

Someone should make a game like that.

[@Username-1939t9]

if there's anything i want people to take away from this video it's this quote

[@ShadowWizard123]

Chipoople

[@epicsharkmonster6605]

this part played in the video as i read this comment

[@the866-sushi]

Perfect comedy

[@Pope_]

i cant belive that dark souls clearly stole the character design from pacman 2 the new adventures

[@victorpalacio6190]

What I love most about this video is that it could be a 5 minute video just about a simple gossip and say "no, it's not a copy, move on" Instead, it could easily be an episode of GDLK series where you learn a lot about development and history of games itself. As an early developer (VFX Game Artist) in really pleased about this video. Awesome job, Mossbag. May the force be with you ❤

[@Cman04092]

I love how team cherry supported the company making Crowsworn. Ive never heard of crowsword, but it was just cool to see how chill team cherry are. I mean, games have been taking inspiration from other games, books, movies, tv shows, history, ect. Hell nier automata was heavily influenced by famous philosophers and how their ideologies play out at the extremes. Unfortunately, very littlr is truly unique anymore, and as long as we get good games, and its not blatent plagiarism, i an all all about it. Im just happy to see devs pike team cherry embracing this. I am curious as to what team cherry thought about the 2nd ori game though, i dont think that was brought up in this video.

[@Resstarr]

"A resetera thread turned into a dumpster fire." is probably the least surprising thing I heard in this video.

[@katie-ampersand]

unexpected for a gaming forum, i know

[@spacejunk2186]

Wonder how many users got banned for the pettiest reasons possible.

[@emperortgp2424]

@@spacejunk2186 Sometimes I feel like I might get banned just for browsing that forum... as a guest.

[@chuckwood3426]

@@spacejunk2186 You could see that just about half the posters that gave the quotes TRO showed was already banned!

[@bigvis9621]

Katie & Considering it‘s resetera it‘s even less of a surprise

[@dexterbarlow-busch4127]

wait this isn't an in-depth analysis of all 57 precepts of zote through 10 different philosophical lenses each

[@SpoopyChicken]

Unsubbed smh.

[@charliecrook9555]

through a certain lens, it could be

[@807D14M0ND5]

Do not search for him for Zote is all and all is Zote

[@KeithGrant]

The criticisms of HK's pacing are interesting to me in the context of Ori... I found both Ori games to progress way too fast. I felt like they didn't make me work for the next power up. I got power up A, and before I really have time to explore it and see what new things I could do, oh look, power up B. It never left me *really hoping* I could find that next skill. Instead, the skill was handed to me before I even realized I might need it. Sure, it was fun to be super powered at the end, but by then, I felt like I had already rushed through 90% of the game and didn't really have much left to do with that power.

[@somethingsomething2541]

If u consider dash and double jump as a powerup, then i have some sad new for u.

[@captainjames4649]

thats just not true lol

[@MouhibBayounes]

They are not? ​@@somethingsomething2541

[@dj_koen1265]

I agree the pacing in wotw feels off to me

[@Bourikii2992]

Hollow knight takes like 20 hours on a first play to actually get good (aka unlocking double jump and wall jump).

[@ThatRandomError]

guy we all agree that silksong is a rip off of hollow knight

[@serioussponge6416]

Moral of the story: Copying other artists and art forms is a part of art and the pursuit of the perfection of said art. However, copying other artists with the only motivation being to leech off of their success with minimal effort is generally an uncool thing to do and certainly does not help perfect the art form, only pollutes it.

[@etaquince5220]

Tbf most of the time, souless leeches are just that: souless product

[@Im_SSJay]

@@etaquince5220 exactly

[@nikkoa.3639]

"Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn." - T.S. Elliot. Ironically enough, other artists such as Pablo Picasso stole that line

[@unlimited8410]

@@nikkoa.3639 You can never be too sure if he stole that line himself

[@nikkoa.3639]

@@unlimited8410 In fact he did! I just shared the most succinct version but it comes from an even longer quote. I can't post it here though so you gotta do some digging. It goes way farther

[@RelyeaGaming]

Amazing video. Like a full on documentary. I’m blown away by the quality. 1:09:55 missed opportunity for Wayward compass brought my dad home joke. Other than that, perfection

[@smo7089]

AND we're also provided with the entire script and a complete list of all the sources + music credits... Outstanding. I feel like I should have paid for this video, damn.

[@JouganNeon]

I’m mad that he didn’t do that joke. I’m physically in pain now

[@SymmetricalDocking]

If he touches it up for the Deluxe Video Edition, he also missed the chance to go back and re-reference his 10:39 Notch quote. Games will be the best they ever be if you take inspiration from everything, but if your timing is during the peak popularity of a game you take heavy inspiration from, wrong or not, it will come across to the audience as inauthentic money chasing.

[@jamessturrs8550]

Wayward Compass is amazing but there's no way it's that powerful... Is there?

[@HuManl0g]

Yo

[@XnonXte]

Can't believe I just watched a full 1 hour video comparing hollow knight and ORI that contains lesson about game development and metroidvania history in general. Great video btw! Way to end it a really good and considerate conclusion.

[@paulsmith410]

I was concerned about Crowsworn the first time I saw the trailer. The movement and animation of the character was what seemed far too much like Hollow Knight. Since then, I've seen a little bit more of the direction they are going with it and can say I'm excited to play it.

[@theblob2937]

“The perfect game,” in my opinion, is not achievable. Even within a certain genre, different tastes appeal to different games. I once saw someone saying that the bugs in cyberpunk 2077 made the game more immersive. They ENJOYED the bugs. Heck, B games like Sexy Hiking have a certain charm that some people love. So video games are like food. You can make YOUR perfect metroidvania, but it’s impossible to make one for all.

[@b222a5]

Well if video games are like food then Hollow Knight is my KrispyKreme Doughnuts.

[@alfalldoot6715]

Yeah but that was just hyperbole from Moon Studios.

[@randomnerd4600]

i like mm2, its a fun nes game, but ask a random gamer and they will say its too hard. so yeah.

[@MakenaForest]

@@randomnerd4600 mm2 isnt too hard, but it shows its age in many ways. if i trusted the devs with a 2d remake, id ask for one

[@randomnerd4600]

@@MakenaForest i said hard for a random gamer, not for a skilled gamer

[@icannotdoanytrickssadly1369]

looking at ori and hollow knight, i've always kept the "two cakes!" philosophy, they're both very near and dear to my heart

[@icannotdoanytrickssadly1369]

I don't, no, sorry :(

[@maxsam]

@quân nguyễn hồng That game is called Blasphemous

[@erberor8007]

Yeah, and I mean, I go to hollow knight for totally different reasons from Will of the Wisps. Hollow knight has crisp combat, difficult and thrilling boss fights, and *dat LORE*. Meanwhile I'm off to Will of the Wisps for incredible feeling movement, fantastic beauty and unmatched *VIBES*.

[@peregrine4430]

@@erberor8007 precisely my feelings

[@meowsuo]

such an excellent video,I subscribed to a likeable youtuber of a game I was obsessing over but it turns out he can make some of the most compelling video esseys on the site,the jokes all hit,the self awareness,the pacing,the respectfulness and positivity which didnt feel forced, chef's kiss

[@MicOfWhy]

Imagine buying Wayward Compass to actually use it on map instead in boss fights to make them easier

[@successfulfailure1298]

Seriously, wayward compass is the only reason I made it through radiant markoth. Such a life saver

[@Chris-rz3wq]

Fittingly enough, Hornet's movement in Silksong is looking like it will resemble Ori's.

[@deadhelix]

If twi great games bounce ideas off each other it can only elevate them more so I hope both studios do this and are ok with it

[@kinggrimm2700]

I think it would be cool if hollow knight and ori became like metal gear and splinter cell Competitors that have mutual respect for eachother

[@shalvei_]

From the trailers I've seen, yeah, the movement is a bit more complex, but it doesn't look nearly fluid enough to resemble Ori

[@hundvd_7]

Just like how Ori copied a lot of its combat from HK, but it doesn't look nearly responsive enough to resemble The Knight

[@mauled2death]

tbf silksong was originally just an add-on to hollow knight and was being worked on immediately after its release

[@a2zistoolong448]

I've never played HK, but i loved both Ori games. Part 2 was so well written, it made me shed a tear for that ending movie. I wish I could delete my memory just so I can have that same experience again...might try HK

[@jondysayz]

You should! I'm looking into getting the ori bundle soon. I'm not sure how the world building was with Ori, but HK is a bit different than most games with story telling. I'd say it's another similarity it shares with DS in the way they hide away lore in item descriptions that you can piece together with what you discover within the game, rather than a straightforward narrative.

[@kapitankapital6580]

I played both Ori games back to back before watching this video, and I think for me a big part of what makes Will of the Wisps seem so Hollow Knight-esque is just how different it is from Blind Forest right from the start, and pretty much every change makes it more like Hollow Knight. I think as the game develops it starts to get more of its own identity, but especially in that first section where they're introducing you to the new mechanics and you're going "oh, like Hollow Knight" really cements in your mind the connection between the two. In the end, Ori 2 feels like a cross between Hollow Knight and Blind Forest, and I think given the clear competitive attitude the developers had with HK that that is no accident.

[@penjamin1479]

Seeing how team cherry handled crowswarm makes me really happy.

[@SalemWolf]

Same, knowing they're helping on it is going to make me pick it up when it comes out. At this rate I'll need it to fill the void until Silksong releases. Please be soon ._.

[@lukeryall3309]

@@SalemWolf i think croswarm looks really cool and i think i might buy it when it comes out

[@catkingmiow4279]

I love how it has *gun*

[@yenhsiangtseng1154]

Making me feeling this is how things should be like. Especially comparing with Mahler, I instantly got mad when I saw the words from him.

[@zojirushi1]

What part does team cherry have in helping crowsworn?

[@SonicHaXD]

This video reminded me of YMS's video about Kimba. This was an absolutely fantastic essay XD

[@mossbag69]

Thanks! That Kimba video is great!

[@harpot678]

@beef business lol did you watch the video

[@spinningwhitefan]

So this video is a YMS Lion King vs Kimba rip off?

[@gregrothschilds8453]

@beef business Thinking that a game took inspiration from another just bc it has basic and the most surface level shit present is just proving why the Hollow Knight community doesn’t understand a thing about game design. You ppl seriously looked at Ori’s light sword and thought “wow that’s like the nail” as if having the starting weapon for a player character being a melee weapon isn’t one of the most common things done in games. Heck you ppl did the same thing with the NPCs and I even saw some ppl saying that Ori 2 having a spider boos fight is like Nosk even though both those fights have zero similarities at all in both attacks and the phases. Look I love both the Ori games and HK. They are absolutely amazing games and both do their own things in the best way possible on top of playing to their own strengths.

[@ZayZayZayZay]

@@gregrothschilds8453 so the takeaway is don’t take online discussions too seriously because you have no clue who is behind that comment and what knowledge or experiences they have. Could be some 12 year old who doesn’t know better or a 30 old man who refuses to learn. Either way you’re only gonna get frustrated trying to reason with any online mob. Also generalizing a whole community not to understand something as complex as game development is a pretty funny statement. Not everyone who enjoys or hates a marvel movie is gonna understand all the work that goes into it.

[@SuperGoose42]

I played Hollow Knight AFTER the Ori games. I loved all 3 games, I never noticed any significant connection between Hollow Knight and Will of the Wisps while playing them.

[@iHateHandlesGetRidOfThis]

I'm sorry... but just got to 4:19 where somebody says "if i fail it's because of my own mistakes... huh that reminds me of another game" which REALLY feels like "Man this game is well designed, it must be a clone of this other game i like" to me.

[@chettubetcha1264]

I really feel like Tom Mahler totally missed the point in Hollow Knights' pacing. You're exploring a wasted kingdom, ravaged by a disease. It's not going to be a lot of high octane gameplay constantly. The kingdom and it's relics are lost and forgotten, so of course you need to search high and low for them. Imagine walking through a castle in medieval England after all the inhabitants died to the Black Death. I think It's supposed to be lonely and oppressive feeling at times, and it's an effective story telling tool.

[@loftwingheropon2743]

Much like one of the games it’s compared to dark souls. Or atleast the first game which can be pretty slow without bonfire warping for the first half of the game.

[@amitaish1055]

The funniest thing about it is that it is pretty similar to ori and the blind forest on that term, literally his game

[@sprazz8668]

It's fair enough that he didn't like it - HK's slow pace isn't for everyone, narratively relevant or not

[@davidsplooge14]

@@amitaish1055 not really

[@salsalvador3354]

@@sprazz8668 you are entirely correct, mahler didn’t really seem to think that the pacing seemed unfitting for hallow knight, rather, he seemed to dislike the pacing in a game like that in general

[@hyperspace2752]

This like how people compared the Souls games to every action game release afterwards. Metroidvania is a genre. Hollow Knight pushed the genre to new heights and introduced many innovations that other developers took notice.

[@San-lh8us]

yes, and hollow knight itself used many many mechanics present on the older metroidvanias, people become obsessive with the games they like a lot, and make their judgement biased, every game can be described by a variation of another game, it's not like every single game is a copy of another one

[@privatizitat815]

"This is the hollow knight of dark souls games"

[@evrimenustun9548]

@@San-lh8us Doesn't matter if people get obsessed with the said games or not. Games like Code Vein or The Surge wouldn't exist without FromSoft games, period. The difference between Hollow Knight and Dark Souls is that Dark Souls was the first of its kind (besides Demon's Souls obviously) while Hollow Knight was the one that repopularized its kind. Metroidvania before Hollow Knight was a thing. Soulslike before Dark Souls wasn't.

[@evrimenustun9548]

Metroidvania is too broad of a term to be classified as a genre. I like to think of it as a design philosophy, just like soulslikes, immersive sims and RPGs. There is really no clear explanation on what games belong on the mentioned "genres".

[@Jeanssj98]

hollow knight introduced many innovations? Really? Like what?

[@PokeBallerLuke]

what an incredibly well made video, your dedication to true & focused research is honestly inspiring

[@Galeek_]

28:15 Just noticed the guy in the background died to the asphid fight.

[@ashguycomedys]

Both Ori and Hollow Knight are fantastic games on their own. I don't know what's up with gamers thinking that if a similar game is good it takes away from their favourite game

[@HealingBlight]

>"Salty Manbaby" >Reset Era The Obsidian Void calling the kettle black.

[@7rock7]

ori actually floored me on how perfect it was and it’s easily one of my favorite games which is really high praise from someone someone who really doesn’t enjoy platformers (except the 3d Mario games), 2d games, or single player games. To me at least I don’t really care how much something copies something, as long as it’s enjoyable I think it’s great.

[@quoamrossm8892]

17:18 I forgot we were even talking about Ori and Hollow Knight, lmao

[@RealCutieMutie]

Same lol

[@JoshForeman]

I worked on Ori &twotw during its last year of development. (A bit; I was mostly working on their upcoming game) So I can't speak to the specifics of how influential HK was in the formative phase. But I can speak to the design process I've been a part of in games in general over the past 26 years. I think you captured a lot of great nuanced truths about the creative process in this video, and I'm really impressed by your thorough research and presentation. Also, having worked with Thomas every day for 9 months, I think you summed him up perfectly when you said he's like an onion. ;P Anyway, one thing you touched on at the end that I think the general public doesn't understand very well is that when a team is bigger than one or two people, the influences from other games (this applies to all collaborative artforms) leak in from many places. The vast majority of systems are designed in groups, and the individuals in those groups will have their own influences and experiences. Since no one can play everything, it's pretty common for an idea to be proposed that is a direct copy of another game, and most people in the group don't even realize it. There have been times I'll propose an idea I think is brilliantly original and a co-worker will say, "Oh, you mean like X?" and I'll realize I played X and had forgot the source of the idea. So I think that digging into one or two developer's statements about inspirations is just not even close to sufficient. (Unless the team is only one or two people.) And I'm really glad you recognize that fact and said as much near the end. I'm also really impressed how accurately you articulated the core difference between these two games. Thomas is a perfectionist, and the moment-to-moment platforming and combat challenges were an obsessive focus for him. For me and the other level designers it was many many many revisions of every tiny detail until it felt right to him. (you can't have the onion without the tears) This is a very tree-heavy approach that makes it easy to lose the forest. I think the HK team was probably balanced the other way. More focus on the forest, less on the trees. Which gives the two games unique strengths and weaknesses. Which reminds me of another great insight you shared... the lore-crafting hook of HK being a massive ingredient to it's success. It's an open invitation to speculate. But Ori is a closed story. You experience it once and it's pretty clear what just happened. Anyway, really glad I stumbled across your channel. I'm subbed now and looking forward to seeing more good stuff!

[@mossbag69]

Thanks for sharing! It's nice to hear from someone with experience in the industry.

[@berrydelightdiwizin]

Thank you. I always believed that the game was inspired from HK.

[@spellsnare]

man the game you work on was really fun even if thomas did pick idea from HK i have np when they pick inspiration about another game. i did play those 2 games and they both fun in they own right you and your team and thomas did a excellent job to tell the story with Ori. now moon studio is a studio i will keep a close eye on them because what you did says about thomas is a perfectionist and i like those kinds of devs they not take they fan already owned that a long process to have the trust of fan and gamers with a studio that could easily be destroyed in a matters of days or month (example : Cyberpunk 2077, the current state of blizzard) i really hope you continue to work with moon studio and thomas he seem a fun dude to work with, moon studio now work on a new IP so i will keep a close eye on that

[@badbitch9773]

Ty for the sa my guy

[@delaneyelekes8660]

Kinda curious, how do you feel about the way Ori and the Will of the Wisps turned out? I think the story's ending had too much tonal whiplash which, while sad, felt less like a self sacrifice ending turned a blessing in disguise, and felt more like seeing a family member get hit by a truck and then happy music playing when their corpse immediately bloomed in flowers. But otherwise, I think it's one of the best Metroidvanias out there, with visuals that rival Hollow Knight's in terms of detail and quality, gameplay that's far more polished in terms of movement, smooth combat (though it's a shame there aren't more bosses or a boss rush mode to push the combat to its limits on), and an otherwise good story. It's a high recommendation for anyone interested in the genre, up there with Hollow Knight, just for poetically opposite yet similar reasons.

[@Gortall]

When everyone is making Battleroyales and MOBAs, nobody bats an eye. But when someone takes inspirations from an great and beloved masterpiece and tries to make their own game even as good, everyone looses their minds. Since I saw how much Ori 2 took from Hollow Knight from the trailers, I've been on board with it. HK exists now, and Will of the Wisps only became better for it. I loved playing both of them, and I can only be happy that there's more content that I enjoy around.

[@sergeydoronin1579]

Actually, accusations of plagiarism or "it's too much like another MOBA" are quite ordinary in MOBA community. I remember users who would say that Mars (Dota2) is a Pantheon (LoL) ripoff or that Valve plagiarized Monkey King from LoL when creating their own Monkey King. Also, when dota 2 introduces new mechanics from time to time, some idiots say:"Geez, they stole that mechanic from League/Hots/", that was the case with talent system and new abilities that get activated when you hit enemies a number of times. When Valve introduced some goofy and cartoony characters in the last years (Hoodwink, Willow, Snapfire) people were complaining about Dota turning into LoL, even though cartoony and goofy characters have been a part of Dota character roster for almost a decade.

[@purestofsouls]

MOBA?

[@xcbzxv194]

@Gortall They do bat eyes of course, the PUBG studio even sued Epic over Fortnite, which is especially funny since Fortnite is probably the most unlike the others, but it's the biggest, so a juicy target.

[@sergeydoronin1579]

@@purestofsouls If you are wondering about the abbreviation, it's Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Such games as Dota and League of Legends belong to this genre.

[@purestofsouls]

@@sergeydoronin1579 ooooh ok gotcha. Thanks! It’s not my preferred gaming genre so I was a bit confused.

[@sonikyuu7970]

13:48 AT THIS POINT I FORGOT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HK AND ORI AT FIRST LMAOO good video

[@giggycresent2757]

the one takeaway I got from this video: Crowsworn looks awesome

[@jamesoconnor5800]

Thinking of the idea of the "perfect" metroidvania, it could be argued that Will of the Wisps would inevitably be more like Hollow Knight because it had to make its combat better and Hollow Knight has one of the best 2D combat systems. Similarly, Hollow Knight had more rigidity and "grid-ness" in its world and platforming, and we've seen that Silksong is trying to improve on that. So, Silksong is making Hollow Knight more like Ori. Both games trying to strengthen their weaknesses inevitably leads to them meeting somewhere in the midsle

[@thesnatcher3616]

Well said. Beautifully said. Although I do think the gridlike structure of Hollow Knight allows for some extremely tight and intense sequences that can't necessarily be found anywhere else.

[@shieldgenerator7]

good point

[@Slender_Man_186]

Hollow Knight’s combat system is bland af, what are you talking about? It’s literally just basic swinging, it lacks any depth or flavor, the combat is just bland.

[@akirathewildcard9625]

@@Slender_Man_186 have you played it past the first boss and if you have what did you have when you stopped it does evolve

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@akirathewildcard9625 well what do we mean by “first boss,” because every game now has like 20 minibosses before the *actual* first boss? I got to that little town that I’m pretty sure was after a small area and a boss, but after that the game just lost me. From what I’ve seen of late game combat, and I’ve sat through the entire final boss, it’s still just swinging. The movement changes a lot, that evolves to the point where you can fly across the map, but your combat abilities seem to remain pretty stagnant.

[@punchy8463]

the ori games and hollow knight are both very near and dear to my heart and it is incredibly refreshing to see a more nuanced analysis on how these games are similar to one another without diminishing the value and enjoyment that either of the games (including the ones that came before, and will continue to come long after) bring - i was nervous when i heard you were making an ori video, but this was a very very pleasant, informative surprise, definitely worth the subscribe.

[@namemycactus]

This was a really interesting and well done video. It was like the best kind of documentary

[@smeatar]

I haven't finished the vid yet but it's funny seeing Tom talk about "making the perfect metroidvania" because Ori honestly didn't even really feel like a metroidvania to me. Meanwhile Team Cherry apparently don't even care about the metroidvania genre but they made a game that really encompasses what makes the genre so much fun for me.

[@daltooinewestwood6380]

The “thorn” point can be explained by the localization focus that the ori dev team has. Everyone knows what thorns do in games, and it’s easier to translate a single descriptive word for multiple languages

[@miguelcom13]

i think the thorn point was a joke, the thorm shit is use in a lot of games and do the same shit in ever game

[@jimbopkiller3844]

Honestly as long as people use it in moderation and admit to it I think taking inspiration from things is great

[@thesnatcher3616]

Hollow Knight is a result of Team Cherry taking inspiration from other "older" Metroidvania titles, so yes, I agree. There is a fine line between "inspiration" and blatant "copying".

[@thefebo8987]

@@thesnatcher3616 Hollow Knight is literally Dark Souls in 2D, especially the atmo and even some mechanics.

[@Username-de8tt]

Exactly, some of the biggest game series of all time have clearly taken influence from other games and that’s great. Pokémon was definitely inspired by megami tensei, final fantasy and dragon quest, ect.

[@007megaoof]

@@thefebo8987 the lore is way too much like dark souls

[@Deadnight-ei6lp]

@@007megaoof and that's a problem?

[@joshmay2944]

17:29 blew my mind... are there any other examples of portmanteaus of portmanteaus? Also, i got so engrossed in the Fortress Craft section of the video I totally forgot this video was about Ori, lol. This is some of your best work yet though, thanks for posting!

[@bctalicorn809]

I hope the rest of the world adopts the Japanese term "search action" for this genre of game. It's just broad enough to inspire creative divergence, but specific enough to know what you're getting into.

[@meriotroid]

Since Metroid was inspired by the movie Alien, every Metroidvania is, in fact, also a ripoff of Alien. Literally everything is inspired by something else and no idea is entirely original

[@pepi7404]

Every piece of media is a rip off of that one guy pressing his hand on the wall of a cave.

[@mhb8538]

Metroid was also inspired by... Mario and Zelda, and so were many many other games. Most of the gaming industry is obviously a ripoff of Mario and Zelda

[@meriotroid]

@@mhb8538 Mario was inspired by Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong was inspired by Popeye. Metroid Popeye ripoff???

[@JadeFoxAlpha]

Alien is a rip-off of the WW2 British pilot folklore of "gremlins," evil entities which would rip planes apart from the inside while crews were still flying them. The original pitch for Alien was even set in a WW2 bomber.

[@paddyq3235]

"There is nothing new under the sun"

[@thenordicspirit]

"Also, Lupo doesn't have a smoking hot trophy wife." Thank you for that. I needed a good laugh today. Great video.

[@augumon05]

Great line, but as an aside, he started commenting about the mapping system instead of how you end up getting the map which is I think he lost a little on the point of the comparison of the travelling cartographers located in the area being how one gets the area's map. Outside of that, I highly agree with almost all the points made.

[@AdvancePlays]

It's silly, who would argue the strength of hollow knight is in its mechanical innovation? It's the mechanical blend and polish that sets the game apart, on top of the magical setting and narrative. It's like going "I liked that book I just read, but it used too many words from that last book!" - these individual mechanics are just fundamental building blocks of game design now.

[@NinjaGidget]

Getting a slight hint of tsundere from Mr Muhler.

[@BEkov-kd8cf]

I feel Hollow Knight introduced a lot of younger people to the metroidvania genre and thats why they accuse every new metroidvania like grime or ender lillies of being clones. To them hollow knight is THE metroidvania so anything thats inspired by it even slightly when making a new metroidvania is automatically a clone. The larger fanbase is definitely a reason for how aggressively new games are accused of being clones as well.

[@hossenkhaled8379]

not only that, most of HK's young fanbase don't even know what a metroidvania is, they played HK and called it a "souls-like", but the game isn't a souls-like and thus have a lot of differences from that genre so when a game is actually made a metroidvania, they find it more similar to HK than any other souls-like game and call it a clone

[@SuperNeilAdams]

@@hossenkhaled8379 In fairness HK really was the Dark Souls of Metroidvanias when it came out, mostly because of the use of the 'return to where you died to get your points back' mechanic but also because of its unforgiving difficulty. Obviously there have since been much more deliberate attempts at integrating the Souls experience with Metroidvanias (Salt & Sanctuary & Blasphemous both come straight to mind but I know there's been a fair few more of that ilk), but it was one of the fairer instances of reviewers and gamers reflexively yelling "Dark Souls" at the time.

[@spinyfurball7578]

I’m genuinely sorry that my age group do this shit

[@acehughj4527]

@@SuperNeilAdams ...that's not true though. Majority of metroidvanias are much more unforgiving, though the point regarding the return to point of death to retrieve power/geo is fair.. checkpoints are not new. Theyve long been parts of old games and certainly metroidvanias. Hollow knight was simply the one that got most popular for this new age group.

[@SuperNeilAdams]

​@@acehughj4527 "Majority of metroidvanias are much more unforgiving" Eh? Like which? I'm going to have to ask for a long list if you really believe HK is disproportionately easy compared to other similar titles. It's a good game and I'm glad it's helped reinvigorate the genre, I don't understand this need to look down on younger generations for not being born at the same time as us and being brought up on the same games. It's very odd.

[@codyjacobs3314]

I personally love both games equally. Hollow Knight is mysterious, dark, and expansive, which is what really drew me in and immersed me into the game. Ori is vibrant, fluid, and just awe inspiring though. I think both games are amazing for people that love metroidvania, but Hollow Knight is harder to get into for people that aren't experienced with these types of games.

[@spymaster1]

@@jaretco6423 how is the map system a mess in hk?

[@spymaster1]

@@jaretco6423 It’s one of my favorite games of all time (only really beaten by portal and portal 2) so I am biased here but I do agree that it is certainly confusing on your first playthrough. When I first played it I was lost & didn’t progress even to the first boss without a guide opened on my phone. The saving issue is definitely annoying though lol when I first beat the second hornet fight it was so much more annoying because the closest bench was still far away and I’d get torn a new one by the primal aspids along the path to the fight and luckily hornet isn’t hard or else I’d have a much harder time. If you’ve unlocked the dreamnail, once you get 900 essence you can place down dreamgates in any location you want and teleport to them for the cost of one essence per teleportation and trust me they make everything so much easier. I unlocked dreamgates on my first playthrough before fighting traitor lord (which is needed to get half of the kingsoul to progress further to 4/5 of the endings in the game) and the area with his fight is annoying to get to and still have full health because it’s a platforming area full of spikes & all his attacks do two points of damage. So I plopped a dreamgate right outside his arena and prepared myself at the closest bench and just teleported back everytime I died. It makes life easier But I’m rambling. Honestly I’d recommend trying to figure it out again on your own, or with a guide, because it really is an amazing game once you get a hang of it Actually I need to ask, did you beat the game at all? How far did you get?

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 it's not a mess. It was designed that way for people who like and understand the challenge of a mystery. You may prefer how Ori designed or implimented it but that doesnt make HK map a mess.

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 no it's not. Your just dont like figuring it out which is part of the design. Otherwise they would have made it simple. You dont get it. That's fine. It's not you cup of tea. That very mess you hate is what made me and my son love the game even more. It wasnt designed for you at all.

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 you dont understand why it was designed like that. Had it been done the way you like it, it would have destroyed the larger design aspect of the game. Which I suspect you dont care about. It was parfect for the design and functioned the way it should. What you find lacking was intended and worked according to the game's design. Trying to figure out how to navigate, connect, read the map was part of the charm. It was one big mystery. Something the video explained clearly. You confuse your preference to poor design.

[@kylewatson6890]

My favorite part of hollow knight was actually the beginning where the combat was most simplistic lol.

[@MediumApe36]

Interesting that on my first play through I never once thought(outside of like the first 8 hours) that the game dragged in or had poor pacing. I was always intrigued to learn more about the story or find a new charm and was more than excited to get every ending and find every secret

[@tsirakura1684]

Idc how much will of the whisps took, I still love it. And that sound track is a banger

[@le_quill8968]

I feel ori and hollow knight are different enough to be their on thing, sure there were inspiration taken from hollow knight but that’s a great metrovania to take inspiration for your mechanics.

[@Tad_bit_of_Skill]

Here was me, expecting a cool short mossbag video I did not expect to go on this wild ride thanks mossbag and I know this video is very old I didn't watch it because I had finished will of the whisps

[@Tad_bit_of_Skill]

Hadn't*

[@DementedDuskull]

54:54 Love this subtle jab at Nerrel.

[@KaryonTheirStory]

All I know is the ending to Will of the Wisp could make a grown man cry, especially if you loved the first game

[@itsalejandroe]

Specially when you think there will most likely not be a third game in the near future, also since there really isn't that much they can improve or create new mechanics on, or atleast from what I can see, just hope their new takes on new genres are good, just hope they kinda get rid of that mentality of making the best games in said genres

[@delaneyelekes8660]

I agree, but I don't really feel it's in a good way. I mean, a loved one out of nowhere getting hit by a bus would make you cry too, but I don't feel like that means you're having a good experience.

[@ithereos9554]

I don't think it was that good, it goes for the full "feelz" but honestly I feel like it fell short of what I could have been. I prefer not to spoil but I'll say they set up a specific character to have a much more satisfying and complete ending and they just gave them a couple lines instead lmao.

[@delaneyelekes8660]

@@ithereos9554 Ori Will of the Wisps has an emotional ending, but not in a good way. It's sad in the same way seeing a family member get hit by a truck is sad. Your goal for the ENTIRE game is to reunite Ori and Ku, and go home happily. And then last second, with no warning, it throws out that Ori has to become a tree for the rest of his life. He essentially dies, in the span of five seconds you see Naru grow old and die, and Ku fly away. And now HAPPY CREDITS MUSIC, YAY!! It's the definition of tonal whiplash. The player has no time to prepare for Ori's "death" of sorts since it's introduced last second. And they try to salvage it by having him turning into a tree be presented as... a... happy ending? What? But, that's not how the player sees it? It's emotional, just not in a good way. I feel like people who get hit hard by the ending just assume that the fact it made them feel something means it's good, but who wanted to see a tragedy strike after beating the first game and seeing Naru and Ori happily living together?

[@Krystalmyth]

@@itsalejandroe You would have to care about the characters in Ori to cry. I have no idea how you establish a relationship with these stuffed animals standing around breathing in this beautiful world.

[@Shadic4101]

Moral of the story: the general audience doesn't know what they're talking about and have no idea what certain terminology means

[@MichaelReznoR]

*certain vocal individuals

[@thewanderingartists]

Protip: never have twitter.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Protip: If you must have Twitter, either heavily curate it or make your channel an advertising channel.

[@destinyhunter1926]

@@MichaelReznoR no correction was needed. The general audience wont research a topic enough to back up their opinions, its not just a "vocal minority"

[@miamesa8652]

You are the first comment I see anywhere, that ever sums up what it's like to be a game designer, the general audience constantly bashes the devs of just about any game with "You're doing that bad, this would be better that way" or "You don't know how to do your job", ESPECIALLY in competitive games. People need to understand two things : 1. Game designer is a job, not something anyone randomly picks up, there's studies that go behind it, you constantly need to learn and adapt (improvise. overcome.), And people need to realise that there's a LOT that goes on behind the scene that makes it so that something that seems great on paper, doesn't actually work once in game (Looking at you, overwatch players that think jetpack cat would be a good character) 2. There is no "I" in a company, A gaming company isn't a single entity, it's a bunch of people that can both work together, but also share their struggles. Anywhere from the legal team of the company all the way to the concept artists, and going through the budget management, there can be issues Imagine you have this cool concept for a new character, and he can do cool stuff and all, that character is great on paper yeah... Now ask the art team, can you make it, but not just make it look good, it has to be visually appealing to the audience, it also has to fit the theme of the game, the character also needs to convey who they are and to an extend, what they do... Nope, character abilities are too dark for the game What about programmers? Oh the engine can't actually handle that... Well do we have the budget to rewrite the engine, guess we need to have a meeting about that, discuss if it's worth... And then even if that goes through, does the playstyle of the character work well with the core gameplay of the game? Does the character fit in well with the rest? What about the lore of that character? And then back to the art team again because the abilities are pretty, but the readability is bad. So yeah, stop thinking "Oh but the design team did a bad job on this character because it's not fun to play/ugly/unbalanced they didn't do that because they don't know what's good" To get my point further, as to why certain games are just generally "bad", as a company you can make bad decision early which don't seem bad at this stage, but later down the line, you're stuck with them, and as a game designer, I've learned one thing, the WORST THING YOU CAN EVER DO, is decide to put something good in a game, even tho it goes against what the game is. If your core gameplay has problems, most of the time it's a good idea to keep going with the problems, fixing the core problems aren't a possibility, and if you put one thing that doesn't follow that core gameplay, then nothing in the game is designed around it, and it'll most likely be even worse. tl;dr Game designers and devs know what they're doing 90% of the time, stop thinking you could take their places, you can't.

[@knoxt303]

I've been watching your content for months now but thanks mossbag for reminding me to like this video and finally subscribe.

[@morgana0110]

What sets Hollow Knight apart from other games for me is one thing. Atmosphere. And atmosphere sticks with you for a very long time, no matter how many times you consume the same media.

[@ingeniousclown]

Took me a while to get around to watching this, but even though I love the main content of your video I absolutely love the message at the end: who the hell cares if mechanics are similar if the game is amazing at the end of it all? Purely shameless rip-offs are one thing, but honestly those are really REALLY not as common as the dozens of comments attacking games for mere _inspiration_ would have people believe. Games are made and made _great_ by aping ideas from each other and molding them into something else entirely for their own vision, and to be so narrow-minded as to believe that this somehow takes ANYTHING away from what a game is is almost offensive. Not just to the game being attacked, but this medium as a whole. Oh and thanks for the shout-out! I feel slightly called out for my own comparisons 😂

[@IOSIRIS]

Oh shit mossbag still hearting comments as early as 1 day ago. What an absolute sigma-male gigachad.

[@antthequiet5723]

Exactly, who the hell cares? Just let me play the damn game, it's fun! So glad I found this channel.

[@ikusA74]

Being a player of both of these games, I can say that they both have very different vibes. The areas are all different in both features and mechanics. You can find many good abilities that still very much contrast from both games. Overall, both have feelings that aren’t inflicted in each other. Just know. JUST BECAUSE TWO OR MORE GAMES ARE THE SAME GENRE DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARE RIP-OFFS!!!!

[@abdurehmanmalik2980]

I did find some narrative similarities: both games feature a mysterious plague that corrupts the characters of the game. The 4 Wisps also reminded me of the 4 Divine Beasts from BOTW. I also noticed some mechanical inspiration but not enough for the game to be called a "copy."

[@Jeho-vb7iw]

ur wrong pal!

[@ashreader4883]

I'm a huge fan of both Ori games and Hollow Knight but I really have to agree. The only thing that really matches the two vibes are specific areas. And, let's be completely honest, every single game has similarities from previous games, so saying that something like Ori copied Hollow Knight is just completely ridiculous. Every game has their own little similarities to many other games

[@user-gt2th3wz9c]

Clearly Call of duty is rip-off of Battlefield

[@TacticalPhoenixYT]

@@abdurehmanmalik2980 Would that mean Covid is a ripoff of the spanish flu?

[@forivall]

on the topic of community (~ 52:45), the reason why i really got into hollow knight is that i started playing it because it was in my steam backlog, i started playing it, and then one of my roommates. just started gushing about it, and we were able to connect more through it. and they're how i found out about so much of the lore of hollow knight. In comparison, i played ori and the blind forest years ago, tho it didnt stick as much because it doesn't have the same mystery, story and exploration. Havent played will of the wisps yet though.

[@Ferrero_rocher5782]

Can’t believe both games have characters Literally shaking and crying rn

[@Chestet]

Well, actually, Blind firest doesn't had any NPC before, tho... And after they did applied some NPCs, they are suspiciously similar with HK's ones.... Yeah, totally an coincidence

[@Ferrero_rocher5782]

@@Chestet 🤓

[@Iwilleaturbabieslad]

If ori doesn’t have primal aspids, it’s automatically the best game

[@jonathanmarth6426]

I present for your consideration an entirely text based rpg, only three lines of dialogue long. Entirely without primal aspids.

[@ralphjones1151]

@@jonathanmarth6426 YES! Thank you THANK YOU!

[@amydurham5606]

@@jonathanmarth6426 "you wake up in a room with a single bed, underneath which an object glistens." > look under bed "you look under the bed and find a metal box, already unlocked." > open box "the box was actually a bomb, which promptly explodes, killing you and ending your adventure!"

[@jonathanmarth6426]

@@amydurham5606 Not quite: "you wake up in a room with a single bed, underneath which an object glistens." > look under bed "you look under the bed and find a metal box, already unlocked." > open box "the box contains a primal aspid which promptly kills you, ending your adventure. You feel deceived and humiliated!"

[@amydurham5606]

@@jonathanmarth6426 the bad ending - and yet, the true ending

[@kabershshkabersh4272]

mahler is like that one character in a show always trying to turn everything into a rivalry and the person they're trying to compete with barely knows of their existence

[@mecburnablasta6811]

So basically Zote and/or Tiso

[@uziman477]

The man's oozing salt

[@punkypony5165]

Yeah basically

[@OriginalUnjustifier]

That describes Lambo's relationship to the title character from "Reborn!" absolutely perfectly.

[@omni6982]

No.

[@wizardofarts1276]

Ori and Hollow Knight are both amazing games that focus on different things. They bring different things to the table and I love them both for it.

[@nm9688]

As for the criticism of the slow pacing of HK, that would make sense if you're an experienced gamer. Hollow Knight was basically the first combat based game of its length I have played, so the pacing was a really good learning curve for beginner gamers like me.

[@TheCakeIsntReal]

the comparison sequence reminds of "guy who only played Hollow Knight : hmmm getting a strong Hollow knight vibe from this"

[@gangganggang2219]

Guy who has only seen Beverly Hills Chihuahuas watching his second movie: "This reminds me a lot of Beverly Hills Chihuahuas" A great example of small sample size analysis and comparison

[@Voidalot]

*I don't care if it was Ripped off or not, they are both games that I love and hold deeply in my Heart.*

[@soundonly7155]

I played both and can say it's more inspiration that copy

[@Sougin_0]

Nice

[@damo2304]

It's a joke

[@e.t.1947]

Void heart can talk HOWWWW

[@themarshcat7195]

i’m glad they took from hollow knight, it made will of the wisps REALLY good

[@blackhole8326]

When I read about map-making character comparisons I always immediately think about the map fish in the legend of zelda windwaker which gives you the map parts of the ocean

[@beep_the_foolish]

It is interesting to see developer's different explanations of how they came up with their games. Some will spend a long time explaining that, yes, there was a lot of small pieces of inspiration from various properties, but that it was largely an examination of the genre and common gameplay elements and how they wanted to take these common elements and create something new and exciting, and some will just admit they mashed dark souls and something else together.

[@perezortegavalentin9343]

"Mahler, you have become the very thing you've sworn to outperform" "Actually, my friend, I see through the lies of the Hollow Knight fans. I don't fear the reviewers like you do. I have brought customization, depthness and more rpg aspects to my new game!" "Your new game?!" "Don't make me block you." "Mahler, my allegiance is to moon studios, to the game's quality!" "If you are not with me...then you are my enemy" That was the video's thesis, right? That's what I got, at least. This is also a joke BTW, I'd like to think everyone got that and don't think I'm actively throwing shit at Mahler by comparing him to Anakin.

The Empire did nothing wrong.