What Is the European Super League and Why Did It Fail? | The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Ringer's Bill Simmons talks with The Ringer's Chris Ryan about the potential European "Super League," including who proposed it, why certain teams are involved, how likely it is to fall apart, and much more.
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[@CitizenoftheWorld1]

Of all the Americans I listened to who tried to tackle this issue, you guys were spot on. Bravo 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@2shmad2k10]

Cheers lads, Chris has been the most informed of the yanks I've heard from and pretty much nailed it

[@robpettifer4495]

He used “ yanks.” Good enough for me

[@FKF95]

The disrespect to Big Cat

[@MrHurricane131]

Jason concepcion was good too

[@siemprerm2763]

except for the saudi arabia part obviously esl teams want to play in their stadiums the most amount of elite games for revenue to increase

[@tmtbtw_]

Genuinely credit to you guys as Americans for producing a great, informed conversation on the topic with a genuine awareness of what football means in Europe. I've seen so much ignorance from others on this topic the last few days

[@crissal4730]

Also, British football fans hate the idea of franchises as these owners would not think twice to relocate a team from one city to another. The club is imbedded in the fabric of the cities as these clubs were created by the working class in the late 1800’s. This was deeper than sport. They see American owners not as owners but investors that have property managers overseeing their international assets trying to make money from the world’s biggest clubs.

[@user-jz5vg8ib6k]

people in the states, don't get the way most europeans percieve their teams. We are in love with our teams, we love the fact that a small team can beat a huge team (don't get me wrong, as things stadn today, it is impossible for a small club to win the Champions eague, but there is at least the pottential) and we are invested emotionally with the prospect of our team winning. That ESL idea was awfull, was going to kill football even faster than UEFA and was going to be the absolute end of romantisism in european Sports (basketball is already dead by the euroleague).

[@arbernumani3709]

Preach

[@A_O_Leary]

Ya like Barcelona soccer jersey is sacred, remember when they didn’t have a sponsor because its like an unofficial Catalonia flag/jersey.

[@brbopo]

After asking who is behind this, Bill's reaction is priceless at: 02:44

[@appl2597]

The thing I admire about Bill Simmons is he may joke around but he is always respectful.

[@benspt3636]

Odds of Bill making a wire reference with Logan and Marcus was like -220. Credit to him for holding off.

[@dollarize6412]

They tried to implement the American sports model in Europe and it failed because those fans live and breathe the sport, billionaires cannot get away with something like that.

[@retrojay86]

Slightly different fan culture

[@LoganNagol]

I mean sports in America is just as big as in Europe if not bigger. But that is not what it is about. its just a different sort of culture in regards to them

[@franklinlee2551]

@@retrojay86 I agree with this guy. was talking to my american friends, all they seem to care about is watching "the best teams" play vs "the best" teams year round.

[@Yautah]

@@LoganNagol its more entertainment than sports in the US. Even the draft. Its good spectacle, but it kills the incentive to have real academies and fostering young talent.

[@lancermaza6726]

@@LoganNagol soccer ultras/ hooligan is enough to tell you how big soccer is. I don’t think we have that kind of passion here, sadly.

[@balltalkdeep]

glad y'all covered this cuz I was mad curious on everything about it and what was going on

[@YaniG88]

Chris is easily the most informed American I've seen talk about this. He understands why there was such a blowback around the world when this just would be normal sports business in the US. Football was built by the working class within their industrial communities with a tradition and system that is sacrosanct. These American owners have treated these clubs like a franchise for too long, and now heads will finally roll.

[@VArsovski10]

Didn't hear it here first but perhaps the best down to Earth discussion, such a good piece guys GJ :)

[@MrAlchemist13]

Wow!!! Didn't expect that kind of football knowledge from Chris Ryan. Spot on Chris!!! Well done!!! My only disagreement is at 19:17 I have a different suggestion for Bill. The story to watch for the rest of the season is West Ham's attempt to finish in the Premier League's top 4 and thus, participate in next season's UCL, and of course, Jesse Lingard is playing like demigod right now. Let's go Lingardinho!!! Being a West Ham fan myself is just a pure coincidence, everybody who's watching our games these days gets excited, which is indeed rare. COME ON YOU IRONS!!!

[@nuddz]

Great stuff Chris well put

[@crissal4730]

One of the reasons I became so infatuated with the European Football Pyramid structure is that promotions/relegations exists were the underdog can reach the higher echelons of the top league based on merit. It’s like a AA baseball team from Scranton, Penn. getting promoted to AAA and then to the Major Leagues and play the Yankees, etc until they get relegated because it turns out they were way out of their league. This is what the English supporters were fighting against as the Essence of their football culture would have died only because these greedy owners wanted to impose a league system that works for them in the US.

[@hansdessureault7632]

The top league needs to be ringfenced. The overhead necessary to bring a quality product and support operations is too much for lower levels. It’s far too much volatility in income to reasonably plan and manage. In the rugby prem, they basically shuffle New Castle or London Irish back and forth. If you gave them the security blanket of steady income, they’d be able to invest with long term plans and could be good in three years. You could even enable a draft system from the lower tiers.

[@luthandoezrambaza579]

To be honest, US football fans are the best ones to explain this because this whole thing was trying to make European sport American. Turning it into the same model as the NBA and the NFL which these guys understand.

[@joshcorbett4787]

I love how American sports work, However I’d hate for the sport I love to be Americanised.

[@tashrif46]

7:31 The Champions League is the rebranding of the European Cup. Started in 1992/93, the same year the English First Division was re-branded to the Premier League.

[@anthonylagadon6609]

Great job guys.. yes I agree you really get it.

[@mylesjulius4742]

Hats off to Dortmund, Bayern and PSG who declined the offer 👏🏽

[@mylesjulius4742]

Even though PSG are arguably in it for the wrong reason 😂

[@Stephen246666]

Didn't all publicly owned teams decline it? My guess is that's more the reason than some type of nobility

[@mylesjulius4742]

@@Stephen246666 yah 100% the German clubs hands where tied with the 50+1 rule, but I would like to think watzke and kalle have integrity

[@kobischpiek8520]

@@mylesjulius4742 kalle was a worldclass football player himself so he respects the sport

[@hadyyanes1354]

The biggest point of contention is that these 12 elite teams would have never been able to get relegated or lose their spot in the Super League. At that point that kills the entire soul of European Football, no competitive merit. This situation seems to be over but UEFA and FIFA and the different TV broadcasters are just as bad for the sport so the fans should not stop the movement just yet.

[@franksound6922]

that s not the core of this problem. It s more an „ok, enough is enough“ moment. The greedy owners went out of bounds and disrespected a deeply rooted culture, by treating it like any other business

[@hadyyanes1354]

@@franksound6922 It’s been getting treated like any other business for 20-30 years. Sky sports and bein sports only stood up and were against it to protect their pockets. Don’t fool yourself. Same with uefa and fifa.

[@franksound6922]

@@hadyyanes1354 thats true. I probably could ve said it better. It just feels like „they went too far with this“ and a lot of the long brewing discomfort is coming out now. People are fed up by it

[@eicheldrei7408]

@@franksound6922 doesent help that soccer is also the most corrupt sport in the world, the amount of money earned through soccer is vast , for clubs also for countries and cities , jsut look at qatar and the massive fuck up there

[@franksound6922]

@@eicheldrei7408 true

[@Ashish-xm9ol]

For a Philky fan Chris Ryan sure does know his football

[@muhilan8540]

1:40 It's funny that Bill says that because the super league is very similar to American sports leagues imo, and they do allow 5 more teams to join each year so they can "beat up" on them

[@slimerre333]

feel like ryan hunn or musa shoulda been on this podcast

[@A_O_Leary]

I love that I needed Americans to explain this because my soccer knowledge is minimal and all the sports news reports are pundits, politicians and protesting fans.

[@eicheldrei7408]

your listening to americans talk about soccer maybe its not the best source xD

[@marcus-sky]

@@eicheldrei7408 he’s being ironic 😂😂🤣

[@anesu846]

Tbh I wanted to understand and actually weigh up what was going on but all I could find on the news was how disgusted people were. Not a lot of information was actually given

[@nf2203]

This only proves football (or as Americans call it - soccer) is the most popular sport in the world for a reason. The whole world united around this in a few days. European way is clearly the best and we don't need no super league.

[@nf2203]

@Ulises Leon Of course. That doesn't make my statement any less true though.

[@brbopo]

Heat reference at: 05:03

[@crysishero1212]

Whats the riot act ?

[@thepaddymix8514]

Bill doesn’t have a clue bless him but this Chris guy gets it

[@LordLoku17]

Leagues are already wrapped up? In Spanish league, 4 teams still can win it.

[@marlonblade007]

@Ulises Leon Sevilla fans UNITE!!

[@arbernumani3709]

I cant listen to this when they keep calling it soccer 😂

[@seanpidduck]

It's so hard to listen too 😂. Football is nearly as old as America the country lol!

[@stefenderson4470]

u know we used to call it 'soccer' way back in the day

[@muhilan8540]

@@stefenderson4470 exactly "soccer" is a term of British origin

[@2shmad2k10]

Tbf for all the Americanisms which don't work, the soccer one is a bit unfair 🤣. I'm irish and its soccer here as we have gaelic football as 'football'

[@KTF0]

Then don't

[@SubZeroDNB]

You best of meant tottenham by the "smallest subsections of north london"

[@riverofcustard5027]

It’s like a knife through my heart every time they say soccer

[@playerjdd]

Its the same way I feel when people call it "American Football"

[@TarikM]

@@playerjdd should be American Rugby

[@owenwilson8822]

Saaaaaacrrrrr....what the hell is saaaaacrrr!?

[@dj44640]

Just imagine Bulls - LA - GSW and the other top markets saying "screw you NBA we re out. We ll do our own league"

[@bix05001]

We say that. I'm still waiting for John Henry to approach the Yankees and say f* it let's just play each other 60 times a year.

[@xpetkax]

Nba is allready a "super league"

[@dj44640]

@@xpetkax that is exactly what the premier league said.....

[@TpolTime]

@@xpetkax 100%

[@munakay6914]

Lol the nba is exactly what they wanted the superleague to be what you say makes no sense

[@adamdolezalek9402]

Just on you point around 11:30 Yes domestic leagues would be bad but not because the big teams would be too good. They wouldn't have to care about PL for example because they'd know ESL will give them all the money anyway so they'd rest their players and only focused on ESL. Which means that teams like Leicester or West Ham might have bigger chances to win title but ultimately it just wouldn't feel right if the best teams didn't try. Also what would be the point of ending in top 4 and earning CL spot if the best teams wouldn't even play in it. It was just terrible idea from people that only care about their pockets and numbers on paper. As Man United fan, what's I've seen on twitter over the last three days was absolutely incredible. Fans of all clubs forgot about rivalries and bonded together against ESL which was trying to destroy everything we love about football. I went from potentionaly losing club I've loved for last 16 years to now having real chance of seeing Glazers leave. Anyway sorry for long post.

[@adamdolezalek9402]

And last thing on Glazers. I'd love to know opinion of Tampa Bay fans on them because on our side I've not seen many worse owners in any sport. Bought us in 2005 with money they didn't have, thrown their debt on the club, took money out of it at every opportunity and Joel Glazer was basically no-show since the aquisition. Guy doesn't even know how offside works.

[@thenutfyd]

M. City is doing to football what the russian Proku guy was trying to do to NBA: buy a champions league by outbidding everybody else. Superleague is a meh idea but football isn’t financially sustainable for many teams right now.

[@717jeezy]

I been making this " superleague " in fifa for years now 🤣🤣

[@NBAkingsfan10]

Why have Ian Wright if you arent going to use him for the biggest sports story in recent memory?!?

[@JM-xm3yy]

7:55 jesus christ this is so accurate

[@liamnuge428]

So what if the lakers, clipper, spurs, celtics, knicks and nets all said 'we're going to start every playoffs in the 2nd round no matter how bad we are. We'll still play the regular season although it won't mean anything... everyone else can join us based on their regular season record though!'

[@alessandroolivieri7]

European guy here. I really liked the idea of a Superleague. It was meant to be something like the NBA, and that's the best league out there in sports history. Right now football is like were basketball was in the '40s, with some regional leagues around the continent. The parallel with NCAA basketball/football is OK, but I will point out the biggest difference. How many games a top tier college plays against mediocre small colleges during the year? The conferences itself are unbalanced with some like Big10, ACC and others with very good competition and other that are very bad. You don't see Duke or Kentucky play almost half of their games against shitty teams. That's the biggest difference. If in the Premier league there are 8 teams that always arrive among top 6 of the league wouldn't be better for them to be in a higher competition? Wouldn't be better for all, the fans and the media, to rather watch every week a lot of big match instead of building hype around those matches that when lucky happens once every 2 weeks but it is just one single good match?? And in Champions League it is the same. It means to be the "nba" of soccer but it is not even close. Every team is guaranteed just 6 games, miss a couple of that for whatever reason and you are out (injury, covid, bad luck which is higher part in soccer than basketball) and you miss on a shit tons of money. Money that are redistributed to shitty teams too! And those money won't make teams like Leicester a contender for years to come (as it has happened), they are just enough to cover the balance of big teams and not enough to make a small market a competitive ones. So that's why a European Super League was needed in my opinion, but as you say broadcaster are ball deep on national leagues and that's why the media pour hate on the project.

[@catyhell724]

No you miss ehat football means what the heart of football . We dont need americanised football

[@alessandroolivieri7]

@@catyhell724 it will not americanised it will be just better.

[@catyhell724]

@@alessandroolivieri7 no it will be boring! It's time to bring back the laws no transfer money of players. Bring back youth build lets see if those super league clubs .... can survive with players want to play for them after having this dumb idea they obly win because they buy player time to change the laws back we let them run wild a little bit to much . Time connect and learn where they came from who build them from then scratch. This leauge is insult to the history of football and where it comes from

[@alessandroolivieri7]

@@catyhell724 right now is exactly like you say. There is no youth building or laws on money transferring. So the heart of football is no more anyway. And this is for about last 20 years now! On the other end making a close league you can put in salary cap rules, players transfer on contracts not for money (like in america) and you can see the best rising because of good management in both the youngs and the trade market. Teams could work long term in that way, right now they have to pour money over money just to make it through each year and gap between the bigger and smaller clubs is increasing more and more.

[@hansdessureault7632]

It would be really cool to see that communal feel, like Englishmen treat soccer, return to US sports. This fans for players instead of fans for your city is so wack. Ring fencing is necessary for the top leagues like NBA because of the massive necessary overhead and planning, but the D league could totally be expanded to the point where there’s 3 tiers and a group of 15 dudes that play out of a Buffalo community center can win their way into playing against Ignite. Only thing you can leave in England is not having a playoff. A winner takes all game/series makes for a better ending to a season and it’s not disputable.

[@crissal4730]

another analogy to what they wanted to do: alright nba teams, the lakers, Celtics, Brooklyn, knicks, they are making the playoffs every year regardless of their regular season record because they are the most popular, are worth the most.

[@franksound6922]

Thats simply ... Football is not Soccer ! Imagine a bunch of european, arabic and asian investors would rework the NFL and the Superbowl to their liking. What would happen in the USA ?

[@marcus-sky]

Imagine it as the NFL😂😂

[@luciusdomitiusaurelianus774]

See it’s called NFL and it stands for National Football League. Guess what NATION is meant by that? So asian investors would never change local league to their liking. U just compared whole sport to one league

[@franksound6922]

@@luciusdomitiusaurelianus774 i compared two sport cultures. European football is much bigger than sport and i believe that goes for US football too. For a lot of people their club is their purpose in life. Its everything.

[@thatothamae1394]

If they did the super league for only teams outside EU it might work.. but takes time

[@arvindwee4634]

FIFA the video game annually makes more money than the champions league. An yearly video game with almost the same mechanics generates more revenue than the top league of the biggest sport in the world which has more than 4 billion fans. NFL which has less than 1/5th of Champions League's fanbase and viewership generates 9 billion more. For the biggest sport in the world, its economic model is quite poor. I can see why Perez thought that the way things are now(because of COVID), the big clubs wouldn't survive.

[@athas12]

The thing is, the super-league is not a replacement for the domestic league, it is only a replacement for the UCL. The clubs did not do anything wrong for looking at their own interest. UEFA is a non-profit organization that makes billions in profits every year, and no one knows what happen to that money. UEFA president even admitted it this week when he said they have 2B in profit and they will share more of the profit with clubs. Like imagine if the NBA only shared 50% of the profit, and kept the rest for themselves, how would teams react? Football is a commodity, and the game been monetized since 2004. Those EPL fans that are angry about the idea, are the same fans that celebrate their teams for making big transfers using their billionaires deep pockets. They are all hypocrites. Football is a product for those who got the money.

[@aGuUU27]

City, Liverpool, United AND Chelsea AND Leicester

[@scottipippen6554]

Fans made this greedy owners fall. There was no trust in them in the first place. Now they will face pure hate, when fans return to the stadiums. This was one of the few moments this year, where i was proud to be a FC Bayern supporter. And i am glad, that we still have the 50+1 rule here in Germany. Hope we will never ever let investors run our clubs.. Props to Borussia Dortmund aswell. They also stayed true to their supporters.

[@sergegaash]

What about Bayern being a member of the basketball Euroleague? it happens to be as closed competition as ESL.

[@TpolTime]

I find it hilarious that FIFA and UEFA are making out that they aren’t elitist organisations who care more about money than football😂

[@theutopiaproject7434]

the league doesn't have relegation or a way of gaining entry through competitive means. if they had included that, it might have flown.

[@romeldelosa1005]

Yeah , Sky Sports is biased against Super League because they have a business interest in Premier League

[@stevenblackwood9968]

Gotta factor in that without EPL teams there is no value

[@patricija4179]

USA football- the only guy who uses his *foot* is the same guy many are debating if he is even a football player Sport that has players use their feet 100% of the time---> soccer Logic.

[@drewom9404]

And the best part is alot of those kickers are former Football players.

[@luciusdomitiusaurelianus774]

Yeah because when they made the sport called it soccer and Americans made other sport and called it football so to not get confused Soccer stuck there :D

[@Fro00ot0]

Soccer is a british word originally. blame yourselves for us calling it lol

[@patricija4179]

@@Fro00ot0 bro 95%+ of British words are used in America Also i'm not British

[@Fro00ot0]

@@patricija4179 well yes, that would be what happens when you speak the same language.

[@danielgalea8499]

To add more from my pov. This was not constructed over the Pandemic (though perhaps accelerated), it's perhaps a decade in the making but certainly at least 5 years. The Spanish are the main ones struggling fincially, id strongly argue due to their own financial mismanagement with the pandemic simply making a bad situation worse. The English clubs are greedy and cowardly, afraid of the huge competition in the league with owners who are looking to milk everything possible. Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Man utd face a yearly struggle and serious danger of failing to make the champions league and therefore losing out on money. I don't think anyone likes UEFA or FIFA. It's simply they and the fans have a bigger, mutual enemy on the doorstep. The super league is a horrible idea, for various reasons, but mostly because it was a closed off league where no matter how bad, teams don't get relegated, various stronger teams cannot get in and the novelty of the best playing the best every week will quickly lose its novelty. El Classico was not long ago, it was awful. We don't need to see this more frequently.

[@catyhell724]

So if those super leauges clubs say its to boring because they know they win. Maybe its time to bring back some old rules in football no player transfer for money^^ time to build up your own kids youth player so maybe those club learn again where they come from and have less dumb ideas. Let's see how big they are after not beeing allowed to buy but instand start to work as hey had in the past.

[@ElanoGey]

All american professional group sports are basically super leagues. And we as Europeans don't want your american formats near football.

[@sana3843]

I thought it was an interesting idea

[@ptkarl]

Soccer , ohhhhh .......... FOOTBALL!!!!!!!

[@nickwood1997]

The city in Chelsea😂😂😂😂 that’s London mate

[@incentiveincentive1899]

He said "City and Chelsea".

[@ZandeKongo]

It's football, FOOTBALL.

[@MrMburciaga]

This would've been so much better without Simmons

[@MrTheswayzeexpress]

They tried to make football American. A closed shop. It was so gross

[@cancon88]

Respect for them to capitulate. In England, we like tradition. Fkin ell if this went ahead the scousers would start blowing shit up can you imagjne. I understand the point but you could never get away with it here

[@therocklau]

One of the most irratating thing after the last world cup, is Bill claim he "got into football" and started blabbering non-sense, oh sorry, "soccer". Chris' understanding of the sport is a tad off but fine, Bill please stop.

[@owenwilson8822]

Bill awful-analogy Simmons

[@bobbyalistor]

Its not really super if you left out germans and france teams lol

[@Laurent_08]

"Outside of England, we know who is going to win every year" Lol...PSG isn't leading Ligue 1 right now, Juve isn't even close to lead the Serie A, and Real/Barca aren't leading Liga...

[@samlloyd5811]

this is one of the things i haven't seen many people mention - these clubs aren't "the best" lmao i'm a LFC fan and we have been shit this season... Arsenal... Tottenham... everything about it is a shambles

[@leemcqueen500]

PSG will end winning the league.

[@Laurent_08]

@@leemcqueen500 Maybe, maybe not...And they were very close to not win the last game. It would have make their chances to winning the title, very low.

[@IGoulden]

Its more about over say a five year period. Yes Dortmund may win the bundesliga but 4/5 times it’s Bayern

[@harisbouzida918]

the idea of an MLS team in the super league makes me laugh, those boys would get spanked every week

[@IGoulden]

They would get a cash injection of half a billion. You can buy quality players easily with that

[@TwoMorningPoops]

An MLS team with no Salary cap and huge cash infusion would be on par with Arsenal and Tottenham overnight. Imagine Beckham with all of his connections having the MLS chain taken off

[@owenwilson8822]

"Yeah, imagine a league with no relegation, owned by billionaire businessmen.....thats how bad The Super League is." Stick to netball and rounders, leave the real sports to us

[@TrueSoltani]

World War in football!

[@loeksnijders8845]

Bill I normally love youre podcasts. But this time i didnt, you guys were not on the point about the problem. If you did some research you now its more then just money. Its about Dreams, hopes and belief thats gone with this idea. The morals of the sport is gone, being rewarded when you win and punished when you lose. All gone with the Super League.

[@jacksonwilken5389]

CR heads unite

[@EamonnCagney]

The PremEEEER league lol

[@harryclark971]

Love Bill but this was horrendous ffs

[@anishlamsal5536]

Hell yeah been waiting for the BS podcast take on this shit show!!

[@raoulhery]

American sport is questionable. How come the last team doesnt get relegated. The closed league system is a scam.

[@willoconnor1483]

The abashed instrument compatibly compete because ticket splenomegaly imagine a a hysterical trip. late, half margaret

[@krasmazov009]

Americans would never be able to handle actual competition. Relagation stops tanking. I guarantee.

[@owenwilson8822]

This is as bad as watching the NFL coverage on Sky. Absolutely zero insight.