What Was the Mission of Jesus? A Conversation with Greg Koukl

Did Jesus come to earth to champion the cause for the poor and oppressed? While he cared deeply about bringing justice to the poor, and spreading a message of peace and love, his primary mission was different. And we must get this right! In this conversation, I talk with apologist Greg Koukl about the main reason Jesus came to earth.
READ: The Legend of the Social Justice Jesus: (www.str.org/w/the-legend-of-t...)
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[@christopherflux6254]

Tim Kellers ‘Generous Justice’ is a good book on this subject. People who say that social justice is the Gospel are very wrong. People who say it’s wrong to care about social issues (poverty, racism etc…) are also wrong.

[@m.r.6222]

Jesus was a Salvation Justice warrior

[@MikeWinger]

Such a great discussion. Greg is so skilled at providing clarity.

[@bobjones9725]

This is not clarity. It is ignoring the plain wording of scripture. How anyone can take the seminal passage to this whole debate (Luke 4) and ignore the literal poor, imprisoned, and oppressed as well as ignore the whole concept of Jubilee, is beyond me. It's a wholesale twisting of the scriptures.

[@mjjackson5963]

@@bobjones9725 Bingo!!!!!!

[@LonestarEventPro]

@@bobjones9725 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me. It's odd when the truth stares someone in the face and they deny it, like the man forgetting his likeness after using a mirror. Since I grew up sadly as a southern Baptist, still scared from the depth of the racism they taught, you can see their denial of the message of Jesus in regards to social justice gives the the right to continue to be godlessly sexist and racist. To admit it would be admitting their righteousness is indeed dirty rags. It's the great godlessness of conservatives to excuse their evil of treating others poorly to make themselves look better. My wife is a recipient of social justice, she's received her masters, equal and competitive pay and selected on a leadership track at work. She's almost a perfect proverb 31. The scripture is also pro foreigners, but you could NEVER tell with these conservative types, they always have an excuse for ignoring the scriptures that interfere with their political masters. I'm done pretending their master is Jesus especially after what they voted for in the last 4 years.

[@FireflowerDancer]

Normally I agree with you wholeheartedly Mike (big fan of your videos!). But Greg's effort to divide Jesus' ministry between people with 'real poverty' and people with 'spiritual poverty' is illogical. Historically this kind of teaching comes from conservative cult groups who believe they are so holy that they don't have to obey the government. Even when it comes to civil rights laws that confront their hypocrisy. Like when they tried to make scripture say to keep blacks out of church and treat women like objects. And drinking alcohol behind closed doors to keep everything 'under control.' I want nothing to do with this culture, I won't spread its ideals; I don't see how it's any different than the original pharisees Jesus rebuked. I'm not saying that Greg has this kind of corrupt character, but his 'opinion' of how to interpret the gospels reeks of protection for a certain socio-economic status. None of us are above correction, though and all of us have prejudice. The most important question is, how do we respond when perhaps correction is warranted?

[@mjjackson5963]

@@FireflowerDancer Greg basically did what Marcion did with the whole New Testament

[@theologymatters5127]

Greg need to write a book on this. This a HUGE!!! Way bigger than we know. This touches on so much right now

[@tedsess3106]

He has...it's called, The Story of Reality - one of the best books on Christian belief and worldview.

[@desnock]

@@tedsess3106 Well, no. A book on his particular belief and worldview. Christian thought is not monolithic, just ask all the sects and their infighting.

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

@@desnock Are you a trans woman?

[@mariec8417]

I have always appreciated Sean's clarity, his thoughtfully phrased questions and recaps of answers; and this time it was beautifully complemented by Greg's carefully worded answers to make sure he doesn't get misunderstood. Super appreciate the care, the clear presentation of points, the use of Scripture and really, just letting the ring of truth peal out. Thank you Sean and Greg for this edifying discussion! God bless your good works!

[@elainekidd1746]

Spot on

[@reuben.l.murray]

Thank you for this crucial topic! And it's amazing to see Greg Koukl in your channel.👍🏻

[@jrhemmerich]

It’s correct and important to note that being poor cannot be automatically equated with injustice being done to them. But it’s tricky because sometimes a person might be poor because they have been treated unjustly. Additionally, it’s worth noting that the OT law did make provision for land owners to make provisions for the poor (the corners of the field). If these owners did not allow the poor to glean for example they were considered to be unjust (Boaz is just because he allowed this). Because this social welfare was an obligation under the law, this would seem to indicate that some things that we call mercy were considered to be obligations of justice in the OT. That being said, we definitely should not confuse the gift of justification with the efforts of sanctification that result from it. We should press for justification by faith alone, but a faith that works in and through justice and mercy.

[@nicoleparsons7630]

excellent reply! you articulated this very well. I came here to say something similar, and you said it much better than I would have. thank you

[@richhazeltine1413]

@@scottbaldridge165 thanks for this additional understanding. Just curious, can a Marxist be a saved person? Would his repentance include turning from his anti capitalist view? Regarding land in O. T. law. Each tribe was given a portion of land which could not be sold. They could apparently lease or rent the land but every Jubilee year the land was to be returned to the family and all debts forgiven. I live in an area where land is so precious that normal people cannot afford to live on it. The rich do and get richer in the process. Capitalism at it’s best. Most of the churches (in my experience) are in fact capitalistic consumeristic endeavors.

[@desnock]

What silliness. "what you have done to the least of them you have done to me". These folks (Sean and Greg) should crack open a Bible and actually READ what Jesus said. Matthew 25 comes to mind. The kind of Pharisee's view (because that's all this religious apologism is at the end of the day) that justifies opposing Christ's actual ministry for whatever agenda and/or magical thinking is just simply despicable. By their fruits shall you know them. Sean is admirable for having multiple POV on his channel, but if he's gotten caught up in opposing Christ's ministry which was DEFINITIVELY social justice of its day, then you're missing the message for the magic(al thinking) and you become an apologist for a cult, not the divine.

[@desnock]

@@richhazeltine1413 The question is can a capitalist be a saved person, Judaism of the day wasn't capitalism, folks tend to take an ahistorical view based on their own confirmation biases. In fact, Christ said things like "render unto caesar", etc. He gave the beatitudes, He gave the parable of the Samaritan, He said "what you do to the least of these you do to Me". I think that essentially is what you're observing that what passes for "churches" today are literally the opposite of what Christ preached. So those "cults" are indeed the Pharisees he critiqued for the same reasons.

[@scottbaldridge165]

@@richhazeltine1413 Thank you for your response! Have you written further on this subject, or fo you know of some thoughtful theological reading? God bless!

[@amandacarmel6084]

Wow what an amazing talk!! I learned so much!! Absolutely amazing ❤

[@Mrs.CGraves]

It wasn’t Jesus job to care for the community.. it’s MY job. It’s a commandant placed upon us individually. He wasn’t only focused on the poor, or elderly.. it was ALL people.

[@jennifernihongi9696]

Thank you for discussing this topic. "Jesus was a social justice warrior" has always been really strange to me and could see why some people may think that. But after hearing Greg's explanation and having read the Gospels themselves, it's very clear that Jesus wasn't a social justice warrior and had a much bigger mission in mind: our salvation. :)

[@desnock]

How one like yourself or Greg can read Scripture (especially the Gospels - including the beatitudes and the "what you have done for the least you have done for Me" (Jesus talking)) and NOT see Christ as a social justice warrior is very telling. It's very clear that Jesus was talking about salvation and what that looks like in THIS life by which you can BE someone that just espouses petty words, or you can be a member of the ministry that at its core is about helping others (love your neighbor is an instruction in the HERE AND NOW, not the magical thinking where you magically get eternal bliss and your enemies burn forever). Grow up.

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

@@desnock Are you a trans woman?

[@anthonybarber3872]

Magical? Explain.

[@akadwriter]

@JoeLily Jesus' first sermons included "Repent" so yes Eternal matters were His focus. Get outta here with this blasphemy!!

[@fletcher373]

​@@The_Word_Is_The_Waywhat a stupid thing to say. Clearly you are not Christian if you got offended by the idea of Jesus command to do good works, it is clearly started in The Bible.

[@TheChrysalis83]

This one was a bit of a miss for me. I'm an evangelical ACNA Anglican and a fan of the channel, and I broadly agree with the argument being shared, but I think the point is pressed too far. For example, Matthew's beatitudes are cited as example of how descriptions of poverty/oppression are only spiritual. However, Luke's version of the beatitudes lack this "in spirit" phrase, making each statement sound more literal/physical. Money is a theme in Luke, so this makes some sense. Which exact version Jesus said or whether perhaps there were multiple occasions where the language came out differently I don't know, but this feels like a both-and situation to me. The other piece that felt missing here was reference to the old testament in cases where it didn't fit the case being presented. Jesus, while Son of God, is also coming as the last in a series of prophets railing against the wickedness, injustices/oppression within Israel. He makes allusion to jubilee. I'm very much not in favor of eisegeting social justice ideas where they don't belong, but to polish it out of the text completely goes too far.

[@DPouesi2]

I love these brothers in Christ and their writings. For Apologetics, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell is a must-have. The first thing I read by Greg Koukl was a small article (now a video) cleverly titled, "Never Read a Bible Verse" and his book, "Relativism: Firmly Planted in Mid-Air", co-written with Francis Beckwith. Great to see them discuss Social Justice which is anything but biblical. Sadly, so many Christians (and known Christian writers) have sold out to this worldly worldview! Reminds me of a well-known G.K. Chesterton statement: " It is always simple to fall; there are an infinity of angles at which one falls, only one at which one stands." God bless you, Gentlemen!

[@kensey007]

Koukl at 18:00: "Jesus never campaigned on behalf of the poor.... It was never part of Jesus's ministry at all." Matthew 19:21: "Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" I agree that physical worldly help for the poor was not the primary focus for Jesus. But Koukl overstates the case.

[@ChicanaCuriousMama]

Sean, Loved this discussion!!! In the untangling of my faith (and rebuilding of it), I’ve followed a few progressive Christian influencers and was open to hear their perspectives. I was almost convinced by a lot of their views of scripture and who Jesus was. . . Until, I came across this video🙏🏼 In my search for truth, I know this was not a coincidence. Thank you for having this profound and deeply theological discussion.

[@reksubbn3961]

I understand that Jesus did heal a lot of people early in his ministry but not so much later in his ministry. He actually walked away from the sick early in Mark. He had a greater purpose. All of the evils in our day were also present in Jesus' day. Great video.

[@Redeembyhisblood1x]

Love from India

[@simonskinner1450]

The justice behind Jesus was to regain access to eternal life for those that do no sin, so sinners can repent and be forgiven sins at baptism, as they walk in the Spirit.

[@juliedesear7831]

This is one of the best teachings I’ve ever heard on the reality of what Jesus real life purpose was…to save us from our sins! Thanks so much

[@kellyanne7225]

Same! 👍🏼🥰

[@paulajames6149]

Fire video! I would say I am not an intellectual nor am I a good reader. I read the bible but I do not know the ins and outs of context or history. Every point he stated was familiar to me and my understanding of those scriptures. It is very clear that Jesus mission was to seek and save the lost. I started watching a progressive youtube channel recently just to understand their views. I have watched maybe a dozen videos with guest speakers. Wow, what a drastic difference in comparison to this video. This video is looking for truth in scriptures. The amount of scriptures referenced in this video is wonderful and life giving. The progressive videos is all about their experiences and fighting for injustices, very little scriptures or if at all. It elevates people and their worth. It is not about elevating God and truth. Such a different gospel!

[@desnock]

Except they cherry picked and avoided, well, Christ - who spoke about social justice all the time - in parables (Samaritan) and behavior (love your neighbor, what you do to the least of these you to to Me, the Beatitudes). Jesus would have considered this hogwash of that was analogous to the Pharisees of the day - religious zealots that used religion to hold the congregation in sway and to whom Christ said were damning their adherents to hell twice over.

[@feltonite]

I appreciated Greg Koukl mentioning Ephesians 2, being saved by grace, and created to do good works. I had been struggling with James and its discussion of works. I think I kind of understood it intellectually, but Ephesians 2:8-10 made it clear to me.

[@desnock]

Try Matthew 25, where Jesus is speaking. Be careful to make an idol out of folks who aren't Christ but pretend authority of Christ. At the very least it should make sense that Christ is the arbiter of His words, not the interpretation of others - even those who never met Him like Paul.

[@mechelledesigns]

@@desnock Didn’t Paul meet the Lord on the Damascus Road. The Lord specifically called Him out to be an apostle. He was then discipled for two years by Barnabas.

[@desnock]

@@mechelledesigns Paul claimed to have a vision on the road, not confirmed by anyone. Becoming a follower to someone else doesn’t lend veracity to authority in any case. Paul doesn’t speak for or as Christ any more than any follower of Christ claims. But Christ points out that not all that claim His name follow Him. So we should take any claims of authority of anyone, ‘apostle’ or not against the test Christ offers on discernment. If the tree yields bad fruit, it cannot be considered good. I am not against seeing Paul’s positions as things to be considered, but to confuse them with Christ’s authority breaks Jesus’ first commandment against idol worship. Not saying that to be confrontational, I think people have been taught very bad dogma from their pulpits if the state of the church is any indication. The laypeople are some of the most angry, hateful and afraid people out there.

[@mechelledesigns]

@@desnock Ananias was instructed by the Lord to go heal Paul. He was reluctant, but was obedient to go heal him. That also confirms that what Paul’s vision was true. No one saying that Paul goes against what Jesus said. The video was talking about what James said as opposed to what Paul said about grace and works. Interesting you seem to think you have more knowledge of who we should listen to. Basic reading of the word and comprehension skills and a good commentary to get a better understanding.

[@desnock]

@@mechelledesigns None of that "confirms" anything other than shared delusion. It certainly doesn't impute or confirm authority on someone who claims "God told them something", as if that were the only litmus test, all someone would have to do is say "God told me" and then have someone say "yeah, God told him" to impute authority. You don't speak for "everyone", so you can't make a fallacious claim that "no one" saying that Paul goes against what Jesus said. Jesus said what He did and if Paul goes against that, JESUS says Paul's non-authority is wrong and again, giving Paul the authority of Christ is idol worship and breaks the 1st commandment. The video did what Paul also mistook (as did James, the same argument against idol worship and opposing Christ applies). Salvation/magical thinking is not the basis (Paul and the apostles got this wrong as they got MUCH wrong) of Jesus' ministry, but ministering to the meek and poor as a CENTRAL (certainly far more than childish belief in eternal reward or punishment) theme. Interesting that you think YOU know more than someone who obviously has far more understanding of Scripture than you do. Humble yourself. Ask questions. Being a Scriptural illiterate who intones dogmatic mistakes only reinforces your need to learn to critically think, read and adult. Jesus says all these things, so if you'd prefer to worship idols, no one is stopping you, but you might want to learn to read and think first before you make an even more complete fool of yourself, in your emotional fear and despair, to someone who is merely trying to educate you. I forgive you, but that's not your problem, but the pride that opposes Christ. But again, it's your choice when confronted by people who obviously have a deeper understanding than you do in any manner of things. Being a petulant child won't win you any arguments, or help you put away your sinful pride. All it does is confirm what Jesus said of those who claimed to follow Him who HE called "evildoers" doomed to hell twice over. So if you want to go the magical thinking route, the road to hell is paved by your behavior here. Grow up.

[@nehertz]

Thank you so much for posting this! It came at a perfect time for me as I work to re-dedicate my life to Christ after a long period of being lost and confused by following my own sinful desires. It gave me peace and solace by reminding me and cementing the idea that through faith and belief in Jesus, I may be saved from sins.

[@brieannatyler6055]

This is a fantastic conversation! I love your ministry Dr. McDowell. Thank you so much for using your God-given gifts and talents in a way that brings Glory and Honor to Him!

[@nelidascott6917]

Wow! Perfectly articulated and spot on! Thank you ❤

[@taramckinley7585]

I found Voddie T. Baucham Jr.'s book: "Fault Lines - the Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's looming catastrophe" to be an excellent source concerning Social Justice and other Critical Theories that are so pervasive in the Church right now.

[@michellebaran5933]

Just love Greg Koukl! Thank you for the interview!

[@kholemlangeni1373]

I loved every minute of this discussion. It's enlightening

[@Notevenone]

Love this conversation, thanks Sean and Greg. Greg Just heard you say the “spiritual poor” not the poor of money. Wow that was enlightening. Wow.

[@daveg5420]

I’m confused by his use of this argument. In mathew 5:3 it says poor in spirit. In Luke 6:20 it say poor. (No mention of spirit). I have always taken this as both are truths. Not that one author didn’t understand what Jesus meant. I’m not questioning Gregs motives, but I don’t understand his train of thought. This argument doesn’t stand up to his own cherry picking argument.

[@donnaburden.dip.d.analysis2148]

This is so true, what a wonderful and enlightening video. Thank you so much. Xx

[@martymarty1438]

Great Interview and conversation! Thank you Sean and Greg.

[@angietorok8389]

Ah! I get it! People are confusing the fruits of salvation with salvation itself.

[@saraoroszova7685]

This actually helped me with a view of giving money to homeless people. I always felt like I have an obligation as a christian to give them something or I wrestled and felt bad when I didn't. Thank you Sean and Greg for discussing this.

[@laugustam]

Check out Francis Chan's take on this.

[@patticarey9016]

@@laugustam can you share a reference, video, article for us to read or view on Chan's view?

[@laugustam]

@@patticarey9016 I am attaching a link here, and would like to say two things. Firstly, thank you for asking as I have once again been blessed by this message. Secondly, I just wanted to say that I had taken a reference such as I had given before, just the name, and watched sermon upon sermon just feeding myself and trying myself to learn as much as possible instead of asking for a specific reference therefore avoiding a painstaking search (which isn't painful at all but we're "told" in our minds that it is). I suggest that you go watch this link, but do go on to watch the others, and also the Bible. We need to learn to feed ourselves and not just receive it all chewed up for us already. God bless. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3iyip-hfdWJp8U

[@damianlaw5560]

Check out Jesus’s words in Matthew 25.

[@desnock]

@@damianlaw5560 Or Matthew 6.

[@KD-vw3bv]

THANK YOU for this apologist topic 🙏

[@originalvybepromotions7269]

thank you - so important to clarify these topics!!

[@rajeshniallen4507]

Thanks, Sean. So good.

[@veritatemdicam4585]

Great explanation of Jesus' purpose on the earth.

[@Lillaloppan]

Thank you so very much 😊🙏!

[@angietorok8389]

I can't help thinking that as human beings, we tend to prefer works based judgement and addressing social justice issues because it is easier to appear to be doing good in the world than it is to give up the sin that we love in exchange for everlasting life.

[@firstchurchofgod4657]

That sin that we love is rooted in selfishness. This false gospel described in the video is a sin that comes from spiritualizing the commands of Jesus to the detriment of the call to love our neighbor in literal ways. I believe Dietrich Bonhoeffer would look at the grace we teach and see it as he did in the days of Nazi Germany. "Grace without price; grace without cost!" There is no equivocation on Jesus' part when he describe the reasons for which you will be judged at the Last Judgement in Matthew 25. "‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’"

[@suelloyd4384]

Thanks for giving a scriptural basis regarding the purposes of Jesus.

[@kathrynknipe6615]

Thanks!

[@randymanske4887]

Great !! Love it !! Spot on and delivered well !!

[@edithlewis2880]

Look at the bookshelves behind them . Mmmm wonder what it means?? Love both of these men their books are part of my bookshelves

[@joystephens5630]

Great conversation between two people of God.

[@lydiabouts8572]

EXCELLENT.

[@ApologistInDetroit]

Luke's record of Jesus announcing His ministry: He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” Luke 4:16‭-‬21 NIV

[@bobjones9725]

Thank you. After listening it was like we have this need to help Jesus say what we think he should have said.

[@richhazeltine1413]

@ApologistinDetroit I will just add to this excellent response to some bad Bible teaching that Jesus’ miracles were proof of His anointing. Matthew 11:4.

[@christophersamuel4935]

More context from Luke as we consider the defintition of "poor" in Luke 4:16-21. In Luke 3 ("never read a Bible verse" out of context) the people speculate if John is the Messiah because of his message. And what was his message? Luke 3:8 - 15 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” “What should we do then?” the crowd asked. John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.” Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely-be content with your pay.” The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. or when you go over to Luke 6:20-26 where Jesus literally contrast "poor" with the rich. Luke 6:20 Looking at his disciples, he said: “Blessed are you who are POOR,

[@donnaburden.dip.d.analysis2148]

Powerful xx

[@maevestevens3078]

I found this so helpful! Thank you

[@Mrs.CGraves]

Jesus never said “ we must force Rome to care for us” “we must dismantle the systems in place” he said “YOU” must care for the widow, the poor, the sick.. he came to save ALL of us. Ephesians 2:11-19. We are all one in Christ. The Holy Spirit will transform your heart, and help you understand if you pray for discernment.

[@srohre9513]

For some perspective on how ‘Social Justice’ is impacting the church get a copy of “Enemies within the Church” DVD.

[@MrJimwinder]

In Luke 5 Jesus heals a paralytic let down through the roof. The first thing he says to the man is “your sins are forgiven “. This is his primary reason for coming to earth. He is bringing redemption for mankind. The Pharisees were outraged that he would say something so blasphemous. And then Jesus says what is easier to do? Forgive sins or heal a paralytic. In order to prove that he can forgive sins, he then heals the paralytic. If the paralytic had been healed but his sins had not been forgiven it would have been a terrible tragedy. Every single person Jesus healed eventually died. We will all die physically. The primary reason Jesus came was to provide a means for us to be forgiven and reconciled with God so that when we die, we will enter into eternal life. So the answer is no, Jesus did not come here to be a social justice warrior. All of this said, he did tell us that we should love our brothers. And that means that we are to care for the poor and the needy and stand up for the truly oppressed. But we would be failing in that charge if we did not preach the gospel to them so their sins can be forgiven.

[@MrJimwinder]

I’d like to add the note that I believe every time Jesus healed someone it was primarily to prove his deity and his authority as in this case. The decisive goal was not the healing but approving of his deity.

[@richhazeltine1413]

Jim Winder the Pharisees were outraged because Jesus acted like God...only God can forgive sins they thought. We as followers are commanded to forgive sins. Jesus demonstrated what the kingdom of God would look like on earth. His miracles were evidence that he was the Annointed one. Read the response Jesus gave John's disciples about who he was..Luke 7:22.

[@richhazeltine1413]

I think that he was proving his identity as the anointed one sent to save Israel. That's what John was trying to get proof of when he sent his disciples to question Jesus: " are you the one or should we look for another?" He persistently did signs and wonders predicted by the O.T. prophets..

[@desnock]

@@richhazeltine1413 Or the writings conveniently claim He did signs and wonders - magical thinking is a weak foundation for a mature faith. Concentrate on the instructions OF Jesus, not the mythological stuff, which doesn't inform His ministry or the ministry He instructs us to. We don't do good because we are afraid of a punishment, or do good because we want to be rewarded. That's childish and the Pharisee's driven church has misconstrued reward/punishment as Christ's ministry - in fact Christ had harsh words for such thinking. Do unto others, what you do to the least you do to Me (Jesus), the parable of the Samaritan, turning the other cheek - these are the instructions - concentrate on the instructions. I am beyond disappointed in the pulpit today, but no more so than Jesus must be.

[@richhazeltine1413]

@@desnock I don’t understand what magical thinking you see in what I wrote I don’t believe that salvation is a ticket to heaven and escape from hell. What part of my response was not based in scripture? Maybe you can be more specific about which gospel verses you think a mythical.

[@jimstair6494]

Jesus came to reconcile man to God by demonstrating the life of perfect obedience, training at least 12 disciples, then dying as the perfect sacrifice for our sin and rising from the dead to prove that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the ONLY Way to the Father. He also sent the Holy Spirit to lead His followers to accomplish His purpose in all subsequent generations, until the day of His return and safeguarded His Word to provide the story of the Gospel as the inspired revelation to combat all heresies.

[@freedomhouseministries]

Excellent! Something I will carry from the conversation: what some people point to in the Bible as "social justice" the Bible calls "mercy." The Bible does not teach that poverty itself is necessarily the result of injustice. That is a Marxist idea. Ah, yes. So helpful.

[@waldensmith4796]

Jesus sermon on the Mount covers all the issues on Social Justice why because the Gospel has transforming power. Jesus did not come to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. Who is Jesus the question is often asked to the unsaved and unbelievers. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Now to the believers Jesus is the our soon coming king and Lord.

[@kellyanne7225]

I didn’t know that “salvivic” was a word! 😉 This was so spot on Biblical!!! ♥️

[@mimimorrison8253]

Jesus left us "The Great Mission" Matthew 25:31-46 and "The Great Commission" Matthew 28:16-20.

[@curiousgeorge555]

I think Tim Keller has a more Biblical take on this topic. Great, great sermon. Well worth the time to watch: Blessed Are the Poor - Timothy Keller [Sermon]. That being said there is much good in this video. 57:05 Sean makes a great point. Sean clarifies more than one point that the guest is imprecise on.

[@marcospou6541]

One doesn’t exclude the other.

[@Mr.DReed10]

Justice for oppressed, hurting, and less fortunate people is ONE OF the main themes in Jesus' ministry, life, and, teaching. His PRIMARY purpose was to seek and save the lost, but it wasn't his ONLY purpose.

[@desnock]

Actually, it was HIS only purpose (the ministry of His), the magical thinking was ascribed to Him, by and large, as a religious magical view AFTER His life. Very little of the Christian story of how churches developed have to do with HIS ministry, but instead coopt Paul's magical thinking into a way to manipulate congregations. To problematic outcomes.

[@laugustam]

I agree. It's so easy for people to pick what they want out of His story just to fit in with their ways of life. As a whole, Jesus came to proclaim salvation to sinners (one of these being keeping the poor in their condition of poverty), secondly we can find from His very own example of life as well as His teaching that we should be doing what we can for the poor. Let's not forget that when the young rich man came to Jesus, he was told to sell his riches and give to the poor and the man walked away. It isn't only because his heart was set in his riches but besides not wanting to part from his riches he didn't really want to give it away. And I add to that that since then, the population of "young rich persons" have increased so much, also causing poverty to increase much. These things are all correlated, really. Let's not pick and choose what we believe in just to fit with our conveniences.

[@desnock]

@@laugustam I agree with both of you by and large, but I want to be clear that Jesus actually didn't talk about this magical idea of salvation nearly as much as He did in the ministry of the day. It is the apostles and Paul that popularized this magical thinking, which I'm not arguing isn't present in the NT, but as far as Jesus goes - take a look at the red letters - I'm not saying Jesus didn't suggest He should be followed, but it was about action in the present - the instructions to us - not for some heavenly reward or eternal punishment as the central theme. He taught how to live and act. Now some (I would suggest this is due to spiritual immaturity) hold on to the salvation/punishment as the central theme of Christ. Nothing could be further from the truth and so for folks like this to use magical thinking as the central tenet of the faith is somewhat Paul's fault, who we have to remember, didn't ever interact with Christ directly - he claimed a vision. The reliance of folks on this undermines the veracity and value of the faith, and can become not only a huge waste of time, but for folks who rely on this - essentially miss the actual instruction of Christ to argue who is "in and out" of the "salvation race". I sincerely feel Jesus must weep at the co-opting of his love for us, that so many have used it to justify the sins of pride, arrogance, greed and bias.

[@desnock]

Allow yourself to hear another's pov: to only do things because you're afraid of the belt, or needing a cookie (or validation) isn't a mature spirituality and we're told to put away childish things. If that's your context, you may want to look into a more mature relationship with what your faith means. Do good because the poor need our help. The hungry need to be fed. Not because your selfish soul hangs in the balance, but because you find value in being OF value. This is what Christ spoke about, so you might want to "dig into" Christ's instruction more. I think you are suffering a little of worrying about the speck in another's eye (one that is somewhat amusing because I'm trying to teach you what Christ said, but you have to be in the mood to listen) vs the log in your own - again, Christ said that. I find it remarkable that people who call themselves Christian find an argument all the time with Christ Himself. It may go to His point about the Pharisees who prefer dogma over humility. Who prefer to feel "special" without any real reason other than a belief caught up in "us" vs "them". Would take an atheist doing what Christ instructed as being of infinite more value than someone who hides behind Christ to pretend that magical thinking is important (not saying that of you, necessarily, but it's a critical observation). Take your own advice and ask yourself if you might be wrong, and that someone who is merely repeating Christ's ministry to you might be the one that "needs to do more digging", all due respect. God Bless.

[@desnock]

@@laugustam If you don't understand something - then ask questions, or inform yourself. Admitting you don't know something is half the battle, do yourself a favor and learn the terms and THEN be critical, don't allow your fear or confusion to precede listening to others who may be trying to teach you something. The irony is you suggest OTHERS dig, while avoiding the same in your response. Allow yourself to hear another's pov: to only do things because you're afraid of the belt, or needing a cookie (or validation) isn't a mature spirituality and we're told to put away childish things. If that's your context, you may want to look into a more mature relationship with what your faith means. Do good because the poor need our help. The hungry need to be fed. Not because your selfish soul hangs in the balance, but because you find value in being OF value. This is what Christ spoke about, so you might want to "dig into" Christ's instruction more. I think you are suffering a little of worrying about the speck in another's eye (one that is somewhat amusing because I'm trying to teach you what Christ said, but you have to be in the mood to listen) vs the log in your own - again, Christ said that. I find it remarkable that people who call themselves Christian find an argument all the time with Christ Himself. It may go to His point about the Pharisees who prefer dogma over humility. Who prefer to feel "special" without any real reason other than a belief caught up in "us" vs "them". Would take an atheist doing what Christ instructed as being of infinite more value than someone who hides behind Christ to pretend that magical thinking is important (not saying that of you, necessarily, but it's a critical observation). Take your own advice and ask yourself if you might be wrong, and that someone who is merely repeating Christ's ministry to you might be the one that "needs to do more digging", all due respect. God Bless.

[@pauldavid2407]

This was awesome. Would love to see you guys do more together

[@calvarychapelharrogate3015]

Dude, you got Mike Winger to comment? that’s awesome! You’ve reached the top! Anyways, great video/interview very helpful!!!

[@jrhemmerich]

The point that eternal salvation from sin and alienation from God is the main thing, is well taken. When it is turned into the “only thing,” at 41:15, this goes off track. Let’s be careful that we do not separate the fruit of salvation from the root. If it is true, that the tail (social justice) is wagging the dog (eternal salvation), the reaction here at several points, which is saying that the dog is the “only thing,” will severe works (sanctification) from grace (justification). Jesus is the king of a new creation. So his salvation of the poor has many layers to it. It means that he was interested in freeing Israel from the oppression of the Romans, he was interested in freeing the poor in Israel from the injustice of those that did not follow the law. But he does not do this from the top down, with a sword, but from the bottom up, by words and persuasion. Ideally to transform the oppressor from the inside out (thus the beatitudes not the sword were the weapons of the oppressed, Mat. 5). The law contained a mandatory poor tax at the government level (Deut. 26:12-13, 14:28) as well as structural provisions for those that lost in the free market (poor decisions or bad fortune, weather, etc.) via the 7th year of debt forgiveness and the 50th year of land restoration (Jubilee). The law also recommended personal charity. The law presupposes private property, but not separated from points of communal obligation. What is clear from the law given to Israel is that it balanced personal responsibility with a social safety net. It was not a totalitarian Communist state, but neither does it place structural acts of redistribution to the needy outside the proper sphere of civil justice. Nor does it say if you only pay the poor tax, you are off the hook and have no need to give personal charity. The balance and wisdom of the law for Israel is very impressive. We would avoid modern political pitfalls better, and understand the implications of Jesus’ bringing salvation to the civil society better if we looked at it closer.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

Excellent analysis and counter examples, John. I don’t see Jesus lessening the Law’s concern for the poor but putting legs on it, intensifying it with His upside-down-kingdom teaching, and empowering it by His saving grace.

[@FireflowerDancer]

I pretty much agree with everything you said, only you put it all together more sophisticated than I could!

[@FireflowerDancer]

Just wanted to add that much of the gospels was Jesus rebuking the Pharisees because of how corrupt they were- and it seemed that their corruptness was in mainly how they mistreated/took advantage of the poor and needy.

[@jrhemmerich]

@@FireflowerDancer Amen. We can get some historical perspective on this when we read Josephus. In the section of his Antiquities, right after he talks about the killing of James, the brother of Jesus, by the son of Ananus (the same Ananus whom Jesus said during his trial, that he would see him coming on the clouds in judgment from that day forward), Josephus speaks of Ananus’ corruption and love of money. It was so bad that he used to hire thugs to steal from elderly priests their portion of the priestly pension, so that some of them suffered dire want and even starved. That such behavior is reported of the leading priest and father of many of the high priests of his generation simply goes to show what moffia type greed was prevalent at that time. Josephus does not seem to indicated much sympathy for Ananus when he was gutted by revolutionaries after being reduced to hiding in Jerusalem’s sewers in the war of AD 70. So very sad, when the priests were supposed to be just in their treatment of the poor, yet were guilty of what today we would classify as elder abuse against even the poor priests.

[@jefferystanley9466]

Yes both men are really skilled at explaining their narrative.Justin peters of Clouds Without Water is equally as good at explaining his narrative and he proves his statements with clips of videos. Check him too. But keep following Sean. I believe his show is second to none

[@tompeers53]

Excellent! Article…helpful & nice, but a book would be even better.

[@FireflowerDancer]

I'm sorry Dr. McDowell and Mr. Koukl, but I don't agree that we should separate the loving actions Jesus took from the offer of eternal salvation which was the ultimate goal of his ministry. The suffering of the poor was a special part of Jesus' ministry, not because he supported, or didn't support, a certain socio-economic status, but because meeting people's practical needs was part of how he showed them he loved them. Giving to others is the foundation of our Christian calling. In Acts chapter two, the believers lived in such a radical way that nowadays the only place you see this is in a hippie commune. They "shared everything they had" . . . sold what they owned" and "gave each other everything they needed." (Acts chapter 2). 'Social justice' is now part of the political agenda that supports 'extreme distribution of wealth.' Originally the term just meant considering justice when attempting to address social problems.

[@Mrs.CGraves]

Yes. YOU personally should care for your community in areas of NEED. Not the Government or other people in charge of things. Jesus was a servant to show us to be servants.

[@FireflowerDancer]

@@Mrs.CGraves I agree. Motivated individuals are more powerful than programs, any day. I have met some wonderful people who work for the government also. It's kind of interesting to watch how things are growing where I live- we have a huge homeless problem and over the last several years, a bunch of grass roots organizations have sprung up to help them. These organizations are a mix of religious people, ex-addicts, and social workers.

[@jorgemorales1575]

Increase audio output 5db

[@christophersamuel4935]

Mark 10:29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to RECIEVE A HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH IN THIS PRESENT AGE: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields-along with persecutions-AND IN THE AGE TO COME ETERNAL LIFE.

[@desnock]

Except that many people suffer for their faith, especially those who are critiqued by "orthodoxy" (Pharisees in this context) for, you know, ministering to the poor (vs the way the church currently implies poverty is a moral failure). Some of the most anti-Christian people around are those who suggest they are Christian - and Christ called them evildoers. So there's that. The salvation portion is a concept for a child - scaring uneducated populaces that they have a magical reward or a magical punishment might have flown in that day, but Christ's ministry didn't rely on those topics, one can remove all that stuff that Paul (whose only exposure was a claimed vision) espoused. It's contradictory to Christ, who was critical of the Pharisees (which Paul was). I'm not saying folks can't have whatever magical thinking they feel they need, but when they create dogmas that hate, that oppose Christ, we cannot call them Christian logically or morally.

[@Mrs.CGraves]

Yes. He’s not a genie. He never said you’d be unburdened.. but that he will share your burden. He came thru Gods grace as the Ultimate sacrifice to usher in the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-19. We are all one in Christ. If there is a social issue that burdens a person, that person must act to glorify HIM.

[@desnock]

@@Mrs.CGraves You have it reversed. The act glorifies Him in the act, He doesn’t do it for adulation but love. That context makes all the difference and determines the perspectives of the inculcated vs the ministry.

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

@@desnock Are you a trans woman?

[@desnock]

@@The_Word_Is_The_Way No, I feel like you're obsessed with trans women though. Want to discuss why? Interested in transitioning? Or finding a real Christian church that loves you like God does instead of demonizing you because of their own sexual hangups?

[@michaelmartin3122]

Taxes or Government borrowing are not charity, and neither is advocating for in support for a Principality to perform such actions. Your own charity is charitable when you recognize that you’re giving what belongs to God.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Right? Jesus totally wants us to cut food assistance for starving children because the poor deserve to suffer and Jesus wants Christians to be the most callous, uncompassionate, vindictive jerks possible. Keep it up, I’m sure you’ll reverse the mass deconversions this way. 🙄

[@zizouxh9946]

at 37: 20. When he's referring to the 'poor', as in poor in spirit, this is a perspicacious comment. I..e people who understand their spiritual poverty , which could also be summed up succintly in Revelations 3: 17. ( verse that sums up a lot of society in general)

[@curiousgeorge555]

"The fallow ground of the poor would yield much food, but it is swept away through injustice". Proverbs 13:23

[@taowaycamino4891]

HELL-Oh! Dr. McDowell, Greetings. Jesus is King. I love Jesus or God because HE is WEIRD, CRAZY and DANGEROUS!!!! Rock n Roll, Jesus or GOD is the ETERNAL ROCK!!! We should(or must?) all be like Jesus/God. Do you like the AC/DC's album Highway to Hell? Not sure if you are into this kind of music. Good show and Godspeed!!! P.s. It would have been so great you interviewing Dr. Dallas Willard(maybe some day in heaven). RIP

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

I have great respect for Greg Koukl, and have found his incisive resources helpful with my students over the years. I had the pleasure of meeting him when he spoke in a seminary class of mine. He loves the gospel and is such a gift to the Church! I think that among many strong points. He is right that the Gospels focus on the forgiveness of sins as the primary mission of Jesus, and this is a needed corrective to ways that Jesus is co-opted by movements that denigrate the need for personally being forgiven through faith in Jesus. That said, I see two methodological flaws in Koukl's argument. His survey methodology is strong on breadth but weak on respecting the context of each text he cites. First, he seems to aim at a straw man in his catalogue of Gospels material. He repeatedly says something like, "Jesus never campaigns for the poor." That is easily proven. But does campaigning for the Kingdom of God communicate something unique to the poor? I am not aware of evangelical voices - who love the gospel of forgiveness of sins and think that it leads to deep concern for injustice in society - who would say Jesus campaigned for the poor (whatever Koukl means by that). Rather than campaigning for the poor, Koukl says that spiritual salvation "completely eclipses" the issues of poverty or oppression. As the next methodological flaw will demonstrate, the Gospels' use of the Old Testament presents a much more holistic picture of what must happen to one's view of injustice when people enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Christ. Before moving on to that flaw, though, two examples from Koukl serve this point. He said that the widow's offering in the temple was "a point about her liberality, it isn't something that has to do with the poor as a group." Poor widows as a group are almost certainly in view, because right before commending the widow (Luke 21:1-4), Jesus says, "Beware of the scribes ... who devour widows' houses" (Luke 20:46-47). A group of poor people were being steamrolled by the religious elite. And Jesus issues condemnation on that system while at the same time commending a woman doing her best for God within that system. Yes, Jesus came to forgive sins primarily, but no, that does not mean that his commendation of the widow's spirituality "completely eclipse[s]" a concern for mistreated groups (e.g., widows as a subset of Israelite society) ... instead, the forgiveness of sins opens his followers' eyes in compassion to those in need of advocacy. Jesus was smart enough to have a primary mission and secondary goals resulting from that mission. This can be seen in another of Koukl's examples. Koukl read Luke 19:10 to argue that Jesus came for the lost, not the poor. However, Jesus spoke those words about Zaccheus, for whom the first evidence of the forgiveness of sins (Luke 19:9) was the reversal of the economic exploitation he perpetrated as chief tax collector (Luke 19:8). The primary goal seems to have been forgiving Zaccheus when he believed, but this necessarily led to the reversal of economic injustice and giving "to the poor" (Luke 19:8). Again, Jesus possessed the missional dexterity to primarily offer the forgiveness of sins while also bringing about social change through the ones He forgave. As for the second methodological flaw, Koukl ignores the import of Old Testament quotations when he defines Jesus' mission. He mentions Jesus coming to shepherd His people (Matthew 2:6) as a definition of his mission that precludes an "SJW" mission. Matthew 2:6 quotes Micah 5:2. Why would God announce through Micah that a perfect Shepherd would come? Because Micah denounced bad shepherds, or,leaders (Micah 3:1), who oppressed people (Micah 2:2). The shepherd theme from Micah involves both justice (Micah 2:2; 3:1) and the forgiveness of sins (Micah 7:19). Koukl then says that, rather than coming to be an SJW, Jesus came to bring the Davidic kingdom to fulfillment. Is this kingdom described only in terms of spiritual salvation? Psalm 72 suggests that it also involved finally having a King who would do right by the poor (v. 2), needy (v. 12), and yes, the oppressed (v. 14). Koukl also cites John 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God - as evidence that Jesus came to take away sins and not do something deliberate for the oppressed. Yes, John said the Lamb would deal with the world's sins. But didn't the Passover Lamb also signal the release of oppressed Israelite slaves from Egypt? And then, finally, Koukl addressed Luke 4:18-19. He defines "poor" via Matthew 5:3 (poor in spirit, not economically poor), and defines "oppressed" via Acts 10:38 (oppressed by Satan, not people). These are useful cross-reference, but a more relevant place for defining these terms would be the texts Jesus quotes. Jesus seems to blend quotes from Isaiah 61:1-2 and Isaiah 58:6, the phrase from the latter reference being "to set at liberty those who are oppressed." Who is oppressed in Isaiah 58? Mistreated laborers (v. 3). Hungry people (v. 7). Homeless people (v. 7). I am not saying Jesus, or even Isaiah, never spiritualized terms like poor, oppressed, etc. But Jesus quoted a text about tangible poverty and oppression, and his way of interacting with the poor in Luke does not suggest that He distanced Himself from the kind of tangibly oppressed people referred to in Isaiah 58. Evangelical scholars recognize that Luke especially highlights Jesus' interaction with the poor and the outcast, and I don't see Koukl reckoning with this theme. A bare survey approach, which he employs, would not take into consideration OT allusions or the unique themes of the book being quoted. Koukl is right that we need to make sure people understand Jesus' offer of forgiveness through faith in Him when they are citing Christ for their agenda. Koukl is wrong, however, that this means Jesus bore no good news for the poor.

[@scottbaldridge165]

Thank you gor this comment! Have you written further on biblical social justice, or do have any further reading ideas! God bless... Thank you!

[@desnock]

Jesus does advocate for the poor in several areas: think of the Samaritan, the 2nd Commandment, the Beatitudes and very clearly in Matthew 25 "he who does this to the least of them does this to Me". Jesus ministry WAS INDEED specifically and wholly about the downtrodden (Jews of the day in a Roman world were seen as 2nd class citizens). The idea that has been espoused as magical thinking by post-cult Christian apologetics is just conflating that He was talking about the fall of Rome, not some magical apocalypse. He certainly DID espouse charity and love to the "poor" (economically, not just spiritually), so I think the whole conversation is based in confirmation bias that confuses a sense of philosophical and cultural apologetics, which makes the whole "SJW" (us vs them) an exercise in ignorance that ignores Christ at every turn.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

@@scottbaldridge165 That's kind of you, brother. I wrote one piece that touches on racial reconciliation, but not necessarily biblical social justice overall. If you google "structure allusion psalm 106," you can probably find it on academia, but you might need to create an account. In terms of recommended reading, as a white man I have found African American Christian perspectives to be the most helpful in approaching Scripture in ways to which I'm less accustomed (having grown up viewing the Bible mainly as Koukl argues in this video, interested primarily or exclusively in spiritual salvation). Esau McCaulley's "Reading While Black: African American BIblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope" is tremendous, in my opinion.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

@@desnock Thank you for this insightful reply! Regarding confirmation bias and "us vs them," I agree. This argument by Koukl strkes me as misspent energy by an otherwise brilliant apologist.

[@scottbaldridge165]

Thank you I will look into you article and these books suggested! God Bless!

[@godthecreatoryhvh681]

Hello to all of you. I wonder where you guys get that information. Please be sure about your information. By the way good show. Is mission is to help you passing through the apocalypse. Actually it's going good. Even if don't seem to. A great week to all of you. The Creator 😎

[@Pipers_hooman]

So many in these comments apparently got offended when THEIR OWN ideologies and political side felt attacked and never finished listening. He ABSOLUTELY did talk about giving to the poor and part of the issue is the government taking that role and the abuses that come with it. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not biblical truth. Stay humble, align with the Lord and not just your political side of the aisle. Because you don't like what was stated doesn't mean it's not biblical fact. Humble yourselves and finish listening with your ears open, whether offended or not.

[@bobjones9725]

The negative comments are not about politics. They are about scriptural interpretation. Greg has twisted the scripture to fit a narrative that is not existent in the scripture. Read the Magnificat in Luke 2. Read Jesus' own words as he reads the scroll about his mission in Luke 4. Read about how people will be judged by the Son of Man in Matthew 25. It simply is not possible to take these seminal passages and explain away Jesus' mission to the poor and oppressed. Greg is taking away from the scripture and needs to be called out on it.

[@desnock]

Very good advice to repeat to yourself and your particular views on the subject. (worry about the log in thine own eye). Just because you don't like that Jesus was indeed a "social justice warrior" in the moral and worldly sense shouldn't offend those who are caught up in the magical thinking. So maybe a little more listening to other's points of view, eh, Denise?

[@desnock]

@@bobjones9725 Indeed, correct. The irony of people suggesting "don't impose your POV on the Bible" whilst imposing THEIR POV on the Bible and somehow having the audacity to ignore the advice to and for themselves. I don't think there is benefit in not pointing out this irony/hypocrisy, even if it chafes those who feel the need to worry about the speck in another's eye.

[@Pipers_hooman]

@@desnock "worry about the log in your own eye " is a response that even non believers use out of context. Try harder. Seeing all your responses on here to others proves exactly what I stated. Your inability to humble yourself to what the Bible says instead of what you feel is an issue that absolutely does need called out by other believers. It seems you use scripture to get others to fall in line with what you think and feel. (Out of context of course and somehow twisted to mean what you want it to mean). You're awful angry at a lot of people who are mature Christians and you use tactics that fall along the lines of spiritual abuse to try and sway others to agree with you. I won't respond.

[@Pipers_hooman]

@@bobjones9725 no Bob. Listen to the whole thing and ask Him to open your ears and heart so you can hear it in it's entirety. You stopped at some point which is clear by your responses to me and others on here.

[@machellovelivelife658]

18 minutes in, and I have yet to hear either one define "social justice warrior". Everyone can have a different understanding of what it means/implies, and we could be talking passed each other. "Social" just implies people, no one is advocating for, campaigning for, "showing love" for, defending, etc etc, toaster ovens lol. "Justice" has to do with correcting wrong, and that word (as well as "Just") is all throughout the bible. "Warrior" is someone who fights, and not necessarily with physical weapons. Yet when those words are put together, the phrase "SJW" is usually used dismissively towards ANYone who starts talking about "social issues". On one hand, I understand there are "activists" whose approach work against what they claim to want to achieve, but on the other hand, I believe people label persons "SJW" in a dismissive, stick their head in the sand, "everything's wonderful" kind of way, and don't listen charitably. It's dignifying to be heard, dehumanizing to be dismissed. So, though I know whom people are referring to when they say "SJWs" or "wokeness", that is, those who are well intended in their efforts to right past and current wrongs and advocate/arrange for a world that allows/creates human flourishing for all, yet their approach is an overcorrection that leads to tribalism, more division and less grace, I don't think that actual word/phrase "social justice" should be used as a negative thing. In this political climate, anyone who starts talking about advocating for communities or "social issues", is immediately slapped with the label of "SJW" or "woke" and not engaged in conversation for understanding. I'll continue listening to the interview. (And no, I'm not accusing Greg or Sean of being dismissive. Sean is the epitome of listening charitably to understand, and unafraid to hear out someone he disagrees with.)

[@curiousgeorge555]

Well said.

[@desnock]

I would say that they are both being dismissive, and I've listened to what you have. The irony is they don't understand their own hypocrisy - to wit they point out the various Jesus' through the lens of different groups, somehow implying that THEIR (evangelical) group is the one that gets Jesus right. Pretty silly and a little egotistical and with not a little confirmation bias as you so eloquently talked about. We have to be careful to realize that these folks are trying to figure it out too. They aren't speaking for Jesus and their theology can be pretty bad (I think it is) if it is trying to suggest that THEIR picture of Jesus is somehow inherently better or more "right" than another's when that is just objectively not true. We see the sin in these folks (in their theology and their personal walk), not the salvation of Jesus' ministry. And yet they will worry about the speck in another's eye vs the log in their own. I appreciate Sean's attempt to have conversations, I think that's a GREAT thing. I just wish a little more humility in realizing that his own dogmatism might indeed be a problem that takes away from Jesus' Word.

[@JoJo-qy2ob]

I brilliantly point, thanks for making it. SJW seems like a dismissive term. For me MLK did act like Jesus, I also think we ALL have our own bias when looking at scripture and I think he should've mentioned this.

[@zizouxh9946]

@@desnock well ok. do you have a link to your videos, interviews, or other media, where you are giving your views(?) Any books you wrote that are sold and well recommended by other believers ( Like the book Tactics). Any tangible proof of your actions to further the kingdom?

[@desnock]

@@zizouxh9946 Questions like that bespeak an intellectual laziness that is not useful, further, the opportunity to expose oneself to alternative views is not difficult. I would suggest you do your own research to avoid any particular bias you may think I hold. Ignoring the alternative views because I won't coddle you is, I suggest, a patently childish choice. To rely on others telling me how to think seems the absolute opposite of what Christ instructs, but definitely speaks to the prevalence of dogma and idol worship that is specifically denoted as sin in Scripture. IF you consider Scripture valid OUTSIDE of dogmatic irrationality taught by less than trustworthy sources like Greg, and various apologists and denominations. Christians must stand up against these, at the end of the day, evil views. "What you do for the least of them, you do for me" (Jesus said that) is all that has to be said to oppose Greg's tribal anti-2nd Commandment demented POV. To wit, views on Jesus and Scripture are commonplace, and the DIFFERENCE is one that doesn't take a tremendous amount of intellectual or moral honesty. Do we see sin in the Church? Of course? A church that didn't admit it's sin is no house of the Lord. Are you aware of various denominations history of sexual abuse (of clergy upon others, including children), greed, murder and torture? Apologists that suggest that it's the CHURCH (which is fallible) vs Christ is no adherent to Christian perspective. In terms of the speck vs the log, why would you need someone else to critically think for you in terms of what Jesus meant? Is your belief dependent upon the Pharisee? What did Jesus say about the Pharisee and their converts? (simple google search if you don't read Scripture regularly will suffice to find the answer). What books are you suggesting are needed to support the idea of humility vs dogma (again, the Pharisees come to mind) where Jesus is particularly clear how and why their perspective is damned, and one merely has to use their discernment (as Christ instructed in terms of the tree bearing fruit) to compare/contrast the power-hungry institutions (because power corrupts inevitably) WITH said Pharisees who were indeed the priestly caste that Jesus critiqued. Greg's perspective is a bastardization, a Pharisee's view that seeks to remove the ministry from Jesus to extol magical thinking. Can you provide a significant coherent rebuttal or not? IF not, that's fine. Learning that one's own biases may not be grounded in anything valid is one way to go from a child(ish thinker) to an adult (thinker). The irony one would ask for evidence to "further the kingdom" bespeaks that those who are inculcated refuse to address evidence whatsoever if it contradicts their biases. Critical thinking, through at least reading contrarian perspectives (if only to build a better argument), and adulting are what are missing in today's cult/Church. As far away from Christ as He predicted that many would claim to be followers of His, and he called them "evildoer". Why did He say this? It's an important and deep topic that I wish you well in researching IF you think it's necessary. (One would think anyone considering themself Christian would find that compelling enough reason.) God Bless.

[@jon0328]

👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@FireflowerDancer]

Jesus had no prejudice towards either rich or poor. But he did say that being rich made it harder to get into heaven: "Hasn't God chosen those who are poor in the world's eyes to be rich in faith?" (James 2:5) and of course the well-known "It's easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle."

[@kaylajentes862]

By this same systematic view, you could also conclude most of Paul’s books in the new testament were extra biblical and Jesus did not support these ideas. One major view that Paul pushes that Jesus never supported was that the gentiles were included in the mission of Jesus… therefore, if you take this same tunnel vision approach to the gospels, you will find that most of our theology is based on Paul and not on Jesus. You can either chose to limit your entire faith to the 4 gospels or you can look to the totality of scripture. If you read the Old Testament the way you read the gospels you will find that Jesus very much cared about justice. Additionally, I disagree with Greg’s discussion that progressives view that something is fundamentally wrong if someone is poor. Of course, the poverty itself is not the issue. The power dynamic that leads to abuse is the issue. The problem is that more often than not, when large quantities of people are vulnerable, the powerful will take advantage. The connection between money and power is not unique to Marxism lol. Capitalism uses money for power all the time. However, it is the exploitation of the poor that is the problem. Most progressives will fundamentally agree with this. However, I have yet to see an example of someone who is poor and not a victim of exploitation by the rich and powerful in one way or another. You show me one example of that, and I might believe you.

[@lauriehansel1207]

Sean organizes his books more than Greg -haha. I almost thought you were in the same room! :)

[@SeanMcDowell]

😂😂😂

[@jamesbertram7925]

it is true that the main purpose of the Sent Son of God is to save souls from their sins, but when we come to the eternal Judgement of the living Nations in Matthew chapter 25v31-46, those who go away into everlasting punishment are those who fail to care for His poor and persecuted Brothers, the hungry the thirsty the naked , the homeless and the sick, and while we do not read that His Brothers are the poor of all mankind, the principle of caring for the poor is fundamental to eternal life, in Matthew chapter 25v46, and in Luke chapter 6v20, we read blessed are the poor , not the poor in Spirit like Matthew, and when you make a feast, don't invite the rich invite the poor etc

[@user-er6pt7uc6g]

Jesus was caught unaware? Twisted

[@LonestarEventPro]

Dr King was the most effective in talking about a Social Justice Jesus. Because of God's work through him countless Christian schools were created in the 60's and 70's and evangelicals became ultra conservative. To be clear, they hated Dr King that much. They still hate his message while the profess a love of what God accomplished through him. It's very two faced. I grew up in this environment and took me too long to put it all together. They've no shame. Jesus is much more than what they believe and more than worthy of us to follow.

[@michaelmalaki7176]

A lot of people talking over the each other in the comment section. I think a lot of people just get triggered with social Justice - those who support and oppose. You are not reading it listening to understand. You are hearing to respond.

[@bobjones9725]

I noticed someone say Bonhoeffer. I couldn't help think about how Bonhoeffer would respond to Greg. I think he would say Gregs view of Jesus' mission is about cheap grace. "Cheap grace means grace sold on the marketplace like cheapjacks' wares...Grace is represented as the church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost!"

[@irlc1254]

Is it just me, but some of your videos are too quiet? They are such great resources, please could you up the volume so that they are easier to hear?

[@CJFCarlsson]

Some people want a small Jesus to run their errands.

[@aimeesnider2541]

God the Father: Our Judge, Jesus Christ: Our Savior, The Holy Spirit: Guides us to all things good in our daily lives, which naturally includes caring for those around us. Jesus shows us that life is about way more then this earthly life. Rather, it is about the Heavenly Kingdom. The Holy Spirit helps us get there.

[@markanthony3667]

Indeed, Jesus did not come for the righting of wrongs in this world. He himself, when he was reviled, reviled not. "Take up your cross (of shame)," he said, "and follow me." However, his mission as a man is not our mission as a church. And through the church he adds to his mission when he was on earth. Think of it this way. The foreign ministers hash out the deal, the heads of state meet to sign the memorandum of understanding for the press, then the various government entities carry out the vision thereof. Jesus is our head of state and the church in its various forms and departments comprises the government entities. We have a responsibility to enact and ensure social justice and so forth.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Oh good. The wealthy people in charge of everything have told us that Jesus doesn’t want you to question the wealthy people in charge of everything. I guess that’s settled, then.

[@roncantrell7238]

Don't forget Luke 4:18-21.

[@DogDocLou]

Doesn’t Luke 4:20 expressly say that that has been fulfilled? Therefore (in this specific sense) it is not our mission, Jesus has already accomplished it.

[@FLIPPER1439]

Hi 👋 I just subbed 👍. I’m from FLORIDA🌴☀️ A preacher I was watching on utube referred you. 👉Can you tell me if you know 👉Jan Markell, Pastor JD Farag, Evangelist Tiff Shuttleworth, or David Lynn who has a Street ministry? I think he is the one who referred you to his listeners. I just subbed to him this year as I saw him preaching on the Street’s..of Canada 🇨🇦 Are you with any particular Denomination? Thank you. Jacque

[@SeanMcDowell]

Cool! I’m familiar with them but don’t know them personally. I am Southern baptist, but teach at Biola university

[@MatthewMorizio]

Interesting conversation. Thank you for sharing. God's redemptive mission in Jesus Christ... - Redeem humanity from bondage of Satan... sin. - Restore humanity to the image of God... righteousness. Jesus, Savior, not merely this-world problem-solver, but spiritual redeemer and renewed. This doesn't preclude God's overall concern with the socially disenfranchised, who are to be handled with mercy and compassion. Jesus' ongoing pneumatic ministry (thru the Body) isn't to perfect the world (Triumphalism), but to check the world, restrain sin, and call all humanity (individually) out of the this-world system of darkness into the kingdom of light. Lk.7:22 "And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR have good news preached to them." Jas.1:27 "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world."

[@revdbsa]

Did someone ask about the verse that talks about Jesus only 'knowing' those who clothed the naked and visited those in prison etc? I'm not arguing against this excellently presented topic and I wholeheartedly agree but what are we to make of this uncomfortable reference? Thanks

[@theologymatters5127]

I want to take the apologetics course remotely😔

[@kzk15]

Hi Sean, thank you for the wonderful work you do. Could you recommend some Christian books on justice, especially vis-a-vis the social justice paradigm and the Marxist conception of justice/oppression? Thanks a lot!

[@SeanMcDowell]

My pleasure! The best is CONFRONTING INJUSTICE WITHOUT COMPROMISING TRUTH by Williams.

[@kzk15]

@@SeanMcDowell , thank you for such a prompt repy. I am relatively new to your channel, tuning in from Ethiopia. But your father's book, "More than a Carpenter", was the first book I ever read on apologetics side of things back when I was a teenager. I will check out the book you recommended. Keep up the good work!

[@SteveSmith-kd9if]

​@@SeanMcDowellThere's no way out that satan system for any of you tard zombies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My (the real make believe Jesus) mission was to send this satan zombie earth to Hell, and that's going to happen real soon, so don't make any long term plans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@bobjones9725]

Greg couldn't find a single verse where Jesus had any mission to help the poor. Well, when you "help" Jesus out by making all references to Jesus preaching to, helping, or blessing the poor as REALLY meaning poor in spirit of course you can't find a single verse where Jesus had a mission to the poor. Never mind that the whole context of Luke 4 where Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah is about economic injustice even mentioning the Year of Jubilee. Yes the primary mission of Jesus was coming to save us "spiritually.". But acting like Evangelicals who say "social justice is part of Jesus' mission" are completely misguided because the Gospels don't really talk about Jesus having a mission to help the poor and oppressed, is ludicrous. It is using a current political position to "help" Jesus say what you wish the text said.

[@christianthinker2536]

SJWs don't care about the poor though. They don't care if jobs are offshored or if housing prices are too high. They just care about the rainbow flag and hate poor people if they are white, male or any non minority category.

[@bobjones9725]

@@christianthinker2536 I'm not defending all SJWs. Some are just like you described as are some Christians. I am saying let's use scripture to give an accurate account of how Jesus and the Gospels viewed his mission to the world and particularly the poor and oppressed.

[@richhazeltine1413]

So much bad teaching! So much bad doctrine! Jesus himself said to the religious leaders of his day: " you read the scriptures thinking in them you find eternal life, when in fact they are about me. " More or less a quote. Because of this I, like Paul of Tarsus by the way, reject scriptures that do not show me Jesus.

[@laugustam]

Absolutely!

[@scapps8173]

Thank you. I am trying to find a way to say what you just said. Most SJW people are in this for themselves....not for the poor or needy. It is to make themselves feel good. If you really care you just quietly do what you can where you can.

[@francisakhionbare9297]

I know it is wishful thinking but i pray we one day get away from these church distinctions of being progressive and conservative, i share views from both so called groups so what does that make people like me. Either ways I understand what is being spoken and I agree that the purpose of Jesus was to be a Lamb and associate us with his Father and secure us in his kingdom for which no expereince or earthly circumstances could compare to, I however sense that we are looking at things; law and all, from the standpoint of a monarchy System...is there a context that can be presented for democracy where a representative government is in place. I also don't know if Greg considered that people can become poor from a deliberate oppressive system that sectionizes wealth and part of Justice could be to right those wrongs from the institutions down and that is not charity but justice. When a democratic Governement obliges to feed the poor, could that be a government(probably Influenced by Christians within it) that feel that it is a christian duty to take from its (collective purse) to address the nutrition needs of those that need it, why does he only qualify it as Marxist.(it is Okay for our taxes to go military defense of our sovereignty but when it goes to feeding others among us it Marxist? Scripture says when the righteous are in power the people rejoice, that is governent not individuals. Some people would have never entered certain schools if the Government did not decide to create the ability to and that is addressing wrongs from the past not charity. I feel Sean should please nuance this conversation a bit more just because the things said here today demands it. We have to look at the systems of government that affected the time of Jesus and the disciples who never verbally attempted to stop slavery and advocated good slave and master ethics...I feel what's missing from our conversations is the government systems. Please help me

[@willielee5253]

@Social Justice, how was the Wild, Wild West won, by Law and alone???

[@akindelebankole8080]

Very interesting. I was very upset at The ex gay woman who spoke with Sean a while ago, and is now an advocate against LGBTQIA, the persecuted group that she was a member of for a long time. Her self hate comes out in her wanting to destroy the oppressed group that she previously beinged to. The irony of it all. . Although i was upset at the ex gay, now wife of a pastor as well as with Sean, I now realize that Sean and his guests are basically speaking to people who are already believers and they (Sean & guests) are trying to ensure Christians stay in the fold and are following strict biblical teachings and social admonishments of the Bible to inflict harm on others. From the get go, it is clear that Greg's thesis is to make Jesus a retributive God, more than an all loving "lovey dovey" God. And Greg's goal is to encourage militarism in the thoughts, beliefs and physical responses of Christians when it comes to Christian predetermined social concerns. Vis-a-vis LGBTQIA, women's rights, brown/black immigration, separation of church & state, climate concerns, evolution, black American history, atheists' concerns about biblical enjoinment to slavery, biblical depiction of swords into pregnant women's bellies, and other social issues that the Christian Church wants to keep narrative of and control over, in order to maintain power. I agree that many non Christians looking in from outside the Christian belief, would be appalled hearing the manipulative Xenophobic rhetoric of these apologists and the followers. Rather than get upset as i have been about the wickedness of many religious beliefs and in particular Christian beliefs (in our case in the West), i believe philosophers, skeptics, logicians and critical thinkers must continue to exact pressure with the demand of scientific and factual evidence of Christian claims of "harm to society" for the Rights and freedoms that the Christian Church and Islam want to strip away from minority groups. In this unique age of global technology, we most likely only have this moment to expose these religious inside conversations and critically analyze them in order to keep them benign to the real lives of ordinary people. There is no greater work to do than to protect all our rights and freedoms. We should all be very cautious of these very real religious dangerous intentions. These folks are not playing around, and they are smooth taking rights and freedoms strippers.

[@pinheirov]

Looks like one of those aging apps. Sean is koukl in a few years! 😂 great talk guys! Just kidding around!

[@ridingblues]

I wish they would just get to the point sometimes.

[@SeanMcDowell]

I understand your concern. Part of what I’m trying to do is teach people a careful process of how we got to where we were.