What About Indoctrination?

[@zeducator99]

From a teacher who studied childhood development, we actually have explanations for why kids lie and it's not because theyre just born sinners. They're just in a stage of moral development where they make decisions based on getting rewards and avoiding punishment.

[@cdogthehedgehog6923]

Hmm but magic cloud wizard threaten me with his kinky torture dungeon if I lie. That makes more sense to me!

[@onyxtay7246]

The irony of scaring people into remaining in that stage forever is not lost on me.

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

@@cdogthehedgehog6923 punish me Yahweh-Daddy

[@wilberwhateley7569]

Isn’t that how “morality” develops in a society anyway? Social units reward some behaviors and punish others based upon how those behaviors benefit the social unit.

[@shadowcween7890]

@@wilberwhateley7569 Didn't morality come in to existence as a social function of risk reward in a social sense biologically

[@Scarnehu]

"We're not forcing anything on our children" The spankings i received in church for not paying attention would disagree

[@ddjsoyenby]

that was a lie i was br@1nwashed from childhood.

[@wilberwhateley7569]

Yeah - they aren’t “forcing” you to do anything: you are just punished until you comply with the religion’s arbitrary rules!

[@jeepersmcgee3466]

Several of my friends were absolutely given the ultimatum "embrace god or be kicked out of the house." Those two are straight up lying with every sentence

[@monus782]

I don't think I'll be disowned if I come out (my sister wasn't when she did) but I still have to pretend to be someone I'm not anymore to my parents because last time I tried to leave my father gaslighted the shit out of me and complicated my relationship with my then best friend, and I was merely switching churches back then! Now that I've left Christianity altogether I don't expect any of that to get better, so ideally I don't want to ever come out but I may have to eventually. That taught me the cruel irony that I can't be honest with the people I'm supposed to be the closest to and it's much easier to talk about what I actually feel to anonymous strangers in a platform like this one, for many reasons I still live with them (especially in this economy) and I don't want to complicate things and rock the boat too much, yet I just want to be free from all of this and maybe move to another state (especially after I recently figured that my deconversion was much more traumatic than I thought and my sister is only person who knows this). Learning about human evolution in more detail back in college was one of the things that led to my faith collapse (because as I've said in other videos if Adam never existed and the Fall never happened then Jesus basically died for nothing as there was no Original Sin to redeem us from) and I wonder if they'd blame my state education for leaving the fold.

[@theyoutubeanalyst3731]

I remember being so afraid to stop going to church because my mom would get upset about it

[@weirdwilliam8500]

“It’s not indoctrination. I’m not forcing them to believe it. I just tell them they’ll be tortured if they question or disbelieve what I want them to believe.”

[@cindys9491]

*forever*

[@nathanlabrador7664]

"But he loves you!"

[@notsogermanantolope6556]

I have had that experience

[@osamaqtaitat]

Lol!! That’s it!!

[@YEY0806]

​@@nathanlabrador7664 "and he loves MONEY!!"

[@stephaniefales3262]

It was sad to hear my Dad say he felt like a failure because none of his kids follow God anymore. For background, three of his kids are atheist, the fourth is non-practicing but not necessarily n atheist. My brother is gay, one sister is married to a woman, and I'm dating a man from a Muslim family. When I joked to my Dad that for a conservative Christian man he somehow managed to raise four non-religious, liberal children, he said " I don't know where I went wrong. Your mother ( who is deceased btw) would be so disappointed". It broke my heart. Not because I was hurt, but because I felt bad for him. He's slowly softening in his ways ( or at least learning to keep his opinions to himself) and loves his children, so it makes me sad that he would carry guilt for not properly indoctrinating his children.

[@yachishairclips2250]

This is pretty interesting... Like, it is telling... That the one thing that being forced upon one's offspring, will be the one thing that would never, ever be followed... It reminded me, of a story I have seen in TV.. of a millitary man who had 3 or 4 sons.. All of them are gays and he is such a tough man before cause he really wants his children to follow his footsteps or be like a real man, so he disciplined them so hard but with no avail.. But he slowly softened his heart and accepted his children

[@SmiIeyyXD]

This is pretty sad although I have to say: The irony.

[@monus782]

I was the last child of the family to leave and I sometimes wonder if this is what my Catholic father would also feel, another reason why I’m so hesitant to tell my parents that I no longer believe.

[@8114梦见]

I can definitely relate. 3 of my parents’ four children are atheist/non-religious. My mom consistently tells me how much she feels like a failure, and that she must have not ever conveyed Jesus’ love clearly, and how hurt she is that I would “trust the world” over her and “abandon the way I was raised.” It is difficult, and I feel bad for causing her this pain, but it’s not something that can be helped.

[@SavageMinnow]

My wife, I think, would relate a lot to this. She's trans and her dad died before she transitioned. Her mom had to deal with a lot of emotions around it. I think, when my wife and her mom finally had a heart to heart about it, they agreed that my FIL would have wanted my wife to be happy and live her authentic life, but it wasn't easy to get there. For reference, my wife was raised LDS

[@shroomer8294]

“You never question if you’re wrong.” Oof, shivers down my spine. Seeing someone lack so much self awareness is a rare site.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Atheist-KZbinrs, Conspiracy-Debunkers and Science-Channel are basically blood-related; to the point where they even overlap in what they cover... all the time. So many cover Problems with Religion, even if we exclude Cult-Experts like Telltale from said Family of Channel.

[@wonder_platypus8337]

Unfortunately not as rare as it should be.

[@Gear_Snack]

Science is not a belief, it is a method of discovering factual evidence. Atheism is a belief. Many default to it due to uncertainty of does their very specific god exist. Chances are that some incomprehensible god like being exists by sheer amount of chances. But God as the bible in one particular denomination (Or any other god that gives a damn about belief in them good or evil) strikes me as unlikely. Please refer to any cosmic horror for that first horrifying scenario.

[@alexjewett7455]

The irony is palpable.

[@sirclarkmarz]

One needs only to attend a mega church or go to a Walmart to see how abundant the lack of self-awareness actually is . Or for that matter any kind of gathering of the far right or left or a sporting event . @@wonder_platypus8337

[@Trainfan1055Janathan]

I was almost kicked out for not believing in God. My parents also treated my depression (from losing my first job) as a nuisance and acted like it was my fault for "not praying the depression away." "You already know what you have to do." First of all, riddle me this: Why does God take away people's mental health just to make them beg him for it back? Why are Christians okay with a tyrant that takes things from you just so you'll ask for them back. "Gee, these people haven't begged me for food in a while." "Guess I better make them starve..." The only way to avoid getting kicked out was to pretend to apologize to God. Religious parents are the worse.

[@JDdr86]

I feel ya'man.

[@mcpuffinarts]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that, I hope you're in a better spot now and I absolutely agree with everything you've said.

[@discoveringsoul7600]

I feel sorry for you man. Hope things are OK.

[@joshuamoody7729]

yeah, people are hypocrites. I think the fact that people including Christians are so concerned with raising up soldiers for the cause instead of teaching children how to be good people. I would personally introduced them to the idea of church and God once they start learning to treat people with kindness. Lastly, I would leave it up to them if they want to follow God or not. people that are deep into religion often forget to think for themselves it’s like their automatons (robotic) and they only express rhetoric passed down to them generation after generation instead of thinking it through. Because, if you’re not godly, then it must be a crime, right?

[@paulbabcock2428]

You weren't praying hard enuf.

[@emilybarclay8831]

Imagine thinking a 14 month old needs to repent and be saved. Imagine looking at a baby and thinking they inherently deserve death and torture

[@gabrielbruce1977]

Right? And Catholics aren't much better. "Oh, unborn children go to Purgatory, because they have potential for both holiness AND sin!" I'm sorry what?

[@zaczane]

Frankly, it Extremely Insulting and offensive.

[@donovanlocust1106]

@@gabrielbruce1977 Catholics are all about that sweet sweet guilt

[@PhoenixtheII]

Uh I thought it was from the moment you are screaming being ejected from your mom's V. I absolutely don't know why anyone want to put more sinners on this world. It's horrible to put that to the kid.

[@gabrielbruce1977]

@@donovanlocust1106 Yeah, it's why I left

[@jacobjohnston3983]

Omg that video of the dad talking to his kid about football was so cute! Fun fact, pretending to hold conversations with baby babbling is actually good for their language development

[@garethbaus5471]

It wouldn't surprise me if a tendency for that type of interaction is hardwired in humans, it might explain why it is so common for people to talk to their pets conversationally.

[@fuglong]

Talking to babies almost constantly isn't just good for them, it's required for normal development. So many people ignore this entirely

[@Mitsuraga]

I know this can sometimes sound pretentious, but that's exactly why I avoid babytalk with any kid, not just my own. I remember when my daughter was about one or so, she would point at any random thing in succession, asking "What dat? What dat? What dat?" over and over, and each time, I would explain in detail what each thing was and what it was for, why we call it that, etc. And she would always nod throughout my explanations and be like, "Uh-huh," as if she understood everything I was saying. I always indulged her, because I knew she was taking it in, in some way or another.

[@bestaqua23]

@@Mitsuraga I think she's mainly understanding that the correct response to a question is an explanation even if she doesn't quite get the explanation yet

[@Mitsuraga]

Totally, and that's why I enjoyed it so much. It's less important that she understood the words, and more crucial to be directly exposed to and involved with the flow of real conversation.

[@craneoflores]

21:30 what bothers me SO MUCH about this line of thinking is denying children sexual education can lead to so many problems down the line. I was raised in a conservative culture where we didn't even talk about human anatomy. When I started to notice changes during puberty (that are absolutely normal) I had no idea and I was petrified that I was sick and going to die. I lived for like a year thinking that I probably had cancer because of normal changes to my body, and I was too terrified to even speak up or ask questions because of cultures like this! Children need to know how their body will work and the earlier we start that conversation the better.

[@sarahmaxima]

This bothers me too. Puberty is already difficuilt enough (moreso for me for trans reasons) but not knowing what is happening makes it so much worse. Speaking from personal experience, getting good education around this subject helps kids who are sexualy abused be able to speak up. Knowing that their body is their own and if someone hurts them that way it is not their fault makes it so much easier for kids to speak up.

[@ambi.z4233]

Oh here's a fun one from me. No one ever taught me that your labia can get sore as it grows, so when I was going through puberty I thought I was growing a big skin tag and I almost decided to cut it off myself but I chickened out :)

[@IAmRoyalty-ng1kw]

''No little kid like wants to willingly share''. Girl, I don't remember my parents teaching me to share but i loved sharing as a child so much so that I now realise I did it too much.

[@amelialalllalala3914]

AAHHH same 💀💀 I'd just give all of my things / money to my sister

[@Coolmanbob7]

"No kid wants to help others. None want to willingly share" Speak for yourself lady. This one quote is why I side with you Trevor, and not these fools

[@ladyeowyn42]

It’s best to teach sharing from a place of plenty. When you teach it from a place of unmet needs, you teach only insecurity. It encourages people of any age to watch their backs and their stuff. Kids learn to enjoy generosity. When they’re older they’ll be more likely to see the upside of giving even when it’s difficult.

[@pennyforyourthots]

Humans are social creatures, cooperation is literally in our DNA. Selfishness is a learned behavior, so if Christians want to get upset about something unnatural, they should have a problem with that.

[@radiorebel8223]

@@pennyforyourthots I think both are instinctual, but the way they are deployed varies from learned behavior. Selfishness usually stems from a perceived lacking of resources/ incoming harm which the body will naturally react to defend itself. We are definitely a social species, but this is because it helped increase our survival. It’s original development in our species is based off of selfish means. We just recognized a mutual benefit in social interactions, and that it was lasting, so we naturally gravitated to it for the continuation of the species.

[@Stervelar]

Exactly, it blows my mind every time when I get to see how unaware these people are about the disturbing stuff they implicitly say about themselves.

[@toni4729]

Christians don't want to share, they always think they have it all.

[@BarkleyBCooltimes]

"No one wants to do good" This is extremely telling of a certain type of Christian. I knew a few who were this way and they told me in one way or another that they would basically sin all the time if it wasn't for God.

[@whitetiger2515]

Those are the scariest types of people

[@wilberwhateley7569]

That depends on how “good” is defined - if society defines actions that are detrimental to the individual’s well-being as “good” then of course no one wants to do “good” and all sorts of arbitrary punishments need to be in place to get people to do “good.”

[@blastortoise]

Same people who say "If gawd don't exist then I'll rape and murder who I please." same fucking psychopaths.

[@lonewolfgamingplus379]

Those people are generally fucking insane. They literally want the End Times to happen and leave this world.

[@wilberwhateley7569]

@@lonewolfgamingplus379 To be fair, most people have days where they just want the world to burn - hell, I sometimes hope that Cthulhu will rise from his temple in the city of R’lyeh and devour all humanity! But then I come back down to earth (unlike those folks…).

[@tos100returns]

The difference between indoctrination and education is VERY simple. With EDUCATION, a child is taught HOW to think. With INDOCTRINATION, a child is commanded WHAT to think. Jordan was totally wrong on that one.

[@trencher8715]

Exactly. You don’t teach students to memorize the times table, you teach them how to multiply

[@Roxor128]

@@trencher8715 I think a lot of people don't realise the times tables are just an optimisation for an underlying operation. They're saving computation time at the expense of storage space. Yeah, you _could_ calculate the result directly every time, but if your multiply instruction is slow and you only have to work in a limited range, you might want to use a bit of memory to store a lookup table with a few hundred results to speed things up.

[@popdogfool]

@@Roxor128 r/whoosh... Maybe? Idk. Lol

[@Roxor128]

@@popdogfool Well, whoosh for a lot of people who never learned anything about programming perhaps. The time-space trade-off is a core principle in computer science. There are many algorithms for a given task and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Some need a lot of CPU time, others need a lot of memory. When you're writing a program, you may very well find that you need to swap out one algorithm for another when you discover that the first one was too heavy on one resource, but one that's heavier on another will get the job done. I think when there are attempts at reforming the education system to get kids to understand what they're doing and parents kick up a stink because they're not being taught the familiar algorithms and techniques, it's because the parents in question don't actually understand what they're doing and instead conflate the technique with the action. They think that times-tables _are_ multiplication, rather than the time-saving shortcut they really are. The problem with teaching people WHAT to think, is that they tend not to actually understand it, which is probably the point.

[@popdogfool]

@@Roxor128 I just meant 'teaching kids to multiply' was a sex joke. Lol

[@RenegadeRaiden]

Sometime before I deconverted, my mom happily reminisced to me about the time I told her I was giving my heart to Jesus... at age 3. I have no memory of it, and thinking back on it makes me feel sick.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Yeah. Good youre out. But do you get youre good Dose of Atheist-Indoctrination (XD) well and good? What about Hbomberguy, Viced Rhino and Creaky Blinder?

[@lurji]

i remember being 3 and saying i hate jesus and love satan at my christian preschool. literally my earliest memory

[@Interdacted]

I remember kind of going to church and sitting in the uncomfy booths and kneeling even though it hurt my knees, being boney. Then being told I gotta sing even though I didn't want to. Then turn around shake hands with random strangers and jinx each other, "May god be with you" it's literally a cult, where you could have individualism, but you have to give that up to make God happy. I'd argue the church created cults. Even if you leave the church it's likely you'll still feel it's affects subconsciously think you're bad, leading to a destructive life and becoming susceptible to being indoctrinated to another cult or life style.

[@BeeLZBeeb]

@@Interdactednd our reply was always “and also with you…” that was in the 80s/90s in the uk, and it was said in the MOST cultish drone. Your comment is spot on, I’m now 41 and still trying to deprogram.

[@renatoramos8834]

​@@lurjiA man of culture

[@Cecil...]

As a prior preschool teacher, children will absolutely do spontaneous acts of goodwill. Unprompted, I have seen kids will try to give others their whole share of their favorite snack, a hug when sad, their spot in a play center, or their own clothes! Children have such a capacity for empathy and kindness that is not purely taught- in some it is very innate. Of course kids can be selfish bullies at times, too- but that's not all they are in any regard.

[@hylianhero2521]

“If I’m a Hindu, how can two and two equal four if all is one?” Well, pack it up boys, we did it. We just found the dumbest “gotcha” statement ever uttered by man.

[@HylianFox3]

I could definitely feel something inside me shrivel up and die when he said that. Like, that is SO profoundly stupid I think I just lost all faith in everything...

[@juniperrodley9843]

It sounds like a shitpost from one of my friends.

[@NearlyInfinity]

Imagine how they would react if someone said "If I'm a Christian, how can one and one and one equal 3 if the trinity is one" or something to that effect

[@BaphometGaming69]

He must’ve been so proud of that one

[@trikitrikitriki]

"You don't teach your kids to lie." Oh, parents absolutely teach their kids to lie. Just like the baby repeating what her father said through babbling, once a kid recognizes that adults lie to them all the time, they start to mimic it. Kids have a strong innate moral instinct against "do as I say, not as I do," so they start lying, too. Edit: It's also an evolutionary advantage when you're part of a social species. Lies are embedded into the fabric of society, lying is an important part of how we communicate. And sometimes it can even save you: from getting fired, from getting hurt, from getting killed even. Even if you believe no one should ever lie, everyone needs to know how to spot a lie, and that obviously also teaches someone how to lie.

[@paulmcconnell7405]

Thinking back on it, I can't believe how many times I've seen a parent pull the "You didn't do that....RIGHT LITTLE JOHNNY?" followed by a stare that could kill a buffalo. They certainly do teach them to lie, if it benefits them or gets them out of a compromising situation.

[@blacky_Ninja]

Parents just teach their children not to lie too obviously. The better the parents are able to uncover something as a lie, the more skilled the child usually becomes at lying.

[@Malidictus]

@@paulmcconnell7405 Yup. Parents lie to their children because "It's just for fun! It's not hurting anyone!" And then there's this. When a child does something they know they'll get in trouble with, the obvious logical solution is to just pretend they didn't do it and hope it goes away. So many parents have the same relationship with their toddlers as with their dogs. Lie to them for laughs, yell at them when they do something wrong. Unfortunately, kids are smarter than dogs and will eventually figure those patterns out - intuitively if not rationally.

[@tos100returns]

My dad taught us kids to lie consistently, from the first time that he beat the shit out of us.

[@annaairahala9462]

I hate that people teach lying as a bad thing in the first place. It's a positive thing of development and a child that doesn't lie correlates with developmental issues.

[@imjustthisgirlok]

When I "came out" as atheist my parents used my Christian childhood as a way to deny it. I am lucky bc I had a really good Christian upbringing honestly; we weren't fundamentalist, no hellfire stuff. And I loved to sing and read Bible stories like a lot of other kids, bc that's how kids are, but my parents seemed to think this was my "default" or original state and I couldn't REALLY be an atheist, and that atheists only come from traumatic Christian upbringings. It makes me sad.

[@multi-milliondollarmike5127]

We don't all fit into neat little stereotypes.

[@mothbyte98]

This thinking actually reminds me of how my parents reacted when I came out as gay. They would bring up “crushes” I had on girls as proof that I wasn’t really gay. Yeah, uh. Sorry you didnt have 15 years to prepare. I didnt even know people needed to be “ready” to accept their gay or transgender kids when the risk of then being either is inherent since birth.

[@snowange.l]

The part where they talk about pulling kids out of school and sending them places got me because my best friend does not have a valid high school diploma because their parents sent them to an ultra religious and now can’t go back to college without getting their GED first.

[@fluffhead6757]

This is why I can't really say "I don't have problems with X religion as long as you don't force it on me". Because they WILL. They force it on their children, they apply it to their politics, they try to pass laws that affect OTHERS.

[@timothywalker1774]

The final line there "They were led to believe that raising Christian children was the only way to be a successful parent" as someone who isn't yet willing to write off ones parents and still hopes to build back a relationship. That bit of perspective is something I've never quite put together and is definitely worth hearing.

[@LawrenceofCanadia]

When I finally accepted I was no longer a Christian at the age of 23 , the sense of betrayal hit me like a brick. Memories of the years of emotional trauma and pain I had inflicted on myself and others bc of my indoctrination filled me with so much hurt and rage towards my family. It took me a long time to accept that they are just victims like the rest of us. This was one of the things which helped me let go of the anger and heal my relationships.

[@williammiller3277]

Look up Cliff Williams at Richmond Christian School. Fundie school I taught music at for 2 years. Failure to report child sexual abuse because they tried to hush it up. Horrible, nasty place. Horrible, nasty people.

[@Pfpfpfpfpf2020]

I'm in the same situation and this comment is really helpful. Thank you

[@halthammerzeit]

@@LawrenceofCanadia Damn. I got it easy. I was sent to church by church no goers.

[@annaairahala9462]

It's one of the hardest things, because so much trauma is from my parents, but they were victims themselves and thought they were doing what's best. So who's fault is it? In the end I can't blame it on anyone, just do what I can to work for a better future

[@katielively9107]

Indoctrination is really about fear. Fear of the world around them, fear of different ideas, and perhaps most of all, fear that the people doing it were wrong about it in the first place.

[@iota-mu]

And fear of Hell...

[@Pfpfpfpfpf2020]

@@iota-mu or just fear of there being nothing after death 😞 I still have hope I'll get over that someday.

[@qwertydog9795]

I guess it goes well with the right-wing political ideology of disliking everything that isnt just like them.

[@tos100returns]

Fear is the essential element to childhood religious indoctrination. Make them afraid to question any of it, under threat of eternal damnation in hell. But the difference between indoctrination and education is very clear. With EDUCATION, a child is taught HOW to think. With INDOCTRINATION, a child is commanded WHAT to think.

[@discoveringsoul7600]

@@Pfpfpfpfpf2020 Same. I'm still young, neurotypical, raised in a religious household, been religious my whole life been baptized in my early teens and deconstructing my faith and leaving. Parents trying to stop me and such, but I'm hoping I can keep fighting my ignorance and such. Very upset how much was wasted on my life and the things that could've learnt if it wasn't born in a religious state. Well, all I can do is practice being skeptical.

[@Ripdric]

Imagine thinking your child is sinful. What a messed up idea

[@wilberwhateley7569]

To be fair, offspring do suck - they are loud, annoying, expensive and don’t provide much of an ROI. That said, “sin” is a literal impossibility if an Omni max deity exists as “sin” is that which goes against said deity’s will: nothing is capable of truly opposing an Omni max deity, so “sin” isn’t a thing - everything that happens does so with that deity’s approval.

[@NathanielWinkelmann]

But most people believe that. Atheist it is moral amongst people I have known.

[@lonewolfgamingplus379]

It can led a child to think they are a mistake, and want to please everyone and to be "pure" in the eyes of "the Lord".. it can lead to even intensify depression and to depression if they decide to leave the fold.

[@monus782]

One of the things that led to my faith collapse was finding out, through a then Church friend, that Augustine (a very influential early Christian bishop) taught that babies without baptism go straight to hell all because of Original Sin (that thing was the very last straw for me later on) and this was the real reason why we had to oppose abortion. You should've seen how furious I was at that idea (especially because I was very "pro-life" back then) and it was the only time I ever blasphemed while I was a Christian, to this day I refuse to worship that demonic being called Yahweh if this is what he does.

[@toni4729]

Read the Bible; it's a sure cure for Christianity.

[@thecomradegeneral6375]

"We're not saying that you have to believe this, or we'll disown you" - fast forward 18 years later and we'll see how true that statement is...

[@alshuki3478]

Man I remember being the worst child in my Christian school because I was soooooo uninterested in what they kept telling. While my parents weren't exactly the most holiest people (they barely went to church full stop) yet they didn't really take into account of how bad/traumatising going to a Christian/Catholic school would be for me.

[@Jedi_Vigilante]

One of my favorite instances of parenting in a movie is in "Gifted", when the genius kid asks her uncle about Jesus, and he explains to her that she has to make up her own mind, and shouldn't just go by what he (or their neighbor) believes. She clearly knows about God and Jesus, but when she asks for his opinion on the matter he abstains so that she can formulate her own. THAT is how parenting should be done. Seriously, these Christian parents in these clips are no better than the washed-up high-school football star who forced his son into playing the sport, then screams at him constantly when he doesn't seem to enjoy it. Is it any shock that the vast majority of the parents who force their children to follow in their own footsteps with sports, career, education, etc. also tend to be religious, and force that on their children as well?

[@JanelleC]

Thing is, parents have to teach about checking sources, critical thinking, logical fallacies, and cognitive bias before the “form your own opinion” approach is logically a safe approach. Otherwise we end up with a bunch of people saying “I JUST KNOW this thing I care about is true and there’s no evidence anyone could show me that would change my mind.” 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@AdelaideTsukino]

@@JanelleC Many have said they don't want their kids to have critical thinking since they may not believe what they are told to believe otherwise.

[@JDdr86]

@@AdelaideTsukino Holy $h¡†! That's pathetic.

[@jake53105]

My wife’s aunt is like this. One of her daughters wanted to be a teacher, and she was told explicitly “no, you’re going to be a lawyer.” She’s one of the most meek people I’ve ever met, she’s not built to be a lawyer. Her other daughter told her mother she didn’t want to be an accountant and was told “well you’re going to try it out for a couple years.” She’s in school for something she hates. And yes, they’re VERY Christian.

[@TryinaD]

@@AdelaideTsukino it’s easier if you don’t have critical thinking to string you up into doing illogical things

[@lemontales5859]

"They will be indoctrinated by someone, so I better brainwash my kids first." instead of teaching them to learn and think for there own is a weird/harmful view point.

[@Callimo]

Right? It's *very* telling that instead of teaching their kids how to suss out indoctrination, they want that control *first*.

[@radiorebel8223]

It’s from centuries of religious authorities manipulation. For most, the authorities benefited from having unquestioning believers, so teaching people to think for their own became taboo. A lot are just worried about their kid suffering in the hell out that religion has terrified them into fearing, so they see it as saving and helping their child, not harming them.

[@monus782]

No wonder why so many of them eventually turned to Qanon and the whole anti-vaxx thing

[@lemontales5859]

@@monus782 yes,most of the q/anti vax ppl I know are very devout christians....maybe all.

[@monus782]

@@lemontales5859 I blame my late paternal grandma for how religious my parents turned out to be and in her last months of her life her conspiratorial mindset was becoming worse, even though she was Catholic she didn't like the current pope for some reason and had she lived a bit longer maybe she'd have fallen for the Q stuff too. She's dead now so not much I can do about it, at least she never found out about my apostasy as she probably wouldn't have taken it well (just like my father after the first time I tried to leave back in high school, and I was merely switching churches back then!).

[@LPNurja]

Honestly, parents who teach their kids that they are born sinful and worthy of punishment (and unworthy of love) are abusive imo. And I've met so many toddlers and little kids that love to share, that get genuine joy out of it. "These people are right, these people are wrong. Now you are totally free to choose!" Uh huh. Seems fair.

[@owietooneowietoall]

that and the fear of hell it is absolutely abusive to tell kids theyre immutably and inherently flawed and to raise them to comply out of suffering the worst pains possible for an eternity yeah its easy to realize where my fucked self esteem came from religious trauma is a bitch *comply out of fear of suffering

[@drxwswonder6449]

I honestly liked public school. It’s the only reason why I have actually friends and a developed personality. Going through public school taught me certain social lessons that I feel helped make me into the person I am today.

[@jamarchy]

I was finally honest with my very devout Catholic parents recently about my “loss of faith” that I’ve been solid on for at least 2 years. I went to Catholic school for 8 years, so I know what indoctrination feels like. But it never felt real to me. Even when everyone around me seemed to fully believe, and I actually tried to talk to God, pray, etc; I felt nothing back, ever. My mom, when she found out, got super angry with me and then cried for hours. I want to try to talk with her about why I don’t believe, but she’s a cradle Catholic who has been devout and indoctrinated her whole life so I think it’s hopeless at this point. It’s just horrible because I know she thinks my soul is doomed to suffer for eternity now and I don’t think our relationship will ever be able to recover from this.

[@miriamlewis3413]

I'm so sorry. That would be so hard to go through. I can't be honest with my parents for exactly this reason.

[@monus782]

For me it was a bit different, I went through my own fundie Catholic phase (by talking to God in Latin and acting like Vatican II never happened) and I think that was the logical conclusion to my own conservative upbringing as I despised Catholics who were less devout and more liberal than I was. For many reasons I still live with my parents and although I don't think I'll be disowned I don't want to rock the boat too much, last time I tried to leave back in high school (and I was merely switching churches!) my father gaslighted the shit out of me and I found out later on that he has some far right links within the Church, I guess that explains some things. Just last week I finally figured that my deconversion was much more traumatic than I was willing to admit (that Catholic identity was everything for me) and although I feel that I've finally seen the light at the end of the tunnel I feel more trapped and alone than ever before, I had to cut off most of my friends (as I made those friendships within the Church) and I sometimes just want to move to another state to be free from all of this. In the meantime I don't think that'll happen any time soon and I'll just have to go therapy and get my life into some sort of direction. I wish you the best on your journey.

[@renatoramos8834]

Don't try to reach for those monsters.

[@ruhfuhquh]

I still remember to that day when I mimicked my muslim dad who was praying, like prostrating on a mat and sitting on my knees, that was when I was in kindergarten. I was sent for early Quranic phonetics lessons from kindergarten, then I read the Quran when I was approaching high school. Throughout those years I learnt about Islam through my parents and the Internet, and at that time I was really into it. It became a part of me and influenced my personality socially. I was really arrogant at that time because I thought I was very well-versed into Islam than most people that I know. Every single thing needed some form of religious aspect tied to it. For example socializing with school peers; whether they believe in god and if so how much do they pray to him. Or how much girls wear tell me how 'scared' they are of predators or god. Or how a guy acting girly tells me how misguided he is and vice versa. In retrospect I now know why only a few people had stuck to me from middle to high school, and come college when I found it very hard to have friends was also when I realized how detrimental my religious beliefs were. It sucks because I'll be known as the muslim kid who took religion very seriously to the point of skipping afterschool activities to pray at the mosque and hardly talks to anyone else who isn't muslim. I can't tell my parents that I stopped 'being a muslim' for years now. They shouldn't and can't know that their only son whom they teach on Islam had stopped being the muslim son that would earn them a place in heaven. It will be social suicide because all my relatives are muslim too. Fortunately, my country is 'secular' enough to prohibit death sentences from religion. It's heartbreaking to know people in other countries have to stay in the closet to protect their lives just because they aren't what a lot of people think they are. Indoctrination into religion is harmful, and even if one should be religious, they should only decide for themselves when they've already known how to.

[@nxs5]

same, i always felt i was an amazing muslim -- when i was eventually put into public school i even tried to convert some people. turns out i didn't know heads or tails of the thing, i couldn't even understand arabic or know about fasting periods other than ramadan. that wasn't what brought me out of it, but it really helped that i wasn't even a 'real' muslim. it really sucks when you try to tell your family and they have a breakdown over losing their heaven ticket, i don't recommend it. but it's freeing to start losing those mental blocks.

[@ruhfuhquh]

@@nxs5 You're right. I remember feeling quite liberated when I convinced myself that I had just put most of my effort and faith into something that had been negatively impacting my life outside of spirituality. I still have some issues like the fear of "a'zab" or retribution from god or something whenever I drink alcohol or mentally shun god. I think I'm getting a bit of religious trauma and the fact that I can't be myself without faking prayers and quranic recitations around my parents exacerbates it. Still, I'm glad to know that there are people out there going through the same predicament. The time I personally renounced my faith to Islam was also one of my darkest periods, so it's very important that apostates back each other up. I found a discord server for ex-muslims called "Colony" not too long ago, so if you're not there yet then joining would definitely help a lot!

[@amberkat8147]

I had a similar experience being brought up Christian. Now I cringe looking back on how judgemental and ignorant I was. My parents aren't too happy that my sister isn't a serious church-goer and I'm an outright apostate, but at least I don't have to worry about being shunned or anything worse for it.

[@moralkombat66]

I'm sorry to hear that. Stay strong.

[@sakmadik69420]

i'm in the same situation but pretending to pray is becoming exhausting to me.

[@MrGummyCraft]

When those ladies said their greatest wish for their children isn’t to be good people but to be faithful I just 😖 yikes!

[@pickledragonrebel]

Yep. Saying the quiet part out loud is really just entitlement which is never a good thing

[@LPNurja]

As a child, I was taught about Jesus. My kindergarten was christian, we would hear bible stories and draw colorful pictures. I had a children's bible with fun pictures at home. In elementary school we had religion class where we learned about all this stuff from a pastor. Thing is. My parents never taught me that I had to believe, or even that it's real/true. I would read the bible stories, turn around, and read a fairytale. It was no different than any other story to me (maybe more boring) and nobody told me otherwise. My mother took me to church on christmas so that Santa could visit. But other than that? My parents were both working long hours, they simply lacked the time to indoctrinate me. And honestly, I'm thankful for that. I grew up and never believed. And never thought about anyone else believing. I was quite surprised when I learned that people do, similar to a believer being surprised to learn that someone doesn't believe. Funny how that works.

[@iwiffitthitotonacc4673]

That must've been like being told that a lot of adults still believe in Santa, I can imagine being in awe at being told that.

[@LPNurja]

@@iwiffitthitotonacc4673 Yeah, a bit. I honestly still can't quite wrap my head around it.

[@HopDances]

As a kid who was fully indoctrinated into it all I'm happy to hear not all children are burdened with such beliefs

[@LPNurja]

@@HopDances I'm sorry to hear you were, I hope you're okay

[@psyfi5428]

I had a similar childhood. Had religion class in school, owned a children's Bible (mostly with colorful stories from the Old Testament), and went to church on Christmas so that there would be presents under the tree when we came back. Never even considered that people believed this stuff for real. It was a conscious decision by my parents who didn't want to imprint any religion on me, thinking I should choose this kinda stuff for myself. I had to specifically ask them "what our religion was" in order to find out we were atheists.

[@alexpender6317]

ugh it's so perverted to me that some Christians are saying that sex education for children is indoctrination and inappropriate, and trying to make kids queer. I was a Catholic homeschooler, and I was taught to fear my body, that I will go to hell if I do like...anything involving my body. I was made to tell a priest in a confessional, in detail, that I masturbated. I was 13. Alone in a room with an adult man. Being encouraged by my mother to talk to him about masturbation. And the consensus was that yes, you can go to hell for masturbating. I was afraid to even touch my body for hygiene reasons, because my catechism book said "it's a mortal sin to touch yourself," but they didn't specify "touching yourself in sexual way." A little kid doesn't know that "touching yourself" implies a sexual touch. I thought it was wrong to TOUCH my body. Like, to fucking shower. And anyway, despite all that I still ended up bisexual and trans. So. Nice try I guess.

[@weirdgirl4611]

As someone who left the religion that they were brought up with, thank you. Especially for that last part, it is awkward because my family doesn't know that I am an atheist. When they bring up religion or prayer I am usually silent because I don't believe them anymore. Am I in good place now because of the support of husband and channels like these. Keep up the good work.

[@fisharepeopletoo9653]

"If I had never heard about God, if I didn't know, would I still be sentenced to hell?" "No. If you truly didn't know God would not punish you." "Then why did you tell me?" Everyone could go to heaven if no one knew about God.

[@stylesrj]

Therefore missionaries are the worst people in the world. Because once they're sent there's no stopping them. If you kill them before they can preach, that can be construed as awareness of God and thus damns them. They're like kinetic kill vehicles being sent to destroy a world...

[@multi-milliondollarmike5127]

That doesn't even make sense because it would imply that Jesus died for nothing. The whole faith is incoherent.

[@popdogfool]

Lots of Christians actually believe that 'evidence' for God/Jesus is naturally revealed to you in nature itself. So you still go to hell even if nobody shared you the gospel or even read a Bible.

[@abbz7455]

I used to justify this problem by thinking that perhaps Christ revealed himself to people subconsciously, so maybe they could be saved and not even have the right words to express that. Now I see that that is a condescending view that invalidates people's beliefs. Like, "oh you are a Christian, you just don't know it yet." 🤦‍♀️ At the root of it, I was just trying to wrap my mind around all the people potentially going to hell, and find a way to live with it.

[@vee1267]

So basically, knowledge of God is the original Roko’s Basilisk 😂

[@Malidictus]

The mere fact that some people will admit to indoctrinating their children and spin it as a good thing is scary on a visceral level. When people are emboldened to say the quiet part out loud, you know something's deeply wrong with society. "I'm brainwashing my kids because otherwise someone else will" is - to me at least - akin to saying "I'm abusing my kids because otherwise someone else will." It's doing permanent damage to your children either way. Just because it's you who's doing it doesn't make that any better.

[@qwertydog9795]

same. my dad referred to the classical Christian school I attended as "indoctrination I agree with" so that made it ok to him. meanwhile he's ranting and raving about the dangers of CRT and how liberals are destroying everything with their propaganda, turns around and reads OAN

[@zaymlsspam]

@@qwertydog9795 similar story but with my mom

[@pickledragonrebel]

So true

[@Interdacted]

I went through the brainwashing religion classes in till i eventually left the school and started thinking these people are sort of drones. I didn't mean to think so but, i don't know what else to call groups of humans that: do, think, say, believe the same thing. It's like looking at one person and and another person and start not being able to tell them apart when they're in mass.

[@HylianFox3]

Exactly. Parents abusing their children doesn't make it okay because they're the parents. Abuse is abuse no matter who it comes from.

[@mallorylouise]

“Kids are human beings with complexity and each one is unique.” I’m not a parent. I love this statement! I’ve been thinking about this a lot re: the book bans and challenges happening all over the US. What if we treated kids like they were humans? What if we gave them some autonomy in their choices?

[@Axl4325]

And they also ban books that 100% shouldn´t have been banned. So many schools ban To Kill a Mockingbird because it contains a few racial slurs... the novel deals with racism and treats it like a stupid mindset in a really heartfelt and easy to understand way which would be perfect for kids

[@mallorylouise]

@@Axl4325 Context is key! I agree.

[@qwertydog9795]

the parents shouting about anal sex in the PTA meetings are worried about their kids learning to question what they have been taught at home. not about "indecent" books. I'm sure that there are many parents who are genuinely scared into believing that kids learning certain things in school is wrong, but for the majority of them, it seems like they're just afraid of not getting their way.

[@qwertydog9795]

@@Axl4325 it's funny cus I heard my (very conservative) dad complaining about this, which means I'm still very confused on if liberals or conservatives were the ones responsible for bans of that book in particular?

[@shadowpuppet8192]

I am a parent! And I live by this statement! My kids are not an extension of me or my husband. They are an extension of themselves with traits and habits that came from us.

[@LettaLeeJoy]

The difference between teaching your kids and indoctrinating them is one instills critical thinking skills while the other cripples them. They're literally opposites. And speaking from personal experience, the latter does a lot of damage to a person.

[@Darke_Exelbirth]

Them thinking kids are inherently bad and sinful isn't because that's the nature of kids, they're projecting the nature of their abusive mentality onto kids.

[@LukeNAndo]

I don't know how you pump out so much quality content on such a regular basis man. I can't imagine the work that goes into this channel but it really shows in the final product. Thanks for all the work you put in, Trevor.

[@PhoenixtheII]

God is infinite, so yea... Never run out of content to make. 👻

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@PhoenixtheII This video/channel is so damn-good, I'd argue it's the Nr.1 Atheist-Channel despite being so much smaller than Genetically Modified Sceptic. His Podcasts are not streeamlined (cause podcasts, duh) but it's a shame he has so few Subs, all leading me to this conclusion: We Atheists are scattered af and dont recommend each other enough. Do all here even know GMS, Viced Rhino, Hbomberguy, Creaky Blinder and Emma Thorne??

[@simcowgames981]

If this was only a podcast, I wouldn't be as impressed. But there's always a video going with it. So it's not just a guy talking, it's researched and clip hunting.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@simcowgames981 Yep, thats why i like his non-podcast-videos a lot. But yeah, i see why he's still relatively small, to be honest. Viced Rhino and Hbomberguy are honestly better. Know them?

[@Time_Is_Left]

@@loturzelrestaurant I sub or am familiar with the channels you listed except CB and ET,, I’ll check them out. Curious why you included Hbomberguy? Not a challenge he just isn’t directly in the atheist category. I know there is a lot of overlap between atheists and the left, is that what you had in mind? Harris is amazing, one of my favorites

[@dragowolfraven3806]

Even though she was a very religious person my grandmother never shoved her beliefs down my throat and always told me to think for myself. I was also encouraged to read other books aside from the Bible and I was taught the difference between fantasy and reality early in life. Thanks grandma😢😊

[@couchpotato2222]

I don't know what it is, but sometimes grandparents just have a connected understanding between their grandkids that parents seem to lack. Must be the kind of wisdom that comes with age and exp

[@cdogthehedgehog6923]

@@couchpotato2222 It's probably cuz grandparents usually don't have to see the kid every single day lmao

[@wayfa13]

@@couchpotato2222 man I really dunno if wisdom comes with age cuz old ppl get scammed the worst

[@trencher8715]

My religious grandma did this opposite of this and now I’m pretty sure my dad is a devil worshipper lol

[@pennyforyourthots]

That's how my grandmother is. She was a hardcore hippie that road with the Pagan biker gang back in the day, yet if you ask her she's a good Catholic lmao. It gives her some... Unique spiritual beliefs

[@kzloyd75]

During one of the clips, that guy from some Christian podcast (Jordan and Milena?) was talking about parents' responsibilities to insure their children follow the example they set for them at home. Watch that clip again (it's one of the earlier ones) and listen to just how close he comes to saying, "...while you live under our roof, you will do what we say and you WILL go to church, etc, etc....or else!" Fair enough. You made your point. It's not indoctrination, it's coersion with the threat of force for non-compliance. Well done, sir.

[@davehallam3894]

Yeah it seems they think indoctrination requires overt threats or explicit punishment to be present. The reality most indoctrination takes place subtly and though implicit threat. They fail to grasp the desire to fit in, or be accepted is a significant driver in most people's behaviour.

[@drago3036]

I was thinking exactly the same thing when i heard that guy talking.

[@zaymlsspam]

My mom is exactly like that. To the point where we were on a road trip and I talked about her and talk to her about not knowing if I want to get saved or not because I didn't know if I believed in the Christian God or not. She said when it came to not getting saved that is no child of mine. So about a week later I got saved. It's been 2 weeks and these have been the worst 2 weeks of my life. To the point where I before I was saved I thought was I was going to move out at 18, be a witch, be pagan, get gender affirming surgery, go to Pride parades, be happy, etc. But now I honestly don't know if I'm going to make it to my first day of high school and I start high school in the fall. If this is God I don't want it.

[@alaaalhejari3726]

I have heard a woman talking in a Muslim podcast talking about giving a safe space to discuss arguments about the religion for her kids and keep an open mind about it and I believe this is the right way to teach kids about their religion

[@paulcooper8818]

Christian math class: Q: Jesus has five loaves and two fish, how many followers can Jesus feed? A: The multitude

[@Interdacted]

12. Maybe 11 after Jesus resurrected, jk he would still feed Judas. XD

[@juniperrodley9843]

if he'd let me in the fucking brunch he'd only be feeding ONE

[@johnblunt5243]

the line at the end "raising christian children was the only way they would be a succesful parents" hit really damn hard for me.. I left my parents faith and while they're still very loving and supportive of me, especially my dad I can sometimes tell it effects my mom.. thanks for making this video

[@multi-milliondollarmike5127]

I told my parents I left the faith about 5 months ago and my mom was also hit the hardest. I just had to let them know though, because I couldn't stand the fact of pretending I was something I wasn't.

[@johnblunt5243]

@@multi-milliondollarmike5127 yeah, I've let my parents know that to.. but I've sure to remind them they still did a good job raising me.. it's what we can do to let them know they never failed..

[@ariannaw8932]

My grandma would “baptize” me every time I disagreed with her or questioned her. I was always questioning and eventually, I just distanced myself, i was allowed to make my own opinions by my mom from the start. And I will always appreciate that. She just said, be a good person and love everyone no matter how different.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

This video/channel is so damn-good, I'd argue it's the Nr.1 Atheist-Channel despite being so much smaller than Genetically Modified Sceptic. His Podcasts are not streeamlined (cause podcasts, duh) but it's a shame he has so few Subs, all leading me to this conclusion: We Atheists are scattered af and dont recommend each other enough. Do all here even know GMS, Viced Rhino, Hbomberguy, Creaky Blinder and Emma Thorne??

[@Gwestytears]

*waterboarded

[@aguy3953]

@@Gwestytears I saw a comment on a LWT video that called it " tactical baptism"

[@ariannaw8932]

@@Gwestytears LOL 😂 true

[@Valicroix]

It's the music. It doesn't matter what kind of music. Music activates areas of the brain. Even late stage Alzheimer’s patients react to music even if they're almost unresponsive to everything else. You have to wonder if these people talking about education have ever been in an actual classroom.

[@MelissaMayhem99]

There's an amazing video on that exact topic, I believe it may even be on this channel. It was such a good listen

[@iriscazilia5526]

I grew up in a Christian school, and it was one of the most degrading and traumatizing experiences in my life. If a teacher didn’t like your questions or thoughts (maybe too probing or secular), you’d be berated in front of the class. Evolution was an evil side effect of the worlds attack on creationism. And political views were VERY interlaced in the classroom, along with homophobia, islamophobia, and pretty harsh gender roles. It was incredibly toxic. Of course this is my personal experience at this one school, but it was exhausting and a huge chunk of my developing years - I didn’t even realize how messed up it was until I went to college (outside of that Christian environment) and started deconstructing.

[@aejones233]

YES!!!! i had to pretend to believe in things like creationism just to fit in-- because when i first came to the school, i was open about my beliefs and i was miserable. you worded this perfectly.

[@juststasia5823]

My childhood was very sheltered. I wasn’t aloud to watch anything but hermie and friends, veggietales, Bible man, and other Christian programs. From kindergarten to my senior year of high school I went to a private Christian school. My parents are pastors… so I was never aloud to skip church even if I was sick. Now I’m only 19 and I struggle with my sexuality because I’m not straight. I struggle with trauma from my childhood because I should just “honor and forgive my parents.” It’s been indoctrinated into me and escaping that process of thought is hard. Now my oldest brother has three sons and they are getting sheltered and taught like we were. There is no choice in these homes when you are young and sometimes when you grow up. I had no choice. I’m agnostic and I feel guilty about it because I feel like I should just believe in Christ. My parents have made me feel disappointed and lost because I’m not working in the ministry. A lot of these overwhelming feelings about my childhood and religion and the way my parents treated me after I was sexually assaulted because of their evangelical Christianity have caused suicidal thoughts, anxiety and depression and a lost sense of identity. Don’t push your beliefs on children. Don’t punish your children for pointing out hypocritical material in the Bible. Don’t punish your children for thinking for themselves. Also don’t send your kids to private Christian schools. There is favoritism, racism and sexual harassment and bullying. The education is subpar. I was sexually assaulted and harassed at my school and it was covered up. I was mistreated because of my bp and anxiety disorder. I was ostracized by people who used to be my friends when I came out to them. My school threatened to kick me out for speaking up about my assault. They kicked out our only two high school students who were people of color over false accusations. Our principal mistreatment my younger brothers best friend because he was black. Sorry about bad grammar and typos. I’m just putting this out there real quick.

[@Cellidor]

Just a note, when you talked about how "Evolution isn't just about survival of the fittest", I think there's a more important point to nail down here. People get this mistaken idea that "Survival of the fittest" = "Survival of the biggest, meanest, and strongest". When it comes to any species, 'Fittest' literally just means 'most fit to survive a given environment'. Being big mean and strong are NOT the only qualifying factors here. For colony or social species for example, their 'fitness' in an environment comes from the survivability they get from working together. If you have a social group that works together and one of those in the group causes harm to others in the group to the point of being ostracized from said group, then they are likely _not_ fit to survive. Put another way, it IS about survival of the fittest, people just need to understand that "Fit" means more than what many seem to _think_ it means.

[@ceicli]

I agree. The first example of evolution I read about (in school) was about moths that changed colour from white to black when the industrial pollutions made the bark darker. For some reason I didn't react so much to the pollution part until much later.

[@TheSpearkan]

It isn't even that. Ultimately it's just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks; Natural Selection doesn't pick the best tool for the job, just the one that works best. If we did have perfectly suited biology we'd have right-way-up eyes, digitigrade mammal feet and pelvises that don't torture women in labour.

[@Cellidor]

@@TheSpearkan Agreed. Some look at natural selection like it has some kind of intelligence, when it's really just a sieve. Anything big enough (detrimental enough) gets filtered out, but _anything_ small enough (net benefit/neutral effect/not detrimental _enough)_ slips right through.

[@kakizakichannel]

This is by far the most uncomfortable video in the series. It's like pulling a rotten tooth with no painkiller. It hurt to watch and listen. When I was being indoctrinated a recurring conversation with my abusive father where he said the unforgivable sin is "thou shalt not lead these little ones astray." These people are evil, almost every single clip you used put me on fight or flight mode. Keep putting this out, may you grow large and let the people see this.

[@Boris99999]

The difference between teaching and indoctrination could be easily seen on one example: Teaching a child that stealing is bad because it damages well-being of others and as a result will damage their own well-being vs indoctrinating a child that stealing is wrong because god thinks it is wrong and will throw all the people that have stolen things during their lifetime on earth into a pit of fire. What is a more sensible thing to do? Which of these two explanations will stay true irrelevant to what beliefs a person has?

[@radiorebel8223]

I’m an atheist) not to rain on that example but it falls through when you throw it into the Christian worldview, for them, if youre not teaching the gospel and converting, then you are subjecting others to that eternal harm, and if your not worshiping it personally you are subjecting yourself to that eternal harm. What you need to target is how we verify that the concern of harm can be reasonably demonstrated.

[@fuglong]

Religion is really just for people who are intellectually lazy stg. They can't or don't want to explain or understand how things work so they just accept an easy magical answer

[@Boris99999]

@@radiorebel8223 Not necessarily. You see some Christians believe that people that didn’t hear “the good news” won’t go to hell for not knowing about Jesus.

[@EHyde-ir9gb]

I think what makes indoctrination is only telling them one or the other and denying them the option to explore either. Indoctrination is teaching them that the way they are taught is the only way.

[@Boris99999]

@@EHyde-ir9gb Facts don’t leave us any choices. 2+2 equals 4 no matter if you “indoctrinate” this idea or “teach” this idea. The difference is not in choices but in reasoning. Telling a child “2+2 equals 4 because god said so” - would be indoctrination, telling a child “2+2 equals 4 because due to math postulates that were assumed by people out of convenience” would be teaching. The fact didn’t change, the reasoning did…

[@dragoncatoverload]

Let me put it this way, it’s one thing for a parent to be a violinist and for their children to hear violin music everyday. It’s another for the parent to force their child to play violin.

[@jessiek3500]

Great analogy

[@nahdeshiko]

My dad is a pastor so I grew up in the church, and I agree that I was absolutely indoctrinated. I didn't go to college until my late 30s, but I'm glad that I did, as I learned critical thinking. This newly learned skill allowed me to really dig into my beliefs and see religion for what it actually is. I did also send my kids to christian school, but I guess my kids are smarter than me and thankfully didn't allow themselves to get indoctrinated. I find it much easier to parent now that our focus is to raise good kids. Teaching my kids to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes, seeing different perspectives, and the effects of their actions and behavior, is 1000x better than just saying "because god said so".

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

I levied this charge of indoctrination to a friend of mine and he said exactly what the podcaster at 7:50 said, " all parents indoctrinate their children, anything that children are taught is fundamentally indoctrination" to which my reply is, "this is a blatant false equivalence." Indoctrination is different in attitude, methods, purpose, intensity, scope etc than just plain education

[@jhmejia]

Definitely one of the nice parts of not being religious, You can let your child explore religion on their own, and allow them to come to their own conclusion

[@shaydowsith348]

In our culture this would definately put them at a disadvantage however. My parents were liberal about religion and hence I didn't get the knowledge I would have gained in Hebrew school. I went to public school. I always wished I would have received a better Jewish education when young.

[@jhmejia]

@@shaydowsith348 yep I mean it would be dumb to not teach them *anything*

[@theboombody]

I'll bet some non-religious people would be pretty upset if their child turned out to be religious later on in life.

[@jhmejia]

@@theboombody oh yeah for sure! I’d be upset too personally, but at least There’s no hell..

[@bradypustridactylus488]

Where I draw the line is when parental obligations for nurture, affection, and provision take second priority to religious beliefs. When parents abandon and injure their children who are gay, atheist, or believers in an alternative religion, they are not responsible citizens or parents. Extortion is the grim subtext of the apologists' defense of "indoctrination" and "brainwashing."

[@SamanthaManning-xy8fu]

And God knows what happens to the daughters who have unprotected sex or get pregnant from SA. It’s not Jesus that’s the issue. It’s the fact that children’s welfare are compromised the minute they don’t live in perfect accordance with their parents’ beliefs. You have people in the comments saying they thought they had cancer when their body was just going through puberty because Christian’s didn’t believe in sex education. If Christians were just all about how they believed in Heaven and left out all the anti human welfare propaganda then that would be nicer!

[@lonewolfgamingplus379]

When they said "You're not born Christian, you were born sinful", my transgenerational trauma kicked in.. that hurts me so much because as a native person, those words echo previous generations of Christians saying that to those kids who went through indoctrination prison camps known as Residential Schools. 27:06- This entire clip made me cry laughing 😭 😂

[@Morrislover.they.xem.]

I’m so sorry it brought back some trauma for you

[@malcormwalker8176]

My jaw was spontaneously dropped so long to her altering those words to the extend that, I drooled all over myself like tranquilised bull and couldn't even be bothered about it. I was that shocked as to how a young and modern looking lady as herslf couldn't just think and or believe such a thing, but would even go as far as to altering them out loud. My jaws are even dropped right now simply imagining her saying that again.

[@magsp5496]

I grew up Baptist, and I still live in that same household, and let me tell you I absolutely was indoctrinated into "the way of God" as a child, told that he would solve my problems. My dad got my mom to be more religious, and he didn't even have to try with me and my sister because it was all we knew from day one. It was Sunday service every week, singing to little children for volunteer work, going to a week-long camp every year with people who didn't even like me, and I thought I was happy until I realized very forcefully that I wasn't. The thing is, being told that your talents are a gift from God and not a product of passion and hard work that you put in yourself, being raised to believe that you were made as a woman to pop out more children just like the ones your parents supposedly raised, it does a lot to your mental health. When I struggled to function normally - at the time, my ADHD and bipolar were undiagnosed - I felt like a failure, and most of all like God abandoned me because I just didn't know him well enough. When I didn't look at boys or thought about preferring adoption to hetero-sex, I felt like I was failing my parents. All of that still hurts today, I'm still working on undoing all that damage, and it could have been so much more easily prevented if I just...hadn't been so convinced that God and the will of his people (church leadership that knew nothing about people like me) were the only way. And I'm still scared of failing other people, even if God has barely anything to do with it anymore. It happens to so many people because of the exact way of thinking that many Christians have. It should be different.

[@donharris8846]

Speaking to the argument that we “don’t teach kids to lie” at 13:25, this is because we avoid pain and seek pleasure by nature, we favor survival. Since we are born as thinking animals, we learn that lying can help us to avoid the “pain” of discipline from parents. Funny they didn’t mention how newborn babies cling to their mothers. Is this “love” from a newborn, no, it is survival (avoiding the danger of hunger and isolation). Survival drives our behavior as babies and kids.

[@lacigold6627]

Wow this made me so mad. I’m ex Mormon and they have a pretty serious indoctrination tactic. We had testimony meetings every month and that is when anyone could go and share their thoughts on why they love the church or whatever. The most sad and horrifying thing about it is when a kid goes up with their parent and has the parent whisper into the kids ear everything they say. I found it cute when I was apart of the church. But went I went after I left, I found it horrifyingly cutly.

[@chaserose5127]

This is one of those issues that point out one of the major problems with Christian brainwashing. The parents have also been indoctrinated. They believe that their child will burn for eternity if they don't believe, and from what little I understand about parenting, I know that something like that could only bring agony and the most intense of dread to a parent. The problem with the concept of Hell is that it makes people do bad things without question because they think if they don't do them, or they do question, then they'll receive the worst kind of punishment imaginable. I know, I used to be one of those people.

[@PhoenixtheII]

Then why even put a child on this world? But still do it, Horrible parents...

[@trencher8715]

If Christianity was the truest truth, simply teaching your kids critical thinking skills should be enough for them to become Christian, but that’s clearly not the case. The Christian frame of mind truly baffles me

[@homosexualitymydearwatson4109]

Gonna use my child self in highschool as an example, I desperately tried converting my friend because I was fearful they’d perish for eternity. I don’t think parents indoctrinate their kids with malicious intent, it’s not until they control them and are anti free thinking that it becomes malicious. When you believe wholeheartedly that a terrible place exists you don’t want to see the ones you love end up there. For reference once as a child I also cried and prayed to god that my dog would go to heaven when she died.

[@homosexualitymydearwatson4109]

Also some of them are weak in their faith where they have to make sure you don’t doubt because then it puts their own faith into question.

[@wilberwhateley7569]

@@PhoenixtheII Because their belief system commands them to - they must “be fruitful and multiply” to advance their religion. It’s not a rational worldview because it’s not based in reason: it’s based in obedience to arbitrary rules that you’re not allowed to question.

[@thepianoman808]

I was born and raised as Christian. Been in the church as long as I can remember. I am now currently questioning my faith and starting to have doubts. I think the most struggle for departing from Christianity is that my entire belief system and identity is tied to it. I believe what I believe because I was grown up to believe it. And now I’m so lost and a bit scared to step away from it.

[@denise9570]

i hope you are feeling alright, take it step by step and believe what you want to (not what others want you to) :)

[@multi-milliondollarmike5127]

I know exactly how that feels because a year ago I was in the same kind of situation. What got me to leave was the fact that there were too many interpretations for what it meant to he 'saved', by Jesus. That meant that nobody could really 'know' they were saved and there was still the possibility of certain denominational groups going to hell. For me that was just the last straw and I finally started taking a critical look at it. Even while I was doing this, it took months for me to get over the fear of hell, but it's possible. When I found out just how many other religions had a hell it made me realize it was more of a marketing thing to keep believers in the faith.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

You might try calling the folks at Recovering From Religion. They’re nonjudgmental and will meet you where you’re at, and have a lot of resources. Wherever you end up in your journey, I hope you see that you’re a good person.

[@kevinchavarria6792]

I feel that the gnostic texts reflect the real teachings of Jesus, I suggest to read the gospels of Thomas, they were never added because it would take the power away from the Catholic church, the Christ is in us, carrying the cross means suffering and beating dualism through compassion and love towards others that's the example we should follow. Here's a bit to think about Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All. Jesus said: The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (and) have hidden them. They did not go in, and those who wished to go in they did not allow. But you, be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

The main issues is that they don’t teach those kids to have critical thinking. They shield those “teachings” from criticism.

[@bazookallamaproductions5280]

isnt "original sin" just "collective punishment"? it literally punishes the wrong person for the actions of another person.

[@magnatcleo2043]

It's not just punishing the wrong person. It's punishing all of the wrong people, past, present, and future. But what could one expect from a horrid god that, apparently, seems to think that the right thing to do when some kids are making fun of some random guy, is to send bears to tear them all to shreds.

[@generatoralignmentdevalue]

Yeah he's mainly the god of war crimes. And sometimes weather. Mostly warcrimes.

[@zaymlsspam]

@@generatoralignmentdevalue honestly

[@theboombody]

@@magnatcleo2043 Fair or not, got to show respect to those that deserve it. We don't tell kids to do that anymore and that's why teachers quit.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

@@generatoralignmentdevalue Weather manipulation is also a violation of international law.

[@jared_really]

“Don’t teach your children morality or how to be good. Teach your kids the gospel.” (Paraphrased) Literally the dumbest thing anyone has ever said straight faced.

[@ladyhoratia1709]

Trevor just dropping a face reveal out of nowhere. what a power movie

[@doloreslehmann8628]

Thank you so much for this video! Especially the very balanced way you presented not only the indeed very creepy examples of "Christian" education, but also the background that pushes people to act like that, believing it's the right thing to do for their kids. I myself am a heterodox Christian and mother to three adorable girls. The very idea that someone could tell them they're inherently bad, broken or sinful scares me beyond description. The very idea that they would deserve hell just because of their sheer existence is a perverse lie I hope they don't ever get to hear. Now, when they ask me, I tell them about my faith. I also offered them to pray with them in case they wanted, but never pushed them to do so. I remember when my oldest was little, we used to make a "prayer tent" - an idea she had come up with. At bedtime, we would put her covers over both of us, take each other's hands and pray together. I cherish this memory. The same daughter, now 13, has recently told me that she doesn't believe in God anymore. I replied: "That's OK, it's an evolution. My own faith has also changed a lot over time. If that's what you think and feel right now, I'm fine with it. Maybe you'll change your opinion again, maybe you won't, we'll see. Don't ever be afraid to share your true thoughts with me." Let's be honest, if you stop loving your child because they don't believe the same you do, you never loved them in the first place.

[@crunchylettuce5446]

I was raised in an environment where my parents were very open about all information concerning all religions and philosophies they knew of. I was the kid raised without any presupposition about religion and how good or bad certain kinds were. My parents made sure of that and they did it well. When I was younger I believed in reincarnation and a kind of "soul-cycling" belief that came with it. When I was a preteen, I believed in spirits and the ability for anyone to see and interact with them if they were sensitive enough. A few years ago I had a Tarot phase and the readings genuinely made me feel more prepared for times to come. I've meditated both spiritually and non-spiritually, and an existential crisis (mixed with a (not, obviously)healthy dose of self-hate) nearly ended my life in middle school. After all of this, I DO believe one can have spiritual experiences. I DO believe they can provide good benefits. And from personal experience, I KNOW I turned out as a better person without anybody telling me what to think and believe as my mind was only beginning to develop. I know how important it is to have your mind to yourself at a young age. That is why I view indoctrination as absolutely abhorrent and only excusable through ignorance. The disgusting thing about most christian fundies is that they KNOW what they are doing and refuse to believe that it could ever hurt while knowing in full how much it can change their child's life.

[@crunchylettuce5446]

Oh and for anyone that wants to point at the existential crisis and say that was because I didn't have God in my life or whatever horseshit you're preparing to spew, it only got bad because I didn't share it with anyone. People thought my genuine depression was just teenage moodiness and that nobody as young as me could think so deep. I figured I'd just be invalidated if I talked to anyone about it, and so it just got worse. And I also had a whole lot of unresolved self-hate and self-xenophobia because I have been ND all my life but had nobody explain to me the concepts around it all my life. Probably because I didn't ask because I didn't know it existed because my white christian-leaning urban school didn't want to talk about it. That was kinda the rule with information in my house. If I wanted to know something, I asked about it and then my parents responded honestly and intelligently.

[@crunchylettuce5446]

(Also the self-xenophobia didn't help the fact I was clearly queer.)

[@ZephyrusAsmodeus]

As usual, the absolute void that is their lack of self awareness astounds me

[@wayfa13]

it's conditioned into them, and everyone around them behaves the same way, so there's generally no need for them to develop that self awareness. if you don't act the same way, you're kicked from the tribe, and people want to belong.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

My parents didn't raise me with any kind of religion. I just got a vauge "some people believe x, some people believe y" talk when I asked a question religion typically answers. It was infuriating as a child but I am so glad they did and if I ever have kids that's what i wish to do.

[@shypenguin9766]

An atheist who looks…normal!?!? Nonononono… the scriptures must justify this somehow…

[@Monomiknose]

This has caused so much stress in my life. The prospect of hell being the result of almost every other action gave me anxiety. It colored my entire way of thinking growing up, even though I don't believe it that still effects me. Additionally, I had been taught from day one that if I was a good christian I'd get to go to heaven, and that being scared of death was a sin so not to even think about it further than that. This lead to my first anxiety attack where after years of ignoring this integral part of life, I had to come to terms with not knowing what comes after. I'm still anxious to this day, and though I've almost gotten over it, I'd get weird pangs of guilt out of nowhere for years.

[@cindys9491]

Bingo. I grew up with anxiety and depression too, a lot of which was fear of other people going to hell "if I didn't tell them." But then they say worry is a sin. Catch-22. I'm glad I didn't stay in that level of false responsibility.

[@memequeen847]

My parents raised me as a Christian, and I was very devout to the religion for a huge portion of my life. When I was around 16, I began to suffer from depression, as I was homeschooled, and therefore had no friends or connections outside of family, and I was told to pray my depression away, and that I only needed God and family to help me get through it. What actually helped me through it was establishing a supportive friend group, and obtaining a boyfriend who loved me for the person I was, instead of the person I could be through God. Even when I stopped believing, I didn't say anything to my parents, and let them assume that I was still a faithful and devout Christian, even though I was already exploring other things. When my mother learned, she immediately accused me of being full of demons, and told me that was why I couldn't stand to be in the same room with her while she listened to preachers and sermons, when in reality, everything they said just rubbed me wrong morally. When I finally moved out and abandoned the Christian way of thinking, my mental state stabilized, and while my self esteem is still a little shaky sometimes, it's so much better than it used to be. Having people around that love you for more than the God they think is "moving in you" is amazing.

[@melissarae4341]

My husband and I just had our daughter 3 months ago. We both were raised Catholic, but in my early 20’s I questioned everything and no longer follow that faith. However, my mom is the only one who knows about this. I have kept this lie from my husband’s side of the family because they would chew me out or some would disown me. Now that we have a child, family has been asking us when are we getting her baptized, “she should go to an evangelical school,” and “you guys really need to join a church.” I just don’t respond or switch subjects, but I am getting nervous because I don’t want to raise her like that and I feel his side of the family is going to eventually force it when they realize we are doing thing much different.

[@drot13]

I'm sorry to hear that. My wife is a Catholic, and I'm an atheist, but she doesn't know that. Faith is important part of her life and she she respect that I'm not like that, but she just thinks that I'm a Catholic who doesn't practise faith. We have a little girl and she is taking her to the church, and I don't know when and how to step in. She is gentle and not judgemental, but I fear that this wouldn't be allways like that. I adore my wife and daughter, but I know that we would soon have to talk about that, and I'm afraid that it won't be nice... All of the family and friends, on my wife side, are devote to faith, and many of them would not understand my stance on that. They would rather judge, i've seen them doing so...

[@choronos]

How much of a problem is it if you just don't see those people anymore? You and your husband are adults. If his family can't handle how you choose to live, then that's their problem. As long as you and your husband are unified in your vision of how your daughter should be raised, then you're golden. Get disowned by those family members. Slam the door in the faces of the ones that want to chew you out. You don't need them. You have your own family now.

[@lunarrobot9714]

@@drot13 I'm gonna sound harsh with this, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding the situation you're in, but... WHY ON EARTH didn't you tell her BEFORE you got married?! Why would you keep that a secret from your partner till after you have a kid?! Now you have no idea if that was a deal-breaker for her! And if it was, she'll think you lied to her just so you could marry her and get her pregnant! There is no right time to step in, because you wouldn't HAVE to step in at all if you were openly clear to her about your beliefs from the begining. You two aren't on the same page morally and now your daughter is likely going to suffer a moral tug of war between you because you waited this long. Step in NOW. the longer you wait, the worse it will be. TELL YOUR WIFE. You have to have that hard talk with her that you're an athiest. I don't care how uncomfortable that sounds. If you don't want to because you're scared of it "not being nice" or "being judged" you're gambling with your daughters life now. What if she becomes athiest like you? Do you want her to feel how you feel right now? That she has to pretend to be someone else and keep quiet about what she believes or her family will shun her? And who cares if the wifes family shuns you? If they bully you, your wife or your kid for their beliefs or supporting yours, cut them out. If your wife loves you she'll understand and do what's best for you and your daughter. They aren't really your family if they're treating you that way. And if your wife wants to leave you because you're an athiest, then she cares about her religion more than she cares about you. And that should tell you all you need to know. Now you don't have to take my advice, but not doing anything and lying to her and her family for the rest of your life seems to be your only other option.

[@j.kaimori3848]

If you must compromise, do a baby dedication - that the parents will teach the kid about God etc., go to a progressive church, but do not send the kid to an evangelical school. If your child accepts others then that they go to church won't make them an outcast at a public school, trying to preach to other kids will though.

[@drot13]

@@lunarrobot9714 I wasn't an atheist when we married (16 years ago), and we know each other almost all life (we lived in same neighbourhood, went to the same school). I was Catholic, although I didn't go to church often, I believed in god, prayed, etc. (in our state, we are over 80% Catholic, but most don't go to church). During this years, I changed. It wasn't an overnight decision, it took many years, but now I don't believe and never ever will. Her faith is the same. Her familiy is very religious, and she has many problems from childhood (her father is a fundamentalist and he raised his daughters like they are not worth as their brothers), but she finds solace in faith. I am not lying her about my stance, she knows how I stand on abortion, contraception, divorce, gay rights, women rights and other Catholic dogma (that was always my opinion, she knew this from the start), but she doesn't know the baseline, that I don't believe. She has no problem that we raise our daugther openminded, although there will be some problems surely. Regarding the family, you are absulutely correct, but as they are Catholics, they are prone to guilt, shaming and blaming (we have experienced that when we had small wedding and small christening), so I'm sure that if I came out, she will be blamed and, because of that, blame herself...

[@P-P-Panda]

I was a kid raised to be Christian and not think otherwise. After a long journey with myself and personal growth, I am now Agnostic-atheist ✌️ dont force your religions on your kids people, that shit is traumatizing. Stay safe everyone💖

[@qwertydog9795]

I'm in almost the same boat. I was homeschooled in the early 2000s with Abeka books and my mom loved Focus on the Family. 💀 I'm still not sure yet how I feel about the god question because I think no one can really know for certain, but it seems the arguments in defense of Christianity are wobbly at best, and straight up ghoulish at worst.

[@P-P-Panda]

@@qwertydog9795 DUDE I WAS HOMESCHOOLED AND HAD THOSE BOOKS TOO OMG😭 My dad thought public schools were the Devil. And we’d have family devotion time. I wish you good luck! Whether you’re a questioning Christian, agnostic, atheist or any other decision. 🙏there is no need to rush. It took me a couple years to come to terms with where I am today.

[@qwertydog9795]

@@P-P-Panda I'm still in that "wow, the arguments for God's existence are so logically inconsistent, how is Christian apologetics still alive" moment. I still have several Christian and conservative books and I keep them because I think it's helpful to be reminded how far I've come. also, we should totally be friends lol 😆

[@P-P-Panda]

@@qwertydog9795 Oh yeah I definitely know what you mean! 😅I still find myself getting surprised at the things they say. I actually kept my cross necklace because of that reason. And sure! ^^ I have an Instagram and discord acc. Whichever works

[@ddjsoyenby]

agreed i still struggle and haven't recovered and probaly never will.

[@nicolem9665]

Your channel has helped my fiance start to break away from his severely controlled religious upbringing, thank you so much for making these videos 🙏 King behavior

[@Pfpfpfpfpf2020]

Good luck to you both!

[@harrypothead42024]

Indoctrination is when you program your child what to think. Teaching is when you show somebody how to think.

[@rayafoxr3]

The fact children are taught on a wide scale that there’s a chance they’ll be tortured FOREVER is so sad to me. I wasn’t even raised by super Christian parents and I love my parents, but I still have extreme fear over the idea still. It traumatizes a lot of people because OF COURSE it does! Even if you have reasonable moderate Christians as your parents, being told you may be tortured forever is still horrible to hear. It’s just. So sad.

[@xalaxie]

as a parent who found themselves suddenly outside the faith camp while my kids were still small, I feel like I could write an essay on that experience. one thing I did was read them myths and legends from every tradition and culture I could get my hands on. it didn't take long for them to arrive at their own conclusions without me having to tell them what to think. the other hilarious part of the Christian paranoia is that "the culture" actually still pressures most kids in public school to conform to some flavour of Christianity because that is what so many of their peers believe.

[@dirtydish6642]

"Stand your ground with as much love as you can." Simply profound. I needed this. I've been wrestling with how to (if at all) open communication with my father since I've had my kids of my own. For me, the above advice will be a fundamental guideline in attempting to see if there is still a relationship worth salvaging between us, to include his grandkids.

[@AvalancheCleo]

These people piss me off. Justifying indoctrinating their children with the same hate is disgusting.

[@toni4729]

Have you ever noticed how Satan never got to say a single word in the Bible? He, if he is what he is can't defend himself even if God exists. God could have lied through his teeth about Satan and Satan hasn't got a leg to stand on.

[@softiejace]

i always forget that so many christians' ONLY motivation to do good is getting into heaven, and that's why they project that onto everyone else and can't imagine atheists have morals. it explains so much 💀

[@johannesmuller4208]

This essay made me call my parents just to thank them for raising me the way they did. Shure, I was baptized as an infant, I went to a protestant Kindergarten and took part in most youth church activities but I was also able and even encouraged to question the things we were told during that time. My heart goes out to everybody suffering under religious dogmatism right now.

[@morgiemango6242]

It annoys my parents when i criticize the church, especially my mom and step dad. Well im sorry that I have been extremely traumatized by the catholic church and no longer wish to attend/call myself catholic.

[@Reevay762]

Had same experience too. I no longer wanna be called Christian too.

[@axinomancer9114]

I was raised Mormon. My parents never forced me to be Mormon, there was always a sense of choice, if I didn’t want to go to church they let me. But every night we would sit down and read the Book of Mormon together, and I would see the stories about sinners being terrible people because they did one wrong thing. If I did anything that could even remotely be considered a sin I would tear myself up over it for weeks. It doesn’t matter if you give your kid an option to believe or not, they will believe what you believe because you’re the most important person in their life, and it can and will fuck them up.

[@Interdacted]

Woah Mormon, don't they not use technology and have this thing at 18 where you get to explore the outside world and decide for yourself if you want to still be apart of the faith ?

[@smears6039]

@@Interdacted that’s Mennonite, more of a lifestyle than a religion, although fundamentalist Christianity is pretty widespread throughout the community. Mormonism is a branch of Christianity, the one in Utah that was made up by a guy who just wanted to have a ton a wives. South Park made an episode on it

[@kennedyb.gayming9954]

Im so glad my parents weren’t the abrasive christian types when I stopped believing in god. They raised me to be an ideal mormon son and now I am an atheist trans woman lol

[@bigskypioneer1898]

A _true_ teacher gives their student a choice when it comes to making the subject matter their own, or not. Their goal is to provide information and let the student figure it out for themselves and "make it their own" - whether it is History, Quantum Physics or Kung Fu. Indoctrination doesn't give the participants the choice to believe what is being "taught" or not. Belief that 100% mirrors the "teacher" is expected and basically pushed.

[@bonificent76]

My mom blames her failing as a Christian mother for me not being Christian and she blames the Christian school I went to after high school for destroying my faith. The reality was that I lost my faith when I was 8 and asked her and our pastor if I could loose my salvation if I sinned. Neither gave me a serious answer and that started 15 years of wishing I hadn’t been brainwashed to believe all of these crazy awful things.

[@mattjohnston2]

I don't often pause the video to comment, usually I wait until the end, but at about the 15 minute mark when she said no kid wants to do good, I think I physically felt a nerve get frayed 😖 As a father of 2, I can say with authority she's so wrong!

[@timecube6616]

if indoctrinating children is inevitable the you should indoctrinate them think critically and consider the body of evidence before forming an opinion or belief. instead of theres a magic man in the sky

[@chellefell1331]

it not even about the man on the sky. it is alllll the other things that come with it. i would not mind if my son believed in god. however, i get sickened by their "rules" and teachings, for lack of better words.

[@choronos]

@@chellefell1331 The word you want is dogma.

[@jaynajuly2140]

"The opposite of brainwashing isn't educating children to think critically, no, it's just brainwashing in a different direction! I am very smart."

[@kjmav10135]

So agree on the discounting of “just being a good person.” I have one evangelical friend left, and he keeps saying that Christianity without substitutionary atonement means nothing, because then it’s merely about “just being good, and that’s it! So, what’s the point?” Why isn’t “just being good” the exact point? I think that’s a terrific point. If being a good person were the point of any spirituality, the world would be a much better place. And, frankly, that’s how I read the stories about Jesus. Just a guy trying to be a good guy. Trying to be open to others. Trying to look out for the poor,for women, for lepers. And then we pile up all this crazy miracle shit on these stories of being good-the walking on water, resurrecting malarkey, blah blah blah. Because, in the Christian’s warped mind, there’s nothing spectacular about simple goodness. But, really, stripped down, acts of simple goodness are where the stories of Jesus really shine. Being good is the miracle. Not that magic show circus crap.

[@mrmoment6061]

he'd freak out if asked to see people as an end instead of a means. christian philosophy "whats the point of being a good person?"

[@mintybadger6905]

30 seconds in, I already have so much to say. Babies dance to any music. I know mine really loved the Nationwide is on your side jingle.

[@shaydowsith348]

My 3 sons danced to Star Wars and Star Trek music when they were babies. Did they grow up to become Darth Vader or Klingons? Nope.

[@Fuggo55]

I had no idea Trevor was so handsome. Show us your face more often, handsome man!

[@BeliefItOrNot]

awe shucks

[@princessolmeca2933]

After watching this, I understand more why Seth Andrews and Owen of Telltale cut off communication with their parents. As fully grown adults with their own lives and their own thoughts, they couldn't break through the walls they'd built separating them from each other. No matter how hard they tried, no matter how desperately they fought, for how long they endured, religion was the immovable obstacle that exhausted their efforts. They wanted their parents' love but, they couldn't have it because religion poisoned them. They gave up. And I completely understand why. They're just two examples of people who broke their way out of the indoctrination as kids. Many kids don't. Many children never get to think about things that don't circle back to the religion their parents believe. As a result, they're scared to face reality and are sheltered in so many ways. It's incredibly sad. Everybody was a child once. How you were raised and what you were surrounded with it so important and vital. They deserve to be free, happy, and able to think for themselves, not have anybody think for them, especially not a god that doesn't exist.

[@samgfds1755]

Hearing those people saying that raising good people is not their primary goal, but raising christians is, makes a lot of things make sense to me now It never mattered to my parents how good my grades were, how professionally successful I am, how often I visit my grandparents and keep them honest company, how much I am happy or how good and long lasting of a relationship I have And it never will I will always be a failure if I'm not christian

[@pleiades.puppets]

Same with my family. Hope you're doing good.

[@twanfox]

16:00 "We're not forcing our children... but as long as you are in our house, and as long as you are under care and our supervision..." and you hear him struggle not to default to the 'You WILL' command that upset parents often use following that phrase. The phrase he choses isn't much better 'We are going to..' which IS an assertive statement and not something softer like 'I will offer you the opportunity to learn with us..'. It also doesn't contain the 'or else' threat statement afterwards, but one rarely needs to say it to understand, especially as a kid, that defying a parent is going to bring a punishment. I can say that it was a struggle when I was a child to even reflect on my faith in a way that wasn't going to upset my mother. The answer of simple disinterest in the prospect of going to church wasn't sufficient to be allowed the authority to decide for myself after being raised in faith. It was only after effectively hiding from the problem, then moving out, that finally enabled me to live my life as I wanted. To this day, it's just something we don't discuss and, on holidays, we opt to attend for her, if only to be social and polite. Not forced? I'm sorry, force takes many forms, not just physical violence.

[@Lenci_the_Nugget]

I absolutely love it that you included the study about the moral life of babies. I am an ex Christian and I was floored when I learned that in school for my psychology major.