Western Civilization Is Already Dead - with Paul Kingsnorth

[@jeffreykalb9752]

The West died as a civilization in 1914. People of the time realized it. We just have forgotten. What we call the "West" is just a patchwork of memories swimming in a sea of materialism.

[@blackbette07]

The West is not dead. I have to disagree with that premise. For a civilization to be dead it either has to massive death (like from nukes, space rock on a collision to get earth and caldera which is a really big volcano) or a conquest. Even the Black Death didn't destroy Western Europe and millions passed.

[@BBRocker75]

Whole agree.

[@Red1555-i6s]

Why did the First World War start?

[@taketheredpill1452]

Jekyll Island?

[@voltairegoethe]

@@taketheredpill1452 That would be on point - The Mammonites

[@MediaevalGuitar]

When Ron Paul was booed by the audience at the Republican debate, before the 2008 presidential election, for suggesting that nations should apply the Golden Rule to their foreign policy, it revealed something of the mentality in our society.

[@GiWolf6060]

Yeah, like the fact that a governments duty is to protect the rights of its own citizens, and not to throw tax dollars at every 3rd world nation that wants money

[@derekritsma5128]

@@GiWolf6060 But Paul was talking about military and economic warfare being waged, not giving aid to other countries?

[@GiWolf6060]

@@derekritsma5128The treating other nations the ways we want to be treated is what has made the world so unstable. Other nations aren’t like ours. Other nations have different cultures, values, and interests. Pretending that if we are just nice to everyone then everyone will be nice back is ignorant of history. The United States needs a strong military presence on the world stage to ensure peace. Just look at what’s happening to Israel. That kind of stuff goes on because Americans don’t have the stomach to finish wars anymore.

[@chadkline4268]

​@@GiWolf6060we have 2 oceans for protection. We have no need for foreign interests or policies. The point is to mind our own business and avoid entangling alliances.

[@MsJenniferwilson]

the audience bood trump and yet here we are, those audiences are stacked and fake

[@RomanHoliday53]

"What is Western Culture now? Disney and P0rn." -Jonathan Pageau I cannot think of a more accurate discription.

[@philiphart1135]

"A single sentence will suffice for modern man. He fornicated and read the papers. After that vigorous definition, the subject will be, if I may say so, exhausted." - Albert Camus, The Fall

[@TacShooter]

Not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[@davidtagauri2034]

wow that's a good one. Bad tree can not bear good fruit.

[@shkdgg]

Ouch

[@TRUESONSOFGOD7]

@@RomanHoliday53 Disney is porn. Have you seen some of the disgusting phallic images and the pizza gate triangles on some of the characters, Pinocchio alone and talks about going to an island of children when you never return as boys

[@rudiposthumus7798]

I'm a Calvinist Protestant from South Africa and really enjoyed the conversation. My take-out is that it is best to live in a small town or village where you really know and serve your neighbours and community. Where your Church is also small, personal, and sticks to the scripture we received to guide our lives. Smaller and less complicated, humble, fewer distractions and close to nature is beautiful. Utopia doesn't exist, but we can create "islands" that may help to bring us closer to Christ (I hope)

[@lauragiles5193]

As a Roman Catholic I completely agree with you. Saving souls, individual souls, changes everything. We are called to be salt and light in our communities, wherever God calls us. He is planning the big picture.

[@KAT-dg6el]

Here in the United States we call that conservatives.

[@lynettestrauss4401]

Net so

[@velikanskaglava2087]

Rudiposthumus Yes, but the trend is such small villages are dying off, the young go to big centres.

[@charlestrella711]

@@KAT-dg6el- 🤔 There are plenty of big government neoconservatives out there too, and I know of many ‘progressives’ who are just focused on ‘act local’ and do more to help their neighbors and communities than conservatives sitting in church. (btw - I am mostly ‘conservative’ politically - but would be more of what Rod Dreher called a crunchy con back in the 90’s). I get where your statement is coming from and agree to an extent - but these labels - ‘conservative’ ‘liberal’ ‘left’ ‘right’ etc are nearly meaningless today because they are thrown around very loosely.

[@dawnmuir5052]

It's very encouraging to be reminded that just struggling to be a real Christian in our little corner of existence is actually 'doing something' about the turmoil and contributing to a better future for the world, whatever that turns out to be. Thank you!

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

Following Christ *might* mean living faithfully in your little corner of existence. It might also mean leaving your little corner, taking enormous risks, and making a lot of people angry.

[@MikaPilgrim]

Who is a real christian though? I know so called gnostics, muslims, buddhists, esotericists etc, that lives way more "christian" than most of the self proclaimed christians I've met.

[@jawokenn8766]

one man’s repentance has an effect on all humanity

[@charlestrella711]

@@MikaPilgrimDepends on what you mean by ‘christian’. If you mean they appear to exhibit the moral code & ethics associated with Christianity - then perhaps yes - they appear ‘more christisn’ - but if your focus is on Christianity as a moral & ethical system - and not on Jesus as savior - then you’ve got it backwards. That to me is the entire point of this talk. If you’re putting Western Civilization ‘values’ & culture on a pedestal but stripping it of Jesus - and the Christianity from which it sprang over centuries - it is doomed to fall. The only way ‘back’ is not some political program - but a return to the very roots.

[@kevintewey1157]

" turmoil " you mean the result of your genocide?

[@CyberCrusader27]

I've been saying this for years. It's a zombie masquerading as it's former self. Eventually even the corpse falls apart.

[@liarwithagun]

And I think the poison that killed it was the "Enlightenment". I think that the Cathlics were right.

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

We are all part of nature which breeds in season on the vigil, nature goes forth and always multiplies, then it is always replenished.

[@kylek1556]

One of the biggest issues people fail to see today is that we ARE NOT a capitalist society. We have a central fiat bank, it’s illegal to use real sound money and the US will go to war with any country who tries to use non-fiat currency. We have no real property rights (property tax and car registration), we have income tax that extremely high. We have socialized bail out of big business who are in bed with the gov. The gov picks the winners and losers in many cases, cov id definitely showed that. I could go on and on on how centralized we are. Both the left and the right are socialist. The beast system is a communist system where you can’t buy or sell without their debt based fiat system. Our founding fathers fought and warned about a debt based fiat system. Capitalism is a wealth based system, not debt based. We are so far from capitalist.

[@txdmsk]

Exactly. People need to understand this. Also, for every 100 male voters there are 115-125 female voters. This shit will never change, because women will always vote for bigger government and more taxes, quite simply, because they are net tax burdens that pay much less into taxes than what is spent on them.

[@siowat7911]

The communists argue that Russia, China etc., are not 'proper' communism in the same way that you argue America isn't 'proper' capitalism. They are both what happens in the reality of the pure ideological case. I place my faith in Jesus, not some system of men.

[@feedthewhale4266]

​@@siowat7911 Libertarianisms greatest weakness is the same as that of collectivist systems: original sin and the flaws of mankind.

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

@@siowat7911 Stop grandstanding. He didn't say he put his faith in a system of man. Why don't you deal with the substance of his comment? If you're going to place responsibility on "capitalism" you should verify the system you're critiquing is capitalist.

[@kylek1556]

@@jacquedegatineau9037 thank you. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through Christ. As a sound money guy I recognize gold is money and all else is debt, an old and true saying. This doesn’t mean we idolize gold. But it’s an honest way of accounting. You cannot lend out what you don’t have. Socialism and communism are designed to be anti-Godly. They make the central powers (big gov) into god and what they say is truth. They have to replace the true God. This is why the Bolsheviks killed tens of millions of Christians. They had to kill the people who valued truth and force them to believe that whatever the totalitarian government said was truth. Sound/true money, private property rights capitalism gives you the option to choose Christ or not. It’s a voluntary system with property rights, starting with the person being their own private property. Communism or socialism makes you believe their fiat lies on all levels, by force. It denies you the right to openly walk with Christ. The person is the state’s property. What the state says is truth, whether you agree or not. The state must take the place of Christ. Christ is the King of kings.

[@karola1292]

What an amazing conversation. It is exactly how I feel about our culture nowadays

[@Scott-d7d]

This is the most logical, sensible, beneficial and important conversation I've ever heard. The best part is that it expresses my EXACT thoughts about today's civilization. THANK YOU BOTH!

[@MiminNB]

This finally is the evidence board that I've needed to put all of the stuff together that I've been thinking for so long. I've never been articulate enough to reason it all out and explain it and this is absolutely a gift.

[@iphang-ishordavid2954]

I think one thing i always learn from paul is that we can never Settle in this world. We are essentially Pilgrims. Some times we want to settle in this our idea of "Christian Civilization " that we dont realise that God is still taking us on a journey and we might find ourselves fleeing as refugees to the Desert after just being lords in the city. Heaven and earth shall pass away!

[@evangelosnikitopoulos]

True! As the Canticle of Habakkuk says, "That I might rest in the day of trouble: when I go up to the people of my sojourning." (LXX translation)

[@WokeInTruth]

Hebrews 11:13-16 KJV. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

[@regeneratus-l2w]

Amen

[@tuObvii]

Like David being anointed as the new King of Israel, but then finding himself hiding in caves & fleeing a rogue army under the leadership of Saul trying to kill him

[@etneet]

I'd wager to say that all that is to teach us that heaven does't pass away. Us thinking that is the case (heaven passing away) can only happen precisely when we have externalized what heaven is into a structure - an idol - which inevitably gets corrupted and changes into semblance of hell exactly because we started believing the structure is the heaven. Meanwhile heaven is and always will be but a mode of being in the present that can only be pointed at whenever we make decisions or take actions. Yes, those do over time build civilizations or structures, but those are not THAT. I suppose that is for the most part also the point of the discussion between Mr. Kingsnorth and Mr. Pageau.

[@dominicpaul1]

SHOCKINGLY high-calibre of guest😮 More of him please! More more more!! ❤️

[@johnphamlore8073]

This is the most mature discussion I have ever seen on KZbin. Really refreshing to see two wise adults having an actual conversation about ideas.

[@Tone_Of_Dials]

That's because most mature conversations get forcibly removed from KZbin

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

@@Tone_Of_Dials This is why I take a screenshot of proceedings, then the data is not lost.

[@danielthrake860]

Exactly, we should not fight for a Western culture that is not Christian. Tolstoy recognized this. The values of our current system reflect the worship of gods that represent materialism, not the middle road of the soul reflected by Jesus.

[@KnoxEmDown]

Tolstoy was not a Christian.

[@Shotzeethegamer]

This was a dumb realization, but we replaced the idea of a heavenly Jerusalem with an impossible earthly Utopia

[@xhysteriaahh]

As above so below

[@RomanHoliday53]

@@Shotzeethegamer Not a dumb realization at all. Well said.

[@kimberlymatt8949]

"Thy will be done, on on Earth as it is in Heaven." What do you think this means, besides that we are charged with the task of creating an existence on Earth like that of Heaven? Don't give up. The problem is that people have vastly different ideas of what is "Heavenly". Go deeper. Isn't it really that we want to decide who gets into Heaven and who is left out? If everyone would give this up, and just assume that everyone goes to heaven EVENTUALLY, (after they've learned through mortal existence what they need to understand in order to become worthy), and Earth would already be looking a lot like Heaven. My humble opinion.

[@vaska1999]

Christendom is not the part of the Christian world once ruled by the church at Rome. It is the worldwide body or society of Christians.

[@daughterofenoch677]

Hebrews 11:13-16 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. "

[@almc9165]

What a great and hopeful opening statement by Paul Kingsnorth -- it alleviates some of the despair may of us have been feeling and helps us realize a path forward through the rubble of post-modernity.

[@niningsetia4213]

Washington 🌪️ NT 😂 Jajajaja Lo kate....cuci dosa kek cuci mobil Blog😂😂😂 Udh tau extreme Rich

[@niningsetia4213]

Ga da suka suka klo udh urusan konsekuensi Mo teirma ato halu Ttp aja aturan gw yg dipake Mo kemna mang? Kan complete clickbait Ya udah....nunggu diksh rejekinya 😂 No 2 fotoin.. fotoin di apart

[@flovv4580]

"you want to get rid of something, you must first allow it to flourish." - Lao Tzu

[@gulanhem9495]

Is that similar to a Shih tzu?

[@flovv4580]

@ No, it's more like a Shiba Inu

[@gulanhem9495]

@ lol good one +1 to u

[@kristenswensen6451]

@@flovv4580 As Christ told us to allow the tares (weeds) that are growing up alongside the wheat that we nurture. Until the Harvest is ready!

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

We became alone amongst the animals because of our fear of death, if one observes nature in season, she gets on with life and breeds in harmony with the seasons and sleeps when the cycles of nature are less favourable, we as humans are not living, we are merely existing, man was born to live, not to exist..

[@MikeJones-iz1qq]

It seems to me that if people just actually tried to be Christian and follow Jesus' most important commandment of Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself as though it was their GPS for their life, not trying to make errant moral justifications for everything - society would be redeemed almost overnight. If we really believed it and acted on it. If the power structure and the grass roots considered this philosophy their north star and the thing to which all other moral philosophy is subordinated, there would be far less of these horrors occurring. Like Paul said, the unabashed adoption of the seven deadly sins as almost virtuous is at the heart of the rot in civilization. Many of us are simply aiming at the wrong thing most of the time.

[@wilker374]

True. But this comes naturally to average Joes once the institutions in society are set right. So I still believe there needs to be some top-down political activity in communion with the bottom-up transformation in people's hearts

[@MikeJones-iz1qq]

@@wilker374 completely agree. The leaders and wielders of power have to believe in the wisdom of this philosophy and the wisdom of the average Joe or they will act like parasites, exploiting the goodwill of those below them in the hierarchy as they play by a different set of rules. The setting right is imperative and requires vigilance and humbleness throughout. When we abdicate our responsibility to make life easier, we have to place it in the hands of people who care even more deeply than the average with the requisite wisdom to bare the excess weight of that. That's why I think ultimately, a trembling fear of God's judgement and genuine love for all people has to be at the core of any leader. They must be humble. Without that, their commitment to personal sacrifice for this ideal won't be there and we'll tend toward pride and hubris.

[@maciekgutkowski8075]

@@wilker374 from who .. all so called "Conservative Christian" parties have decades ago stopped supporting real Christian values. Do Republicans promote Christian values? Does the Conservative Party in Canada or the Tories in the UK promote Christian values? The answers are not even close and it's like that in all Western democratic nations. There are no real significant political parties/movements in the West that truly promote Christian values ... any party that does is a fringe party accused of being a "radical hate promoting party". So what top-down political activity are you referring to?

[@DainBaptist-x4y]

100% this. If the whole world were Christians this planet would be so much better holy. Talk about making heaven on earth! That's why I'm trying to convince my friends!

Your enemies remind your daughters to love their neighbours as they love themselves.

[@DonBailey-od1de]

Put Christ first in your life , and all things will fall in line behind him.

[@Hieronymus864]

Indeed: discipleship is key. Difficult enough as it is. ❤

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Should we follow the bibles recommendations of genocide and under age sex trafficking ?

[@danielhutchinson6604]

@@Hieronymus864 Bush Administration efforts made sure the Government Money flowed to Religious groups. The ability to buy Votes only extends so far.

[@tjm937]

How is that working in Gaza?

[@DonBailey-od1de]

​@@tjm937 Dust to dust , ashes was not spoken of the soul .

[@shotinthedark90]

The city can become a compensation for our lack of inner "civility." That is the problem. Our civilization lost its heart and has no view toward cultivating the inner man whatsoever. Christians must oppose the mechanisms that crush the soul and spirit while supporting those that uplift it. That is the ambiguity we saw with COVID. The hospital became rather inhospitable. Though obviously the hospital is good it is not the ultimate good. What we now call civilization is always already misanthropic, and Christendom has lost its saltiness, i.e. its single-mindedness toward God. Everything is crying out for true martyrs but nobody wants to be one.

[@maciekgutkowski8075]

Your last line hit me as the bullseye ... "Everything is crying out for true martyrs but nobody wants to be one."

[@1ntothefray583]

Wonderfully put! Amidst the daunting world that we find ourselves in.

[@waderivers99]

Well spoken. I removed myself from the world many years ago and then realized it had returned. It was now in my hand.

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

We are taught to ask for a leader, when we could all be our own leaders, what we lack is our links with the earth, the range of the original human spirit and a vision of how things might be.

[@vanessaday258]

“We have to live in the tension.” The roots of the tree grow down while the crown simultaneously grows up.

[@evanbrooks8737]

Love this analogy

[@Red1555-i6s]

We don't have to live in the tension. That destroys civilization.

[@evanbrooks8737]

@@Red1555-i6s think about it more on an individual level

[@Red1555-i6s]

@@evanbrooks8737 You can't understand the situation without understanding the grand scheme. You tried individualism and it brought you ruin.

[@evanbrooks8737]

@ are you not an individual?

[@blacksheepchurch]

Praise God! I have been screaming about this subject for years. Thank you both for your honesty and love of our Lord. God bless you both.

[@blacksheepchurch]

@ oh I have been acting brother. No worries there. God bless you.

[@guanabacoaguajiraguanabaco3280]

Amazing conversation. And it has brought me both, hope and despair. Not sure how else to describe it. God have mercy on us! 🙏

[@eternityonedayatatime]

"my christianity" .... the flesh profits nothing. The Resurrected Spirit in us is Life. Flesh and religion was judged at the Cross. Paul was given the mystery to reveal POST Resurrection which is now Christ is our Spirit Life. We are New Creations. The flesh profits nothing and wars against the Spirit. Ephesians 1 and all post resurrection Pauline scripture demonstrates our Reunion Communion is Christ Life in us NOW. Salvation by Grace through faith in His perfect finished work and Blood alone. He is done with Adam and Eve Christless Independent - selfie "I". I was Crucified with Christ it isno longer I who live but Christ Who lives in me. The Gospels show that man is inherently full of death. He showed the disciples - PRE CROSS that spiritually dead men can not mimic LIFE. He didnt come to change us our flesh is death. All ego independent flesh is death. Flesh wars against Spirit. Your flesh gets no back pats. His Blood is the I AM THE WAY He csme to co crucify the old man and give us His New Life. NEW LIFE IN HIM The Blood makes us New Creations fully complete indwelt Children of our Father. The Spirit in us cries Abba Father! Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15 45. What was rhe purpose of the Cross. Scripture the Word the Cross reveals all. Philosophy is not LIFE. Christ is our Life. Peace to you on your journey Home 🕊

[@Xhris57]

Happy afterfeast of Theophanes, Jonathan!

[@lifedaftie7026]

First honest talk I heard in a while … We need to start being honest with ourselves.

[@Teodor974]

Your guest articules so well what I have been thinking about for some time. Thank you, great discussion!

[@Dienekes678]

We are living in Biblical times. This Great Apostasy has been foretold. We are now witnessing the birthing pains, and soon enough, the Tribulation shall follow. Crazy, wild, exciting, and frightening times to be alive!

[@radagast7200]

We gave up our civilization for the benefit of ungrateful idiots.

[@DontBeAHeroBuddy]

Many such cases

[@jittertn]

Who are they?

[@radagast7200]

@@jittertn they?

[@jittertn]

@@radagast7200 who are the ungrateful idiots?

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

You mean the oligarchs, don’t you?

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

I like what Kingsnorth says near the end, that we shouldn’t worry about preserving western culture, just go back to our spiritual roots of desert spirituality. From there, we will grow in health. David Bentley Hart says Christianity’s fecundity is in recourse to the early witness, not late growth. To reproduce XIX c. Tsarist Russian Orthodoxy is a dead end, but reinvestment in primitive Christianity will yield renewal. This is why he patristic witness is crucial. Protestants threw out the Church to ‘embrace’ the Bible. But the Bible was collated by the fathers whose scholarship and spiritual leadership built the early Christian church.

[@denisevarner7308]

In essence spirituality is party of human existence that cannot be industrialized. Jerusalem is the individual in full form not a conquest earned or protected through violence. It's the walk not the talk.

[@Observer-g6m]

Ok but remember that countless saints …with the same Spirit as the Desert Fathers and Mothers lived in the space of Tsarist Russia… e.g. St Seraphim of Sarov, St John of Kronstadt, etc etc etc

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

@@Observer-g6m they were not divinized by tsarism but by Christ and their faith in him. Russia, Byzantium, murika, all ‘accidents’ philosophically. Essential to Christianity is a walk with Christ through a world ultimately not our home, doing good, harming none. Killing in the name of culture is unmitigated sin.

[@lecaprice2572]

Dr. Joe Holland’s research into early Celtic Christianity also provides positive models for the future. There was deep respect and harmony with nature - the Great Creator’s beloved creation.

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

@ I’ll look him up. Early Celtic Christianity was directly influenced by Egyptian monasticism it seems.

[@gracenotes5379]

"Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls." - (Jeremiah 6:16a) Paul does a good job of reminding us where the good way is, but it'll cost us if we want to walk in it (and yet we must).

[@paolafr.9753]

Just beautiful citation: thank you

[@YouilAushana]

​@@paolafr.9753 it's Bible verse not some secular college poem. Remember liberals and most westerners hate having some boogeyman in the sky take their agency and independence away.

[@TedBruckner]

(Jeremiah 6:16a Brenton's Translation of the Septuagint) Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and *see* , and ask *for* the old paths *of the Lord; and see what is the good way* , and walk in it, and ye shall find *purification* for your souls.

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

Like the rest of nature who follows the true energy and migrates freely without licence and or control, we humans are in constant resolution with that freedom and will always fail eventually.

[@reinedire7872]

Good talk. Christianity isn't true because it works, it works because it's true.

[@meti326]

How does Christianity works? And all other Religions doesn't

[@Thaddeus-z4z]

@@meti326 All other religions teach that one must work to attain the ultimate promise, Christianity teaches that we are helpless and it had to be gift unearned, Grace.

[@nscore1169]

⁠@@meti326 It’s universal applicable.

[@notloki3377]

Prove it​@@Thaddeus-z4z

[@HammAlex]

Yes but Christianity working is evidence of its truth.

[@lecaprice2572]

We need to go to the healthy roots of our culture. Build local communities and restore local positive cultural traditions, restoring the soil and nature. Forming cooperatives with local organic markets and ethical family farms. Forming guilds with apprentices for the restoration of local arts and crafts leads the way forward.

[@YouilAushana]

Didn't they do that thousands of years ago leading to the discrepancy of today.

[@lecaprice2572]

@ Hopefully this time with peace and without war and with the guidance and protection of the Great Creator.

[@therealtoni]

This sounds so apocalyptic!! Look what had to happen for the medieval civilization to arise from the rubble of Rome and the Barbarians!! This will take hundreds of years. Technology will not accelerate it.

[@lecaprice2572]

@@saolairde396Not really. If one researches the ancient Celtic Christian communities they were a positively functioning hybrid of monasteries and local communities. Dr. Joe Holland has studied and written on these early Celtic Christian communities and I would be pleased to send a link if you wish. So I see these self sufficient local communities as having a spiritual basis. Without a spiritual basis they will not endure for long. If you look at the first Quaker communities in Pennsylvania they set a positive model of cooperation in small rural communities. They were NOT communes - they were small communities where people helped each other, whether it was gathering to help raise a neighbors barn together or in a “quilting bee” etc. The Amish in some respects have maintained that tradition. Let us a build a New Eden together in love and harmony and in reverential communication to the Great Creator for guidance and protection. 🙏

[@Christusvinci]

Just go back to the apostolic faith. Simple as ABC. Protestantism has being a bad bad experiment!

[@watchaddicts1213]

Great episode, Jonathan! I could listen to Paul for days and days.

[@zaxehammer]

Re: Constantine becoming Christian (along with Charlemagne): from what I know, both of these men's wives played a pivotal role in the conversion. Brings back that point about the man being the head and women being the neck of the family.

[@handlessuck777]

I think you mean Clovis, not Charlemagne.

[@baselius662]

You have a good point. There were several Saints who became Christian through women. Saint Constantine had his mother Saint Helena, Augustine had his mother and, not Charlemange, but Clovis the King of the Franks had a Christian wife who made him convert.

[@Observer-g6m]

Maybe a better metaphor is the woman as the “ heart” of the family (not the neck)

[@maverick7291]

Someone either more Jordan Peterson gospels or watched "my big fat Greek wedding"

[@tomasrocha6139]

No, Charlemagne never converted since he was always Christian and there's no evidence that Fausta had anything to do with Constantine's conversion

[@JoanneTaylorQabboJo]

Thank you so much for the inspiration - from an ordinary grandma who has come to appreciate the perceived 'behindness' of the culture down here at the bottom of Africa.

[@RhiannonSenpai]

I just read that Paul Kingsnorth was baptised in 2021 in the Romanian Orthodox Church at a Romanian Monastery in Ireland. Being an Orthodox Christian Romanian myself, that's so awesome!

[@clownphabetstrongwoman7305]

Romanian church I understand, but how that there is a Romanian monastery there? why?

[@RhiannonSenpai]

Because there's one in Shannonbridge, Ireland and he went there.

[@clownphabetstrongwoman7305]

@@RhiannonSenpaithe point of a monastery is to retreat from the world. So they retreated from the world… in a convenient part of the world?

[@heremtica]

​@@clownphabetstrongwoman7305 In case you haven't noticed, there aren't actually any deserts in Ireland.

[@RhiannonSenpai]

@clownphabetstrongwoman7305 What do you mean "convenient part of the world"? There were Christian Monasteries in Ireland for hundreds of years. Also Romania has monasteries in different cities that are hundreds of years old, so has Russia, Greece, Serbia etc. Monasteries don't have to be only deep in the forest or in a mountain, those are called hermit dwellings, where only one monk lives. While in monasteries dozens or even hundreds of monks can live.

[@poorveronica]

This conversation really cheered me up, and helped me to find more balance. Thank you, both.

[@pdalea9256]

Greetings from South Australia. Great hearing you guys eloquently enthusiastically debating the thoughts that I have been ruminating on concerning how easily the cult of Jesus, the idolatry of culture, has subverted the life of christ in the modern world. Thank you for your time & energy.

[@violetfern9885]

Wow… Paul, never heard of you before but you are spot on imo. I found your channel and subbed 😅👍

[@DM100]

Catchecumen here…such a timely discussion for me. Thank you both. 🙏🏻❤️ the last five minutes …spot on. Paul’s cautions are timely. I don’t think Americans are keen to realize that we ARE Babylon.

[@heinrichagrippa1259]

Cargo cult, a museum of a once living culture.

[@simonpaulmiddleton]

Really appreciate this conversation. The thought/observation that the culture is downstream of the lived life of Christians is so helpful. It reflects a truth about multiplication where that which is sacrificed to God enters into the miracle of the seed.

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

Try explaining this to the Pagans who were destroyed by early christianity and its leading voices.

[@LeonieMart]

Thankyou Paul and Jonathan for all you are doing to reveal the beauty, goodness and truth of the Christian story, which we humans continually seem to corrupt or forget. Your humility and humour are an example to us in a world poisoned by pride and cynicism. Go well

[@billbrown1353]

A nice conversation. “If we want the Christian culture back…we just have to LIVE like Christians”. There’s an infinite world of wonder that is fully loaded in the statement “LIVE LIKE CHRISTIANS”. The tone and tenor of his statement sounds pretty passive. Especially when you hear them talk about “action through inaction…”

[@kevintewey1157]

Do you mean the culture of genocide?

[@daughterofenoch677]

This is the culture of believers 👇🏼 Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

[@billbrown1353]

@ Sadly, many make the mistake of overemphasizing miracles. The point of miracles is to convince people to believe (John20:31) and obey (Deuteronomy 18:18-22). “Signs” are NOT the CULTURE. They are SIGNS. A sign “points” to the real value, the real goal. God is love. God is the value. God and GODLINESS is the culture we’re after. The child of God is simply supposed to learn and perform the “ways of God”. (Acts9:2; Jeremiah6:16; Ephesians5:1)

[@stefanielorimer9693]

Thank you for remembering your first Love, Jonathan. He is the power behind the Symbolic World.

[@rollyknevels3570]

I don’t know you. I don’t even know if I agree with anything you’ve said but I have subscribed to your channel based on your fantastic sweater. 🙏

[@daniel-ek9kf]

I hear Christ, and through him a tiny glimpse of the Father. I long for a simpler, quieter life. One of peace, and satisfaction through hard work.

[@nicolamustard7232]

Ooohhhh, I long for the same thing, for me and my family!

[@WhiteStoneName]

10:45 “Our civilization is one where the fewest people die of hunger…” Monocrop agriculture and agriculture of the Machine may prove to be the thing that kills themost human beings. Our future may be like the opening scenes of Interstellar. We are sacrificing the hungry mouths of the future for the gluttony of the present.

[@helhkr]

Only in 2021 US, we killed 625,978 babies in their monthers wombs. We are not even close to be the society that lead less people to death.

[@guildright]

Or not.

[@DIABOLICAL-6]

Not just that. It and Brazil literally sustains half of the muslim world and Africa with it's food production. When it goes down fully, it means literally apocalyptic famines.

[@juliantheapostate8295]

​@@guildrightfood might be more plentiful now but it is far less nutritious

[@spacegene]

@@juliantheapostate8295 Depends on what you're eating.

[@Ciaurrix]

I have been saying this for close to a decade. Thank you for uploading this.

[@julesc9875]

Been suffering from such terrible anxiety regarding the imminent colapse of our civilisation and who might be our new overlords.. I found this convo really touching and in a way reassuring, indeed we all can be part of the solution by following out call to sainthood, trust the Lord’s plan and he will sort it out. Thanks for this video JP.

[@johnsmithers8913]

Me too, but like this gentleman said, Western Civilization died decades ago. Don't have anxiety about what has already happened. Also, this "institutional Christianity" is just the woke religion where the West's old ideas of virtue and ethics has been flipped on its head. For this woke to die the modern West MUST die for it gives it life...and maybe, just maybe the old West can be reborn.

[@dixonhill1108]

Ireland' the story of the Irish saints etc is fascinating. The Irish were the last of the celts, the few peoples not conquored by the romans nor the germanic invansions. When Rome fell, they started their golden age. Something to think about that a golden age is coming from the fall.

[@francestaylor9156]

I recommend learning how to grow your own food. Having a small garden gave me something tangible to do that felt like I could counter the anxiety even just a little bit. Learning to grow food and preserve it has been quite fun. Plus you get sunshine and exercise.

[@tarem4264]

Me too.

[@julesc9875]

@@francestaylor9156 so true .. thanks

[@sunset2.00]

Just got one for Israel ad in you channel for video the west is dying is peak irony.

[@Janika-xj2bv]

Brilliant talk. Couldn't agree more. Modern Man acts as a sorcerer's apprentice in love with his own genius, blinded by pride, forgetting God.

[@scythermantis]

This whole issue and discourse can be somewhat resolved by the simple insight that Christianity is an *Eastern Religion*

[@Tone_Of_Dials]

That is incorrect.

[@gadogadopedes2303]

​@@Tone_Of_Dials It's literally an eastern religion from Asia. West Asia specifically.

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

The sun always rises in the East and man has always followed it to see what is over the next hill.

[@solotrue45]

original form eastern, but in current state its purely altered western roman creation

[@Jenny-nz5fh]

Thank you. This talk has helped me to knit together the tension of defending Christianity and freedom with the obvious hideous aspects of Western culture.

[@temmy9]

It died in the mud of France.

[@bealtainecottage]

Sadly…

[@Saxondavid]

Yes it died to make ✡️ rich and give them rule over all our nations

[@DavidStevenson-gw2eo]

It has been dieing for centuries on the fields of France, Agincourt, Masada, and beyond.

[@sandramckeehan5679]

This was fantastic, I learned so much and with so much . . . I love it when Jonathan brings on guests he wants to discuss things with!

[@maryscott91]

I can’t only say, WOW, until I listen to this again and pray about it. Thank you.

[@John-j8j2b]

I listened to Paul Kingsnorth lecture and I thought it was hard hitting and exactly what we need to hear as Christians.

[@HeartFireSessions]

I’m 15 minutes in so far and when he mentioned “come out of her my people” and what you’re supposed to do with corrupt cities is leave…. I couldn’t help but think of the thousands and thousands of people who have fled California for other states, and the destruction that is now being visited upon the city of LA.

[@francestaylor9156]

We fled LA in 2021. We’ve been trying to convince family to leave but they refuse. I don’t know why they want to stay. Some of the images and videos from the Palisades fire look like Hades. The fire tornado was particularly horrifying.

[@tim2muntu954]

The core of Christianity is Christ's injunction that we carry our cross daily. That stark choice for us, now as then, is the renunciation of power (career, in-group acceptance etc.) for truth. Love of truth (win/win) produces power where love of power causes the weaponisation of EVERYTHING - even children, morality, the church, uranium...weaponises everything in its relentless zero-sum pursuit of Godhood. The choice remains; we either love each other, or die.

[@Greasy__Bear]

When I was chrismated recently I chose St Edmund as my patron saint. My reason matches this talk. St edmund fought against the Danes to protect his Christian kingdom, but lost a battle and was captured. He was given the choice to deny christ and retain his kingdom, or die. He chose death. I feel like he is a good example of a man that did what he could politically, but when it came down to christ or politics, he chose christ.

[@indigobaloon8091]

What a Hero!

[@rosalba3701]

I loved this conversation. Please have Paul Kingsnorth back on again sometime, if he agress to come back of course. 😊

[@Joe-po9xn]

Our ancestors knew that civilizations, societies and cultures were born, matured, and died. It’s natural, and zombies don’t exist. Out of them came something new and unique, yet still attached, inspired by, and drawing from what came before. So must we be.

[@DIABOLICAL-6]

True. At this point our job should be to pass on everything that came out of west. It won't do that something like islam should drag everything back to living like Afghanistan Pakistan.

[@williannelson555]

It's 8 pm this is my first time hearing of either of these two gentlemen. Check back with me. I found this interesting.

[@pyottar]

Awesome sweater, Paul -- big win over recycled plastic "fleece"!

[@1FokkerAce]

The West was in the ASCENDENT as long as we were a Christian culture. We have been in the DESCENDANT from the moment we became a “Judeo/Christian” culture. And that is beyond dispute.

[@EdgarAllanGo]

Let’s do another talk with Paul

[@PaulTurner-tw1yd]

Jesus christ our lord and savior loves us and trust him with all your heart and soul blessings 🙏🙏🙏✝️👁✨️

[@taranmurray7046]

Quite Good. Engaging and Relevant. I am reminded of Saint Seraphim Rose’s words “The answer to Nietzsche is Saint Anthony The Great” I finally got a hold of a copy of his life, so I shall now go and dive into that at long last. Saint Anthony that is. Thank you both for your labours. May Christ increase your Humility and Grace and keep you both on the Narrow and Straight Path towards His Heavenly Kingdom. Dearest Brother Jonathan. I know you are busy, but if you ever considered doing a video of some kind on a life or teaching of a Modern Saint, that would be wonderful. Beauty First! The people don’t realize the Church is still producing Saints! With poor Love in Christ, Your Brother, - Silouan.

[@johnslagboom1836]

You guys are hitting the nail on the head! Paul warns Timothy in II Tim 3:5 "...of a form of godliness that denies the power of it (aka Christ)" i.e. using Christianity as just another culture creating religion, instead of what it essentially is a life transforming relationship with God through Jesus Christ!

[@chinskiszpieg984]

Listening to this made me think "What a great and heavy cross God demands me to cary. What a difficult and distant perfection to achive! How am I suppose to do that?!" But then I remembered that father from Patristic Nectar was teaching about not relying on oneself but on God. It makes me feel like taking advanted of Jesus and his horrible suffering on the cross but isn't it the point, that he did that so our crosses could be lighter?? It's hard to wrap my head or actually heart aroumd it.. Jonathan, may The Lord bless you for your work!

[@kris2223334]

This is a great talk and I owe Jonathan a lot, his content helped me a lot. My opinion is thought Christians have to be careful not to overconsume content. It is very helpful in the beginning but then you have to focus on living in Christ and He will give you all the answers. I haven’t gotten all the answers though yet but that’s what I believe 😅

[@druharper]

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful". - Seneca the Younger “The Left's ideology is regarded by the common people as good, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Not Seneca the Younger

[@marie-clairelafleche4448]

Identity is for self (me in the group) as spiruality is to the group (us in the space, as seen from the self) Tribalism arises from a other group being seen by us as environment instead of communal. These are part of the in/out symetry of self reflection, looking into oneself, radial collapse. The hermetic polarity of "as withing, so without".

[@patrickselden5747]

Brilliant conversation, gents! Thanks... ☝️😎

[@professormaxtrinity]

You cannot outsource your moral compass. That's an indivisual work and the oil in our lamps which cannot be purchased or borrowed. The collectives gather in resonance to each others morality. Once the morality is integrated and that morality cannot be coopted or compromised it can only ring true. When it doesn't ring true, it's naturally repelent to that integrated morality. Morality is analogous to alijnment with genuine and originating design. We can feel when things are out of alignment. They feel warped, inverted and upside down. We come into more alignment through personal firsthand experience with moral challenge, experiment and reflection. It's a milestone in spiritual development.

[@gabrielwarkencharczuk3750]

What Paul says about the beggars and poor people putting the emperor in check remembered me the beggar cursing at King David and the king tolerating it and saying "let him, I need it".

[@MichaelWilson-ee8zx]

The contemporary version of that would be western whiners wearing cheap clothing made by "beggars and poor people" in Bangladesh becoming aware of the fact that it is they who are exploiting people whose lives they are utterly blind and deaf to. These "christians" and their "tensions" make me want to vomit. There are 8 billion human beings on the planet and these two internet celebrities and their supine followers say "we" meaning a few hundred thousand as if that is humanity. It isn't.

[@roberthakchin8520]

That’s so defeatist, rage, rage against the dying of the light. With God everything is possible.

[@RachelNichols-writer]

Assuming of course that God wants to save the West.

[@luapago]

One better assume God is still in charge. I don't think He's done with his people. How about righteous Lot?

[@roberthakchin8520]

@@RachelNichols-writer God loves is eternal and all we have to do is listen.

[@roberthakchin8520]

@@luapago God is always in control, God just allows us to choose our own way. That was a test from Lot, for humanity to learn

[@epav228]

"Is western culture disney and porn? .. yes" LOL howling🤣

[@EddyTeetree]

hi is there a distinction between Disney and Porn? :-D

[@stephenford729]

I hope one day you will have Malcom guite on for an interview. He’s an Anglican priest, and teaches poetry at Oxford. He is currently writing more to the Arthurian stories.

[@WhiteStoneName]

What Kingsnorth says from 20:24 - 25:14 or whatever (forgot the exact time stamp. When he stops talking) is excellent. I’m going to ask my Christian friends who do not usually like/resonate with him to listen to this part and tell me what he gets wrong. Cause I think it’s awesome. And a great description of where we’re at and where we should be thinking.

[@lukaszkorzeniowski9506]

I agree with how much you two agree with each other

[@Visigoth_]

*"The fool looks at the finger"* *"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought."*

[@jurgenbuuts2554]

Hello Jonathan, I ordered a book on your website a month ago and I still didn't receive it! Many attempts to contact through email and contact form. 0 replies! Where is my order?

[@hermanhale9258]

How it worked - Christian kings, Christian churches, Christian nobility, Christian state religion, Christian universities, books full of libraries written by Christians, Christian calendar, Christian national holidays, Christian armies.

Don't forget superstitions.

[@hermanhale9258]

Christians fought pagan superstitions.

[@Tone_Of_Dials]

Welp you're lost.

[@supernovaversion3.05]

Are you talking about dessert religion?

[@hermanhale9258]

@@supernovaversion3.05 Are you a larping Neo-Pagan?

[@lecaprice2572]

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood… Ephesians 6:12 KJV

[@greyforge27]

Maybe Paul himself just needs to become a monk. It doesn't mean everyone in the world needs to become a monk. Someone has to grow the food, at a minimum. Someone has to defend the innocent, at a minimum. Renunciation and pacifism aren't universally literal values in a fallen world. A vision of a "Christian civilization" that Kingsnorth might agree with is in the book The Benedict Option by his and Pageau's fellow Orthodox, Rod Dreher. Yes we can go back to the monastic and ascetic roots of the culture to regenerate our society in times of crisis. We don't have to call into question the value of civilization itself. Edit: Also I might recommend Why Liberalism Failed by Catholic political scientist Patrick Deneen. Deneen describes modern liberal society as an "anticulture" rather than a culture.

[@wilker374]

Yes. I think this is right.

[@drooskie9525]

Yeah. Even the saints wouldn't totally agree with Paul here. Even Saint Anthony met very holy people who were laypeople working day to day jobs, like running a shop or running your family household. We are all called to asceticism, but not all of the same degree. Still need civilization, still need to have kids to keep the world going. Many monks literally think they are too much of a sinner to live in the world.

[@mikehornick4971]

But monks *do* grow food. And brew beer. And some of those who did not, who wandered off into a cave like St. Anthony, quite unintentionally found civilization growing around them. The discussion of this non-planned civilization from 28:11 on, rings true. Our planners today would require Anthony to get a cave permit.

[@michaelwarenycia7588]

Yeah. Mediaeval monestaries were more self sufficient than most modern laypeople ​@@mikehornick4971

[@paulwillisorg]

Culture IS religion. And Christianity is the one true religion.

[@jerricknaylor9686]

When you misunderstand the fall, everything that follows is off target. The fall is a change in our internal conditions. Until that internal condition is resolved, nothing can be fixed. That being said, everything is going exactly as planned. It's the fallen state that tells you society is corrupt. No. It's perfect

[@ethanshepard8608]

It's not planned, rather foreseen. The plan is to be united to God. In the Garden Adam and Eve had that opportunity. Not taking it lead to the fallen world, which the Trinity foresaw and was prepared to save man in order to have him united with them

[@Observer-g6m]

That sounds like the Course in Miracles …. Demon-inspired heretical gnostic text

[@owenchubb5449]

What is this "cohen" thing that Paul Kingsnorth keeps referring to?

[@deviantfish2711]

A koan is sort of like a riddle that Zen Buddhist masters would give to their students to try and break free of logical and rational thought. Usually they were riddles that seemed absurd and had no “true” answer, and the monks would have to meditate for many hours on the nature of the koan. The goal was to eventually lead to a moment of “satori”, or insight, which would bring them closer to zen. I’m sure someone here more knowledgeable on the topic could explain it better but that’s more or less the gist of a koan.

[@WORKOUTSOLUTIONS]

CHRIST IS BORN! ⭐️ GLORIFY HIM ! ❤ Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all Orthodox Christians ☀🇷🇺🇷🇸🇲🇰🇬🇪🇵🇸🇧🇾🙏✝🕊🦾

[@historybehindthemyth9892]

You forgot this 🇷🇴.

[@kristenswensen6451]

@@WORKOUTSOLUTIONS and to all and every one.

[@TheExceptionalState]

Interesting and stimulaing conversation. @24:00 technological animals? I thought we were children of god (John 1:12) @30:00 profound reflection on our wills vs God's will.

[@whatisthetruth5726]

I am from India. It's absolutely true. No hope except God of the Bible.

[@falcondark5338]

"God, because of the hardness of survival, permitted you to build and create. But from the beginning it was not so." This is a hard teaching.

[@mrosati2010]

9:19 Jonathan has picked up one of Petersons ticks

[@wilker374]

😂

[@GraceandTruth77]

We look at everything thru the lens of Creation, Fall, Redemption and Consummation

[@Observer-g6m]

I’m grateful for this dia-Logos between 2 Christian brothers… which is also on behalf of many more Christians thinking along similar lines

[@dervaishali6051]

"Modern civilization, by its divorce from any principle, can be likened to a headless corpse of which the last motions are convulsive and insignificant." Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, ("What is civilization?")

[@sonicleaves]

It's not as bad a people think. It's hyped up and sensationalized for money and power. Evil feeds on fear. Everything is as it should be. It wouldn't be happening if it wasn't meant to happen.

[@justinjones5281]

Just show up and act surprised

[@jerm5466]

Incredible conversation