What is a DRAPER TAPER?

[@Chescat124]

I love eating tape.

[@TheGs4_4449]

Me too!

[@Mads0808]

Me too… me too. (Joke)

[@AmtrakGuy365]

i eat paper

[@LongIslandRailfanner]

@@AmtrakGuy365 well Jared I recommend loose leaf, it tastes pretty good😋

[@harrisonofcolorado8886]

​@@AmtrakGuy365 paper is better than tape

[@bobsmith2637]

CN engineer here, the cowl body was intended not only to protect equipment and people from snow and ice but also to make maintenance access easier, the majority of the long hood is made of latched and hinged panels or doors that are easily opened. It's pretty cramped inside an F or E-unit and none of the body or roof sections can be opened by hand. Not sure about the MLWs but on the EMD and GE cowls the middle of the long hood wasn't attached to the rear or front sections and would sway back and forth sideways as you went down the track, quite flimsy compared to the rest of the locomotive, definitely just a shed. I suspect CN switched back to standard units simply because the custom body style cost more to buy. They weren't popular with crews in later years because of noise, no air conditioning and having desktop control stands, which most engineers find uncomfortable compared to the standard type. And of course you couldn't see backwards, which made them particularly painful to switch with. Both CN and BC Rail upgraded their C40-8Ms over the years, and by the end they were all basically 4000 HP Dash-9s under the hood. They were all pretty worn out when they were eventually retired, the 5500s rode especially rough and would hunt dangerously once you got up to 25 or 30 mph. The 4618 that the Edmonton museum got might have been the last one to get some major work, it was being used on work trains and locals even after most of them were withdrawn and I remember it having fresh shop writing on a bunch of parts. For all their faults when new they represented a significant step forward, the 5500s and 2400s were CN's first real 'third generation' motive power and at the time the company was willing to put their money where their mouth was, paying extra for custom units that were supposed to make our time at work a little easier.

[@brianburns7211]

I ran them quite a bit too. I echo the comments about the heat and noise. Additionally, they were the first desktop control. I got used to them eventually, but wasn’t a fan. It was cramped sitting at a desk after being used to being able to stretch out on the SD40 predecessors. Buffs go wild over them, but running them wasn’t fun.

[@hungrymoose7627]

Hi, I work at the Alberta Railway Museum. Work is being done to get 4618 operational again (it doesn't need much, its in amazing condition) and its available for cab tours during our hours of operation. Unfortunately we won't be able to run her until we upgrade the track on our 1/2 mile "mainline" because its only 80lbs rail and Dash 8s are only good for 100lbs rail minimum as per operating standards for both CN and CP. But track upgrades are in the future. Please consider making a donation if you want to see it happen, every bit helps.

[@OfficialSEIC2K6]

Any plans for a repaint back to BC Rail paint?

[@hungrymoose7627]

@@OfficialSEIC2K6 No, 4618 is in amazing condition including its paint. If someone were to make a donation and request it yes we would, but we have more pressing things to attend to, like our steam locomotive 1392 needing boiler work, our F3 CN 9000 needing a mechanical overhaul and paint and the aforementioned track work.

[@OfficialSEIC2K6]

@@hungrymoose7627 oh ok

[@hungrymoose7627]

@@backonpro5679 We're always looking for volunteers

[@xyrothryu]

Ah I remember that engine, it was always great for trainees who would forget it’s a bcol engine when taking a clearance

[@danielferrovias]

CPKC after acquiring CMQ: Oh Hello again SD40-2F

[@B52Stratofortress1]

CP was certainly not expected to keep these units.

[@modified_2t22]

Sad they disappeared, I really like their asthetics.

[@turkeytrac1]

There's a number of them working in North Dakota

[@ericwillcoxen7856]

I used to work on a small class three railroad in New Mexico that connected to and took trains from the BNSF and one time on one of the inbound trains there was a CN EMD cowl unit. It was cool to see a cowl unit and even walk through the engine room, but I thought it was funny to see a locomotive that was ment to keep the snow at bay for the crew during Canadian winters, in the deserts of south eastern New Mexico.

[@modelrailpreservation]

So many fond memories of seeing these while out railfanning back when I was a teenager. I don't think I've seen a Draper Taper 'in the wild' since.

[@TheWinnipegRailfan]

This reminded me of the good old days of coming out at recess and watching the CP red barns going by, I'm gonna miss them when they're retired... or rebuilt to hydrogen units, lol

[@gloryannbatista6211]

For the 1st time in my life I would actually agree with @The Winnipeg Railfan

[@DJ-Cooper]

YESSSS AMTRAKGUY YOU REACHED 100k!!!!!!! SILVER PLAY BUTTON 🩶🩶🩶 congratulations you’ve come such a long way. Ive been watching your videos for several years and wondered when you would reach 100k, and here you are! I cannot stress how happy I am for you enough. You’ve made the second half of my childhood a dream, and I thank you for that. Keep inspiring people the way you inspired me, because you’ve had me hooked for years lol Sorry if this is akward I thought I might make you a comment for reaching 100k I’ve been thinking it over for like 2 weeks now lol Thank you for your time and reading this message it means a lot From a fellow Michigander, and your biggest fan.

[@Pensyfan19]

Great to see a full length video about these quirky Canadian icons. I have a feeling that a certain youtube channel who makes similar videos who based his name on these engines might leave a comment here... I'm also glad to see my home railroad, the Long Island Railroad, making an appearance right at the intro with their blue and white GP38s, and that LHF footage of the Cowl at 3:37 is pretty insane. UPDATE: Apparently the footage of the LIRR GP38 caught a rare experimental paint scheme where a white block was placed on the short hood for better visibility. Photos of this short lived livery are almost impossible to find.

[@JessicaKasumi1990]

Glad to see you here, Pensy.

[@Nurvington]

Glad to see that LIRR geep in the intro as well.

[@roberthuron9160]

Add,at one point in time,both the C420'S,and GP-38's were still covering passenger push-pulls,along with the FA's and F's! Heady days,and you never knew what was going to turn up,at Mineola! Thank you 😇 😊 !

[@Nurvington]

@@roberthuron9160 You got that right. Glad folks filmed it as quite a few good videos of that time are on KZbin Ages ago already.

[@OfficialSEIC2K6]

William L. Draper was a genius for making the draper taper design. Thanks to him, we have classy Cowl units. CP SD40-2Fs live on and one C40-8M is preserved. Thanks Jared for documenting these locomotives

[@thetoontrain473]

Never though locos could have low taper fades

[@LongIslandRailfanner]

I like ya cut g *Slaps them back into service* -CPKC probably

[@157RANDOM]

Sad to see them go as a railfan, as a railroader thank god. They were hot, loud, and uncomfortable. Heaters were good though. BCOL 4609 is the last Dash 8-40CM in service with CN out west. It sat on the deadline at Mac Yard for a while but was sent out to Prince George, I think. On a side note, just ordered a Rapido C40-8M BCOL 4609 from Weather My Trains, and an quite excited for it to arrive. I'm having it weathered to reflect how it looked in mid-2022 when I last worked with it.

[@justletmefailinpeace9099]

As best I can tell, it was up in Prince George for about a year, then it was spotted leading a train down to Vancouver about a month ago. By the time I heard this had happened it was already sent off somewhere else. I expect that it was sent back to Prince George, but I doubt anyone'll know for a few months until someone takes a picture and tags the location.

[@droptopeclipse]

That’s awesome. I just got my OtterValley faded BC Rail 4620. Love the detail. I have two from the last run and there are quite a few differences. Also love the subtle differences between the CN and BC rail versions.

[@justletmefailinpeace9099]

One: Congrats on reaching sextuple digit subscribers! Two: BC Rail 4609 is still around! My dad saw her leading a train towards Vancouver about a month ago. He didn't know just how special that was and didn't know to get a picture, and by the time I heard about it about a week had passed. So, 4609 is somewhere on the CN system, seemingly having spent a lot of time up in and around Prince George over the last few years. No pictures of 4609, but I did learn that Neptune Terminals in North Van have some kind of odd road slug genset units (some NRE 3GS21Bs). And I did notice CN 2433 in Thornton Yard, one of CN's own C40-8M's.

[@bobsmith2637]

Heard from one of our shop guys that the 2433 caught on fire when it was being load tested a few years ago, the shop just kept it around as a parts source. Probably missing a bunch of stuff by now.

[@lucalanciotti2556]

Sometimes I dream about cheese ( It’s a Half Life 2 reference if you guys didn’t notice)

[@gabestalin2384]

Same

[@Chescat124]

Average person from Wisconsin:

[@Jambivids]

Have it be noted theycrave the chedda, good Gouda forbidden frumunda fondue bubbling font of french ganch

[@CheeseMiser]

Hmm

[@Corky3D]

As an American I love the Full width cowl body locos. Sad we never really had them, minus the F40, F/Fp45's and F59PH. To make up for us not having/getting them. I custom made my own. Mainly in HO scale, but some in trains. Updated them with more modern cabs, like GE cabs, or SD70i, SD70ACE Cabs both T2 & T4. Ect...

[@able_archer01]

2:18 Never thought I'd see CrazyScoutFIN referenced in a video about trains.

[@electrik_loss]

Same lol

[@n2nitro444]

The last C40-8M is BCRail 4609 and is in yard service in Prince George, BC

[@James_Knott]

Near the beginning of this video was a Datapoint 2200 terminal. Back in the mid 70s, I used to maintain systems built around them for CN. The system was called TRACS and was used to keep track of freight train consists and the 2200 communicated with an IBM mainframe computer in Montreal.

[@molossis]

average railroad animator starterpack: loves anime actually good drawing skills very informative drawn profile picture 20-30 years old everything you need for very good content 👍

[@Redfox351-wk2zn]

as someone from the bangor area. i had no idea that we had one of these as a heritage unit with the city and county plasterd on the side

[@grabasandwich]

I'm not a railfan. Just a guy whose dad was a railroader from around '71 - '08. The CN mainline was right behind house I grew up in, and my dad often tossed stuff off on his way by. Whether it was water bottles, brooms, whatever. Anyway, I think it was in the early 90s he snuck me on 5313 (an SD40 apparently...just looked it up again) and I got to ride for a bit leaving Winnipeg going west I think? I forget how it went down. I was around 10-12. Another time, he knew the crew on the VIA train we boarded to go East. They let me ride with them leaving MB into ON. I remember stopping in a siding deep in the bush and picking blueberries! My Dad owned a cabin in NW ON near Minaki, and the same mainline was across the lake from him. I swear I'd feel the ground shake, even though it was across the water. He sold it a few years ago, and I rarely went anyway. As badly as I wanted to be out there, I used to avoid him as much as possible. Thankfully he's mellowed in recent years, and my kids don't see that side of him. Anyhoo, there were times being the kid of "hoghead" could be interesting, but he was gone a lot (even though he claims he booked off a lot more time than his buddies) and he also spent a lot of time doing health and safety stuff for the union. Cool video btw. Cheers!

[@HrtBkr]

0:23 the music sounds like hes about to say "Hey Vsauce Micheal here"

[@TTREST2022]

I really miss those BCOL & CN C40-8Ms. It’s sad that most of them except for BCOL 4618 was sold to the Alberta Railway Museum.

[@JackTheRailfan]

BCOL 4609 is still around, It is being kept strictly as a yard unit in Prince George, BC

[@Nderak]

i thought this going to be about the diagonal strips but it was even better

[@nathancorcoran5347]

These are kinda unusual locomotives with the Draper Taper design, I can’t remember if I notice this before or not. But it’s pretty interesting here.

[@shedhead]

Oh wow, I am currently camping and there is a CN Rail next to it just outside of Calgary, AB in a small town call Irricana. I just saw a train pass by with 5 Locomotives on it (it was not a big train, but must have been just relocating some units back to Calgary), and pretty sure I just saw one of these Draper Taper Locomotives in the middle. Pertty cool to just watch this video then notice when the train passed.

[@twinboo529]

The Kirby 64 music is really nostalgic

[@adensrailfanningproductions]

the urge to say "imagine if ninja got a low taper fade" is strong

[@Rickybnsf]

Wait I didn't know CP kept some barns from CMQ! I need to catch one now!!! ❤

[@detroitdieselseries5071]

Should note that William Draper went to the USSR and took notes from Soviet railways at the time. Perhaps the SD50Fs and SD60Fs were based off of the 2TE10s and 2TE116s then

[@JackGourdon-je4ze]

im happy to see you back Jared! i hope you can make another Engines of Amtrak video, but either way great video!

[@TRM-1-v]

Great Video! BCOL 4609 still operates with CN being used as yard power in Prince George's BC (also being the sole C40-8M Survivor) CMQ 9017 was sent to be repainted as it was last seen on NS 143 bound for Mayfield KY a month ago

[@JackTheRailfan]

I was the one who discovered 4609 was a yard unit in Prince George and I hope that they can keep it from scrap.

[@157RANDOM]

@RLM382-3 I last worked with 4609 in 2022 on an extra 106 iirc from Capreol to Toronto. She sat on the dead line in Mac Yard for a while before she went out west.

[@OfficialSEIC2K6]

#4618 is alive and well in Alberta though

[@157RANDOM]

@Slipperyisimproving In preservation, though. 4609 is the last in service. Was in Revenue service on the mailine until about 2022 then sat on the dead line at Mac Yard before being sent to Prince George to work as a yard unit

[@OfficialSEIC2K6]

@@TRM-1-v but why are they repainting it? It looks good wearing BAR heritage colors.

[@ronparrish6666]

Wasn't it CN many years ago that designed the safety cab for there fleet and then the rest of the railroads started ordering them

[@ACLTony]

Railfans often called these units "Draper Tapers" and "Canadian Taper Cabs". Cool looking locomotives. Cool to know that there are still a number of them in service.

[@bobjohnson205]

In '83 CP leased 4 HR-616s from CN just to try them out. During the 6 months that they had them, they ran them mostly on their 481 & 482 trains running between Montreal and Winnipeg. They were basically an updated MLW (ALCO) and I found them to be no better than the MLWs that CP had purchased in the late '60s and early 70s. In the end CP thankfully chose not to purchase any and continued on with their SD40-2s.

[@EBsRailfanProductions]

Nice job on the video & your are welcome for the footage of some of the SD40-2F's I shot.

[@dfwrailvideos]

You've probably hit 100k by the time you read this, so congratulations on 100k! Great video as always.

[@F40PH_307]

Awesome Video as always! And your almost to 100K Congrats!

[@transportsaucanada2844]

BCOL 4609 is still in service although used almost exclusively at Prince George. CN theoretically still has several Dash-8s stored on the network so at Winnipeg-Edmonton-Toronto it could return to the network in the event that the economy recovers strongly which will probably not happen unfortunately. Even if in the United States the Dash-8s were more learder on the trains in Canada they only stayed at the end.

[@Buckturrible]

I used to love the c90-8m’s and was sad to hear they were no longer in service a few years ago. I seen 9017 in red deer this past spring though and was ecstatic to see a full cowl once again.

[@TheQuebecRailfan]

You are about to hit 100k subscriber, congrat!

[@SeptaShorts]

“Imagine if CN got a lOw TaPeR fAdE” 🔥

[@AroyalOfficalYT]

Hey Amtrak guy 365 love ur content And i have been watching ur videos for a while and the fact its my birthday is really cool and i hope u keep makeing more cool videos!

[@winkelmannchannel971]

I’ve seen 3 C40-8M’s Anyway 2 SD40-2’F’s are still CMQ colors and that class of locomotives was the last SD40-2’s built for anybody. Also BCOL C40-8M 4609 is still in service in British Columbia mostly for switching in Prince George

[@AE6YT-Glenn]

[@callumnichols7652]

I think a fun video idea would be on The Illinois Central's Paducah Rebuild program.

[@ThundercatDarklion]

I remember seeing the IC / ICG Paducah Geeps growing up in Willow Springs Illinois in the 1980s since the former GM&O's Chicago to St. Louis line ran behind the homes and businesses that are / were along Archer Ave. . Also got to see some of the former GM&O locomotives. Now the former GM&O Chicago to St. Louis line is shared by the CN and the UP. Also the former Santa Fe's (BNSF) Chicago to LA line goes through Willow Springs Illinois on the other side of the canals ( The Illinois & Michigan canal which is no longer used and the replacement The Ship & Sanitary canal which is an major barge traffic and sewage waterway to prevent raw sewage from going into Lake Michigan) and the Desplanes River.

[@ThundercatDarklion]

I've also seen an few of them painted for Chicago Central Red which was an IC spinoff while others in the worn IC / ICG patch painted locomotives with CC reporting marks.

[@callumnichols7652]

@@ThundercatDarklion that's pretty cool. I was in Waycross last year, and saw an NREX GP10 still in it's Chicago Central/Illinois Central paint. It's also been sitting there since I think 2006 lol.

[@droptopeclipse]

Love the timing of this video matching the release of Rapido’s HO 8-40CM’s. Bowser just dropped some SD40-2f’s last month. I got one of both as they look awesome!!

[@xxmattopsxx3931]

Im fairly certain we have one of these where I live working the railyard. We had some massive power outages in our province, and we actually saw it moving power pole around the province for a bit.

[@RailPreserver2K]

Hey Amtrak I'm just curious but have you thought of doing a video covering the locomotives used in the famous western films made by Sergio leone? I ask because when i tried finding info on the equipment nothing came up, plus i think some equipment was actually wrecked in the film "A Fistful of dynamite"

[@train_lover_2004]

I actually saw a CP Rail SD40-2F (9010) "Red Barn" with a few friends in Thunder Bay yesterday and it was so cool

[@BoiseValleyRailfanning]

I recently saw won while ona train trip, at a engine shop in Vancouver, BC

[@roberthuron9160]

Loved seeing the CN Zebras,years ago,actually spotted a brace of them in New Jersey! Definitely interesting! Thank you 😇 😊!

[@AlexTrain5249]

It’s great to be close to a place where some of the last SD60Fs are running. 5513, 5517, 5518, 5519, 5525, and 5535. There were way more at the Northern Plains HQ in Fordville, ND. Almost 1/3 of all of CN’s SD60Fs were there. Likely being used for spares.

[@ShenandoahValleyrailfan1218]

Great video, the Draper taper is ionic in Canadian railroad. Keep up on the good work

[@canadianbacon2205]

id love to see a video about canadian safety cabs

[@craiglacey9827]

I’ve recently seen some of these units working for Savage Industries, switching soda-ash mines in southwestern Wyoming.

[@57Jimmy]

I’m a 66yr old 🇨🇦, seen MANY trains, but this is the first time the Draper Traper became noticed to me! No I gotta run…(sort of👴🏻) down to the tracks and wait for one to go by!

[@SpaceTalk-Aero]

100K!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 congratulations man!

[@cameronbracken3228]

outta nowhere my fav train guy used a crazyscoutfin clip Dude just keeps getting more perfect by the second

[@rottenroads1982]

In the end, EMD & GE should return to Freight Cowl Units, and so should Railroad Companies. Maybe have a Cool Bio-Diesel Cowl unit locomotive. It can be an SD70MAC locomotive but it’s a Bio-Diesel and a Cowl Unit. The SDF70MAC-BD (BD standing for Bio-Diesel). Also, when people say that Cowl & Cab units have an aesthetically pleasing appearance when paired with Passenger Trains, I would like to tell them that they look aesthetically pleasing when pulling Freight Too.

[@beeble2003]

"EMD & GE should return to Freight Cowl Units" Why?

[@rottenroads1982]

@@beeble2003, Because Cowl Units that pull freight trains are COOL (and please don't be the kind of guy who gets into the whole "But it's Impractical" Bull Crap). Cowl Units, like I said, look good pulling Freight as well as passengers.

[@beeble2003]

@@rottenroads1982 Sorry but the railroads aren't there to entertain railfans. They occasionally nod in that direction (heritage paint schemes, UP's steam locos, etc.) but 99.9% of their job is moving freight. If you want to say "I wish they'd return to freight cowl units" then fine but to say that they _should_ is silly.

[@domin8r12]

let's get this man to 100k!

[@harryrigdon8496]

Can you talk about heritage units and how they came about make a series if you want to its alot to ask

[@smokelesschoice165]

One of the pics of the CP SD40-2F's that say 1988 - 1989 in brackets if you're suggesting the 9000 series was retired in 1989 is incorrect. I worked with those units (especially #9000 and #9001) in the summer of 1990 and 1991.

[@lorrified]

I like the GP38-2W, its look-alikes and cowl units. And the fact that the SD50F looks like a GP38-2W from the front but a cowl version on the sides makes it even better

[@beeble2003]

Really not sure what you mean by saying that an SD50F is basically a GP38-2W. They're completely different, both in obvious ways (six axles vs four, significantly larger and heavier) and mechanically (e.g., 950rpm 645F3B engine vs 900RPM 645E, turbocharger vs Roots blower, electronig wheelslip control).

[@lorrified]

@@beeble2003 well i mean from the front it looks like a GP38-2W but from the sides its a cowl SD50 with some slight changes

[@beeble2003]

@@lorrified OK, so basically you're just saying that EMD's wide cabs look similar to each other.

[@lorrified]

@@beeble2003 yes exactly

[@0fficialdregs]

I love these type of locmotives, been trying to get some Custom N scale locomotives with the Full Cowl designs

[@alm5992]

I don't know why I never realized there was a corridor in these- even though every other train has them x.X. I always wondered why the power plant needed windows lol!

[@ALCO-C855-fan]

I LOVE the HR-616!!!

[@BNSFTrains10]

4:24 However as of December 2024, the 9017 has been Repainted into Canadian Pacific's Beaver Scheme.

[@stevenrobertson3635]

Favorite locomotives ever especially the SD60F. I hope one gets preserved

[@Amrep335]

Ah Yes "Drake Tapper Paper Laper Glaper Naper fade with a Hing of Dieseil" Who wouldnt want that😂

[@briangasser973]

I like the LIRR locomotive in the intro

[@gloryannbatista6211]

The only thing I like of the cowl Units is that on is the BC rail engines have the K5H (Which if you don't know is a extremely popular horn)

[@SouthPacificCoastRailroad]

Who gave the locomotive a low taper fade?!?

[@TheModelRailroader152]

Not so long ago, my friends caught 9017 on the P&L (short line) railroad heading to CP shops, apparently to get repainted or rebuilt

[@epa_42a]

IMAGINE IF SD60F GOT A LOW TAPER FADEEEE

[@labradorite8760]

Im From Labrador, and i love the addition of QNS&L tapers.

[@Amigafur]

You're so close to 100k!

[@BeginCTC]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 9017 is currently in KY getting refurbed by Progress Rail where it will also be getting a full CP red repaint like its sister units that went through the shops.

[@darthmichaelstrainz1519]

I'm glad the Bangor and Aroostook was mentioned in this video as well as the CM&Q. Also it's pronounced Bang-gor

[@manjotgrewal33]

Congrats at 100k🎉

[@wdhewson]

I used to work with Bill Draper. A real railroad man.

[@yeeyee9694]

I remember when DMVW first took delivery of these I saw the livery and I was like wtf. The horns on them are so creepy to hear at night.

[@Whos_bozo]

I’ll have to go see 4618 I haven’t been to the railway museum in awhile

[@barryj388]

Were these used in specific regions. I worked for CN in the 1980s and 1990s and don't remember ever working on one of those.

[@SalmanMentos]

"But why?" **insert Vsauce music**

[@mwarnas]

Great, I clicked this by accident and now I have to delete it from my history so KZbin won’t think I’m a train nerd

[@CJSHM]

What happened to the BC Rail units? I saw one from the train in Northern Sakastchewan in 2019

[@GarrettBarclay7690]

Imagine reversing in white out conditions and ending up on the side of the tracks due to hitting a massive snow drift

[@RockyisjustRocky]

You should make a video on what leasing companies are and what there purpose is

[@scale_model_apprentice]

I really liked that opening shot of the F40. What is the source for it, an old Amtrak commercial?

[@Nderak]

also congrats on 100k

[@traindudeaaa]

the cn and cp low taper fade units my favourite.

[@Amtrak600]

Nice Video Jared! Subscribed!

[@Xanthughaxyladecathyine]

I never knew that these locomotives had an actual name. I've seen these types of locomotives on CN and CP. Also the idea for the 'Draper Taper' is a reasonable idea for why it came to be, but how it was introduced wasn't a very good.

[@mcfc_lads1894]

Speaking of taper dude so you know that the low taper fade is like dude, its still massive, massive

[@OwenSaxton-g4z]

Hey, to anybody who knows, what kind of cab are these engines using with all these sepperate windows and such? I find them very visually appealing and like to draw them, except I dont know what their called😅

[@NavigatorBR]

I appreciate the "Laid Back Camp" reference. Shame these don't appear often from model train suppliers.

[@Eric5ohhh]

Hey will you be making an Engines of Amtrak video of the Siemens AlC-42 charger?

[@sc0tte1-416]

Living in a house with a cn line behind it I saw these on a daily basis. Even the local GO service had the rounded out ones as I called them with slugs as I now know their called