What The Church Gets Wrong About Singleness | Ep. 323

[@buffalolifesavers]

This was sooo good! I'm a parent of 3 teens who also runs a courting group online. We recently started hosting a teen night for Christian teens from different churches in our area for the reasons you mentioned. I can't wait to share this episode with my courting group!

[@jred1838]

Thank you for this topic today. I have a different experience than you both. I converted to Catholicism at 26, so I have both sides of the coin experience. When i was in the protestant church, I saw exactly what you were saying about not pursuing marriage actively. My Bible study friends would just be "following Jesus" and out of the blue they felt God would tell them that so-and-so was meant to be their spouse. I happened to be the object of two men that God "told" them that I was to be their spouse. I felt they just spiritualized a crush, and personally, I was not attracted to either of them. I met my spouse at a deli I worked at. He came in as a customer and asked me out. As our relationship deepened, we had to decide on the religion issue as he was Catholic. Long story short, I came into the Church in 1990 and we married later that year. Elijah said something to the effect that there isn't doctrine on marriage (sorry if I over simplified that). What I have appreciated in the Catholic church is the Catechism has covered almost every topic you can imagine. So, I looked up marriage. First of all, it is deemed a sacrament so therefore, it is held as something holy and esteemed. Second, CCC 1602 speaks of Sacred Scripture beginning with creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concluding with the vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb". So, this church anyway, would encourage marriage. Anyway, the paragraphs that follow are much more thorough than I can be here. Practically speaking, we purposely put our son in a small, conservative Catholic college so that at least the girls there would likely have a similar mindset. Yes, he found his lovely wife and they have 2 wonderful children. Anyway, I think it is kind of humorous to think of pursuing marriage as "worldly".

[@RCGWho]

My daughter had a guy pull the "God told me to marry you" thing. She was not attracted to him at all. Some people use the comeback, "God didn't tell me." It's manipulation to just drop that on someone. If you are really convinced the person is the one, there will be a relationship and mutual attraction, not just coercion. Pray the other person gets the memo if yoy are convincedthey are the one. It takes a lot of restraint to keep quiet and let things unfold naturally.

[@LaurenSheehan]

Raises hand as being a parent who intentionally picks churches, communities and activities with the intention of "I want my children to be able to find the people they can marry and I want those people to be kids who come from homes who are teaching them to value and desire marriage and gods design for gender roles" 🤚🏽🤚🏽🤚🏽

[@BeyonceStan95]

Also I think the whole “I’m just focusing on the Lord” thing is something single people do to correct from over focusing on marriage. Yes you can pray and go to places to meet people but if you focus exclusively on finding someone to marry and it’s not working out that can get depressing. I think people opt out of dating and opt for contentment in God in an intense way because dating for years and years is exhausting.

[@RCGWho]

I think young adults should fr pray and ask God *if* He wants them to go to college, Bible college, YWAM, get a job, move, serve in an orphanage, etc. Don't go anywhere by default like university or with an agenda. Your eye should always be on the prize, whicht, not a career or money or marriage. I've been told God can't steer a stationary vessel. Pursue what you feel convicted to pursue as you pursue Christ and let God bump you into opportunities, forks in the road, a mate etc. How discouraging to do any of this with an agenda and graduate unmarried. I think people act like God is sovereign, but not when it comes to marriage. Suddenly He needs assistance. Remember Sarah and Hagar? Suddenly, we need an arranged marriage or a dating app or to attend Bible college for the wrong reason. On balance, back to the moving vessel, yes, you can't hide in your house and meet someone. You have to get out there in the world in order to meet people.

[@elizabethmoore6993]

My husband and I met and married at a Christian college so I can say yes it is nice to be in an environment where it is more likely to find a spouse. However, I remember also seeing some men and women desperate to be married that they didn't make wise decisions in regards to pursuing relationships.

[@CityofEvelyn]

You two look so in love in this podcast 🥰❤️ so nice to see! Wishing you the best!

[@hadiyahnasiep5701]

Hi Elisha and Katie. Firstly I'd like to say I am an avid listener to your topics and especially the topics related to children as I have 2 of my own that I have also joined Katie's "Get it all done club" and absolutely love it!! All that to say I am a Muslim and from an Islamic perspective we definitely believe marriage is extremely important as we have a saying from our Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) : "When a man marries he has fulfilled half of the religion; so let him fear God regarding the remaining half." Islam teaches that marriage fulfills a lot of the fundamental needs for the individuals and for society, it is the basis upon which we build our Islamic lives. Our holy book, the Qur'aan (which has been divinely inspired to Prophet Muhammed by Allah (God)) says that having a spouse and being in a marriage is to honor the bonds between a man and woman that have been prescribed by Allah (God) since the beginning of humankind, which is I believe basically what Katie said about Adam and Eve, so profound ❤

[@erikabutterfly]

I see where you're coming from, but I think both you and the position you attributed to the "church" misrepresented biblical singleness. Marriage is good, singleness for the Lord is good too - if it's truly intentional singleness. Biblical singleness is not a cop-out, avoiding hardship and responsibility, but rather the decision to work for the kingdom in ways that would be difficult for a married person. Now some say married people can serve in those ways too, but it's definitely more difficult for them to do so, without neglecting their families. It's not good for a man to be alone is true. We all need companionship. That's why I don't think single people should live alone, though there's no biblical prohibition against it. It's best for christian singles to either keep living with their parents or live with a room-mate. Their cost of living per person goes down, and so they are free to invest more of their time and/or money in caring for the poor and serving the church. By serving the church I primarily mean the people in their local church, whether that's in their hometown or whether they're out on the mission field somewhere. They have the flexibility to run errands for the old and sick, to visit them, help nurse them if needed, and even move in with one of them for a time if necessary to be able to help them better. They can participate in family life by regularly spending time with and helping a family with many little children get over those first rough years. If a single person lives that way, then in turn when that person grows old, it's the church's responsibility to care for this person and not neglect their needs. By that time there would hopefully be more biblical singles in the church again to take up that work, which is so often neglected or grudgingly done. If after a time of serving in this way a single wants to get married, they have built a good character that will be a blessing in marriage. But it's also possible to stay single, to grow old serving the church in this way so that singles also have older single people to look up to and gain wisdom from, not just older married people. The point is biblical singleness is neither focusing all your energy on finding a spouse, nor is it goofing around, doing whatever, but claiming to live for the Lord. It's an intentional way of life that is focused on serving the church in a way more suited to a single life. It's not for everyone. Serving the Lord and His church definitely is, but married people in different ways than singles. And that's why the church needs both.

[@RCGWho]

1 Corinthians 7 [32] But I want you to be free from concern. The unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; [33] but the married man is concerned about worldly things, how he may please his wife, [34] and his interests are divided. The unmarried woman or the virgin is concerned about the matters of the Lord, how to be holy and set apart both in body and in spirit; but a married woman is concerned about worldly things, how she may please her husband. [35] Now I say this for your own benefit; not to restrict you, but to promote what is appropriate and secure undistracted devotion to the Lord. [36] But if any man thinks that he is not acting properly and honorably toward his virgin daughter, [by not permitting her to marry], if she is past her youth, and it must be so, let him do as he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry. *** These guts are literally in a niche part if the church and are real life 7 Brides for 7 Brothers. It's not most people's experience. I've met 1 family with like 10 children. They ended up falling into emergent/woke in the early 2000s (Rob Bell etc) and I think very few of their children are serving the Lord.

[@beyoncestan-oo8zt]

100% I don't like it when Christians act like the great commission is to go and be married

[@JasmineFriesen]

can’t wait to hear this episode🤍 I needed this !!!

[@JuniperLynn789]

Often, I think the “I’m just focusing on the Lord right now” line comes from not wanting to appear desperate. Our recent generations have an issue with this. It stems from fear. Fear of rejection and shame. I love watching those old 50’s videos with life pointers and guidelines with varying topics. The young single people are so confidently open to members of the opposite gender and even their forward gestures to show interest. They don’t play hard to get, have no shame or fear in asking for phone numbers, giving compliments, or to set up a date. Any behavior that is based in fear of rejection, shame, or failure is not of the Lord. He does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sound mind.

[@mycupofcocoa1125]

I think being great at friendships can be more relatable everyone then marriage and it’s great skills for marriage or any relationship.

[@colorene5905]

Cool❤

[@RebeccaM132]

I’m curious if y’all could hone in and be more specific about what your lists of non-negotiables should be in comparison to the more Nick pick things that people get petty over. I was dating this great guy a ways back but now (he ended things) I’m actually seeing a lot of things about his personality that could’ve potentially caused problems, but a lot of our visions for ourselves lined up real well. We’re not seeing each other now, but for future reference, could y’all draw a more detailed image of what sort of non-negotiables you’d personally have/had compared to personality traits?

[@RCGWho]

35:00 This is all human reasoning and not faith that God is sovereign. But then he switches gears to believing in sovereignty. I'm not sure if you're calvinists. I'm not fully. I think personally God is a lot like the movie Forrest Gump. Lol It's a mysterious intersection of His will with ours. His part with our part. Our part is to pray, pursue Him as the One Goal and main ambition of our lives, be where He wants us to be, and be open to get married or not as He directs. I believe in Divine appointments like the meeting at weddin or a bus stop etc when you least expect it.

[@thepassholderfamilyshorts]

What are some of the names of the family camps and conferences your parents attended?

[@yassa1231]

There should be a noticeable difference between the OT’s persistent theme of faith being spread via progeny (from the Creation Mandate Gen 1:18) compared to the absence of this focus in the NT - The Great Commission is designed to be a fulfillment of the Gen 1:18 mandate; wielding in (and giving dignity to) singles, the barren and widows into that mission, empowering them to be fruitful, multiply, and have spiritual children. We are now all able to participate in this command to make disciples, regardless of your martial status. That’s where our Christian culture can be at risk of over-emphasising marriage; the gospel gives great dignity to singles where they find family in church family and join in the mission. Rosaria Butterfield and Sam Alberry are great authors to give practical ideas on how married couples can bring single brothers and sisters into their lives and families.

[@RCGWho]

My pastor used to say "first the natural, then the spiritual " as in OT vs NT, natural Israel vs Spiritual Israel etc. So, that's true, bur I don't think it negates the natural.

[@yassa1231]

Yes it doesn’t negate, but it does fulfill - the NT brings colour and understanding to the OT law and commands. Married couples should fulfill their working of the Great Commission by being fruitful and multiplying (this is how God designed marriage)- however we aren’t under the Creation Mandate in the same way as we are now under the Great Commission - they aren’t two separate commands but Matthew 28:16-20 perfects Gen 1:18.

[@RCGWho]

I am thinking of Amy Carmichael "“If Thy dear home be fuller, Lord,For that a little emptierMy house on earth, what rich rewardsThat guerdon were.” Don't ask me what a guerdon is. Lol. Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says the LORD.

[@heathere9240]

Wonderful episode. Best so far 🙏❤️

[@ans1044]

My opinion is that alot of christian parents give advice to thier kids to not marry in haste because of the sad state of thier own marriage. The critical thinking part of the human brain ( prefrontal cortex) only fully matures at 25. They want thier kids to thrive in marriage not merely surviving.

[@RCGWho]

I think it's also the American obsession with status, education, career, and 💰. I don't think it's nearly ad spiritualized as Katie and Elisha make it out to be. It would actually be great if it were true and they were all going to the mission field. (Feminism is a big factor as well.)

[@beyoncestan-oo8zt]

​@@RCGWho it's not status, it's also reality, is it wise to have children if you cannot afford them? is that being a good steward? My parents worked good jobs and were able to afford me a good quality of life, I wanna do the same for my kids. I don't care about status, I just want to be financially secure so I can take care of myself, my family, my parents, and even have money to help others in need.

[@RCGWho]

@beyoncestan-oo8zt All of that you said sounds practical, bit it is Western modern thought. Affording kids to most Ameri and means you go to college, make as much money as possible, and have 2 kids so you can send them to private school, but them a cat, pay for their insurance, put them in sports and dance and music lessons, get them braces, and send them to college. Rinse. Repeat. That's the American Gospel. Very much about status. I was raised on this kind of thinking. Confusing being in the right zip code and paying our children's way in life and making sure they make you look good for stewardship. Stewardship is putting all your chips in on the kingdom of God, looking for the biggest return on the investment. Financial stewardship is more about gratitude and contentment and generosity and building the kingdom rather than $90k Mercedes or Audis or big houses. It's less about an impressive stock portfolio. We think all those earthly things are necessary. They are just not.

[@beyoncestan-oo8zt]

​@@RCGWho I'm not saying any of this from an American perspective, I'm Nigerian and I was born there and moved to Canada later in life. Poverty is a very real and present reality, I have family members who have children that literally could afford to take care and had to rely on others to feed, clothe and send to school. I'm not talking about summer vacations, I'm talking about being able to afford normal things, housing, food, shelter, clothing, basic education, and health care. My parents did not give me a lavish life but they gave me a good life and most importantly they loved me, that's all I'm talking about! And they had the resources to be a blessing to others in our family. Lots of people have lived with us, we send medicine to people. I feel like it would honestly be irresponsible for me to use my privilege to use the education my parents gifted to me which has allowed to be debt free to be a blessing. I'm looking for a spouse but in the meantime i'm being helpful where I am in life and saving $$.

[@RCGWho]

@beyoncestan-oo8zt Oh. Okay. Well, I was addressingmiddle-classs American dream culture. Thanks for sharing.

[@BeyonceStan95]

Around the 17 minute work you said God intended marriage for 99% of people, how do you know that? 👀

[@jennifermartinez9477]

Marriage is for most ppl because most people do want physical intimacy and children. Look at how many young people fall away from the faith because of Sexual immorality, fornication, and pornography. Marriage won't magically solve those perverted sin issues, but it would help one to pursue sexuality within the confines of Marriage.

[@RCGWho]

That's presumptuous. Based on history, you could say MOST or the majority want to marry, but not 99%. About 50% are gay today (I'm exaggerating but barely) which puts the kabbash on a huge number of marriages.

[@TB-zc7uz]

Genesis 1:28.

[@RebekkaMH13]

While I can't speak for Elisha or Katie, I'm assuming that is their way to say "the vast majority". I don't think they're making an exact, scientific claim. People use that number to say "close to 100%".

[@bigfatdogby]

@@RCGWhobarely exaggerating lol

[@RCGWho]

Somewhere about minute 30:00 Money 💰 One extreme: vow of poverty or being a bum who won't work and feigns spiritual reasons Other extreme: pursuing wealth and material gain Paul Washer hasn't pursued earthly wealth. But he's also not a grifter (I trust!!). 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. Matthew 6:19-21 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: So is he that layeth up treasure 1 Timothy 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

[@volume4103]

Wait what, being attracted to those we hang out with has a scientific explanation? I need deails...hahah