What's deadlier, a .25 or .30 cal airgun?

[@BakerAirguns]

Watch Part II of, "What's dealier, a .25 or .30 cal airgun" at this link... kzbin.info/www/bejne/pprSnnqFdquIn68

[@luislongoria6621]

A foreign fella SP Guns kind of sold me on the .25 before his channel went to pew tube heaven. Any tuned air rifle is going to have a modified pressure disc to make maximum power with fewer shots

[@luislongoria6621]

EU regs limit air rifles to 9 fpe or 9.7gr 4.5mm @760 fps while PCPs have so much untapped potential

[@FlacoGonzalez-u6h]

Now I’m not saying your tests were flawed, but in a video I watched, .30 went through ply wood at 150 yards whilst the .25 failed at 100 yards. I do not know anything about physiques but he used the same round, same gun, fully charged both rounds, & same configuration. That video made me go with .30!

[@ryangassxx]

Good experiment and sound science. The only thing I’ll point out though is that the test was performed uniformly at 20 yards. I believe that would favor the .25 caliber. We can leave aside the physics jargon,.. You’ve made all variables equal, except of course the properties of the pellets themselves. You would expect the pellet with the smaller profile cross section to experience less drag through the medium. Now, how about when you start to widen the distance? I’ve seen anecdotal tests of a Hatsan Blitz hitting line boards, back and forth between a .25 and a .30 caliber. The 30 definitively carries more energy past the 75 yard threshold. Was your decision to set the targets at 20 yards just arbitrary? Because I believe beyond a certain distance threshold you’ll actually see the results of the experiment flip between the two calibers.

[@UpNorthAirGunner]

Dude! We need to chat soon on this topic for big bore Airguns. I just dropped that Doe last weekend with the .50 cal Texan short carbine at around 500 FPE. At 50 yards the slug bedded on the backside of the hide. It was perfectly broadside so I was like WTF! I expected to blow right through that Doe. At the same 500 FPE power level, I get .457 slugs penciling through deer almost every single time. So your test has a lot of application for big bore Airguns on larger game. With Deer they rarely just fold up and expire on the spot so having a full pass through on a double lung shot is preferable to create a fully open wound cavity for better blood trails not to mention a deer can survive on a single lung. Contrary to some of the comments on this post about a full energy dump being ideal. With deer, it is not. Keep up the Airgun geekery brother!

[@BakerAirguns]

Absolutely, man! Clearly this topic needs further investigation and explanation. I would love to talk with you about it. -Donnie

[@scottmichael3745]

Although I respect your opinion, I do disagree. The more energy transferred, the more damage done. That IS physics. But I Absolutely see what you're saying about faster bleed out with the passthrough. Shot placement is of course critical, but if slightly off center, I'd prefer damage to passthrough. You could hit em in the ass with a passthrough and have them run off, but with full energy dump, it may have had a broken leg or spine and not able to run off. But the military has done more research on this subject than Anyone on the planet. Might want to read some of their thoughts on the subject. (Spoiler, they believe in energy transfer).

[@UpNorthAirGunner]

@@scottmichael3745 Well first off you’re totally wrong in the fact the deer isn’t expiring from bleeding out of your shot selection was correct. Your shutting down the respiratory system not the circulatory system with a double lung shot. What I’m saying is you get a better blood trail for tracking and NOT that the animal is expiring from loss of blood. Dispatching from blood loss can actually take a long time. I’ve tracked Deer for hundreds of yards with blood everywhere to have it all of a sudden just stop. Often from the single hole becoming clogged most likely from tissue. It happens and every seasoned hunter has experienced it. The amount of energy we get with big bore Airguns is in the realm of handgun firearm cartridges not high energy projectiles like you mention the military doing studies on which I’m assuming you’re referencing studies done on 5.56 and 7.62 ammo. Those projectiles are producing energy in the magnitude of thousands of foot pounds of energy, not hundreds like we see with Airguns. I’ve dispatched quite a few deer with big bore Airguns and will tell you it’s much more like archery, not firearms. Go watch handgun shootout footage on KZbin with handguns. People aren’t getting blown off their feet when getting hit with 9mm or 45 ACP rounds. Sometimes if they are hopped up enough on adrenaline (or drugs), they just keep coming. Shot placement is crucial but dumping 500 FPE into a 200 pound animal doesn’t do as much as you think it would. Go watch some of my videos where I dump 600 FPE hollow points into the chest of a large Doe and they just look around like what just but me. It’s different man. Trust me

[@mikenick4571]

So you trading that .50 cal in for a .257? Probably not because you want the biggest hole that passes through.

[@scottmichael3745]

Ok, now that Does make sense to me! You can't breath, you can't run. Heart pumping or not.

[@100PCMMCW]

I've been waiting for you and Baker Airguns to make a return. Your content is always valuable to me, AND thoroughly well researched, documented and presented. Thank you. Subscribed, finally.

[@BakerAirguns]

Thank you very much! Welcome to the channel. -Donnie

[@sgtmudflaps7942]

I have to tell you, i am new to the Air rifle world but I have to say, watched the whole thing. You sir, are a very charismatic individual. thank you for video and making my choice harder when buying my first air rifle.

[@plumberroy]

I understand you logic, but you test show that the 30 caliber sheds energy quicker in the target. When hunting that equals quicker kills

[@BakerAirguns]

Penetration is the foremost function of a projectile. When dealing with low energy airguns (compared to high energy firearms), penetration is often questionable. If it doesn't go in, or go in far enough, energy transfer is a moot point. Even the biggest, baddest airguns made are barely firearm handgun powerful. How do handguns kill? They poke holes so you bleed, even with modern hollowpoints. Airguns are no different, and less powerful. -Donnie

[@timtullio1210]

@@BakerAirguns Penetration is not the foremost function. It's dumping all the energy into the animal and not just punching hole through. If you have, and can dump all the ft/lbs of energy into animal and not through it, you're ahead of the game. That's knock down power, that's lights out power. I have an .25 Edgun, two .30's and two 357's pellet/slug PCP's. Trust me, .25's don't hit and kill nearly as fast as the larger calibers. Thirty cals blow squirrels clean out of the tree. Thirty's kill groundhogs, .25's are sketchy without a perfect hit.

[@scottmichael3745]

@@timtullio1210 Yeah man I just GOTTA agree with you. Really liked the video, but I believe his "physics" are incorrect. Energy dump is EVERYTHING! I killed LOTS of birds as a kid with a pump 177 and very rarely did it ever make a hole. Hollow points are designed Specifically to increase energy transfer. And if the projectile exits the target, well that's waisted energy...

[@100PCMMCW]

@@timtullio1210 you've made a very good point but with respect, I feel like the point of this video was not about the question of; Is penetration more important than energy dump? I felt it was very much about introducing to less experienced air gun shooters, the basic first principals of ballistics as they pertain to Air Guns (especially PCP's). As a Break Barrel gunner, it helped me visualise a couple of really important scenarios: 1. The crossover of efficacy of the two bore sizes' projectile at the same FPE at the muzzle for both penetration and terminal energy. EG - If I have less penetration, my effective range is reduced, which could affect target selection (size, type and POA/POI). Or, what's my DOPE going to be? How would that affect my working range, firing positions or both? Donnie's theory and explanations of the variables would help almost any lay person to answer those questions themselves - whether that be to choose a new platform or, make adjustments in the field quickly with whichever platform they're using. Which is fantastic. 2. If I was considering a new platform, do I need .30 cal, or would .25 Cal suit my needs better? And from that perspective, I felt Donnie's testing methodology and explanations spoke to both of those scenarios really well as a layperson to PCP world. The other great outcome of Donnie explaining things the way he has, is that less experienced PCP gunners can apply all of this to their own decision making in the field. The more folks that have a good understanding of Ballistics as a subject, the less likely it is they'll make unfortunate choices, and the higher the likelihood of humane kills. That's what I took from the video anyway. If that was Donnie's intention for this video, do you feel he nailed it? What are your thoughts from that point of view? Cheers

[@dangerous8333]

@@100PCMMCW He called the 25 more deadlier. I think that's the discrepancy people are having.

[@donpeer4477]

Great video, Donny! So many variables are involved in determining "deadliness" that this subject will never be settled. It's the same as the firearm discussion about "knock-down" power. In the end, for me, a more important question is "What is the minimum" for a quarry?

[@BakerAirguns]

Thank you very much! That's a good way to look at it. -Donnie

[@menelik23dedon]

I agree no pun intended but actual firearms might be “over kill”

[@RealTechZen]

Rather than the "minimum" and assuming the shot will be perfect, wouldn't it be better to use what has the surest effect? If your "minimum" device is slightly off target, there will be pointless suffering. You might be a sportsman,shooting for your entertainment, but you're no hunter.

[@hernandovillamarinbuenaven7476]

​@@RealTechZen: 100% agreed!.

[@survivalcampman]

All makes perfect sense, Explaining it in a way for everyone to understand is difficult, good job explaining!

[@MrMann703]

Great video, i like that you got all nerdy on this subject. I've always had either .177 or .22 airguns, i just ordered the Hatsan Sortie Tact .25, a pistol with a folding stock for my backpack looking forward to testing it out, i dont have ballistic gel (i may make some) but I'll definitely be running some shots through the chrony and targetting different types of mediums to see what happens. Take care and thanks for the video

[@lewistavares3193]

Who shoots 2 calibers at the same energy though? 25 cal is capable of 100ft lb and the 30 cal much more. 60gr 30 cal at 950fps vs 50gr 25 cal at 950fps the 30 cal is going to perform better right? Slugs are designed to expand and stop with the exception of bull nose or solid nose slugs so very cool break down of what you've shown but I can't see anyone going up to a 35 cal to shoot it at 600fps to go hunting. FPE comparison is great for what you're showing though nice work for giving the up side and down side in both options.

[@John--cu2yu]

Tbh their is the rule of thumb to 'keeping everything the same except one thing' when conducting experiments

[@jeffchin1197]

🤣buy one of ea🥳

[@lewistavares3193]

@@jeffchin1197 or have 1 that shoots all 3 progressively harder hitting with each caliber on 1 tune?

[@thomasrooney8533]

This video actually made me feel better about getting a 25 caliber

[@Ragnarok20854]

Don't take this seriously.

[@Tommy_Irish]

It's NOT just about penetration. It's also about wound cavity. The 30 caliber wins as far as total destruction. That's the bet to go with.

[@jrwill58]

EXACTLY! The difference in depth is NOT significant! If the 25 kills a hog, Im betting the 30 would do it better due to a bigger hole and a heavier pellet. He nerded his way into nonsense.

[@Tommy_Irish]

@@jrwill58 Absolutely!

[@williamh6547]

Basically because of the size difference, there is more grab area upon arrival of the projectile, thus quickly arresting it's penetration distance, so that is easily understood. But I think that the .30 cal would inflict more cavitational damage upon entry, thus possibly inflicting more damage. Good vid 👍👍

[@BakerAirguns]

Thank you! I address this very thing in Part II of this experimentation. It's on our page if you'd like to see. -Donnie

[@gtdcov]

What about cavitation?

[@neiledwards8931]

Like your information ; i believe 30gr infact is acting like a brake on impact on the jelly from its width & weight . Cheers .nice video.

[@brownjamie7008]

When would you turn the 30 cal down to equal FPE? Obviously if the bigger diameter hims a target with equal energy in won't go in as far. What's the point of this?

[@sel7245]

If you JUST take the frontal area of pellets. .177 = 15,9 mm2 .22 = 23,75 mm2 .25 = 31,65 mm2 .30 = 45,6 mm2 A 40 J .177 has. 40 :15,9 = 2,52 J/ mm2... To get 2,52 J / mm2 for the other cal. you need.. .22 : 2,52 x 23,75 = 59,85 J or 44 ftp .25 : 2,52 x 31,65 = 79,76 J or 59 ftp .30 : 2,52 x 45,6o = 114,9 J or 86 ttp

[@larrycoleman2225]

Lot's can be said about this topic and how one wishes to use this information, but as a general rule when dispatching an animal you typically want to transfer the complete amount energy of the projectile to the target. Even more important than that, is first hitting the target in the best location for the cleanest kill. This will ensure the most successful result. If a projectile passes through the target precious energy has been wasted. Too many variables to talk about depending on many issues but that is a good start. Enjoyed seeing your results and after testing similar things with handguns I was not surprised with your results. A .22 rimfire will travel through more 2X4's than .a .357Mag, a 45ACP, and a 44Mag but I would have a different choice than a .22 rimfire for a personal protection weapon, if available. Good stuff to ponder.

[@davidpaylor5666]

I forget who said it but it is a universal truth: a .177 to the head is way more likely to kill than a .457 to the foot. It's all about shot placement. Good post. Take it easy.

[@larrycoleman2225]

@@davidpaylor5666 exactly. That would be one unbelievable sore foot though. LOL

[@davidpaylor5666]

@@larrycoleman2225 Yep. You might WISH you were dead with that much lead in what remains of your ankle but won't kill you.

[@larrycoleman2225]

@@davidpaylor5666 Yeah, I agree, LOL. Might need a tourniquet to slow the red ooze. ;)

[@250tango5]

@@davidpaylor5666 with that said I have never seen an eighteen inch brain either.... lol just saying

[@mattd7770]

great video. What about using wound channel width as a measurement?

[@ManMak6]

I don’t care if it’s 25 or 30 I’m just here to watch you’re videos! Love the content!

[@BakerAirguns]

Thank you very much! -Donnie

[@MattStarkFishing]

I’d love to see the results at 40+ yards and see if the results are different. It seems the drag coefficient could be a greater factor at that distance

[@loveamericanstyle9287]

Thts wht i was thinking about also,how would greater distances effect the performance,also the .25 has less surface so less drag to impede velocity, there's also the design n weight of the pellet

[@robertwhitehead9270]

Link?

[@martdod]

Would have loved to see this done at 50 or 100 yards. Nice video thank you.

[@airshootist]

No need for the gel tests at all, really. It's very simple: Higher FPE = more deadly. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate the efforts here. But it isn't about penetration - it's about energy dump. And the .30 is heavier and dumps more energy on your target. Period.

[@BakerAirguns]

The fpe for the test was equal. And if a pellet doesn't go into the target...it will not kill it. Deadliness starts with penetration. -Donnie

[@airshootist]

@@BakerAirguns I skipped all the talking up front so I missed that part! SCIENCE! Generally, .30 is going to be hitting with more fpe than .25 so a bit of a misleading title, there, Mr.! Haha cheers and have a good weekend!

[@davidpaylor5666]

It's also about ballistics and drag: if your .30 sheds 50% of it's energy between the muzzle and the target but your .25 only loses 25% then you are getting more energy into your target with the .25.

[@BakerAirguns]

@@airshootist Thanks man! You too! -Donnie

[@airshootist]

@@davidpaylor5666 Great point! This is why for most my small game pesting, I choose .22 for the highest BCs so I can reach out real far if needed. Still wanna wallop some squirrels and chipmunks with .30. Maybe down the road I'll get a .30 kit for the Maverick and post some videos about it and get banned. 👍

[@johnndavis7647]

Pretty nerdy. For sure. Sectional density of projectile is what matters givern equal velocity. Thanks for the video.

[@codered7453]

Excellent explanation and rudimentary insight into projectile physics. You proved valid points for both calibers and showed that all other things being equal, that with a light projectile of identical momentum and lower drag will out-penetrate a more massive projectile of higher drag with less velocity -ie- speed kills. Referring to WW1 and WW2 tank armor penetration studies conducted by the US Army will validate your conclusions as well. Roy Weatherby was really into something.... But for all you ladies and gentlemen out there still trying to quantify "killing power" please remember that a .25 bullet might expand, but a .30 will never get any smaller. Great video and I hope to see more like it. Take care.

[@BakerAirguns]

Thank you very much! -Donnie

[@guardsmanom134]

I think folks are missing forms and functions of an airgun vs. a firearm in most if their understanding of what you are trying to say in a short video. Airguns kill primarily through hemorrhage and exanguination than through energy transfer alone. Furthermore, you have to understand aerodynamic forces at play, even over 20 yds, before talking Airguns and thinking firearms ballistics. Utilizing slugs negates alot of the tertiary issues, but it's different lead, speeds, and bc's. Using pellets, as in the video, exacerbates the misunderstanding, as folks miss the fact of the aerodynamic forces at play. These reduce the energy on target and therfore terminal performance (energy dump which equates to temporary cavity[hemorrhage] and penetration[anxsaguination]). The biggest revolution in Airgun Technology, has been in projectiles. What you have here is a baseline for all other airgun types and calibers. Airguns have come a long way from the pump-daisy repeater. Not all Airguns are created equally. As for those who wonder why the .25 would be more lethal, greater penetration outweighs energy dump at lower velocity. Anxsaguination is key to a quicker kill, when shock cannot shut down nervous flight responses in the brain. When talking headshots, the only "ethical headshot" is one that entirely severs the spinal connection, or damages the brain beyond functionality. In these respects, the .25 wins again, as penetration is the key to entirely severing the CNSI tract. In airguns, penetration is just as, if not more so, important to an ethical hunt.

[@ALLTHINGSAIRGUN]

This was probably the most correct and coherent comment on this video. I wish I would have included a similar explanation in this video, as this point is clearly lost on most posters. I thank you for this! -Donnie

[@safakaswedishairgunforum-n1490]

Thanks for another great video Donnie. my humble opinion here is that when comparing two different calibers one should take in consideration weight and speed and all those factors contributing to get the max performance and devastation out of each caliber. in that case a bigger caliber with a proper expansion is a winner, for hunting purposes every day of the week 👍🔫🇸🇪

[@Cisco1322]

Would they same result come out in a 25 cal vs 30 cal in a break barrel gas pistol? That would be nice to see🙏

[@robertopaulylaspiur8405]

We’ll carried test…congrats!!! Just wondering about Impact vs Penetration ???

[@MrGaditana]

Great to watch ! Thanks

[@makerofmanythings8447]

My Hatsan hercules bully in 25cal is an AWESOME pcp it lays down 80 f-lbs with a Diablo 25gr. @ 1200 fps. Thats with a slight tune, just turning a screw a bit. The 25cal Hatsan bully is no joke.

[@NT4XT]

I love the nerdy aspects of theoretical analysis. Combined, with actual, scientifically measured testing. 👍 Right On.

[@Cisco1322]

You did an amazing job demonstrating the power and physics of it all. Something that i myself was curious about and wanted to know. With that said I’m buying a 25 cal now 😁🤙

[@BrandonSmith-sq9wg]

I have no formal education in physics beyond high school. However, I have to know how and why things work in my many hobbies. Archery, billards, airguns, and most recently darts and slingshots all involve a lot of physics. I research and study until I understand what is going on. My wife is a math and science teacher. She often says " it's called applied physics (or math) . Yep, I a nerd. Anyway, I need more videos like this. Educational. Short. Direct. A voice that scares the living shit out of me! Lol! That's not saying I don't absolutely enjoy when you cut loose on videos ( that Randy Savage thing) made me spray bourbon on my phone! You folks have a good thing going. Keep up the good work. I really enjoy this channel.

[@BakerAirguns]

LOLOL at the voice thing. That's really cool that you study the world. I applaud you, sir! -Donnie

[@Sonofaguninmo]

How does the long range ballistic coeficient differences between the two calibers effect accuracy and penetration?

[@mtnviewtow88]

your not going to make us angry your doing a fine job letting us know what is what :)

[@nascontreras5422]

So which round would be better for hunting ? .25 caliber or .30 cal ? Or maybe a .35. Cal ? @baker airguns

[@ComicBookCollectibles]

Thanks for taking the time to create this video and demonstrate the differences between the two calibers. However, if you would take a moment to answer just one quick question, I'd be obliged. What brand and model airgun would you describe as being the most lethal? Thank you.

[@TheMNBlackBear]

If you're rich, both are lots of fun and you can own whatever you like and put whatever you like to your purpose. That being said, I am careful what I buy, and I was shopping for info on this very subject and did find this video. I've got a Hatsan Mod 125 .17 cal. can't live without an excellent gas-piston break barrel. Next, my .22 cal. Benjamin Marauder pistol is loads of fun. So, this was a question of which heavier caliber to get, .25 or .30? Well, it might be both. But I'm getting the .25 regardless, based only on what I saw here. Thinking of getting the Hatsan Galatian Tact. Because Tactical is practical.

[@Sonofaguninmo]

Does the wound channel in ballistic gel indicate one caliber is better over another?

[@СергейАлександрович-х3ф1н]

The test is interesting. But it would be even more useful if the muzzle velocity of these bullets were the same, because the rifle's capabilities allow it. And it is also very interesting to conduct a test for a longer distance. I think such a test would be more practical, for example, for hunters. Thank you for the work you've done.

[@surreallife777]

Excellent video. I saw similar videos online but I still wasn’t 100% convinced. Thanks one test I would like to see is the exact same guns shot at different distances and at what point do they lose penetration or I guess it’s called inertia. I wasn’t good with math, but I’m an economics freak I read it almost every day. I believe in progressive demand-side economics which completely different than supply-side economics. I don’t know why I shifted from firearms to economics.😊

[@georgehunter4023]

There is still more to this that should be factored in. Show the wound channel and upset between them and I believe it show show a much different picture. Another thing this does show is that the .30 caliber transfers it's energy into the target much more rapidly causing much higher shock. These air guns in either caliber are used for small game that do not have a 13" or 18" cross section so a projectile with the capability to transfer its energy much faster has the advantage. I have seen this argument in archery just the same and the heavier projectile always won. There is also the difficulty in testing this in hunting handguns. There had to be a different test and physics equation created because the equations used for rifle cartridges made large bore handgun cartridges and even many large bore rifle cartridges look absolutely harmless. They came up with something called the K.O factor. Love the video. I'm now a subscriber.

[@Matzah1982]

I have a Hatsan 135 QE vortex .25 caliber break barrel air rifle that I shoot H&N 22 grain hornet pellets from and I did a penetration test video that I posted on my channel shooting a hornet pellet from 20 feet away at 3 back to back plastic gallon water jugs and the hornet deposited so much energy into the first jug as they tend to do within the first 5 inches of penetration as is evidenced by it partially ripping the back of the first jug when exiting and it poked a hole in the other side of the second jug but didn’t quite exit it. Had I been shooting a 29 grain domed pellet with the 29 or 30 foot pounds of energy my rifle is putting out at the muzzle it probably would have entered the third jug but not deposited as much energy into the first jug and thus not done as much damage. In a similar test with the Diana 350 magnum .22 I used to have shooting a JSB 18.13 grain domed pellet with about 24 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle it would penetrate slightly deeper poking the third jug but not piercing it but not depositing as much energy or damaging the first jug as much. Even with 5 less foot pounds of energy the domed pellet held onto it’s energy slightly further. Yet when shooting an unopened gallon Hawaiian Punch container the Diana 350 magnum couldn’t shoot the domed pellet through it but my Hatsan could shoot the hornet through it because it’s only about 5 inches of liquid to get through as well as the 2 thick layers of plastic and the hornets dump most of their energy within the first 5 inches so the greater energy from my rifle could get the hornet through that 5 inches. This test comparison on this video should be done with the .25 caliber and .30 caliber versions of my rifle using domed pellets

[@Michael-sf9yg]

A truly fair comparison wouldn't be based on equivalent FPE, but rather through matching VELOCITY. Eliminating the squared factor would allow for direct comparison of momentum/drag coefficient for a more accurate assessment of penetration at range between calibers

[@ALLTHINGSAIRGUN]

Everything you just said is wrong. -Donnie

[@jh9501]

For a lethality test, cavitation must also be measured. How does that compare between the two?

[@andyclark5257]

Question if u take a 25 gran projectile an put it in a 50 cal co2 hand gun would it be over kill

[@jspool]

As someone who owns a DeltWolf I would like to see this test with both rounds at the same fps. I would probably set the rifle to shoot either at 950fps. The you would see a substantial difference.

[@hernandovillamarinbuenaven7476]

Great video Donnie!; Among so many variables, very interesting approach considering physics / sec. density / kinetic energy / momentum. I'd also keep in mind, air is also a 'fluid' that exerts drag in a given projectile. All of the documented info truly appreciated!!. I feel lucky I found your YT channel, ergo, I gladly subbed.. 😌🇺🇸🙏

[@descargaelbano]

Great video, although that 6/10th of an inch threw me off. Most would say 9/16 or 5/8. 😅

[@jonanderson8975]

I love how you break it down Barney style. My wife can figure it out 😂

[@billkelly3310]

The cross sectional friction coefficient of a projectile is increased as diameter increases thus less penetration as caliber increases

[@craigcook1571]

Here in Texas, we can now hunt deer with air guns, but it has to be .30cal or larger. I have no doubt though a good high powered .25cal would work well enough providing you could get good shot placement at reasonable ranges

[@HenryEberhardt-z3r]

Were they both Hatsan Break Barrel Air Rifles ?

[@fl3bcheekysquirrel786]

Awesome video!!!! Lethality is determined by how much kinetic energy is delivered on target, pass through's leave little to no damage (wound channel collapses in on itself the entire length, this is where smaller cross section projectiles with hollowed out cross sections excel, they leave a gaping wound channel that does not collapse on itself, and blood loss and trauma set in) where as a hit and stay in target leave's said wound channel open where the projectile is embedded which translates to more blood loss, and more trauma on soft targets. Head shots are all about penetration, just like body armor is defeated by higher velocities, with smaller cross sections at POI. H&N 31.1gr Grizzlies are ideal for head shots, they have a small cross section starred hollow point, made with hardened lead.

[@diggernash1]

Wouldn't you tune both for accuracy? It seems their speeds would be much closer than 130 fps; or did I hear the velocities wrong?

[@caseyjohnson8849]

On a pass through does the target absorb all energy generated as would the contained projectile? And I’d any value added for hydraulic shock to to the living tissue?

[@mickdabz]

Hydrostatic shock..

[@TimSwan]

Which caliber produced the largest wound cavity in your experiment? My first guess would be the .30 caliber.

[@BakerAirguns]

There is no appreciable difference in wound track or wound cavity. -Donnie

[@CadillacDriver]

@@BakerAirguns that is only because the gel cavities shrink. Using a medium that doesn't do so, will show the 30 cal makes a larger channel.

[@BakerAirguns]

@@CadillacDriver That is incorrect. See Part II of this experiment on our KZbin page. -Donnie

[@CadillacDriver]

@@BakerAirguns which part? The meat? It also shrinks.

[@BakerAirguns]

@@CadillacDriver Think about what you're saying. -Donnie

[@enzoberetta982]

Hi from italy here , nice video , i have a question, why an airgun domed pellet like jsb does penetrate further then a bullet ? I have seen a lost of video of penetratiin test of 22lr solid bullet so no expansìon 29 or 36 or 40 grain fired from pocket pistola at 70 - 80 fpe and it does penetrare only 12 - 13 inches in 10% ballistic gel , it is only .22 so lead area to overcome the gel block , in tour video a .25 and 30 penetrate 18 inches . Im curiius why this happen . It seems that bullet has more drag then pellet ?Sorry for my english 😁

[@briangray6372]

I can't resist, You used less than (). I am wonder 20 yrds is close if pellets are anything like my cross bow bolts the longer the bolt flys the harder it seems to hit. If I shoot the 30 yrd taget at the range I am fine but the longer shots go deeperin the 40 yrs and right thru the 60 yrd targets ( they were all new and the same build).

[@BakerAirguns]

You are correct. That was a boner of a typo, but the video was complete by the time I noticed. My apologies for that. As far as your bolts go, your assessment is incorrect. They have the most energy they'll ever have the moment they leave the launcher. They only slow down and lose energy from that point. -Donnie

[@briangray6372]

@@BakerAirguns That is what would make sense But but the bolts from my Ravin R9 go deeper ithen thru each target the further I am from it,

[@BakerAirguns]

@@briangray6372 I assure you, what I said is correct. There is some other explanation for the deeper penetration. They absolutely DO NOT gain energy the farther they go. -Donnie

[@250tango5]

@@BakerAirguns with arrows there is a flex and stabilization period for the spine of the shaft and then a increase of speed when the energy is not being taken by the stabilization process and the shaft straightens out, really prevalent in long bows.... its a paradox....

[@airpowered2235]

@@250tango5 I'm going to have to say No one that one. Your not going to gain velocity of an arrow as it goes down range unless you have some sort of propulsion in the arrow like a missile.

[@kurtfirestone2761]

Would love to see the same comparison for 177 and 22

[@michaelb.42112]

Good suggestion !!! That's always the magic question for most of us out here in KZbin land.

[@garrysansoucie]

Can you imagine a 70 ft/lb .177? That would be something

[@neilstaffer7648]

@@garrysansoucie only allowed .177 here in Cyprus, believe me 35 ft/lb is crazy enough. Zeroed at 40m anything from 30 to 70 metres is pretty much cross hairs on target is where you hit POA = POI

[@MWS67]

@@garrysansoucie .177 @ 70 FPE? That would be a 15 grain NSA slug at 1450 fps. Hmmm...

[@danieldyck2576]

Aea varmint pcp will do 60fpe in .177

[@lelonbond6682]

Would the 25 be about the same as a 22long or a 22short?

[@KevinWood44]

Few things.... The greater than sign faces the other way. Less than LEFT (both start with with S's. Gotta thank my 6th grade math teacher for that trick, thanks Mrs Cabrara) Penetration has little to do with "deadly" I'd rather get shot and have the bullet pencil thru than get hit with a hollow point slug with more fpe that explode my organs and kills me immediately. Wood has knots. Shooting through wood as a test is never going to give you repeatable results. Aside from that, I loved the video. I was actually suprised by the results. Regardless if I disagree with the "deadly" aspect

[@murphystreeter]

Great video.....age old battle of calibers.....6.5 vs 7.62 Gimme my Swede!!! Just ordered a sidewinder 25. Wind drift is also something to consider.

[@joey0077d]

Bigger cavity wound from .30 where . 25 goes in with a smaller cavity wound. But all around great info. Thanks

[@GR-cf4qh]

The other thing to take into consideration is efficiency. When someone is debating .25 vs .30 they’re primarily mulling over pellet cost, shot count, kinetic energy and trajectory. On pellet cost and trajectory the .25 is the obvious winner, but generally a .30 is going to produce more energy given the same pressures and barrel length. Just comparing springers, with the same springs and swept volume the kinetic energy tends to increase with the caliber. So if two PCPs are both tuned to a similar energy level it’s likely the .30 will use less air and get more shots per fill.

[@foam27]

The .25 got 30 more shots for the same FPE.

[@KiJenProductions]

Awesome video! I want to do the same thing, comparing the .25 and .30 cal AEA HP SS pistols into some homemade ballistic gel. The .25 is around 35fpe and the .30 (non-plus version) is about 40fpe.

[@BakerAirguns]

Great idea! -Donnie

[@stephenrosenthal5252]

But both would shine in different areas. In gel we see the .25 penetrates better. But shoot a gallon of water and see which has a bigger splash impact on the bottle. Shoot into a t-bone and see which shoots fragments of lead in the meat more. The gel shows very little

[@MWS67]

Your video makes me feel better about my .25 Hatsan Bully which has about the same FPE as you are showing. This shows me that the .25 is not a wimpy round and will give good penetration. The .30 cal Bully has 40 FPE more than the .25 so it would hit harder. Maybe try the same test with FPE on both at full power.

[@BakerAirguns]

Right on! I'll see what I can do. -Donnie

[@wc7516]

That was interesting. Thanks for doing this.

[@gladegoodrich2297]

Some of 25s are pushing 1000 fps while most of the 30s are only in the 500s. Shooting 75 yards the 25 will have a lot less drop therefore more accurate?

[@simplicityrm]

Very good test with interesting results for sure. Though I can't claim this for pellet rifles but normal rifle calibers. When you have two rounds/caliber with the same energy when it comes to game the wider bullet makes the faster recovery due to the wider wound channel.

[@SmithAerosports1]

Another interesting comparison would be at a longer range, where the BC of projectiles make a big difference.

[@mileshodge3477]

So, what guns did you use or did I miss it? Were they all PCP, spring piston or gas piston? Which pellets? Because different grains and material make a difference.

[@ALLTHINGSAIRGUN]

Every last bit of that information is in the video. Did you not watch it? -Donnie

[@mileshodge3477]

​@ALLTHINGSAIRGUN thats why I asked did I miss it. Did you mention the make and models of each gun or just general information? I even looked at the article and wasn't there and wasn't about to watch this long arrogant video all over again, but forget it. Got what I needed long ago.

[@ALLTHINGSAIRGUN]

@@mileshodge3477 Apparently not....and that is why you fail.

[@themullystacheshow3610]

Am I misunderstanding this? It looks like the video shows the .25 stopping in the gel but the data shows it going through and vice versa for the .30?

[@BakerAirguns]

Yes. You are misunderstanding this. Perhaps watch it again? -Donnie

[@slayerarrow]

Good stuff but penetration after 12" does not matter much on most animals . How thick is a squirrel? Rabbit? 12" is more than enough

[@tonyhowell5283]

very educational thanks in my experience 70FPE is as high i can currently get my 25 cal wildcat, but my impact does 105FPE without try hard- would like to see your analysis is at 105FPE?

[@Xtreme_Airgun_Slugs]

My Bulldog with Pitbull power spring puts out about 3 times the power (foot pounds/kinetic energy) as a .25 handgun firearm. It's about 215 ft/lbs which is about 100 ft/lbs short of a 9mm Luger round

[@heathhalfhill6401]

So...in theory...a .22 cal 33.95 grain pellet producing 70 FPE should out penetrant a .25 cal also at 70 FPE? Right? Less surface resistance? Would love to see that test as well. Would try it my self but I can not obtain that grain pellet in that caliber at the moment, and I don't have a .22 cal PCP that makes that much power.

[@EarthSurferUSA]

Somebody on YT who actually knows some math! Wonderful. We really can't figure much out with out it. I can now enjoy an intelligent review for a change.

[@honorb4glory606]

I shoot 28 grain, hollowpoint, .25 caliber airgun slugs out of an old firearm, chambered in an obsolete caliber. I have no chronograph or ballistics gel, but they fragment in mid air, if I don't fill the cavity with wax, and they expand to .50 caliber in water. Any idea how fast they're moving? I estimate 1400 feet per second, but that's just a guess, really.

[@blaydenzahner9379]

I would assume most people are shooting birds and squirrels and maybe raccoon size animals. And when you're getting a full pass through every time penetration doesn't matter anymore. It's the wound channel which the wound channel of the 25 would be bigger. So it would be more damage

[@jamesfrye5387]

I guess I should have watched this video first, lol. Alright man, I'm convinced. I'll get a .25, thanks :)

[@preyingmathis2517]

This video is a lie or is meant to be satirical.

[@barryholmes6993]

Good test mate 👍 but it makes me wonder even if the .30 doesn’t penetrate as far would it not cause more damage with the extra diameter with a bigger wound channel and be more concussive. Just a thought might be a good video to try out.

[@whiterock1865]

Yes! He only tested penetration, no real analysis of wound channel size etc.

[@kendallh9106]

Hmm...very interesting data. It most certainly makes since when comparing the two calibers at the same ft/lbs of energy. However, my 30 caliber FX Maverick (with mods) is putting out ~110 ft/lbs with FX hybrid slugs 44.5 gn at 1053 ft/s (not an ideal speed for those slugs) and ~116 ft/lbs with NSA 49.5 gn at 1026 ft/s. I also have the option of slowing this down by using heavier slugs while upping the ft/lbs of energy and possibly increasing the accuracy. My point being that if my 30 caliber couldn't do better than 70 ft/lbs, I would have never bought it. In fact, Matt Dubber has shown that the FX Impact in 22 caliber can hit 70ft/lbs and it's very capable.

[@life_of_riley88]

I agree. My threshold for a .30 is 100ft-lbs, and @100 ft-lbs. . .it's a great caliber for airgunning, I feel it's the best "bigger bore" size, but don't break that 100+ ft-lbs rule and it performs very well.

[@slick408]

@@life_of_riley88 I've seen slugs up to 150gr, possible to shoot something that heavy by adjusting the hammer on a 100 fpe gun? I'm thinking about getting the new umarex gauntlet .30 for my first air gun. I want to smack some coyotes that come at night for my 🐔 🐓 100 yards max.. any advice?

[@life_of_riley88]

@@slick408 The challenge with going over 50+ grains in .30 Cal is that you might get more energy, but not many guns will push them very fast. I think you'll find that 45-60 grain NSA slugs do VERY well on Coyotes as long as they're going above 900fps at impact. Try to stay at or above 100ft-lbs and you'll do fine.

[@mauria.303]

So what type of air rifle(s) is used?

[@thehuckleberryfactor2969]

Great video. Thank you. These types of unbiased factual information are gold for us newbies. Well done.👏

[@michaelcooper10]

That's because ma/ surface area = pressure. Therefore smaller projectile more pressure is emitted. Yeh or ney

[@BakerAirguns]

Partial "yeh." Pressure is F/A....but that is not the only force acting on the projectile. -Donnie

[@anthonypoole6901]

I thought the .30 should be somewhere around 100-130ftlbs??? I know the 50 is like 170 or so the 45 is somewhere around 150 or so is it not? They even have that new .72 cal out and its way up there too i dont know all the exact specs here . But i woukd like to know if that is correct because im considering getting a coyote night time killer for my arra

[@Rstpete1]

Good video. Penetration is important but so is wound channel. Both go together to affect a clean kill shot.

[@petalexben4227]

in practice the same type pcp do have a output 177 is 30 fp .a 22 45 fp, a 25 60 fp and a .30 80 fp so the comparing is only with the same output energy in your test and my tuned dreamline is doing 115 fpounds .30 also a 700 mm barrel and the rest tuning parts whats needed ,you can not get there with a smaller caliber because 150 bar is more driving force at a bigger bullet and also there is speed limit with pellets somewhere 900 fps (accuray)so you have to find it in the weight of the projectile the output.

[@travelcompass591]

Hi :-) its been a year already since this video came out, but since is such a good video I wanted to ask. I am new to PCP, I very much welcome the noise reduction from firearms, and an important information for choosing what caliber to get is the useful distance. What is the max hunting distance for these calibers?. Thank you.

[@Leadheadsam]

Great video thanks

[@aizaobba]

Thank you, this information is awesome and provides more things to ponder.

[@alanj7592]

By the premise you are evaluating these calibers would be like comparing the 25-06 with a 120 gr slug to the 30-06 with a 150 grain slug. The 25-06 pushes the 120 grain out at about 2980 ft/ sec for 2365 lb/ft of energy while the 30-06 pushes the 150 out at 2910 for 2820 lb/ft of energy. By your method what should be done when comparing the 25-06 to the 30-06 you need to reduce the velocity 30-06 down to 2670 ft/sec so it now develops 2374 lb/ft of energy and then compare how lethal each of each cartridge is to one another. By that same premise if the 338-06 is included into the mix with a 180 grain slug which develops 2950 ft/sec and 3478 lb/ft of energy we would then down load it to 2440 ft/sec and 2379 lb/ft of energy before comparing it to the other cartridges. The reason we move up in caliber is to primarily push a larger heavier slug at the same speed as a smaller caliber with the idea a larger slug with more energy equals greater killing power. It would be nice if you could to repeat the test using the muzzle velocity as the equivalence point and not the muzzle energy.

[@DUCKDOWN22]

Thank you for taking your time do to this video

[@Mei-ChiShih]

Excellent video. I learned a lot of knowledge. 👍

[@MWS67]

Anybody know what happened to this guy and the Baker Airgun videos?

[@EXTRA300s]

14:26

[@jeffb7255]

I would wonder what the specs are on the .357 Cal would be?

[@stevelongo8351]

Did you ever do a text with the 22vs25