What are the consequences on culture as we become more secular | Alex - ND | Talk Heathen 03.28

[@silentotto5099]

To paraphrase something Hitchens used to say... As long as the Bible and Koran say what they say, they will always be a justification for believers to act like tyrants.

[@questionmark576]

Caller claims unchanging moral standard is necessary and spends the call explaining why God changes his moral standard for different people at different times.

[@dj_menyo839]

Im glad I wasnt the only one who noticed that. Im sitting here waiting to scream at the screen like. I like how Matt D handles those. I like to think that he would of held his feet to the fire.

[@ryancampbell5352]

you ask Christians and they'll say god is UN-changing, yet when you bring up stoning disobedient children, or the death penalty for gays, or working on the sabbath they'll say well that's the old testament. Well wait a second the Un-changing god changed?

@@ryancampbell5352 they like to imagine the peaceful hippie jesus as they spew hate. I like to think that if the 2nd coming happened they probably gay bashed him for wearing a robe and he just rolled out and left them behind lmao

[@NOTB666-p7v]

@@ryancampbell5352In regards to death penalty for gays, not exactly, there are well known Christians that very much believe it and wish for that!

[@JeevesAnthrozaurUS]

The moment he said he didn't claim any denomination, the first thing I thought was "Okay, Baptist..." Then he said he went to a Baptist church. Life is funny like that

[@Nickelini]

I used to be non-denominational, and in the 1980s most people hadn't a clue what that meant. So then I'd say "it's like Baptist". (We weren't actually Baptist tho)

[@Diviance]

The irony of non-denominational being a denomination.

[@Jerrymc1975]

Oh, the Pentecostals and Baptists famous line. I’m so tired of their ignorance in thinking they can dupe anyone, but aren’t bright enough to know they’re duping themselves. The irony. Another famous line: “its not a religion it’s a relationship.” 🙄

[@steevrawjers]

Jeeves Anthrozaur and also not funny lol

[@Carolinacaveman]

I get very nervous when i hear nondenominational. Baptist in practice, teachings, and very culty

[@jerrythecanary96]

So the caller agreed that slavery, rape, genocide are NEVER okay! Then he did a 180 and said that if God says to enslave, rape, and genocide, then they are okay because God is righteous! Why am I not surprised? 😒

[@hank_says_things]

“If God says it it’s moral and just.” Anyone who holds to such a philosophy has absolutely no business scolding anyone else about their moral system.

[@bennettfloyd2715]

Thomas's response regarding how and why moral standards can and should be changed as we (society) gain more knowledge and understanding about the world we live in was absolutely brilliant.

[@jamesgossweiler1349]

Yes, and in time moral standards can be changed to accommodate pedophilia, murder, rape, etc. After all, isn't it us now who determine what is "moral?" I now declare theft moral!

[@emrk6517]

@@jamesgossweiler1349 Are you a troll, or do you really truly not understand harm against others? Pedophilia, murder, rape, theft etc. harm people who are victims of such actions. Moral, for secular people, is what promotes the well being of all sides, if it hurts one side it is not good moral standard.

[@derwolf9670]

Pedophilia, murder and rape...the things that the Bible endorses, you mean?

[@alicelaybourne1620]

@@derwolf9670 tsk, tsk, you forgot incest

[@nunyabusiness979]

@@alicelaybourne1620 I've had family members justify biblical incest under the guise that the bloodlines were more pure. It's revulting what religions justify.

[@kevinfancher3512]

"Rape was seen as a property crime." Aaaaagh. That is it. So straight forward. Thank you, Thomas. Also: "This book is all kinds of messed up." Nice.

[@chriswhitehouse9137]

If the Gestapo came to my door and asked about the Jews I was hiding in my attic, then yes...I would lie right to their faces. In this situation, lying would be an absolute good.

[@steevrawjers]

Chris Whitehouse true lying is always good when it's not bad

[@goddessmelanisia]

Lying isn't always bad. My late husband passed in 2013. His mother passed in 2019. She knew I was an atheist before she passed, she never knew he was. He didn't want her to know, because he thought it would hurt her.

[@stormthrush37]

25:20 This is a perfect analysis. It is essentially a "might makes right" argument at its core that this guy is making.

[@tedgrant2]

Today, I recycled two Bibles, the protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible. In addition I recycled three books about the Bible and Christianity. Don't need them any more !

[@gordoncampbell3514]

Alex's argument has been dealt with..... "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.- Steven Weinberg.

[@TheFifthEl]

He literally said "yes, X is always wrong" and then said that in certain contexts it was not wrong. Like, does he understand what "always" means?

[@steevrawjers]

TheFifthEl yes always but not all the time

[@CeezGeez]

being religious is all about making it up as you go

[@canderson5098]

how can you remove god from the picture when nobody has ever seen a picture of god?

[@ogopogoman4682]

Thank God he did the slef removal himself. Hallelujah.

[@canderson5098]

D don't care still don't believe

[@ishmaelkelly6686]

@Earl Emzworth 😂😂😂

[@anonymousjohnson976]

@D : Explain a "spirit" intelligently.

[@anonymousjohnson976]

D: But, I wanted to hear your view and opinion. Please explain a "spirit" intelligently, if you can.

[@TheCheapPhilosophy]

I feel sorry for this god of Alex, that people keep doing bad things in his name, and cannot do anything about it! Is heartbreaking! Please, help this god by doing what he can't!

[@christastempel5577]

I think Thomas was particularly brilliant in his answers to the callers nonsense, and both, Thomas and Eric were very kind, but firm and clear, while the caller was definitely struggling to maintain his defence of his God. I, like Thomas and Eric, hope that Alex rethinks his believe in the 'moral' authority of his God.

[@mjallen1308]

This dude has done so much gymnastics... please give his ass the gold. 10s across the board. Religious belief and worship should be fundamentally private. No one is saying you can believe or worship wherever or whenever but that is for YOU and YOU only. The moment you try to forcefully include someone else to follow your beliefs, then it’s a problem.

[@TumbleweedMK4]

Damn, Thomas' words were amazing there, bravo.

[@tomlutes3373]

When believers reflexively insist that I am taking their Bible out of context when I note the sanctioned evils, I directly challenge them to tell me where I have erred and provide the context in which such actions would be virtuous.

[@zhontac6194]

Christians like that are so easy to put on repeat. Talking about the evils of the Bible throws them off their script. They add their own 'god cannot be evil' context. Even god admits he created evil (Isaiah 45:7 I believe). I actually had a conversation like that with someone close to me and she said I had to be wrong because god cannot be evil or create evil. The older I grow and more I learn the horrified I am that I ever believed this crap or that I used to make these arguments. Sorry for the rant, and keep putting them on repeat.

[@tedgrant2]

"Whosover doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." I think we can all agree to ignore this commandment from the god of Israel. Even though ignoring the god of Israel will result in eternal punishment in a furnace of fire for ever. We don't care.

[@justincredible666]

Thanks Eric for everything you do. We need more people in this world like yourself. Thank you and don't keep the faith!!!

[@RedKytten]

"Whats good is always good" What about all these bad things? "Well, you need to look at the situation..."

[@louistracy6964]

Absolutely right about Turing

[@steevrawjers]

Louis Tracy yes and many others throughout history

[@JerryInGeorgia]

Alex blew it at 26 minutes and 15 seconds when he contradicted himself. He knew what he was saying... he knew that he was contradicting himself, so he was dishonest to himself and to everyone else and he knew it. He said something at 26 minutes and 15 seconds, he deliberately and conscientiously said that something that he knew to be wrong, that he had IMMEDIATELY before that agreed was wrong, was right. It is tragic. It is sad, it is pathetic, it is inexcusable. Also... he said that you guys have this moral standard "all of a sudden." No they did not have it all of a sudden. it was already there. AND HE AGREED.. They clarified that this rape and murder and sexual slavery and slavery was ALWAYS wrong , and HE AGREED. They did NOT "all of a sudden" have that moral standard. They always had it... they meaning Eric and... Scott, think it is? Glenn? Put me Alex but you really really really really really really really really blew it. And you know it. Peace.

[@benetton66]

You guys dismantle Alex's believe. Superb!

[@prokiid233rd]

This is EPIC, Thomas is a beast !!!!

[@jewellevy]

Thomas has finely honed his logical explanations. Respect. Love his channel.

[@DrPommels]

This is one of the best examples of what religion does to otherwise good people..... Alex has intelligence, reasoning, a moral compass.... right up until it conflicts with his indoctrination.... Then it is all out the window in favor of an immoral holy book and the monstrous god character it presents. If Alex would just continue his reasoning rather than accept with blind faith these stone age myths, he would come to a much different conclusion. He may still choose to believe, but he would have to live with the fact that he is worshipping an immoral god.

[@JerryInGeorgia]

What Eric said from 29 minutes and 3 seconds up to 15 seconds was awesome. I was golden.

[@adamchurvis1]

Happy birthday, Eric! Glad you're with us.

[@carlosgonzales8097]

Yall killin this giy

[@rayxav]

Poor Alex. His position is crap and he’s edging on knowing as much. They should have given him more rope, though. He doesn’t seem to have thought past, “cuz skydaddy...” and they had a chance to get him there if they stopped interrupting so much. Lead, don’t carry

[@bennettfloyd2715]

22:45 "That's jumping to an extreme conclusion." What other conclusion could one reasonably come to?

[@jimperry4108]

superb discussion.

[@steevrawjers]

Wow talk heathen is preachin tonight Amen

[@somesortofdeliciousbiscuit3704]

Sometimes it is good to lie - like a young WWII German soldier looking into an attic full of Jewish people and shouting down to his Captain - "Alles Klar!"

[@TheKosmikid]

Why do christians think you need god to have morality? As far as I know people were moral long before christianity came along.

[@DJ-73]

Yep and Christian's refuse to see it through other cultures, religions and empires before their god came into existence

[@DrPommels]

because they are indoctrinated into this thinking... it's not that difficult to understand, when you are told this tripe literally every day of your existence, it doesn't unwind in a 20 minute call. The religions are quite skilled at emotional manipulation, it has made them rich for millennia......

[@maow9240]

What determines what is moral and immoral?

[@jamesgossweiler1349]

Actually, the exact opposite was true. Ancient times were ridiculously immoral.

[@Drojanx]

@@maow9240 It's not what, it's who, and that being us, we decide what is and is not moral. And the best basis for this moral standard is what best benefits humanity. Rape? Physically and mentally harms and scars people, that is immoral. Letting people love, marry, and have sex with whomever will consensually allow it? That promotes happiness and a healthy life for those involved, that is moral.

[@australiagreg3179]

Best responce, excellent Thomas.

[@geezzerboy]

Just when I think I've heard the dopiest caller, along comes Alex and sets a new standard for total idiocy and total evil.

[@mindtraveller100]

well, there are many consequences on culture as we become more secular. All of them very positive.

[@joeo3377]

Alex says he is uncomfortable with secular morality because it leaves moral standards open to change, but doesn't realize that by saying God is the objective moral standard, it still leaves moral standards open to change. He thinks that because God is his moral standard, his moral standards are unchanging, despite the fact that he acknowledges that his moral standard is different than that of the Israelites, because of context.

[@chriskelly3481]

This is an astonishing example of cog dis oscillating in real time. Horrific.

[@MrZaborskii]

*Holy Koolaid!:* interjection. A phrase similar to "good lord," or "oh my God!" Often spoken while observing a Thomas Westbrook rant. Example: "Holy Koolaid! What a speech! Alex barely had time to get anywhere before Thomas laid out the consequences of his thinking."

[@brandonobaza8610]

Can't say for certain that I ever truly believed, but I remember each of my prayers being answered by forboding silence and being terrified at the possibility that God might hate me.

[@weldabar]

I had to laugh very hard when the Christian said that morality/what's_good doesn't change. He hasn't looked at his bible closely enough. .. then he goes on to disprove himself by the end of the video.

[@Rizzo91]

When Eric said "I got my bibble" XD

[@stormthrush37]

19:45 Wow, that is some pretty massive cognitive dissonance. Literally in the space of one breath, this guy goes from saying genocide and slavery and rape is always wrong to "it depends."

[@BorisNoiseChannel]

Dear Alex; We're trying to keep it secular since and because of the horrid god-believing dark ages. Lets keep doing just that, and try prevent any god-believing theocracy to ever take hold again. Right? (edited out a typo)

[@RyanBorger]

Absolutely moving way more secular. Gallup polls on Religion, show it clearly.

[@terencekent615]

The sound of tap dancing by believers is the equivalent of pronounced tinnitus.

[@Pranav-rp8wi]

This is the same logic Muslims present while defending Mohammad marrying ayeisha.. He was God's prophet.. ayeisha was the happiest woman ever.. etc etc

[@lewisner]

If Mohammad was illiterate why didn't allah make him literate by magic ?

[@markfromoakdale]

I think Thomas was referring to the Midianites. The Rape of the Midianites took place in Numbers 31 v. 15-18 which refers to a particularly horrifice conquest rape. Christians have never succeeded in justifying this.

[@Steve0272.]

The fact they can never admit ther god endorsed horrendous things that was wrong or immoral is actually shocking

[@samsox69]

The world will be a better place

[@bobwilson3980]

Is this guy for real, Christianity is by definition secular.

[@yaaayeetus]

thank you so much for this

[@jiubboatman9352]

Here is a book of rules. To understand those rules you need to decipher the book. I have never played Go, but I can pick up the book and learn to play without someone saying "Well, that's not the rules mean. You need to understand the context".

[@ryanfield431]

Where can one get the book of Eric?

[@izmark671]

1:00 "I don't like the Baptist Church, so I made up mine own truest, really cool god cuz gods are cool, really."

[@cyansloth1763]

OMG this might be a stupid question but is there a for real Book of Eric???? Cuz if so I NEED ONE

[@jaymeanderson5121]

I think it's just empty pages, so it can say anything he wants it to. But I could be wrong. 😉

[@YY4Me133]

We don't remove a god, we simply don't add one.

[@Icecoldhard]

Liking/not liking it has nothing to do with reality.

[@RozzieBass]

18 minutes in and he's full on no true scotsman ... a fulfilled prophecy!

[@chaosmarklar]

When I was homeless (due to seizures) I would leave a soup kitchen if they wanted to preach before the food, I went to a church soup kitchen that just served food in their bingo room without any preaching

[@DanielLee1]

“Well, when the president does it … that means that it is not illegal” -President Nixon

[@Gerryjournal]

'Oh but that was a different time' is only uttered when a passage is unpalatable.

[@Mewse1203]

If God is all powerful and doesn't stop or even denounce those who do evil in his name, he is tacitly condoning it.

[@karlrschneider]

condoning? shit, he ORDERS it according to a certain nasty old book of medieval BS.

[@galileoshift8330]

alex/north dakota is apparently misinformed: the bible explicitly approves slavery: see matt dillahunty's critical exposé on this subject

[@DJ-73]

All they have to do is read the bible

[@SuLorito]

07:00 how can you remove something that was never there, for those not raised a believer?

[@hank_says_things]

Caller: X is always wrong Host: God does/orders/condones X in the Bible Caller: X is always wrong unless God says

[@ryanruggero9957]

The idea of an inflexible moral standard is strongly contradicted in the Bible itself. How else could we go directly from God telling Moses thou shalt not kill to theocratically driven murder and genocide?

[@tedgrant2]

According to the law, I am innocent until proven guilty. According to Christians, I am guilty because I inherited sin from the god of Israel. Via Adam, although I am a Gentile, which means I didn't ! So I am not.

[@nagranoth_]

Everything will get better...

[@pacificwolfnz]

How does this caller see that his absolute moral standard is unbelievably subjective...? Its ok and not ok... which is it?

[@drakeopdahl6584]

God is how you can get good people to do horrific crimes!

[@karlrschneider]

Good people are good people only until they're not.

[@tedgrant2]

At the beginning of the 20th century, in the UK, fox hunting was legal but being gay was illegal. Now, it's the other way around.

[@karlrschneider]

Evolution at work.

[@tedgrant2]

@@karlrschneider And so we can conclude there are no absolute morals.

[@tomlutes3373]

Alex, Alex, Alex. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Taken as a human artifact, the Bible should be understood as a reflection of the people and times. However, when you claim it is a transcendent paragon of virtue, the expression of the explicit word of God, you don't get to weasel out with reference to context of time and place.

[@misfit8308]

Amen

[@mariostocco1]

Mark Ensel, Alex absolutely did not accept the Bible as a paragon of virtue. The line of reasoning is that to take moral norms written thousands of years ago is moral by secular or religious persons today. The Bible is a terrible reference source for moral guidance as pointed out in this episode. The caller struggled to acknowledge this. It is christians that are selectively reading only the biblical passages that remain acceptable in the present time. It is curious that the entirety of the book is read and studied by congregations at services. Imagine the effect of thoughtful questioning of the passages brought to light in this episode. Yes there is a historical context I’m not ignoring, neither am I ignoring some fundamental moral contexts that many cultures at that time would have condemned as we do today. Again, the question remains, “Why do Christians and Jews feel that the biblical god is a moral entity whose commandments should be obeyed?” If you and others are using your own morality over your god’s you need to reflect on what it is you actually believe about this book and why you take its contents so seriously. To use your own argument, a more thorough and critical understanding of the origins and history of the Bible may prove enlightening.

[@misfit8308]

@@mariostocco1 I think you meant to reply to the original message. You also seem to be preaching to the choir.

[@NoodleKeeper]

The idea that someone can argue that their perfect God needed clarification by a mortal without realizing that it destroys the idea of their God is baffling to me.

[@susiepittman601]

No, he's not wrestling with it.

[@kristina9079]

Thanks for allowing the co-host to talk fully. That so rarely happens, and it can be frustrating when the host cuts them off. I wonder how many great contributions have been lost because the host thinks they're more important. Looking at you Matt. This show is more even handed and just as intelligently done.

[@tedgrant2]

"And if thy brother, an Hebrew man or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee and serve thee six years, then in the seventh year thou shalt let him or her go free from thee" "If a man sell his daughter to be a slavegirl, she shall not go out as the male slaves do" So it's not clear to me that slavegirls can go free after six years. Free or not free ?

[@jewsco]

Slave girl is different than slave . Slave girl means sex slavery and you don’t set those woman free as being a arc slave makes them impure and thus they should stay that is what that verse is talking about

[@NinjaPeko22]

Holy Kool-aid Batman! It's Thomas!

[@hy-roller7771]

You know... coming from 90s rave culture it never ceases to make me laugh when i hear the phrase "all christians do x.."🤣🤣

[@jaymeanderson5121]

On behalf of North Dakota...we apologise. 😔

[@topcat2069]

Hey alex, wanna buy a Yo Yo ? or just be one ?? “Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.” - H.L. Mencken “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political/religious and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― *Isaac Asimov b 1920 d 1992

[@davegonnaway6007]

I follow the book of eric

[@Halbmond]

When I talk to German Christians about this, their response is always the same and always different from this caller’s: “but that was the Old Testament, that doesn’t count anymore, it was superseded by the new one.” Seems odd to me that their God would do such a 180 on these topics, and that their religion would still insist on keeping that stuff in the Bible - but I guess it’s progress that they are distancing themselves from that?

[@DawnofInfo]

The thing is that the new testament also has a bunch of disgusting things. It's just an excuse, i would bet that those people never actually read the whole thing because that is the quickest way to become atheist.

[@RozzieBass]

Eye glasses are not "natural"

[@anonymousjohnson976]

If a person did not have food, water, or shelter for themselves or their family, would they voluntarily become a slave in order to supply these to themselves and their family? Also, why would a loving, all-knowing god choose a particular group of people to become his "chosen people?" Wouldn't this god understand that this type of favoritism and partiality cause big problems? Favoritism and partiality in families cause a lot of turmoil and bad feelings.

[@glenhill9884]

You don't need books or computers to have empathy towards people. Secular morality is all about combining that with well-being. Also, as Matt has said countless times, it's situational ethics at play. So, Alex's remark about "you can't say lying one day is bad and another day good" fails to address that.

[@Theonetruegod-hw2ei]

Get my bibl lol.

[@MichaelTheDane]

To harm, hurt or kill another person is not always wrong.

[@pacificwolfnz]

But to do it for reasons other than self defense or defense of those you love? That is wrong. Because just about any other motive is personal gain of some form.

[@linodinardo4798]

more thomas please... !

[@JamesRichardWiley]

What will happen to our world when fewer people believe an invisible Jewish man lives in the sky? Probably nothing.

[@Gerryjournal]

I defy anybody to point to a person who lives solely by the words of the bible in the 21st century

[@perkeyser2032]

Congratulations.....one year closer to death. :)

[@jmaniak1]

Another tap dancing apologist.

[@steevrawjers]

jmaniak1 true and they need some new taps

[@steveymoon]

I can't help thinking you were far to lenient on this guy for his disgusting views. He is lucky he got you guys and not Matt.

[@sandeman1776]

Who else thought that was Tosh.0 at first glance?

[@MrKit9]

I am far more moral than the Bible.

[@MrKit9]

@Truthus Maximus Thank you for that mental lump of cat turd. You may fuck off now!

[@horsepowerenthusiast6933]

@Truthus Maximus Morality and empathy for the better people is subjective, NOT objective.

[@horsepowerenthusiast6933]

@Truthus Maximus For what? We can decide what is better for society without some divine dictator.

[@horsepowerenthusiast6933]

@Truthus Maximus Simple. COMMON SENSE. Even if I were to believe in God, I'd still have opinions and question what is right and wrong. Murder is wrong because it not only hurts the ones who loves that individual, but feeds off fear to the open public. Rape is wrong because it inflicts pain to the one who's witnessing it threshold. If I ever came across that scenario, I'd definitely put a stop to it even if he had a weapon. Life is about choices, and we are the deciders of our own destiny and paths we choose. I don't see how atheism is in the wrong when all it comes down to is our self notion of morality.