Watchtower DEFENDS the Two Witness Rule

[@TarquinMelnyk]

"If you're not careful you may start thinking..."

[@johnricardo5935]

How do you mean?

[@alsantiago8699]

I caught that too! Be careful or you may end up using your brain 😱

[@jazalessandro3094]

Be more carefool,if you do not!

[@joshuaacosta5671]

My stomach turned. I’m a home schooled teenager and I have to wait until I am older to leave. But each day gets harder because they simply have no desire to change when the resulting damage is right in their faces.

[@iluminet]

No, you DON'T. That's a lie they tell you. I left when I was 15, and I was an unbaptized publisher, 3rd generation JW in my family. It will be hard... and you may be forced to still go to meetings, etc... but they absolutely cannot force you to be a part of their organization if you do not want to be a member, at ANY age.

[@deadpilled2942]

@@iluminet what's the difference between your baptism, and my protestant baptism at birth?

[@iluminet]

@@deadpilled2942 Huh?

[@juliaroberts4208]

I think what that person is saying is, is there a difference between how jw’s get baptized (or how their baptism works for them) between how those of Protestant beliefs, like (baptist, catholic, Penecostal, etc.) get baptized? I have the same question?

[@lynncarter4964]

THe arrogance and stubborn pride is unprecedented. They've changed lots of things over the decades, how can they say so arrogantly that this will never change? It almost seems like they are angry, and having a childish tantrum.

[@cwoodswalker4646]

I've faded away over the past 18 months - still have family in this cult that I don't want to lose, but after seeing this it makes me even more angry at the GB and the "organization". This is truly an evil cult that believes it is outside of worldly law. Their arrogance, deception, lack of love, and intolerance will cause the tower to fall - and it can't fall soon enough!!

[@garryiglesias4074]

+Bryan Zoink - Today there's no excuse... But in the 70's and earlier, I can understand: lot less information, "doomsday" news triggered one after the others, etc. etc. Sadly, the news in the world can help to support the "last days theory"... And 40 years ago, it was more true. Now with internet and a lot of things it's easier to have some knowledge... But... That's true for English speaking countries... For example, there's barely nothing for French JW, and they don't understand English (like most french people). They don't have any idea of the Australian Royal Commission, they can't trust any translation, etc... So it's not so easy, also people sometimes are in a "weak" window, and they're grabbed while being sensible to some arguments (a dead family member, etc.). And also, as for the doomsday, it's not because you are outside WT that the "world is cool"... It's quite the opposite, the proof ? WT IS in the world, so it's as bad as the world (speaking for a "inmate"). Anyway. Lacking of tolerance towards believers doesn't help them. It can pump your own vanity, that's all.

[@cwoodswalker4646]

Not born in - to make a long story short I was "recruited" at a time when I had gone through a lot of upheaval in my life, I was desperate to find meaning in my life and some sort of "belonging". One thing that I learned early on was that JWs prey upon those that are desperate. They lie, deceive and manipulate in order to make you dependent on the "organization". Not until I started internally questioning doctrine, read works by Robert J Lifton, Steve Hassan and Ray Franz, and doing my own research (thank you internet) on this cult did I wake up. I consider myself to be an intelligent and educated person, and still can't believe that I fell for this lie. Now finding my way out with the least amount of damage is my challenge. I've not been to a meeting of any sort for 18 months now and will NEVER return to a kingdom hall.

[@marvincderuyscher9676]

C Woodswalker your story is very similar to mine. Thanks for sharing.

[@cbooth151]

+C Woodswalker "This is truly an evil cult that believes it is outside of worldly law." Do you know what a cult is? The dictionary defines "cult" as "a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies." So, with a definition like that, any religious group can be considered a cult, even the group that you are associated with. You say JWs believe they are "outside of worldly law." Really? How's that? And another thing, what about being outside of Bible law? For instance, does Bible law support such things as: 1. homosexuality? 2. smoking? 3. going to war? 4. evolution? 5. abortion? 6. civil disobedience? So, do you believe that religious groups that violate such Bible law are evil cults?

[@thrivingexjw2061]

C Woodswalker - I hope you have a smooth journey out. I faded 25 years ago & thought I was flying under the radar but 12 years ago my JW family (4 generations) found out I started attending a nondenominational church & shunning started big time.. they didn’t even come to my husbands funeral or send a card! The consequences of leaving can be brutal ! So glad you woke up 👏

[@jordanhalkier81]

My mum was watching the broadcast channel last night and I was so annoyed at the fact that they didn’t mention anything about the two witness rule when it comes to child sexual abuse. I don’t understand that when it comes to rape, you don’t need a second witness but to child sexual abuse you do, I really do believe that the governing body are so dumb in the way that they truly believe that they would be a second witness to a child sexual abuse case, you wouldn’t find any cases that has a second witness that sees the crime. Shame on them and let’s hope more organisation takes them to court like what the Australian Royal Commission did. The other thing is that why do they always blame Ex JWS for everything that goes wrong in their organisation or if they hear about any negative press about their organisation, they always turn it onto apostate. When in fact it’s the world wide media that knows about their child sexual abuse cover ups, so to blame it on apostasy just means that they are feeling threatened and scared about anyone finding out about it.

[@Peekaboo-Kitty]

GB are idiots who do not understand the Mosaic Law. The two witnesses does not apply in every single situation, and certainly does NOT apply in the case of Rape. Deuteronomy 22:25-27 states that when a girl is raped in a field with no one to hear or protect her, other witnesses were NOT required to convict the Rapist.

[@jwsuicides8095]

Watchtower's lack of humility is always their undoing. Their inability to say they were wrong has always been their undoing.

[@Cococonutt]

Apostates are considered liars against god, so if they are promoting that Jehovah's Witnesses use the two witness rule than how are they lying? It is WT policy. Many members, including me never knew that.

[@holirumicsfriend]

What is your definition of apostate?

[@Cococonutt]

Holirumics Friend the Bible's paint it in a much more grim light, someone evil or who is purposely lying and slandering God and purposely misleading. If you search google for Jehovah's Witnesses the org considers that the beginning of becoming an apostate, BS.

[@gin1baby]

Pickeledcoconut is this something you newly discovered? Or have you been awakened for some time?

[@Cococonutt]

Cat Lady I've only recently realized this

[@gin1baby]

Pickeledcoconut well welcome to the club! I was so hesitant and couldn’t make my mind up for awhile because I didn’t know anything else. It gets better from here but research is key. John Cedars is very intelligent and he lays everything out clearly so there’s no way you can have a doubt about what he’s saying. And again, you can always research it yourself to make sure.

[@greg27zz]

Makes me proud to be an apostate! Thank you for the rebuttal Lloyd.

[@barrycharles4640]

Good on you mate...!

[@deadpilled2942]

I don't know where you're at on your beliefs, but Christ loves, and you're welcome with any Christian church.

[@stm345]

So where is the ‘clear Scriptural rule’ for the formation of a ‘judicial committee?’

[@robinkimjung]

One of your best rebuttals so far! I feel sympathy for my family and friends, whom I still love, for not having the opportunity to watch such a video simply because of the fact that someone like Lloyd is denounced as an apostate. It's simply sad that the gb seemingly puts less effort in working out their guidelines affecting millions of lives than an "apostate" when making a 40 min. video. I really want to thank you for the great amount of time and work you are investing! You have helped me and so many others. If you ever come to Germany let me know, I would really would like to thank you personally because the information I found by means of your channel has changed my life. Unfortunately I cannot donate any money, but I really wish I could - just to support you in getting all of this out to more jw's who are still under the mind control of watchtower. Honestly, I cannot thank you enough. Keep up the good work!

[@LloydEvans]

Thanks Robin! I'm so glad my work has helped you in some way. I would love to do an event in Germany at some point. It would be great to meet in person! :)

[@gorlestondoug]

Just how are there going to be 2 or 3 witnesses to instances of child sexual abuse? By their very nature these crimes are done in secret.

[@lj8816]

Douglas Crabtree Exactly! Sounds like they want pedophiles to get away with their crimes. Smdh.

[@69alicefreak]

IT'S ALL BY DESIGN TO PROTECT THE PEDOPHILE ELDERS.... CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL WAS A FREEMASON TOO, DON'T BELIEVE ME, DO SOME RESEARCH

[@Peekaboo-Kitty]

GB are idiots who do not understand the Mosaic Law. The two witnesses does not apply in every single situation, and certainly does NOT apply in the case of Rape. Deuteronomy 22:25-27 states that when a girl is raped in a field with no one to hear or protect her, other witnesses were NOT required to convict the Rapist.

[@saffronhammer7714]

Who on earth are the people giving this video (exposing the lack of protecting children from rape and molestation) a thumb-down?

[@houstonhandsome1]

Myrm Ants one can only HOPE 🤞🏾

[@RhianChambers]

My mum separated from my dad when I was a baby Cus social services had informed her that he can’t live with me or my brothers Cus he was a convicted child abuser (physically and sexually) the elders knew that’s why she’d moved. When my brothers left home she would consistently say to me when I leave she’ll be all on her own. The only brother (jw meaning of the word) who showed her attention wasn’t what she wanted but she was worried to be alone so she spoke to the elders to get advice and they told her to take my dad back, so she did. He promptly beat me to a pulp (I was 12) she told me I deserved it and then told me to walk my friend home who was hiding under the kitchen table and then told me to stay the night with the Witnesses who lived next door who’s son then sexually abused me that same night. My mum stayed with my dad for a further 2 years while sending me to live with other ppl. I turned my back on the Witness at that same time around 14 years old and when I finally had my own daughters in my mid twenties I started questioning her decisions and started actively asking her. She wouldn’t talk to me about it to the point she began shunning me. Last week she moved to Yorkshire to be with my only brother who is still a witness and his family without a word to me. My other brother who doesn’t believe didn’t even tell me till I noticed her house was empt and asked him myself. It hurts to know now that there is no reason for her to ever return and unless she wakes up which she probably won’t as she’s almost 70 now I’ll never get my questions answered. I’m never allowed to have closure. My story isn’t unique or the worst but hearing this man defend this rule makes my heart break for all the kids who are reaching out for help right now and I hope they’re saved as soon as possible. It’s a destructive cult that deprived me of my childhood and stole my family as my brother, his wife and his kids all shun me too. Not to mention I now suffer with severe anxiety which started at the same time as my falling out with my mother. I’m so alone, my kids have lost the only family that’s close to them as my husbands family live in Australia and I feel that I’m to blame even tho it was my mothers actions and the elders dictatorship that started this chain of events over 18 years ago I’m extremely bitter at how much they still affect my life even tho I rejected them so many years ago. They still have control to some degree over my life and if my mum dies before confronting these issues they will forever have a hold on me. It’s highly depressing

[@whitespace7130]

Hello Rhian, so sorry to hear your tragic story, sending you my love x I am in England too, been out for 18 years now. Please feel free to send me a message on here if you want to chat :)

[@Dexion845]

Rhian Chambers I read your story and god forbid something like this should EVER happen to a precious daughter of his. I am deeply moved and have prayed to God just now so he can provide comfort for you. My family is also hard-hearted into this organization and they refuse to have an open mind even when I find scriptures that contradict the watchtower teachings. Please go here and tell a professional about your case www.apmlawyers.com/practice/sexual-abuse-compensation-claims/jehovahs-witness/ Please pray to god and tell him how you feel. How you feel that even he might have been responsible for corruption bestowed upon you. Through much prayer and reading the scriptures. I’ve been able to find Christ and can now clearly identify any earthly body that puts itself up as high priest as an ANTI-CHRIST organization or a false prophet. Judgement has begun already and there is a $66 million class action lawsuit in the works for Canada, a $13.2 million lawsuit that happened in Cali. Russia has completely banned their activities and the whole mess in Australia. The U.K. is also investigating. Seek help and remember God has not ever forgotten about the crimes committed against you. Seek the truth in Christ Best wishes to you and you will be in my prayers

[@sonyawolf2398]

Hugs, love.

[@jamieangel3766]

Rhian Chambers: So sorry this happened to you. It breaks my heart reading your experience. When our parents join JWs we lose them to the GB. We children always come second, or third or fourth to the GB. We never really had them in the first place. Your whole family becomes the one you make after leaving, your partner, your children and true friends. I hope you find closure or if not then at least comfort in your own children, whom you would never subject to what you have been through. xxx

[@tjinfofrance6453]

I left you a comment on your last video saying I was looking forward to your rebuttal about the accuracy in the publications. But that was before I saw the segment about the two witness rule which was even more mind blowing. I almost went back to mention it, but here you are...that was quick!!

[@LloydEvans]

Thanks! I'm looking forward to dealing with all the other stuff in the November at some point in the next few weeks! :)

[@jwsuicides8095]

Jackson's response to the 'girl in the field' example during testimony was glib, glib over a very serious subject.

[@rxa-z1124]

I like his videos before I even watch them! I just know they’re gonna be great. A million thanks Lloyd for your assistance in my waking up process.

[@LloydEvans]

Thanks so much. I'm thrilled that my videos have helped!

[@Cylindropuntia]

What an excellent, well thought out, and ACCURATE rebuttal. Thank you so much for making this video Lloyd!

[@LloydEvans]

My pleasure. Glad you found it helpful! :)

[@bellajia223]

fallrightintoplace THANK YOU! Well stated! They twist the scriptures AGAIN. WT is ALWAYS taking the scriptures out of context. The doctrines go beyond what's written just like the Pharisees. It's amazing that so many people are lulled and do not know how to think for themselves. DANGEROUS!

[@bellajia223]

Thank you Loyd for realizing the time to speak about the wrong doing in that religion. Your work as an activist is to be admired. Your efforts to warn and enlighten are having great results 💐

[@UKS12345]

Yes, all of it should be reported to the police by the elders. I was married to a jw and he abused my kids, so I first went to social services and police before going to elders. My solicitor wrote a letter to the elders telling them that if they disagree with me going to the police about it then they will find themselves in court. That stopped them! I also wrote to the law department at Berger to give them the full picture before my local elders messed it all up.

[@paper-chasepublications9433]

I was baptized at 8 years old in 1991 at Veteran's Stadium in Philadelphia, PA, USA. I was DFd at 15, reinstated at 17 and faded at 24 right after I got married. I wrote a book about it called "The Prodigal Son." I just found your channel a few months ago after fading 16 years ago (a few years after being appointed as an MS). Keep spreading knowledge Lloyd.💪🏽💪🏽

[@menolopes6479]

Well done Lloyd. Your presentation is perfectly true and easy for anyone to comprehend. You may not be religious anymore, but a spirit of love and compassion for justice and truth, that spirit, is shining beautifully through you. Thank you brother.

[@T120RT]

Your logic is absolutely killing them, Lloyd! DAMN!

[@kirstenornelas881]

I was just ten years old and had absolutely no idea the gravity of the things I stood up and made those love long promises as a baptismal candidate. I knew how to parrot the information pounded into my head since infancy but had no idea that if something had happened to me at the hands of an adult member that my word would have been seen as a lie unless the abuser admitted to the abuse but of the abuse refused to admit the harm and I did not have two or more witnesses there with me speaking up and who were members “in good standing” nobody would have taken me seriously and the terrifying thing is there are thousands in that position right now. Every single day I look back and cannot believe the fact that a small child (any human for that matter) is basically told outside of somebody actually witnessing the abuse, they are not believed and required to somehow provide a witness to the worst events in their life. No wonder so many born/raised in the organization are now leaving with full knowledge they are going to have to rebuild their social circles and create their own family. It’s dam disgusting.

[@ruthieboots4325]

They are an absolute disgrace. There are authorities with special training to deal with child abuse. They have zero idea, and are not protecting the most vulnerable in the congregation. It's just typical of their arrogance that they cannot pass it over to the relevant authorities. Thanks for this video, well thought out and lots of common sense which they don't seem to have or any compassion.

[@darthfader733]

So according to the WT The Australian Royal Commission is/are apostates? I think the activism of "Apostates" is starting to drive the WT/GB actions.

[@T120RT]

Obviously so!

[@floydkelley3]

After watching the latest JW Broadcasting episode, it is obvious that this is the case as The Watchtower is having to spend time defending their practices. They may be referring to their doctrinal changes as "new light" but [we] all know that the ever-increasing spotlight of ex-JW's is causing them to rethink their methods.

[@honeyholly001]

When we commit a sin they expect us to bare the consequences which could include loosing our family and public shame via platform announcement but when they make a mistake instead of owning it and fronting up to it they claim it's all lies and get angry at apostates for sharing what is already public information. They need to own up, lay bare their mistakes and tell us what they are going to do to prevent more of the same. This is not Jesus organization. He wouldnt be "CEO" of something that bought reproach on his father like this.

[@the22ndday]

Darth Fader - Great name by the way...

[@justyouraveragenico2387]

This is extremely disappointing but not surprising. In one sense though, it's good that this makes it even clearer that this is NOT God's organization. Not that I had any doubts but this is another piece of convincing evidence that can be used to help those Within the organization that are having sincere doubts. Thank you for preparing and sharing this pertinent information.

[@matthewbaker5084]

Great job!!! I have been disfelowshiped since sept 2014. I have not seen my parents since that time. In this time i met a wonderful woman and had a baby girl that is almost 2 now. THIS WEEKEND i will meet with my parents as they finaly want to meet their grand dauter. Loyd... i just want to thank you for your support and help thru your videos. They helped me become the critical thinker i never was. I am going to do my best to be tackfull with my parents as i want them to be in my girls life. Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for your work!

[@truthseeker-jwnightmares4351]

Lloyd, This is your best rebuttal so far. Amazing... you hit that soft ball out of the park.

[@truthseeker-jwnightmares4351]

Dude!!! you literally exposed Watchtower as incompetent and negligent. They are not only covering for pedophiles.... They have set up a pedophile paradise! Looks like the new pedophile system really did start in 1914..

[@pauljoyquilter359]

I notice that they conveniently left out the other scripture (which Angus Stewart pointed out to them) which accepts 1 witness in a case of rape where no 2nd witness was present. The JW mixture of using Old Testament commands mixed with Christian principles on a completely selective and ad hoc way, is a hallmark of Watchtowers confusing array of rules that make no sense. These guys are dishonest at best, evil in reality. Child sexual abuse is a crime, as the ARC clearly showed. There is no excuse for sweeping such crimes under the carpet.

[@georgebrown8312]

You are right. Sexual abuse against children is not only a sin against God and man but it is a serious crime against humanity. In fact, this crime should be listed under the sin of fornication.

[@timwarner4450]

Anyone who would unemotionally spew this without taking into account the seriousness of child abuse is probably abusing children himself.

[@BenDover-fm7bm]

Its funny how they will rigidly stick to this two witness rule when it's plainly obvious that an abuser will not do this in front of a second witness. But they'll disregard what Jesus said about not charging interest to your brothers (i.e. in the context of congregational loans from the society) Luke 16:10

[@queenofwonderlinda]

i just now watched this video and was reminded of what happened to me. i was called to the "back room" and was told they had heard i had moved in my disassociated neice. she had just given birth, was single and a severe epileptic. she was unable to care for a newborn. the rule of thumb then was business could be conducted with a person who is disfellowshipped or disassociated. well i didnt "move her in", she was there only a few days. here's the clincher.... i said "who told you this?" well they wont say. i then knew who it was. I said "you took her word for this?" they said "well no, another elder told us". i said.. " you took the word of just ONE person? i thought there was a 2 witness rule!!! she had reported this to one elder, he mentions it to 2 other elders and they seem to think its fact. i walked out leaving them with egg on their face. they didnt like me after that

[@GEC416]

they seem to want to apply this "2 witness rule"...as they please..I was DF'D for adultery and no one had a meeting with me..there wasn't 2 witnesses to my adultery....I was unaware of my DF'ing...so how did this rule apply to my sin?

[@mreyesonthelies4386]

For consensual sex they only have to observe you staying together overnight enter in evening, leave the following morning with someone you are romantically involved with

[@GEC416]

as far as i know nobody did that....as i said no metting with me to see if i would be repentant...just axing me and that's that....but one good thing i never had to attend another meeting or go bang on doors etc. again and that was a relief.

[@mreyesonthelies4386]

gail conroy I just read their secret rulebook, no direct observation of sex required to establish guilt for adult sex, just observation of overnight stay with a member of opposite sex. You may not have been aware that you were observed entering or leaving. Child sex abuse though normally involves someone who is trusted to look after the child so in child abuse direct observation of sex by 2 witness is required. Appalling hypocrisy and misplaced priorities for sure.

[@GEC416]

i get it but i could be entering somewhere with a man to visit. have some wine, talk about problems, do yoga, make plans for a party etc. lol...of course i did end up eventually having his child but long after i was DF'D....no DNA test was done.

[@williamenoch7652]

Geoffery Jackson appeared to use smoke and mirrors to take attention off the issue of not needing 2 witnesses for a CSA victim to accuse, but made it a guilt of the perpetrator issue. That's wasn't Angus Stewart's point

[@maegs1982]

Omg.. I can't even believe the gb and the helpers would even attempt at defending this.. and how sneaky they were in their explanations. "The apostates talk about it and the media have picked it up." As soon as he mentioned the 'apostates,' everyone listening to his argument immediately just disregarded it before he even mentioned it was about the two witness rule. Now they won't even listen to the "mentally diseased apostates" when we make our arguments about how disgustingly this rule has been applied in protecting pedophiles, because they will just say, "the gb said it's biblical and that's it. I will think no more about it." And supposedly WERE the mentally diseased ones. These guys can't even comprehend how or why this rule is no longer applicable. What does that say about their mental state? It's obviously taken over completely by cult propaganda. They don't have any clue how to critically think. In fact, they even think that "critically thinking" is a sin. It's unbelievable. Thanks for this video!

[@fayelewis5476]

"Woe to those who call evil good."

[@theoracle56]

First they keep updating and changing the Bible uphold their doctrine and then they refuse to acknowledge that a CRIME can occur even if only one person has witnessed it. I’m done with these people and I️ hope that they are sued out of existence. Their arrogance and their inhumane treatment to victims of crimes is astounding. Thank you for the video and the rebuttal. It takes the entire ExJW community to come together and fight this organization.

[@gabriellara1764]

The Oracle I am dfed, I hope they stick to Jesus words on the two witness rule. I don't think the numbers are as high as you people claim. On the other hand, if those numbers were true like you people claim, and if they did drop the two witness rule, I can see the whole ExJW community getting a whole lot bigger for you all to come together and fight them. You know pedophiles and all.

[@theoracle56]

Gabriel Lara Wait, are you serious? You are going to motivate me to create my own video. You do realize that a person can be factually guilty of a crime WITHOUT two witness. Are you familiar with forensics? Let me explain since many JWs are not very educated, not saying this is you, but your response makes me question basic logic and deduction, along with understanding the very basics of law. In the court of law there is something called forensic evidence which can conclusively PROVE that someone committed a crime such as rape, assault, pedophilia and someone can be sentenced to prison. The thing is most people that commit heinous crimes do so in SECRET and because they are mentally deranged and delusional most times they will not admit it. With me so far? So there doesn't need to be any witness to a crime for it to have occurred. Someone can in fact be guilty in a court of law without it. Therefore, the religion holding on an archaic faulty doctrine which fears people into withholding from turning people in for crimes they have committed is not only wrong, it is a violation of someone's human rights. Children need to feel protected in their families, but in the Jehovah Witness family, they ARE NOT protected because family members will not turn in another family member least they have two witness or a confession. My grandfather raped his daughters and my grandmother was scared to turn him in because he would never confess to it and it was the word of one of my aunts and him. She was feared into keeping silent. You think this is isolated? Listen to me. Look up the Australian Royal Commission, look up the multi million dollar lawsuits and class actions law suits the Watchtower and Tract Society has been forced to pay out. In Australia they had a database of over one thousand cases of sexual abuse and they ON COURT RECORD admitting to not turning any of them over to the authorities, RiGht now in the United States they are paying a daily fine because they are refusing To turn over their database (yes, they have records) of the estimated tens of thousands of child abuse cases they have never turned over to the authorities, This is all court record, look it up. This organization is filled with child abuse and sexual abuse and rape and instead of focusing on victims rights, they are focused on saving face. There are no Pedophiles in the exJW community, you don't know what you are talking about. You ever heard the joke, "what do you call a reinstated Jehovah Witness pedophile?" A MEMBER. That is the sick truth. They don't discuss it with congregations, most of you have been kept in the dark by the mouthpiece that controls what you think and what you read, but we will not allow these people to suffer in silence. Again, all of this is public record. How can you support a religious organization that refuses to protect victims of child abuse? How can you for a millisecond believe they are the spokesperson for God. Every Jehovah Witness that believes their child has been molested, assaulted, or inappropriately touched needs to go to the police first. Do not believe that this organization will protect your children. Leave these matters to the proper authorities and stop trusting in a misguided exploitative religious organization.

[@naytchh7]

Gabriel Lara I am DF'd also but I had the moral strength to Google everything I could about JW's. I hope you have the courage to do the same. If it is indeed the truth, you have NOTHING to fear by verifying that. Remember the Bereans? We are supposed to imitate their example of "testing all things" and "making sure they were in the faith."

[@vitajay85]

In my state, a young man went to his mother and she went to the elders, Eventually, someone went to the authorities and the JW woman who did this (the boy was 14 and she was in her 30s) was arrested and given six years in prison. I related this to a JW woman and she was upset that that police was involved and accused the media of lying. She seem to be so upset that the authorities were involved. The state's attorney general sued two elders because they knew about this and did not report it.

[@SheilaTrueLove]

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 - “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man FORCES her and LIES with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, BUT THERE WAS NO ONE TO SAVE HER". (Notice what it clearly says: "there was NO ONE there to SAVE her"...There were NO TWO WITNESSES.

[@ratta2006]

Good work Lloyd! Thanks for all your work!

[@robertdawson2743]

You have said in public everything I have said about the two witness rule in direct relation to child abuse. There WILL NOT be witnesses to child sexual abuse. Unless there are more than one perpetrator, one of which confesses to the crime, it's a crime committed behind closed doors by a single perpetrator. Thanks for confirming everything I have thought since finding out about this discusting situation. To be honest I could have remained a P.I.M.O for awhile as my grandmother is a devout witness and I love her to death...but not after discovering this scandal going back years. I cannot continue knowing how revolting the treatment of victims and their families is and how corrupt and deceptive the organisation really is. Thanks for waking many of us up to reality.

[@lynncarter4964]

Maybe they are pulling the "persecution" card? They know they'll be persecuted for this, and the ensuing drama might be a good diversion for the rank and file JW's. Possibly a distraction from even bigger issues??

[@amb163]

I'm astounded at their stupidity and rigidity -- especially considering there are many crimes that don't happen with witnesses present! Like, sexual assault and abuse!

[@Yourthe1iknwyour]

I’m glad you brought out that point because I was going to say how come I was disfellowshipped for sexual things that wasn’t even sex without two witnesses? Yet if a child says they were involved in sex with someone who forced it on them it , they need two witnesses? So it is a lie that they need two witnesses to form a judicial committee

[@Gigislaps]

Thank you for unpacking this more. It is easy to be against the two witness rule and not having the details/argument. Thank you for your analysis.

[@matthewreeves2847]

Great breakdown Lloyd, thanks for spending the time to explain the flaws in this policy.

[@jamesbush1157]

What he should have said is let the watchtower Governing body guide your heart Not Jesus because the people in the kingdom halls cannot learn anything about God or Jesus without their direction their guidance their interpretation. The word of God is not written just for 8 men to discern or to interpret what the scriptures are saying or meaning or teaching it was given to all men 2nd Timothy 3:16

[@lachicarivers51demilo52]

Lloyd, absolutely brilliant! One of your best videos. Thank you greatly. Yes, your thoughts were highly interesting.

[@kazimierzwaach7843]

Well, it’s not only “apostates” speaking about the problem but media as well and fortunately in some places people in houses of justice too.

[@lydiatownsend7789]

It just seems to me that they think if they back down now, they look like they're weak and don't have the moral high-ground. Like someone who's found to be lying, but instead of admitting it, they just create more lies until they back themselves into a corner.

[@69alicefreak]

THEY'VE BEEN WRONG MANY TIMES IN THE PAST, THEY'VE HAD MANNNNY DATES PREDICTED THAT ARMAGEDDON WOULD COME AND ALL THOSE DATES CAME AND WENT...

[@schneider1969]

Thanks Lloyd 😊 for being our spokesman.

[@MRhodes]

Notice how he loads the language:"The apostates." This serves to create fear and suspicion in members' minds. Why not simply say former members or conscientious objectors? But, no, they vilify anyone who speaks out against their harmful policies. Well Watchtower, you have harmed and ticked off too many people and it's coming back to bite you. You may never change your policies but public awareness and lawmakers will.

[@endlessorbaggins8223]

By the way, great vid. Love your arguments and they are solidly supported with scriptures, JW videos/publications, etc.

[@MrBrumlad]

Here is something that crossed my mind as Gary Breaux was trying to explain away the Watchtower stance on the situation. He quoted from the NWT Deuteronomy 19:15 "“No single witness may convict* another for any error or any sin that he may commit.+ On the testimony* of two witnesses or on the testimony of three witnesses the matter should be established" and the watchtower stance of the Two witness rule, what he did not do was read the full context of the passage of scripture which reads "NWT If a malicious witness testifies against a man and charges him with some transgression,+ 17 the two men who have the dispute will stand before Jehovah, before the priests and the judges who will be serving in those days.+ 18 The judges will thoroughly investigate,+ and if the man who testified is a false witness and has brought a false charge against his brother, 19 you should do to him just as he had schemed to do to his brother,+ and you must remove what is bad from your midst.+ 20 Those who remain will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything bad like this among you.+ 21 You* should not feel sorry:+ Life* will be for life,* eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.+ " The passage of scripture that lept out at me was in verses 18-19 does this mean that if they kept to the original in verse 15 they would also need to apply the rest of the passage in which if the person that brings a complaint against someone the elders would need to investigate the matter and if the person bringing the complaint is found to be a false witness they would bring a false witness against the person and remove them from their midst (would that mean shunning a child?) The one thing that we can be sure of and that is that Jesus wil judge with righteousness on the day of Judgement and we know that TRUTH will prevail not matter what

[@candyisevil5377]

Workers of lawlessness...so they have just sealed their fate. Obstinance is always paid with utter humiliation.

[@marciomaia4020]

I got disfelowshiped cuz I confessed to fornication but she didn't cuz she denied it. How sik is that.

[@chelseynicole5498]

I finally opened up to my grandpa about an active jw who sexually took advantage of me during my time of attending meetings(I was 14 and he was 20). His response was rage at first and attempted to make me feel like it was okay, but then followed up with “we could have helped him and now this sin is on him and he could lose his life which is your fault” JWs have this bizzare idea that rapists and child predators can be saved. Regarding the two witness rule he lied to me and said that they don’t follow that rule. I had a giggle

[@ExJWCriticalThinker]

Chelsey Nicole thanks for sharing your experience and yes JW have a twisted view of "normal"

[@kazpawlik9426]

Lloyd,it is Your great voice to show the deception of those who claim they operate having love children in mind.Protecting the organization they are willing to mention the scripture from the Mathew.They know well that not reporting the crimes of mistreated children to authorities is not acceptable.Thank You for the powerful explanation and Your stand as a father and law respecting person.

[@lindalawton5399]

We went to their gates in Warwick - Two witness rule, blood doctrine, and shunning were the three topics the GB were called on. Obviously the guard said they were not available. We ARE making a difference!

[@zollsm6386]

Linda Lawton There is literally a country or two that has a ban on Blood Transfusions and donations. Jews in France don't do anything regarding blood unless it is about Christ. Muslims don't accept blood unless forced or if the doctor or medical persons are Muslims. You might want to tackle the others too regarding blood transfusion. About the country that refuses it, there is a grim history behind why it isn't accepted.

[@luis-og2qu]

Brilliant rebuttal Lloyd. Somehow I don't think jw's will see through the bull given. Hope they do though.

[@natalialovesyou573]

The old hall I used to attend their was an elder who was accused of child abuse but unfortunately their was only one witness. The girl he was abusing. He then confessed to it but NOTHING happened to him. He continued to go the the hall and the girl he abused off had to move to a different hall because she Didint want to see him anymore. She had to leave. It still gets me so mad when I think about it.

[@TobijahBazarte]

Your videos get better and better Lloyd. Very well done.

[@scottpeterson7500]

I truly hope that Watch Tower is bankrupted by lawsuits and criminal prosecution. This is a genuinely evil organization.

[@joycetaylor7613]

Bravo. I’m impressed with what you pulled out of that clip

[@licmy2]

This stupid crap will be their undoing good.

[@thinkngal]

Thank you for an excellent expose on their warped thinking on those scriptures.

[@Alltheshiny.reneeowens]

OMG when i tried to report child abuse i was threatened with ex communication. i was told i could go and make a report, but making such false claims would result i my being seen as an apostate. so yes, they try to silence victims!

[@Ascentyon]

Wait a minute... Mathew 18:15,16 doesn't that say: - Go and tell him he's sinned against you. - If he doesn't listen, take 2-3 people with you, who witness _the fact that you have told him_ he's sinned against you? It doesn't say "Take 2-3 witnesses to the sin", but "2-3 witnesses who can later vouch for you, that you've told him he's sinned" I've heard that Bible verse used often for someone living a worldly life (ex: partying, alcohol). Instead of running straight to the elders, first you should tell him to stop it. If he doesn't listen, talk with him when his parents are there, then finally go to the elders. There was never any mention that those extra people should be witnesses to the sin he's committed, but their job was to offer credibility/graven the situation.

[@ajamubey6924]

Very accurate and truthful information. Thanks for sharing this very important video.

[@joha790]

Surely Deuteronomy 22:25 - 27 applies in cases where sexual crimes are committed and there are no witnesses or anybody to help, as put to Geoffrey Jackson by the examiner at the ARC and to which he gave no adequate answer.

[@anicklabbe877]

Your words Lloyd, so well said. Thank you. ⚓

[@javierortiz8918]

Very nice shirt. The fashion equivalent of "New Times Roman" font.

[@joejenkins8792]

Thank you for your work. It has helped me to decide NOT to get involved further with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[@mantisversions]

I enjoyed how you spoke of current Witnesses "stumbling" on to yr channel. Excellent work, as usual))))

[@joytoyouandme4593]

Matthew 18 is not applicable as the two or three individuals being took are not witnesses to the fault. They are simply witnesses to the individual being approached about the original sin.

[@joytoyouandme4593]

spellbound111 - Yes, I agree, thought for sure he would bring this up- However who would approach a child molester to discuss his sin? This is not the resolution for an egregious sin- It’s not like the individual told a lie or gossiped- This would call for reporting it to the elders- In which case a two witness requirement doesn’t apply-

[@RatedExceptional]

Hello John. Listening to your video, a few questions came to mind. Jackson clearly had no answers to some of the questions posed to him. Yet JW's claim to be THE ONE TRUE RELIGION, so why then did the words in Luke 21; 14-15 fail? "Remember, you are not to prepare your defense beforehand, for I myself shall give you a WISDOM IN SPEAKING..." Why then did Jackson have to wait to ask Jesus "at a later date" for the answers? And since we are on the subject of legal cases and lawsuits; why don't JW's adhere to Jesus' "RULE" in Matthew 5:40 "If anyone sues you in a court of law over you tunic, hand him your cloak as well", in the same manner that they stubbornly adhere to the two witness "rule"? I would appreciate it if a learned Jehovah's Witness addressed these two questions.

[@ladyatlarge3844]

If they wanted to change their stance that laywer Stewart gave them an EXCELLENT biblical get out of jail free card to change policy. They could even say it was revealed that it applies in the child sex abuse if they needed to. And yet they didn't. That speaks volumes!

[@honeyholly001]

When we commit a sin they expect us to bare the consequences which could include loosing our family and public shame via platform announcement but when they make a mistake instead of owning it and fronting up to it they claim it's all lies and get angry at apostates for sharing what is already public information. They need to own up, lay bare their mistakes and tell us what they are going to do to prevent more of the same. This is not Jesus organization. He wouldnt be "CEO" of something that bought reproach on his father like this.

[@williamsawyer9894]

In the "Stay Loyal to Jehovah" convention clip, the speaker's matching aquamarine shirt and tie combination was really declasse.

[@simonmartinez324]

I like to think myself a pretty good speaker (as thirty plus years of being a jdub should do) but Lloyd always seems to bring forth what my mind is saying when watching these “theocratic” parts. Watching makes me want to create my own content because I feel like there isn’t enough who bring out TTATT the way Lloyd does. There’s just to much poking fun or bitterness and not enough “hey here’s some stuff please check it out it will help make more sense of what obviously doesn’t make sense now” and as someone who awakened four years ago and dissociated earlier this year I think the world, the web, and “the tube” could use more peeps like him. Sure I think his political views could use some work ;-) but please please please keep it comin Man. We’re grateful.

[@LloydEvans]

Thanks Simon, you're very kind. I look forward to seeing your videos. We definitely need as many voices as possible!

[@cindycrispin4389]

This reminds me of the major crush I developed for Angus Stewart.

[@grammawpayton]

VERY good common sense/logical response to pathetic justification of an ignorant stance. Thank you, I enjoyed this discussion!

[@docb8316]

They should be MANDATED reporters like school and healthcare staff and volunteers. I want people who facilitate the sexual injury of others by not reporting it to have a violent and angry cellmate as their reward for not reporting.

[@BALCACER]

WT keeps doing harakiri. They want that the rank and file drinks the kool aide "Ad Eternum"

[@kamdenpine1024]

The disgusting irony is that the GB can't accept Angus Stewart's reasoning and, therefore, the out, because then the spiritual food, the new light, would have come from a source outside of the faithful and discreet slave. It's a joke

[@danlec1981]

Another great video. Keep up the great work.

[@cindycrispin4389]

ENRAGED!!!!

[@gun_6741]

Haha ”if you’re not careful it will do trick to your mind” 🤣😂😅🤣

[@wavygoods877]

QUESTION! Does the two witness rule still apply if the accusation is from a non-Jehovah's Witness? Example: two JW parents have a son...And that son says their neighbor touched him inappropriately, would the two witness rule still apply? If not, then what difference does it make if it was a Jehovah's Witness??

[@seektruth581]

In judaism the law teaches that an individuals testimony would be sufficient in terms of molestation or rape. 2 witness rule would be concerning other matters.

[@davidpotter9421]

Plenty of people have been convicted of crimes with no witnesses at all. That is why investigations are crucial. Rape kits, as intrusive as they may be can give evidence of sexual harassment. If a witness can not even report it without 2 witnesses than no evidence can ever be collected and guess what happens. Molestation in the organization runs wild. Due process is paramount for not only making sure those wrongfully accused are exhonerated but also to help insure that victims get justice. It works for both the accused and the accuser.

[@holirumicsfriend]

Great rebuttal however I believe the are some more important and clear points. First the verse in Deuteronomy talks about how one person can't convict. It is saying how one person can't be the victim, jury, judge, and executioner. We believe the same in the US. In the US there is a jury of 12 used to convict. Multiple can convict with the testimony of one! They do this by evidence, witness testimony.. etc. Second, the verse in Matthew talks about 2 or 3 witnesses validating the charges, and validating them as appropriate. Remember earlier in the verse it states, "If a brother offends you". This is past tense. How can you take 2 or 3 more of an offense to you individually in the pst? Look carefully, It does not say 2 or 3 witness of the offense or 2 or 3 witnesses having been victims of the office. It is only saying 2 or 3 witnesses confirming the charges as appropriate. The ESV brings this out more clearly than the other translations. This is a clear error in the JW's interpretation! The JW's need this to force their congregations to stay in. It is all about control and nothing about the truth.

[@thetruthrover]

@19:22 i think you may not have caught Breaux's drift. He seems to be alluding to the fact that authorities may in some cases become involved despite there only being one witness. Obviously not due to Watchtower policy, but most likely due to the parent's deciding to notify the police on their own; Hence, 'consequences'. I did not hear him say anything about leniency of the 'two witless rule'.

[@cristaolegendario6417]

This broadcasting is a good illustration of "Plato's Cave." Being this broadcasting just the shadow of the real, and bigger thing happening out on the real world.

[@uarewhatuthinkable]

I'm really glad they doubled down on the two witness rule. This will make it much sweeter when they fall. Hopefully enough people will wake up and leave the cult.

[@shotzybrownkiddos9892]

I asked an elder about the problem of a child accusing a good standing church member of misconduct and they say that evidence physical + circumstances is also considered to be the second witness. Perhaps my area KH is different in this thinking ?

[@RPM11111]

This [selective] use of the two-witness policy by the Watchtower will only encourage perpetrators of sexual abuse to continue unabated, and perhaps even attract predators to their number. They are more concerned with protecting their already badly tarnished image, than seeing justice for victims, even victims of child abuse.

[@MrEricirene]

Just when I think they can't do anything to shock me anymore, they go and pull out this gem. These people are truly clueless.

[@ChildofGod.501]

The judge who ordered them to pay $4000.00 a day for withholding information on child molestation should hear this broadcast.

[@eviefriend4534]

Thank you. You explained this so well.

[@chelseaangel2589]

The GB needs to remember that they, nor elders in the congregations, are trained to handle cases of a criminal nature. If there is no confession, the courts will decide. They think they are above the law, are Christian's not urged to be in subjecion to the superior authorities?

[@gregsoddworld]

Matt.18:16. is not referring to the two witness rule anyway. verse 15 speaks about a sin having been committed, a sin that has already been established. this is about admonishing a brother to repentance not establishing evidence for a sin having been committed. verse 17 confirms this as it says "if he does not listen to them (the two or three) speak to the congregation etc. They twist scripture to their twisted views.