What's the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White?

Middle Earth Lore
Gandalf, Tolkien, Wizards, Rings of Power, LOTR, Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, Hobbits, Frodo, Bilbo, Saruman, Sauron, Valar, Maiar, Valinor

[@thegreyhavens167]

🤔 Want more answers? 🧙‍♂️🧙‍♂️🧙‍♂️ 👉 Check out the full video on the FIVE WIZARDS on my channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWmpY4imndJ5jbM

[@caco3796]

YOU FORGOT THE MONTY PYTHON AND HOLY GRAIL'S BLACK KNIGHT-

[@olstar18]

Yeah you don't understand tolkien. The valar aren't gods. There is only one god eru iluvatar and the valar are the strongest of his first creation.

[@thegreyhavens167]

@@olstar18 Polite challenge to you here. I would suggest: * There is one "God" - Eru Illuvatar * There are several "gods" - the Valar, etc. I know Tolkien's son doesn't like to use the term "gods" in the Sims do his religious feelings, but Tolkien himself uses the term "gods" for the Valar all the time in his letters and essays. And for good reason: because that's exactly what the word means. Every mythology in the world uses the word "gods" to describe supernatural spiritual beings. Let's be honest, Manwe is super analogous to Zeus. Ulmo is almost exactly like Poseidon. They are called the Greek "gods". Would love to know your thoughts? What do you think?

[@olstar18]

@@thegreyhavens167 No more like archangels.

[@thegreyhavens167]

@@olstar18 Here you go. All quotes from Tolkien himself talking about the Valar: - "Of all things which the **gods** made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Eldar are woven." - "she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, the emblem of the **gods**, and the sign of doom." - "Thus it came to pass that after long council the **gods** resolved to make an assault upon the fortress of Morgoth in the North." - "In the North these shores, in the ancient days after the Battle of the **gods**, sloped ever westward..." - "Yet Morgoth whispered that the **gods** kept the Eldar captive, so that Men coming should defraud them of the kingdoms of Middle-earth..." We all read Tolkien differently, of course, and that's one of the things that makes it so enduring and amazing! 😅 But it feels like you are being a bit closed minded here... But either way, no big deal. Probably should stop telling people they dont know things, but aside from that I hope you super love reading the books and watching the films, and hope you have an awesome day today! 😎👍

[@samtheman3633]

Galadrial wanted gandalf to lead the white council but he was basically too humble to do it so they got saruman the stinky

[@thegreyhavens167]

TBH, Saruman would have gone NUTS if G would have accepted the leadership. Just even suggesting it is one of the bigger reasons why Saruman turned bad. I wonder how things would have played out if Galadriel had never said this??? 🤔🤔🤔

[@samtheman3633]

Hmm

[@KS-xk2so]

@@thegreyhavens167 I think it was inevitable. From day one all the cool kids were doubting the Saruman hype. Maybe because he was an Aule boy like Sauron.... maybe because he and Sauron were both in the S-club.... maybe they thought his lack of hat was weak.... who knows.... All I know is my man Beardy "Cirdan" McElf didn't think Saruman was shit... he slipped his magical bling to G-money on day one. Same with Galadriel, she was pimping G Squared for leader of the Council hard.... which I get. Olorin was the wisest of the Maia... the Wizzy's were told straight up, No Flexing, so who cares about strength, we need some wisdom up in this piece!! Probably didn't help that Saruman showed up all "look at my white cloak, I run this shit by default because my Mom says I'm special". I bet it set off Galadriel's "Proud Cock who'll Fuck Up" alarm that Feanor used to trip on the regular. I do wonder how Saruman became leader, given Beardy and Gal were Team G.... maybe Elrond was a massive Saruman simp or something? Thranduil is a jerk, he'd vote Saruman for sure... maybe Celeborn was jealous that G-bomb was gonna steal his girl and broke the tie for Saruman?

[@thegreyhavens167]

KS, First of all - that is the BEST comment ever. Dude you should totally be the one making these videos!! I love it! One note, the story does seem to infer to me that Manwe himself appointed Saruman to be the leader from the start. And wouldn't be surprised if that carried a lot of weight with the white counsel. I would also suspect that everyone knew if they didn't make him the leader, he would pout and not participate. -sheesh. That being said, Gandalf himself at first did seem (at least to me) to think that Saruman was the best leader. I wonder why? Just being humble? Or was even Gandalf missing Saruman's obvious character flaws???

[@KS-xk2so]

@@thegreyhavens167 Haha thanks man. I personally find it quite fun to talk Tolkien lore, but throw some modern slang in there. Most people who know a ton about Tolkien tend to be pretty dry and cerebral about it... no fun! I know my shit, and enjoy lighting up the dry discussions with some spice lol Yeah, I agree, I think Manwe made the call and everyone bowed to The Man......we lol I'd assume Gandalf didn't want to run the show because humble is just his style. Heck, the whole reason he got picked to go in the first place is Olorin was humble enough to admit he was afraid. No way Saruman admits that. He's got such "Hold me back bro!" energy lol

[@garliclover7991]

Gandalf told the fellowship in the mines of Moria to flee, just because he wanted to kill the Balrog himself to get all the XP and therefore the lvl up

[@thegreyhavens167]

Love it. Shared none of the XP or loot. Should rename him LetMeSoloIt.

[@butterchurn8819]

Imagine his pain as he watched the Balrog's sword break. RIP.

[@ImOnioned]

No his name should be xyahexyjey (+ an added 7 x's randomly in the middle of the name)

[@Nicolas-qc5de]

Leeroooooooooy Jenkins !

[@Reisboy_PhD]

genius move

[@wescobb8071]

It’s actually implied that Gandalf’s spirit left Ea, returned to the Timeless Halls of Eru and was personally sent back by Illuvatar, not the Valar.

[@julianmild2051]

Where?

[@wescobb8071]

@@julianmild2051 Gandalf's quote is that he "strayed out of thought and time," implying that he returned to the Timeless Halls of Illuvatar. Tolkien actually was somewhat more explicit in Letter 156: "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."

[@nickolas.vicente]

​@@julianmild2051 "What the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned." - Letter 156

[@nickolas.vicente]

​@@julianmild2051literally everything about the information in this clip is wrong. The word Maiar is the plural form, Gandalf is not multiple Maia. He's sent by the Valar, but clearly as Tolkien says himself, the plan of the Valar failed and was then taken up by Eru. There's nothing anywhere that says Gandalf the Gray went to Valinor when he died.

[@chase1146]

@@julianmild2051 basically outside of the known universe to the extra dimensional plane of existence where the end all be all god of the lotr universe is

[@elijahm4139]

I always saw it as the the blues didn’t do much, Radagast mostly looked after creatures and Saruman ended up helping the enemy so when Gandalf died they were like dude we’re sorry we gotta send you back. You’re the only one who’s doing his job

[@DesmolightDesmo]

As far as I’m aware, the blues did a great deal on eastern side of middle earth, generally where the easterlings are located and they tried to “uncorrupt” those that fell towards Sauron, and if not mistaken even inspired them to rebel against Sauron.

[@QuesoCookies]

I always figured that their colors were essentially power levels and domains that were an intrinsic part of their physical bodies. They couldn't just transform one color into another, so Gandalf had to die in order to be reborn as the white. He was pretty much already filling the role of the white during his life at that time, and yet wasn't granted the color and power bump like he should have once it became clear that Saruman had fallen, which you might expect to happen if just taking up the role of the white was sufficient to become it while alive.

[@steves578]

the blues literally lead a rebellion against the Khan of the easterlings and succeeded in destroying the Khan and his lineage, unfortunately the Khans army retook the city and destroyed the rebellion.

[@androssthered1157]

Wanted to hear more about the Blues. THAT could've been a show worth doing. But no, we got the shit show instead.

[@r3l1csvk]

if i recall radagast was tied to Yavanna which sounded to me like some incarnation of mother Earth being,tied to the nature,was was natural that he rather found his purpose in protecting animals,basically like Saruman who was tied to Aule was amazed by the craftsmanship,which for the very least lead him into creation of his uruk-hai

[@tellusorbit]

The Valar did not resurrect Gandalf and return him to Middle-earth to complete his task. They do not have the power to do so. Rather, it was Eru Iluvatar, the Creator, who did this.

[@thegreyhavens167]

@tellusorbit, I think your probably right. That's my guess as well. (one of the challenges for making short videos for both book readers and movie only watchers - some people have no idea who Eru is) Question for you though: are we sure the Valar didn't do it? I mean G just says "I was sent back". And the Valar definitely have sent back others in the past (Beren, Luthien, Glofindel, etc). Are you sure the Valar can't do this? Are we sure it was Eru? How do we know?

[@tellusorbit]

@@thegreyhavens167 Thanks for your reply, my friend. It is wonderful to see that Tolkien's works have such a large following on the Internet. To answer your question, I believe Tolkien himself said it was Eru who "resurrected" Gandalf and returned him to Middle-earth. I believe he made the point in one of his letters. I'll have to go back and find the quote and when I do I'll gladly share it with you and your viewers. You make a good point about Beren and Luthien being returned to Middle-earth. It was the Vala Mandos who made that arrangement, but in order to do so he would likely have to get permission from Eru or see some kind of divine intervention in their case. The Valar could not take back "the gift of the One," which is what a mortal life span was called, to Men. They made that clear to the Numenoreans who wanted everlasting life, and the Valar appealed to Eru when Ar-Pharazon of Numenor sent a fleet to invade the Blessed Realm. Eru destroyed the fleet and the Numenorean army as well as Numenor itself. I think it likely he allowed Mandos to grant Luthien's request for an extension of life for her and Beren. Why would Eru do this? Because it fit in with the outworking of the divine purpose. It was said that Luthien's line of descent would never fail, and from that line came the Kings of Numenor, Arnor and Gondor leading at last to Aragorn Elessar who played a huge role in the defeat of Sauron in the Third Age thousands of years later.

[@nickolas.vicente]

Letter 156

[@astrofan1993]

And if you notice how Saruman (through King Theoden) looked frightened when Gandalf revealed himself as the new White Wizard, it basically meant that he knew that the gods had forsaken him for turning to evil, and thus his days were numbered. And numbered they were.

[@jaketurner7321]

Gandalf the white was still not Olorins true power, but he was given permission to reveal more of it than before. As you said, his role was to aid man in learning to fight evil not defeat it himself.

[@enrique7208]

Very true. He is a god after all. I know this doesn’t happen in the books, but bo Ringwraith would be able to disarm and break a Maia’s defenses like what happened in Minas Tirith.

[@do__ob]

@@enrique7208 that's not in the book? I've always wondered how Gandalf was beaten so easily by the witch-king when I would've thought he was at least as powerful if not more.

[@enrique7208]

@@do__ob no, in the books Sauron’s army never steps foot in Minas Tirith like they do in the movies. They break down the gate and The Witch King on his horse is the only one(and only enemy ever) that’s ever stepped foot in Minas Tirith. Because of his power, his presence alone makes everyone defending in the area back away in fear. Gandalf is the only one who steps forward to confront him, then the horns of the Rohirrim sound and The Witch King turns to face them instead. Gandalf is never broken or backs away from him. Quite the opposite, he’s the only one who steps forward to challenge him.

[@do__ob]

@@enrique7208 oh cool. That's much better I think. I thought the scene started fine, with the witch-king coming to get gandalf, being super cocky like he could stomp him. But then he shouldn't have been able to. I mean Gandalf the grey killed a Balrog, I don't see Gandalf the white losing to him.

[@enrique7208]

@@do__ob yeah another good point. A Balrog is basically a Maiar(like Gandalf) that turned evil to serve Morgoth. The Balrog’s power is not limited, and Gandalf the Grey faced him. Gandalf the white is allowed to use more power, a Ringwraith should not be a problem for him when his lesser form fought a Balrog.

[@barryf7253]

Tolkien specifically said that the Valar are not gods, but are sometimes mistaken as gods by some. They are more like angels, or powers and principalities from the Bible.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Barry, thx for the comment, but I would politely challenge you on that one. I personally think Tolkien is just wrong on this one. IMHO Manwe or Ulmo have WAY more in common to Zeus and Poseidon... them most people's idea of an angel. Especially to Tolkien fans that are not in that deep. They are actually just like the Greek gods in power and knowledge and all. So that's what I was going for. What do you think? Am I way off?

[@barryf7253]

@@thegreyhavens167 Not way off, since Tolkien did base his lore on Norse mythology, which had its pantheon of pagan gods. But Tolkien was also careful to include the One God, Eru Illuvatar, who created the Valar, which is Biblically similar to God creating the angels (Tolkien was Catholic). In the Silmarillion, Tolkien specifically said that the Valar were often mistaken as gods, implying that they were not. He never actually called them angels, however.

[@Carolus_B]

​@@barryf7253He didn't have to call them angels, as he showed them being created the same way the angels were.

[@barryf7253]

@@Carolus_B Well that's what we call them.

[@Zeero3846]

They are like the angels specifically because of their created nature. Both the angels and the pagan gods are considered to have a lot of power, particularly to profoundly act in the world. However, simply having great power doesn't make one a god, as clearly the angels aren't. Gods are considered as such because they are divine by their own right. Even the pagans considered their gods with a sense of divinity that was not simply about commanding some kind of power. If this is the case, what is divinity? I would say it like this: if you are the god of something, then that thing exists, acts, and subsists because of you. On the other hand, the Valar or the angels don't have to exist for the thing they have command or authority over to also exist. They coexist within a created order. They are ordered higher than the things they can act on, but those things do not wholly depend on them.

[@LorisTheUntethered]

Gandalf the Grey accidentally left a black sock in the laundry.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Honestly, I'm glad he got some new threads. Those grey robes were getting super ratty.... and I like the new cut and drip. I do miss the old staff though.

[@LorisTheUntethered]

The old staff was honestly the best fantasy staff I've ever seen. Perfect design for his character. Unassuming, rough, dishevelled and humble but hiding near incomprehensible power.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Loris, 100% totally agree. It feels so iconic, so low-key carry, it's one of the best movie carry props ever. Funny, in the books I always identified G by his awesome hat game... that's what stuck in my imagination. But in the films, it's that epic staff! 10/10 G the White staff.... ok, makes sense, tells the story well, but just a B+.

[@casbot71]

Dude.... After his tussle with the Balrog, Gandalf needed to clean his robes, and he used too much bleach.

[@Gigas0101]

Difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White? And Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black knight? What about Benito Mussolini and the Blue Meanie? Cowboy Curtis and Jambi the Genie? Robocop, Terminator, Cap'n Kirk and Darth Vader? What about Lo-Pan, Superman, every single Power Ranger? Bill S. Preston and Theodore Logan? Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock and Hulk Hogan?

[@thegreyhavens167]

@Gigas0101, I was with you.... then you had to bring Lo-Pan into the conversation. Not cool. ┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘

[@Gigas0101]

@@thegreyhavens167 Don't be that way, you'd need all those guys to kick Chuck Norris in his Cowboy ass.

[@greenghost5821]

as a lyricist I applaud your talent. I hope you’re putting your poetry to even better use as a rapper, author, or poet. lol

[@michaelmurray8516]

Well done.

[@Ryroe]

​@@greenghost5821It's the lyrics from "Lemon Demon - Ultimate Showdown".

[@RaiderNic99]

It wasn't just his sacrifice against the Balrog. It was also because he was the only Istari, that we know of at least, that remained true to that original purpose of resisting Sauron. Saruman wanted power and wanted to make his own rings just like Sauron. Radagast lost himself to nature and animals. And since we don't know what happened to the 2 blue wizards we can't do much aside from recognize that Gandalf was the only one who continued the mission he was sent there to do.

[@edwardbailey2570]

I don't know if "lost himself" Is quite the term I would use for Radagast the brown. Even Gandalf, as much as he gets involved and uses his magic directly to counter the witch king and dark powers is mainly intended to act as a guide and advisor. And, most of the Wizards were indeed intended to help the races of Middle Earth. Radagast, in his role protecting animals and nature, was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing. As Gandalf says. He believes that Radagast is a very great Wizard.

[@Kirby666.]

And Monty python and the holy grails black night

[@Galaxy1001D]

If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Best. Comment. Ever!!! 🏆🏆🏆🏆

[@NicholasBLove]

Man these are so concise and articulated so well to fill in some gaps from the movies and questions I have after just finishing the book. Thanks man 💯👊🏼🙏🏼

[@thegreyhavens167]

@Bluesbreaker891, thanks for the positive vibes! I'm a new channel and don't really know what I'm doing, so I really appreciate the comment. ┏(‘▀_▀’)ノ Thanks

[@camerongrondzki2716]

Gandalf simply unlocked New game plus

[@thegreyhavens167]

Love the ER reference!!!! Honestly, Elden Ring is probably the most meaningful game experience I have had in a couple years 🤔🤔

[@uriahakabrowndog3406]

I see it as this: Illuvatar: I'm sorry Olorin, but you are simply dead Gandalf: Come on coach, it was one hit. Please put me back in the game? Illuvatar: Fine. I'll make you stronger. One more hit and you're out for good, understand?

[@thegreyhavens167]

@uriahakabrowndog3406, question for you.... the part of this that is a mystery to me is how Illuvatar communicates with the Valar or Maiar. I mean most of the time it seems like the Valar do NOT have access to him. They make tough decisions all the time, and often get it wrong, and it's clear if they could speak to Illuvatar it would go better. So in the few cases where he is involved in a direct way, how do you think it happens? - does he appear in a vision to someone? - do they like pray to him or something? - does a voice boom out of the sky? - messenger pigeon? - crop circles? Honestly, what in the world is really happening here?

[@uriahakabrowndog3406]

@@thegreyhavens167 I think Illuvatar has his own realm, thus the Valar and Maiar can make their own decisions and perhaps Illuvatar comes to them in visions when they are in desperate need

[@watcherwraith007]

@@thegreyhavens167 In the Silmarillion, it says that Manwë is the one to whom Ilùvatar still speaks, albeit in visions and thought. Manwë basically meditates and prays and gets his answer. As to whether Ilùvatar speaks to the Maia...I don't remember anything that says he does, but as Gandalf was Manwë's Maia to begin with, maybe he had special privileges when he died, in addition to the rewards that probably came from him being *the only one to actually do his job*.

[@natterbot4877]

I always saw it as that the song of the world was already written so illuvitar knows that if left to make their own decisions the Valar and Maiar will always choose what they are supposed to therefore illuvitar need not interfere

[@DreZzBE]

​@@thegreyhavens167the Silmarillion and the letters of Tolkien will help you with that..

[@prince218yt]

And Monty Python in “The Holy Grail’s Black Knight “

[@TheWanderingKnigth]

And Benito Musolini

[@prince218yt]

And the blue meanie

[@TheWanderingKnigth]

@@prince218yt and Cowboy Curtis

[@Guns_Blazin]

And Jambi The Genie

[@TheWanderingKnigth]

@@Guns_Blazin Robocop, The terminator, captain Kirk and Darth Vader

[@eflippo]

Love the Austin Powers reference. Perfect!

[@thegreyhavens167]

Thx 🤓

[@derais6162]

gandalf stole all that exp for himself shooing everyone away

[@thegreyhavens167]

What a jerk! :) Even worse, when the Balrog fell off the mountain G didn't get to loot him and get some legendary items.... what a fail...

[@aeonversestudios01]

The nerf concept is an excellent analogy of how God works in our lives. He doesn't serve to remove every obstacle from our paths for us. That is why I've always said sometimes praying is as simple as saying, "Watch my back, I'm going in."

[@thegreyhavens167]

Aeon, I like that a lot. In Christianity I think there is a concept that the divine won't give you more than you can handle. If so, I think you're idea is super applicable to Gandalf! "You fight the orcs that you can handle, and I will take care of the things you can't (giant Balrogs, etc)." I like this idea a lot.

[@calilaployploy2827]

Yes but i'm not sure if gandalf the white is his true power. It was a power up for sure but even as white his true power could only be released in valinor. There's no way the witch king could had that magic battle stunlock with gandalf at the gates of minas tirith if he had all the powers of a maiar. I mean gandalf is in the same rank as sauron, the difference is that sauron is not bound the same way as gandalf is.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Calila, Happy Tuesday! I think your probably right. Instead of "true power" I probably should have said something like "more" of his true power. Good call out! Thx. As for the Witch King, though, my personal opinion is that there is NO WAY the Nazgul can beat G. I don't even think it's very close. My theory is that the Nazgul are super scary, but actually cannot really hurt people too much and aren't dangerous... just intimidating. I mean, Aragorn did beat 5 of them with two sticks. But just my opinion, of course. I think G is just scared, but would totally wreck the Witch King. What do you think?

[@ekosh6266]

@@thegreyhavens167 whos G.

[@ragingbalrog]

Gandalf@@ekosh6266

[@-__-Unknown-__-]

@@ekosh6266 Gandalf. duh

[@ekosh6266]

@@-__-Unknown-__- Gandalf is Gandalf

[@luisan776]

And Monty Python, and Holy Grail’s Black Knight

[@fink_rat]

And Benito Mussolini

[@espurrman55real]

@@fink_rat and the blue meanie

[@2Piezeny]

​@@espurrman55realAnd Cowboy Curtis

[@sirawitmangmee7417]

And Jambi the Genie​@@2Piezeny

[@Pharry_]

robocop

[@velocity1852]

It’s crazy how similar he actually looks to Saruman it makes the scene where he comes back so confusing

[@baychimo23]

Your videos are so great and helpful to someone new to LOTR… thank you so much for answering the question I had but never thought to ask

[@Thiago_Alves_Souza]

Which makes the whole scene in the movie where the Witchking breaking his staff and knocking him off Shadowfax all the more ridiculous. My man is Sauron's peer at full power. He'd bitch slap the Nazgul

[@thegreyhavens167]

Agreed. I mean I get why that scene is in the movies... to increase the tension and all... but it just makes no sense. G would totally shrek the WitchKing!! I honestly dont think Witchy would even have actually attacked G 1v1... he's gotta know not to mess with ol grey beard, right?

[@dancooke8811]

No. Gandalf could not defeat The Witch King...no living man can kill him.

[@dancooke8811]

No they are more powerful sadly

[@-__-Unknown-__-]

@@dancooke8811 he is one of the maia, not a man. they are also just different levels. like asking lv 1 charmander to beat lv 100 charizard. witch king has no hope

[@justinokraski3796]

@@dancooke8811Gandalf is not a man

[@jaimeduncan6167]

My understanding is that it was Eru and not the Valar that intervine with Gandalf

[@colec1033]

dude was living in NG+

[@Loyd4798]

Bro wanted that raise

[@davidthompson3729]

He went up by 5 levels as a magic user...

[@thegreyhavens167]

Honestly, probably went 1v1 so he didn't have to share the XP with the rest of the group 🙄🤣

[@spider8]

Well, obviously, the difference is monty python and the holy grail’s black knight

[@espada9]

Gandalf earned his Maiar black belt, porra!

[@MackingCheese99]

Now throw in Monty Python and the holy grails black knight

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

The Valar aren’t gods. They are high ranking angels.

[@thegreyhavens167]

@carsonianthegreat4672 I hear what you are saying, and Tolkien would probably agree with you. But I gotta politely challenge you here. They are "gods", regardless of what Tolkien's christian background would think. Just about every mythology on the planet has super-human eternal spirits and they are always called "gods". I mean the Valar are super analogous to the Greek "gods". Manwe is a lot like Zeus and Ulwo is a LOT like Poseidon both "gods". Am I crazy? 🤪 What do you think?

[@CrunchyBananaFeet]

Man you are too good at this, you are so underrated 😭

[@thegreyhavens167]

Thanks Pancake. I appreciate that!! Trying my best. You were one of my first ever commenters.. so I think your awesome. Maybe your the one that's underrated!

[@TheSkyLineDJ360]

Yes !!! Lmao these are great. Keep up the awesome content

[@thegreyhavens167]

Awwww Yeah!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Thanks for the compliment! Glad you liked it. 🧙‍♂️

[@thatoneguydom8855]

I love this editing style

[@detectivewatch6140]

what if the Nazgul joined the Fellowship to destroy the One Ring. This is something that I want to ask because it seems interesting, like how would things play out in the story?

[@thegreyhavens167]

Detective, first of all I love love love Deus Ex. The first one (2000 or so) was one of the best game experiences I ever had. And Human Revolution was EPIC! That's a cool question. Gandalf said they were enslaved to Sauron far too much to ever come back. That they were the only ones that would not even take the ring for themselves because they were completely under his control... but how could he know for sure? They must have secretly HATED Sauron for what he did to them, right? That would be super cool to see how it would have played out. What do you think?

[@detectivewatch6140]

@@thegreyhavens167 i would like to see them in Action and see what conversations and Possibly bonds with the fellowship... I always like villains, teaming up with heroes. It would be so cool. And some character development for the Nazgul and in my opinion It would be so cool to see the Nazgul team up with Eragon, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf to fight Sauron. what do you think?

[@Timasion]

My recollection is that he wasn't sent back by the Valar, but by their creator, Illuvatar.

[@eugene251]

Sir we are trully humbled by your epic video + explanation

[@thegreyhavens167]

Aw yeah! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Really glad you liked the video! Thanks for the compliments. Let me know if you ever have a question or topic you want a video on. I try to keep up with the comment best I can. 😎

[@uchihaitachi181]

Monty Python and the Holy Grails, Black Knight. I will be taking no further questions.

[@thegreyhavens167]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@k7l3rworkman97]

Gandalf went and leveled up whil the rest of the Fellowship remained level 2s and 3s 😂

[@thegreyhavens167]

Whoah.... Your saying he STOLE all of the XP? That sly took of a wizard.... 🤬

[@elliottreadings8029]

When I hear "Gandalf the Grey, and Gandalf the White" my brain immediately finishes it with "And Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight."

[@brenlc1412]

And Benito Mussolini

[@matthewb9906]

and the blue meanie

[@brenlc1412]

@@matthewb9906 and Cowboy Curtis

[@espurrman55real]

@@brenlc1412 and jambi the genie

[@brenlc1412]

@@espurrman55real RoboCop,

[@Jet_Rod_94]

That spawnpoint was dope af

[@ras79r]

Hey mate, awesome video! The visual gags and verbal game references were really funny! Great job man

[@thegreyhavens167]

Awwww yeah! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Thanks! Glad you liked it.

[@grunzoink]

I was having a hard and sad day today and your so well made well researched and funny shorts lifted me up a lot, I saw everyone of them

[@thegreyhavens167]

Grunzoink, thanks for the positive vibes. I really appreciate it! I'm a new channel and have no idea what I'm doing, but trying to have a bit of fun ヽ(•‿•)ノ Sorry you were having a tough day. We have all been there... I know I have. Hang in there. Eventually the "Sun shines the clearer".

[@BrettWMcCoy]

He was still pretty grumpy for a resurrected god

[@thegreyhavens167]

hadn't had any of the Hobbit's pipe weed for a couple weeks I guess?

[@abispanner3957]

I love these shorts XD

[@thegreyhavens167]

Aww yeah!!! (⁠ノ⁠^⁠_⁠^⁠)⁠ノ. Thanks a lot, I appreciate your comment. Glad you liked it!

[@abispanner3957]

@@thegreyhavens167 Well, I appreciate your work, so thank you! :D

[@abispanner3957]

@@thegreyhavens167 Also made me want to go and read the books again 😁

[@scumbaggaming9418]

Finally someone explained this without sounding preachy

[@RobertWF42]

Did Gandalf go back to Middle Earth willingly or was he expecting a little vacation time?

[@thegreyhavens167]

@RobertWF42, oh man, now that is an interesting question (o_O) ? I don't think we know for sure, but here is what I can think of: 1) originally, he did NOT want to go to Middle Earth... because he said he is afraid of Sauron. 2) it was apparently terrible to be a spirit trapped in a human form, and they all GREATLY wanted to return home. So my initial thought is he probably didn't want to come back. But then again, he did really care about his friends and all so maybe that would have swayed his mind? Honestly, that's a really great question. What do you think?

[@liamlease1552]

@@thegreyhavens167 i personally think that the Lords of the West may have had some part to play in this. It was them after all, who sent the Five Wizards to begin with.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Liam, I agree. I think he was probably asked/told to go back. In the book Tolkien "guesses" that maybe it was ERU himself, not that Valar, that sent him back. That's pretty baller.

[@RobertWF42]

@@thegreyhavens167 Good question, I reread the passage in TT when Gandalf the White appears in Fangorn Forest. He doesn't mention what happened after dying after the battle with the Balrog.

[@QuesoCookies]

​@@thegreyhavens167 I like the poetry of Gandalf's biggest failure being his attachment to the Hobbits that blinded him to the Ring sitting right under his nose for decades, which he probably cherished because it made him feel less alone and trapped in a physical body, then becoming his redemption, by driving him to return to physical life and its suffering rather than remaining in the afterlife containing everything he thought he ever wanted and was using the Hobbits to substitute for. What brought him down then lifted him up, and what was meant to transcend him to the home he was searching for condescends him to the home he found.

[@atanasatanasov8333]

Gandalf just level up 😅😅😅

[@nateeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

"Hm, this guy is named Sauron man... yeah he'll be perfect to help aid in our resistance against Sauron!"

[@CuffsJNW]

Pretty sure "earned" is a very optimistic word for having to return to all that suffering instead of chilling 😂

[@thegreyhavens167]

Your right! Can you imagine going to work for a 2,000 year long shift, finally getting home, putting your feet up on a chair, and then the boss says... Get back to work! Dang, poor Gandalf got wrecked!!! 🤣

[@CitiesTurnedToDust]

A lot of people don't realize this plot point became the basis for DnD "leveling". So games owe a great deal to this one idea.

[@thegreyhavens167]

@CitiesTurnedToDust, woah... I have never heard that before. That's actually the coolest little fact I have heard in a long time. Makes total sense once I think about it. Thx!

[@tommerker8063]

no, it's not. experience points and leveling up were around before DnD.

[@elite_rock_god2292]

Quick answer. Gandalf The white is weaker then gandlaf The Grey cause The hobbit movies says so based on The amount of spells he can do in them compared to LOTRs 🤣

[@LocalBookHead]

"Whats the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gendalf the White... ...and Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Night, and Benitto Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie, and Cowboy Curtis and Jambie the Geanie, Robocop, the Terminator, Captain Kirk and Darth Vader, Lo Pan, Super man, every single Power Ranger, Bill S. Preston and Theodor Logan, Spock, the Rock, Doc Ock and Hulk Hogan."

[@floppacaracal5158]

And "Monty Python and Holy Grail"'s Black Knight

[@watcherwraith007]

OMGOSH THIS WAS AWESOME The special effects along with the sheer amount of lore and (THIS IS THE WAY) Imma subscribe now

[@thegreyhavens167]

Watcher, thx for the positive vibes! I'm a new channel - and not sure I have any idea what I'm doing :) - so I appreciate the love. Thx.

[@watcherwraith007]

@@thegreyhavens167 Middle Earth is my soul's home, and I love the way you've set these up. Query for you: Why was Eärendil not allowed to return home after her went to beg help from the Valar and did Elwing's ability to turn into a bird come from her descent of Melian(a Maia)?

[@thegreyhavens167]

I feel the same way about M.E. I know the stories and characters are great... but it's really just that world that draws me in. It's just such a joy to live in that world for a while. Anyways, I am also totally confused about Elwing's bird transformation. Luthien did something kinda similar when she turned herself into a Vampire Bat. I assume the two events must be related, but both seem like a great mystery to me. I need to give that one some thought! As for Earendil (what a LEGEND!) many of the Valar wanted him punished for setting foot in the Undying Lands. Mandos, specifically, wanted to have him killed on the spot (O_O ). My guess is that they felt his corrupt-human-mortal-death self would pollute Valinor (though hard to sync that up with Frodo and Bilbo being allowed to go.) So Manwe didn't want him totally punished, but also felt he couldn't let him go off without some type of slap on the wrist... so that's the solution: send him to Venus. I'm not sure that's 100% canon or anything, but that's how I read it. What do you think?

[@watcherwraith007]

@@thegreyhavens167 I recall that Elves and Men, while being both Children of Ilùvatar, are different in many ways. Elves were invited to Valinor and Men had a destiny that awaited them beyond death that none knew but their Creator himself. It is possible that Valinor was never meant for Men in the first place, and since Eärendil made that journey, he was, in a sense, where he did *belong* in a more fundamental way. However, Eärendil is also part elf, and his journey had a higher purpose and force behind it than just a "I travelled to Valinor" kind of trip. So, my thinking is that he half did, half didn't belong. His mortal half probably had something to do with why he couldn't return, similar to how Beren sequestered himself with Luthien after returning to life(that was AN EPIC SCENE). But Eärendil is and always would be a mariner, and so to prevent him from sailing back home and to give him new places to explore, the Valar decided, as you said, to send him to Venus :] Luthien's abilities were said(I believe) to have been partially from her mother, which could explain her transformation. Melian was a Maia of Irmo(Lorien), I believe, of dreams and illusions, so Luthien's abilities made sense to me in that way.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Yeah I LOVE the story of Earendil. It's honestly very simple, and it's written so sparsely... just a few pages... and I think that's one of the things that draws me into it. I have to use so much of my imagination to fill in all the gaps. That guy was EPIC. But for me Beren and Luthien might be the best story I have every heard, from any medium. It has everything you could ever want. I'm shocked it's not super famous and in pop culture and being made into plays and movies. I definitely get your ideas there... and I think I agree with them. The half-elven family there always does seem a bit out of place, not quite belonging anywhere. I mean Elrond is a true Elf at this point but people still make a point to call him half-elven. What I dont get though, is the part about Bilbo and Frodo being allowed in Valinor when Earendil was not. That's hard to understand.

[@MadDadLad]

Not only did he come back, he took Saruman's place and boinked him from his perch😅

[@Lab-Gr0wn-Lambs]

he can now play as Luigi

[@thegreyhavens167]

Perfect! 🤣🤣🤣 But wait... who wants to play as "Luigi" 🤔🙄

[@TeRiYakiDRACHE]

Good edit

[@HolyMith]

Gandalf was sent back because Saruman went bad. They called him "the white" to indicate that he was to take Saruman's place as the head of the Istari, such as they were at this point anwyay. It was more of a symbolic gesture to let "the wise" and also Sauron know that he had been promoted as it were. He also didnt get his full power, as he was still incarnated in a mortal body. He was given more power yes, but he was still limited by his body and his mission in middle earth, which was not to win the battles but rather rally the free folk so they would defeat Sauron themselves.

[@chickendrawsdogs3343]

Using Dr Evil and Mini-Me to visualize the Valar and Maiar is just...🤣

[@sergiv5613]

Sp basically hes just playing New Game Plus.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Agreed. He solo'ed the Balrog so he could horde all the XP for himself. (there is on in every party 🙄🤣)

[@nicholascherneski]

Now he just needs some Halfling Leaf and he'll be set

[@michaelmurray8516]

Same Gandalf, now jacked with extra wizardry goodness!!

[@morganblackheart9468]

And yet stayed humble AF

[@prot07ype87]

*Wrong.* *It's NEVER stated that Gandalf's spirit went to Valinor.* It's strongly implied he went outside Ea and into the *Timeless Halls,* that's why he said he "strayed out of time". Also: Eru resides in the Timeless Halls, and resurrected Gandalf and send him back to Middle-Earth.

[@GunSwordGaming]

as someone new to LOTR, this video was fantastic

[@thegreyhavens167]

Awww yeah!!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Thanks! Glad you liked it!

[@GunSwordGaming]

​@thegreyhavens167 oh wow wasn't expecting a response to something from some months ago. Great content! Wish school was taught like this

[@wolfo11]

Got an upgrade and assumed Saruman's role "I am Saruman or rather Saruman as he should be."

[@Topikkaperna]

that skyrim quest sound, lol!

[@thegreyhavens167]

🤣🤣🤣. Nice catch! Something tells me we both spent waaay too many hours playing Skyrim.

[@subway2227]

Then Monty Python and the Holy Grail’s Black Knight

[@dilancalero5854]

And Benito Mussolini

[@brikus9876]

Bro got new game +

[@thegreyhavens167]

you died..... I have seen that phrase about 4000 times over the last year 🥲🥲🥲

[@matthiasravencroft]

Gandalf unlocked New Game Plus

[@enricopaolocoronado2511]

And he was accompanied by Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight, and Benito Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie, and Cowboy Curtis, and Jambi the Genie, Robocop, the Terminator, Captain Kirk, Darth Vader, Lo-Pan, Superman, every single Power Ranger, Bill S. Preston, and Theodore Logan, Spock, the Rock, Doc Ock, and Hulk Hogan when he came back.

[@virtuousvice9714]

In short: Gandalf the White can say Saruman the Stinky, whereas Gandalf the Grey can’t.

[@sakazukiakainu1323]

Tha was helpful Thanks

[@thegreyhavens167]

Thx for the positive vibes! 😅

[@EdwardRMaher]

one chases you off his farm the other welcomes you in for tea.

[@bringitonbatman]

I'm wearing headphones and that "This the way" felt like it was being said to me over my shoulder, that's creepy 😂

[@sulfuras1985]

"So the gods are the valar..." *Eru has entered the chat*

[@thenoseguy]

And Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight

[@dilancalero5854]

And Benito Mussolini

[@jan_Majeken]

what about the difference between monty python and the holy grail’s black night? and benito mussolini, and the blue meanie

[@matthewwilliams4065]

Gandalf the white needs to feast on fresh flesh of young male hobbits to sustain his power... thats why he took Frodo in the end.

[@thegreyhavens167]

😬

[@MFGEEDORAH]

"...and monty python's holy grail's black knight..."

[@zac0918]

grey had a cool pointy hat

[@thegreyhavens167]

So unfortunate that G the White didn't get a new hat. I mean, what's the deal with that? Gandalf has the most epic hat game ever!!!

[@zac0918]

@@thegreyhavens167 a white pointy hat probably would have looked bad on screen, just saying.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Best comment ever 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@marcmarparran7753]

'But how are you alive again, Gandalf?' 'That's a fascinating question - for another time.' 🤦‍♂️

[@salgreco8353]

True story! Well done!

[@thepawchoe2749]

That k you for clearing that up

[@matthewalves3855]

I wish he kept his Wizard hat when he leveled up. I always miss his pointy Wizard hat.

[@zzzlulzzz5080]

Gandalf the Grey = Nerfed version Gandalf the White = Slightly Nerfed version

[@boba3369]

Gandalf got himself a new robe that all

[@tosdy8480]

and monty python and the holy grails black knight

[@DR_Shepard]

As a lord of the rings fan I think it’s so important to read the Silmarillion in order to really understand the events the main trilogy. The war against Sauron goes all the way back to the beginning of time when Sauron’s master Morgoth (basically satan) went against Iluvatar (god). Sauron could have become a threat to god and that’s why he was willing to intervene and grant Gandalf another life

[@XibalbaScrolls3000bc]

Wow this makes so much sense 👏 I thought he gained level like a Pokémon evolving that he'd forget most of his former self ?

[@neks0073]

So, it's a closer comparison to angels than gods. They do have their own domains, but in the Tolken universe only Eluviatar is considered a god. The Valar are arch angels, where the Maiar are average level angels. It can then be explained that gandalf got a promotion by Eluviatar, *NOT* the Valar.

[@thegreyhavens167]

Yeah, I was trying to be super simple to get the idea across to movie-only viewers. But I agree, it does sound weird. 🤷😅 Though for me, personally, I do refer to the Valar as the "gods" and Eru as "God". JRRT used that language a lot and I think it works well ... I mean the Valar are pretty much exactly the Greek gods. Not sure why CT disliked the term "the gods" so much and changed his father's work. It's a weird one to me. What are your thoughts?

[@DragoNerd137]

This is the way

[@PhilbertDeZwart]

I knew this but I enjoyed the explanation anyway

[@yessenianunez7980]

Duuudddeeee I was wearing my earphones and when you said “this is the way” it only sounded in my left earphone and I got scared!!!!!!(mind you I was watching this vid in the middle of the night with my lights off) I thought it was something speaking to me 😭😭😭

[@thegreyhavens167]

Oh yeah Yessenia, now I'm in your head! (evil laugh) Now, let's talk about why you are watching videos in pitch blackness... :)

[@sketchflix6425]

Now this makes sense ❤

[@TheBalisongBear]

What a great video

[@thegreyhavens167]

Hey thx. I really appreciate the positive vibes! I'm a new channel and don't really know what I'm doing... so really appreciate it! Glad you liked it!

[@TheBalisongBear]

@The Grey Havens well, keep following your instincts because this was a great to-the-point video, and your comedy style is on point. Honestly, I didn't see how many subs you had and figured you had at least 10s of thousands.