Werner Herzog: "You just don't do it"

Werner Herzog, Director of GRIZZLY MAN, speaks about the moral responsibility of what not to show on film when creating a documentary film.
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[@enricomartins4121]

1:50 LOL Superman video reference We probably won't see it any time soon, but the footage does exist, or at least, existed.

[@littleroom7]

no wayy

[@JulianCinefilo12]

Teorizo que si existe pero no de la manera como lo cuentan

[@enricomartins4121]

​@@Zerowunzero Well, there is footage of jumpers, but as Herzog describes it? Landing close to the recorder? This footage is not available anymore. Not only LOL Superman, but many videos and images of jumpers were removed from the internet.

[@ironhandz1]

I think that what he did show in the film regarding the tape of their deaths was a stroke of genius. It would have been unethical to present the tape in the film, but the horror of its existence is important to the 'narrative' of this movie. Instead, he listened to it himself, and showed Pavolak's raw reaction to His own raw reaction to this horrific incident. That was just heartbreaking alone, but was the best way. Instead of showing the gore or the sounds of actual death, the scene focuses on gut-wrenching loss. Herzog has made films where he put himself and others in jeopardy for the sake of his films, but this shows that there is a line that even he will not cross. Kudos, sir.

[@nitro3921]

true

[@jevinday]

I've never seen a filmmaker be so respectful, intelligent, quick thinking, and do it all with such a wonderful stroke of grace. I didn't need to see the footage. Artistic integrity in film these days is so rare

[@LilSayo]

He is a wonderful man. I have so much respect for him.

[@AuoraWolf5911]

1:49 lol Superman

[@who7950]

So that confirms it?

[@enricomartins4121]

​@@who7950 Probably, but this also mean that we won't see it anytime soon.

[@user-fg1tt7py6e]

I would also consider the fact that their loved ones could be exposed to that.

[@dreamer2260]

This is one of the best arguments against including any recording. I would never release it for the same reason.

[@4231jerome]

Yeah, when Herzog is listening to the tape there is a woman there who seems to be from the victim's family. At first he says 'you should never listen to this' then he says that she should destroy the tape. So it doesn't hang over her. This is wisdom and compassion from Herzog

[@BigOvlogger]

We all have a moral responsibility to protect our family, friends, and others we have never met. The best side of humanity is protecting one another from exploitation and thereby, shedding light on the positive side of life. Werner protected the dignity of these two people by making a decision not to show the raw horror of the audio.

[@heizegaming3671]

huge respect for this man...for not allowing the audio to be release...someone might get a huge trauma cause by their morbid curiousity

[@loadapish]

and we all want to hear it

[@beenis9842]

so glad someone in these comments finally said they respect him

[@jaredscabinlife2868]

I think it’s nuts he had his tent placed where all the bear trails meet in one conjunction

[@erikak8187]

I don’t thinks it’s nuts that he did that. It’s border line phsycopath that he did that.

[@fherguzzvolkodhlak5182]

1:52 the definitive proof that Lol superman does exist or existed

[@Todd-um9bo]

No its definitely lol superman

[@Querencia7779]

He’s absolutely correct. I have so much respect for him.

[@MarceloKuroi]

So much obsession about a destroyed footage, so much people reclaiming him for allegedly satisfying his gore appetite and being egoistical, he looked disturbed and that footage came later in post-production. Werner Herzog is a great filmmaker and he did the right thing.

[@MikeyPaper]

No! Shut up! I want to hear the tape like many others. Don't destroy the evidence. Let it serve as a reminder for people who get too close to wild animals.

[@hamilt55467]

There’s a lot of people that NEED to hear because they don’t fully respect these animals

[@gourmetbacon5750]

Every person with a normal mind knows that you don't try to become friends and live with wild grizzly bears. Showing the tape won't do shit.

[@LilSayo]

@@hamilt55467 Do I need to shoot your family for you to understand that shooting someone is bad? I think probably not? So the same shit here.

[@xrmoff]

@@MikeyPaper I agree - it's gruesome but life is gruesome - if we hide from the horrors of reality then we live in a naive and sanitised way

[@user-ik8ts2lf1u]

I remember some people saying they were disappointed that the audio wasn't left in, and I couldn't believe that they actually wanted to hear a couple being eaten alive. I could understand if it was a horror movie, but this was a documentary. In other words, people were actually brutally killed. Who needs to hear that? My respect for Herzog has greatly increased.

[@styxl.]

i would make a joke about your pfp right now but i wont.

[@BubbleTown2829]

LOL it’s Superman

[@00jk0]

lol i found superman

[@brayanlopes5222]

1:50 I have bad news for Mr. Hezog: Someone has shown it. It's lost now but several people have seen it.

[@daytonsouthall1137]

@@Zerowunzerothat’s not what he said though. He said they made impact at the feet of the person filming, meaning at close proximity. We don’t have any videos of that available anymore, only ones that show some things in the background, and a grainy video showing some of the aftermath from a helicopter.. so it most likely did exist at one point

[@sethfarmer590]

He's talking about common decency, a trait that is rarer and rarer these days. For example, I couldn't believe news organizations put up the snapchat videos of the Parkland kids.

[@xrmoff]

I think I disagree - we can't hide from the horror in the world, we live a sanitised existence as it is

[@sethfarmer590]

@@xrmoff Live that way for a while and get back to me.

[@xrmoff]

@@sethfarmer590 ignorance is bliss, eh?

[@link-so9wn]

@@xrmoff True

[@madwilliamflint]

Indeed. It's insane that what he's saying needs to be said. But nowadays it does.

[@BajanNatureMysticDolt]

Amazing the the most recorded day in history still has so much to still be discover.

[@kalex270]

He made the right call. It simply wasn’t necessary to include it. Not only would it disturb the grieving family members, but it wouldn’t do crap to deter people from doing stupid stuff. Maybe a few, but not many. Werner had to listen to it to make that decision for HIS movie. I’m sure he wishes he could erase the audio from his mind, but he never will.

[@wowforreeel]

Good man

[@Kelly14UK]

Calm dude against Kinski

[@katana5562]

Kelly14UK True, Kinski was a hardcore narc that abused his daughter.

[@1805movie]

Take notes, Logan Paul.

[@Merlin_Price]

It's every day, bro.

[@xrmoff]

why is it virtuous to hide from the horrors of everyday reality? it's censorship from reality, which is surely just as unhealthy as witnessing the truth?

[@z0uLess]

@@xrmoff A typical mammalian species survives for two million years. Man has so far lived for 200,000 years. If humanity follows the general pattern, it means that we are now in our teens - and that's how we behave. Big enough to wreak havoc, but not yet wise enough to protect ourselves.

[@jevinday]

It's a fucking damn shame that our society is obsessed with people like Logan Paul while there are people like Werner Herzog that exist

[@Username-2]

@@jevinday true. but you can find some solace in the fact that in 20 years no one will even remember who Logan Paul was, but in 100 years Werner herzogs name and work will still be renowned, watched and inspire filmmakers and artists.

[@calvinlong1265]

I think anyone thinking about doing what Treadwell did should be required to listen to it.

[@markymark7153]

Amen to that.

[@_munkykok_]

Yes, and they should be beaten by an autist in a bear costume while they're listening, for six minutes

[@olderloverxx]

It is a great documentary - it does hover over the 'bear eating' scenario maybe a bit too much possibly. A few graphic images, very descriptive images from the coroner. Werner felt allowing the audio was going too far, intruding on the last minutes of Treadwell and girlfriends life - he may indeed be right. What i did grasp from Grizzly Man, is that Treadwell seemed to be really pushing it, almost asking to be eaten at the very end when most of his familiar bears had moved to a different area.

[@_munkykok_]

He was way ahead of his time, a true TikToker at heart

[@setsail3726]

Werner Herzog you god dame right your great man

[@kokosita]

lol superman exists

[@manifestgtr]

I’m sure Werner is aware but what a scenario like this creates is a macabre Streisand effect where certain people go “😶I *need* to hear this”. I don’t feel the desire myself but I understand it. Layne Staley (singer from alice in chains) is another example. His family possesses the last photo of him before death when he was emaciated, missing teeth and very close to the end…in every documentary comment section, you see people asking if anyone knows where to find it. It’s this twisted aspect of human psychology where someone says “you can’t see this” and it makes your brain go “whoa…this is some ‘here be dragons’ level shit…I HAVE TO see this”. Again, I don’t necessarily feel that myself but I understand it.

[@_munkykok_]

Munkykok understands, too

[@nikitamcconnell8027]

But there’s no way you can ever see this video. He’s not saying “don’t watch”, he’s saying “we decided that you are never going to see that video”

[@_munkykok_]

@@nikitamcconnell8027 I think some people might like to find the original tape/copy.

[@chef-la-da4199]

I admire this man.

[@eisenbergfilms9965]

Mormont Loyalist Mormont 😍😍😍😍

[@golfman6122]

What a great man of principal

[@transfan681]

Lol superman?

[@Goat_Lord]

Gotta be.

[@Goat_Lord]

@@Zerowunzero Guy Rosbrook's footage was filmed across the Plaza and street in the penthouse of the Millennium Hilton Hotel, Mr. Herzog describes the bodies impacting "right at the feet of the cameraman".

[@craigusselman546]

Good for this man if the public's safety isn't in jeopardy you don't need to see it

[@_munkykok_]

*hear

[@Marinkorpse]

That's ethics, good for Herzog. Awesome film by the way

[@iiirhurhhhrh6036]

Please tell me, has the tape really been destroyed since 2003 and has not been posted on the Internet

[@LVasconcellos1]

That's why he's a master.

[@_munkykok_]

*Mister

[@SuperCashed]

It doesn’t serve most level headed people to hear that.. it’s got to be as gruesome of a tape as they come. If ever it was released, it should only be to warn those who want to try anything similar to what Treadwell did.

[@AwsBAwwad]

A Werner Herzog ad on a video of Werner Herzog

[@FelixWheatfield]

I know it's a documentary and thus a completely different kind of film, but I think Grizzly Man is a perfect example of when the filmmaking rule "show, don't tell" is averted and in fact reversed, "tell, don't show" in a very effective way. I think by leaving it to the imagination, we not only respect the wishes of Timothy's family that wants it to remain undisclosed but we can all universally agree on how horrible it is. It allows us to imagine how it looks/sounds in the worst way imaginable, in a way that scares us all individually and in different ways, but all equally so.

[@jimbrown257]

Cont: As for not running the death audio in Grizzly Man, the reason he didn't run it, is because it was more dramatic and impactful to watch someone listening to it and then say "This just too horrible for anyone to ever hear!" The audio would have just been screaming and decades of slasher flicks have made us virtually immune to that. The real way to use that audio was to not play it and just let our imaginations go wild. No audio can ever come close to what our imaginations would come up with.

[@abara5678]

Speak for yourself

[@servebotfrank4082]

What apparently makes the audio so terrifying is that Timothy has a microphone embedded in his Jacket when he died. So you can hear the bear growling and chowing down the whole time.

[@stevehay964]

jimbrown257 Astute comment. I concur.

[@markymark7153]

Exactly! I heard the audio. Its really tim i know his voice from watching the movie and listening to his rants. My imagination cannot come up with a more horrible scenario! Believe me! It was horrifying. Im keeping my ass in a small town as always. I heard it in that wierd little mans screaming the pain of a grizzly pulling him back to the ground and holding him down ripping chunks of flesh from him. 😨 ive watched nat geo films fir decades i knew ahead of time how bears use weight and strength to hold there prey to the ground. Anyone who knew tim in real life would be seething with anger if they heard the audio. Because people!! Its really tim on the you tube audio.

[@markymark7153]

@@servebotfrank4082 that's right. You did your reading as well. Its frigging real horror. What night mares are made of.

[@williamrobinson7435]

Herzog is right to point out these limits. 🎄

[@feliciaromero1646]

That is integrity and respect.

[@_munkykok_]

*provocation

[@Tomthetrain1]

@@_munkykok_How

[@_munkykok_]

@@Tomthetrain1 I forgot, it was a month ago. But maybe it had something to do with the fact that showing provocative videos is indeed provocative. And then afterwards pretending that you weren't going for the clicks, just because you left the *SPLAT* part out... I don't even know what that is.... But it doesn't seem like much proof of integrity or respect. Or maybe I'm wrong and it's totally respectful, publishing snuff videos for personal gain, whilst censoring the death part out, to smoothen out the process, aka legitimizing it. Something about this whole picture isn't quite right. It provokes skepticism about it's nature. Maybe that's it.

[@Tomthetrain1]

@@_munkykok_ I think that the original commentor was just saying that herzog was right for saying you shouldn’t show certain things

[@peter_panda3069]

I respect Werner and his decision, but that doesnt change the fact that I want to hear it

[@tyler1671]

KZbin it its up

[@dfjdskf9234j4fisd]

@@tyler1671 link?

[@tyler1671]

@@dfjdskf9234j4fisd just search it... but I'll warn you if you never hear anyone die before don't listen to it

[@dfjdskf9234j4fisd]

@@tyler1671 all I’ve heard about the recording that’s out there is that it’s fake. I’ve heard the one you’re talking about multiple times.

[@tyler1671]

@@dfjdskf9234j4fisd that's not fake...

[@kingsroadwrestling]

Lol Superman?

[@myfriendisaac]

Excluding the audio was GENIUS 🤷🏾‍♂️🚫🎧🐻 The mystery of it is *still* fascinating decades later, the real thing wouldn’t surpass what I imagine.

[@pugnacious1]

Oh, Werner, I have such respect for the film you made. It was fair, kind, and beautiful. It left me feeling, probably what you wanted: confused/conflicted. Though I have respect for Timothy's conservation efforts-I am in full agreement with the Inuit man who said it IS respect to leave the Grizzly alone. They were NOT "Mr. Chocolates" they are struggling to survive in a world full of people closing in on them with no respect and lots of ammo-but again-poor Tim was trying to fruitlessly keep it away:-( If only the world (esp.the sickos in the U.S. who enjoy watching & hearing the suffering of others through autopsy, criminal photos,etc..) could have the same respect for the dignity of people in their deaths. Yeah, maybe Amie wanted the world to know what happened, but at least some 'unknown' force kept that lens cap on for the perverts' titillation. I doubt they wanted them to see them being eaten alive by a starving bear. It makes my skin crawl to think of the people who seek & show the anguish of others' suffering at the last breath of their lives. God have mercy on their souls. Maybe after hearing, he decided it was best to leave out-why are people so pissed off by that?!? My deep respect for your prudent & considerate filmmaking. Herzlichen dank.

[@harmonyjones8035]

I don't think he can hear you.

[@_munkykok_]

@@harmonyjones8035 *read

[@pch2230]

Absolutely right. It insults both the people who died and the viewers.

[@sheenanyc]

I feel that, of course this is herzogs stance on the matter, and he uses a moral high ground as the reason for not including the footage in question, but he made sure HE got to unearth the audio and listen to it himself, then showing it off to everyone. He might not admit it, but he very much was fascinated himself with the tragic end, morbidly curious about the death of the 2 victims, and yet wants to deny others that voyerism, while profiting from it himself

[@stevem842]

These were my thoughts after first watching Grizzly Man. Well said

[@NightsofShadow]

Well, I think you're wrong, just a little. The woman (i don't remember her name right now) who had this last tape of the 'event' did never listen to it. Maybe he was 'fascinated about this tragic end' like you said, but on the other side, i think he wanted to know if he could use it for the movie or if you even hear anything horrible. But yeah, I think if you have the opportunity to hear such a thing, people want to listen to something like it..

[@rauxmedia]

Well said sheenanyc.. That said, i still think, in this case, he was correct in not including it.

[@protestmyhero5613]

Jealousy is very unbecoming, don't let it consume you

[@snigdhajyotidas3057]

No, he listened to it because he was the storyteller. He had to make the decision whether or not to put this into the film. If it was something of a more lighter nature, perhaps the audio of the last dinner of the two people, he would have included it. He had to act as a judge precisely because he was responsible to bring the story out. He did not want to listen to it just for the fun of it. That's why he doesn't want to see the footages of 9/11 either.

[@uf69251]

Classy Man , Classy Film maker .

[@thomasduff1571]

This dude has got all the answers .

[@UncleErnie71]

@justinianianian Not censorship. Respect for the dead.

[@z0uLess]

He did not grow up on the internet

[@klown839]

Kinda shows you how demonic the internet is.

[@xrmoff]

Live Leak exists - every horror of reality exists whether we want to admit it or not

[@z0uLess]

@@xrmoff but other people do not exist when we swipe them away, ghost them, stop responding or stop thinking about them. the homeless alcoholic veteran. some lonely white man that is taking care of a family member with mental illness and is percieved as having privilege. the autistic woman who was taken advantage of sexually and has to live with it. the little kid who grew up on a farm where they killed the animals she played with. all the people that suffer, we can just remove them with a click of a button.

[@marknecker1996]

@@z0uLess how right you are.. sadly.

[@richinoable]

To join him on that road, one just doesn't consume that media. One just doesn't do it!

[@MrLChurchill]

I don't know about bears but the first night I moved into my new flat a fox ate my shoe - I'd put them outside - unless it was a neighbour. In other words, I think the fox knew of Werner Herzog, and so do bears. What point it was making I'm not sure.

[@joseph7972]

Yes

[@TheRealCabe]

I can easily imagine what it sounded like anyway. A shitty camcorder mic saturated with screaming and bear growls. Why would anyone want such horrible sounds in their ears is beyond me.

[@michelemichele5204]

the audio is available. i have listened to it. it is not complete, but whats there is very clear. you can even hear the bear breathing...very scary.

[@vidjal]

@@michelemichele5204 That is fake audio that you're referencing, it's been debunked multiple times as the bear sounds are looped, it's not real.

[@blueyosh43]

Why is okay to show a plane crash into a building killing dozens of people but not okay to show someone jumping out of the same building? I'm not really seeing the logic here. He says it violates dignity but doesn't say why or what the difference is.

[@Sennadelight1980]

There is a lot of footage of the people jumping or falling to their deaths. The video is supposedly out there of them landing. Their bodies burst open, and they don't look human any longer. The footage of the bodies landing and bursting has been cleaned from the internet. He means the person who filmed it, has never released it for the world to watch. Many believe the FBI has it.

[@User-ge7ni]

almost like i the world isn’t in black or white, seeing a plane crash vs seeing people fall to death is completely different

[@ricarleite]

Herzog: "You just do not show that. Period." Interviwer: "Oh come on... please..." Herzog: "..... oooh, alright! Here it is!" * Herzog turns on a monitor and a full minute of horrible death scenes show up * Herzog: "Neat, huh?"

[@FromTheBiggining]

...lol

[@MaQuGo119]

LMAO

[@asyncawaited]

I see a lot of comments saying the release of audio would help show people that wild animals could never be domesticated; that bears will be bears. I think at this point, most stable minded individuals have taken this into consideration long before Treadwell ventured into the wild. Given the nature of Treadwell's seemingly fantasy like relationship with wild bears, a six minute section of audio would do little to deter him or anyone in the future from believing they are an exception. You have to understand that this type of belief is well beyond sanity and that only the work of a professional(s) would stand a chance of correcting them. That being said, the circumstances of the audio being listened to, but not publicly released, suggests that the intention of conveying the horror without perverting the memory of the deceased was respected. It also leaves the viewer's own morbid curiosity to run wild with imaginative reenactment of the scene. The audio might not even exist. Who knows?

[@DarkAngelEU]

The audio exists as that is how authorities confirmed their suspicions. it's simply disgusting for people to have a need for this footage to be released to support their own agenda.

[@calvinwallace4482]

Sometimes I wonder which one is more monstrous...

[@MikeyPaper]

@@DarkAngelEU Fuck off. Let it satisfy the morbid curiosity, We demand answers!

[@DarkAngelEU]

@@MikeyPaper Did you ever wonder what it must be like to kill a human being? There are actual videos floating around on the internet. I still regret watching them.

[@KyleCorwith]

I don’t think that’s entirely true. He includes descriptions from those who heard the tape and describe the body parts they found. So provoking the images of the event is okay but hearing it is not?

[@fruitydickens6291]

I would pay to hear the actual tape of Treadwell's death screams. Not that I'm ghoulish, it's just that he was so incredibly annoying.

[@troyottosen8722]

Alaska unforgiving, don’t mess with,simple!!?

[@kaneox123]

Or here

[@ezeztztz]

Absolutely without question it was the right decision to not put the 6min audio in the documentary,it should never ever be released to the public,I believe the tape is in a safe vault

[@donkeyballs3307]

He was always there in the summertime when food was plentiful for the bears, fish & berries all over the place , in fall time food becomes more scarce & they are trying to fiattin up for hibernation, they will kill anything they can eat in fall because they are hungry , its the same when they first come outta hibernation in spring, they are hungry & will kill anything they could eat , a bears gonna take the best meal he possibly can & thats u

[@adrunkgorillawithalobotomy353]

Actually, it's not us, or they would hunt us a lot more often than they do. We don't have the kind of fatty resources a bear needs to sustain its massive bulk. A better meal would be an elk, a deer, even another bear. (Yes, bears do eat each other). Humans are more or less a last resort for a bear that may be unable to catch its natural food, for whatever reason, he could be sick or old or injured. As a rule, humans are not on the regular menu of a healthy bear, otherwise anyone who ventured into the forest would probably have not come out alive. Don't pin these animals as blood-thirsty, man-eating monsters. They're not. However, in lieu of their normal prey, they do occasionally consume people. But, people have also hunted and consumed bears. It's a full circle thing.

[@tantesassa]

The Grizzly Man documentary has haunted me....something about his child like being, his wonderland belives....A cuddely coca-cola bear? The audio wasn`t ment to be released, many Dumbnuts make fun,but one in specific (called In memory of ...) I will never sleep again.

[@tgshort7638]

Copy of it almost certainly made by cornors office and the one circulated seems authentic it definitely sounds like Tim's voice on it they claim it's fake but it sure sounds authentic the screaming is primordial and hard to duplicate I think it's a Copy

[@YGODeckDoctor]

how can the audio be sitting in a bank vault for 20 years when the attack happened in 2003. I think this guy twists the truth quite a bit. He's facts are wrong on multiple occasions on his recollections. (for example the story he tells about listening to the audio with the headset on and the EXACT events that happened, the woman does not cry until after he asks for the audio to be stopped. Little intricate facts and events and your telling of them are important, otherwise your credibility is affected) It Makes me wonder if the 2:30min clip on KZbin is in fact real, as this guy clearly cannot recollect things properly.

[@watsonspuzzle]

They should have released a small clip of the audio to scare the living hell out of anyone else thinking to pull stunts like that. There is a fake (purporting to be authentic) audio on youtube, but the level of agony and terror in the real audio would have been so much more horrible. There's no way I could listen to more than a second or two of the real thing.

[@anonfandomguy6433]

+jackybaby1999 there is a reason the very next scene of him listening to the audio clip is two bears fighting, you don't need the horrendous bloodcurdling clip to get the point, for that I respect this man.

[@Divergent333]

its out now

[@terryjfk8593]

where?

[@josephmonaco4503]

It's not out. It will never be out. It is more horrifying than any human could listen to. Even Hollywood wouldn't come close. DON"T MESS WITH BEARS...

[@josephmonaco4503]

I agree with Werner about "You just don't violate the dignity of Timothy and Amie, But with that said, I also have lived in Montana for 7 years , most of it was in Nye,Mt...population 3 people, not counting myself, my 2 children, my son and my daughter and my ex-girlfriend. I also saw Grizzly Bears every day and had my own Terrifying experience with an 800lb male one late afternoon and I survived only by the Grace of God Almighty. My 170lb Wolf attacked an 800lb Grizzly that was charging me from behind and gave me enough time to get into my pick-up and Rocky " My wolf" then jumped into the bed of my truck and escaped my second near death experience with Grizzly's. I NEVER did what Timothy did with bears, to this day I have Horrifying Nightmares still about what happened to me, BUT I think that some people should be allowed to listen to that 6 Minute tape to teach people what really happens when you play and mess around with Bears. That tape might save 100's of lives... I understand that it is horrifying, but think about how many lives might be saved from listening to it. I know that this won't change your minds though. I totally understand why you won't allow it to be played. I also believe that Jewel Palovak has listened to that tape. I can see it in her eyes.

[@Ghastly-Mitten]

My man, that is a crazy-ass story. Thank god your Wolf was there. Interesting point you make about the possible positive benefits of releasing the tape. There was a little snippet released online (idk if it's real) but it's without a doubt the most horrifying piece of audio I've ever come across. I do not plan to ever find myself in any sort of close proximity to a bear, ever.

[@IamAwsomeYouAreNot]

If we ignore the reality of death.. what becomes of humanity?

[@hgyuuuuhj098]

Immortality?

[@IamAwsomeYouAreNot]

@@hgyuuuuhj098 I was thinking more of..ignorance. :P

[@yommish]

is anyone confused about how they died or the fact they are dead? No reality is being ignored. There is no reason to distribute a recording of pure human suffering and death.

[@spencerlallouet2312]

Who's here from 2 Bears 1 Cave?

[@BCS1105]

Yep!

[@oOFranCescA2080oO]

I mean... it's just common sense! Only a psychopath (or a sociopathic) would LIKE to hear someone die. I mean, people that LIKE to watch gore on the internet are not sane in the head.

[@grivza]

You are wrong. In this age, I feel we are so disconnected from death itself that we have become desensitized. We hear about deaths on the news, we see people die in the games we play, in the movies we watch, we are exposed to so much death, that it no longer feels real, it doesn't feel like it is something that happens in real life. And that's exactly the feeling I am trying to shake, I want to be strong, to be able to react if something happens to me and not collapse and weep like a girl.

[@laurencurry4528]

@someone else I just happened to come across your post and I see it's very new. The fact is that there is a big difference in someone dying vs someone being torn apart and eaten alive. From what I read, Timothy had a voice activated Mic in his shirt pocket. I'm sure there were guttural sounds that no stable human could possibly appreciate. Two people were eaten alive by what I believe was a hyperphagic bear. I'm not so sure it was a rogue bear but a bear who was eating ravonously before going to hibernate. Biologists feel that the bear was actually filmed by Treadwell in the week or so before his death. The bear was not one Treadwell knew and was eating rotten salmon pieces. That bear looked at anything and everything dead or alive was a meal. The couple happened to be camped at the intersection of a known bear trail leading to higher ground. There is a fake audio out there that depicts some of the facts but the original tape is sitting in a safety deposit box. Treadwell certainly left video and data that captured probably more information on the Brown bears than anyone had before or after. I read that a couple of years after Treadwell's death, a group of campers camped at one of Treadwell's usual sites and even the foxes he used to throw tennis balls for would run up to them with a tennis ball in their mouth. But just like breeding wolves with malmutes or huskies, or even trying to make a pet from a wolf, it shouldn't be done. Like the ignorant couple that bred ball pythons in Florida. They just couldn't understand why their prize breeder male pushed off the top of it's tank and snuck into their 2 year old's room and suffocated it. Just ignorant... Shouldn't be done. This tragedy cost 2 bears, one that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the bear that had to be killed and 2 humans their lives because It shouldn't have been done.

[@williamwallace4080]

No man. I've just become desensitised to death. I'm sure it would be different in person. I am 100% I have empathy because I am able to feel emotions when I see someone in pain. It's just that (some forms of) violence doesn't surprise me. I mean today, on the news, I heard of a couple getting stabbed to death by a jealous man. When you hear on the news that someone has just been shot to death, what is your first reaction? It's become too common unfortunately.

[@oOFranCescA2080oO]

@@williamwallace4080 i agree, but i have to say that, the news are a thing (it's a description of a distant event from you) to hear or to see someone die in front of you (whether it's mediated through a screen or audio file) it's a different *perception* . My point it's about the need of that mostly. Also i dont think that through desentisizing yourself you would be more "ready" or less imprepared for death anyway... it's just my opinion of course. It's a very complicates topic, i don't know if i'm explaining properly.

[@LisaODavis]

I totally disagree! I believe Werner Herzog, whose profession is to make films, at times at his own expense, truly cared for his subject, and portrayed him in a very sensitive manner, and I believe he liked and very much respected Timothy! He was trying to show how a special kind of man (who I believe Werner identified with in a small way) was trying to live free and alive, not as he would say "without dreams".

[@radiopinkzeppelin2]

I can only imagine how horrifying the audio must be. I remember rogan mentioning once that omnivores, unlike other types of predators, tend to just hold you down while they eat you alive. carnivores like big cats tend to kill their prey before eating by going for the neck.

[@theslaviccookie5137]

radiopinkzeppelin2 much as herzog has said. I agree do not listen to the audio as it is terrifying. I have seen four people die one by dog. And the audio was far beyond those experiences.

[@arthurmorgan7086]

Dude the audio is fake, proven

[@dahliahb.7111]

Arthur Morgan source?

[@nathanmcdonald1572]

@@theslaviccookie5137 you have never heard the real audio tape

[@theslaviccookie5137]

@@nathanmcdonald1572 maybe I heard something that was claimed to be the real audio

[@domenickalexander4167]

Smart man. And a huge thank you for braving the investigation and facts of that dummy’s passion.

[@adrunkgorillawithalobotomy353]

Insulting the dead. Aren't you a kind and compassionate human. We definitely need more people like you. The reason Herzog didn't put the audio in the film is because he respected the two lives that were lost. You should try doing the same. People die in "dumb" ways all the time. Treadwell wasn't the first and he won't be the last, so don't act as if he's the only one.

[@dewok2706]

@@adrunkgorillawithalobotomy353 People insult Hitler all the time and he's dead. Some people deserve ridicule.

[@TheFoxTailPalm]

I appreciate why he didn’t release the audio and he was right not to release it if he had had the power to do so. But it’s easy to sit on a high horse and claim you’re doing the right thing by not sharing the audio when you yourself wanted to listen to it and did so. Granted, you can claim it was for the purpose of his documentary, but really it wasn’t necessary for him to look at the pictures of the bodies at the coroner’s office and listen to the audio unless he felt there were facts that were hidden from the public. Even without listening to the audio it should be pretty obvious it shouldn’t be in the documentary.

[@kaminskasmitchell]

What? These were people he worked with and got to know personally. Whatever media he did or did not observe is his personal choice. The moral issue is in the public exhibition of someone's death, fundamentally different.

[@ldyvengeance1]

My only issue with this is that I find it hypocritical for him to say that he is respecting the privacy of death, YET HE LISTENS to the tape himself. Its ok for me to listen to it but the rest of you shouldn't. He is not a friend or loved one of Tim Treadwell so I see no reason for him to listen to the tape especially if he already held the belief that it woulnd't be appropriate for the film.

[@bobbill3594]

Maybe he only decided after having been horrified by listening to it himself

[@CC42_]

typical elitist liberal mentality. Seriously, this is classic hypocrisy and self importance in action.

[@mvdiablo]

Also describing the 911 footage of the jumpers he describes in great detail. He went out of his way to find those tapes.

[@yommish]

What is hypocritical about that? He decided it was wrong to put in the film and didn’t. You’re just mad you can’t listen to it, you sick fuck. “But he got it hear it and I don’t! That’s not fair!”

[@yvonnebattiste1352]

I don't agree at all, she turned it on for a reason and it's part of the true events that transpired that day. Getting by for 13 yrs w/o this happening sooner is unbelievable, the bear was in it's natural habitat . They invaded it's space and paid w/their life, what did they think might happen, it was a possibility from the 1st day. But yet the bear was killed for being a bear. It would b a good learning tool, respect wildlife.....save your own!!!!!

[@DarkAngelEU]

Do you also eat all the flies you swat?

[@yvonnebattiste1352]

What the fuck does that even mean ?

[@ldyvengeance1]

Also, there is nothing disrespectful about calling his actions hypocritical. I never said he was a bad person or enjoyed it. I think he was respecfully curious which is human nature. Like when people slow down or rubberneck to view an accident on the road. Its not something most people enjoy but its hard to resist sometimes.

[@stefank7144]

I didnt know he did grizzly man, i watched that and enjoyed it... bad way to go Jesus, i was in Alaska fishing with guide and bunch of friends and we got charged by grizzly, thank god after hitting him on head with anchor from our boat he ran off, but that idiot guide didn't have spray or gun, i asked him why not? Never happened before he said? you must be prepared for worst otherwise you are idiot to think nothing will happen

[@Clintwoodz]

rip in peace

[@Vingul]

@Primate Exterminator if you're gonna do that joke then at least say pieces ;)

[@johnlaing9124]

Have you herd the audio that has surfaced on youtube? Is it the real McCoy. It sounds like it. Anyone shine some light on this?

[@stevem842]

It's fake

[@aaronjohnson3699]

Tim's Ex has the camera and has and will not release the audio so nothing's a Real Recording of it.

[@stevem842]

Aaron Johnson I understand morbid curiosity, but would anyone actually want to listen to a man screaming and pleading for his life as he's being eaten alive for six minutes

[@JD-Media]

Steve Em My mordbid curiosity tells me I need to hear this video for myself.

[@stevem842]

James Dean Won't be any way for you to get your hands on it, unless you contact Treadwell's ex-gf and get her to lend it to you. If you're really that curious though, a minute and a half clip just surfaced a few days ago showing a sloth bear eating some poor indian man alive. The guy doesn't scream because the bear is eating his face. It's pretty graphic, NOT a good way to go. There were a bunch of people looking on and screaming but there was nothing they could do. The guy died

[@nuancolar7304]

I don't disagree with the decision not to include the audio recording in the movie, but to say it would "violate the dignity of the death of these two people," seems a bit rich. Considering how preventable this was, I find no dignity in the deaths of these people. Certainly they did not deserve to die the way they did, and I do not wish to disparage them in any way, but let's look at the facts. Timothy Treadwell got himself killed, he got his girlfriend killed, and he got two bears killed...the bears he claimed to protect. There's a lot of madness and insanity in that, but no dignity.

[@erikak8187]

Excuse me keep in mind none of this is Amy’s fault. She did not want to be there but I know she did not intend for things to go deeply south ending up dead. Can we at least give her dignity and respect.Tim is totally at fault 100 percent.

[@yommish]

If someone kills themself, it’s still wrong to distribute recordings of their death. It doesn’t matter whether it’s their “fault” or not.

[@c0der1020]

The only good thing Timothy did for Bears was give the one who ate him a better chance of getting through winter.

[@annalejandro1]

No, Rangers shot the bear. It did not make it through the winter.

[@letterbox54]

a better chance no less

[@harmonyjones8035]

No, a worse chance. The bear wouldn't have been shot if this dumbass hadn't been there 'preserving' him.

[@chodkowski01]

They apparently wanted their demise recorded and story told. People could have learned a lot like what a real bear attack is like from that video. 2 ways of looking at this.

[@annalucy89]

There was no video, only audio and it wouldn't have served any purpose other than people's morbid curiosity! People know it's dangerous to be around bears and they've heard about horrific attacks and kills on people over and over and they still do these stupid things with wild animals so hearing a tape of someone being eaten alive isn't going to do anyone any good or "educate" people about these dangers! They didn't want their demise recorded you idiot, she took out the camera to record a possible bear being outside and some shit like that, she didn't know she was going to die! she didn't know what was going to happen and that's why she dropped the camera because the attack caught her so off guard so no putting the tape out wouldn't do shit for anyone other than satisfy some assholes need for hearing people screaming in agony while they're being killed!

[@Man-From-Another-Place]

There's nothing to be learnt from the recording. People just want to listen to it to satisfy their ghoulish curiosity.

[@delona6485]

The nature eliminates the stupid but my regret is for the three bear who were killed afterwards.

[@dahliahb.7111]

He was a conservationist who made a mistake and got himself and his loved one killed, I only wish he had brought a bear rifle to protect himself with, an animal is not worth more than a human and I wish he’d gunned down 500 if the fuckers if he was still here. Fuck you

[@archiesnownose2117]

I may be wrong but I think he said something about not killing a bear if he was attacked. But still, bear spray at least maybe would have saved them but if that bear was ravenous maybe not.

[@dahliahb.7111]

@@archiesnownose2117 oh dont get me wrong, nature and wildlife are no joke ofc, but what im taking issue with is the assertion that he and an inocent woman deserved to die because "hehe they were dumm". there was every chance in the world that the bear was never gonna stop unless killed

[@aintnuthinbutathang1646]

Fuck off you "darwin awards" edgelord, Timothy Treadwell was really stupid but that doesn't mean you should be callous about a fellow human being dying a horrific death.

[@davejacob5208]

though i have to admit, i am extremely curious as to how the fuck it really looks when someone jumps out of a building and hits the ground. like, do we get a fluid? or an extremely deformed body? lots of blood? or hardly any blood? so many questions, so little answers.

[@davejacob5208]

@Jordan - I have more than enough reasons to think about that. Bye.

[@davejacob5208]

@Jordan - I already said I am extremely curious about it. More than enough reason.

[@hil449]

you can find videos of people hitting the floor, just not from wtc. Ofc it looks different because its a couple, maybe 10 stories high and in the case of wtc it was 70+ stories so people literally desintegrated

[@chickenpiggies]

Funny that Herzog, someone responsible for more madness, injury, and suffering than any other filmmaker of modern times, talking about the ethics of documentary making. He's still right as always though.

[@markusviehauser]

Could you elaborate? When and where did he cause suffering etc..

[@Vingul]

@@markusviehauser chickenpiggies is full of shit. Herzog is a daring filmmaker in many respects, and some people have gotten injured during the making of his films for sure, but to leave a cryptic comment like that is silly.

[@kitpalmer1583]

@@Vingul IIRC a lot of rats were killed in the making of Nosferatu and there's debate about whether or not his work with indigenous people in films like Fitzcarraldo constitutes exploitation

[@guillegui6487]

@@kitpalmer1583 who tf cares about the rats? Seriously.

[@mmobrowa]

How has he been responsible for suffering? I am not attacking. I am ignorant to any of that and curious as to what exactly you are referring to? Thanks.

[@S2Cents]

it isn't necessary to have that audio, period.

[@Albendova666]

Nope. YOU INDEED SHARE THIS STUFF.

[@opium42069]

JRE

[@ghostintheshell21]

@glanzi11 etliche reden ziemlich viel..

[@ldyvengeance1]

Yeah I realize that.But its still hypocritical. Doesn't matter if he got permission or not. Doesn't matter if he's the greatest director. I actually agree that death is a private moment and an individuals dignity should be preserved. Especially a death as horrifying as those poor people. I wouldn't want a family member of mine to have his or her death broadcast to the world or any stranger.The only people who should listen are investigators or family members.

[@mustafam956]

This was before live leak became huge and social media put snuff videos all over the web . Now we even have subreddits dedicated to snuffporn

[@dahliahb.7111]

And everyone on those Reddit’s should take a toaster bath! :)

[@SuperLittleHelper]

@glanzi11 Falsch, Kinski hatte KEINE Schauspielausbildung, er war Autodidakt, genau wie Werner Herzog. Ohne Herzog wäre auch Kinski weitaus weniger bedeutend geworden. Der Erfolg beider war beidseitig bedingt, ähnlich wie bei Martin Scorsese und Robert de Niro.

[@jimbrown257]

Cont (part 3): One last thing, if anyone doubts my theory of why Herzog really didn't run the death audio in Gr.Man, you should read up on Herzog as he was (and I'm sure still is) big on manipulative tricks to create buzz (or whatever you'd call it) about it films. Many of you were introduced to Herzog by reading about the legendary fights between him and Kinski. But those were staged to get publicity for the films. And it worked. Just like the legendary "death audio" worked for Grizzly Man.

[@reeyees50]

The mockumentary Cannibal Holocaust made the same conclusion in the 80s. Its just common sense, no one wants to listen to that. If you do, you will regret it. Simple

[@saltyshapeervessel2.062]

Dignity? Yet he interviews ppl trashing the guy lol

[@HuninMunin]

Not to suggest any active deception on your end but maybe your friend was pulling your leg. There are reviews online written after the film's sundance premiere in January 05 that specifically mention the absence of the audio. Not to mention that Jewel Palovak - owner of the audio and co executive producer of the film - expressedly said that she would not allow it to be made public in any form.

[@tar0286]

I'd listen to the tape to grasp tighter the tragic scope of this world's terror. One is interested, morbidly of course, to learn yet another lesson in fear and tragedy. Of nature's wrath may we be ever weary.

[@andrewhatton1606]

This guy could have put it on there?? I would have to show what happens if your from California and come to be one with the bears. He loved to feed the bears

[@phapnui]

Yes, decency is all too often missing is such tragic matters when someone meets their death. But I look on the bright side, Timmy died doing what he loved... ...feeding the bears.

[@monkeyattackedmyass5435]

I disagree. Many people disagree. I can understand not showing Video, but the audio should have been included in the documentary.

[@AnnaLVajda]

It's like a snuff film? Like Nic Cage in 8mm?

[@dahliahb.7111]

What? No it’s a documentary about a dude who loved bears a lot, but messed up real bad one day and got himself and his girlfriend killed, and his response is to people (freaks) who request that the cameras audio of there deaths be released into the film.

[@RB01.10]

@@dahliahb.7111 Exactly. But the big mistake he made was staying out too late into October, into hibernation time. He stayed much later than he did in previous years.

[@orquideasenelaire]

I don't agree with you on the exploiting issue.

[@yehor_ivanov]

care to elaborate?)