What if Ancient Greece Industrialized?

[@WhatifAltHist]

For all the statements about how Egypt wasn't socialist, if you are using leftist theory, that is accurate. However, I don't care about any ideology's theories and I merely look at its results. Ptolemaic Egypt in structure was quite similar to the actual socialist regimes of history. The state controlled the distribution of grain and turned agriculture into a command economy. The state controlled production of artisanal goods and manufacturing, demanding quotas from artisans. If that's not a Communistic ideology, I don't know what is. If the results are similar, I see no purpose to arguing over the words people are saying. The main difference is private ownership of slaves among the elite, which is frankly not super dissimilar to the massive slave systems seen in the Soviet Union or Communist China with the gulags and concentration camps, with the main difference being the slaves were controlled by the Central State in these nations while in Ptolemaic Egypt it was owned by the elite.

[@JSJBCwrite]

damn, what a fucking idiot.

[@EliteMax2]

Damn, what the hell happened to this channel, has it always been like this?

[@davincicode2997]

holy fuck, take an economics class and ask the professor (who will most likely not be a lefty) if you can call any country in ancient times "socialist" or "capitalist"

[@WhatifAltHist]

​@@davincicode2997 If they behave in similar manners, why not? Terms are just things we invented to describe underlying truths.

[@francescoresente6913]

Well, defining socialism without using leftist theory is useless and can lead to misunderstanding. If the Egyptian workers had the control of the means of producion it would have been Socialism, but they didn't, so Egypt was not socialist.

[@thebeautifulone1916]

"What if Ancient Greece Industrialized?" *Steampunk 77 B.C.*

[@thebeautifulone1916]

*[cyberpunk 2077 soundtrack played with a lyre]*

[@ominosentenzioso5100]

@@thebeautifulone1916 Wake the fuck up spartan, we have a city to burn

[@jedisentinel4879]

@@ominosentenzioso5100 *polis

[@williamm1014]

I freaking love this comment XD

[@simongrundyreiner]

The Beautiful One you mean cyberpunk 77?

[@darrynmurphy2038]

" The industrial revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for society" - Diogenes the Unabomber

[@christiandauz3742]

Uh no, humanity has just leapfrogged over 2.2k years ahead The world would be divided between Greece, India, Persia, China and Carthage

[@L_mattox]

Yeah, I can definitely see Diogenes as the Unabomber.

[@satyakisil9711]

Reject modernity, return to pot.

[@RyuuTenno]

that escalated rather quickly 😂

[@cheezoncrack1]

LMAO I was expecting this comment and I haven’t been let down

[@Daniel-jm7ts]

This what if scenario is basicly the greatest Greek fanficion ever done.

[@greekswaglord-dathistoryla201]

As a Greek i agree :))

[@Giganfan2k1]

Ironic since to make this scenario happen they would have never had three of their greatest thinkers.

[@trentn1127]

i mean if you ignore the collapse of greece in favour of their rival gaining global dominance, ye.

[@dolphindiverbct8297]

and Carthiginaian

[@justinbeleski7511]

Rise Carthage RISE!!!!

[@Armorius2199]

So Greeks discover, the steam and inadvertently create the Carthaginian colonial empire!

[@drswag0076]

plus a unified Celtic state.

[@OTW18]

They got the idea from the Canaanites.

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

@The Martial Lord of Loyalty The celts had no capacity to unite, same as the germanic tribes.

[@matteo.d.h6770]

Fun fact they also created computer

[@TheTimurdempire]

What if Carthage colonized Brazil used all the people it settled there to beat Rome now seems like he could make it a alternative scenario

[@innosam123]

The Suez would probably be built by the Athenians as well, since it doesn’t require locks or complex machinery, just a lot of effort to dig a giant trench to let ocean-going ships through (a pseudo-Suez was actually built by ancient Egypt), so they would get a colonial empire by expanding into the Indian Ocean (East Africa, India, Indonesia, Australia, Arabia) as well as likely moving down the Nile to Ethiopia and Sudan via railroads.

[@diegoidepersia]

well.. the channel of the pharaohs still existed by that point, i dont think that would be necessary

[@spinach4892]

Exactly

[@innosam123]

@@diegoidepersia The Channel of the Pharaohs couldn't take larger vessels.

[@rogermon3s141]

Fredinno so they simply expand it

[@innosam123]

Roger Schmuck The route doesn’t make sense for the Athenians either. It turns east into the Nile. May as well build a new, bigger one.

[@asterixs259]

Imagine Jesus preaching his parables through tv just after the industrial revolution.

[@christiandauz3742]

You mean after the A.I. revolution. Religion would be mostly dead by then

[@galffygergojozsef7816]

lol,it would be cool tho

[@yonathanrakau1783]

@@christiandauz3742 lol no, religion probably taken other form rather than what we perceive rather dissapearing. I mean religion is somekind of philosophy anyway we had ideologies mirroring religion just not even half a century ago so whycant this have AI as a messiah

[@christiandauz3742]

@@yonathanrakau1783 Uh, religion is dying out in the most civilized parts of the world today That process has started much earlier in this Alternate Timeline. The Greeks and later the Carthaginians, Persians, Indians and Chinese would start pumping out invention after invention rapidly changing humanity Eventually, slavery would have disappeared around 200 BCE. Poverty is much less problematic Cordite and dynamite plus mass-produce Plate armor ensures that the Barbarians and Horsemen Nomads are fucked. The civilized nations would start expanding like crazy against their tribal neighbors The world would be divided between the Greeks, Carthage, Persia, India and China. Humanity would be much more mixed and have a lot of Gene-Editing so no dumb Hillbilly from Mississippi The Atheist Ancients then colonize space and achieve 22nd century tech before 10 CE

[@yonathanrakau1783]

@@christiandauz3742 what you are saying civilized is actually the ones that have more social security there is literally article for that. Religiousity died when people feel that they are socially secured since the role of religion itself is to based life on a moral level and give them purpose to handle bad life. This changes when your life become harder so post ww3 world would have religion especially those impacted with it. Also the one that gave settled people advantage over nomadic were the gunpowder as it is in this video its unlikely to have gun powder simply just by industrializing you need good amount of time for that. Also you are forgetting rome ever get wiped out by the parthians eventhough they are outnumbering them and have heavier armor so i dont think theres much differences in this one

[@AllenorLP]

A thing You overlooked: where would they get the rising amount of coal from? I don't think this Empire would run on charcoal.

[@bevbevan6189]

Ukraine

[@MasterOfCydonia]

It isn't overlooked, coal has been used by humans all the way back since the Bronze Age. They would know about coal, and they would use it. The question you should be asking is, would they discover the potential power of coal beyond that of wood? Or, on a flip side, perhaps they discovered, and had a means to contain, Natural Gas. That is even more energy dense, and is far more prevalent throughout the world, than coal.

[@mondaysinsanity8193]

You can make an inefficient engine based on charcoal but I assume they'd make the same discoveries as us

[@TapOnX]

They could also try the same place where Greeks get most of their coal today - Greece! Greece has a few lignite fields, which they use for power generation. The obvious problem here is that lignite is not ideal for metallurgy and vehicles, due to the high content of water and low calorific value, so they would need to develop techniques for coal enrichment. Perhaps, in time, they would see much of their industries and population move to Pontic Steppe due to lower cost of production.

[@Newbmann]

Modern day serbia produces heeps of coal and Ukraine to a even greater extent.

[@ecurewitz]

Buddhism may have existed in this timeline because it appeared shortly before the timelines diverged. Confucianism as well. Judaism and Hinduism existed even earlier. But definitely not Christianity or Islam

[@ecurewitz]

@Jonathan Williams Christ almost certainly would not have been born if the timeline changed in the Fifth Century BCE

[@ecurewitz]

@Jonathan Williams nope. He wouldn't have been born in this timeline

[@ecurewitz]

@Jonathan Williams what makes you think it would be wiped out. It would merely be different. Other people wold be born instead of those who were the ancestors of Jesus

[@caiawlodarski5339]

@Jonathan Williams Butterfly effect, not even Mary wouldn't exist in this timeline.

[@ecurewitz]

@@Zach-mw5so Incorrect. Under normal conditions they wouldn't give a shit, but Jesus was messing with the Passover celebrations in Jerusalem, and that could cause trouble in an already unstable province. They wanted to send a message and fast (Don't pull this shit!) the executed him - Roman style. If he was executed by Jews, then he would have been stoned to death. Crucifixion was how Romans dealt with things

[@semi-useful5178]

Praising the sun while wearing a Toga on a steamship, seems cool

[@mollof7893]

\[[T]/

[@joaobaptista320]

Too go to a resort on the Caribbean

[@dominicthompson82]

The average isekai

[@lore2587]

Agree

[@SCOMBAG]

Imagine the plot of this movie: An Egyptian missionary of some sun god religion, wearing a toga made from Indian cotton, takes a steamship to a Carthaginean spa in Cuba, popular with Gallic and Celtic nobles, staffed by Mayan and Toltec workers, before travelling up the Mississippi river to establish a church among the Caddo peoples. Just put history in a blender while were at it. 🙃

[@SacredCowStockyards]

So, I love this timeline and sincerely wish I could endorse it (since it would mean my ancestors aren't hot garbage as Iberia is controlled by Carthage), but I can't. There's an insurmountable problem with it. You don't just need a steam engine and some gears to kickstart an industrial revolution. You need some pretty advanced math to be able to perform sufficiently complex engineering for mechanized factories to work. The Athenians, even if they had been a mercantile power, simply did not have it -- they didn't even have a concept of zero, much less anything even approaching trigonometry. A two-sided kettle that spins around is simple to make. So is a single gearset. They're also not very useful in isolation. I'm not saying they were stupid, far from it. I'm just saying their knowledge simply wasn't advanced enough. The reason STEM has taken hundreds of years to develop to the current point is a single human mind, or even a single generation, just can't create the sheer amount of knowledge needed for it. We require basic principles to be discovered, tested, confirmed, then added to the ledger of accumulated human knowledge so the next generation can build upon the assumptions we modified.

[@loldiamond1017]

................ And that's why it takes several centuries of technological development in this alternate history before they industrialize. We can assume that with a more free-thinking Greek civilization they could have gained that knowledge after several centuries.

[@christiandauz3742]

Had the Bronze Age Collapse never happened it would have happened much faster

[@adriancampos8640]

@@christiandauz3742 It would have never happened, because the priest class wouldn't have liked to lose power.

[@christiandauz3742]

@@adriancampos8640 Then there would be a power struggle/class warfare between Priests vs Middle-class

[@adriancampos8640]

@@christiandauz3742 That would be the case if the priests ever allowed a middle class to form in the first place, which they probably wouldn't.

[@stolman2197]

I guest lecture at an archeology field school, I tell them primitive doesn't mean stupid.

[@pascalbaryamo4568]

S Tolman that should be basic knowledge given by schools...

[@stolman2197]

@@pascalbaryamo4568 it's isn't, my educational background is sciences, and I'll teach friction fire to these college kids (3rd year ) and start talking about the intuitive grasp of physics needed for that and half of them just look confused. (Most of them are studying at a jumped up community college in So. California, so I should keep my expectations low. )

[@PandorasFolly]

@@stolman2197 I got something up your alley. Look up "Walley Wallington", yes his actual name, a retired construction worker out of Michigan who has went about demonstrating how one moves megalithic stones using leverage, pebbles,simple wood forms, and counterweights. Just a great thing to watch.

[@joshuatayloe8616]

@@stolman2197 Hmmm interesting, this points out the difference in education across the States. I'm from Iowa and my Western Civ Instructor often pointed out the abolition of slavery is what lead to the boom of industrialization and had the Greeks or Romans abolished slavery they would have been able to industrialize given they had enough metallurgical and scientific knowledge to build early steam powered equipment and ships. The real question of an earlier industrialization is how would it effect scientific advancement?

[@CandorHispanus]

"Slavery, the cancer of the Ancient World ..." - Carl Sagan, Cosmos

[@christiandauz3742]

I wonder how different the world would be if an Ancient Sumerian City-State achieve the Industrial Revolution?

[@MasterOfCydonia]

@IronfashProductions In the states themselves, yes, but on the peripheries of those innovative societies, they provide a great boon as people would suddenly need a huge amount of raw materials for their flowering industry. This is where slave states come in, as they can produce the vast quantity of goods to be shipped to these industrial centers, thus allowing them to grow and produce manufactured goods.

[@Itisjustasaganow]

the African hommosapien guy who invented slavery : Douh !

[@MrDieselakias]

dont ancient greek slavery with the western slavery. Slaves in ancient athens had the same rights that modern citizens have and the athenian citizens were truly free as they controlled their representatives.

[@yonathanrakau1783]

@@christiandauz3742 it would probably the same as if egypt or greek industrialized but you are talking about the tigris and euphrates river civilization which are extremely unstabil maybe any town industrialized and then assyrian just burned it to the ground, maybe its sacked by nomadic people or maybe just like why akkadian empire collapsed and why sumerian become dead its the climate which destroys their agriculture then again they are a very very slave society at that time many of the wars were for the sake of slaves

[@vcrsalesman2606]

Virgin: Plato Chad: Diogenes

[@archenema6792]

Exactly! His statement that what the Greeks believed was essentially whatever Plato said is utter BS. Outside of a narrow faction of Athenian aristocrats, Plato was nearly universally ridiculed. Sparta even gave Xenophon a pension and a villa so that he could continue to publicly argue that Plato's characterization of Socrates ideas was a pack of self-serving lies.

[@grubbybum3614]

What did Plato say that was so stupid? And what did Diogenes say that was so great?

[@archenema6792]

@@grubbybum3614 Please step out of my light

[@grubbybum3614]

@@archenema6792 no

[@archenema6792]

@@grubbybum3614 I answered your question. That was the most important and poignant thing the dog man ever said. Entire books have been written trying to interpret its meaning.

[@catacutan96]

Speaking as, erm, someone just spouting things, it doesn't seem *unlikely* for this timeline's Athenian Empire to develop drilling and formation fighting, given that mass production requires, in some way, education, coordination, and repetitive tasks. However, this is based on the assumption that assembly lines becomes a thing in this empire, but I shall go on. Factories, it seems, rely on a consistent, coordinated, and ablr workforce--be it meatware (i.e., humans welding chasses) or hardware (waterwheels spinning thread). Barring the spontaneous invention of the transistor computer, this would mean training a human workforce to be consistent, coordinated, and able. And this would most likely mean or lead towards orientations, training days, and team-building exercises. In other words, drilling people what to do in what situations, in what formations, and along what hierarchies. With this in the mental background of observers and participants, it would not (albeit in hindsight) be a stretch for a martially inclined enthusiast to wonder what applications this could have for the battlefield...

[@ihl0700677525]

I think being a soldier is far stricter than being a factory worker. Look at how Sparta trained their warrior elites, or how the Macedonians train their soldiers. Even ancient laborers (who build ancient monuments and large scale projects) probably live a more regimented life than most factory workers.

[@MasterOfCydonia]

I'd agree with Immanuel on this one, while I don't think the creation of Drill and Formation would be unlikely in this world, the regimented lives of the soldiers would be far more so than the organized lives of the factory workers.

[@richardjoe4474]

I think the greeks would've invented something that we would call a 'fire arm'. I don't how know matches work, but pulverized match heads can launch a projectile just like a black power weapon. With these crude weapons they probably could've developed something better by experimenting with chemistry.

[@jaghn4703]

Not to mention "Greek Fire", their ancient version of Naval artillery

[@colinsampson3131]

CheatyTycoon 2 I gree but to my understanding Greek fire was a petroleum based fire projection type weapon. That is still less counterintuitive than gunpowder

[@TheHunterOfYharnam]

@CheatyTycoon 2 it definetly was somewhat petroleum based the ancient greeks saw oil in the greek seas (even today there is a small island i don't remember the name that is black because there is so much oil there they knew about it but they didn't thought it was useful to something my guess is that we found it it was useful before the 7th century and we made the greek fire thingy (thats they way i decided to phrase that im not changing it)

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

@@jaghn4703 Greek fire wasn't an ancient invention, it was medieval.

[@jaghn4703]

@@ub3rfr3nzy94 In this context, I used the word "Ancient" as another term for the word "Older". I can see how my comment brings confusion, sorry about that

[@darkpurpleinsanity9461]

I know it's been a while since this video came out, but I feel the need to defend the Persians here. While it is true that harem politics destroys empires, said empires can also bounce back pretty easily after an internal conflict or two. The various Caliphates like the Umayyads and Ottomans lasted for centuries and were some of the most developed societies, technologically socially, and culturally, despite the decadence that periodically plagued them. Similarly, the Acheamenid Persians had two things going for them that the west didn't, that being that Zoroastrianism banned slavery, meaning they banned slavery (at least in a widespread practice), and the empire itself was established with an emphasis on cultural acceptance and tolerance. The empire was, up until the 20th century, one of the only powers to have actually treated the Jews with any measure to respect, and Cyrus built the empire more through alliances than conquest. The only exception to this is Egypt, with absolutely hated the Persians due to the current king's brutal religious faux pass, and so I agree with you that Egypt would take the first chance it could to jump ship like it did with Alexander. The Levant on the other hand, or at least the jewish part of it, would desperately fight against the Greeks to try and keep the protection of the much more tolerant Persians. (Hannukah also wouldn't exist, but that's a different story all together). I could see Persia staying together as a powerful eastern block, facilitating trade between China and Greece, slowly industrializing until the inevitable Greek collapse, and rising as a counter to Carthagingian power. Not with the same borders, and maybe not with the same government, but it's not like Persia is as far away as China would be, and it has the benefit of being a land based empire, meaning none of the other sea based empires would be able to hold large amounts of land for any length of time. tl:dr, I have opinions about Persia, but otherwise this is a great video

[@MasterOfCydonia]

I completely agree with you, and had he and I talked more, I am sure this would have come up. Unfortunately most of our talks were focused on inventions, and Hellenism, so it became very Hellenized in its scope.

[@christiandauz3742]

Persia would quickly Industrialized as well then expand into Asia and Eastern Europe Greece would be a Superpower sharing the world with Carthagre, Persia, India and China

[@BloodRider1914]

To me, it seems more likely that the Celts in mainland Greece would become assimilated into the dominant Greek culture, in a similar manner to the Mongols in Persia or the Franks

[@Daniel-jm7ts]

@Pecu Alex but Greek society at that point would had been even more superior so I dont think the Greek would have assimilated either

[@TheHunterOfYharnam]

i don't think the gauls would even beat a more advanced greece and i doubt we would even let carthage flarrish either syracuse almost conquered carthage itself at some point but they had to abondon the siege of the city due to a civil war and returned to sicily if just syracuse could do that i believe greece would have annihilated carthage

[@christiandauz3742]

But Persia would still be around and much more powerful expanding into Asia and Eastern Europe with their Industrial might India and China would soon Industrialized as well The world would be divided between four Superpowers. Greece, Persia, India and China

[@Real_Tower_Pizza]

@@christiandauz3742 oMg iTs jUsT liKe 1984

[@christiandauz3742]

@@Real_Tower_Pizza Not really. Five powers and not super-Authoritarian

[@giucas100cassabellis2]

*When Athena gives you an incredible knowledge as gift*

[@thedoruk6324]

The Celtics, as well as Carthagians/Phoenecians would be far much more *active* ! Maybe; a Carthagian South America; or even earlier contact with indeginous empires of America

[@archenema6792]

According to Thor Heyerdahl, this is not a "what if" proposal.

[@thedoruk6324]

@@archenema6792 I definetly meant for active Celtics and Carthagians though

[@keatonsmith5669]

That concept never ceases to fascinate me

[@thedoruk6324]

@@keatonsmith5669 Phoeneicans/Carthagians would *definetly* travel onto America's

[@nymasajista9207]

@Jonathan Williams Take a mental step back and remember that Greeks and Carths were naval peoples and would have improved their navies once they left the Mediterranean, and Brazil isn't that far off of West Africa. Whoever colonized South Africa and traded with India and Indonesia would eventually have a great deep water navy, and with steam tech probably some ****ing badass spear/harpoon cannons and flamethrowers (Greek fire+). Carthage was all about trade and would have definitely set up shop in the Caribbean and traded with most of both Americas, which would have made the history of the western hemisphere until now waaaay different than how it went for us.

[@fabiomorandi3585]

In a scenario like this there's one positive outcome that's probably not immediately apparent: we would no longer need to worry about Climate Change because anyone alive in the present of this timeline would already be living on Post-Global Warming Earth.

[@miguelmartin901]

Oh shit, that's true!! Anyway, I also think he has not mentioned enough the demographic changes that would have happened. Like I imagine Greeks would have enormous cities and after the celt raids they would simply return to a Polis system of goberment

[@fabiomorandi3585]

@History Tank It's possible, but since industrial activity would take longer to pollute the atmosphere, by dint of a much lower population than the billion we reached around 1800, Climate Change wouldn't just be slower but also happen more or less on top of the Roman Warm Period, thus it'd be far less noticeable.

[@christiandauz3742]

By the time there are 5 Billion humans, they would have colonized the Moon

[@SherlockHolmesb-kp4ru]

​​@@christiandauz3742The solar system and not just the moon

[@Snatxi]

what if ancient greece indurstrialized? well, we would be learning about the nuclear bombings of carthage and gaul

[@christiandauz3742]

There wouldn't be any Nukes only Nuclear Power Plants Ancient people would be Atheists and colonize space

[@NeckbeardOrigins]

Based, Carthago Delende Est

[@alexandrub8786]

0:00 to 0:10 that is called "chronological snobbery",my friend.

[@aperson5876]

A problem that many of my high school history teachers suffered from

[@CountScarlioni]

It's what pisses me off about a lot of these ridiculous "ancient aliens" books and shows. It's a product of a thought process of "Wow, the Pyramids are really clever BUT ancient peoples were DUMBZ - therefore aliensdidit!!?" It's just grossly insulting to the innovative genius of our ancestors. I thankfully had good high-school teachers who made sure we understood that human beings have always been just as intelligent and capable as they are today. Or as I had it explained to a young me: "It's like saying William Shakespeare was rubbish because he didn't write his works on a word processor."

[@Whatatwist2009]

The issue I am having is without better metallurgy the Greek steam engine is not going to be able to do much. They would explode before you could build up enough pressure to make large engines that can power boats or trains.

[@stevencooper4422]

Perhaps reinforcing the engine with metal barrel hoops would help?

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

Steel axisted in the ancient era, it was simply not widespread. Besides, one can build a boiler out of brass just fine.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@The Yangem The greeks could make steel though. Well, the Romans could anyways. And frankly speaking there hasnt been much advancement in metallurgy from Roman crucible furnaces until the ironclad naval arms race.

[@BobbyHardenbrook]

yes but you could get lower-energy, less efficient, steam engines with lower quality metals and various kludges to increase the strength like the metal hoops that someone else mentioned. This would be sufficient for things like paddle wheel steamers as an auxillary power source for faster or bigger Tiremes, steam driven pumps to improve mining, etc. Then slow progression over time as they slowly improve their metallurgy via trial and error. I love the idea of a slow motion industrialization that unfolds much more slowly than in OTL and that lacks gunpowder, etc.

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

Perhaps seeing the requirement for stronger reinforcement on their engines would inspire them to try and solve that problem leading to an innovation in that field.

[@BigBennKlingon]

The Phoenicians seem like a better candidate for this hypothetical industrialization. The Phoenician mercantile class was much more significant than it's landed aristocracy. Most colonies and even some mainland cities were ruled by a sort of proto-bourgeois oligarchy.

[@janrerych]

What if Ottokar II won at the battle of Marchfeld, making Bohemia ruler of the Holy Roman Empire. - The Habsburg Empire would not become and Bohemia would become the hegemon of middle Europe.

[@jochenklausberger9076]

Yes. This please.

[@daca8395]

Czech would be most spoken language in central and eastern Europe? Why the hell not!

[@janrerych]

@@daca8395 Heck yeah

[@amehak1922]

Jesus' sermons would have been from a starship, so he would have been literally a space Jesus

[@christiandauz3742]

Doubt Christianity would exist. Judaism and all the other Ancient Religions die out Atheism would be dominant by 100 BC

[@rupertgarcia]

@@christiandauz3742, true.

[@twoscarabsintheswarm9055]

@@christiandauz3742 why would everyone just give up religion

[@christiandauz3742]

@@twoscarabsintheswarm9055 Ever since the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s there has been a trend towards Irreligion Having the Industrial Revolution happen in 450 BCE would actually multiply that trend. Humans would be going from Spears to AK-47s in just a few hundred years! Writing by hand to Internet! Prayer does shit to disease. Science exterminates diseases like Smallpox Technology would be seen as the solution and future, not religion Christianity, Islam and Sikhism wouldn't exist as humanity would be very Atheistic by 100 BCE. Also immortal by then

[@christopherlee7334]

@@christiandauz3742 Well, monotheistic religion, and religions which take up a large chunk of daily life. Polytheistic religions, where they haven't been stamped out by monotheistic religions or anti-theistic governments, have endured, the most prominent example currently being Shinto. Buddhism and Hinduism is also still a massive force around the globe, despite technological progress.

[@gasbasman]

I really love these maps. I often pause just to look and decipher the maps. Just curious how much time does the script costs compared to the maps? Love your content

[@aetu35]

The maps are easier to make than you think. If you know the geography of the place you're mapping (like mountain ranges, plains and forests) you can make surprisingly accurate borders that would've been there if the timeline happened. Also, I think he could make the maps' quality better. Maybe I am nitpicking though since my favourite part of these videos is map porn.

[@jaghn4703]

Hooo, I'll have fun turning the concept of this video into a vibrant DnD campaign. Thanks for the ideas man, you never failed to impress

[@nicholasnguyen1674]

Can you do an alternate history where the Japanese win the Imjin war, maybe by Admiral Yi dying earlier?

[@innosam123]

Or if Balhae survived.

[@ericcopeland3434]

They wanted to conquer China & India.. they fail obviously in China.

[@guilhermehiroshicorreakuro9582]

Japan probably would never go isolationist, but would get overstretched just close to Beijing

[@deadby15]

From Nomadic races' perspective, Invading China is so risky. You end up losing your identity and get assimilated.

[@innosam123]

The Nova renaissance All the people who have conquered China are horse warriors for a reason.

[@aarohalme1020]

"Socialist greek egypt" Egypt was a highly bureaucratic monatchy interconnected by the nile, and 1 man kingdom's typically are basically the opposite of socialism.

[@k-techpl7222]

He was focusing on how it was governed rather than by who (like you said: "Highly bureaucratic").

[@aarohalme1020]

Bureaucracy has nothing to do with socialism, as it is a thing in all nations, especially dictatorships.

[@Perrirodan1]

@@aarohalme1020 In theory but in application it ends up like venezuela, China,Russia, Yougoslavia etc... Lots and lots of bureaucracy because the government hold so much power.

[@aarohalme1020]

@@Perrirodan1 bureaucracy happens in almost all dictatorships as indivituals who become dictators typically have power to make the state fit their desires. This is unrelated to socialism or capitalism, but instead to authoritarian.

[@username65585]

Central planning is socialist.

[@st0rts11D4]

I appreciate the changes youve made to the introductory stage to videos. Feels more casual and even humorous. Engages and entertains in higher regards. Have a good one dude!

[@hendrikhuysmans8057]

Do a what if Lavrentiy Beria became leader of the ussr after stalin died

[@1perspective286]

Wow, that is terrifying, that rapist is one of the few individuals that could have potentially been worse than Stalin. Honestly don't know if I could stomach that video, but it would be interesting.

[@TapOnX]

Very underrated. Of course it is not clear how many of his plans would actually succeed, but if we want to make this scenario interesting, it could involve the end of the Cold War, Germany reuniting as a neutral state, introduction of market economy in the USSR. All of this could happen by 1960. The USSR could become a bit like Deng Xiaoping's China, developing a powerful, export-based economy, but remaining an authoritarian, single-party state. The USSR, as well as the Warsaw Pact would likely still exist, and Comecon would rival the European Union.

[@hendrikhuysmans8057]

@@1perspective286 ye he would've made another purge for example and surely killing zhukov because his a threat to him

[@hendrikhuysmans8057]

@@TapOnX aswell as purges and a continuation or worsenning of stalins brutal regime

[@1perspective286]

@@hendrikhuysmans8057 Yeah, I think the real question is what would become of Kruschev. Would Beria continue to allow him to play the fool as he had with Stalin, or would he purge him too?

[@gjkilla16]

I feel that it would be harder for Ancient Greece to industrialize as we have, because while they may be able to produce initial versions of the steam engine, their first steam engines would be too inefficient to realistically do useful things. The way to improve the steam engine's efficiency is through thermodynamics, which requires understanding calculus, and also understanding that heat is a form of energy, just like kinetic and potential energy. Ancient Greece didn't have this knowledge, so, I think they may be just stuck with their initial steam engines with perhaps some minor improvements, and the engine would remain an "unsolved problem in natural philosophy" kind of thing (back then it was called natural philosophy instead of science). Kinda how like we have some unsolved problems in physics today.

[@samueltv9428]

He literally spent the first half of the video explaining how greek thought would.

[@spaghettimeatballs6352]

You should do a video “what if China industrialized during the Song Dynasty”

[@christiandauz3742]

Or the Tang or Qin Dynasties

[@glacierlegion9439]

@@christiandauz3742 Tang is possible but not plausible, Qin is just… no. I think you mean Qing?

[@christiandauz3742]

@@glacierlegion9439 The Qin or Chu from the Spring and Autumn period. Competition between the various states incentivizes Industrialization

[@glacierlegion9439]

@@christiandauz3742 They weren’t advanced enough to harness steam power. No civilization was until the Song dynasty

[@christiandauz3742]

@@glacierlegion9439 What if a Time-travel started the Industrial Revolution with the earlu Akkadian Empire? Sargon has plenty of reasons to support Industrialization. The guy built his capitol, Akkad, from a small town. Conquered all the Sumerian cities

[@octopusspaghetti3955]

Woohoo, I can see you listened to the community! Quieter intro and your voice is SOOO much more clearer! Either it's a new mic or you made some adjustments to your old one. 10/10 for community feedback, I'm looking forward to watching this :D

[@Klaesick]

Next time on Whatifaltist. What if the Romans had Steampunk technology?

[@HVLLOW99]

*MOTORISED BALISTAS*

[@Klaesick]

@@HVLLOW99 Yes.

[@TapOnX]

Rome would have fallen much sooner because Steampunk is retarded

[@Klaesick]

@@TapOnX True

[@grubbybum3614]

@@TapOnX yeah, I'm not a fan of steam punk. Diesel punk is superior.

[@Pedrosa2541]

4:00 - I don't know if this is true at all, I mean, Eratosthenes did discovered the circunference of the earth, Aristotle had wild different ideas of the importance of empirism over rationalism and did a great work cataloging species.

[@FigureOnAStick]

>Greco-Celtic Civilization Sir, you had my interest. Now, you have my attention

[@christiandauz3742]

The Celts and Nomads would have lost to the Five Industrialized Superpowers Greece, Carthage, Persia, India and China

[@smal750]

​@@christiandauz3742troll

[@mr.goldfish1530]

The early development of socialist thought would also happen.

[@mr.goldfish1530]

@@allsoover No it wouldn't.

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

@@allsoover A Society that uses huge amounts of slavery would be able to be socialist just fine. The requirement for socialism, or communism, is utopian abundance. The kind of abundance Spartans had due to their slavery. Every man (and woman) was able to train in warfare because they had no need to work. Every citizen was a wealthy slave owner.

[@christiandauz3742]

Slavery would disappear much earlier in this Alternate Timeline

[@purpledevilr7463]

I feel like every ancient history video made is worth an entire series of books.

[@christiandauz3742]

I suggest Eric Flint's Alexander Inheritance series

[@canaanosborne2937]

I think you'd love the book Fitzpatrick's War. It really leans into all the stuff about culture affecting society that you talk about.

[@RaidsEpicly]

welp this looks awesome, you've sold me if no one else!

[@erendiranigarcia8326]

"The Egyptian State was essentially socialist." Yknow, socialism, that thing where the government does stuff. What the hell do you think socialism is? Citation fucking needed, man.

[@radumiri]

This video shattered so many unconscious assumptions I had and made sense of numerous other ideas that I can help but like :)))) I think it is a masterwork and I love to bits!

[@MarkChilcote]

Wouldn’t Carthage be much more aggressive when the Athenian Empire weakened, surely the Carthaginian would not only want the levant but would also fight for the power vacuum in egypt either annexing or setting up a tributary. The setting up of an easier way to India would be the motivation. Especially the lands would be particularly developed and world famed due to prior Athenian exploitation and usage. Carthage may have more motivation to defeat the Athenians even earlier as they would not have had as disciplined army as the Romans and would be potentially even more stretched and disorganised. The celts and carthaginians having defeated Athens would cause then to rival each other. Perhaps they would not war due to not having motivation as the celts and Germany people would want to unite while Carthage would be so powerful in trade and ahead on colonisation they may not bother warring for France or Germany. If they did this would potentially cause celts to unite faster and cause a stonger Celtic empire ultimate resulting in a truce. As for Persia it could have fallen to itself and been rebuilt with more development. Since they wouldn’t have been stacked they may have advanced trade and science themselves or attempted to invade eastwards to expand. I am jus theorising and haven’t actually studied the period all that much. Maybe you all could let me know how plausible these ideas are?

[@benzur3503]

4:05 this description ignores the school of thought expressed by aristotle regarding empiricsm.

[@christophvonpezold4699]

I loved this video! Although I love your more modern history althists, it'd be interesting to see larger divergences like this one from time to time :)

[@horsepowermultimedia]

Greek: Wait a minute! I thought you are a slave! Shouldn't you be with your master? Slave: I was recently replaced with a machine. I'm a freedman now.

[@spiderlime]

there's an excellent novel about a similar scenario "pillars of hercules"" on the subject of philosophy: i know that it's fashionable in modern society, to view philosophy as worthless. while thinkers such as plato certainly had ideas that are deservedly no longer followed, it should be borne in mind that the scientific method couldn't have existed without philosophy, which basically is founded on two fields: logic and ethics. sir francis bacon changed logic by shifting from a-priori assumptions as in the days of plato, to a-posteriori thinking that relies on observation and experimentation. logic and ethics are vital to scientific thinking.

[@briangarcia7384]

I feel like philosophy is still alive and well though, even if its not prioritized.

[@edward986]

At first I thought this was going to be a weird video, but this is really interesting! Very nice video!

[@cheetoduster252]

Never thought i’d watch an alternate history video where the person says ”And this is where play dough comes in”

[@thomaskline5164]

There isn't a thumb ups big enough for this VId. Your spot on on Plato. well done

[@ramsesv.pinxteren252]

Was already sad that it went down 5 minutes in haha Btw you made a typo around 5:59. It should be "designed" on the first line of the text. Great work you do. I always enjoy your movies.

[@Szvean]

I have been waiting for such a video since the day I subscribed. Thank you

[@1perspective286]

I think this is my favorite timeline yet of yours, I love the idea of Carthage and the Celts colonizing the new world. Maybe you could expand on that sometime, like your video about the Romans colonizing the Americas. Having said that, I do have to point out one flaw in this timeline. I don't see Syracuse being the key to an Athenian victory in the Peloponnesian Wars. In our timeline Sparta won the war because they allied with the Persians and the Athenian navy could no longer compete with both the Spartan and Persian navies. A victory in Syracuse would likely only hasten this alliance. Ultimately I feel that Alcibiades' Syracusean scheme was a hairbrained one and Athens still would have lost the war. However, I do still see two ways this scenario could play out, both involving Alcibiades, being the man who could talk his way out of anything or into anyone. First, early in the war, Alcibiades and other silver tongued Athenians, promote a massive slave uprising throughout the Peloponnesian League. Part of the reason why the Spartans developed their warrior culture was because they were outnumbered 7-1 by their Helot slaves. Had the Athenians and their allies armed and worked with the slaves to defeat the Spartans, they could potentially have won the war before the Persians got involved. This scenario would then proceed as you described in your video. I don't think this scenario would be terribly likely, given that the Athenians themselves were reliant on slaves and wouldn't want their own getting any ideas. The Second option, they go through with the Syracusean Invasion and win. Athens eventually still succumbs to the Spartan-Persian Alliance, the question is what becomes of Syracuse. Perhaps the Persians, not wanting to extend their armies so far from their homeland, would be disinterested in subduing them, leaving the Spartans unable to persecute a new Syracusean democracy. Even if the Persians did subdue Syracuse, given the rebellious nature of the Sicilians, would likely overthrow any puppet government installed. As long as they maintained the good graces of the Carthaginians (Alcibiades may come in handy again), they could then create the Athenian-Syracusean democracy would be free to make a new empire for themselves in Italia and along the coasts of southern Gaul and eastern Iberia. Given the genius of individuals such as Archimedes you could see the same technological leaps that would occur within an Athenian empire. Likely we would see the first railways in Carthage rather than Persia, which could fuel their colonial empire further. Anyway, loved the video, keep up the good work!

[@christiandauz3742]

The Celts and Nomads would have been conquered by Greece, Carthage, Persia, India and China

[@almarc]

Hey. Just wanted to say that your video got recommended to me on the very top. Glad I found this channel :)

[@MrAxeofcapitalism]

You just keep on delivering these well thought out and interesting scenarios. You're on par with Isaac Arthur in your field as he is in his. Love your channel keep up the good work !

[@absolutelynothing3621]

What happened to the old video?

[@bevbevan6189]

He's fixed a 10 second period that had a black screen. I'm guessing that's it.

[@absolutelynothing3621]

@@bevbevan6189 ah okay

[@facundocadaa9020]

Is an alternative history where that video didn't happen

[@absolutelynothing3621]

@@facundocadaa9020 uh no

[@absolutelynothing3621]

@@facundocadaa9020 I still have the notification for it lol

[@bevbevan6189]

Who would Bill & Ted have kidnapped instead of So Crates Johnson?

[@twojacksandanace3847]

lol, i got that reference.

[@ricardoahr5459]

6 Ideas (Attempt 2 + 6 More Ideas) What if Korea Was the first Asian Nation to Industrialize instead of Japan? What if India became Communist? What if the Xinhai Rebellion failed? What if the Islamic Conquests of Egypt/Persia/Assyria failed? What if the Ming defeated the Qing in the Ming-Qing War? What if the Sikhs Conquered the entire Indian Subcontinent? What if India converted to Nestorian Christianity? What if China became Muslim? What if the US/UK became Fascist? What if the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth Remained United/Was more powerful? What if Indonesia became Catholic/Was colonized by Portugal? What if the Ottomans never existed?

[@HVLLOW99]

🎖Here, take this medal. These are gold suggestions. May I add What If the Mali Empire discovered the americans in the 1,300's and colonized and documented it under Mansa Musa's reign. They had the wealth to do so.

[@applesaucelarry813]

He did a video about “what if the Byzantine empire survived” or something like that. where the Byzantines beat the Turks and the ottomans never come into existence. Nice video ideas btw

[@466chalk]

One day, this channel is going to put up maps, the sole purpose of which would be to troll the audience. I look forward to that day.

[@Thurnmourer]

@0:36 >Says Ancient Egypt >Shows Mesopotemic architecture wut

[@angadsinghahuja9235]

Probably just a filler picture

[@theozillanuke8281]

I feel that "correct" is not a good way to put that. "Rational" people have a habit of twisting what ever they see to match there worldview. this is true. However this "correct" view that you are talking about is something I have seen many times. Only a handful of people get out of it what you are talking about. Most people get lost in data overload, and stop thinking about anything, and become hedonistic (a problem I see in modern society). On the other hand some people will get most of the way to "correct" and think that they have got it and base there worldview on that. There are so many stories of scientists thought that they knew everything and then tried to crush someone (and sometimes succeeded) who did have the correct answer but that answer didn't fit in their worldview. It cuts both ways. I my lifetime I have see what is correct change overnight and I have seen how much opposition comes from people who are supposed to find the correct answer, but it is not theirs so they don't want it. If I was not open-minded I would have given up a long time ago. You need rationale and open-minedness with the correct information. If you have any one of those by themselves then you just cut yourself off from reality.

[@christiandauz3742]

Mississippi is both religious and a shithole

[@andreydoronin6995]

About the gunpowder - people could still develop other types of ranged weapons such as flamethrowers (obvious example is Greek fire, ironically) and air guns which work on similar principles. The first air gun prototype was invented by Ktesibios who lived more than 200 years before Hero of Alexandria. In this alternative history scenario, these types of weapon can be discovered even earlier considering massive developments in pneumatics and hydraulics.

[@kirgan1000]

First tell me about the big coal fields and big iron mines in ancient Greece (or its close vicinity) that produse cheap coal and iron that allow Industrializion.....

[@Mike-ukr]

Ukraine and Serbia are fairly close by, and for early industrialization there's enough in Greece itself

[@kirgan1000]

@@Mike-ukr The frist practical steam engines were very inefficient, and was use to pump water from coal mines, hence there was not a big problem to transport the huge amount of coal. Lest make a hypotetical exampel, a James Watt's engine in England replace 10 workers, but need 1machinis 1stoker 1 wagon driver (to transport the coal) and 5 coal miner to suport it, you save one worker, hence its profitable to build early steam engines, and the more steam engines you bild the more you lern and can make more effective steam engines. Now take Greek, you still need worker to operate the early engine, but becuse the local Greek coal mines are not that rich you need 7 miner to suport it, hence it do not make sense to build early steam engines, and they will not be imporoved, becuse nobady will build more engines. The same if you use imported coal, more workers is needed to transport the coal. The number is fictional and only to prove the point.

[@boborappa]

@@kirgan1000 He said Ukraine and Serbia lol in the case of ukraine you get arable land, easy iron and coal deposits, as well as, large river systems for transportation. Not claiming holding the land would be feasible though; but it was the second source of grain for Greece proper behind Egypt

[@dangerouslytalented]

Guncotton was discovered by spilling acid on cloth. Other explosives also were discovered accidentally. The role of gunpowder could have been taken by other substances

[@panasiia2221]

I would love to see someone make a whole story about this alternate history scenario. Sounds like something that would make a great book or game lol

[@christiandauz3742]

By the time the Colonists made contact with Native Americans vaccines and other medical inventions would have been commonplace The Native Americans wouldn't die of disease. In fact their population would explode while it is assimilated by the Colonial Powers

[@fumafuma0323]

2:37 wait what? How was ancient Egypt socialist?

[@mr.goldfish1530]

It wasn't. That was a horrifically bad take.

[@TheZapan99]

Egyptians worshipped their pharaoh so much that contributing to religious buildings was considered an honor. This guy somehow construes this as an example of communist personality cult.

[@valentinmitterbauer4196]

Because appearently: Giving stuff = socialism Disregarding historical systems like feudalism or sacred kingship that involved giving huge amounts of goods and work for little to nothing in return

[@innosam123]

RobinsonCrouse24 He meant it was a command economy that was proto- communistic.

[@valentinmitterbauer4196]

@@innosam123 So feudalism (heavily restrictive, commanding and sometimes self- crippling economy) was proto-communism? Ok.

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

As we all know, the flower of Athenian youth is, of course, represented by Alcibiades.

[@Geopoliticus]

I found this really fascinating. Looking forward to going through all your videos.

[@TheRusty]

"Egypt at the time was essentially socialist, since the Egyptian rulers could draft workers to work on whatever they wanted" So ahhhh... no? That's not socialism? That's just a prototypical feudalism?

[@johnalexander651]

So then what would you call the Soviet Union?

[@loldiamond1017]

Not at all feudalism. Has frankly almost nothing in common with feudalism.

[@anthonybousquet3590]

@@johnalexander651 Oh, I don't know, Communist?

[@capulet6669]

Ahem, no? In feudalism you lived under your lord, which ruled one county and thus you. You weren't moved around empire. You hardly even traveled out of your county. This is pure socialism. This is how economy in states of Eastern Block was based

[@jansundvall2082]

Punkrawk Ancient Egypt was neither socialism nor feudalism, it was an autocracy controlled by the royal court and the high priests. Socialism and liberalism etc. are children of the industrialised era.

[@libertatemadvocatus1797]

One thing you miss with the objection to "Harem Politics" is that it is not necessarily a moralistic argument. It's not that the Emperor is too busy fucking his heart out, but rather that Harems are the way of ensuring that there are successors to the throne. However, the problem is that it often spawns many potential successors with various heirs and their mothers each competing for power since the the winner usually killed off all pretenders to the the crown. So the Sultan or Emperor often had to keep an eye out for potential intrigues or tried to steer preferred heirs into positions where they were likely to be the successor.

[@jochenklausberger9076]

Somebody must have pointed this out, but what does the picture at 13:40 have to do with the Persians?

[@JediAcolyte94]

What if the Salem Witch trials never happened? What if the Meiji Restoration failed? What if the Raid on Harper's Ferry succeeded? What if Bleeding Kansas never happened?

[@makhdias6907]

They're all unrealistic so shut up dipshit

[@JediAcolyte94]

@@makhdias6907 Don't like it then bugger off.

[@makhdias6907]

@@JediAcolyte94 How about you make better timelines?

[@makhdias6907]

@@JediAcolyte94 Don't like my comment then fuck off.

[@nickilinstrom]

Actual Philosopher here, interesting take, but you have a fair bit wrong about philosophy. First off, the modern definition of Philosophy is different than the Greek one in the time period. Philosophy used to just be the catch all term for all intellectual pursuits. As time has passed and more use has been found for various specific parts of what was once philosophy, we give them new names and eventually recognize them as their own distinct disciplines. Prime examples being chemistry, math, biology, etc. Its worth noting that it took until Albert Einstein weighing in on the subject for math to be considered a distinct field rather than just a branch of formal logic. The most recent field to split off is computer science, which also came out of formal logic. The modern version of philosophy is basically just “all aspects of intellectual discourse, except the ones we find practical, useful, and/or have names for”. Another big issue is that your take on Socrates is way off, he basically dedicated his life to a Cartesian style skeptical analysis of traditionalist Greek values, and was notoriously martyred because he actively went out of his way to annoy and prove the ignorance of traditional authority figures. His example actually resulted in philosophical education from being banned from Athens, and as a result the school of thought was only maintained by philosophical radicals abusing a loophole in zoning laws regarding temples. It is worth mentioning that you also ignore Aristotle, who was a student of Plato and educated in the Socratic tradition. He also basically created the fields of physics, biology, zoology, metaphysics, logic, ethics, esthetics, psychology, linguistics, economics, and political science; at least in so far as we recognize them today. He also is the father of most of western academia in terms of form and structure and is arguably the one to popularize the scientific method. Its worth noting that Socratic philosophy produced the single most accomplished polymath and scientist in human history. Also despite the Socratic tradition producing the exact type of intellectuals that you seem to think that Sophists were, there were still the issues that prevented industrialization which you outlined. Speaking of your conception of Sophists. It is inaccurate to compare Sophism to Philosophy; Sophists were basically just lawyers and/or professional conmen. Sophism is the practice of convincing people that what you are saying is true at any cost. It values winning the argument over truth. Philosophers went out of their way to try and distance themselves from the common assumption that they were in fact Sophists because Sophism was rightly seen as smoke and mirror trickery. The reason that the two were often confused was that the practice of the Socratic method basically allowed one to disprove most any argument by continuously asking "why" until your victim gets back to their base assumptions and can no longer provide an answer.

[@videogamebomer]

Everyone a philosopher bitch

[@nickilinstrom]

videogamebomer You aren’t wrong. Having any thoughts about morality and/or politics counts. So it’s actually pretty dang hard to NOT be a philosopher.

[@matheuroux5134]

Did NOT expect to see a bit of neo-marxist Dependency Theory/ World Systems Theory here. Your perspectives are getting ever more complex and interesting, Whatifalthist

[@phillyelite3379]

I Pray To God this guy ends up with his own 30min show on history Channel or something! 👊 💣 this was awesome thanx Sir P.s Ne episode of WhatIf... this week on History

[@miketacos9034]

Plato’s Allegory of the Cave is so ironic because his obsession with imaginary ideal forms is literally staring at shadow puppets on the wall instead of going outside and touching grass.

[@remilenoir1271]

Funny. But I garantee that Plato touched more grass than you do.

[@dylanchouinard6141]

I think it would be much more plausible, and interesting, to see industrialization during the Islamic Golden Age. The Middle East and North/West Africa were at the level of development in the last few centuries of the first millennium that wouldn’t be seen in Europe until the 17th-18th centuries. They preserved and commentated on Greco-Roman philosophers and inventors, developed an early scientific method, did crop rotation, discovered two of Newton’s three laws of motion.The Medieval Islamic World was basically late renaissance/early modern Europe. If it weren’t for a lack of resources, low population, and just a general disinterest in steam technology. I actually have a few ideas for how this could happen: 1. For some reason, Crown Prince Li Heng (later Emperor Tang Suzong) is present at the Battle of Talas in 751 AD. The battle goes as planned (massive Abbasid victory), and the prince is captured. Because of this, the Tang give as ransom not just paper, but also gunpowder and a Gutenberg style printing press. Allowing for much greater dissemination of information -Russians covert to Islam (could be Vladimir the Great like in OTL, an earlier Rurikid Tsar, or a pre-Rurik ruler, depends on when you want it to happen). This gives the Islamic World greater access to resources like lumbar and coal -Keep the world a bit warmer. One of the factors for the decline of the Islamic Empires was a general cooling of global temperatures. If the world stays a bit warmer for a bit longer, it could lead to a population boom which will incentivize technological progress. This would also keep Feudal Europe stable for a little while longer -No Mongol Empire. The biggest blow to Science in the Islamic World was the destruction of libraries by the Mongol Khanate, leading to a reactionary period that took a while to recover from. So we have to either erase Genghis Khan or have him be content to rule the Steppes and maybe China (Temujin can have a little world conquest, as a treat) Any additions people want to make is greatly appreciated

[@andrasbeke3012]

I recently noticed an interesting inverse relationship between Military Prowess and Bureaucratic competence in Antiquity. For example, the Egyptians and Chinese were excellent bureaucrats. World renown, in fact. But their military feats aren't exactly something to write home about. Of course, every society has major victories every now and then, but being conquered by weaker, smaller invaders repeatedly isn't a great look. Now take the Mongols. Excellent fighters. But their empire had no central economy, more based on exploitation of conquered peoples by military governors. The Macedonians are a different case, taking the excellent warfare of the Greeks and blending it with the refined bureaucracy of the Persians. And it did fall apart immediately after Alexander's death, so no extra points for the Macedonians. The Romans' unique ability to pick and chose between great ideas of those they conquered makes them an exception in my eyes. Any explanations, rebuttals, discussions? Edit: I don't consider the Greeks to have any exceptional Bureaucracy because governing a city state is much different from running an empire. I don't think that either the direct democracy in Athens, nor the Fascistic dictatorship in Sparta would lend themselves very well to a large empire.

[@meneither3834]

It's more that settled empires become worse at warfare. The Persian conquered vast amount of lands before getting beat by Alexander.

[@davidegaruti2582]

I've got one objection : prussia . They where always since the 1500 fucking terrifiying on the battlefield be the war with the lance and the horse , drill formations and artillery , machine guns and trenches or tanks and airplanes ... All of a while they arguably have the best burocracy in all of europe . The french are also good in that aspects : you don't survive 1000+ years without doing somenthing right ... But yeah i should probably say it : The bigger an empire gets the more burocracy is needed , And the bigger an empires grow they'll have a much harder time covering all of their borders , this results in losses that in a simple 1v1 empirial army vs barbarian army battle wouldn't have append ...

[@MS-qd1jj]

Yes!!! They correlate because they have the same root cause. As empires get bigger and wealthier their power projection options narrow(usually hitting multiple geographic choke points) while beauracracy increases since there is more people, wealth hence more need for taxation, social projects et cetera. Romans and prussians are weird because they kept their military culture longer than they should've but that can partially be explained by the fact that they spent centuries being weak and vulnerable before sudden expansion.

[@anotherbloodyfanwriter1941]

I want a steampunk Punic War between Athens and Carthage!

[@gatedude07]

I disagree with you about weapons. Even if the Greeks didn't discover black powder for centuries after industrializing, they'd still likely invent guns or something analogous to them. After all, there are steam powered or compressed air powered guns in our timeline, stretching back to *at least* the late colonial era, and steam-powered guns remained viable into WWII. Compressed air rifles were carried by Lewis and Clark's expedition due to resupply concerns with gunpowder. And this doesn't even touch on possible creative solutions such as mechanical repeating crossbows. All of these things and more are very possible in a civilization that has a really good understanding of mechanics and steam pressure but hasn't gotten chemistry to the point of gunpowder yet. And these weapons would remain highly effective against barbarian tribal attacks. And that's assuming they don't discover gunpowder/black powder/cordite either, which honestly I'm rather skeptical about your claim anyway. Yeah sure in OTL the Chinese only stumbled across it on accident while looking for a mystic solution to immortality, but in this proposed timeline the Greeks have the scientific method or something very close to it. Experimentation would very much be a thing in a world as dependent on mechanics and fluid dynamics as any industrial world would be. And that would include studying chemistry, even if for no other reason than to find better fuels to power their machines.

[@dylanchouinard6141]

Finally, an alt history where Greece industrialized where Christianity isn’t the bad guy Edit: I would also like to clarify that Egypt/Greece were not socialist. Socialism is usually defined as collective ownership of the means of production by all people. What these ancient countries had was more along the lines of state capitalism with an emphasis on collectivism/communalism.

[@mr.goldfish1530]

They'd have been more akin to fascism (everything for the state (although the state didn't really exist yet)).

[@dylanchouinard6141]

Mr. Goldfish Ehh, I think the word you’re looking for is authoritarianism. Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that wants a particular socio-ethnic group to have all the power by any means necessary. Also by Thanos snapping Socrates he also got rid of the Socratic argument. Which is all about thinking through an idea logically so that you can work out any arguments against it, usually with someone else to provide with feedback and a different perspective. So you got the scientific method early, but you then smothered peer reviews in their crib as a trade off

[@mr.goldfish1530]

@@dylanchouinard6141 Fascism isn't inherently based on race or ethnicity. That's just how it usually works out. Fascism is a form of authoritarian corporatist societal order putting the state above all else. Using race to rally people behind the state is just easy and convenient.

[@dylanchouinard6141]

Mr. Goldfish I mean, name one fascist government that didn’t support itself on the supremacy of one racial/cultural/ethnic group

[@hersirivarr1236]

He refers to Egypt as being socialist in this alt-history due to it's authoritarian central planning, something which self-described socialist states practice. "Socialism is usually defined as collective ownership of the means of production by all people." Theory =/= actual reality. A lot of people don't bother acknowledging the ideal of a socialist society as proposed by intellectuals because all of the commonly known attempts at socialist societies with communal economies have failed due to some form of 'the tragedy of the commons' causing greater scarcity and inefficiencies than market economies because there is no innate way to regulate consumption and production without strict hierarchy or market incentives. Those communes that have avoided this do so by transitioning back into a capitalist market economy or by deteriorating into totalitarian state with a command economy, which will then transition into totalitarian state with a highly restrictive market economy due to the inefficiencies with command economics. One of the reasons why Marx's prophesied 'Communist Society' requires technology advancement to the point of creating a completely autonomous means of production is because complex communal economies will only work in a hypothesized post-scarcity economy where it becomes physically impossible to enact the tragedy of the commons due to the absence of scarcity. For this to work, the post-scarcity economy would need to be both eternally universal and universally eternal otherwise scarcity and therefore totalitarian governance or market economics will reassert themselves to address the scarcity.

[@dragoncatsage3049]

“The Egyptian state was basically socialist” No it really wasn’t.

[@unclesam5230]

Alexander the Great wants to know your location!

[@christiandauz3742]

He wouldn't exist in this Alternate Timeline. Macedonian would have been annexed by the Greeks

[@aufgehts5]

"The Egyptian state was socialist" Really? I would say that it was quite the opposite. The Egyptian state was a totaliterian monarchy with a strong influence of a huge religious cast of priests. A socialist society is one with a democratic structure in wich the people can have actually a lot to say in economics and political affairs (btw. ussr/Stalinism, china and ddr were not socialist societys)

[@loldiamond1017]

Alright, what do we call such a state? It's not fascist, most monarchies do not control the means of production (same with fascism frankly), authoritarian states have nothing to do with the economy (Fascist and Monarchial states were frequently capitalist or at least mercantile) and calling it an absolute theocratic bureaucratic monarchy is too long.

[@businessproyects2615]

Socialism requires no democracy.

[@monkeeseemonkeedoo3745]

Couldn't these alternate people's devise a way of accelerating projectiles with steam? Or some other way that doesn't involve gunpowder? It's impossible to say obviously, but I think seeing nomadic invaders would be a great motivator for any industrial civilizations in that scenario to innovate.

[@elitalks258]

Your videos have improved in quality quite a bit since a few years ago. Better mic quality and more interesting production.

[@Ali-bu6lo]

13:39 What does this map of west Africa have to do with the Persian Empire in this alternate history?

[@jamesgabor9284]

Lol didn’t notice this probably was a mistake

[@deathpick2]

this is such a cool what if that i would love to see it continued even if it means going into more world building and less accurate alternate history

[@christiandauz3742]

The Industrualized Greeks and Persians would curbstomp the Celts and Nomads Native American population doesn't die from disease but instead explodes

[@Wojjjie]

Whatifaltist- I gues it should be Sun worship Me a 40k fan/SCP mechan fan - Are you Sure about that?

[@Ribulose15diphosphat]

How is the crafting supposed to work ? Making large and accurate metal parts is hard. Also you need ore and fuel. You probably have to bootstrap from water power. *Build water wheels for milling cereals *improve them for pumping water out of mines (like early modern Germany) *mine coal and ore *build simple water-powered machines for metal-working drill/mill/saw/grind ... *now you can build steam-engines interestingly, electricity is way more theoretical than mechanics. You could actually get much further with ancient crafts, if you would understand it. Electric science had also some "mad scientist" like Galvani or Tesla.

[@multivitamin425]

The great library of Alexandria played major role in this I believe

[@luistamayo1247]

Time traveller: breaths The timeline:

[@arnosaxena]

@whatifalthist nice videos, I enjoy watching them and ponder about your ideas. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't :) Anyway. One concept you've been following in this video is that without Gunpowder from China there would be no explosive weapons. But I think that is a misconception. There are many other randomly found (and simple) explosives in our timeline. For example if you look up en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Friedrich_Sch%C3%B6nbein Christian Schönbein. He "invented" guncotton by "mixing" sulfuric and nitric acid with cotton (more or less, he spilled the acids and wiped them up with the apron of his wife, which later combusted... simplified :D). There are some other "simple" explosives available that could have been invented by accident as well. Thus could have taken over the role of gunpowder at some time. A strong motivation for explosives lies not only in warfare, but for example mining as well. Thus, even in this timeline without the invention of gunpowder based on sulfur, charcoal and saltpeter, every mixture consisting of a fuel and an oxidizer could be a substitute. And with an industrialisation going on, I have no doubt the dabbling of alchemists into chemistry would have started much earlier as well, providing the "fertile soil" for coincidences and accidents to create those explosive eureka moments :)

[@christiandauz3742]

The Industrialized Greeks would conquer the Celts and Nomads using Steel Armor, Steel Pikes and Steel Crossbows Industrialization is a very big deal

[@RyuuTenno]

glad to see that someone put my theory into words. I've had an idea of how the world could potentially be far more advanced, had they established the steam engine and the railroad. Rapid industrialization of the bronze age prior to the rise of rome, would have absolutely altered the game. Though, it's also likely possible that some of these nations would end up being crippled upon meeting China since they figured out gunpowder. If they find out they keep getting beat by the others, at some point, they would've thought to outright weaponize it and mobilize their nation (to the best of their abilities) to create guns and related weapons. No idea how they'd fair against such a large and vast empire that has the ability to simply transport troops to the edges of their territory in a matter of days (versus the weeks or months needed traditionally); but, I imagine they could survive for a while before being completely dominated, if they're unable to hold it off to establish their own powerful empire.

[@felixemmanuelle3884]

A better video idea would be " What if Ancient Iran Industrialized " starting ftom the invention of the " Baghdad Battery " and the " Windmill ".

[@felixemmanuelle3884]

@brandon czech Literally how tech advances. People try new things and it leads to somethingelse.

[@videogamebomer]

What if modern Iran Industrialized?

[@felixemmanuelle3884]

@@videogamebomer That makes no sense since they have not only drone making capacity but also nuclear power plants a space program and something you wont hear from the " lame stream media " EMP tech. Your attempt at humor has failed.

[@brucemccall370]

Industrialized Carthage: You suggested that Carthage might have been an industrial competitor. This was unlikely due to the lake of resources in that part of the world. A nation needs iron to Industrialize. Iron needs iron ore and coal in large quantity. Both are heavy materials and thus need to be manufactured close to the sources of their materials. Charcoal would be an excellent substitute for coal, but would require lots of hardwood trees, but trees are hard to find in North Africa.

[@blkgardner]

The first industrialization was in the cloth industry. The word "fabric" which means factory in French (fabrique) means cloth in English, and the initial power looms used water wheels, with steam being a later invention. England itself was an importer of iron from Sweden and Russia in the early to mid 18th century.

[@theultimatefreak666]

The industrial revolution and it's consequences...

[@xcog4087]

For the human society

[@smb123211]

Industrialization requires four things - Knowledge of the universe (math, chemistry, physics). Education and markets. Inventors (Tesla, Edison, Westinghouse) and wealth (JP Morgan financed R&D and implementation). China made many crucial discoveries but most of it was trial and error - gunpowder, acupuncture, smelting, movable type, clocks, silk, etc but they didn't know why they worked and their culture prohibited public knowledge or improvement.