What Happens if a Client Confesses to Murder? | Counselor Limits of Confidentiality

[@Cuestar]

I love how measured Dr. Grande is with his wording. "If you're standing next to someone who's wanted for murder, that's not always a safe place to be."

[@jeffday9147]

Cuestar Exactly you'd have to be nuts to tell a therapist the truth anyway

[@MattieCooper10000]

He's just perfect!

[@melissasw64]

"measured." That is the perfect term.

[@neuralmute]

@N Silva *Must* you bring your ridiculous gender politics into a serious discussion like this? As a crisis counsellor, I assure you that I hold all lives as equal, and all murders as equally heinous. You obviously need some therapy yourself to deal with your issues of anger toward women and low self-esteem.

[@serendipitous_synchronicity]

Measured is a perfect description! Love Dr Grande's objective approach :)

[@camuscat123]

Thank you for pointing out how important the clinician's safety is. The difficulty is when a client makes ambiguous statements which seem threatening...but not in an explicit manner. This seems a rare event...but...who knows? Thank you for discussing this topic with such clarity.

[@blahsomethingclever]

The true danger is dealing with mental disease. It's why therapists have 10x sluicing risk. Though that's hard to statistically separate from somewhat unusual individuals attracted to study this field in the first place

[@MichelleMyBelle2.0]

@@blahsomethingclever Sluicing risk? What is that?

[@cashel5232]

@@MichelleMyBelle2.0 I think he meant suicidal

[@alexmurphy5289]

He meant suicidal but he’s wrong either way. Psychiatric doctors have the highest suicide rate of any mental health professional, and I couldn’t find any statistics related to counseling increasing anyone’s suicidal tendencies.

[@randomizer1666]

Bottom line, patient confidentiality is super easy to break, never tell a psychologist anything you wouldn't be comfortable telling the police.

[@patrickburton1401]

That’s not true lmfao unless you’re looking to continue your bad behavior and aren’t actually looking for help then sure thing.

[@kevindube7096]

It’s not “super easy to break”. Remember all those papers you sign at the bottom of? These tell you exactly where confidentiality begins & ends. There is always a list of crimes you can’t admit to without having to be reported that you’ll see... unless you skipped over them like a Terms Of Service while installing new software

[@DutchmanAmsterdam]

@@patrickburton1401 So you are actually saying it IS true.

[@patrickburton1401]

@@DutchmanAmsterdam then why would you be seeking professional help to being with

[@IndagoCo]

If you are in the situation in which you have to listen to this bit of advice, you should turn yourself in.

[@ClandestineGirl16X]

you must work hard getting all these videos out! thank you so much for them. they are so educational and interesting. Thank you, Dr. Grande!!

[@jemgem9593]

"Protective privilege ends where public protection..." Can't remember the rest but that was a real tongue twister x

[@MsSwitchblade13]

One person's rights end where another person's begins. That's basically the stipulation our rights in the US.

[@tsurugizaki]

Several months ago I had an incident with my girlfriend which culminated in me trying to put my hands around her neck. She managed to pin me down so I didn't cause any damage, but I was still horrified afterwards when I realised what I had just tried to do. I've never tried to do anything like that in my life otherwise. A couple weeks ago I told my university counselor about this incident in an attempt to figure out ways to deal with my anger. She ended up telling me that if I didn't put some distance between me and my girlfriend for a couple weeks she would have to report me to the university or the police, despite the incident having taken place over half a year ago. For better or worse I had some family matters to attend to anyway, so I had to visit my parents for a week. But the remaining faith I had in counselors (which was already low due to previous bad experiences) was wiped out after that.

[@rebeccashields9626]

Well yeah. You commited an assault and battery and you’re surprised she wasn’t going to say “oh okay totally fine no problem?” If you can’t stop from putting your hands around someone’s neck then you need to be single until you have attained a level of self control that you no longer do so. Period. Full stop. Seeing as how you should have done jail time I’d say you can call yourself pretty dang lucky. If I was your girlfriend you’d have a felony record now.

[@kathypayne6148]

I have mixed feelings about this because the OP went for help so obviously they were remorseful and wanted to figure things out. The counsellor was obviously concerned and needed to provide some guidance here as well. I agree with Rebecca though that if I was the girlfriend there would be an assault charge but the poster really didn’t explain the incident either so we don’t know who the aggressor is in the situation. I’m not sticking up for abusive people at all but it’s not always obvious what happened from a very short narrative. Hence mixed feelings.

[@otto_jk]

@@rebeccashields9626 assault and battery very rarely lead to actual jail time if there isn't grievous bodily harm present. And if the attack of the original commenter was incompetent enough to not cause harm to his girlfriend it would likely be charged just as an assault.

[@TDDMS]

Here's something even worse than a client confessing to a murder, what happens when a client confesses to listening to Nickelback? What happens to the client at that point? What about the therapist? Does (s)he have to get decades of therapy at that point?

[@sineadlock8423]

I'm dead lmaooo

[@blackbaron2572]

Most underrated comment ever. Come on, people now, people now, come on. Shld be at least 1k likes

[@gracetaveo2733]

Lmaoo

[@grantrogers1858]

Imagine going to therapy for months being absoulutely silent through each session then one day: "i have a confession... I listen to nickleback"

[@sineadlock8423]

@@grantrogers1858 "I'm sorry but we're going to have to hospitalise you. This is not rational behaviour"

[@FalL0utB0yDRUMA]

My great uncle was a psychiatrist. He would never tell me any stories but he did say that one time when he was watching the news there was a certain list of the top 10 most wanted criminals in our city and 4 of them were his patients.

[@auset808]

Thank you Dr. Grande. 🌷 ☯️ Always informative. Confidentiality should not apply to murderer, or abuser- truly - the doctors have ethical obligations to absolutely report those people ... I wish the issues would be just black and white.

[@TheseFourWalls]

Another amazing video, Dr. Grande. 😊 On a side-note: I heard you mention you've got an upcoming video on C-PTSD coming out... I'm so excited about that, and I was just curious if you've got any idea on when it'll be coming. (No rush. You put so much into your content, so I know these things take time. I just don't hear C-PTSD talked about by a lot of KZbinrs, and to have a Dr. on KZbin discussing this debilitating disorder, a Dr. I respect... Well, I'm feeling like a kid before Christmas. :)

[@lewistyler462]

When I start watching your videos Dr. Grande, I find that I cannot stop, very fascinating.

[@leighblacklocke7190]

Follow ethics instead of Chase the money.Your integrity is appreciated in all of your videos. Thank you for speaking on some rough aspects of the counseling profession.

[@GamesCooky]

So it all boils down to whether the client is still an active threat to either himself or those around him? It's a tricky situation to be in when someone is having homicidal urges. Many probably don't even know if they should bring it up. It's not like you can just tell the psychiatrist that: "Hey, so it's been really tempting to just go out and murder some random people lately" I'm sure that would raise all kinds of alarms.

[@grumpyschnauzer]

100% confidentiality would encourage the client making a therapist their ally (every bad guy needs an ally, right). The way I see it, therapy should be offered to offenders while in jail… it’s the best possible way to secure safety of the therapist and ensure there is support for the offender to change (equivalent to a substance user trying to quit and use therapy to do so). If you think about it, jail can be a clean slate/rock bottom. If an offender wants to confess a priest is made available and if an offender wants to focus on change a therapist can work with them while in jail. Otherwise, the post session task every week will be “Resist the urge to harm someone.” Therapists are civilians and not armed to protect themselves therefore they become a perfect target for secret keepers of bad antics… making them allies with the misconception that they can prevent someone from doing harm onto another. If they are lucky, maybe they can but if they are not, then what? Their moral conscience is marred by the notion they are covering up for the bad guy… that’s gotta bring some unhealthy family dynamic trauma into this not to mention their ability to concentrate on other cases. Think about it… a cop comes up on a perp… he draws his gun for safety. Therapists come up on a perp, they close the door behind them and sit it out with them one hour, each week, unprotected. Backwards. The therapy field has made disposable human beings the norm. ONE PERSON is supposed to be the catch all for rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and people who are trying to kill themselves? Is there not something twisted about this? At least a plane gets a pilot and copilot, a cop a partner, and a doctor a nurse. What do therapists get? A pad of paper and a pen! 😂 Therapists are sages, not saints… come in for your 5 minute piece of sage advice and be on your way. The irony. I’ve met people who did harm others and they turned their life around from being in jail… those people changed because of their own volition.

[@gcham1209]

I

[@gcham1209]

dr grande, can u plz reply here w the words, capitalizing the O, C, E, A, and N? sorry to be a pain

[@gcham1209]

openness to experience, conscienciousness, extroversion, AND neurotocism? doc? lolz

[@johkonut]

@@gcham1209 last one is Agreeableness.

[@gcham1209]

@@johkonut oh ok. i think i figured it out awhile ago. is that the 1 i missed? if so, thank you

[@edgreen8140]

In Illinois the warning of those who may be harmed was important. We had a gang member on the psych ward no visitors were allowed.

[@michaelknapp3702]

Ultimately, the BEST advice “seek supervision” from someone more experienced in this kind of dilemma than you!

[@TheGalWithTheBlueCat]

I‘m going to have a question regarding counceling. I live in a german speaking country. In german you have two forms of „you“ when talking to another person. A „polite/formal-you“, considered the official form of talking to someone, like, let‘s say, your boss, an elderly person, a teacher… Someone who is of higher status than you, or who has to be respected. I am pretty sure people working in business companies still use it too. Beside that there‘s a „daily-you“ which people use in day-to-day life. Especially younger generations skip the formal form. Now. In counceling it‘s recommended to the councelor to use the formal form of „you“. It‘s said to make sure to keep a formal distance to the client. Which should be helpful for the therapist and the client. It should set boundaries and make sure the person seeking counceling doesn‘t mistake their councelor for a friend. In my case, I suffered from abuse from a bunch of people up to that point. Mostly people who needed to be respected. After many sessions I noticed I had problems of opening myself up to her. I didn‘t feel comfortable, felt pressured, felt judged. I noticed that it had to do with the form of „you“ I had to use. I asked her about changing to the informal form of you. Especially when telling stories. She refused. In the end talking to her just started to feel wrong and I quit therapy. It wasn‘t possible for me to build any form of connection to that woman. What would you recommend to therapists in different situations like that? Could the rules be bent? Would it have been useful to bend the rules? I‘m especially interested in the question how a non german speaking therapist would see that topic, especially because you don‘t have this language twist to set boundaries. How does an outsider look into that topic? There have to be more ways of setting boundaries.

[@jameswalkinshaw4645]

I think the psychiatric profession needs to clarify when reporting a crime is appropriate. Mental health professionals only have conversations with one (probably unreliable) person to work from. A Doctor’s perspective on risk of reoffending, random versus premeditated, drug use, etc. shouldn’t be relevant - the judgement of a Doctor can’t be a substitute for the legal system. Put another way, one person, listening to another person without any other evidence to work from is a recipe for injustice

[@petraarkian7720]

I agree, particularly reporting a potential crime as I think that the fear of prosecution for "failure to warn" makes clinicians really jumpy and therefore leads to clients not truely expressing themselves. Like, for instance, how are clients meant to express anger or suicidal ideation (two of the most common reasons to seek therapy) if those are also two things that would immediately justify breaking confidentiality? There should be a much clearer line drawn such as "the client must be making a direct threat with a method and timeline" not just ideation. So ie. Client says they will kill themselves by hanging next week or client says they want to beat up their ex girlfriend when she gets home tonight but not client has a history of anger and is currently mad at girlfriend or client is considering suicide before a major exam but doesn't know how. All three components: time, course of action, and intent should be stated in the report. (I think this would also help protect clinicians because I doubt failure to warn cases almost ever occur if these three criteria are met. Generally speaking the practicioner could use one of these as a defence.)

[@georgettecarmello4683]

Can you comment on Leaving Neverland? We know so much more about the psychology of abuse than we did in the 90s. I wonder how this would be handled in 2019.

[@lindamoses3697]

Wow! I would hate to be a therapist and listen to anything like that.I would never dare see them again.

[@addie_is_me]

You make ethics sound more fluid than I think they are, but maybe personal ethics are different than clinical standards (is that a thing). Oh, professional ethics vs personal. I can’t believe they are not the same. I can’t believe it’s so hard to not know what direction to take depending on the circumstances.

[@frenstcht]

I _want_ to see the logic behind this sort of confidentiality. On the one hand: Deny people closure and justice for the death of a loved one, and thereby put their mental health in grave jeopardy; deny justice to someone who was murdered, raped, _inter alia._ On the other hand: protect the mental health of the perpetrators. Think of it this way: two people need a liver transplant, one is an unrepentant alcoholic junk-food gobbler, the other tries to be reasonably healthy. Who should get the liver? When granting a positive right causes a negative harm, society might be better served if that right is changed to a privilege.

[@gigi9301]

Good one! I think the client can decide when they are ready to disclose, since they are all required to sign the disclosures at the beginning of therapy. In this manner, the client is actually making the decision (in most cases, when they are competent enough....but then, wouldn't they be able to claim insanity, and that they didn't know what they were signing, and that they couldn't be accountable for the action(s)? I know the legal definition of insanity for crimes is very strict, but what about for signing the disclosure in the first place?

[@lynnes1864]

The idea is to not make the client afraid of being honest with the therapist. Without confidentiality, nobody would trust their therapist. Obviously if the person is a danger to others, you have to say something. But theoretically there could be plenty of situations in which someone who wouldn't ordinarily kill someone does it once. So they've killed someone but they aren't a danger to anyone else so in that case there would be a duty NOT to report. And you can't make it a privilege instead of a right because if it's a privilege the therapist can set any rules they want based on whether they think the client is a good person or not.

[@frenstcht]

@@lynnes1864 That is absolutely repugnant. That a murderer's feelings has any value whatsoever in the face of the harm they've created is disgusting and truly indefensible. There is no reason why society should be calibrated to the worst among us.

[@lynnes1864]

@@frenstchtthen don't become a therapist. Surgeons still have to sew up terrible people and enemies during war time. It's called professional ethics.

[@frenstcht]

@@lynnes1864 I dare you to come up with a worse analogy. Your reasoning isn't internally consistent.

[@MattieCooper10000]

I really appreciate these videos. Suppose, hypothetically, he came into your apartment armed with a knife and you had to use the crowbar and whack him 67 times before burying his body in the Santa Cruz mountains near Bonny Doon. It would be self-defense, right? Thank you!

[@MattieCooper10000]

@@PutinsMommyNeverHuggedHim A very special friend.

[@networkedperson]

Duty of care to the patient includes maintaining confidentiality, which means no records of the crime and don't share the info with a supervisor.

[@Slarti]

I felt really uncomfortable watching this because it is my firm belief that you have a duty to report a crime if it is confessed. Otherwise you are putting yourself in the position of the arbiter of ethics and that is not your role as a therapist - that is the role of the law.

[@reneeharold7335]

Slartblartlast Exacty criminals aren't supposed to confess to psychiatrists or priests anyway. They should have a religion where the try to communicate and confess to spirits directly, a criminal that confesses to the living is dumb anyway.

[@bwktlcn]

Long ago, I worked for Ma Bell, my first “real” job. There’s a thing called the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. The way it was explained to us is like this: if you hear Barney and Fred in the hallway, discussing how they are going to kill Barney’s wife for the insurance, you tell the police, you’ve done your civic duty. If you are working on a phone line and overhear the same exact conversation and call the cops, you are admitting to a felony, because you have violated the ECPA and would probably be in more trouble than they would be for conspiracy. We used to have water cooler discussions about it...at what point would you risk jail?

[@brianjonker510]

Thinking you are a mandated reporter for felonies or if there is a suspicion of the client hurting others or himself.

[@nameunknown7]

It should be this simple. Anyone who has already committed a violent or serious crime should automatically be considered a threat and a doctor should absolutely be legally able to turn that person in.

[@Saint_Magnapinna]

That would be wrong. A counselor/therapist is a health professional and has no right to violate patient privacy.

[@nameunknown7]

@@Saint_Magnapinna not when that person is a risk to other people. And anyone who has already committed murder should be considered a risk to other people. Turning in a murderer and protecting other people from a murdered is NEVER wrong. Even if that murdered told their therapist.

[@tonypalomo8353]

Dr. Grande never took into account whether the client who committed the crime was truly remorseful. Granted, it is hard or even impossible to know whether someone is really remorseful and psychopaths are masters at faking sympathy, but still I think it's something that a counselor ought to take into account. and some counselors do develop a sixth sense at spotting liers.

[@lynnes1864]

You can be remorseful right after but still continue the same behavior patterns. Or you can kill someone because they threatened to kill you, not feel remorse but yet not be a danger to anyone else. So remorse is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is - will this person be likely to kill again? How much remorse they feel doesn't really tell you that.

[@jeffday9147]

If a suspicious death is unsolved how do you know it's a murder? Surely circumstances like weapons, premeditation, other offenders, motivation and pretty much everything else mentioned is irrelevant to whether it's morally right to report a crime. It sounds like you might report a crime after playing judge and jury in your own mind. Don't forget that in a courtroom evidence is heard from all people involved, when you assess someone's guilt or risk to society all your relying on is one client's word and whatever passes as your professional judgment. Based on the previous video this judgment might mean sending the mentally feeble to prison for life.

[@Miollvynir]

Wait, the insurance companies see exactly what you tell your therapist?

[@fairychangeling8337]

My work wanted me to sign a letter giving them access to my medical records. Would they have had access to my mental health treatment? My sessions with my phycitrist? Counciling? Diagnosis? And personal health issues? I didn't let them, it felt so wrong. I deserve for my direct boss to not know any of my medical history. It is confusing when your trying to trust someone with your secrets only for you to not be safe at all. I dont see a psychiatrist, will never have counselling again. And dont tell my dr anything. My secrets stay with me. It's so sad because it's hard enough to open up to a stranger. Now I'm 0n my own again.

[@happysloth3208]

If you’re in the US a job cannot refuse work or discriminate on the basis of your mental health unless you’re unable to your job. Please don’t hold stuff in and keep secrets like that it’s not healthy and it can lead to you getting way, way worse. Trust me, I’ve been there. Also I don’t know your experience, but I had some really good experiences with therapy and it really helped with my anxiety. You just got to find the right therapist/psychiatrist.

[@BeingBetter]

Great video as always. Interesting subject matter.

[@susan9630]

If there is a large reward, wouldn't that create a risk to the clinician?

[@EnviiMissElixer]

We were always taught at uni if it puts them or others at risk no matter the circumstances you report it.

[@CoffeeLover-mz7bk]

Do Health insurance companies really receive copies of Psychotherapy notes? I didn't know that.

[@oogachaka3447]

No, they don't.

[@Geshtafshnifka]

would the wanted person with a juicy reward even go to counseling ?

[@Geshtafshnifka]

E. B. Exactly.

[@jonathanjollimore7156]

I was always under the assumption crimes are not covered

[@TomokoAbe_]

Oh for sure if the court has a order, medical records have to be handed over. The client may also be airing fantasy, or simply testing the clinician. I'm sure state laws in some cases will mandate reporting when it comes to safety issues, but it will also invalidate the confidentiality or breach of trust toward the medical community in general. I mean if a priest heard confession of some crime--he may be obligated to keep it confidential under church orders, but will encourage the person to report the incident to the police.

[@DonPeyote420]

Rule #1 of counseling - No Snitching!

[@codingwithcrystalhill1568]

I'm trying to get a few people to fess up.

[@codingwithcrystalhill1568]

E. B. No but I was sick after eating some soup she made.

[@JeffinTD]

Hand the hot potato question to the poor old supervisor...

[@MrMagistralMalik]

13 Reasons Why Season 3 In A Nutshell

[@MegaDavyk]

What if a 15 year old girl confesses to a mental health counsellor that she falsely accused her step father of molesting her out of spite for being disciplined and that innocent person was still in prison for 10 years and the girl winds up in counselling because of guilt and other poor choices she has made.

[@jemgem9593]

Dr Grande, if this scenario ever happens to you, please, please, take care because your fans care about you so much, please just phone Hercule Poirot and put it in his hands... He'll sort out if, and how, this person (murderous client) needs to be brought to justice ! x

[@sweeabn6736]

So how bout this one. U.S. Army Chaplains cannot report ANYTHING under ANY circumstance but must protect the confidentiality of the counselee at all costs. If a counselee confesses that they are a danger to themselves or to others, the Chaplain is mandated by DODi and AR 165-1 not to report under penalty of United States Code of Military Justice.

[@sarahgupton2552]

Tell your lawyer.

[@ratatataraxia]

This country would be way more organized if we like, all had to follow THE SAME LAWS.

[@kingofkings2934]

Has he cover lawyer confidentially?

[@KennTollens]

2:20 If someone is going to harm other people that can be an exception to confidentiality. Then then you say if a child, elderly or disabled are being harmed. Do they get special protection above everyone else that is being harmed?

[@cynthiaallen9225]

I think it all depends on the circumstances. What if a teen killed an abusive father? I don't think they should go to prison. Same for an abused wife, etc. Has this ever happened to you, Dr. Grande? Kidding.

[@traviszacher6028]

Can you discuss people whomsuffer long term effects of methamphetamine psychosis? I have a friend suffering from this.

[@JustD1zz]

Uh, so, a lot of you have trust issues And that's ok, Honestly (Given some examples). But if you, on free will, are going to a therapist? Please know what is going to happen (And if no one has told you, lemme tell ya now: That one thing your going in for? Isn't the only thing you'll be discussing): Your going in for Therapy. Therapy is a place to be seen, heard, validated and ultimately Helped. Regardless if you get in trouble (If you touched a child or murdered someone) the help won't stop And being arrested is Not the end of the world for you. What was world ending to begin with was the guilt you hoarded for SO long and the shame that followed soon after what it is that you have done. Again, your essentially going in to therapy to confess and be free of your sins (In a way) but also to get help with the emotions surrounding whatever the topic is. Again, being arrested? Is honestly the least of their worries if they are (At this point) willing to confess such things. It's to be redeemed, validated, heard and seen that therapy gives you Or at the very least gives you a direction to go.

[@XanderShiller]

Is it true that every psychologist/psychiatrist ("psychologist") is required to see a psychiatrist annually?

[@cheridehart7771]

Once upon a time I told a boyfriend I didn't want to see him anymore, shortly there after he died in his sleep. I felt like I killed him. He was in his late thirties and he had an aneurism in his sleep.

[@iEatBigTitss]

could you please do the case of skylar neese? this video reminded me of her murder because one of her killers went to the mental hospital because she couldn’t handle what she did. I’m more so interested in what you have to say on how the other girl acted after the murder. thank you as always I enjoyed and learned something new!

[@giacomorossi1967]

When I was about 13 y.o. I started having problems at school, so the school sent me to talk to a psychologist. She promised me she wouldn't tell anybody whatever I'd tell her. So I told her I was having a hard time figuring things out because I had realized I was gay. A few weeks later I found out she had told the Principal, and the Principal told my parents. The lesson I've learnt was: if you can not keep your very secret, don't expect strangers to keep it.

[@nicelydone4846]

When I was 12 I became depressed, my parents took me to a psychologist. I knew she would tell my parents any secrets I had. I held on for months of appointments until she gave up.and figured I was just a depressed teen.

[@roseytwinksmnk2932]

I not sure where you live. But here in Australia that shit is not allowed! My son has seen a child psychologist, and anything my son told the psychologist was confidential. The only loophole would be if he told them anything in regards to hurting himself or others, or if someone was hurting my son, that would be only circumstances where confidentiality would be void.

[@LadyMngwa]

I would say that the "psychologist" was a first-class jerk. Not only unprofessional but also by common morals bad.

[@QED_]

@Giacomo Rossi: There's a circle in Hell reserved for those kind of people . . .

[@UnrebornMortuus]

good lesson taught you not to trust anyone i bet

[@jenniferloretto5939]

40% of murders unsolved?! Yikes

[@KhalerJex]

In Brazil is 90%

[@Rellikan]

@@KhalerJex I wonder about Mexico.

[@ashleyk8406]

That’s just the ones that are reported too I assume (as in likely excluding prostitutes, etc.).

[@sharonrose2751]

Funny, my thought was, hmm, a four in ten chance I wouldn’t get caught? Nope, the odds aren’t in my favour, lol.

[@RemixedVoice]

@@spiritmatter1553 It's way easier to get away with murder in rural areas compared to cities ;)

[@Cabrono]

I asked this same question to my shrink and she gave me a funny look and said, "Yes, of course I would have to report it!" (She knew I was asking more due to my fascination with true crime than anything personal, haha.)

[@MsSwitchblade13]

When I was a teenager, a psychiatry told me that too. She said "whatever you tell me I'm going to tell your mom" so I said what's the point then, she wrote me prescriptions for three different drugs and sent me out. I was 15yrs old

[@toris5605]

@@MsSwitchblade13 this makes me glad I wasn’t able to see a psychiatrist until I was 25 (due to not having health insurance). I can’t imagine being that young and dealing with that

[@mosaicgirl4002]

...so you say!😂🤣👍

[@kevindube7096]

@@MsSwitchblade13 it’s shitty but at that age we had no ability to legally consent to any treatment without an adult’s knowledge. The paperwork would’ve looked real different just a few years later, but sometimes people 18+ still get tricked into signing a release so their parent hears everything and I imagine that feeling is the same - “so what’s the point?”

[@rwhooshbait6982]

“Of course I would have to report it”-she said nervously as she glances to a cabinet containing a gun

[@MsBettman]

I have been in this situation. Even after their confession to the police in my presence (they wanted to meet me at the police station saying that they had something they wanted disclose in an open case) I wasn't sure what to do. People were asking me questions I didn't know if I could or should answer so I didn't. The detectives informed me that in this case, it was not protected information. I even asked them (the client) if they understood their rights and that they can have an attorney present and that they should. They said they understood and continued to disclose information. They were arrested at that time and currently awaiting trial.

[@shanescatsandcannabisfarm2965]

Great job helping 👏 👏 clap

[@emmautterback3927]

I've kinda wanted to google this for a while but google probably already thinks I'm some sort of serial killer based on my search history

[@papawhiskers9994]

right? i just have a curious mind😭

[@Thedreamer20015]

@@papawhiskers9994 y’all will be fine I search up murder and murder videos all the time. I even searched up for hat goes into making a bomb just cause I took chemistry in highschool and the chemistry that goes into bombs and nuclear bombs is just cool af. Space is pretty interesting too ahaha.

[@randomserbianguy5677]

@@Thedreamer20015 to be fair though. I'm sure alot of writers google crazy things all the time, not to mention research and just plain curiosity. Id wager that 99,9% of searched are just searched by curious people as oppose to 0,1% who actually intent to do something harmful with the importation give

[@Thedreamer20015]

@@randomserbianguy5677 lol intent doesn’t really matter when you are trying to build substances or projects that should be revisited. I’m sure if I hate the tools that I could build a bomb with a fair amount of work but it’s just the possibility. Those substances are highly reactive and arr crazy toxic at certain points. Curiously makes sense and I wish I could learn these things cause bombs arr cool, but at the end of the day. It makes a lot of sense that they keep a pretty tight cap on shit like that.

[@randomserbianguy5677]

@@Thedreamer20015 so, what? Are you saying we're not safe searching about bombs? Because I was just doubling down on your original comment

[@Snake3yesEddie]

Out of all the people who asked this question, I wonder how many ended it with, “Asking for a friend”?

[@john_blues]

As lawyers like to say, "It depends".

[@crustbucket2725]

I cant imagine the stress of being a lawyer with knowing all the loopholes. The career I'm going for does require me to be in court tho sometimes oof

[@SeanKula]

My engineering professors say the same thing. "It depends" really applies to everything it seems.

[@louissanderson719]

@@SeanKula yep. That’s usually the experts view on things!

[@Thedreamer20015]

@@louissanderson719 well it’s hard to just assign unanimous decision like right or wrong because there are usually hundreds if not thousands of factors that go into it. In general. I don’t think I’d have much problem defending a murderer but I draw the line at people who have done things to kids and that’s about it. But even than say the kid was trying to rob an old man and the old man shot and killed the kid. I’d still defend that old man. But I ain’t defending some child molester or something.

[@louissanderson719]

@@Thedreamer20015 I agree. I wasn’t being sarcastic or anything

[@ananimity7332]

I've wondered about this and how it works. I learn something new with each of your videos! I like your mind Dr. Grande :)

[@proxyofdeath6319]

As someone who wants to be a therapist (mixed specialties), this was very interesting/informative. Thank you!

[@caracopland710]

How many and which specialties were you thinking of achieving pls? Curious... 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@DK-sg3oe]

Being a butcher nd a psychiatrist

[@Pugetwitch]

This is exactly why I decided to switch my majors. I'm a DV survivor and changed my major first to radiology after leaving my abuser in 2017, and now thanks to covid which popped up literally right when I was healed enough to go back to finish my degree (covid definitely triggered my hypochondria, OCD, and comorbid ASD) I've once again switched majors, this time away from health care all together. Project management, here I come! 🤣 Good luck to you, LMPHs are the unsung heroes in our world.

[@KarkatVantasBitches]

"Yeah I'm on the run from the law because I killed someone, but I can't cancel my appointment with my therapist, those last-minute fees are murder!"

[@lunardio]

michael desanta 👍

[@aleks0_o879]

LMAO 🤣🤣🤣

[@goldenice9283]

You don’t have to be on the run when you’re a murderer. Cold cases are a thing

[@louisasmiles]

Hahahahahah

[@KatyYoder-cq1kc]

I am a victim of chemical warfare using energy weapons made by China and Russia and undergoing harassment 24/7 with continued rape by lesbians, Woke military and clergy. Please report and help

[@ms.shineray]

Very off topic but can you do a video on selena quintanilla and the person that killed her, it is very interesting how their friendship went from one thing to another.

[@mgray999]

I think she was a psychopath who saw that Selena could get close to her fans. I also would like to hear his opinion on it.

[@franmellor9843]

Reminds me of a case in america with 3 friends ,one of the friends called skylar was stabbed to death by shoaf and Eddie ,very strange case indeed and very sad

[@iEatBigTitss]

M Gray definitely not a psychopath. she had too many strong emotions towards Selena to be one. I would more so say she could be a sociopath

[@azariazulu]

Yes!

[@AlmostHuman_NF]

I have always wondered about this. Awesome topic 😊 Amazing discussion as always. Thank you for putting out such interesting topics with education.

[@HvrriMusic]

he broke the formula by saying "Todays question is" instead of "Todays questions asks"

[@michealhenry3132]

He wanted to see if someone noticed.

[@witwisniewski2280]

So, the murderous person can't seek help. Our law enforcement system seems based on situations getting out of hand first before enforcement happens. Is there a way to estimate how many murders could be prevented with professional intervention?

[@shawarmaboy4844]

Very good point

[@peggygenoway]

There are soldiers who believe the "killing climate" of war allows for other crimes to be excused. Enough said.

[@nodiggity9472]

Client confidentiality must always be paramount. Counsellers KNOW that being party to distasteful or unpleasant secrets is a part of their job. And with that professional aspect of the job, goes the unspoken implication that in such a situation, they are personally responsible for bending those rules. Rules are there to maintain the profession's integrity, whilst protecting any individual professional who is burdened by this dichotomy of conscience over consequence.. Work it out, people. Rules are there to get people to stop and think. If you think you need to bend or break those rules, do it. Just do it in a way that allows you enough plausible deniability to remain inviolate, but still be able sleep at night.

[@yousnortthedsnotofdirtyric3382]

If someone confessed to me that they got away with murder, rape, or molesting a child I would turn them in because a victim getting justice is more important to me than a career.

[@grogsmashrock7240]

th1smomentisfate sometimes a victim cannot speak up, and someone using their voice for them is far more responsible than staying quiet.

[@oliverxhmll]

I would also not be able to live with myself having that knowledge, but you saying that this person told you that is not enough proof if there isn't any evidence and of course, they'll deny doing it. They might still get away with it. They weren't caught because there wasn't any evidence against them

[@candacehyatt1475]

It’s not just about ending your career. You could also face large fines and even jail time due to HIPAA violation. It’s different if they tell you they have harmed a child/ elderly person or plan to harm someone. Duty to warn or duty to protect may apply. As Dr Grande stated many times, it is important to seek supervision. These situations are not black and white. There are so many variables that may impact the way you act. As clinicians we have a duty to treat our clients. If for whatever reason we feel we cannot then we must refer them to the most appropriate service/clinician.

[@mariamm7695]

Steamy Senpai yeah except “someone using their voice for them” is not going to achieve justice. That isn’t enough evidence to have someone tried or convicted of anything.

[@grogsmashrock7240]

Mariam M what do you think anonymous reports are for

[@trmp9923]

I think its really sad if someone is actively trying to become a better person by seeing a therapist twice a week but then has to keep things to himself... He can't really be present in the situation and the therapy is really going nowhere. I think you should be able to trust your therapist 100%, otherwise what's the freaking point. And by avoiding therapy the person has no chance of improving and might commit more crimes.

[@ShotaroAsakura]

This is the dumbest thing I heard in a long time

[@trmp9923]

@@ShotaroAsakura be specific.

[@grumpyschnauzer]

Therapists can’t always treat people who use drugs with psychotherapy until the client makes a commitment to quitting, of course relapse is possible. But the same is for people committing crimes. You can’t do a crime and pardon your burden by unloading on a therapist and expecting to go out and do the same thing… that’s counterproductive

[@HeatherDMorris]

I told a counselor of sexual abuse by a bunch of ppl when I was growing up and how i myself as a kid took advantage of other kids my age. I didn't know better and was just doing what I was taught. The counselor disappeared and i havent heard from him again. Not sure if a 8 year old is breaking the law with another 8 year old but ..he wasnt comfortable obviously.Someone deleted everything said in the on line session where you can go back and review the conversations and it wasnt me who deleted it .

[@reymarckessaguirre5082]

Are you still here? Im curious about ur case as it happened as an 8 year old. Did he breached confidentiality?

[@seansingh8862]

The abduction, rape and murder of Sheree Beasley (6yo girl) was one instance where the only non-circumstantial evidence against the perp was a confession made to his psychotherapist (although he later also confessed to a cellmate). The courts ended up accepting the evidence, which wasn't great jurisprudence, but at least had the benefit of locking up a POS for the rest of his life. I personally thought that an acquittal followed by a lynching would have been a better outcome for all. She was abducted less than a mile from where I now live, and her body was dumped in a spot that I've driven past many many hundreds of times - the area used to be farmland, but it is now quite a trendy winery.

[@melissasw64]

Can a counselor be charged if he knows that a person is dangerous, doesn't tell, and the person reoffends?

[@pixieonthemoon8633]

Duty to warn is law in a lot of states

[@melissasw64]

@@pixieonthemoon8633 Yes. It seems like, regardless of the law, if a counselor didn't warn and a person reoffended---Dang! Can you imagine living with that on your conscience?

[@barnswardrowan3022]

not charged, but one california dr. was sued half a million.

[@lameduck3105]

I'd bet that's mostly complaints addressed at a medical board who can then give the mental health clinician a slap on the wrist or in extreme cases revoke their license. Maybe civil suits could be a possibility too but I doubt state or federal indictments would be made in cases like that unless we're talking extreme negligence (like an active serial killer confessing to his psychiatrist and not be reported to the police).

[@janiscohen-dacosta9822]

Personally I'd work with the client to try to motivate them to report themselves. If that didn't work, well it's definitely a muddy situation. I would probably staff it with other professionals as well as contact my licensing board for guidance. Lets say it is something serious (murder?) I'd want to make sure I followed the appropriate protocol and leave my personal feelings out of it. That's where having good solid professional support really comes in handy.

[@reneeharold7335]

@@PutinsMommyNeverHuggedHim That's what I said "Set a trap for the murderer, trick him into confessing . A murderer would never expect that."

[@kathydove3148]

Such an interesting video Dr. Grande. The conflict between the duty of confidentiality and the duty to protect the public is an interesting one. Thank you for explaining the Tarasoff case, definitely one of the California Supreme Court's most important and well-written decisions ⚖

[@Syd448]

This is so interesting and honestly also terrifying. I couldn’t imagine being a counselor and that coming up with a patient

[@alexanderwhite8320]

Whats terrifying in that? The murder is in past and unless patient discloses he plans to kill therapist, no worries.

[@briattnybrittany6843]

I have always been curious about this topic. Thank you, Dr.! I found your channel today, love the videos I've seen and subscribed. I haven't seen them all yet lol so forgive me if you've done this topic: How do counselors avoid burnouts and depression? Who's there for you? I can imagine sessions become heavy and then you also have a personal life. I've always wondered this...

[@dortesandal4303]

Normally they have supervision, you know when and if their own personal issues are brought into play or they sense manipulation going on - they always have trusted and respected psychiatrists/counsellor to talk to:)

[@kathypayne6148]

I’m a psychotherapist and I have a supervision group that I attend monthly and also have my own therapist I speak to monthly.

[@shannonmayer18]

Because I think that most people who are on the run with a huge reward on their head wouldn't go in to see a counselor

[@Caseyshannon316]

Who is Watching “Monsters : The Lyle and Erik Menendez Story” right now???

[@xivwords5448]

A lot of the times it’s not even true people like to fantasize that there some gangster or a vigilante

[@jeffday9147]

yes

[@jeffday9147]

XIV Words You'd have to be nuts to tell a therapist the truth anyway

[@brianamariiee6481]

They still have to report it though, because you never know when someones lost it enough to actually do something.

[@ddfstar7588]

If i was a murderer i wouldnt tell my lawyer lmao.

[@Hannah-zw9ow]

That’s actually a really bad idea. Your lawyer can’t help you unless they know everything. If you don’t tell them exactly what happened, they won’t know how to defend you, and you could be completely blindsided in court. If you’re concerned about that you’re better off representing yourself.

[@ddfstar7588]

@@Hannah-zw9ow it depends on the circumstances. If they don't got anything on me and its circumstantial then I aint telling him shit and he just does his thing. If they got alot of evidence on me then I guess it doesn't really matter

[@modestyblaise8536]

I don't know anything about this myself, but saw someone mentioning underneath another video that your lawyer apparently can't put you on the stand if they know you're guilty? So it may be better to not tell your lawyer.

[@foxylee]

@@Hannah-zw9ow think legal eagle addressed this, and to my memory his advice was the opposite of yours.

[@mariamm7695]

foxylee I’m an Australian and we’ve only had one case like this ever happen and it was a huge scandal with a royal Commission to follow. The case of “lawyer X”. There’s strict laws and regulations prohibiting legal council from sharing information with the defence that could convict a client. They wouldn’t be able to practice law again and they could be fined or jailed. There’s literally no reason not to tell your lawyer everything.

[@aardvark1956]

One of the most thorough analyses I’ve heard. Outstanding and extremely nuanced.

[@positivepenny5477]

This unfortunately didn't really answer my question. My friend is apprehensive about going to counseling because he doesn't want a paper trail. He's worried, what if something happens in the future and a counselor testifies? What if they have notes about his anger problems and narcissism? He saw a counselor last week who said "you don't want to be diagnosed a narcissist, you don't want that on your record." Now he won't go to counseling...

[@Stranger_In_The_Alps]

If there is any doubt whatsoever, it’s best not to tell a counselor. If he just wants to get some things off his chest, I’ve found the best person to tell is a prostitute.

[@Kalliopa0122]

@@Stranger_In_The_Alps I don’t know if you’re trying to be funny or not, but it sounded a little funny in my head 😂😂 But it also makes sense 😂

[@Stranger_In_The_Alps]

@@Kalliopa0122 it’s a far better use of your money. And a prostitute won’t gaslight you like a therapist does. They just listen.

[@barbnauman705]

Dr. Grande-I'm curious about different behavior traits/norms of people from varying parts of the world. For example: I've had a man in my life for a number of years. His family is Italian, though he was born in the U.S. He can be extremely charming, loving, and charismatic. However, he can also be quite volatile, angry, demonstrative, and loud. I've heard it said-jokingly- if you tie the hands of an Italian man behind his back, he'll be unable to speak :) As I've talked with other people of Italian descent, they have confirmed that most Italians do everything "large." They love and laugh large, and their negative emotions are equally large. Is there any evidence to support that certain ethnic groups are more prone to any given set, or types, of behaviors? My ancestry is largely English, Swedish, and German. My relatives seem to have a much calmer overall demeanor, though pretty stubborn and driven! Is it nature over nurture, nurture over nature.....or a combination of both?? I'd appreciate any insights you have into this topic. Thanks for all you do. I appreciate your work so very much! Kind Regards~

[@lisalph8922]

Barb, I too am German, British Isles and Swedish + Finnish. My family can be very negative. But then, my mom is a covert narcissist so that's probably a big part of it. Anyway, we'll criticize each other to death but not usually in a loud way. More of a matter of fact way. It's annoying as hell. It would be interesting to hear about how ancestry might affect behavior. However, I think that this is a politically incorrect mine field. Stereotyping people from different countries/ancestry is likely taboo in psychiatry.

[@karagraham9764]

Its my understanding that people of Latin American descent are the same way. Very passionate in their love and hate

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Barb, what a great question. I've always believed Italians are passionate in all emotions.

[@SidheKnight]

As an Argentinian with Italian ancestry, I can confirm, we ARE like that, to some degree at least.

[@calebpaulsen3159]

Check the dominant religion of the area. Not all practice but all feel the pressures to fall in line. Could be related.

[@elisamastromarino7123]

Thank you, Dr Grande. 🌹👍 I hope to never walk any of those high wires.

[@PassedTime2788]

I would suggest any therapist in this type of bind should get an expert attorney from their licensing board. Obviously outside of active threats

[@danielraypickrel4316]

"If , the person standing next to you is a murder, you may not be safe." On this we agree Dr.

[@andreastamper9908]

Were you ever afraid of a client?

[@Miguel195211]

With all these factors and limitations, the key here is Keep Your Mouth Shut.

[@dumonceauxable]

I have been close friends with a priest for many years. I asked him several years ago this same question pertaining to someone going to confession in a Catholic church and confessing to a murder. Strict confidentiality is the rule for a priest hearing confession. This priest told me (this occurred in Oregon several years ago) that the only crimes a priest must report is those involving child abuse or elder abuse. In standard confession the priest doesn't actually see the confessor because of the screen in place and I've never heard of a priest jumping up and throwing open the door to the confessional room so I'm not sure how this would work. ??

[@suehuber7722]

I heard that priests hearing confession, should report murder confessed. But that could be different now

[@lsb2623]

You keep it a secret and let the story roll on. It could be super juicy and go on and on. Maybe even push them to do it again... after all, once you have a taste of being god you are going to want more! You could be entertained for years. It would be like being in a dramatic thriller movie.

[@opinionatedmurderafficiona5773]

I met a person who was a clinician at a residential, and this 15/16 year old said that he was planning to run away (from the residential), the clinician then said she had to report that and then apparently he grabbed a pair of scissors and tried to stab her with it. He was charged with Attempted Murder but was charged as a juvenile not an adult

[@GenXfrom75]

I've always kept in mind the "mandated reporter" status of professionals and always assumed that ALSO meant if someone confesses a crime to a therapist, that therapist would HAVE to report that.

[@yesterdayitrained]

Mandated reporters are required to report abuse or suspected abuse related to children. That’s it. It doesn’t cover anything else. You probably should form your understanding based on facts, not just a one-sided decision that makes sense to you.

[@nikkih6907]

@@yesterdayitrained that's not accurate- mandated reporting includes vulnerable adults

[@yesterdayitrained]

@@nikkih6907 I stand corrected.

[@brad885]

It depends on the crime. Robbery, theft, assault, and drug use would be things the client probably needs to "confess" to you to help them get over it mentally. Ultimately, your goal is to improve the mental well being of your client. Murder and rape are two red flags, though I would first give my client the chance to turn themselves in first.

[@k.ambriz9789]

Thank you for doing this video. Seems like a lot of people on here have different ideas. As an intern I heard from a supervisor who had a client confessed to murder. They did not ask any questions about it. I thought that clinicians would know not to report.