What actually is the Overground, and why?

[@drzander3378]

One train every 17 years? Wish the trains round my way were that frequent!

[@toowindytoskydive]

17 years....luxury....when I was a lad I had to build the track, invent steam locos and wait 750m years for trees to turn into coal before I could dream of a train turning up! Youth of today....would never believe it!

[@simontay4851]

Sound like the 4 yorkshire men sketch.

[@Northstander]

@@simontay4851 Sounds more like Stevenson has risen from the grave!

[@eddyharris2372]

At least your line survived the Beeching axe from being so busy.

[@theexcaliburone5933]

people in America

[@LordHat6030]

Paradise!

[@spottymaxy1628]

"You can experience the fantastical adventure of driving Flying Scostsman without going bankrupt. " That caught me off guard 😂

[@MichaelCampin]

When I've played this game ive crashed more times than not especially in the Tokyo version

[@itsgood2slide]

One might argue that it depends how much of the DLC you end up buying…

[@Transport11233]

….

[@CarolineFord1]

They’ve done an interesting tie up with LNER. Saw a video LNER had made of one of their drivers playing the game driving her train! It’s good marketing

[@enisra_bowman]

@@itsgood2slide well, no i would more argue that all that use that "joke" of how expensive Dovetails Trainsim is never looked a bit into it ... or other Sims like DCS Flight Sim, since well, the thing is: they are all expensive if you go to the "buy all" but nobody does that since that takes years to complete. And it's not that it's like a Sims Addon where you might miss something out and also cost a lot ... but also don't need everything ... and don't buy it when it's not on sale every few months

[@cmw3737]

I do love it when a KZbin video gets a sponsor that engages nicely with the main line of the content.

[@CookieCookGames]

The overground is to insure the wombles can continue to womble freely

[@apolloc.vermouth5672]

Ah, but so is the underground.....

[@Sigira0]

But, but … the overground doesn’t go to Wimbledon (yet) 😉

[@wwerules000]

​@Sigira0 don't know if that's planned either, they would have to ask southwest and the District line. Only thing I've heard of is that new line cross country that's meant to include wimbledon

[@theenigmaticst7572]

Darn. I was just about to write that!

[@rjjcms1]

How much does it cost to insure a womble?

[@Quasihamster]

It's national rail, but in the city. It's the Purple Line, but orange. It's the Underground, but Overground.

[@NeilBlenkiron]

It's the Wombles without Wimbledon Common.

[@mittfh]

​@@NeilBlenkironI think Wimbledon has a NR line that's not Thameslink - if only it could be added to the Overground network (perhaps with a statue of a Womble on the concourse, next to a recycling bin?)

[@DavidShepheard]

It's not all National Rail in the city - it should be though.

[@Gfynbcyiokbg8710]

​@@DavidShepheard The overground is all national rail, in the city

[@Ashley_van_Schooneveld]

It's a hybrid operation managed by TfL that's part of the National Rail system

[@johnburns4017]

The Overground is: *1)* a merging of separate lines into one urban railway, under one branding and administration. *2)* It has its own _lines._ *3)* The Overground is underground and overground as is the London Underground. *4)* Many Underground and Overground lines cross each other. They need interchange stations at many of these points. *5)* The tickets are seamless with London Underground.

[@kabongpope]

Was very happy to have the Overground as an option last October when the Central Line went down for a bit right as I was trying to get out to Stratford. By the time I was leaving, the Central was back up and the drivers were absolutely gunning it! 😂

[@ricequackers]

I wish Manchester was also able to take over its suburban railway services and improve them the way London did with the Overground. A long time ago I lived in suburban Manchester along the Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester line. Peak time frequency was two trains per hour, one per hour off-peak. If you were lucky a Class 156 or 150 Sprinter showed up, if not you got (ugh) a Pacer. If you were really unlucky the train would be cancelled about 10 minutes before it was due to arrive, and the train after that wouldn't have space for you to get on anyway. So you'd swear off the trains, take your car instead and pay for unreasonably expensive parking.

[@AJSAN1971]

"London Transport" died in 1984, the organisation that morphed into TfL was London Regional Transport which had replaced the sainted LT. Absolutely love your content, keep up the good work.

[@Jerrymouse79]

Love the fact that Dovetail approached you to sponsor this video. Great game. I was slightly surprised that you didn’t mention that you can drive the Bakerloo line in the game. It came out on TSW3 but all the older add ons are compatible with the new version.

[@christian1294]

In the 90s the commuter lines were often referred to informally as the overland/overground

[@aviewfromtheinterior]

I used to live on the NLL, at Highbury, Dalston and Homerton in 1998-99. I remember the Silverlink trains with a weird nostalgia despite the fact they were always full, late, cancelled and slow.

[@driver288]

I’m coming to London! Of course being a train geek an avgeek and bus geek as well as a former bus and underground driver in Stockholm I also play TSW4 and particularly the Bakerloo and now the Suffragrette line add one 😁. I’m going to London and Bournemouth this summer. My 9th visit to the UK if I’m not mistaken. Looking forward to riding the underground again and trains. Last time in the early 2000s I rode slam door trains from Bracknell to London. Looking forward to more modern rolling stock 😂

[@norbitonflyer5625]

Interesting you mention the SW lines. Boris Johnson, as mayor, had been keen to take them over at franchise renewal, but got resistance from the MP for Epsom (just outside Greater London, but the end of a SWT (now SWR) commuter line) who didn't like the idea of his constitiuents' commutes coming under the control of a future Labour Mayor. That MP was Chris Grayling - the then Transport Secretary

[@nickchambers3935]

Come to think of it, it does seem like a conflict of interest that ministers are also MPs. You can’t really make decisions on behalf of the whole country while also representing one particular part of it.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

@@nickchambers3935 They are supposed to let another minister (usually a more junior or senior minister in their own department) take such decisions.

[@geoffreyplow3811]

Which sums Grayling up.

[@ks2091]

Ahh classic, the Tories in Epsom and Ewell in denial that they are in London. They were in denial in the 1960s when they refused to be included within the boundaries of Greater London by lying that the borough was "free from the features which are characteristic of suburban areas" when that was obviously untrue. Nothing has changed😂

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@norbitonflyer5625supposed to, indeed!

[@liamtahaney713]

I really like the overground, i see it as a huge success. Really wish more cities would invest in similar systems to this where the infrastructure exists

[@danieleyre8913]

Yes but don't forget; Transport for London has been in a big financial black hole since the pandemic that it won't be able to get out of for many years yet. And London is the wealthiest city in the UK by no close margin.

[@francesconicoletti2547]

I think both Vienna and Berlin have, but they too are both former 19th century imperial cities with lots of formerly imperial rail infrastructure. Paris is building new stuff but I have seen some mention of perhaps reopening its old orbital. Newer or poorer cities don’t have the massive infrastructure that London just has lying around ready to be renovated and reused.

[@simonfwhawthorn]

The Overground is basically a cross between the RER and an S-Bahn. With a weirdly unique London twist. Obviously.

[@coyotelong4349]

I feel like it wants to be an S-Bahn but doesn’t quite achieve that goal In order to be a true S-Bahn system, a bunch of suburban Overground lines would have to converge and follow the same heavily-trafficked route through Central London

[@leeharveyosmond]

[Overground? OK I'm going off-topic] I saw some library footage of the London Tilbury and Southend line, heading east from Liegh-on-Sea towards Chalkwell. And I saw stuff footage from inside the National Railway Museum at York, which is where I was, this time last week. Flying Scotsman VR experience for £7 on top of suggested £5 donation for general admission? Definitely. Would do again. Would like it to be nerdier though

[@neilmossey]

Fabulous video thanks Those butterfly stickers on the Overground doors always look like smashed windows taped up.... Too used to South Western Railway...

[@AlanEvans789]

When I was a kid growing up in Hornchurch during the 1970's we generally referred to all of the trains that weren't part of the Underground network as simply the overground. Which essentially covered the entire British Rail network. Be that getting the train from Romford to Ilford, or doing the cross platform change to the Central Line at Stratford. All the way to a day trip up to York to visit the National Railway Museum.

[@ib9rt]

This is true. The overground simply referred to the big trains that weren't the Underground.

[@danieleyre8913]

Yes. I had family who lived in London during the 1990's and they called all the train services using the mainline simply "overground" regardless of whether they were the original British rail "network SouthEast", south west trains, silverlink, connex south eastern, or whatever. They'd say something like "oh you can use the overground". But I suppose that when TfL decided it was going to bid for train operating services within London: The natural choice of name for the service was "London overground". I lived in London between 2004-09, during which period London Overground emerged, and people still just said "the overground" to refer to urban passenger services. I expect they still do.

[@farmerjohn6192]

I used to travel to work on the Clapham Junction to Olympia line. Nasty 2 car DMUs. On a good day I could catch the intercity Manchester to Brighton train instead. The former is now extended as part of the overgrown and the latter doesn’t exist.

[@danielcwright]

Thanks for this. As someone in the north west, the overground fascinates me in every way. I think the branding is really strong & works really well with the underground branding. The size and frequency of the rolling stock is lightyears ahead of what we have up here. So jealous... Also - another fantastic video. Keep it up!

[@sglenny001]

Mersyrail and metro link vist Yorkshire we've got a supertram and northen fail and depressed Leeds thst just a tear away

[@noggin73]

I remember getting a silverlink and standing in the remains of a buffet carriage. I was squished into the area the server would have stood. They didn't even remove this. But then we also had slam door trains.

[@CarolineFord1]

Silver link was just terrible. Anyone who complains about the overground needs to be ported back in time to travel on one of those

[@danieleyre8913]

I lived in Willsden green for a period of a few months in early-mid 2007. I took the Silverlink trains a number of times in their last days before it was all wound up. I will never forget getting on a train between Hackney and West Hampstead. The bottom seat on the only available seat was literally not attached to the frame and the whole area stunk of urine. I made the mistake of putting my arm up by the window to rest i and I then realised that it was filthy and it left a grey-brown stain on my sleeve. Then if things couldn't get any more unappealing; at a station in between, the late singer Amy Winehouse and a large muscular man of Afro-Carribean heritage (probably a minder or bodyguard) got on the carriage at a stop in between and then got off again a few stops down. And she looked utterly hagged.

[@TheMusicianTom]

I miss the slam door trains. I grew up in Essex and took the train to school every day.

[@tiagoprado7001]

Amazingly, my town last saw a train service exactly 17 years ago, because when the previous franchise contract lapsed and we switched private operators, the one line that served us was left out the new contract, exactly because no one used it anymore because of decades of disinvestment and growth in car use. And in a similar spirit to the overground, there were plans on how to integrate this line into a new system to revitalise it even way before it was closed, but those have been all but forgotten about now, the only reminder of what could have been being the numbering of the other metro lines: 1, 2 and 4.

[@t.p.mckenna]

I'm really no train-head, but the TSW clips you featured were mighty impressive.

[@Jerrymouse79]

It’s a very good game. What you saw there is just a couple of the camera features you can use in the middle of your journey. As you can see the detail, especially that of the trains is fantastic. If you don’t have a console then there is train simulator on the PC from the same developer but slightly less impressive graphics wise. Try it! Get it when it’s on sale and you get some routes to start you off. You can also download older routes from the older versions of the game which will be slightly cheaper. Lots of fun to be had.

[@t.p.mckenna]

@@Jerrymouse79Yea, but can I get a free version on my Oyster 60+??!!

[@tonys1636]

I miss the British Railways and early British Rail days, stations had helpful staff that would assist with one's luggage and people with disabilities even carrying them in their wheelchair up and down stairs. The downside was having to travel in the baggage van as the corridors and carriage doors were too narrow for a wheelchair.

[@bordershader]

Bwahaha what a ridiculous comment "I miss lacking independence and being treated like luggage" >wipes tears from eyes

[@frglee]

I suppose the half-realised Victorian attempts at circular routes outside central London were an early attempt at an 'overground system' connected with the Underground. The Outer Circle being quite interesting in that respect. From Mansion House station, London and North Western trains followed the District Railway to Earls Court, then branched off to the West London Railway at Addison Road (now known as Kensington Olympia), Shepherds Bush, Willesden Junction and then around the North London Railway to Dalston Junction and Broad Street. It was cut back to an Earls Court to Willesden Junction service in 1908, electrified, and that service ran until bomb damage stopped it in 1940. A short-lived Midland Railway 'Super Outer Circle' operated between Earl's Court to St Pancras via Hammersmith, South Acton and the Dudding Hill line to Cricklewood between 1878-80.

[@musiqtee]

I’m old and confused enough to not decide what’s worse… - A high number of competitive companies not getting services connected, - A small number of companies pretending to compete, but secretly deciding not to get services connected, or - One enterprise having bought all the others, making money on property & shares, and not bothered getting their own services connected, lastly - The government inventing franchises, and we’re back to start - except nobody owns anything to get services running at all… I think I’ll ask Marx…😂

[@matthewgartell6380]

I'm sorry to rain on Jagos parade but who needs train simulater 4 when we have Jago ?

[@PaulMcElligott]

Some of us need a fix in between Jago’s videos.

[@paulblake1164]

@@PaulMcElligott It takes up less room than an actual model railway. Please don't tell Hornby. Have you seen their prices?

[@paulhaynes8045]

What an excellent video! Loads of really interesting information, answering questions I didn't know that I had! And a wonderfully abridged history of British railways over the last hundred years. I've often questioned how long you can keep making videos about what might appear to be a fairly finite topic, and wondered when you would inevitably run out of topics. But this unexpected and excellent video has answered my question - not for a long time - if ever!

[@christopherdean1326]

10:06. And there, bottom left, is another ticket machine I have had in pieces and re-assembled more than once! At least for that one I managed to arrange parking within feet of the machine (about where that picture was taken from!) so that I didn't have to drag tools and spare parts that far....

[@PeterGaunt]

Thanks yet again, Jago. Excellent as always!

[@norbitonflyer5625]

The Wat-Eus route was also part of the original Overground network, having formed, with the Goblin and North London Lines, the "Silverlink Metro" franchise.

[@OliverTurnerMSc]

The Watford DC line was awful under Silverlink. Seeing the new Class 378s and the bump in frequency was a HUGE improvement, not to mention that they relaid the track around the same time.

[@johnjephcote7636]

I still call it the 'New Line'. When I worked at Watford Jct in the 1960s everyone called it that. The LNWR built it in 1917 to be electrified; hence the 'New Line'.

[@danieleyre8913]

As I understand it; it was originally built to relieve services between Watford and the now long-demolished Broad street terminus.

[@pharrya]

Yep. that was my daily commute for a while in the late 90s. It was awful.

[@melvynbuckton6881]

It was built to provide electric commuter services alongside the lnwr main line between watford and both euston and broad street

[@1258-Eckhart]

As a Londoner between the years 1980 and 1994 I would point out that the term "overground" was in common use amongst those moderately interested in railways to distinguish any London train service which was not "The Undergound" (©LT). It became synonymous with Network Southeast lines within Greater London. The "Thameslink" brand began to encroach on what could be called "overground" and privatisation with all the special branding that came with it did for most of the rest. What was left was a bunch of lines that were "overground" but unattractive to the franchising system (viz. "Silverlink"). Someone at TfL had the brainwave of creating out of this residual overground network the brand "The Overground". I think that the new line names are silly and merely water down the strength of this Overground brand.

[@Hamoshekabeka]

I agree about the silly names part.

[@edhaworth8151]

The north London line in the late 90s/early 00s was dire. Near derelict stations, ancient trains, constant delays. The only plus was that they were essentially free with no working ticket machines and no ticket barriers.

[@johnmurray8428]

I would travel on the goblin line from Crouch Hill to Barking, stopping all stations and then semi fast to Southend. London Midland Region but many of the station signs were blue, some midland red. As boys it took a long time to find out why! Thank you for this video.

[@DadgeCity]

"If a railway wasn't profitable, the govt wasn't willing to subsidise it." But profitable railways don't need to be subsidised...

[@julesmo323]

This works as well for banks and insurance companies.

[@MrGreatplum]

Great stuff, Jago - I suppose the answer is that the overground is a disparate group of lines that happen to be run by TfL!

[@TheEarlofK]

I think this was a necessary video even for those of us who are supposedly familiar with the Overground network. I can certainly vouch for the improvement in the Romford to Upminster service, the old rolling stock was prone to breakdown and cancellation of trains and the new rolling stock is a vast improvement in all regards.

[@amethyst7084]

Just remembering the North London Line, as it was in the early 90s, run by Silverlink. That was an experience. Having grown up seeing the North London Line included on LT's tube map, I was fascinated by this Line, and once I achieved some financial independence and had some spare time, made sure I took a ride on it from North Woolwich to Richmond. The section from North Woolwich to Stratford felt quite quaint, as the train went through the old royal dock surroundings, and the absence of retail developments in the royal dock areas added to this. Once you got from Stratford through to Gospel Oak, the heavy crowding highlighted the urban sprawl. You could feel quite claustrophobic at that stage. Between Gospel Oak and Willesden Junction, the atmosphere lightened a little. The Willesden Junction area itself was a marvel to observe with its mixture of passenger and freight trains - one of the only places you'd see freight on the network (apart from the area between Stratford and Leyton, and the Electron Works that was sited between Upton Park and East Ham, I can't think of anywhere freight traffic could be seen). After passing Willesden Junction, the west London section to Richmond felt quite genteel. The North London Line could certainly exude different characteristics during that single journey. The Goblin Line in the early 90s was a different affair. Riding in those old carriages of the diesel-driven 2-car train, where the seat springs threatened to impale you, made you feel that you were on a cut-price tour of north London. I remember how curious it felt to be on a line that was almost exclusively (after Woodgrange Park) elevated. The new trains that are on the Goblin line now are a Godsend. Thanks for the rundown, Jago. The Overground is a wonderful entity, and its multifaceted history makes it unique in the capital's transport network. 👏🏾🌟🚉❤

[@melanierhianna]

This video is interesting because there’s definitely a different view of privatisation outside of the south east than within the south east. Yes NSE got invested in, but they didn’t invest in rail transport in the North and West. In fact, on average they spend 4 times as much per capita on public transport in the SE as they do in Yorkshire and the NE. With privatisation our stations were renovated and our shitty 40 year old rolling stock was replaced, albeit in waves. Now most of it is only a few years old. And services which were canned by BR have returned due to modern technology. Bi-mode means I can catch an Azuma from my local station on the Harrogate line (unelectrified) all the way to Kings Cross. And it runs four times a day. So I always wondered why people in the SE hated privatisation. It’s because your trains did actually get worse until the overground came a long.

[@BenCurrington]

Silverlink! That's a name I had forgotten, for good reason I expect, their trains served Northampton a long time ago.

[@RichardWatt]

And up to Birmingham then Wolverhampton.

[@BenCurrington]

​@@RichardWatt yes, most times I used them I was going to Devon, so I would change at Birmingham New Street.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

The sponsor read really was flawless. It deserves a standing ovation!

[@neilbain8736]

I've always wondered the same 'why'. I couldn't fathom it out. But it seems to have now proven itself anyway. I'm sure there's a moral about how to run a railway in there and the original Great Western knew a thing or two about standardisation.

[@nigelmattravers5913]

When I moved to London from Hong Kong in 2001, and used to the simplicity of the MTR, I could not make head nor tail of either the Underground or the various overground lines. Thankfully things are now much better, but I do spend a lot of time helping confused tourists get to their destinations.

[@PeterGaunt]

I've been here over 50 years, use the transport system a lot and still can't make head nor tail of some of it at times especially if I'm having a 'senior moment' when I'm going somewhere I've not been before. It's a wonder it works at all though given that the core stuff was never planned as a 'system' as Jago is so adept at explaining.

[@RichardWatt]

My wife won't go to London without me as she finds the transport confusing, yet I find it fairly easy - I've never lived in London, just visited.

[@2112pk]

best ad read i've ever seen, purely for the deadpan delivery of the phrase "enter goblin mode" you're a national treasure, jago

[@ChazDude]

Nearly lost it at 'goblin mode'. I see what you did there!

[@supermanifolds]

Best possible sponsor for this channel, I love it

[@mdhazeldine]

Might be the most relevant sponsor you'll ever get :)

[@birdbrain4445]

Great video. I think you very much summed up what the Overground is, because it is rather more nebulous than most of TfL's other services in definition as you say, stemming simply from a need to bring various London-specific lines under control. It is honestly rather a marvellous idea, all things considered. Helped out these struggling but necessary lines immensely with better... everything from administration to rolling stock to facilities to timetables, made them more appealing to ride, connected parts of London that weren't as well connected.

[@edwilson5416]

Tfl has been a massive success. Other UK cities need a unified public transport system like this.

[@MrGreatplum]

I think that’s recently happened in Manchester - will be interesting to see how this works!

[@lefthandedspanner]

the orbital nature of the central section of the Overground is interesting - the Abercrombie Plan of 1943 had plans for a box of motorways along much the same route, called the B Ring (later Ringway 1, when the GLC expanded the scope and ambition of those plans), which was intended to serve a very similar function; this is not a coincidence, as it was planned to run alongside those railways, in order to keep the destruction to a minimum and much like the Overground, you'd have had to change/turn off at the corners to stay on it the only major difference in route is that the eastern section, the one complete part that was actually built (the East Cross Route, part of an entirely separate 50s/early 60s Docklands regeneration scheme), is further out from the city, and crosses the river at Blackwall rather than at Rotherhithe

[@bordershader]

I lived in London at the time when LT was becoming TfL (i even worked for LT for a bit, leaving just before the changeover) and found the whole overground thing so confusing. Whenever i travelled on it the trains were shabby, uncomfortable, dirty, covered in graffiti, and always felt dangerous, like I was going to be mugged. It always put me in mind of New York trains.

[@musiqtee]

Good choice of sponsor! You are the rebellion to my anxiety of the online rentier economy not selling anything - but anxiety… 😅

[@isashax]

Thanks so much for the explanation. For me, the Overground was and still is kind of confusing. I am glad that the lines will be separated on the maps again.

[@PeterGaunt]

I'm one of possibly a minority of one who thinks the new colours will confuse things instead of making it easier. I think they missed a trick in not colouring in the middle of the double lines in orange or some other colour, or alternatively leaving the double lines orange and filling in the middle with the new colours. As for the new names: entirely bonkers but that's London for you I guess.

[@isashax]

​@@PeterGaunt I still have to see the new map, but keeping it all orange was confusing for me. I am going to London soon and have to go to Walthamstow. I wasn't sure what destinations I could reach from there.

[@daispy101]

I can only imagine the filing system on Jago's desktop he uses to dig out the appropriate footage for the numerous lines.

[@robkunkel8833]

Chicago has the L (elevated) which were on the elevated in the Downtown area but were underground outside of the specific Downtown area As it reached former incorporated cities outside of the early Downtown region of neighborhoods it went overground again for a part of the train line.

[@Andrewjg_89]

Before you had the London Overground. You had Silverlink Metro, Network Southeast and other train operators that run suburban services in Northeast London and the East London Line that was part of the London Underground. Before London Overground was introduced in 2007 and the East London Line became part of the London Overground in 2010. And with extension to West Croydon, Clapham Junction via Denmark Hill and Crystal Palace in South London. And the Lea Valley Lines & Romford-Upminster line that became part of the Overground in 2015.

[@sianwarwick633]

Need a fanfare for this one Jago. I love the Overground, and i don't live in London. Dare i whisper: it is a success

[@Azeria]

in an even sillier definition… it’s the lines where the trains have orange fronts

[@JagoHazzard]

Except the Glasgow Subway, of course.

[@marcelwiszowaty1751]

​@@JagoHazzardNot for much longer though... after delivery of the last of the new Stadler trains. 🙂

[@paulhaynes8045]

I was going to make a joke about Tesco and orange. But then I realised it's Sainsbury's who use orange. I think. Then I gave up the will to live. So that's two very successful brand images, then...

[@MrScoot27]

Jago and Dovetail teaming up on an ad is a bit unexpected, although in hindsight also obvious, but to hear the man mention a game I play, on a channel not exactly devoted to such things, was quite fun.

[@MrAsthenia]

4:17 silky smooth segue

[@Thommygun-qv7um]

Finally a sponsor I actually care about. But the transition was as awesome as always!

[@SnowdriftBoy]

7:57 Hilarious and precise! 🤣🤣🤣

[@sockstarnik]

Mr Hazard we all love you. We love your vids. You are what the BBC once was

[@a11oge]

excellentl explaination of a compilcated subject - well done JH

[@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe]

Whato Jago, What were you doing in Wapping in the middle of the night? Were you on the way to your favourite opium den in Limehouse?

[@PeterGaunt]

Do I spot a Sherlock Holmes fan?

[@sianwarwick633]

​@@PeterGauntor the Limehouse golem ?

[@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe]

@@PeterGaunt Whato Peter, yes you do.

[@jimfrodsham7938]

I never thought I would ever hear "Network Southeast" and "Fondly remembered" in the same sentence. I trust this was ironic and a reference to the cattle trucks I travelled on in the late '80's from Woolwich to Charing X.

[@bordershader]

Yeah that made me laugh too!

[@iankemp1131]

It was Chris Green and NSE who got the planning and funding for the Networker units that replaced the cattle trucks and still do a good job today. Some things can't be turned round instantly. NSE as a whole was good for the services that it operated.

[@K8thebest_Gaming]

Nah the people who own train sim world 4 should have Jago do their ad reads

[@herseem]

This is the first time I've ever been grateful for a paid promotion. Perfectly timed for me to buy for my Dad as a 91st Birthday present. We tried to get him a 'footplate' train driving experience for his 75th Birthday but apparently their insurance only ran up to 70 years of age.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Charles Tyson Yerkes you’d have loved the Train Simulator!

[@cigmorfil4101]

Shirley Railroad Tycoon would have been his game?

[@Jerrymouse79]

Yes, him again

[@thatguyfromcetialphaV]

31270 was at Peak Rail for a while. I have a pic somewhere of me hanging off the cab.

[@boohaka]

When I grew up in London, it was all called the underground. I don’t recall the name ‘overground’ being used, but I’m now apprehensive about being told different! 😊

[@norbitonflyer5625]

What is now called the Overground was never the Underground - they are different. The Overground is former British Rail lines. (Except the East London Line which used to be part of the Underground). (And Gunnersbury to Richmond where the Overground shares tracks with the Underground) (And Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone likewise)

[@katrinabryce]

The Overground was introduced in 2007, so it was very likely not around when you were young.

[@danieleyre8913]

People would use the term "overground" to describe any mainline passenger service.

[@stevegreen8262]

maybe I can explain; in my recent videos on the 0:10 overground a fair few people based 0:12 outside of London asked what actually is 0:15 the 0:16 overground how is it defined how does it 0:19 differ from the underground or the 0:21 Elizabeth line or even regular Railways 0:25 and the more I thought about it the more 0:26 I thought it's a curious thing so what 0:30 exactly is the 0:32 overground the simple and frankly 0:35 unhelpful answer is it's all the lines 0:37 group together under the overground 0:39 brand it's hard to be more specific 0:42 because there isn't really that much 0:44 that makes them unique as compared to 0:47 other railway lines which brings us to 0:50 the bigger question which is why is the 0:53 overground well I'm going to start this 0:56 story a little over a 100 years ago in 0:58 the early 20th Cent it was well 1:01 recognized that the railways were not 1:03 the license to print money that their 1:06 promoters had hoped as a matter of fact 1:09 a lot of the major companies were not to 1:12 put too fine a point on it basically 1:15 broke so in 1921 the railways Act was 1:18 passed the idea was to group the 1:20 railways together so that the rich lines 1:22 could prop the poor lines up now 1:24 initially the plan was to divide things 1:26 up by geography Railways would be 1:29 grouped into regions most versions of 1:31 this plan had London as a separate 1:34 region even back then London was the 1:36 largest and most densely populated city 1:39 in the UK and its commuter trains were 1:41 phenomenally busy most of its Railways 1:44 were already Allied in the underground 1:46 group with the Metropolitan Railway and 1:49 the north London Railway also getting 1:51 involved in Collective decisions but 1:54 doing things geographically was 1:55 controversial because many companies 1:57 owned some highly illogical lines for 2:01 instance the Midland Railway which would 2:03 fall into the Northwestern geographical 2:05 group owned the line to Tilbury and 2:08 South End which was firmly in the 2:11 Southeast then there were several 2:13 companies for whom London commuter 2:15 trains were their largest source of 2:16 income how would the shareholders be 2:18 compensated for that so it was decided 2:21 instead to do things by company with all 2:24 the silliness that entailed the grouping 2:27 took place in 1923 the London commun M 2:30 lines stayed with the company that 2:31 currently owns them those companies 2:34 would be folded into the larger new 2:36 companies as a compromise the 2:38 underground lines would remain 2:39 independent with the exception of the 2:41 London and Southwestern Railway owned 2:43 waterl and City Line which would spend 2:46 the next 71 years being an underground 2:49 line in all but name in 1948 the 2:52 railways were nationalized although 2:54 again the underground remained its own 2:56 separate thing grouped together with 2:58 buses and trams British Railways the new 3:01 nationalized network was divided into 3:03 regions that were broadly similar to the 3:05 old grouping companies there was 3:07 additionally a Scottish region and for a 3:10 time a Northeastern region 3:12 nationalization brought with it a demand 3:14 for financial accountability if a 3:16 railway was not profitable the 3:18 government was not willing to subsidize 3:20 it the trouble was that Railways on the 3:24 whole are not profitable this period 3:27 coincided with an increase in car owners 3:29 ship so what happened was that Railways 3:32 made less money so they received less 3:34 investment so they became less 3:36 attractive to ride so they made less 3:38 money in a vicious circle in most parts 3:42 of the country this resulted in Railways 3:45 being closed altogether but even an 3:47 underused line in London was still busy 3:49 so there were few closures just a lot of 3:53 very unhappy passengers on crowded 3:55 rattling dirty trains if you'd like a 3:58 far better experience of trains in 4:00 London I'd recommend train Sim World 4 4:03 who are partnering with me for this 4:04 video train Sim World 4 allows you to 4:08 experience the railway in the best 4:09 possible way from the driver's cab and 4:12 now you can enter Goblin mode with the 4:14 suffragette line add-on it's an 4:16 adventure adventure yes I said that wait 4:20 what's that overground not really your 4:23 thing well it's a bit weird that you're 4:25 watching this video but all right how 4:27 about taking the Helm of this centinary 4:29 Ian Behemoth with the deluxe edition you 4:32 can experience the Fantastical adventure 4:34 of driving Flying Scotsman without going 4:37 bankrupt impossible not with train Sim 4:40 World 4 or if you want something more 4:43 modern how about an auma or a class 66 4:46 with Livery designer scenario Planner 4:49 free roam mode and formation designer 4:52 which is available as a beta for PC 4:54 players you can make your train look 4:56 however you like haul whatever you like 4:58 send it wherever you like can even 5:00 choose the weather which is more than 5:02 you can say for public transport in the 5:04 real world train Sim World 4 is 5:06 available on Steam epic PS4 PS5 Xbox One 5:11 Xbox series X and Xbox series s check it 5:14 out using the link in the description

[@jtadventures2011]

I love Train Sim World 4! So fun. There is also a London Victoria - Brighton Route on there

[@Thedclasstank]

The sponsor was inevitable

[@kingayman5225]

Incredible sponsorship, I hated them for their DLCs this just made me like them 1% more

[@madduckuk]

Today of all days!

[@HaggardPillockHD]

​@@kingayman5225 ditto. Dlc for individual tube lines = robbery

[@DavidHockey-h6e]

Back in the 1970s and 1980s innorthLondon, , the "Overground" was a bit of a catch all term generally used for any of the rail services in and around London irrespective of whether the service was actually Network SE or a predecessor company. You would speak of "catching the Overground to, say, Finsbury Park and then getting the Tube to Oxford Circus". I always thought that TfL simply adopted a name that was already in used, albeit informally.

[@CranehawkPilot]

I never knew Jago was so good at advertising lol

[@spookydirt]

Train Sim World 4 would be really handy for B-roll if there was no available footage

[@CarolineFord1]

It’ll be very copyrighted

[@garybroadhurst3548]

@@CarolineFord1 Oooh I wonder how that would work? I never thought about it like that. There are MANY KZbin videos that use Microsoft Flight Sim for b-roll, for example and literally millions of videos of people just playing games. Surely the exposure of things like this - especially for something less well known such as TrainSim, would only lead to MORE purchases of the actual game. Free advertising. And nobody would think "ah, I won't bother buying that because I just see it on KZbin instead". Maybe Jago knows how it works.

[@asjbfjbkaw]

@@CarolineFord1 While technically yes, no games studio that I know of apart from Nintendo has ever really done anything about this sort of thing in a KZbin video. And the Nintendo thing wasn't even about broll as far as I know.

[@Jerrymouse79]

@@CarolineFord1I’m not entirely sure that would be true. I believe you can create photos etc in-game and share them. Therefore how could Dovetail claim copyright if it’s “public” or “shareable” Also I’m not certain that there isn’t a TSW4 logo on said created content so surely that means there would definitely be no issue.

[@Jerrymouse79]

⁠@@garybroadhurst3548I don’t think train sim is as “less well known” as you may think. This is the 4th instalment in the series for console added to the popular PC series Train simulator of which there are many many MANY add ons that you don’t get in TSW. They now also have released a Tram Sim game aswell.

[@f1since08]

Loving the shots of the venture to NRM Locomotion!

[@DC4260Productions]

I should've seen the TSW4 sponsorship coming. As a frequent reviewer of TSW content, I don't know what to make of said sponsorship. Incidentally, I'm editing my own review of the Goblin route as I write this comment.

[@johnburns4017]

It is very easy to branch the Lioness Line between South Hampstead (Swiss Cottage) and Euston to the Mildmay Line between Kentish Town and Camden Road. Then it will run to Stratford via Highbury & Islington,. The track is there. A station is already there at the bridge at primrose Hill creating a stop in that district.

[@MrPeach71]

For a guy who's supposed to be taking a break, you're dropping some great content. I would love a Sim, but am mostly interested in tube lines, and since BVE stopped working, haven't really had the opportunity. TSW only seems to have the Bakerloo, and it seems a bit of a waste for one line. Willing to be told otherwise. Loved the Flying Scotsman gag. My Mum worked for BR Liverpool Region in the 1960's. Mr Pegler was an occasional visitor.

[@Jerrymouse79]

There is a metro line on there I believe also the Bakerloo line has a “rush hour” add on available (as do a couple other lines including London to Brighton)

[@CharlieMile]

Would love a video on what is in store for the future of the overground. Will all national rail lines eventually become overground? Or will it always be limited? And how does the Overground compare with other London rail commuter services in terms of people, regularity, and finance?

[@user-ky6vw5up9m]

Much of the Overground services run on track owned by Network Rail. On such lines, TfL has a “Running Rights “ agreement with Network Rail. Highbury to New Cross is an example of a TfL owned line.

[@Gordanovich02]

A younger version of myself was surprised to see a freight train roll through Hackney Wick one November evening, as said younger version had assumed the branding, and presence on Tube maps, meant it was a dedicated passenger rail line.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

The Overground really has been on (or not) Goblin mode recently #IYKYK

[@artistjoh]

One question I have that is not addressed here. Some of the Overground lines go underground, and some of the Underground lines go overground. So what portion of each is actually underground, and what portion is overground? I would hope that the Overground is substantially overground, and the Underground is substantially underground, but I have learnt that seemingly obvious things are not always as obvious as one would expect.

[@camenbert5837]

I believe more of the underground is in fact overground than underground.

[@artistjoh]

@@camenbert5837I suspected as much, which is why I asked the question, and it seems logical to ask, which of the Underground/Overground lines actually more underground or overground.

[@kdisley]

I've always thought that, if the rest of TfL's services are the various elements of a Christmas dinner - the Brussels sprouts with the chestnuts, the chipolatas wrapped in bacon, the stuffing, and obviously the usual roast and trimmings, and so on - then the Overground is the turkey sandwiches on Dec 27th. Feel free to dole out the comparisions between other dishes and other services as you see fit. Possibly London River Services might equate to the gravy boat...?

[@IndigoJo]

What London Overground routes have in common is that they are operated by TfL along conventional rail lines, some of them owned by Network Rail and perhaps some not (old ELL maybe?), using trains of similar specification to trains run by other operators on NR lines. They use the same voltages, the same gauge and loading gauge, the same train class system as every other main line rail operator. The difference between these lines and the Elizabeth Line is really one of branding (its centrepiece is a new line unlike the Overground, which consists of pre-existing and reopened lines, with one or two new connections), but the difference between the Overground and Underground definitely isn't. It definitely needed a new branding; it would seem a bit stupid to call a line running to Clapham Junction or Croydon the East London Line, for example.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Is it actually run by TfL? I thought at least some lines were contracted out, just like Crossrail or the buses.

[@TheHoveHeretic]

"Several other lines have been proposed for inclusion over the years" ...... but we're clearly not allowed to mention the Dartford or Bromley North/Hayes slice (or whether Dartford's eastern boundary lies at Bluewater or Gravesend). I suspect were Dartford not Kent² (i.e. postcode AND phone area code outside London), trains would had orange doors some time ago.

[@gs425]

Jago...this is the most informative video you have ever done. I often have to travel to London and where I can use the tube and dlr to get around. And yet even I only found out last year that overground can be treated like underground...as far as tickets and easy route hopping goes. Outside of London I really think few people realise what overground is. And most of all that it's run by tfl. Someone needs to shout this more I feel.

[@teecefamilykent]

A thoroughly enjoyable and informative video sir!

[@johnbu11]

The Overground is essentially what Germans call a Stadtbahn or S-Bahn like in Berlin. In that sense the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink are more like heavy rail DB-Regio, which e.g. also operates within the greater Berlin area, or Umland.

[@mdhazeldine]

Most people compare the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink to RER and S-bahn services because they have a centre city tunnel, although I guess you could say the Overground is a bit like the Berlin Ringbahn, which is part of the S-Bahn network too, sooo yeah, I suppose? Not sure what the difference is in station spacing though.

[@Gfynbcyiokbg8710]

Not really. Almost all S-Bahn systems are much more similar to the Liz Line than the Overground

[@katrinabryce]

Elizabeth Line, Thamesline and Northern City Line are like the RER.

[@f.g.9466]

@@katrinabryce the Northern City Line maybe not so much, it reaches the city centre bue it doesn't cross it.

[@f.g.9466]

The S-bahn abreviation mostly stands for Schnellbahn, although it has occasionally been used to refer to Stadtschnellbahn or Stadtbahn, but usually a Stadtbahn is something different (mostly light rail or tram-trains). Nonetheless, this opens a bigger can of worms: what is exactly a S-bahn? There is only one thing called the London Overground, and it's an amalgamation of a more or less orbital route and different commuter lines. When you look closely at the different S-bahns you start realizing that Berlin's s-bahn is quite different from Munich or Hamburg, and then Zurich's s-bahn is even more different. And then even Zurich has a line that is completely different from the others. I don't really see "s-bahn" as well defined concept.

[@dalek3086]

Part of the Overground used to be called the Silverlink - Richmond to North Woolwich. Should go back to calling it the Silverlink , even though North Woolwich station has closed. Give it some identity.

[@wclifton968gameplaystutorials]

The "London Overground" is just a brand name for a small group of commuter railway lines like "Merseyrail" in Liverpool, England or "Transillien" in Paris, France, I hope this clears it all up.

[@thefareplayer2254]

The next time a fellow American asks me “what’s the London Overground?”, I’m gonna tell them “it’s London’s version of Merseyrail.”

[@DadgeCity]

But Merseyrail includes all the local lines. The Overground certainly doesn't.

[@mattevans4377]

​@@DadgeCityIf Liverpool had trams or tube trains, I'm sure they'd be a 'separate' entity too (as in not Merseyrail, but under Merseytravel).

[@feynaomi]

@@mattevans4377 The difference isn't that the tube is a different entity, it's that most railways that could be part of a similar network aren't part of the overground. In the south especially there's a lot of rail services that are entirely inside of london and in a more holistic system would be part of the overground

[@mattevans4377]

@@feynaomi Which is actually what TFL wants to fix, but it requires money and commitment, something the Government refuses to give, even though it's London.

[@jessicamorgan3073]

Fascinating, thank you for your work.

[@andreww2098]

the poster at 10:47 keep a safe distance from our staff, why? are they dangerous? and yes I know it's from Covid

[@markpapp8784]

North London Line? I used to use that to commute to and from school in the '70s. Slam doors and compartments. I don't miss them.

[@Twannnng]

I've always wanted to be the electrification to someone's goblin.

[@dirtywaterpj_dj]

I remember using the Silverlink as a youth and thinking, “Wouldn’t this be great if it was run like the Underground with more regular trains. Surely it’d have more passengers and be better for everyone.” Then a decade later along came the Overground. That said, I was living in Clapton when that line was taken over. It was quick and easy to get to work at Liverpool Street. After TfL took over, passenger numbers increased enormously. Then trains came through and they were now too packed to get on them at Clapton until rush hour had died down. I moved to Crouch End, where there’s no station, and started working from home.

[@OpenbaarVervoer2D]

To me as a foreigner every train in greater London feels like going with the metro or subway, from tube trains to DLR to Elizabeth line as they mostly all have some metro style interior and many stops.

[@miguelbarreira5005]

I feel weird when I say that my trip from Clapham Junction to Shadwell was one of my favourites, back in 2021