Was Azog an Uruk? | Theories of Middle-earth

[@YourOldUncleNoongah]

YES PLEASE! Id like to hear the debunking of Gollum killing Frodos parents! And I gotta say, its great to hear your voice again. havent seen a vid from you in a life-age. YT is screwed up.

[@brandonscott4808]

It's quite possible that Azog might be a Uruk given the timeline in the third age. There's also a possibility that Bolg may also be a Uruk since The Hobbit Book mentioned that he and his bodyguards were taller, stronger, and wielding deadly weapons than the rest of the orcs at the Battle of Five Armies.

[@oscarstainton]

Its a compelling theory, and ties nicely to the wider events of the Third Age. The theory I held onto was Azog and his closest kin are descendants of the original orcs created by Morgoth, justifying his physique and calculated malice. As for Azog of the movies, simply put he should have stayed dead and his role occupied by his living son, Bolg. It would have created a compelling parallel with Thorin, with both leaders of their respective peoples having an intense blood feud,

[@istari0]

My understanding is that Uruks are a type of Orc, one that Sauron made by crossing the "base" Orc species with Men to create a more formidable Orc sub-species. As Tolkien's last writings had Sauron actually breeding the first Orcs from Men, I wonder if Sauron used men of Númenorean descent to make the Uruks more formidable. This could also help explain why some Orcs seem to have significantly longer life-spans. There's also the reference to some of the Maia who fell under Morgoth's sway and took forms similar to Orcs. As Melian had a child with Thingol, I wonder if such fallen Maia could also reproduce.

[@Enerdhil]

It is confusing how breeding Orcs with Men makes the race more powerful, agile, etc., especially if Orcs come from Men If Orcs come from Elves, wouldn't breeding them with Men be a downgrade in power? I think your idea that Sauron may have bred Orcs with Numenorians makes sense because it would truly be an upgrade, whereas all other options seem to defy common sense.

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil I'm starting from Tolkien's last position as written in "Morgoth's Ring" that the original Orcs were Men corrupted by Morgoth and Sauron and not necessarily the highest men around at that time. There's also every possibility that Sauron's skills in such matters improved over the millenia.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 Tolkien caused this problem himself by changing ancient history. By changing the Orc origin to Men, he instantly turned the First Age Orcs into children compared to Elves. How could Morgoth have won the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with such Orcs? Also, did Sauron wait until the end of the Third Age to turn his Orcs into the greatest fighting machines on Arda? Or was he just too dumb to think of it until late in the Third Age?🙄

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil Orcs were always vastly inferior one-on-one; they relied on overwhelming numbers to have any success. If Morgoth hadn't had Trolls, Balrogs, and assorted other creatures (and later on Dragons) in his armies, he would have lost those battles. As far as Sauron goes, he was a busy fellow; upgrading Orcs was far from the only thing on his plate!

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 For sure, the Orcs were inferior compared to Elves, but are they the Imperial Stormtroopers of Arda?

[@zirkalda9502]

This is a very interesting theory for me because it opens up the “missing link” between standard orc and the more elite Uruk breeds. If Azog was a proto-type Uruk or even some kind of genetic stock Sauron used before setting him loose it fills that gap. And like you said, it’s one of the ideas that could actually be supported if you look at the lore in the right way, as opposed to just outright mangling it to make the theory work. Whatever the case the Defiler was a certainly “a head” above his brethren.

[@Atanalcar]

If we go down this rabbit hole, what about the Great Goblin? He was "a tremendous goblin with a huge head", and his death sparked the gathering of hosts of goblins at Gundabad to make war on the Lonely Mountain under the command of Bolg. If Azog was an Uruk, was the Great Goblin also an Uruk who commanded respect across the Mistys, including that of the son of Azog, or was he just an unusually large but otherwise ordinary orc, and it was news that he died at the hands of Thorin specifically* which sparked Bolg into action? * Even if they realised Thorin couldn't have made the killing blow, that's probably irrelevant.

[@CounciloftheRings]

He was killed by Gandalf, though. But they no doubt had a hatred to the line of Durin and knew Thorin was involved in his death

[@Atanalcar]

@@CounciloftheRings I know he was killed by Gandalf, hence the note at the end of my post saying even if those present worked out it wasn't Thorin (which, despite the confusion caused by Gandalf moments before, they surely had to have done as they aren't stupid), that detail was probably irrelevant: Thorin would be the name associated with it. And yes, the hatred was definitely there: "But they had a special grudge against Thorin’s people, because of the war which you have heard mentioned, but which does not come into this tale" I'm just wondering, if Azog was an Uruk and Bolg too by extension, was the Great Goblin also an Uruk, given his physical description (a tremendous goblin with a huge head)? And was Bolg leading the orcs of the Misty Mountains to war following his death in part because of the loss of an Uruk captain, or was it solely a chance to get vengeance when one of Durin's folk turned up again? The text suggests it's in response to the death, which lends itself to him being an Uruk as I can't imagine that level of mobilisation for an ordinary orc chieftain if Uruks are a factor, but the memory of Azanulbizar does muddy the waters somewhat.

[@carrion4543]

I would like to hear a debunk of gollum killing frodos parents

[@Enerdhil]

I have seen this theory on several Tolkien KZbinrs' comment boards. It intrigues me.🤔

[@istari0]

I'd be interested in your thoughts debunking the Gollum killed Frodo's parents theory. I always thought it was obvious; if Gollum had done this that would mean he found the Shire and then would have stayed there looking for the Ring.

[@Enerdhil]

Isn't it bizarre that someone has to debunk something that is clearly not in the lore?🙄

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil At least it's not the "why didn't they fly the Eagles to Mordor" question.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Sadly there’s a lot of people that believe in this absurd fan-theory and it keeps getting posted on X, Indtagram, Reddit etc. So a proper debunking would just represent all the points that disproves it 😁 There’s quite a lot, besides what you just mentioned. I’ll add it to my to-do list. It works well with the Dhelob video I’m working on currently ☺️

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 🦅😂🦅😆🦅🤣🦅🤪🦅😁

[@nalublackwater9729]

A debunking of Gollum being Frodo's parents would be interesting

[@Silversmith70]

I always wished they used practical effects for him. The orc that was "torturing" Gandalf was freaky looking.

[@WolfeRavenwood]

I am a simple Rohirrim, i see a Council of the Ring video, i click a like.

[@Enerdhil]

So how would it be possible for Gollum to kill Frodo's parents? To get to the Shire, he would have to exit the mountain the same way that Bilbo did. That exit would have to lead to "the path" that stretches from Ered Luin to Erebor. While hiding near the path, Gollum would have to get lucky and overhear Hobbits (Tooks?) talking about going to the Shire. Gollum would then have to be able to shadow them all the way to the bridge that crosses the Brandywine. He wouldn't be able to cross over the bridge, so he would have to sneak down to the Brandywine River, which is pretty wide and have the luck of the Precious to overhear a couple arguing on a nearby boat. It would be Drogo, facing the other way, and Primula. She would have to yell something like, "I should never have married a Baggins!!!" Upon hearing that Gollum would need to swim underwater to the boat and tip it over, causing Drogo and Primula to fall into the water and drown (or maybe he would have to pull them underwater till they drowned). Then he would drag the dead male Hobbit's body to the bank and realize it wasn't Bilbo. In shock and horror, he would let out a cry that would frighten a Nazgûl, drawing attention to himself. Next he would hightail it back to the mountains, cross them and go south toward Mordor. So he would never need to go to Dale and eat babies.😁👍 Council has to "debunk" this nonesense?🤣😆😂 A total waste of a video.🎉

[@LockeCPM4]

Uruk just means Orc. Uruk hai are the improved orcs that Sauron and Sauraman both bred in the late Third Age

[@MerryMohProductions]

Maybe share you’re thoughts on putting Black Numenoreans in Angmar, like what BFME or LOTRO did?

[@CounciloftheRings]

Great idea ☺️

[@khananissa21]

Azog was an giant Pale Orc of Gundabad

[@CounciloftheRings]

Orc yes, but he is not said to have been pale nor from Gundabad specifically.

[@anonymouslyopinionated656]

No, he was just a big strong Orc. Only way to prove otherwise is to prove that Bolg was too.

[@BeowulfCav]

WHO SAYS THAT GOLLUM MAY HAVE KILLED FRODO'S PARENTS?! That is some asspull theorycrafting right there.

[@CounciloftheRings]

Exactly! Man it's posted so many places (especially Instagram where there are so many accounts that just repost the same images over and over without knowing anything).

[@piracybringer4057]

so orcs are not coming from elves but humans ? What ?!

[@CounciloftheRings]

Yeah, but it would be to hard to include that in The Silmarillion. CT would have to change a lot for it to work. There are other such cases, like the father of Gil-galad 😁

[@BeowulfCav]

I think we can safely say to the very end JRR Tolkien was still working on his world building and some things may have never been fully worked out. I wish JRR had more time to work on Middle Earth and give us more stories. But being mortal men, we can't escape our fate in this world.

[@CounciloftheRings]

@@BeowulfCav True! It's quite sad he also got more forgetful near the end and seemed to have lost himself in his many notes and changes. I still think CT did a great job, but not without flaws (he even admits that himself).