Warhammer 40k I Lost a Tournament to THIS

Steve and Ian sit down to chat about the game and list that bested Steve at his last tournament. It sparks a bigger discussion about stacking bonuses, buffs, and de-buffs. Does GW need to look at this?
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[@crsmith6226]

“It’s so tough!” Says the man who plays gravis horde imperial fists :P

[@SpriteAndSmite]

I wildly prefer too durable over too damaging even if it can cause a lot of frustration. Too durable models can be accounted for and played around, but if lethality is so high that even supposedly durable datasheets get pulverized in an instant by pretty much anything meant to deal damage (like in 9th), then all armies turn into glass cannon lists with 0 centrepieces and it becomes a cheap trading game at best or instant wins for whoever gets their preferred initiative at worst. I mean in 9th custodes stood and fell with the players luck in making all those 4++ saves or not and all CPs were spent on turning off rerolls for the opposing army and making it so they couldnt be wounded on a 3+/2+. And then people complain about your army being a mere statcheck when in all reality this was due to the game's lethality alone. No one tried to build for different archetypes and just brought as much cannon fodder as possible to score primary.

[@Sassafras1777]

I am so glad someone brought this up!! I played Custodes in 9th and this is the exact scenario I would deal with every single game. Either I whiffed all my invulnerable saves, or I got lucky and kept my stuff alive and pissed off my opponents. “You’re just a stat check with gimmicky strats!” Okay, and everything you have can one shot me if I roll bad, so we’re at a stalemate 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@carolineturingds]

Wildly durable units cause as much havoc and frustration in the game as wildly killy units. Just take a look at some of the biggest offenders this edition so far: necrons warriors, lychguard, C'tan, canoptek wraiths... orks 18 meganobz bullyboyz, Land Raider spam, 4+ invuln spam.... Statcheck armies are just as boring and bad for the game as any overly offensive army.

[@jprovorse4159]

Our hobby needs more content like this. We all lose. Let’s talk about it. ❤

[@oliverslako592]

It might be an oversight by GW. Case in point it is clearly stated for Tyranid Venomthropes that stealth from their auras does not affect monsters. ''Foul Spores (Aura): While a friendly TYRANIDS unit is within 6" of this unit, each time a ranged attack targets that unit, models in that unit have the Benefit of Cover against that attack. In addition, while a friendly TYRANIDS unit (excluding MONSTERS) is within 6" of this unit, models in that unit have the Stealth ability.''🤷‍♂

[@EverydayEldrad]

I'm loving to see this channel grow. The topics are interesting, the videos not too long and it's great to see the Steve's more serious side. He plays a bit of a (hilarious) part on Play On but it's cool to see that behind it there's just a really experienced Warhammer player with lots of insights on the game. Keep it going guys!

[@spacemarinesteve6057]

Thank you! I really appreciate that!!! PLAY ON!

[@huskerdevil24]

I totally feel what @SM Steve is saying... but min/max finding broken math has always been a part of "competitive" 40k

[@cesarehernendez]

Glad you did a video about what you lost to. Inquiring minds wanted to know...

[@spacemarinesteve6057]

It's hurts to talk about lol but I got through it

[@nicholasd7107]

@@spacemarinesteve6057 We're here for you!😉

[@Legogoliath]

@@spacemarinesteve6057 i hope you know you have inspired me i hopped of anvil seige cause my team told me it was doo doo detachment, im gonan give it another go. and really try to get them to sits value.

[@rebirthclips9028]

Solid work, keep up the great content fellas

[@lupticyt5016]

Blame games workshop. No dark angels player wants to willing choose to play that list, but if u bring anything else dark angels oriented, it’s better to just tick the loss chart and not show up. Dark Angels units are all so mediocre, and the detachments are trash. All that is good enough to honestly even play with and have fun in a casual setting is Azrael and Darkshroud. I wish we didn’t have to touch any base space marine detachments to play our army

[@piotrjeske4599]

My friend is/was a DW terminator army player. He tried to play his army a few times. It was super pillow fisted, slow, with weak range and problems with scoring. Now people told him to play ironwing. But he only picked up DA to play a terminator army. He quit the game this edition. Now he is better then my WS biker army, but it still sucks. My other friend started an ad mecha robot army in 9th. He quit too

[@azrael1045]

I think dark angels are being punished by gw for terminators in 9th. In 11th I think white scars and ravenwing will be meta with all the new mounted units

[@jacksonbedgood2877]

⁠@@piotrjeske4599Dude I know. I started 10th with DA and I was super excited to play DW. At the beginning they were fine but DW got neutered in the codex with no customization, they’re just regular terminators with a 1+ to hit if you’re attacking the oath target. Not to mention the removed a whole terminator unit and a character too.

[@Syst3m04]

@@piotrjeske4599I will say if they are playing with the expectation of always being good, it was never going to last. There will always be highs and lows with an army.

[@cntipede1000]

There will also always be combos people find in the game Dark Angels happened to find this one. I don't see it as abusive another thing is people think -1 damage is amazing when it's really not great.

[@7Falcon8Wings7]

So there are multiple ways to fix something like this. If we’re keeping the core structure of the game intact, one idea is to look at a detachment, see what units/unit types most benefit from it and increase their point cost. This reflects the fact that those units are more valuable in those specific detachments (Ironstorm = more points per vehicle) This can get difficult to properly do, so maybe just increase points on units that repeat (other than Battleline). If 1 Stormraven = 260 points, 2 of them in a list = 550 total or something Another idea is to make the player choose which defensive buffs to use for that round. Ex, a C’tan shard only has access to 1 or 2 of their defensive bonuses at a time (4++, half damage, or 5+++) This can help by labeling special abilities and enhancements and giving them a keyword like Defensive. And overall give a restriction that a unit can only receive the effects of 2 Defensive abilities at a time Lastly, I personally think forcing people to use at least 2 Battleline units in their army can help bring down the amount of buffs, be it defensively or offensively, an army brings. The new mission packs seem to be going in the right direction but I fear it’s not really enough

[@Q22ube]

Assault Terminators 2+ Sv / 4+ Inv Sv with a terminator Chaplin applies a 4+ FNP makes them pretty durable. Added you can rapid ingress them into back lines with Deep strike. Once they’re in melee, can’t be shot by anything. Causes real pain

[@ghost9pm407]

The FNP is only against mortal wounds though so it's not that great. If someone chucks a grenade at you I suppose it's alright but against normal damage it doesn't do anything.

[@spruceschmickington3005]

Ork kill rigs can stack +1 str on Ork units, it isn't nearly as good as +1dmg, but it can create some good break points

[@christopherjuarbe7650]

i fed up so much against C'tans i started bringing a knight with thermal cannon on my astra militarum list.

[@ghost9pm407]

Nice. I run Canix Rex with my Guard for this same reason.

[@obsidi2]

I've faced this before, the 5+ crits with lethal and sustain is nasty. But you target the Ravenwing Darkshroud first (its not lone op), then kill the rest.

[@austibon]

Are either of you going to be attending the Tacoma Open in July? If so see ya there!

[@Tankshock55]

I feel your pain Steve. A guy I know and play against from time to time has a list similar to that. He also runs another tech marine with the other main enhancement of the Ironstorm detachment. It's the list I go up against to see how I can handle a full meta list and get bodied. It's mostly to see what I can do to work around it and survive, maybe pull a win. Not sure what else your opponent's list had, but the guy I play maybe has 2-3 infantry units to attempt to get objectives. His main focus is to kill you before you can get objectives and weaken you enough before spreading out for better board control.

[@VengefulJan]

I think the issue is a lot more rooted than what is perceived. Current 40K is very limited with how you can interact with your opponent. The only form of interaction in this game is in destroying other models. There is no other form of interaction players can have with each other that isn’t just kill the other dudes better. The other mechanics that do exist do not have the “power” or “viability” that GW hopes they would be; Battleshock and Objective Control are both mechanics that the core community have generally proven that they can ignore, as Battle Shock rarely occurs in games, and OC is invalidated by the concept of “a dead unit is OC 0”. There are no core mechanics that allow you to interact beyond these options. Nothing to interact with opponents movement, no effects that impose a choice to your opponent. Currently, as I observe, I just need units that can math out incoming damage, get on the point(s), and kill you if you are on them or get near them. Side note, space marines should go back to be codecies and not supplements, this would tighten up their rules, and make it so you don’t have to buy 2+ books to play your army like last edition.

[@philgagnon275]

At least it wasn't like 7th edition where you had an "invisible" unit with invulnerable 3+(rerolling).

[@Arshelan]

Looking back on the video of your list, I think the issue was the choice of the macro plasma on the repulsor over the heavy laser destroyer. While that could be how the model is constructed, at the same time that was a loss of firepower to your list that could have easily been dropping heavy targets, or even acted as a deterrent for the opponent. Instead you only had the predator for him to knock out and then the Eradicators and then it was clear sailing from there. You may have had toughness built into your list, but your list also didn't have enough elements to counter tougher targets, so once you got to one you hit a ceramite wall worthy of Perturabo's appreciation. Are you able to re-tool the list to have maybe one more unit of anti-tank in it for the future?

[@EverydayEldrad]

It might help or it might not, hard to say without seeing how the game went. But the laser destroyer is two shots so even less likely to hits stuff with a -1 to hit built in. I also don't know if adding more antitank would improve the list as it is a bit of a skew build and those tend to work on a critical mass of something. For example dropping two units of heavy intercessors for say a lancer and change might actually mean that the other hintercessors aren't as effective in what they do. I don't know, just guessing here but that's just my experience looking and playing with skew lists. You lean one way and pray you don't go against your counter. If you do then oh well XD

[@jakslayersyth]

Cases like this remind me of how difficult it probably is to balance marines in 40k, you have to have a variety of units that can mix between different factions. With this you either end up with units that are essentially all the same making them less interesting or overly unique making them a staple to any faction. There's always going to be a level of unfair combos with this system although I definately think it's partially due to d6 of course I am more of a D10 kind of person as working with intervals of 10 is the easiest. On the flip side if you have to be running a tanky unit vs a weak unit in order to have this situation I actually think this is fine. IRL some weapons just simply arent strong enough to damage a tank. From the perspective of balance i think it's fine to be able to disable light fire however from the perspective of fun, implementing a universal situational debuff to units over a certain bonus or limiting buffs in specific situations. At the current state the game is approaching a kinda tank meta in the light vs damage vs tank.

[@khaledibrahim614]

There are once per unit type in a battle round abilities like on the hexmark they may just need to add it to a few extra instances I think.

[@rickbardock6581]

I admit that some armies are pretty powerful with stacking Buffs and all of that. Those super specialized armies were given a very good codex with very good rules and data sheets compared to other armies. It's my belief though that the armies with lesser options need comparable options in order to compete on the level and skill of the armies that got the love and attention they have received. But of course when I think about removing options and removing the complicated rules in this game we all love, Warhammer 40k would make it lesser of a game. They keep on bringing myself to want to switch do another system like one page rules, but every time I do, I missed the complexity that my army of choice has in the system as a whole. One of the things though that Games Workshop definitely need to fix, is include all of the FAQs in one place edit edit edit the Core Rulebook and keep on editing Nearly Everything into just one book, instead of having all these rules everywhere, confusing everyone and especially the newcomers to the game, creating a learning curve that is darn near unbearable. One thing that you guys should probably definitely take advantage of though however is how Games Workshop used to manage the rule set. They're used to say that you should use the rules as a guideline on how to play, add house rules that your community can agree on, going forward the game is meant to be fun through and through. But however if tournament play really means that much to you, you can complain all you want, but until you either make your own game or use the rules as just a baseline, I personally would suggest these other outlooks. Hi myself play tyranid only, most games are very hard and the opposing armies are quite strong, the Mechanics of battle shock being horrible are all just things that I just have to deal with in tournament play if I continue to choose to play that way. Eventually here I will be starting my own game store, I plan on having house rules that my community can agree on and even switching it up, suggesting that our players go back to ninth edition when much of the game was substantially more balanced. Of course integrating somehow the new units from 10th edition, as well as one page rule's unit turn allocation. Naturally this is just my take on the whole rules debacle, as I love the game in the complexity of each of the armies. No other game comes close to offering the complexity that I so cherish about Warhammer 40k, yet being unhappy with the system is not going to upset me too much. All is fair in love and war, but life itself is unfair. Thank you for reading my rant.

[@VengefulJan]

I love your rant, just remember to indent more. Dyslexia can make it a challenge to read validation.

[@legatusnavium7060]

My solution to c'tan. 6x Eradicator in Stormraven. Raven flies in, drops Eradicators inside 9" and then give them +1 to hit and when i can +1 to wound. And nuke nightbringer right off the bat. Works like a charm. Pretty funny doing that turn 1 and see the surprise in my opponents face😁 Shroud has to go to legends or i want my Leviathan dreadnought back😡

[@nicholasd7107]

Similar thought process to this (and I believe you have already made a video on this) is spam in the game. Whether it be dreadnaught spam, C'tan spam, Wardog spam it's all indicative of where the state or well being of the game is currently. IMO there's not enough infantry and the game seems to be very vehicle or "death star" unit heavy. This is my first edition so maybe I just lack perspective, but when you're going up against 10 wardogs and a giant blue bird it starts to feel like the game itself isn't being played as intended. Perhaps that's more of an issue relating to where the players on the "casual" side are. Or at least they claim to be casual, but I feel as though it somewhat applies to the more competitive side as well. Like how you both discussed with the Necron's issue. Unfortunately I have no "fix" to add as this is my first edition and I am a newer player who admittedly lacks perspective. I only hope they build off the "main stream" "easy to understand" aspect of 10th for 11 while trying to make it less vehicle heavy. Just my thoughts though, and I'd be more than open to feedback. Great video as always gentlemen!

[@arianash7763]

great video as always guys :) guess I should get myself a darkshroud as I often don't survive to round 5 haha

[@cameronjohnson4747]

The worst part is...40k already has the rule built in! For example, read the Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnaught's 'Wings of Sanguinius' ability - "Once per turn, at the end of your Movement phase, one Pysker from your army with this ability can use it."

[@crimsonsunbear5732]

As someone who loved Dark Angels for many years and finally building a army the codex was very disappointing (Inner Circle has a bit of potential, but just +1 to wound in a objective is a bit hard to play around when only a small roster gets it is still tricky) and everyone is playing Iron Storm which isn't even supposed to be a DA detachment and destroying with it. no flavor of the dark angels, and when we try to pay with flavor it's floppy as hell. id love for them to go back, rewrit the rules and maybe improve the stats on terminators ( as anything other than face to face fist is basically throwing rocks and a armor of 5 is to low for terminators) but I really don't see it happening, we are only getting admech rewritten and from what they see is that Dark Angels are doing great bases on tournament starts because of two units that someone adds to IronStorm

[@hyperspacehobbies]

Ya the fluff has taken some hits this edition. its weird that Space Wolves play better under the White Scars flag and things like that.

[@spof465]

The main problem in this instance from outside seems to be the Auras stacking. Making what is supposed to be a cool unique thing for a unit and turning it into the army rule. While I would cautious against a blanket thing like one unit firing its special ability, it'l hurt lists like Warpack who want to take something like 2-3 warpsmiths and other weird edge cases, maybe limiting the number of Auras specifically that can fire per round would help?

[@bww33]

Limiting unit types and choices in detachments would be one way to go... If a detachment is designed to be infantry based, don't allow mounted or heavy vehicles in the army, or stealth lists can't include non-stealth units etc etc... That way individual units can be fine tuned for the detachment they go in. It would be limiting on one hand - but on the other, would give the opportunity for a more balanced game.

[@wgarvey84]

Man. Flashback to when everyone was whining that the ravenwing apothecary was OP when they could heal ATV's and attack bikes. Iron hands also got the shaft. Right before oppressive drukari and admech which everyone seemed to be OK with.

[@Grpace7]

It’s not the durability that is the issue it’s the mobility. It essentially always can get an angle in on something meaningful.

[@sinjmckenzie6170]

I do wonder whether pushing the meta slightly towards battleline with the Pariah Nexus will sidestep a lot of the issues where everything is really too tough or really too lethal. Maybe not, I guess we'll see.

[@hyperspacehobbies]

thats a good point. it almost certainly will effect list building and might curb the damage potential (or at least the ability to win by playing only the most powerful stuff)

[@colbybastian17]

I honestly think the toughness range needs shrunken back down. Everything t7 and lower is essentially a different category of combat. A single +1 or 2 str can change you from 4 to hit to 6. But once you get to t8+ you can have weapons with wild differences in strength all be equally useless against them.

[@AtomicZaku]

My Deathwatch runs a very dark angel looking list. It's the only list I've won with. The stormraven in the Ironstorm Spearhead is the best I have to offer. The techmarines keep my predators and dreadnoughts alive and soaking. (I should put some primaris, but it would go against the theme of a firstborn only fortress)

[@RFischer]

Gee Steve. You could have answered my question in the last video. Took me a half hour of searching to find your tournament on Best Coast! Buddy of mine said you were not very good at playing and I defended you saying that you were. I wanted to send him a screen shot of your tournament scores. I agree. As a Dark Angel player, it wounds me that the only lists that win are Ironstorm. The ONLY Dark Angel part is usually Azrael and the Darkshroud.

[@spacemarinesteve6057]

I am definitely better at the game than the videos at Play On would have you believe lol But I don't really play my 2k lists at Play On - those games are more about tossing dice and having a laugh

[@zackariaswade]

Vanguard Spearhead relies on it detachment rule as it's "thing".

[@nickc9210]

This exact scenario is making me really question bringing morty in my DG list. That ignore modifier aura is just clutch sometimes.

[@tastefulavenger]

Make ignore modifiers on elite units more common done.

[@VengefulJan]

It’s not that simple

[@Rd0Lg]

I can definitely see why you're frustrated. I feel similar about stuff like having re-rolls and keywords that are affected by crits on said re-roll, and usually you get several keywords as well, and sometimes it's on 5+. Like, Anvil Siege Force can theoretically get Lethal Hits with Sustained Hits 1 on 5+ with hit re-rolls, which is just an absurd amount of modifiers. Dunno how powerful it is, but in Age of Sigmar, if you have multiple modifiers to a roll, you can only choose one crit ability to activate, so there's no sustained hits+lethals or sustained hits+mortals on hit. It makes things a ton more manageable.

[@thelurker9472]

Glory to the Lion.

[@piotrjeske4599]

If DA had the shroud work only on bikes, then it would see as much play as its brother speeder or the DA flyer. Right now taking it and Azrael is what makes a list a DA one. You know what doesn't have -1D? A regular dread or a custodes contemptor. And neither of those aren't taken.

[@BarkytheWonderSeal]

I was under the understanding that you could only modify a dice roll by 1, they couldnt stack unless it modified a characteristic as well. Like guard with take aim for +1BS and +1 to hit for a heavy weapon.

[@ca11rl77]

Different auras or abilities stack

[@Hoot86]

I love the set design, you guys rock!!

[@danielpankew9371]

The dice is restricting the game a bit, but its not worth arguing over. It does help the theme/setting. What I find absurd is the defense stats of certain armies, like deamons who have a 5+ invul across the board. Whats ap -3...garbage...lol. things like that need to be addressed. The across the board. Well nobody complains when I use my toughness 4 across the board infantry CSM. But thats because I can load out tons of strength and AP weapons loadouts. I just agree with the "across the board" effects that all units can maybe have. Like that Dark Angels stealth across the board, it shows that abilities should be just be an activation one time use or a very weak buff. Like the Dark Apostle, who gives only a +1 to wound in melee. He only leads cultists, chosen, or legionaires. Chosen have a str5 wpn but still, they are way more in points(which helps balance) compared to cultists or legionaires. But still that is a very simple buff and it only buffs one specific function. If more armies were built like that, instead of like say Daemons shadow of chaos, which only works if you use Objective markers, gives across the board. Everything shouldnt stack but be situational. Thats why Starcraft is still being played today. You cant just cant use 1 thing to win and then may the odds be in your favor. You have to use elements besides units. Mind you guys I did leave out terrain in 40k but still, if the terrain is just ruins and your opponent uses infantry with a 5+ invul. Its hard to kill anything in a shooting phase.

[@hyperspacehobbies]

HeY! If you keep bugging me ill go tell the principal!

[@nehemiahgardner3479]

Dark Angel, struggle enough as is they don’t need a nerf more data sheets

[@flint9080]

I'm not sure I follow. It seems like this has little/no effect against a melee army. If you bring all rock, better hope someone does not bring paper.

[@TravelingAnvil]

Watching sisters playing recently it seems like they can do the opposite. Stacking up strength, ap, removing cover. It's a problem when it gets multiple layers deep on defense and offense in my opinion.

[@Robotech2049]

The DA Ironstorm is not new. It’s the only competitive DA list that can win.

[@Sir_Prize427]

Outside of the Techmarine enhancement can't you theoretically do the same thing in Vanguard Spearhead?

[@letsgetit792]

But Vangaurd has zero buffs to vehicles. So while they would be defensively similar the damage output without TAW and MIW drastically goes down.

[@73CHN0M4NC3R]

I play Iron hands and my friend plays Necrons. He had to stop playing his 5 C'tan list. Mercy is weakness and Brutalis+tank shock was too much for them.

[@lorenzosgarallino]

You need some ignore modifiers tool in your list. Also you need some melta, that GW explained bypasses those half damage things. So yoh just need to bring the right tools.

[@chrisprime7767]

Melta ignores half dmg modifiers? Gotta look that up, damn.

[@lorenzosgarallino]

@@chrisprime7767 they apply after the halving

[@lorenzosgarallino]

@@chrisprime7767 so that you do 1d6 with melta bonus 2, you roll 1d6, let's say you roll a 4, you half it to 2 then apply the additionable bonuses ant it goes to 2+2=4. not gamebreaking alone but when 3 go through it is meaningful

[@letsgetit792]

​@@lorenzosgarallino but you have to be in melta range for that to work and with a CTAN that means next turn you are probably getting crushed in melee by it.

[@ImLegendaryMike]

Its hard balancing armies for people whom run spam list and for people whom like running thematic ( flavor) list. Ive done a couple rtt's in my area against spammers with a tac dg list , ive had fun but with frustration against said lists. Maybe they should be tournament league that focuses on thematics/ narrative play. I thought i was the minority with this way of thinking but its an idea

[@clydepworrel1]

I got news for you, GW doesn't give a crap about balance or the game. As they said, they are a miniatures company, they sell miniatures, the game is just a way to sell minis, full stop. Also, Steve is the man.

[@g-monk2775]

Yes, so why doesn't GW sub contact the game to more competent people?

[@comeonnodont5569]

So I think there’s multiple avenues to this which causes a real dilemma. If we removed all stacking then a lot of things would be so much more so Similar that it would remove even more uniqueness (like how people talk about how a lot of army rules are just sustained or perhaps), but by being too diverse it would also cause issue. I like stacking stuff cause it can be fun to find cool combos but the issue is the potential to stack from a single source. Best example I have is tau over the last couple editions. Why did people hate suits? Well one strategem benefiting 9 suits or 400+ points just felt bad to play again. While thing can be restrictive in types we also have to look how it’s applied where I think auras are a big issue because depending on the army giving 2 units stealth vs 6 units stealth is such a major change in benefit per point it’s ridiculous. I’ll have more coherent thoughts once I’m done cooking, regardless enjoyed the video y’all !

[@Rexir2]

DA Gladius Gravis Captain w/ artificer armor Terminator Chaplains Deathwing Knights Redemptor Dreadnoughts Ngl, this sounds like torture

[@kevinvoss1724]

SPACE MARINE STEVE!!

[@spacemarinesteve6057]

YES!!!

[@tyleraddison9062]

Think Gw wants us to combo units but they probably didn't look at every unit combo in the game and how they interact with each other

[@mpbros207]

I would be super frustrated if I got punched down on for bringing multiple things. I love my lemun Russ and rogal dorn tanks, but if their special rule can only be used once then why take any more than one. Abletive plating is great so if I take only one rogal dorn can use it then my other dorns are going to get smoked. I think this is an edge case that was specifically built for. That’s what a comp list does. If I lose my fun stuff that’s fluffy because comp I’d be super frustrated.

[@g-monk2775]

I don't mind when your bonuses apply to your army. I don't like it when your bonuses effect my units. Leave my stuff alone. DG -1 toughness and others like this are annoying. Grenades are a good way to avoid those negs. I think SMS just ran into the perfect opponent for his army. If it makes you feel better I to play Anvil/heavy army, big fan. Keep going fellas, you're doing great.

[@hyperspacehobbies]

Ya getting your own units nerfed is annoying. -2 to movement and charge, that one gets me all the time VS Tyranid. and the DG -1 toughness can make for some bad feels for sure.

[@cameronwoods-reynolds4793]

Steve i know from past videos that youre a teacher, are you a math teacher?!

[@hyperspacehobbies]

Steve is a drama teacher. If he was a math teacher im sure the dice would betray him less hahaha!

[@cameronwoods-reynolds4793]

Right on! I am just wrapping up my first year as a high school trades teacher. Counting down the days until summer break!

[@jackrosman7437]

I love lethal hits

[@letsgetit792]

Allowing the non compliant chapters to use the compliant detachments is creating a real issue in game balance among the SM chapters. There is basically SM and then SM Premium with the divergent chapters having better specialized units. A few fixes could help. Non compliant chapters cannot use codex SM detachments besides 1st company. Non compliant chapter units recieve a points tax when taken in a compliant detachment. So the dark shroud should cost an additonal 20% points in ironstorm. This doesnt address the poor performing SM units like bladeguard but it atleasts levels the field a little. Provide chapter specifi buffs if using your themed detachment. If you play IF in anvil you should get bolter discipline. If you play UM in GTF you should get a buff and so on.

[@ca11rl77]

That would just kill the Marines outright. And most importantly reduce sales.

[@VengefulJan]

Or, give them their own codex, with their own detachments that work for them, and adjust points and abilities for that faction in its own contained book. Now GW just needs to balance 1 book instead of 2, and customers get a full codex experience without having to buy a second book.

[@arthurthegreat3714]

C'tans have counters, I'm just not sure space marines have any. Beast snagga boyz with lethals 5+ absolutely wreck them. Aggressors with 5+ lethals will chew through them I bet!

[@snowbjorne]

If I remember correctly, you xan bring 6 C'tan - three of them are Epic Heroes, but the Trancendant is just a Character so you can bring three. Ridiculous. And youre only at 1705 pts. Its fucking ridiculous.

[@hyperspacehobbies]

Oh ya that the " Im not sure I want to make any friends at the tournament" kind of list. haha but some people love doing that kind of thing, that's how they enjoy the game, watching other suffer hahaha!

[@cirno9349]

I just wants to play stat line vs stat line I don’t want 20 stratagems or faction rules

[@chrisprime7767]

I also think that GW wants to sell these old plastic kits. So give them ridiculous rules, and all the tournament goers will buy one of these. Next edition, guess what, new DA Speeder.

[@Kintizen]

Sounds like 7th edition Death Star

[@hyperspacehobbies]

NO! NOT THAT AGAIN!

[@Kintizen]

@@hyperspacehobbies Look at Impulser/Eliminator combo with 12 D6 DMG.

[@airyman]

I play thousand sons. Magnus is pretty tough and is complained about a lot but most definitely not unkillable. Ctan spam just seems unethical almost. i cant imagine having multiple units that are that tough and require little to no resources to gain that resiliency. that skew has to be offset by something besides a point cost no? never played against it just heard all the horror stories

[@allissonmanzini9806]

Try ONE PAGE RULES!

[@chrisprime7767]

See, I don't get the mentality behind these combos. I'd do this to one opponent and feel bad the rest of the tournament lol I'd much rather lose and play a fun game with balanced lists.

[@piotrjeske4599]

DA without those things aren't balanced they are in fact one of the worse armies in the game, if not played as Ironwing.

[@Meako92]

So what youre saying is the other player did their homework and built a competitive list for a competitive tournament?

[@roytorres4714]

Nah the skill on itself is broken, was already nerfed on a necron index enhancement, should be either -1 to hit or cover not both.

[@azrael1045]

All the kits GW is getting rid of are very good, they have to get rid of the kits they are getting rid of, so why sell at a discount when you can raise the price and create demands by manipulating rules. In 9th it was the old terminator kits, in 10th its land raiders, darkshroud etc...

[@davidjones4772]

Playing vs canoptek court with c’tan and wraiths is not fun for anyone. I’ve shot 1200 points of tau fully buffed into a unit of wraiths before and killed 3/4.

[@hyperspacehobbies]

those wraiths are waaay to durable. I 100% agree

[@desertzombie]

D100s lol

[@EvgeniiShchetinin]

Guys, it can sound really toxic, but we all seen how Steeve plays the game. So please, everyone who thinks the information in this video come from people who play competetive, don't:)) just look for people like art of war who at least understands the thing they are talking about. Sorry for hard truth

[@enoontnatropmi7174]

Demons entire army has 4+ invuls, Armigers have freaking 8 OC and 12 wounds for 140points move 12" have 5+ Invuls to ranged weapons? Necrons, Custodes, grey knight teleporting everywhere, Fate Dice.....so many armies are full of tricky stuff, Dark Angels have little enough awesomeness.... did you read our Codex...don't go there....

[@QisforQadim]

I like to click on videos with people complaining about tiny rules issues in 40k while playing a game system that still runs on 'all my guys move and shoot before you can move and shoot'. It's like watching someone complain that the wallpaper is ugly in their apartment while it's on fire.

[@BoomBoomChicky]

Man goes to competitive tournament. Loses one game, to the overall winner of said competitive tournament. Makes a fifteen minute long video complaining how, essentially, he himself didn't win the tournament. Because at the end of the day, if he had these bonuses but you won two things would have happened. You would have won the overall for the tournament and you wouldn't have made this video. You talk about if things are healthy for the game but don't talk about the counters for these armies you bring up. Hell, at @11:12 in you even admit you played poorly against the opponent and THATs what really caused you to lose. It sounds like you were hard countered, or played against someone who understands the rules/ synergistic capabilities of their army better than you- both of which are a part of Warhammer as a whole, without watering everything back down to Chess. Quit complaining, you're being hypocritical.

[@seanuh60]

Special rules are the worst part of the game. Get rid of them all. If you are hard to wound have a good toughness, if you are hard to penetrate have a good armor save. That’s all you need.

[@thehiddenheretic]

the game is broken because it is focused on competitively focused, it doesn't get better because of it no matter how often they tweak it. If the game is designed to be competitive and they make every army full of special rules we don't get fun and unique lists, we get the best lists over and over. And when someone comes along and breaks the meta all that happens is 100 videos and articles describe in detail what happened and why, and if it is repeatable the list or at least the core of it shift into the new meta. And GW's response? Point tweaks for a year. The rules are the issue, and specifically how many interactions they have built into it with give or take 2k datasheets and dozens of special rules constantly building on each other. But lets keep pretending this mess will ever find balance and these feel bad moments can be fixed with tweaks instead of admitting what the actual problem is.

[@MrBanditoRazor]

Making shit tougher is the wrong way to fix their own self inflicted wound. Make it so REGARDLESS of MW or AP, a model ALWAYS gets a 6+ save. Then you will see armies surviving all five rounds, with a decent amount of models removed, without needing to bake in durability/minis x damage bs.

[@conarbabbitt4795]

Wait, that's not how it works? That's how I've been (I guess erroneously) houseruling that at my tables. And yes, it does result in a lot more survivability.

[@piotrjeske4599]

This would be a game breaking for horde armies.

[@MrBanditoRazor]

@@piotrjeske4599 Shockingly enough, hoard armies in a system that is very close 1:1 to 40...it doesn't break the system around them at all. Like we have proof it works because it's out in the wild. We also know it works for 40k, cause people house rule it to work that way all the time. It genuinely makes the game BETTER

[@johnwycough1955]

Waaaa..... It's competitive play. I think it's funny a meta player is complaining about a meta type plan. Glad I stopped tournament plat at 6th Ed.

[@tbone11x]

As a dark angel player I hate this list so much. Its such a "not" dark angel list and its so gamey it drives me nuts. The dark angels codex is bad but at least its flavorful. This iron storm list is sweaty bullshit.