The Truth About The Sumerian Leader Gilgamesh

This video is a follow up to the video I posted in January about Historical examples of gay marriage in ancient history. Here is a link to the original video if you wish to check it out for context
• The Truth About Gay Ma...
This video was inspired by some of the comments I've received both on KZbin and on my Twitter/X account, which you will find here / puremetatron
If you like my work and wish to support it please take a moment to check out my Patreon page
/ themetatron
For further reference please review "A History of Same-Sex Marriage" (VLR 79, 7, Symposium on Sexual Orientation and the Law, pp. 1419-1513, 1993)
Boswell, vedi pp. 1440-1441
Perspective is a fundamental functional propertie of human language. We'll see why that's relevant to today's topic, on this video.
After making this video, well I wouldn't even call it backlash but I did get a few people annoyed by the information presented. Some people asked for clarification in a professional manner. Some people went as emotional as you'd expect a 12 year old to act.
Some people asked for further clarification other people reacted ina way that makes it seem like their entire reaity is based on whether Gilgamesh and Enkidu's sexuality
I do however wish to clarify and defend the academic reading and interpretation we gave to these passages as a team, 1 because some people have completley misunderstood what I was saying, but most importantly because I think it can give you an insight on how we make these videos.
We cannot define nor consider either of these two gay, neither Gilgamesh, nor Enkidu, but the relationships between the two is described in such an ambiguously erotic way as I'll demonstrate.
The ambiguity itself is revealing since it's common in the ancient world to use that literary approach. Not everything had to be explicit. That's how text is intricately organized.
E non è che sia una novità: nel mondo antico, soprattutto tra compagni in armi, il sesso era usato per cementare i legami e anche per affermare una gerarchia interna. Si può parlare di rapporto omoerotico, non propriamente omosessuale. Ne discute molto la Ackermann in "When Heroes love"
Enkidu isn't gay, we are told he was iniciated to civilization with a sexual intercourse with a female priestess, however in period homoerotic relationships between companions in arms was a thing. We know it was a thing, there is no reason to delete that. So the real question is ok, but is this the case?
When next he comes down to drink at the wells she will be there, stripped naked; and when he sees her beckoning him he will embrace her, and then the wild beasts will reject him.
The matter of translation
When it comes to Hittitology Hoffner was a pioner and his work is always an excellent place to start from, however there are different translations, and he is now considered somewhat dated.
This is why as a team we chose to cross reference it and base our deductions on the translation made by Eskridge, shared by Boswell. You'll find it quoted in "A History of Same-Sex Marriage" (VLR 79, 7, Symposium on Sexual Orientation and the Law, pp. 1419-1513, 1993.
Allegories and play on words are key in ancient literature, but they only way to comprehend them is to understand the culture and more specificly the socio linguistic context. If you don't study the cultural and linguistic background, and you have zero knowledge of the Acadian language, you will read the English translation and you will not get the double meanings.
The full story
In the epic poem of Gilgamesh, he will be seen fighting together with his friend and warrior Enkidu.
Sure the story doesn't explicitly say that they were lovers or that they had any form of erotic encounters but that's to be expected.
So what do we base our statement on?
What's very important about this is what happens right before Gilgamesh meets Enkidu.
Gilgamesh has a dream.
in questo sogno lui vede prima una sorta di meteora una sfera che cade dal cielo e poi un'ascia che cade dal cielo e questo è un sogno che lui fa poco prima di incontrare enkidu
nel sogni gilgamesh dopo aver assistito la venuta di questi due oggetti dal cielo ci fa sesso
e qui la situazione si complica perché si entra nel campo della linguistica della giochi di parole
Through the textual function, language "creates a semiotic world of its own.
#gilgamesh #mythbusting #lgbtq

[@metatronyt]

If you like my work and wish to support it please take a moment to check out my Patreon page, thanks. www.patreon.com/themetatron

[@James35142]

Can we get more Japanese history and warfare?

[@zekeolopwi6642]

*describes gay innuendo* "Let's go deeper" 💀

[@m0-m0597]

I stole you 2 seconds to read this

[@arielquelme]

Can we have Indian history? Particularly Mughal era

[@ailediablo79]

I want to say in middle east before Islam or after Islam the love concept can get sexual without sex to indicate close bond deep love. I don't know how historical relevant this but in throughout middle east sex is secondary and highest form of love has nothing to do with sex. The highest form of love is do with worship or worship like behavior connection. Men die to eachothers without any sexual conation. Also isn't he an object not a being like a golm but a more advance type that looks human ? Like he has no sprit.

[@Tylerthephantom]

One of my favorite bits from The Epic of Gilgamesh is it basically has one of the earliest uses of "Begone thot." when he rejects Ishtar.

[@acdcljb]

I mean IS THERE anything written older (and which forms a whole story) than this epic?

[@Tylerthephantom]

@@acdcljb not that we know of as far as I know, but nothing wrong with hedging your bets.

[@eatdabutt]

My favorite part was all the gay sex that I apparently missed out on.

[@barredok]

No surviving ones that we know of ​@@acdcljb

[@kevinmorrice]

@@acdcljb how about the wolrds oldest customer complaint

[@southern-samurai]

People are always keen to apply modern day cultural and behavioural practice onto history.

[@luciferblaze5306]

I hope people don't say alan turing is gay lol

[@arielquelme]

Which people?

[@evertjan9479]

​@@luciferblaze5306Correct, Turing IS not gay...Turing WAS gay. WORDS HAVE MEANING. USE WORDS WISELY.

[@luciferblaze5306]

@@evertjan9479 sarcasm !! I love it

[@jed-henrywitkowski6470]

"There is nothing new under the sun." King Solomon.

[@LaurelinTheOther]

in anthropology, we say "cultural relativity." in anthropological linguistics, in studying historical texts, it's not much different. it would be "linguistic relativity" or "historical relativity." you can't compare things from another culture from your own perspective. likewise, you cannot compare ancient texts and cultures without looking at it from their perspective.

[@jeremyashford2145]

I'm just watching The Girl From Plainville (2022) on tv. I do not know the outcome of the story yet. (A woman is being prosecuted for manslaughter based on the evidence of her text string with a suicide.) What I have found is that what the prosecutors are doing is very wrong but not for the reason others might think. As soon as someone reads out a text in court I see something is wrong. Text is not a spoken language. It is an alternative to spoken language. Even as spoken cell phone calls became cheaper people still chose to communicate by text. To speak text is necessarily to change it. To consider it the same language as English is a big mistake. Text is not English (or the native language of the texter). Text is text. Text is its own language. When one speaks a foreign language fluently one thinks in that language. When one writes text fluently one thinks in text too. Texts abbreviate. Not just letters and words but meanings too. Ideas. Thoughts. Shortcuts. So an attempt to take a phrase written in text, read it out, and interpret it as English is a flawed process. In addition, when one embarks on a text string with another person every text is made in the context of only those involved and in the context of every text that went before. Any quote from a text string is a quote out of context. And there is no reason why a text string with person A should even be considered the same language as a text string with person B. You have different shared meanings. Back to the point, no matter what analysis you make of ancient texts (different meaning of text here and I don't want to create confusion), out of time, it can only ever be, at best, an approximation, unless you are very lucky, but even then who can judge if you got it "right". A person from thousands of years ago is no more likely to be able understand the nuance of our language than we are theirs.

[@jed-henrywitkowski6470]

Combatants putting insults on the munitions is an ancient practice, what say you?

[@magyarbondi]

Back in the day, 'anachronism' gave you an instant fail or a bad mark at a history test in schools. This included geographical names, and names of peoples (populations). You can't use names which were not even there during an era or they were called differently. Now compare this to today's so-called "historical documentaries" which have no clue about historical accuracy anymore.

[@Blisterdude123]

I think you absolutely can and should compare and contrast, a frame of reference is a keystone to understanding. To claim otherwise is honestly quite silly. What you shouldn't be doing is 'projecting' your values in trying to interpret the past. Trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

[@sussudioharvey9458]

This is why I love anthropology. It is fluid and changing as we discover more about other civilizations. Ideas I was taught 40 years ago as more is learned get turned around. For instance… named individuals that were assumed to be Male discovered to be Female.A lot of this because due to misinterpretation of ancient writings or assumptions .

[@fronkykoko]

The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest literature known to man. Although it is more mythological than straight up fiction (a modern invention in comparison). It was written down 5000 years ago although that is not the point of its origin. It was just written down at the time that writing was invented. The story itself starts out by saying and I'm paraphrasing here: "In those long ago ages" indicating that the story is set in even more ancient times. And the story was being told for even more long ages before it was recorded in cuniform.

[@embreis2257]

the epic itself is about 4,100yrs old while the story it tells us about was a few hundred years older (600-800 yrs older).

[@sylvarogre5469]

It also reminds me of later stories that begin "once upon a time ago..." or "long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away... " Etc.

[@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812]

Thats the same for all old books and legends. They themselves are older than written language. But were potentially a large motivation behind written language being invented.

[@serdownofhousebad1127]

I love how the epic of gilgamesh ended up influencing the stories of the Bible. Stuff like Noah's ark and the great flood come from this epic

[@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812]

@@serdownofhousebad1127 it didn't influence the story. They simply both experienced and later retell the same events.

[@CAP198462]

“Drinking beer makes you more civilised” - Ancient Akkadians

[@toxicmale2264]

Crack gives you conversational skills.

[@TheMasterdon]

Well I mean actual Australians believe in this too. So much so we have made it a past time and included in every celebration and holiday 😂

[@jameydunne3920]

Does this mean Homer Simpson passed out on his couch is the pinnacle moment of society?

[@sonyslyer9946]

Amen! Cheers!

[@Rurouni_Seiryu]

It's not gay if it's clay

[@Ultra_DuDu]

"It is not gay if I'm the top"

[@randellhill255]

Tell yourself whatever you wanthat stuff is gay​@@Ultra_DuDu

[@jimmysimbs8705]

I understood that refference

[@marcusmiller5443]

Cue the Dreidel Song! 😂

[@VK-sz4it]

He was just saying "no homo" before each intercourse.

[@paradisecityX0]

We never got a cinematic epic about Gilgamesh for some reason. A recurring character in Final Fantasy, an appearence in an episode of Hercules the Legendary Journeys, and an anime based on his epic poem, but no epic movie or miniseries...

[@bigjen8238]

he's a character in the Fate franchise too

[@Carpediem357]

Probably because he isn't as well know to the general public in terms of mythical characters. When the general populace think Mythical heroes: it's King Arthur, Heracles, Achilles

[@legueu]

We need one!

[@paradisecityX0]

@@Carpediem357 People know him as Nimrod from the Bible

[@Arkantos117]

I'd worry about what they'd add to the story to pad it out.

[@TyrantPope]

Gilgamesh - sleeps with every woman in Uruk. Internet - "he's gay!"

[@Arkantos117]

Clearly that was just for procreation.

[@JeffHays]

So about his mom ....

[@arielquelme]

​@@Arkantos117that means Gayism is anticreation

[@adrianbelko7683]

​@@Arkantos117 one woman is enough for procreating as many children as you can, however if you do sleep around with many of them you are clearly very much interested in them

[@Arkantos117]

@@adrianbelko7683 Enough? That's a preference. You could theoretically impregnate 1,000 women in a year but you can't get 1,000 kids out of one woman.

[@chrisbole8339]

This was the absolute best notification for a post I’ve ever seen. Thanks for being you, Metatron. You made my day.

[@metatronyt]

My pleasure and thanks for the nice comment

[@InAeternumRomaMater]

​@@metatronyt Love the video! Great academic work! Could you make one about Radu the Handsome and Mehmet the conqueror?

[@ulfhedtyrsson]

It makes sense that many old words have other context behind them. I mean, look at Gen Z and Alpha. They speak another language in English. Or another example, the hippie term "Far out." Doesn't literally indicate physical distance, but something that is no longer in context with the average normalcy.

[@michelguevara151]

the english word you are looking for is 'normality'.

[@robertharding5972]

@@TheMadManRob 'Normalcy' was a malapropism coined by Warren G. Harding, newspaper editor (you'd think he'd know better) and one of the worst U.S. presidents. Apparently butchering English was something of a hobby for ol' Warren. Of course, language changes. Somehow 'normalcy' caught on and was accepted into the lexicon. On the other hand, going 'grammar police' on a poster and dismissing their entire post over a capitalization seems... excessive.

[@paavoilves5416]

@@robertharding5972 I didn't realize first that your sentence continued after the period and was totally convinced that Warren G came up with the word "normalcy"!

[@nostalji75]

I kinda feel like people are to creatively experimental with English. So many expressions have a new, very specific and often abstract meaning. "Far out" , "down bad", "being up to", "mute swan (swans that aren't mute)" , I think the word "ostensible" is just a fancy synonym for "seemingly" and appears to have lost its original meaning of putting on a show to distract.

[@treelineresearch3387]

@@nostalji75 I get a little more connotation of deception out of "ostensible" in comparison with "seemingly". Seemingly is more "as it appears", "ostensibly" carries more "as it wants itself to appear", so I don't think that nuance has really been lost. Most of the time when I see it used, there is an implication of deception.

[@embee7434]

Its videos like this that scratch the academic itch I miss so much after leaving academia. I don't even care what you're talking about. I just love listening to your analysis and the integrity with which you approach subjects. Thank you, Metatron.

[@metatronyt]

My pleasure

[@doggy7210]

6:25 I apologize, but I have to admit that I giggled a little bit when he said "Let's go deeper". I'll see myself out of the comments section.

[@legueu]

To be fair, it's a bit funny. 😅

[@arielquelme]

​@@legueu the video title guarantee of funny comment section Especially of current culture war trend online

[@sweetiespoon5150]

Don't apologize. We all laughed with you.

[@theywouldnthavetocensormei9231]

My wife puts on this KZbin thing for the baby a lot, it's called Ms. Rachel, she just sings songs and does interactive stuff for babies and toddlers. But one of the songs is about putting your toys back where they go, and she sings "put it in, put it in, put it in!" And I always think of dirty stuff when it comes on🤣 I can't help it, my inner teenage boy will never die.

[@doggy7210]

@@theywouldnthavetocensormei9231 That is funny. Yep, I'm in my 40's, and the inner teenager never goes away. And I hope it never does. And farts are still funny too.

[@thiloreichelt4199]

The political meaning of "blue" versus "red" is not specific to the English language, it is specific to the political landscape of the USA. In most European countries, including the UK, red would naturally be considered "left". Remember the red communists? Colors for "right" would be blue or black.

[@ironrex6979]

Exactly I think this overall reflects my problem with the video cultural context matters.

[@FaceJP24]

@@ironrex6979 "this overall reflects my problem with the video cultural context matters." Isn't the whole point of this video to emphasize that exact point?

[@FaceJP24]

@thiloreichelt4199 Isn't that basically what Metatron said? He only said in the context of 2024 as a period, but since the original statement was "California is a blue state", it's already implied to be about the USA.

[@HellbirdIV]

That actually has its origins with the Republicans and Democrats switching their ideological positions over time. The Republicans were, as the name suggests, Republicans in the style of post-French Revolution European Republicans, hence the colour red and being the anti-slavery party, with the blue Democrats as Center-Right, just like the Center-Right/Conservative parties in Europe today are mostly identified with blue. So you're completely right that it is specific to the US, and it's a great example of how context-specific to a region and time period that such linguistic quirks can be.

[@BucketBoatable]

And in Russian civil war, the counter-revolutionaries were "whites"

[@johnmetzakis2910]

imagine if someone's first encounter with Gilgamesh and Enkidu was through the Final Fantasy 14 game where Gilgamesh is a giant samurai with a tone of weapons and Enkidu is a large green chicken...................

[@20th_century_specter]

This is why I I subscribe to Metatron, who enables historical accuracy to trump all bias, political narrative, and ulterior motives. If only we lived in a world in which everyone strived to be as thorough and accurate.🖖🏼

[@alexmashkin863]

Trump the Bias! 2024!

[@MagcargoMan]

"Trump all bias" Is that why he's never made a single video debunking commonly-believed lies perpetuated about Sub-Saharan Africa to this very day?

[@alexmashkin863]

@@MagcargoMan I'm out of the loop here, which lies those would be?

[@MagcargoMan]

@@alexmashkin863 I was replying to the other guy, but I don't know why you'd even need to ask when they're so obviously prevalent. Lies like: - no written languages before colonisation - no metallurgy before colonisation - no kingdoms or empires, only tribal societies - no buildings besides mud huts - no stories, folklore or mythology All of which are debunkable.

[@alexmashkin863]

@@MagcargoMan Never in my life did I hear any of those things being said seriously, and they're so obviously false that I'm not even sure it warrants any debunking. I am from Russia though, live here, mostly talk to people from here, got my education here also, maybe it's different in the US :-)

[@JoesWebPresence]

Thank you for voicing your concern at the end. The whole 'You're with us or you''re against us' stance needs called out. Cult-like absolutism has no place in reasoned discourse. It is only divisive, only dismissive. Those who can't handle something challenging their preconceptions or going against the received wisdom of their entrenched opinions or ideological principles often can't handle academic debate or even a serious discussion, with out emotional outbursts.

[@ChadKakashi]

Agreed mate.

[@JesusChrist-xb7jq]

Speaking of historical context, by today’s standards, I would be considered right leaning. But, 15-20 years ago, I would be considered left leaning. Love your channel and content. It’s one of the rare places where I feel confident that I’m getting unbiased information. I hope your mother is doing well.

[@King.Leonidas]

The National Socialists where leftists

[@m_d1905]

Me too, I'm kinda center right by today's standards. I was quit liberal when I was younger but my views have changed very little (I've moved a bit more right at least economically). Weird if you ask me.

[@theywouldnthavetocensormei9231]

Yea I've always been more liberal than most conservatives on a lot of issues, and I haven't changed a lot. But the left has gone so far left in the last 20 years, I'm further right in relation.

[@devifoxe]

No not really the overton window have move to the right yeah but left and right is the same... What you call Liberals it was alway center right The thing is in USA left was practical non existence before the 90 what you thing extrim it was the standar left for Europe

[@DemonKingBadger]

That is why I laughed at "right is becoming extreme". 10 years ago, I was moderate right, now get called alt-right and the only couple of opinion changes I have made went the liberal way.

[@MrRabiddogg]

my favorite is when a word changes meaning from when it was originally written down and someone wants to use the current definition to argue their point.

[@far-middle]

I cant imagine any misinterpretations translating 5k year old clay tablets when we cant agree on things like "woman" or "genocide" in our own language today.🤭

[@Kaspar.C0LD]

Which will be the same people that ironically whinge about how words that used to mean one thing when they were young now has a different connotation tied to it (e.g. the topical 'gay'). I'm willing to bet those very people have recently used the term "zesty" to comment on someones flamboyancy. Little did we know, lemons have been butt-fucking this entire time.

[@cici35official19]

@@far-middleI get the “woman” part, but wtf do you mean by “genocide”?

[@ZeusBrown]

I have watched your videos for years, and everything I've seen has pointed me to the conclusion that you have exceptional integrity. Therefore even if you were to say something that I have a strong reason to disagree with, I could never rationally assume that you were approaching the topic with anything less than good faith.

[@ChadKakashi]

Agreed.

[@karensimon876]

Blessed are the truth tellers. Thank you.

[@far-middle]

How would anyone know their kings sexual preference 5k years ago and how well can we really interpret anything when we can't agree on "woman" or "genocide" currently?

[@dogurasuthanatos]

"One day, alt-right; the next, left-wing..." Well, the Metatron has indeed spread his wings, yes? As always, your devotion to Truth is a welcome and appreciated aspect of your videos.

[@user-do4rk2qv4w]

The part where you mentioned Gilgamesh veiling Enkidu's dead body the same way a man of that culture would for his spouse reminded me of a video done by a man by the name of Peter Pringle where he recites the passage from the Epic of Gilgamesh describing Enkidu's funeral in the original language with English subtitles. At the end, the subtitles translate what Peter is saying to mean, "He [Gilgamesh] covered his friend, veiling him like a bride." I highly recommend it for anyone interested in the sound of ancient languages. BTW, could you please do a video on the nature between Achilles and Patroclus' relationship? I know you already mentioned them briefly in a couple of other videos, but I would like to see an entire one dedicated to the debate around their relationship in the ancient world. Edit: Sorry to set off all this back and forth, I was just hoping, as I enjoy Metatron's videos and presenting style a great deal, that maybe he could make a video on the topic. I know there is no evidence in the Iliad for any gay relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, but I was wondering if there is any potential to go deep into the debate that later authors had. I'm just a huge fan of Greek history/mythology.

[@Jacobp-li9fi]

He already debunked the gay fanfic of Greece

[@Blisterdude123]

I adore Peter Pringle's compositions, they're beautiful. Particularly those relating to the Sumerians.

[@happyslapsgiving5421]

But that's the thing... there isn't much to say. 1) There's no indication in the text that they were lovers. 2) Given the culture and practices of the time, it's a possibility. 3) Even sources from ancient Greece didn't agree on whether or not they were lovers. That's it. That's the video. You're welcome.

[@JaMeshuggah]

​@@Jacobp-li9fiGreek men loved Greek boys, cope

[@Jacobp-li9fi]

@@JaMeshuggah what kind of love?

[@the_dark_braga2190]

Since I've read the Gilgamesh story twice over the years (both the original epic, and "Gilgamesh the King", by Robert Silverberg), I didn't expect this more contextual interpretation of this story. Frankly, this cultural analysis puts a whole new angle on one of the great historical bromances.

[@meister3400]

I read this as "Did Gilgamesh say I was gay?"

[@atticstattic]

Gilgamesh was such a gossip!

[@jed-henrywitkowski6470]

literally lol.

[@the_dark_braga2190]

Gilgamesh doesn't judge.

[@vladtheinhaler8940]

Gilgamesh screwed a space rock. He was extremely progressive.

[@manuelapollo7988]

Guardo sempre tutti i tuoi video senza mai commentare, solo per imparare. Per questa volta voglio mettere la mia piccola voce per farti i complimenti per il tuo lavoro, che ritengo molto importante. Porti i tuoi contenuti con passione e con qualità accademica (se non hai un PhD te lo meriteresti). Imparo sempre un sacco di cose, continua così, sappi che per ogni commento negativo/stupido, ci sono 10 persone come me che banalmente apprezzano il tuo lavoro e non hanno sbattito a infilarsi nella lotta mediatica dei commenti senza senso (tanto so che prima o poi spari fuori un video così che vale più di mille parole). Buon lavoro!

[@metatronyt]

Grazie Manuel, apprezzo moltissimo le tue parole

[@legueu]

Contextualizing history is hard, and political extremists use that to their advantage, a lot. Thanks for your work Metatron. I really enjoyed the video.

[@autoharpmug6276]

I appreciate your attitude towards history. It is hard enough to learn more about history without messing it up with personal biases. You sir, are a true scholar and a gentleman.

[@nostalji75]

And other peoples personal biasses.^^ So often we believe some bs just, because it "feels" true or sounds plausible and fits our general narrative.

[@RayGamingChannel10]

Big fan of your work always been a fan of history and civil debate and never could get my full from normal education and channels such as this help with that respect keep feeding mine and many other peoples history hunger

[@timothy4664]

Banger video man. The red and blue analogy was excellent

[@davidecolucci6260]

Politics is not a line, is a circle, go to far to either side and you'll find the same thing, with just slightly different flavor

[@jozitro4554]

Poly-ticks

[@arielquelme]

"Two Lefts doesnt make it Right.. But Three lefts do" -Elon Musk

[@Arkantos117]

Politics isn't a circle or a line because there are more than two directions to go in.

[@jeremyashford2145]

Politics is a steam heat of tog turd.

[@kohakuaiko]

​@@Arkantos117yep, it's a sphere

[@TakNaMarginesie]

I think the main problem is to use word "lover", which is used for non-married s*xual partner. In Polish word ":kochać" - "to love" iis used in word making of "kochanek"/"kochanka" - person you love (according to s*x, if person is "he"/she"). BUT!!! Word ranges are fluid and can move from "someone you love" -> "someone you love secretly" -> "your sexual partner". An eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery time in Polish novel hero says "kocha kogoś" (he/she loves somobody) modern commentators says he/she have sexual relation to him/she. Freud would have a inspiration with it. Because you cant love someone withount s*x. A problem is to connecting "love" with "sexuality". if two man are alone they MUST develop homosexual relation.... No... they may, but they could develop brotherhood, relation with no sexual appeal. Also sisterhood.

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

"Because you cant love someone withount s*x" the reality of romantic relationships is not some fantastic otherworldly mode of human behavior, the fact we can't think past certain intellectual dishonest like this is why metatron gets attacked for saying truths...

[@exosproudmamabear558]

Modern westerns xant have friends anymore everthing circle arounds sex and sexual relationships even family lost its purpose only core family exists and even that is weakened considerably. So as long as you do not have a lover you are a pathetic loser who do not have anyone. This kind of social structure force people to find a partner as soon as possible to get out of this loser status and loneliness. It is just sad in my opinion.

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

A response to that comment which gave a translation: The Arabic words "habib, mahbub, etc" can also be general terms meant to denote love, whether familial, friendly or romantic. It can be used in some contexts in a similar fashion to "dude" or "mate" while also being used in other contexts as "darling, sweetheart, babe, etc"

[@happyslapsgiving5421]

In one country, everyone calls you _habibi_ every 5 minutes. In another, they'll think you're flirting with them if you say it. I've made that mistake.

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

@@happyslapsgiving5421 Can you give me examples of said countries?

[@arielquelme]

I concur, Habibi.. No homo ofc 🙏

[@humainhuskymaine3173]

I am the one who gave the translation, habibi may be derivative for habubu, but in Akkadian, that word is a verb, which means sexual motion (or noun, means chirp, which is definitely not relevant with the context). But yeah Arabian is fun, habibi, means darling/overall loving pet name, can be for romantic, friendship, and familiar context. In the same vein, "akhi", which means brother, are also a loving nickname from a wife to a husband, kinda like K-Pop girlies who call an idol whom they very sexually attracted to as "oppa" (older brother). My relative, a Muslimah, calls her husband "akhi" Btw, possible derivative word for "akhi" in Akkadian is "ahu", and it was also used 2 times in the Epic in relation of Gilgamesh and Enkidu's relationship, one of them is on Enkidu's adoption. That's why saying "Gilgamesh and Enkidu must be either brother or lover, there's no in between" is absolutely incorrect in regard of their culture. More of less "either friend or lover". It can be both. In this case, it's both

[@newmobils8294]

​​@@happyslapsgiving5421 As arab from my experience at least (that's not a credible source neither your because it is completely anecdotal) but I think all of Arab countries know that usually saying Habibi is for friendly meaning not romantic or sexual (in a male to male context) but sometimes some Arabs due to lack of encountering this word in this meaning they may think that you're gay or due to other reasons like you are foreigner who hold certain beliefs that may make them instantly think you are gay

[@niakalu]

lets start calling it Gaygamesh

[@user-gw1dr7rt9b]

😂

[@Aidames]

Thanks for the video, Metatron! I think putting up the actual text and the translation you are working off of would've been helpful.

[@christschess7069]

I love your deep dives into historical sources and the specific historical context. They're my favourite videos on the channel, no matter the specififc topic. Thank you again for a great video!

[@Gabby-bot]

Thanks Yehovel. Love and Greetings from Norway. Again a great video.

[@artkoenig9434]

Well crafted, sir! Quite to the point. Thank you!

[@arthurc.a.7282]

Very interesting. Always love your videos.

[@avericen8419]

Good to hear that for sure, wishing you another great video like this.

[@LS-qq4zc]

Brilliantly argued. Well done. Love the channel.

[@m.f.l.schriefer]

Honestly, great video! I usually only comment here when I want to voice some criticisms, while after watching videos that I think are actually good or at least not inaccurate, I typically only leave a like or share them somewhere without commenting, which is why one could get the false impression that I'm only here to criticize. But I think it deserves to be said that your more recent videos on "controversial" topics like these seem to have gotten a lot better in terms of both methodology and avoiding personal bias compared to some of your earlier ones. Maybe it's just experience on your part, or maybe because of the help of your team, but either way, I hope this development continues. The only thing I would have liked to see in this particular video would have been the original Akkadian or Sumerian words/sentences or at least the quotations from which part of the text(s) they are from, which is something you tend to do when analyzing Latin or Greek texts, but was kind of missing here. Also, to give some additional cultural context for other commenters: Terms like "brother" or "sister" were also used as terms of endearment between (by modern standards) heterosexual non-related lovers in ancient Mesopotamia, for example in Sumerian balbale-hymns such as Dumuzid-Inana-B (ETCSL 4.08.02) or Inana H (ETCSL 4.07.8). So it would not be unusual for Gilgamesh and Enkidu to use those terms for each other while also being lovers as well as adoptive brothers. (By the way, when heterosexual couples in ancient Mesopotamia got married, sometimes one of the partners could get adopted by their new parents-in-law to further strengthen their familial bond, especially if the partner in question didn't have any living biological parents of their own, as it was the case with Enkidu. That doesn't necessarily mean Gilgamesh and Enkidu were married, but Enkidu's adoption by Ninsun certainly wouldn't be in any kind of conflict with him and Gilgamesh being in a romantic relationship.)

[@elizabethdavis1696]

Please consider doing a video on the mythology, superstitions, and stereotypes of redheads!

[@arielquelme]

"..i heard my grandma said that Cleopatra were black & not redheaded" -woke professor

[@thorgeist]

Lol, in medieval times they thought we were; werewolves. I have to say, I take that as term of endearment myself.

[@sussudioharvey9458]

As an Old Ginger myself doing studies in Rural areas of the Mediterranean decades ago … best not ask. Even 45 years ago I got chased out of places and ostracized due to my hair color.

[@fibanocci314]

You have sometimes confronted my beliefs, Metatron, and I appreciate it. It's why I subscribed. I think it's why most of your long-term viewers are here.

[@lisaburpo4891]

Love your content. You always engage my mind. I have even learned a lot from your videos. Thank you very much

[@thrashingputz5163]

Great video Metatron, It's refreshing to see that you're taking this approach to be as logical and unbiased as possible seriously. Very few do this, and when they do they always have the same experience of being called simultaneously "far-right" or "far-left", it's revealing.

[@simonl.6338]

Yeah, our current culture of discourse is at the same time very superficial AND very extreme and sensationalistic. Real depth, real understanding of context and interlinked layers and systems, real differentiated ideas and ambigousness is highly dubious to these people. Because it puts their loved labels and identity-affirming opinions into question and because some people simply are incapable of really understanding complexity and uncertainty. It scares them.

[@robertharding5972]

Interestingly, I did get homoerotic context from my reading of Gilgamesh. I wish I could remember the translation. It's been decades - the late 1970s or early 1980s - since I read it. As a youth I chose to write it off to an intense relationship between two hot-blooded, larger-than-life heroes who fought back-to-back against the nastiest monsters the age could throw at them. Weirdly, or perhaps not, my life experiences reinforced that view. I served a career in the military. I know the fierce, protective nature combat vets develop for their comrades. It's beyond storge, eros or familia. It veers into agape when your buddy is in danger. It's intense to the point of 'am I a moron?' after the fight is over. It's how real-life heroes (posthumous or otherwise) are made. This COULD be an alternative explanation for the text. Could, but... perhaps not. As Metatron suggests, 'gay' or 'straight' or even 'bi' isn't the point here. Clearly Enkidu has sex with the priestess, making him a civilized human. Afterwards, Gilgamesh tries to violate a group of brides. These episodes both indicate at least some opposite-sex attraction, though with Gilgamesh it could be about exerting power, dominance or some conflict with the brides or their husbands. In any case, Gilgamesh is clearly the aggressor, most likely in violation of both sacred and secular law (which were mingled in Mesopotamian society). The two fight to a draw, the brides escape further injury/defilement, Gilgamesh and Enkidu kiss, make up and go off to do heroic deeds together. We do not know the significance of the kiss in ancient Uruk. It could be a greeting like the early Christian 'kiss of peace' (which got Christians in trouble with the Romans). It could also be a romantic slap-slap-kiss scenario. Given what we believe about Mesopotamian society the latter is quite possible. The rest of the story is about the powerful, personal and likely physical relationship between the two heroes. As Metatron stated in both videos, Mesopotamian religious practices had sexual components, both hetero- and homo-. Gilgamesh was not just a heroic epic; it was a religious text in a society that embraced eroticism. Religion was not divorced from rationality. It was a way of interpreting a world which Mesopotamians did not fully understand, and a way to interact with the supernatural to avoid, placate or bribe inscrutable deities. It's significant that in 'Gilgamesh' the titular hero bluntly rejects Ishtar's seduction precisely because the goddess of love and war is a dangerous, treacherous, likely jealous lover. Of course, rejecting a goddess outright had consequences as well. It is, as they say, a cautionary tale which doesn't end well for Enkidu (dead) or Gilgamesh (grief-stricken). Keep in mind most religious texts are full of allegory, symbolism and apocrypha in order to emphasize points about mankind's relationships with the universe and with people. Being instructive is usually more important than being a factual record of events. In the case of 'Gilgamesh' it's also a heroic epic - almost guaranteed to contain exaggeration and hyperbole in the same vein as the Iliad/Odyssey, The Aeneid, Norse Eddas, Heike Monogatari or tales of Raven from North America. It's likely that a homoerotic relationship existed between Gilgamesh and Enkidu. The translation I read suggested it. It seems in character with what we currently believe about Sumerian religion and culture. Even given that translations are a product of their authors and times, that archaeology marches relentlessly on, and that our understanding could be radically different with new discoveries, it's the best interpretation we have available today. That's all we can rationally work with. Our interpretation of ancient texts changes over time. As Metatron stated, Hoffner is now seen as somewhat dated; in twenty years Eskridge will also likely be dated. Each writer (and reader) sees literature, archaeology, history and news through their own lens, shaped by their experience, information available, personal interests and personal belief. I, too, am biased. Homoeroticism is not necessary for the epic to work (though it seems that was the author's intent). I lean toward a fierce battle-buddy interpretation of the Enkidu-Gilgamesh relationship because that's my experience. I lean away from the homoerotic because it seems titillating and unnecessary (to me, though it's probably just as the scribes of Uruk intended). My brain can plausibly posit a hyperbolic text drawing parallels to eros for two super-intense heroes fighting and partying hard and putting 'bros before hoes'. As a reader of literature, this is how I enjoy the epic without getting mired in ancillary subjects. A reader has every right to make such headcanon interpretations. We all do it all the time with every scrap of media we consume; to claim otherwise is to be unrealistic. From an academic perspective my view is pure hokum. Honest academics do not have that freedom. As Metatron states in several videos, academics need to separate analysis from their bias to the greatest extent possible to produce impartial interpretation of the data at hand. That can only be accomplished by examining one's own bias and consciously accounting for it in their work. My two (more like fifty, that's a wall of text) cents.

[@Emarella]

Just wanted to say your comment was a fascinating read! Thanks for sharing your expertise, experience, and thoughts.

[@anastasiya256]

Perhaps, their sexual relationship was not that of having (anal) sex *with* each-other, but having sex next to each-other. Nowadays, some people would even consider that gay… but it definitely doesn’t have to be.

[@josielewis3258]

I love your ending statement! This is one of the reasons I love your great channel!

[@metatronyt]

Thank you I appreciate

[@Sam-df9rs]

"Star-Sissy" is the correct interpretation of the Akkadian meaning of sphere.😂

[@SombreroPharoah]

Femboys twinkling in the night sky.

[@BigBex]

Dude, "Twink" 😂

[@dniexodus2795]

LOVE YOUR WORK !!!! i wonder if you will ever do an episode on sumerian mis translation , spcifically Z Sitizichen . I believe ur lingustic expertieze is in european and proto european. But not sure what ur experience is in Sumer akkad, Assyrian...and so on. But i cant get enough of ur lingustic interpretations knocking all the pseudo science and history oppions back to the rightfull place.

[@heygoober1653]

You got style rocking that hoody, Meta. Cheers

[@edstar83]

He's Indo European. Descendant of the Magi from Atlantis.

[@shallot4013]

As someone who loves your channel, and has spent the last 5 years of my life obsessed with this stuff I'm really happy to see my viewpoint spoken for almost verbatim. Thank you.

[@user-kl5zd2oe3e]

Gilgamesh sent a woman to get Enkidu laid just so they could be homies. They're just bros!

[@amalsp8955]

Bruh

[@vane909090]

Can't wait to find out which historical figure was gay next. Staying tuned.

[@thenight-frog2543]

Loved the video. The middle way is dying out without people who analyse data without obvious bias.

[@LudwigSpiegel]

Great explanation as always! Very educational.

[@gaoth88]

First of all, love doesn't mean romance. I love a male friend dearly, but we have no romantic or sexual attraction. Just two guys loving eachother for who we are.

[@ThyCorylus]

I appreciate your point but, mate, that last line is pretty.. you know.

[@gaoth88]

@@ThyCorylus (: yep

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

And?; romance can still exist without intercourse tf...

[@user-ho9ui6wc2d]

@@IbnRushd-mv3fpno it’s not. It’s sexual

[@abyssal113]

Honestly, if you wanted to use terms like "boyfriend" with anyone from before the late industrial era, you'd have to explain what modern relationships are like in the first place, because the concept is fairly new to begin with and might not apply at all to any relationship those people might have seen. Also, even today the most common words we use to refer to homosexuals in english aren't to be interpreted literally. Like, lesbians aren't all native to Lesbos and gays aren't always people we claim to be happy in particular.

[@siarametanal4317]

Awesome video! Love your approach

[@RivetHead999]

On the topic of language, culture, and comprehension, When I was in the army, I had a friend who was Russian (legally immigrated and got full citizenship via the US army) and he learned English by watching “Friends”. And would watch it often when we were deployed in Iraq during downtime. He taught me some Russian while I helped him with some more complex parts of English, and one day I was hanging out with him and he was war king and episode of friends with Brice Willis and there was a scene where Ross said something like “we were both married” and the joke was that Brice Willis misunderstood the comment and thought he meant they were married to each other, and my friend pointed out that in Russian, that joke wouldn’t work and they would have to have changed it entirely, because in Russian, there would be no ambiguity between “we were married” meaning they were at one point married but not to each other vs being married to each other, that saying so wouldn’t make sense because in Russian there would’ve been a clear distinction and no confusion. This is a common issue when translating things (really common in the old subbed vs dubbed debate in anime, where one is truer than the other), whereas communication is split into many parts, language, words, context, culture, and more. This is why Jews learn Hebrew, and Muslims believe the “correct Quran” is only in Arabic, and that any translation is not accurate, because in translation, passages can lose context. Which was a huge issue in Afghanistan, where the main languages were Farsi, Dari, Urdu and Pashtun. (As well as non Arab African nations) It was easy for the Taliban (or boko haram and other groups) to teach followers to simply be able to recite passages, and they could tell followers “what those passages mean” and be able to exploit their faith for political gain. This is what I respect about Metatron, is his respect and understanding of this, and takes into account not just literal translation, but cultural context as well as periodic context as well and many other relevant factors.

[@qtnshy]

As someone who's not a native English speaker and grew up watching TV shows in the Spanish dub I can't agree more. Once I learnt English I realised how many jokes, puns, etc are lost during the translation

[@Tallorian]

Thanks for the story. (a Russian here, and actually in our language you can also misenterpret "we were married" as one to another, so perhaps in the show they said something slightly different) Anyway, I totally agree with points you made, especially with the anime example - as someone who always watches with subs, over the years I've learned a lot of words and important cultural and linguistical connotations of their usage, which totally get lost when translated to English. As a result, I often notice subtle things placed by the authors through listening, even though they don't get reflected in the subs. So in the end, exposure to the language is the only sure way to understand all kinds of stuff which comes with idioms, double meanings (and thus double entendres) and wordplay. Ofc it's much harder to do with ancient languages, but it doesn't change the fact that people, who make judgments or even try to argue with scholars by using English translations, come from the point of ignorance.

[@anastasiya256]

Hi, I’m also Russian and I also believe that subs are superior in anime 😂 dubs often sound cringy, even… whereas when the “cringy” sayings are in the original Japanese, it’s normal because you know it’s their culture and it’s how they express their emotions in their language.

[@rainmaker9300]

From the stories I just always got the vibe that Gilgamesh and Enkidu are basically blood brothers. No matter what the circumstance, each one will have their mate's back if needed etc.

[@waltermh111]

And putting things in thy context of history, that would most likely be the case, but it's hard for people not to put thing in the context of modern time, even Megatron. It's like how in modern times Is two guys can't just be friends. I'm sure you've heard plenty of times when guys are really close and people will use the label, This thing i'm forgetting the label but There's a word because it just does not seem like in modern times people can accept that guys can be buddies. The last time i've heard bros before hose , without thinking their gay is from the 90s. And a lot of this has caused an understandable backlash. I'm sure there are people who are really annoyed by trying to call everybody in history.Gay because it has an effect on the way.People look at things now and it justifies this modern culture which destroys the idea of platonic friendships. Metatron really doesn't help by being ignorant about the culture just so you can act like he's above it all. People who think they are interested really are some of the most ignorant people. And I like the sky, but you just get sick of them being so blind to what's happening just so they can virtue signal how special they are. We've known that the people with this agenda to gayify everything have been trying to turn almost every historical figure into an LGBT figure. So when we hear yet another figure being referred to that way, it's necessary to be defensive.

[@ironrex6979]

It’s probably that. Since it matches with the cultures values and academic writing. No modern politics involved of course.

[@ThyCorylus]

That could be your own preference manifesting itself in your interpretation. Because you enjoy the Epic of Gilhamesh, The idea of Gilgamesh being outside of our cultural ideas of sexual norms is uncomfortable. Sumerian culture bears no resemblance in constitution to our modern western outlook.

[@waltermh111]

@@ThyCorylus you just explained why the original poster is correct and it's more of a brotherhood than this gay thing that everybody tries to turn make friendship into. It is this modern interpretation of male friendship that thinks men can't be best friends without being homoerotic.

[@markwynne725]

I would have been inclined to agree with this interpretation, but for the Akkadian semiology discussed directly by Metatron in this video.

[@DemetriosKongas]

In the first paragraph of chapter 1 of the epic of Gilgamesh, it says the the lust of Gilgamesh left no son (even children) with his father, no daughter with her father and no wife with her husband!!! He had sex with them all!!! As an Asian despot he had power over all his subjects and this is the interesting element.

[@kangaroo4024]

unparalleled integrity and honesty. Keep doing what you do, Metatron

[@caspianbchalphy]

Honestly this makes a lot more sense. It seems the translations I read didn’t really mention much in terms of homoerotic stuff and any of that that would be there would’ve been stuff that you could interpret in another way. Add to that the linguistic part being necessary to understand context and yes I now see what you said and agree with you. I admit I would’ve preferred a strong brotherly connection more than what is there (I think it adds something) but that’s just me.

[@lauterunvollkommenheit4344]

Michael Schmidt, in his book "The Life of a Poem", says the text ("as we currently have it") supports both the homoerotic and the brotherly interpretations of Gilgamesh and Enkidu's relationship.

[@aithjawcraig9876]

It's somewhat impossible to determine the actual sexual proclivities of ancient historical figures, isn't it? I can't imagine there's a whole lot of primary documentation on anyone when it comes to this.

[@attilamarics3374]

Political opposition also like to call rulers gay, to weaken them. Its pretty common in ancient times. You would also need contemporary sources, Metatron even in the Alexander the Great video, uses sources that in some cases from 300 years later.

[@ironrex6979]

We can use historical and cultural context at the time to have a better idea, however yes the truth is we don’t really know. The evidence I’ve read and gathered he wasn’t. The dream is the only thing I agreed with the video but the dream has a lot of connotations.

[@pattylevasseur4041]

thank you for all that u do metatron its so nice to see someone ride the center of the wave without tipping the boat.... its all A CHOICE as to what view/side u take.... i am open minded and love seeing ALL SIDES even if it didnt make sense... i just walk away...

[@darthvaper6745]

Time for your Shogun series reaction ❤

[@walterreeves3679]

Excellent work!

[@metatronyt]

Thank you sir

[@UnderratedBurnyBadger]

I find it interesting how older cultures had so many single-word things to describe things we need several words to describe. A single word describing a young, feminine male with curly hair. That's wild to me. XD Thanks for the analysis, Metatron. It was really interesting. I guess I'll once again request a video on Joan of Arc if you ever decide you want to. I would love to hear how much was legend and how much was actually documented. :)

[@lightningpenguin8937]

*looks at the word, Twink.* Be blessing or curse, it seems to be a gift of humanity.

[@BucketBoatable]

this isn't just ancient language thing. There are words in my native language that needs several words in english, also in reverse.

[@istvansipos9940]

troll : A person picking silly, verbal fights for fun and to annoy other people while being ignorant or pretending ignorance. the 1 word solutions are there in our culture, too.

[@MW_Asura]

The vast majority if not everything was actually documented regarding Jeanne d'Arc, from the transcripts of her various trials to records and accounts from eye witnesses and people who met (both friend and foe) and were friends with her

[@UnderratedBurnyBadger]

@@istvansipos9940 Good point. Guess it's just not something you think about when it's words you hear all the time. XD

[@exousia8178]

Right in the middle of your explanation of Gilgamesh's dream before meeting Enkidu, I was hit with a KZbin ad about beef sticks. Wow lol. Nice timing KZbin. 🤣

[@mcsroom8930]

great video as always!!!

[@marcusmiller5443]

😂 I don't know why people want to make assertions about people that can't be known, now. So many humans are entirely silly...so, here I am, being as silly as I get, listening to the nonsense. Metatron, you're probably one of the best qualified to address such things. Can't wait to see this! ❤

[@juanitalouw3958]

Thank you for finding all the facts and presenting them in such a balanced way - your channel is very interesting in informative.

[@Jacobp-li9fi]

Love you Metatron using modern sources for ancient times is still risky but you make a decent point

[@silver057]

I really like your videos and how you analyze things non-politically. The only thing that left a bit of a bitter taste (really not much) was the part with the axe and the sphere. You said that the akkadian words for sphere and young men + the words for ax and young prostitute were nearly the same in pronunciation. However, you didn't show how those words were pronounced. I'm just saying this because showing something like that would prove your point even further.

[@Tranzisto]

I mean, the arguments sound solid, but then again there are scholarly types who disagree with that from various standpoints. From what I can find on "axe" vs "male prostitute" words it does seem like a pun, which makes sense why it was put into the text, but then one could say that it's a reconstructed language and we might read too much into it. Add to this all the double entendre and whatever other linguistic context stuff that might be at play, and tge conclusuon is much less clear. And cultural conventions are another can of worms altogether - arab men to this day walk together holding hands and kiss each other goodbye, and these are the same people who literally execute people for the same-sex relationships.

[@angel7661]

Not to mention some scholars interpret the dream as more of Gilgamesh seeing Enkidu birth by cultural norms of the time. As sumerian birth incantations would baby girls a spindle and hair clasp as symbol of them growing to be women and baby boys would be given weapons mostly axes to baby boys as symbol of manhood and for them to grow to be strong.

[@Crimson-katanas]

One of the best History buffs on KZbin. Absolutely love your boundless knowledge of Japanese history. This video is a great example of why you're enjoyable to watch. Modern politics is a disaster.

[@user-rh4wd3bh4p]

If I ever ran my own country I would definitely ask my head librarian to be you Mr Metatron. You seem very devoted to history, culture and education.

[@fronkykoko]

So Gilgamesh was a Chad, then has a bromance with Enkidu. He didn't reject Ishtar because he was now gay. He was critical of what had happened to her past lovers. Aside from her husband Tammuz sent to the underworld for not mourning her, I'm not aware of any others. She punished (gasp) a dude who raped her while she was sleeping and the entire village for hiding him. Once she was said to have taken over 60 lovers and not been satisfied is this to be taken literally though? Ishtar was also left standing at the alter by the Babylonian king Izdubar who preferred to be with comely girl rather than a goddess. And, interestingly in the early tale of Inanna (aka Ishtar) and the Huluppu tree the goddess is helped by Gilgamesh who rids the tree of the serpent, Lilith and the Anzu bird. He later makes a bed and couch for her from its wood. Aside from the language barrier, these myths contain much symbolism that works on multiple levels: historical, psychological, astral and spiritual. So it is best not to take everything literally...

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Ishtar had a lot of evil deeds: -She was OK with the deluge .Killing all animals and humans. -Threatened to break the Gates of Hell and release the dead to "eat and outnumber the living". -Send the bull of heaven against Gilgamesh destroying part of Uruk (her own city) and killing thousands. -Cursing not only the original Dumuzi (from Bad-Thibira) to the underworld but also the 2nd Dumuzi (the predecessor of Gilgamesh): he was transformed into a bird with broken wing.

[@user-ho9ui6wc2d]

He’s gay. Cope about it

[@verdadero5290]

This is all well and good, but isn't the epic of Gilgamesh supposed to be symbolic? Surely, romance of 2 men in an ancient text like this has to have a correlation to some sort of esoteric meaning to these people.

[@deb9711]

Thankyou Metatron, I am here for the facts and thats what you deliver always appreciate it. ❤

[@jensathmer7106]

i really love how you will not let the trolls get to you and stay on a relatable and sientific approach, no matter the name calling. in my experience the people who are the loudest are the same people who read the least amount of sources or actual sience,. facts dont care about your feelings no matter how much you want them to be true. keep it up! lomg time subsciber....

[@HangrySaturn]

Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh, let down your hair!

[@snoox27]

Waiting on the shogun breakdown.

[@arielquelme]

"...we should have black portuguese missionary meeting latina samurai..." -some smartass activist

[@Primeyzee]

Man it would be so cool to do a Q&A your team.

[@kariannecrysler640]

I find it very odd that people are effected by what other people do sexually. If you don’t share the bed or have an understanding of consensual, respectful relationship with someone….. Why does it matter? What business is it of yours? How do you justify judgement of something so intimate & personal that you have no part of & it has no part of your life? I find it creepy & stalker like. I do not sit and imagine the sexual activity of others then make authoritative judgments on my assumed understanding of something I am not involved in! This is called respect. To deserve it, you have to give it. Thank you Metatron for bringing nothing but the fact’s & providing the best possible understanding of subjects so many people have NO good idea about discussing without biases.

[@morgangallowglass8668]

The "rage" expressed by the haters reminds me so much of how some mid-century Germans would attempt to nail "Aryan" onto every hero in history and mythology.

[@arielquelme]

Did u know "Aryan" actually belongs to Current day Iran & North Indian peoples? Aka Indo-Aryan peoples

[@hugovandyk9918]

I'm reading a book on the mythology of India at the moment. It mentions Aryans a fair bit in context to cultural groups who invaded India from the Eurasian stepps, It's odd seeing the word used in a context separate from nazi use of the term.

[@morgangallowglass8668]

Indeed!@@arielquelme

[@morgangallowglass8668]

I know that feeling, much like defending the swastika found on things from cultures other than mid-century Germans. @@hugovandyk9918

[@arielquelme]

​@@hugovandyk9918read about Friedrich Nietzsche... Then read about how Nietzsche idolize Zoroaster, an indo-Iranian/Aryan religious figure Then u will get the idea where Hitler got this Aryan masterrace idea things

[@Choodcel]

Why would the story talk about how much the main male characters have sex with women and are attracted to women all the time, but leave the gay part as subtext?

[@humainhuskymaine3173]

Sophus Helle ponders the same, and conclude that their relationship is ambiguous, no less, no more. Regarding abundance focus on sex with woman and little focus on sex between man, I, just me personally, suspect that's kinda ancient sexism playing. In ancient time, whether a man and a woman have sex is the most important part, sometimes the ONLY important part. In same-sex relationship though, Gilgamesh and Enkidu's strength and trust in their relationship are perhaps the most important one rather than whether they entered each other or just smooch each other everytime they met.

[@truth8756]

As always a balanced and truly objective analysis thank you

[@shorkmal]

I'm so happy that I can have favourite history channel that is respectfull to others, with the team that try to learn the truth, not "discover" what we want the past to be

[@cp1cupcake]

I really got tired of people putting modern tribalism as a marker for people's "morality" a really long time ago, even before I really was into anything resembling the cultural sphere. Especially when it is used to try and justify things which said people do which are completely terrible. It is one of the laziest things I have done and just begs for stuff to be overly simplified for political goals.

[@ailediablo79]

I want to say in middle east before Islam or after Islam the love concept can get sexual without sex to indicate close bond deep love. I don't know how historical relevant this but in throughout middle east sex is secondary and highest form of love has nothing to do with sex. The highest form of love is do with worship or worship like behavior connection. Men die to eachothers without any sexual conation. Also isn't he an object not a being like a golm but a more advance type that looks human ? Like he has no sprit.

[@far-middle]

We cant even agree on current definitions in the same language so I wouldnt put too much weight on anything hundreds or thousands of years old thats been "translated" numerous times.

[@dhughes6357]

I find your videos very informative and I don't sense any political leanings. In fact, I'd say you almost go to extremes to avoid it. Thanks for your diligence and commitment to non-biased historical accuracy.

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

I appreciate what you say about the "middle line", but it is not in the middle of anything. It disregards bias. It does not find its way down the middle of all the bias. If it did that, then the bias would be controlling the conclusion by moving its center and thereby steering the research, and then that would just be another conformity to a bias. "Middle way", in American English, refers to pandering to both sides in order to try to please as many people as possible without offending anyone; it is mutually exclusive with disregarding bias.

[@Knoloaify]

I had read the Epic of Gilgamesh and thought "WTF is he one about?" when you mentioned the homo-erotic relationship between the two, so the context about the writing and metaphors is very much welcome!

[@lightningpenguin8937]

I probably read a different version. Basically I interpreted as the most gay you can get without being gay. Weird how different a translation can be.

[@kevinrwhooley9439]

The relationship between the warrior Cú Chulainn and his foster-brother and best friend Ferdiad in the epic Irish legend Táin Bó Cúailgne (Cattle-Raid of Cooley) has often been compared by academics to that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu & Achilles and Patroclus, not least because the death of the latter absolutely devastates the former, and before Cú Chulainn is forced to kill Ferdiad, he says "We were heart companions, we were comrades in gatherings; we shared the one bed where we used to sleep sound sleep." It would be fascinating to see an analysis on whether or not there is strong evidence that they were lovers or just close friends.

[@ironrex6979]

They were close friends not lovers you have to also analyze the way of their culture.

[@kevinrwhooley9439]

@@ironrex6979 Ireland was one of the few places in medieval Europe where being gay was at the very least tolerated. One of the set reasons a woman could divorce her husband was if he was sleeping with men instead of her. The issue with the man doing this, according to the law texts, was that the husband was cheating on his wife and ignoring her, not that him sleeping with the same-sex was seen as inherently wrong in this society. And not too long ago they discovered a medieval manuscript which records a story in which a woman goes to a king to discuss her being pregnant despite not sleeping with a man for a very long time. The king asks if she had slept with any women, and the woman said she recently slept with her maid, and the king concludes that the maid must have been pregnant, and had passed the pregnancy onto her when they slepted together, somehow.

[@ironrex6979]

@@kevinrwhooley9439 Thank you for sharing this info. I didn’t know. I’ll keep looking into it. Specially that manuscript because it’s hilarious.

[@molotulo8808]

Metatron should do a video on the historical importance of the modern figure of Joseph Christopher! A great man in history.

[@ShayGamerD3]

There are three separate groups of textual sources as for Gilgamesh, the Standard Babylonian Epic (you quoted), Old Babylonian Epic, and Sumerian stories about Gilgamesh. In general, allusions to homosexual encounters are more clear in the oldest tradition, that is Sumerian. For example, in the scene where Gilgamesh plays with young men in a game of the "ball" and "stick" in the story "Gilgamesh and the Netherworld" (or Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Netherworld) , there is this line (154): e-ne erin₂ dumu nu-mu-un-kuš su-a-ka i-ib₂-u₅-a "he was mounting on the group of the sons of the widow," where u₅ is the verb also used for animal copulation. There is a seminal paper on the topic by Jerrold Cooper, "Buddies in Babylonia--Gilgamesh, Enkidu and Mesopotamian Homosexuality" (In: Riches Hidden in Secret Places-Ancient Near Eastern Studies in Memory of Thorkild Jacobsen, Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns 2002: 73-85). That's said, there is a discussion in the secondary literature about terms referring to "male prostitutes" or supposed individuals of liminal gender (neither a man or a woman) in the Mesopotamian literature, and not everybody agrees with that interpretation. E.g., the term for a female prostitute, kar.kid (or ḫarimtu in Akkadian) is no longer translated that way, since it is widely considered now as a term for "an independent woman," where prostitutes were also included in that category, but not all independent women were prostitutes. Famous Shamhat, who slept with Enkidu for seven days and seven days in the epic, is described in the text as ḫarimtu.

[@tomhalla426]

Applying current social labels to other cultures, especially ancient cultures, gets futile. Now, there is a tendency to apply a dichotomy to sexual preferences and behavior. There is a strong default value that discounts anyone being bi, or acting bi in certain situations.