What if the Dwarves Accepted Sauron's Deal Against Bilbo? Theory

[@upschutt4842]

With these What-If questions I always thing: "We'd be toast" 😅 Great work. God bless you.

[@LarryFlathmann]

@@upschutt4842 yes like why do we even need to imagine what it would have been like this vid literally just needs to be like 30 seconds long. just long enough to say 'we'd be toast and not just toast but eaten toast.'

[@DamonNomad82]

Both scenarios are fascinating and very well done. In the second one, I expect that Gandalf and Strider would take the hobbits to the Grey Havens, not to try to take the Ring to Valinor, but to ask Cirdan for a ship to sail to Gondor, from which they would try to get the Ring to Mount Doom. I do have a quibble with one small detail in the narrative, however. At 3:56 Bilbo didn't age faster after parting with the Ring. That was something Peter Jackson came up with in the films. Bilbo physically remained at the age of 51 from when he found the Ring until it was destroyed. It's only after Frodo and his companions returned to Rivendell on the way home from the Quest that they found that Bilbo had resumed his natural age, though Tolkien didn't specify if the aging happened instantly when the Ring was destroyed or if it was a more gradual process over the next few months. At any rate, if parting with the Ring while it was still intact caused its former bearers to resume aging, Gollum would have died of old age shortly after the Ring abandoned him and Bilbo found it.

[@Jakblade]

Ive noticed that as well. Also I just noticed that on either a men of the west video or nerd of the rings just yesterday day. lol probably NOTR.

[@maxmercer1931]

Jokes on Sauron, the dwarves knew the Dwarven rings of power didn't do anything at all

[@Jakblade]

Wasn’t the rings like only notable power something like “you gotta have money to make more money” 😂😂 Thats about as helpful as crummy advice lol Forgive if I’m wrong I’m really not 100 percent sure but that’s about all I can remember off the top of my head lol

[@Nerd_Detective]

@@Jakblade My understanding is that the Nine Rings of Men and the Seven Dwarven Rings function in the same way. They enhance the native power of an individual and are designed to subjugate their wills under the One Ring. Sauron guided the elves in making these sixteen great rings with the expectation that elves would wear them and thus be bound to his will. This failed because the Three Rings of Elves were made in secret without his input, and the bearers sensed Sauron putting his One Ring on. Giving the other great rings to the Men and Dwarves was his backup plan when he realized the Elves learned of the deception (forcing him to take them by force). Unlike Men, Dwarves turned out to be resistant to corruption and evil. Sauron failed to bend them to his will. Instead, the Seven amplified the greed of the Dwarven kings while greatly enhancing their ability to accumulate hoards of wealth. Instead of dooming them to become Nazgul, their use of the rings doomed them to attract dragons, leading to four of these rings being consumed by dragonfire and leading to the doom of their greatest kingdoms. Presumably in the hands of a Man, one of Seven rings would have the same effect as the Nine: to enhance their natural power and make them great warriors, sorcerers, or kings, and to greatly extend their lifespans, only to inevitably fade them into the Unseen and subjugate their wills under the One.

[@MarshWaha]

@@Jakblade you’re not entirely wrong, it was more of their lust for gold. That is what the dwarf and rings of power did it just made them lust more for gold. I mean really the intention was that Sarah would bring the dwarves under his command, but it didn’t work. It only made them want a lust for gold, so you’re not entirely wrong but that’s what its true purpose is.

[@Name-di3ku]

​@@Nerd_Detective that was my understanding as well

[@orrointhewise87]

"Had enough of dwarves for one day!" Interesting theory 🤔 I would imagine that greed is the only way Sauron would b able to sway the dwarves in any way. It feels unlikely but maybe possible Now if the dwarves allied with Sauron outright then the war of the ring would have been much shorter

[@yodaslovetoy]

I'm glad that they looked the messenger straight in the knee caps and told him to go away

[@susiederkins6612]

That's a grudge

[@davidponseigo8811]

Seriously, that's the joke you went with ? Granted it's better than anything I could come up with but really ? A short person joke ! OK I admit it's was quite amusing !

[@alexanderkesterson6338]

Almost busted

[@shawn092182]

Messenger: I would cut off your head, Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground!

[@LarryFlathmann]

I nearly fell off when I read 'knee caps' 🤣

[@templars44]

Cool! Here is one possible idea, What if Smaug took the ring? Like if it fell out of bilbo's hand

[@ravenhill_of_midsummer_1968]

regarding the identity of the messenger i think the horseman in the night was the mouth of sauron.

[@Jakblade]

There’s a full video on that exact idea actually. It’s pretty inconclusive but points more to being a Nazgûl from what I remember. Still I like that theory a lot. Also in phil dragesh audio book he actually does the same voice for the messenger as the mouth of Sauron. You’d love that bit if you Havnt heard it. it’s absolutely worth a listen!👊

[@whiteknightcat]

And when the need of the Dwarves was greatest, they called for aid from Sauron. Then Sauron, waving his hands as if playing an air accordian, said, "Dwarves? What are these dwarves, for I have never heard of them. I have never met such kind. It must have been some other people who have dealt with them, for it was not I. Were they the ones who brought the coffee, maybe?"

[@kaidorade1317]

I love these what if scenarios! Still waiting on the what if Yoystan found the One Ring video

[@Adamadam-zc6pe]

This is it right here. This is gripping content for people who know the lore. More “what if” theory is always so much fun.

[@Relics_of_Arda]

I like the new logo intro. 😯👌

[@tripleb9491]

That was excellent!

[@therongjr]

While it's impossible to guess exactly what would've happened in hypothetical scenarios, we must always remember that in the legendarium, Eru Iluvatar is working behind the scenes toward his own purposes.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Excellent video!

[@maxmercer1931]

What I don't understand is everyone knew about the One Ring. Elrond not suspecting the One Ring just isn't plausible

[@irontemplar6222]

They new the ring existed, but the idea of some random hobbit picking it up and using it for party tricks would have made everyone go. "Ah so bilbo has some minor magic ring and likes to screw with everyone at his birthday party" If he indeed he used it much at all. Thats the other thing. Technically speaking outside of Sauron, the only people who knew much about the ring was. Celebrimbor (Who was dead, and arguably didn't know that much if anything), and than Aragorn's Ancestor High King Iseldur, he knew more about it than most discovering that the way to reveal the script of the ring could only be revealed by flame. To his credit he attempted to make his way to Rivendell but was ambushed on the way there, and died. His knowledge was left in the library of the white city, and never made its way to Elrond.

[@davidandrews2972]

Interesting theories. In the first case I think that Gandalf would not stand idly by; he can't directly impose his will onto the Free Peoples but he could put up one heck of an argument! I imagine that if he saw the One Ring being handed over to agents of Sauron even so then his mission would become "save what I can" so at that point he'd do everything to warn the other wizards and then the elves of what was coming, leaving them a grim choice of flee Middle-Earth before the coasts can be closed by the corsairs or go permanently into hiding.

[@aspelund76]

I think in the second scenario Gandalf might make the mistake of going to Isengard as he wouldn't know not to trust Saruman. Saurman would capture and take the ring from Frodo.

[@wolfmauler]

Sauron NEVER would've kept his word!

[@MJC1891]

Love the what ifs. Great work

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude thanks

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great theory vid

[@katherinegraham3803]

"His own friends, in Sam, Pippin, and Merry." [Disgruntled Fredegar Bolger noises]

[@roberthofmann8403]

Good vid

[@EricGasz69420]

Thingol in Valinor - “Pretty uncouth if you ask me”

[@janeczek16]

very interstgng theory! thank you :)

[@marionbaggins]

Man, I reread the turning point of This Theory Last Week, and atleast we had a better Outcome then inside!!! I was comparing that moment *or this Fan Theory* to 1 show I watch made by KZbinrs, where people Spoiled it, instead of Keeping it Zipped and they pay to watch it Early!!! I hated that!!! Man all of this talk of Elves and Dwarves reminds me I will be rewatching something I watched last Nearly 10 Years Ago that referenced 2 Elves in the Hobbit, and how they do it's really Funny, made by my Country for Australia Day 2014!!! Thanks, for Impactful What If, Until If Sauron needed his Rings to Win...Marion Baggins Out!!!

[@animistchannel]

In the second scenario, if the road to Rivendell were potentially blocked, the sensible thing to do would be to take it for the day-trip west from The Shire and borrow a stealthy boat from Cirdan, sail down the coast to the Anduin delta and up the river to Osgiliath. They could also have avoided Gondor and entered Mordor from the less-guarded south side of the Nurn region. Would have saved months on travel time, been well out of the way of spies, and left no trail to follow. Frankly, even in the scenario of the books themselves, this would have been the better strategic plan. Besidfes, without all the evil wounds and road-weariness, Frodo (with whatever other heroes at his side) would have chucked that puppy into the fire with no Gollum in sight, good riddance to bad rubbish. Of course, if they did that, it would have been a lot less of a story, because they would have snuck in before Mordor was even in full muster. Then, with Sauron gone and Saruman having no hope of magnifying his own power, he would avoid taking on Rohan/Gondor on his own, so he'd just switch back to playing good (and use his existing armies against other orc forces as shock troops, like "See, I was ready to help you all along, really!"). You'd have to rename the story from "The War of the Ring" to "The Piecemeal Mopping Up of Middle Earth" as the wizards rally the free peoples to clear out each lesser evil in turn. Eventually, you'd even have a White Council vs the Balrog event, and the Balrog would go down in quick fashion against the whole Council united. This is what happens when you go for efficient geopolitical tactics instead of maximum heroic story. The books we got are a much better tale, but they definitely did things the hard way at every turn.

[@VaderPopsVicodin10]

Love it how they all remained true and had Bilbo's back.. even venturing out to try and warn him.

[@EricCalhoun]

Good stuff except that Sauron knows where Rivendell is, he had it surrounded & under siege for 3 years during the War of the Elves & Sauron. It's just easy to defend and hard to move an army thru that land, too many mountain paths & bridges where everyone has to go single file. With the ring, Sauron would likely have to come to battle personally if he wanted it defeated quickly.

[@EricCalhoun]

Happened again in the War vs Angmar.

[@saladinbob]

So, question. Could mortals have killed (in the physical sense) Durin's Bane? Because I think it then raises another interesting question, would doing so remove a potential rival for Sauron?

[@Joe-h4i1939]

It definitely makes it so much easier for the dwarfs to take back Moria if could

[@FireLordJohn3191]

Not sure the Balrog had any ambitions beyond what Morgoth had given it.

[@saladinbob]

@@Joe-h4i1939 Yup, that's where I'm going with the question.

[@Joe-h4i1939]

@@saladinbob to be honest I don’t think durins bane was a rival to Sauron at all

[@tomstahl509]

The least of Rings, A trifle that Sauron fancies.

[@darktenor4967]

Tolkien tells us that the dwarven rings could multiply gold, in addition to making the dwarves far more avaricious than usual. This didn't effect Thrór after leaving the lonely mountain, since he didn't have much gold to work with, so didn't make much use of the ring. however, if the dwarves of Erebor, with their huge treasure hoard got three multiplying rings, methinks things would've gone very badly, perhaps with the dwarves of Erebor becoming just as greedy for gold and likely to destroy to get it as Smaug himself, even more so if Sauron had the one ring and thus had more influence over the dwarves who bore the three. Indeed, I always had the impression that the four lost dwarven rings also coincided with the destruction of several dwarven kingdoms.

[@ultramaximusreviews]

I do not think Gandalf would have left the company of Dwarves heading back to the Lonely Mountain - I think he would have went with and put up a fight when they brought it to Daine.

[@Joe-h4i1939]

I do enjoy what if. There is so many in Lord of the Rings

[@chrisberotti5876]

What's interesting point is how would the ring affect someone who had the intent to return it?

[@Heike--]

The only other time the Mouth o fSauron makes an appearance. It's clearly him because he's Sauron's diplomat, and a Ringwraith would have terrified the Dwarves.

[@j0b01231]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You should do a ‘what if Sauron repented at the end of the war of wrath ?’ Would it be a genuine repentance? Would he be taken back to Valinor as prisoner like Melkor ? Or would the Valar have learned their lesson? What would Middle-earth look like if the rings of power don’t get forged ? What would happen to Numenor ?

[@shadowofchaos8932]

What if Smaug was in Moria and The Balrog was in Erebor?

[@Rorschachqp]

This part of the story doesn't make sense. When the dwarves got rings, they dug further and got greedier. If the dwarves got the One Ring, why would they give it to Sauron? They would just go underground.

[@teslasnek]

Who is to say that the one ring would have the same effect on the dwarves as the seven dwarf Rings? 🤔

[@Rorschachqp]

@@teslasnek Whose to say the One Ring would have no effect? Because it would have to have no effect in order for them to just hand it over. And remember, Sauron already miscalculated how the other rings’ he made effects would have on the dwarves.

[@teslasnek]

@@Rorschachqp I don't know, but it always seemed to me in the books that Gimli out of everyone in the fellowship had very little interest in the one ring or being tempted to take it 🤔

[@Rorschachqp]

@@teslasnek Yeah but that’s one individual dwarf. The ring affected Boromir differently than Faramir and their brothers.

[@teslasnek]

@@Rorschachqp Good point 🤔

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

Regaining even one of the rings would have contributed the pattern of the dwarves eventual misfortune. Thrain loosing the last ring the death of Smaug the reclamation of Erbeibor abd the choice of both Thorin and then Dain to choose honor and home home over greed when in positions of kingship broke the cycle. That’s when Saroun realized they would never be slaves to his influence

[@Grievousbg1]

I love these theory videos, but at the same time of all of the 'what ifs' I think is the most unlikely to happen. The Longbeards would never be swayed by Sauron, especially one not hidden and not using cunning. King Dain would never have agreed to any offer by Sauron, as we actually know from the canon timeline. I do admit I am a bit of a dwarf enjoyer, so I am biased! I still love the 'What if' series!

[@adb9231]

Great vid, as usual thank you. The dwarves being the great workers of stone they are, may have been able to collapse enough tunnels to corner and isolate the Balrog and so inhabit Moria reasonably safely....With all the orcs gone, and with reinforcements from the Blue Mountain clans, there could have been thousands of dwarves to secure Moria and build defences. Possible although a very dodgy neighbour to have to live next to. If the worst came to the worst and the Balrog got free, it prompts the question, how big would a prepared and armoured dwarf army have to be to defeat it? 100? 500? 1000? It is conceivable. Dain would know this.

[@neilbakshi7365]

It is indeed remarkable that the Dwarves didn't go for this deal. Good eye in spotting this huge moment in the plot.

[@brandonmunsen6035]

Thank you for bringing some peace to my mind. Mental health is a b but Lotr is some of my favorite medicine.

[@maylabrown4584]

What if The Dwarves tricking Sauron by agreeing to the terms only if Sauron had freed Moria for them first? In fact, they could have had Bilbo stay with them after the messenger left. Then give word that they have the One Ring but will not come out until Moria is free, of which will need to be confirmed by a certain date and only by a certain messenger (likely a dwarf or something else). Not known to Sauron would be that the Dwarves would lie to him, instead leaving Bilbo completely alone and anonymously returning him back to the Shire, perhaps giving word to Gandalf so that he and the White Council could cover Bilbo’s Return and/or assist the Dwarves in the reclamation of Moria now that the Balrog would be dead and Sauron’s forces are weakened.

[@13mgreg]

I think if the dwarves sent an envoy, saruman would have inevitably picked up on it with all of his recon. I'll add every event in this scenario would also be an opportunity for saruman to intervene and take it

[@zachwalker9420]

Pretty sure if the dwarves took or forced frodo to give them the ring with anything more than their words it would have broken his mind. Gandalf says about as much in FotR about bilbo. Also, if tolkien wrote it that way, no chance the dwarves get over the misty mountains let alone to the lonely mountain without being ambushed.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

What if Hurin was killed and Huor captured ?

[@00martoneniris86]

What if the expedition of Erebor was instead for moria

[@cacogenicist]

Another scenario presents itself -- the Dwarfs agree with the messenger to retrieve the ring, but figure out what it is once they have it, and so decide to keep it.

[@timw483]

Here's an extra wrinkle in the info-only premise. When this would have happened, Saruman's treachery would as yet be unknown. Gandalf might have taken Frodo and the Ring to Isengard to escape. Then what would happen?

[@paulsarnik8506]

7:30 What sbout Fredegar? Don't He get anything?🤷🏼‍♂️😮. 🤓😎✌🏼

[@franciscomerino5150]

I'd think the dwarves would have been followed by spies to both Rivendel and the Shire. Other than that, great scenarios!

[@wagon9082]

Good video

[@MrsMacLover]

The Dwarves didn't even get corrupted by the Rings Sauron gave them, so...

[@istari0]

They did but in a different manner. It made their desire for gold and other treasure overwhelming. Acquiring more such treasure became their obsession and it resulted in dragons coming down on them. The One Ring was also much more powerful.

[@TarMody]

If Dain Ironfoot had possessed the ring given to the last of the Seven, the House of Durin, as stated in this theory, he would have acted out of greed and given information about Bilbo in exchange for Moria.

[@TheCrazyCanuck420]

What if Butterbur found Frodo's ring? 😂

[@adb9231]

😆

[@wolfmauler]

@@TheCrazyCanuck420 One thing would drive out another and he'd misplace it 😏

[@iandennis7836]

What if Butterbur had delivered Gandalf's letter on time? In my view, this is a great 'what if' ......

[@TheCrazyCanuck420]

@@iandennis7836 I agree 👍

[@gfromt-town1105]

The first theory is surely doom. The second theory interests me. Please elaborate more in a future video.

[@lukashrabovsky3516]

What if: Bilbo as nazghul on his funky ponny :D

[@irontemplar6222]

Hey Yosten. Hes on odd what if. What if the Elves fell for Sauron's plan, and Celebrimbor instead of forging the Elven rings in secret forged them with the aide of his "friend" Anatar the lord of gifts? Another question, What if it was the Men instead of the elves who showed wisdom and saw the rings as a monkey's paw, and given with darker intent?

[@LethannGaming]

Do what if Morgoth returned in dol guldor at the same time as Sauron and The Nazgul?

[@kid1072000]

I have a question, but I want to apologize first because I haven’t read the books, I have only watched the movies. I thought before the events of the Fellowship, no dwarf was aware of the fall of Moria. Isn’t that why Gimli seeks Moria as refuge during they’re trek up Caradhras?

[@jennifersthibodeau]

The fall of Moria was known to all, however, a group of Dwarves under Balin, returned following the happenings of The Hobbit. While there had been sparse communication, it was not known that the Moria led by Balin had fallen to the orcs (ultimately the energy of Durins Bane)

[@kid1072000]

@@jennifersthibodeau thanks for clarifying that. I appreciate it!

[@markstott6689]

Such a bleak outlook. I don't like to contemplate how things might have turned out. 😢❤❤❤😢

[@IronDragon-2143]

A deal with the devil never ends well.

[@dirtbird7415]

Sauron lost with the ring first go round , no reason to think he would fare any better second go round.

[@FrankBarnwell-xi8my]

If the 1st Black Rider actually overcame Frodo, Samwise and Pippin, in Three is Company; it's ring combined with The One Ring. Would he surrender It to Sauron?

[@bokakev]

If sauron is Lawful Evil like everyone says, why is he OK with lying all the time?

[@abhijitpawar1568]

Thank you for finally making this video? Make a video on how the ring would affect different members of the Fellowships.

[@alexanderkesterson6338]

What if smaug lived long enough to fall over dale instead of lake town and the dwarves used his scales

[@melvinmolly4151]

Could Sauron kill the Balrog ?

[@gandalf4751]

😍😍😍✅✅✅

[@00martoneniris86]

what if the dwarves entered moria after the battle of azanulbizar

[@a.d.clarke4990]

Nah! Sauron could not ultimately “win” in any scenario. The fate of Arda and the universe ultimately bends to the will of Eru. The valar would simply have to act.

[@ClareBearBunny]

What if Sauron had never made the ring at all?

[@The_Tradie_Trainer]

What if Bill the Pony found the ring?

[@bv_7766]

Fucking commercials on this site are out of hand now. There’s a commercial every minute.

[@Luke-kj1rj]

Imagine the disgust you'd feel if an emissary of sauron knocked on your door asking for fealty

[@istari0]

I just don't think Dain would have done either of these things. You would need for him to have somehow died and been replaced on the throne by a Dwarf with lesser character.