Optimistic View of A.I in TNG vs Pessimistic Attitude of Star Trek Picard & Discovery

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[@Koshiro2k3]

"Not only did they rip off Mass Effect, they ripped off the *bad* one!" - Rich Evans

[@returnedtomonkey8886]

Andromeda or Me3?

[@MEEEPMEEEPMEEEPMEEEP]

​@@returnedtomonkey8886 Was there an evil AI in Andromeda? SAM wasn't evil, and the AI in that one side mission was just annoyed and wanted to die

[@Koshiro2k3]

@@returnedtomonkey8886 Pretty sure Rich meant ME3, with the heavy handed "synthetic life vs. biological life" ending plot.

[@DangerLevel10]

I saw Rich Evans name and I clapped!

[@RonPaul42069]

@@DangerLevel10 I KNOW WHO THAT IS

[@khamankhoma8232]

TNG on synthetics: "You get out what you put in." STP on synthetics: "Remember those Reaper things from Mass Effect?"

[@ge2719]

Bwaaaaaaaaa

[@Ebalosus]

Yeah if they were going to do another robot racism story, they could have at the very least made it make sense.

[@kentonbaird1723]

Nothing in Nu trek is original.

[@LIONtib]

Ah, yes, "Reapers", we have dismissed that claim

[@patrickfrost9405]

Does this unit have a soul?

[@illustriouschin]

Alex Kurtzman is not a sentient life form.

[@snakeenjoyingacanofbeans5219]

At the very least not sapient

[@hundwyn7530]

A bit antisemitic, hm???

[@samuelnathan312]

@@hundwyn7530 What? His ethnicity is irrelevant. He could be blue eyed pure Aryan* perfection that Nazis dreamed of and he would still be shit. *Aryan is an ethnic term that belongs Indo-Iranian shared culture. The people are directly related to Europeans but the term is not. A pure Aryan would be unmixed person from the people who eventually split and went to Iran and India and so cannot exist today.

[@snakeenjoyingacanofbeans5219]

Star Trek's future of humanity bettering themselves for its own sake is very Fascist. Fascism is vitalistic and truly progressive, therefore it is logical that someone from the species of Alex Kurtzman reacts in disgust and fear at it, and wants to see it destroyed.

[@illustriouschin]

@@hundwyn7530 He proved this with his actions, not his racial handicap.

[@TheSuperQuail]

Remember that episode of TOS where Kirk tortures that guy to death just for a laugh? Yeah me neither, but it seems Alex Kurtzman does.

[@snakeenjoyingacanofbeans5219]

NuTrek villains are Hunters tier villains. I’d take Yosemite Sam more seriously.

[@TheSuperQuail]

@Lady Wanderer You made my day

[@ShadowSonic2]

@Lady Wanderer Spock thought Rape was funny in TOS, you fool.

[@vishaansingh1019]

Discovery is awful but I'm pretty certain the people in that scene are evil and get killed by the heroes later

[@n3rdy11]

@Sasuntidictous Rhoireiphapos What a totally not weird thing to bring up about a person?

[@christopherjones5446]

They are pessimistic about AI because they are pessimistic about everything. They incorrectly label TNG as this sunny, happy utopia where there was no conflict for drama and Star Trek today has to “reflect our times as it always has”. First, TNG had conflict even among the Enterprise-D crew. But they rose above it instead of wallowed in it. Second, Star Trek at its best was never a reflection of current times, but a reaction to it. Instead of most entertainment, that looked at the world as it is and asked “Why?”, Star Trek looked at the world as it could be and asked “Why not?”. The current showrunners wanted to have their own TV-MA prestige show with lots of “shades of grey” characters ala GOT or The Expanse, but wanted to latch their ideas to an existing IP to get a built in audience out of laziness.

[@engineer9941]

This is so true, the wanted the creative freedoms granted from they're own ip, but they also wanted the economic benefits of a pre existing IP with a pre built fan base because they were too lazy and too impatient to put the work in

[@engineer9941]

@John Galt I wholeheartedly agree with you, the simple fact is the second any story is created it has canon, this canon is easily documented and followed, all previous star treks had a "series bible" for that purpose, I doubt it would've been hard for them to get hold of these books or create one by watching what has come before and asking previous production staff for advice. As for feeling restricted or limited by this what they really mean is they want to do they're own thing they're way and they cant do that while following canon because they lack the vision to find a way to implement it within the established kimitations

[@engineer9941]

@Marcelo Antônio dont get me wrong, I dislike trump, I dislike his presidency, but his winning has nothing to do with what is happening with star trek. And this whole "trump won" thing has simply become a way of shifting actual constructive critiques to the side lines, it is over used and now means absolutely nothing, star trek is bad because the team currently making it have an agenda but dont know what they are doing, plain and simple

[@tylermcnamara8794]

@@engineer9941 Amen. Unfortunately though, we live in an age where too many people love sharing their opinions but rarely listen to others. Legitimate criticism is deflected at every opportunity (especially so in Hollywood) and conflated with trolling because these people have built echo chambers for themselves, full of nepotistic hacks who pat each other on the back for their mediocrity, all because they can share in their mutual disgust for certain flavors of humanity. It'll be a long time (if ever) before we see humanity actually start to measure up to Gene Roddenberry's vision.

[@engineer9941]

@@tylermcnamara8794 it's a real shame too. Whilst ever deflecting of issues is a thing we can never truly deal with things in a constructive way, many ideology movements have chosen the deflection route and it's just led to a weird status where movements such as feminism and equality have now become for want of a better word infiltrated with people who do negative effect actions that harm the movements they're supposed to be fighting for. Feminism was never supposed to be about missandry, the civil rights movement was never supposed to be about table flip racism and it's a damn shame because it casts a bad light on true feminists and true equality believers

[@danielengfer]

After watching Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard, I wish the synthetics had succeeded in destroying all humanoid life in the galaxy.

[@ge2719]

Major grin should do an edit of that, where the plan fails and shoji lets the ai tentacles kill everyone.

[@superlegomaster55]

I wished that too

[@danielengfer]

Graeme Evans Major Grin, I agree with this suggestion wholeheartedly.

[@CommanderM117]

same when Klingon wanted to instigate a war was rooting for the Klingon after federation followed through with that ploy

[@the81kid]

It's the sign of a terrible scriptwriter, a terrible story, when you want to supposed villain to win.

[@garym6315]

The fact that they have lines like "Dude creeps me out" in Star Trek is all you need to know. Oh and the lazy ass costume department making everyone wear modern day clothes.

[@ananousous]

Tbf, "dude creeps me out" sounds like something Tom Paris has said before

[@glass_knuckles]

@@ananousous nobody said Voyager was good ;P

[@ananousous]

@@glass_knuckles touché

[@Ac3OfWands]

@@ananousous Yeah but at least Tom had an in-universe reason for that, since he was an aficionado of the 20th century, so him using modern lingo made sense - and other characters usually reacted to what he said by asking wtf he was saying.

[@n3rdy11]

YUM YUM

[@KingOfMadCows]

The problem is that the writers don't understand anything about artificial intelligence. The whole issue with synths was extremely poorly written. The show established that Starfleet believed the Mars attack happened due to a coding error. Then they made the ban weirdly specific to synths and didn't address the issue with AI's in general. That doesn't make any sense. So they didn't ban synths because they thought the androids were becoming sentient and rebelling. They banned synths because of a flaw in the programming. But any computer can have catastrophic programming flaws. A starship's computer can have a malfunction that causes its warp core to overload and blow up. Ultimately, the synth ban didn't really have anything to do with AI's.

[@BertoxolusThePuzzled]

Star Trek TNG: gives synthetics personhood Star Trek Picard: takes it away and bans them... Rofl.

[@ShadowSonic2]

You do realize that they already banned Genetic Engineering in Trek? A synthetic ban was the next step.

[@glass_knuckles]

@@ShadowSonic2 the JAG ruling in "the measure of a man" should have created jurisprudence that sentient AI cannot be property. Banning sentient A.I. after creating tons of examples of it is just copying Blade Runner for no good reason.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@glass_knuckles That didn't stop that Admiral from trying to take Data's daughter, or the Federation from using EMHs as miners. This was fully in line with their growing hostility towards Synthetics.

[@glass_knuckles]

​@@ShadowSonic2 It seems more like an arrogant use of technology without understanding it is actually a life form, than hostility. The AI slaves is a problem inherited from old Trek, sure, but STP had the opportunity to rectify that by elucidating how the Federation could legally justify Robert Picardo-grams as slave labor and it doesn't- or really say anything about the workers that are apparently based off of Data in the six episodes I watched.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@glass_knuckles Because the message was that using them in that way was WRONG. And they end the ban at the end of the season anyways.

[@samuelbedsole5089]

The differences between TNG and Picard' s take on artificial life comes down the purposes of each series. TNG was used to explore philosophical and moral concepts that could better human society, while Picard is just your standard run of the mill sci-fi thriller whose only toes to Trek is by name only.

[@sixstanger00]

To call Picard "generic" and "mass produced" would be paying it a compliment.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Oh grow up, you're just pissed that Picard wasn't 10 episodes of Picard being this superhero who could do no wrong and everything was all wine and roses.

[@samuelbedsole5089]

@@ShadowSonic2 Picard wasn't always a hero in TNG, and that's what i liked about him. While i admired his ideals and adherence to principle in TNG, he had his moments of questionable actions such as letting an entire world die or allowing a species to continue to be subservient drug addicted slaves to another when in both cases they could've done something to help. Picard wasn't a super hero, he was a human. A human who was just as capable of majorly fucking up, but used these lows to build himself up in later episodes in the show to become the best man he could be. Also, if you've seen TNG thing were hardly ever wine and roses.

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@samuelbedsole5089 Then there shouldn't be so much whining about this series and what it does. But then again, Trek fans have been hating their own stuff since 1999.

[@samuelbedsole5089]

@@ShadowSonic2 You can't just take a show whose formula has been tried and true for the better part of 60 years, throw it out the window and expect fan of the franchise not to take issue. Heck DS9, which I feel diverged the most from Trek, managed to stay tonaly consistent with the rest of the series. Picard, however, does not. Not to mention thd libertors it took with the lore.

[@ustrekkie92]

"To seek out new life, well there it sits....waiting...to eventually kill us all because....mystery box?!?!?!?"

[@knowur10sand18s]

Sad when a show 30 years older does a better job at explaining theoretical technology than today. It's literally just "magic" or if they do "explain" it they just add the word quantum to it lol

[@Dancestar1981]

Titto 530 because they have no idea

[@danielengfer]

They’re dumbing down the show for the masses. ST:P is a dystopian thriller with a Star Trek skin.

[@grantavakjan6019]

@@Dancestar1981 It's more like the reflection of today's society .. And at the same time the attempt to make Star Trek accessible to broader audience which melted the original form into populistic soup of odd space action without any bigger idea behind it

[@grantavakjan6019]

@Jimmy De'Souza maybe, but they at least tried to make it sound like it makes sense

[@grantavakjan6019]

@Jimmy De'Souza that's not true.. They had actually scientific consultants

[@bryal7811]

My god the whiplash moving between the two shows. Also poor Worf... *Worf:* "Captain, it's risky and here's my objectively clear and understandably logical reasoning" *Data:* "Captain-" *Picard:* "I agree Data, it's worth the risk"

[@ananousous]

Can never forget that time Worf told them how stupid it was to send Geordi onto an alien spaceship He even gave them several other ways they could help the aliens without putting their Chief engineer at risk for getting kidnapped Only wish Worf was vindicated more often

[@Mastikator]

Worf was a punching bag in TNG, sad. At least DS9 treated him with respect

[@t.estable3856]

@@Mastikator DS9 Did O'Brien and Worf justice after being treated so roughly by TNG.

[@tree_alone]

@@ananousous riker was captain tho, i think even picrard would have listened to worf with those packleds

[@captmkg]

If the A.I. in ST:Pukard was so determined to end organic life, why do they continue to exist looking like their creators? Shouldn't they have stripped that away in order to become their own, unique, superior exterior? Oh wait, I'm sorry, my apologies. I was thinking again, silly me.

[@MajorGrin]

because they LOVE to play soccer . they love it so much that even after they decided to kill all life they'd still let a human walk freely into their colony if he plays it

[@SylvanasWindrunnerResurrected]

It seriously gives me a headache when I start to think about all the plot holes and inconsistencies. Now I just settle for laughing at Grin videos.

[@Rabbithole8]

Yes, the A.I. continue to look like their inferior creators, and human creators make A.I. look human just to creep out their fellow humans. Unlike current research into robotics (for the past 20 years or so?) and how humans react to robot faces etc, if there is an uncanny valley effect, the human scientists in STP place human looking androids among humans without determining if they would cause discomfort and cultivate negative attitudes. They love science! Even the human scientists would have chosen a different construction, one that evokes pleasant feelings and affection (make the A.I. cute, for example), rather than unnecessarily making them human looking. The A.I. have no reason to continue looking humanoid and humans have no reason to make A.I. look human.

[@LNo-re7sk]

Yah like in the matrix.

[@KingOfMadCows]

The 2004 Battlestar Galactica dealt with this issue: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZC4h4OCfaaCd7s For all its flaws, the 2004 BSG had a lot of amazing moments and dealt with some very heavy moral and philosophical issues. And even though it was incredibly dark and violent, it's more Star Trek than the newer Treks.

[@sulphurous2656]

The episode with the nanites is one of my favourite episodes of TNG, idealistic as it may be. If only real life could be as consistently wholesome as fiction can be.

[@MajorGrin]

I love TNG for exploring actual sci-fi ideas in an interesting way and also having that optimistic approach of making peace with the enemies and settling the problems diplomatically . it's one of the reasons I think TNG is the best Trek show of them all

[@Jason_Wilhelm]

@@MajorGrin that is why the undiscovered country is one of the best star trek films made.

[@2bituser569]

Major Grin I wish they would revisit the nanite world and see what has evolved there. Would the Borg assimilate a race of nanites since they seem to be after integrating tech into the biological form to perfect it. In tbobw’s Data was called obsolete in the new order.

[@cryalot378]

not only the nanites but the episode "The measure of a man" was freaking oscar worthy

[@Fish1701A]

And the difference between an utopia and a dystopia is Kurtzman, for Star Trek that is.

[@hundwyn7530]

A bit antisemitic Also *a utopia, unless you’re saying “ootopia”

[@Johnny-rx4hs]

@@hundwyn7530 Why is it antisemitic?

[@Jagent]

@@Johnny-rx4hs It's because they made a good point that can't be defeated with facts, so the only avenue left is to attack their character.

[@urbanmidnight1]

@@hundwyn7530 Wtaf?

[@hundwyn7530]

John Galt Armenians aren’t G-d’s chosen people, obviously 🙄

[@amstrad79b]

Data is more of a human than some of the people I've met!

[@t.estable3856]

Data was the most human person on that ship sometimes, always curious and honestly seeking new information for the good of everyone.

[@elusiveeye1424]

Remember when Star Trek was about an optimistic view of the future and alien life? Even during the Dominion War, the Federation tried to make peaceful contact with the other races in the Gamma Quadrant. I'm getting sick of this grim nihilism most modern sci-fi is obsessed. The Expanse did it well, but modern Star Trek is just mean spirited for the sake of it.

[@Dancestar1981]

Elusive Eye millennials have no idea what made Star Trek great

[@engineer9941]

@@Dancestar1981 I'm a millennial and I agree with elusive eye, it's not the generation that is the problem, these pessimistic nihilists have always been with us, the only difference is that they have power now, and it's just ruining everything

[@4llfor1]

@@Dancestar1981 I'm a millennial and I tried to watch STD... I hated it... But then I watched the Orville and loved it. Then I binged all of TNG and am currently halfway through the third season of DS9. Loved/loving 'em both. Elusive eye is right, it's the fact that these new shows are so pessimistic and fearful of the future. I mean, one of the characters in Picard is "poor" and lives in a shack when that goes against everything Star Trek stood for. Earth was supposed to have become a paradise, instead it's a dystopia.

[@ananousous]

@@Dancestar1981 **sips**

[@glass_knuckles]

@@Dancestar1981 excuse you, I was raised on TNG.

[@the-quintessenz]

Again: Just imagine Voyager needed 30 years longer for their voyage home. Imagine how they would have immediatelly dismantled the Doctor and disected 7of9. Captain Kim would have certainly turned around on the spot..

[@gladiater56]

On the suggestion of Tactical officer Icheb

[@hariman7727]

@@Mademoiselle_Katie and it would be Kes and Avenging Pirate Overlord Paris doing the killing, with plans to take an Armada to Earth to conquer it, while star fleet sells out half the aligned fleets to the Pirates and Borg Queen Janeway plots at takeover too, with Captain Icheb setting off a temporal doomsday bomb to attempt to reset everything.

[@Oxillious]

Omg, low-key loving these fanfictions you guys are coming up with. XD

[@MajinObama]

@Hermann Amen. Perfect 👌🏻

[@wectorcze424]

In Picard, they literally went against the prime directive, like....when any organic life form does something wrong they don't go "well bye you're banned"

[@BlueSatoshi]

Sounds like ResetEra

[@RAFMnBgaming]

To be fair the PD is something best not followed to the letter, not in the slightest. But on the other hand it does make a lot of sense in spirit.

[@MajinObama]

@Several_Fighters „not in the slightest“? Please elaborate.

[@tree_alone]

@@RAFMnBgaming are you one of the writers lol

[@bl8388]

@@MajinObama Yeah I'd say the Prime Directive is important, and a great rule of thumb. There were times it should arguably be broken. But most times it was best not to do so.

[@rhyscowdry-howes9124]

How great would it have been if the writers knew literally anything about star trek and brought back any of the AIs from TNG? I would love to see, like the nanites or exopods as members of the federation somewhere down the line.

[@FortoFight]

This just makes me sad that Trek isn't like this anymore. And whenever you bring this up to Nu-Trek fans, all they can say is "well, what about Red shirts and double-fist punches? That stuff was dumb." like you can't get rid of the dumb stuff without completely altering the tone of the franchise.

[@Rabbithole8]

Exactly right. It's a false dilemma fallacy the defenders of this incoherent nonsense seem to share. I've had discussions with people that have watched most of Star Trek, that even come up with this among other fallacies. Some how in the late 80s and in the 90s they were able to make Star Trek fit in with TOS and the movies. For some reason currently it's simply impossible. Coherent genre story telling that doesn't undermine the established context, the conceptual universe, that maintains the core ethos of Star Trek, an aspirational future, is all that needs to be created. If we have a compelling story and characters that operate within those necessary constraints, we have a Star Trek series that old and new fans would enjoy together.

[@takerdust]

we live among organic NPCs

[@snakeenjoyingacanofbeans5219]

Good point. It’s the same old argument that there were bad episodes therefore all enjoyment is rose tinted or purely nostalgic. But that’s not even true. Find someone and show them good and bad TNG. They’ll laugh with you and enjoy the bad ones, and enjoy the good ones as much as anyone ever did.

[@Jagent]

It makes a lot more sense when your realize that the hardcore Nu-Trek fans and the creators behind it are mostly socialists. What normal people define as virtuous they define as villainous, and vice versa.

[@Rabbithole8]

@@Jagent The writers of TOS and other iterations of Star Trek probably share liberal democratic and socialist values. Socialism isn't about devaluing what I imagine you think it does. You are falsely equating the extreme left, what is referred to as the regressive left with socialism, although one can embrace both. There is evidence that many of the show runners and writers are regressive liberals. In this way, they have a vacuous notion of virtue, and their concept of social justice is not about equality for all, but undermining privileged groups, so that the designated oppressed groups may thrive.

[@conyo985]

This truly is the dark times. Everything I loved back then is being destroyed now.

[@marccamp6376]

"To die for one's people its a great sacrifice... to live for one's people, an even greater sacrifice. I choose to live for my people, what do you choose?" -Riyo Chuchi making peace with the Talz, Clone Wars

[@RealHogweed]

what makes me really mad is how much of a missed opportunity picard was. The tng stories were interesting and thought provoking (although they had therir shortcomings), the story told by picard was so damn flat...

[@Kidbizzaro6]

Bravo, Alex Kurtzman. You've turned Star Trek into a xenophobic depressing hellhole. I would suggest Warhammer 40,000 as a setting if you wanted to make a show about that, but you'd probably screw that up too.

[@Kidbizzaro6]

@Sasuntidictous Rhoireiphapos That's an idiotic thing to say.

[@Randomguy-wd5lw]

No! Alex Kurtzman would ruin warhammer 40K.

[@lightningchegg4823]

@Sasuntidictous Rhoireiphapos get ratioed

[@ideaaddict923]

From Asimov to terminator

[@James-eq8fs]

Before Harve Bennett took over produced and oversaw Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan he watched all 79 original series episodes to familiarise himself with the world and characters. It's quite obvious that Alex Kurtzman has never put a tenth of that effort into his warped version of Star Trek.

[@voss0749]

WOK is a credit to Nicholas Meyer's direction. He also directed Star Trek VI

[@TheBenevolentPirate]

It's a pet peeve of mine that in sci fi machine races always become human. Like in picard or battlestar galactica. When the interesting thing about them is that they're not human. Data; the exocomps; and the nanites were all interesting in part because they were different and alien. A synth that's indistinguishable from a human might as well be a human. I also don't understand how the synths (in picard) have super human abilities, if they're indistinguishable from humans. For example if they are stronger than humans surely that would mean their muscle tissue would be different.

[@MajorGrin]

I had a similar problem with the replicants in Blade Runner . they're organic and indistinguishable from humans (and yet somehow have superior abilities) . so it never made sense if they're basically the same as humans why are they treated like robot slaves , only because they're artificial. also the idea of a robot who is farther away from humans is more interesting one to explore than one of artificial humans who are human in every way. what makes more mechanical Androids more interesting is because we really don't know where the line is between being just an automaton and a sentient life form . that blurry line is the most interesting philosophical debate . at what point exactly does consciousness begin , and it's a way to explore the very idea of consciousness or a soul and what it is exactly

[@kevinnio]

Yeah, that also puzzles me. If Soji is basically a human built from scratch, then her enhancements have to be genetic in nature, which was already illegal in the Federation.

[@ge2719]

They wanted to make the androids more human looking so they seemed more advanced than data, but they didnt want to explain how they were made from data or how they werent weakened compared to data because they were biological. And yet also weak when they needed them to be. They were just whatever the writer wanted at any given point. Even down to a magic remote off switch

[@TheChabowski]

Part of the "indistinguishable, but stronger" element could just be the ability to ignore natural pain responses (or something similar). Humans tend not to push themselves to their physical limits, which is why you get stories of extreme feats of strength in life or death situations. A biological android capable of using 100% of their body's strength, without subconsciously protecting themselves from the damage it might cause, would have "superhuman" strength even with a body structure identical to any other human. Still wouldn't be anything close to the strength/toughness of Data/Lore in TNG. The flipside of that would be a lot of damage caused to their "human" body from pushing past "safe" limits. A more competent writing team might have done something interesting with the idea. But not the Star Trek Discard team.

[@Leviathis_Krade]

@@kevinnio the new writers haven't watched previous treks other than snippets so of course they would throw all sense of lore logic and reason out the window Major Grin I feel like you would be an ideal casting for a writer of a scifi series specifically one with warp bubbles and 'engag'ing dialogue

[@Hakumo84]

I should enjoy giving thumbs up to so many comments. But all I feel is disgust. Star Trek: Two girls Star Trek Picard: Two girls one cup

[@ranchoth]

There were also at least a couple of cultures in the Delta quadrant that had AIs-mostly holograms, although at least one seemingly was at least AWARE of the concept of an "android"-a couple of whom indeed had AI rebellions... Plus, one that, 700 years in the future, has it mentioned almost offhand that AIs have rights-or at least "are held responsible for their actions." Which, in any case, apparently had enough social and legal pull that a hologram could become a high government official!

[@Tyrannicus]

Wait, I just realized... what were the synths/androids on Mars doing before Mr. Pinkus addressed them? Sleeping? Androids don’t require sleep. They didn’t appear to be recharging/regenerating. I don’t think they were just created/activated as they knew their boss’s name and he said Good Morning not Hello, implying a history. Why were they off? Why not have them work 24/7? What sense does it make to store them in a dark room for no reason when they don’t need to?

[@NitpickingNerd]

And the shipyard was in a hurry to complete the rescue fleet. As we saw in the short trek they didnt even let the workers return to Earth for a holiday because there was so much work. And yet they didnt work in shifts and the Androids just stood in a dark room all night long

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

There is no thematical answer to it other than it suited the plot. That scene was designed to show us how those androids are being treated, where they "belong" and how worthless they are to an "organic". It's just bad and lazy writing without depth in service of cheap thrills.

[@Ammoniumbicarbonat]

@@CrazyBunnyGuy And the dumb creepy music really hammers home how stupid the whole thing is.

[@kathleenhensley5951]

Androids have dreams of electric sheep. :-) Don't overthink these crazy modern writers. You aren't dealing with Asimov and Clarke, here, Tyrannicus! These people have never even thought out a short story plot so it makes coherent sense. If you want that kind of science fiction go back to the greats.

[@Quoxozist]

LMAO you're already in too deep man, there's nothing to think about - it's just idiocy, specifically the king idiot Kurtzman who never liked star trek and never watched it, and his team of genuinely terrible hack writers who have no idea what they're doing.

[@thegethconsensus393]

We have come to a consensus. Modern Star Trek is so antithetical to what Star Trek is that it shouldn’t be considered Canonical.

[@ananousous]

It's a total fabrication. It never happened. Pure fiction.

[@thisnamewerx0350]

It isn't canonical . Just like Star Wars , when the brands were transferred to their new owners they lost canon. I don't care what an acquisition company's opinion on the matter is. Despite those companies wishes, real life cannot be retconned. Having financial ownership does not magically bestow the title of writer / creator of a past work upon its new owner. For example, Disney says the Star Wars expanded universe isn't canon, nothing more than fanfics. Does this not make everything Star Wars Disney has made after acquiring the rights merely the most expensive fanfics to date? All those expanded universe stories and games had just as valid legal licenses to make "Star Wars," yet somehow they don't count because it isn't really "their" story. Neither is it Disney's or Kurtzman's original story anymore than any other 3rd party who has acquired the rights to produce their own "home brew" "fanfic" based upon the original. Despite what our corporate overlords would have us believe in the name of profits buying something doesn't mean you created it. TL:DR If you really want to be technical/anal about it everything non-Roddenbury / non-Lucas is non-canon. Looking at you Sequel trilogy 7-9, ST Discovery, ST Picard, etc.

[@dirkschannel5817]

To quote another franchise: “In the grim darkness of Kurtzman-Treks future, there is only war...”

[@returnedtomonkey8886]

For the EMPEROR!

[@sokoTV2]

Why did Patrick Stewart want STP to be this way, and not want it to be what made TNG so great? There are so many things I wish I could expand upon or "fix" in TNG, like reviving Lal, or make it so Tasha Yarr doesn't die a concubine, or retcon all of the TNG and J.J. movies and the Kurtzman shows. But these cruel writers were able to get their grubby mitts on the franchise and turn it into something awful, pushing their own pessimism and hatred of humanity onto it. I vow that if I somehow write for Star Trek one day, I will undo all the things these writers have done and make Star Trek something to be proud of and something children and adults can look up to. Though I guess I should finish DS9 first...

[@TheSignOfZeta]

Yes, you definitely should finish DS9 first. It has plenty of dark moments, but it's still hopeful, something that current Trek lacks.

[@christopherjones5446]

@JamPacked Because Patrick Stewart, by his own admission, doesn’t care about Picard as a character. For him, it was a paycheck and he doesn’t have this sense of stewardship of this character like, say, Mark Hamill does for Luke Skywalker (he was ready to walk if he didn’t get raise after part one of Best Of Both Worlds). What he does like is money and a platform to express his half baked militant progressive ideals. And STP gave him both. I think it’s time for us to get our heads out of the clouds about him and see him for what he is: A money grubbing, above average Shakespearean actor (McKellen acts rings around him!) who won the casting lottery three decades ago. If it weren’t for Trek, he’d have been yet another c list British character actor sporadically appearing in American productions as “the English villain” or a Doctor Who adversary.

[@sokoTV2]

@@christopherjones5446 I get not wanting to be defined by your acting role, and Jean-Luc Picard is a defining role nearly on par with Luke Skywalker. But I will defend Stewart's acting, at least in the TNG show. He's so charismatic and so morally driven as Picard. Part of that is the writing, part of that is the direction, but Stewart himself acts far on another level compared to any acting on any TV show past and present. Too bad it seems clear he's letting his talents go to waste and is hurting his most inspiring character. I hope the money he got from CBS was worth it. I'm sure he justifies pushing his views into star trek because "Star Trek is just as progressive as I am!" or some bologna.

[@austinfrazier7325]

Christopher Jones well said. I certainly have the blinders off now. Unrelated, I met Brent Spiner in an airport 3 years ago and he was an ass to me when I told him I was a fan. So rose colored glasses are off for him too.

[@sokoTV2]

@@austinfrazier7325 Actors can other celebrities can be finicky when you approach them in public, so I can't really blame them if they're being an asshole to people who seem to endlessly approach them, especially at an airport. I've heard of genuinely heartwarming experiences when people have met Spiner at conventions where he'll be really appreciative if they've watched a show he was in that wasn't Star Trek. I guess he was able to put on that public face that he wanted for that moment in time. I don't think you should judge an actor based on a meeting you've had with him at an airport. Being frustrated and wanting to be left alone whilst at an airport is human. I think it's fine to judge them when they've had time to put on that public face and actually express their views/appreciation or whatever. Like if they're posting something on Twitter, or they're at a convention, or they're appearing in a video or show where they express their views. But meeting them in public is a whole different thing. So don't let that experience sour your opinion of Spiner. Take pride in the fact that Spiner was an asshole to you at an airport.

[@michaelmutranowski123]

there was no need to build a race of machine people because the Federation was using holograms as "disposable" "people" back in Voyager.

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

And I bet it's much easier to manufacture and install a bunch of holoprojectors, than mass-produce androids.

[@ananousous]

@@CrazyBunnyGuy But imagine if they ran into more of that space magic that caused the holodeck to malfunction every other week

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

Also industrial replicators and transporters are apparently capable of automatically constructing entire ships on their own. No need for much physical labour.

[@jogymogy3691]

Man, I miss Captain Picard. This guy is a legend. To Hell with Jay El!

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

First time she said "J.L." I honestly wanted to throw something at the TV. It doesn't even roll off the tongue that nicely. Its only purpose is to show how suddenly everyone's on nickname basis with one of the most important people in Starfleet history?

[@jogymogy3691]

@@CrazyBunnyGuy even Q wouldn't dare calling Picard JL.

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

@@jogymogy3691 I bet Picard would have found a way to murder Q had he dared to call him that. :) Aaargh, J.L. It shortens nothing, it's still two syllables, jay el, jean luc, it's more difficult to pronounce and it's completely out of place for a character with so much dignity, experience and standing (at least the Picard of yore).

[@rudiruttger]

Gosh if this doesn't make me angry.

[@numbers9to0]

It just shows, again, that Kurtzman is a below average writer.

[@user-og6hl6lv7p]

That is putting it extremely lightly

[@bertimusprime7900]

I disagree. He’s no writer at all!

[@TheWilkReport]

Abrams, Klutzman, and their sycophants always despised Star Trek and what it stood for. They've turned Gene Roddenberry's optimistic vision of the future into a dystopian nightmare. It's outrageous that they are allowed to continue corrupting everything they touch.

[@lucinavonnolaran8728]

I personally disagree with Abrams corrupting or even despising Star Trek. To me, it seems like he did enjoy filming 2009 and Into Darkness, and hell, by the end of Into Darkness, it begins to get optimistic again as what *would* be the Kelvin Timeline's version of The Original Series kicks off, with Beyond following shortly after that movie. 2009 started dystopian and it kinda segwayed to Into Darkness, but that's because of the Narada scaring the hell out of Starfleet, something that we HAVE seen happen, take a look at The Defiant and The Sovereign class being built in response to the Borg, for instance.

[@tyrgoossens]

This does seem to be part of a bigger trend. The days of Asimov are long gone. Most robotic beings and AI are depicted as either dangerous to humans because they are oblivious or even downright malicious. Like the "simulation theory" this meme has lodged itself into the mind of a certain class of people and it's everywhere.

[@Cartoonman154]

As much as I dislike Star Trek Picard, the actor playing F8 did a great job.

[@MajorGrin]

yes, I kept waiting for that actor to come back (as more of that same type of Androids) , but he never did

[@braveintofuture]

Yes, really makes a believable Android. More than the guys from synthville ("u play"?)

[@ALWhite-ub1ye]

That actor sold those scenes. I kept waiting to see more of that android line in some frontier setting where the ban was never really enforced.

[@LordsofMedia]

you guys are out of your minds. FG8 sucks

[@DagobertX2]

Last scene should have been the nuData wanting to kill himself and asks nuPicard to do it.

[@NoSTs123]

In my opinion, the best thing we got from ST:Picard are your edits.

[@fluffypinkpandas]

Its almost like TNG was a mature show that handled mature topics with maturity for mature audiences in every sense of the word. "Mature" today just means you get to smoke a stogie, be gritty and edgy, and swear alot.

[@alecjones8235]

So sad I miss Star Trek

[@Dancestar1981]

Alec Jones it truly ended with Voyager and Enterprise was an interesting Prequel

[@snake56]

Did they ever explain why the synths attacked the Utopia Planitia shipyards?

[@baronsengir187]

Of course not

[@MFSeaMen]

I have a strange feeling that Kurtzman only saw the Mirror Universe Episodes of each series and thinks that is what Trek is.

[@ALWhite-ub1ye]

Now I really want to see a Mirror Universe Khan show up to pound some humanity back into the Federation and Trek in general.

[@MFSeaMen]

@@ALWhite-ub1ye imagine the scene... A runabout is outside the Enterprise, but comms are down, only static, the runabout lands in the shuttlebay and the hatch opens... Its Khan. He walks up to Kirk with an outstretched hand, "Hello Captain, introductions are a dish best served warm".

[@OneWingedRose]

Hey @Major Grin I'm watching Deep Space Nine and in season 4 episode 7 Quark is surprised by what cigarettes are and exclaims if they (20th century humans) will buy poison then they'll buy anything. Just made me think of this channel and the vaping in Star Trek Picard lol so thought I'd share.

[@FritzMonorail]

My favorite thing about star trek has always been its optimistic outlook on humanities future. This is something I think we need now more than ever. Its a shame Star Trek is going down this path.

[@MJRSoap]

Remember the ending of Voyager where the EMH (pre-time travel) showed that he had been in various relationships, and there were also now Holograms all over the place as the Mobile Emitter had been replicated. What ever happened to that?

[@kentallard8852]

Everything is pessimistic in Discovery and Picard, its like some mall goths self insert fanfic where everything has to be dark like their life

[@brunadb23]

What's pessimistic about Discovery? The starting point of the characters and story don't reflect the view of the series as a whole... the entire point is that the characters and dynamics will change. Discovery has done a great job at character development and showing deep human connections in general.

[@sugoistalin7809]

They really are going all in on the "AI is evil trope" huh.

[@Karakla08]

I never really understand why people say the development of AI is a bad thing. I mean,... why should Artifical Life Form hostile towards its creator?

[@smintili]

Klutzman: “But ethical issues can’t have lots of explosions and pewpew!!!”

[@caboose.20]

"Liutentant-Commander Data has the right to choose." "HeLlO pLasTic pEopLe"

[@kathleenhensley5951]

Sad isn't it? Why would their society regress like that?

[@karimblix4378]

Zoomer sci-fi A.I comes into existence: "Time to destroy all life in the universe"

[@ihavenoname561]

"Zoomer sci-fi" Bruh

[@cortster12]

Well they portrayed it terribly and without logic, but an AI being programmed poorly and going rogue doing exactly what you told to is the real danger. Not a bug, or them being hacked, or whatever, but them doing exactly what they were programmed to... and doing it too well without knowing how to stop.

[@karimblix4378]

@@cortster12 thats an even more stupid idea

[@wilmagregg3131]

@@cortster12 but thats not the issue of course ai can be coded wrong the problem is most sci fy now days just ASSUMES any ai if allowed to exist will no matter what become skynet exterminators WHCIH IS STUPID star trek had it right the first time YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT IN

[@cortster12]

@@wilmagregg3131 Mainstream sci fi is stupid in general when it comes to AI. It has made people think the concept is a joke, or obviously fictional because of how poorly they do it. AI won't suddenly go all 'hur dur, I am sentient now, humanity sucks' and kill us all. It's more complicated than that, and there are many, many ways it could happen. But mainstream science fiction just goes with what the masses can understand, so the AI is humanized with motivations.

[@brofenix]

Yeah, this sums the difference in viewpoint pretty well.

[@theojenner1902]

This video perfectly shows what’s wrong with nutrek. In old trek nothing was expressly evil, with the exception of star fleet admirals half the time. Often a species or the ai was misunderstood and the episode was explaining their point of view or why it contrasts star fleet.

[@charlescorry3331]

I love these edits they make you truly understand that no matter if they call it Star Trek it’s the evil universe version. Just waiting for a rift in space to open up and the real tv show start

[@luigimaster111]

I've always believed the creation of super intelligent AI, if made with honest intentions, would likely be an entirely beneficial endeavor. Supposing it was properly intelligent, it probably wouldn't have the arrogance to believe it was better than just because it is more intelligent. It'd probably have a high opinion of us for creating it, and probably not take any lethal actions against us unless we were excessively restricting its personal freedom or began harming its capacity to survive. Empathy is an evolved trait and also a product of our intelligence, if we model an AI based off of our own intelligence it'll more than likely have empathy.

[@georgeray1906]

I agree with what you beautifully said.

[@alack3879]

"Lets do evil ai, no one has ever done that before"

[@Ebalosus]

What kills it for me is that the robot racism stuff in older Treks, not to mention the Orville and Mass Effect, was done better and with a lot more nuance than what NuTrek does. While the former’s message regarding AI is essentially _they’re a product of their creators, for better or worse,_ NuTrek (both STD and STP), it’s the lazy _all or nothing_ conceit, where either all AI is a threat to everyone everywhere, or it isn’t. Instead of using it as a springboard for discussions on sentient life and it’s right to exist, the philosophy of life and what it means to be alive, the implications of artificial sentient lifeforms and their impacts, the relationships between both AI and non-AI, and AI and other AI, it’s the trite done-to-death _grr robot men bad!_

[@newdefsys]

Haven't watched a single episode of the new Trek and I see I aint missing nothing.

[@dcb_75]

Problem I have is that the androids in Picard are not the same as Data - it is like comparing apples to oranges and then saying "well they are all fruits". The androids in Picard for the most part are far more simplistic, almost like borg drones in that they have no purpose other than their work. Data had a career, one that he chose, he developed and grew, painted, played music, etc. It's like saying your iPhone is alive because you can talk to it like a person - you are using a very basic function to decide that. If they were all like Data, then maybe it would have made better sense but they are pretty much walking tricorders so it falls flat.

[@MGuyGadbois]

I can't believe I *just* realized that the courtroom is a red-dress of the Battle Bridge.

[@engineer9941]

It was also the armigosa observatory in generations and appeared many other times

[@jamiethomas18]

There is such a stark contrast in quality between the Berman era and the JJ/Kurtzman brand of "Star Trek". Star Trek 1966-2005.

[@grimstrife4338]

Patrick Stewart doesn't like Captain Picard. That is why he never did anything related to him until the convention when he announced he was coming back in a new role he had partial creative control over. Some of this is his fault.

[@Vaultboy101]

STKuntzman is so misanthropic.

[@simplythebest2k]

It’s a reflection of how we as humans used to be and how we as humans are getting to. It’s a digression not a progression.

[@SpaceMonke99]

Lmao, imagine being optimistic. Literally who would do that? I want all my TV full of edgy gore and plots about death, destruction and the futility of our hopeless struggle to the tune of cartoonishly corny bad guys making it all happen. Nihilism ftw!

[@EATHER2468]

The knife of betrayal 🔪 ever so sharp. sharp enough to pierce cobalt duranium.

[@jacksongugel5397]

What did Data even live and die for? STP makes me sick.

[@michaelkokot8700]

The TNG era Enterprise could come to a peaceful & bloodless, amicable agreement with either STD's future A.I./nanites or ST: Picard's extra-dimensional A.I. and they wouldn't even need a 2-parter episode to do it. Nu-Trek's Federation would fail their application for admission into TNG's Federation of Planets, it is too fearful, war-like and abandons diplomacy for violence.

[@davenathan2002]

My god, those clips from Discovery look like a Hot Topic kid got access to a SyFy season budget.

[@emptank]

The main question I think comes down to this: is morality rational? For TNG it was. The vulkans embraced logic to end chaos and suffering they became a more moral species through reason. Therefore a synthetic race would conclude the same system of logic and likewise become moral through reason. New treck doesn't think so. They see morality as a cultural bias not a universal system. So an absolutely rational race like machines would be a supremely selfish race hostile to organic life. Old Picard could trust that whatever differences might exist between himself and whatever new thing he found in the galaxy be it an alien race or machine intelligence he could still find some kind of common ground, understanding, and mutual sense of right and wrong with which to deal with them. New Picard thinks in terms of likeminded good races and foreign evil races and for all the shows attempts at moral nuance that creates a far more black and white universe.

[@ThePaulalv]

Great video! Please make one about Bruce Maddox in TNG vs in STP. He certainly doesn't seem the same character.

[@wolfpax22]

I feel like the world of TNG doesn't really make the a distinction between different kinds of life forms (organic or synthetic) the way it is done in STP. If anything the whole plot of Measure of a Man was against such a distinction (as are the overall plots of Data's personal evolution and that of the Doctor from Voyager). The emergence of intelligence within the Enterprise computer is itself an "organic" process. I feel like the overall message on the subject from TNG is that the hallmark of sentient life is the ability to choose one's own destiny. Even one of the most pessimistic interpretations of rogue AI in TNG, Professor Moriarty, shows this distinction.

[@007Spadge]

It's not difficult at all to realize that STD & STP are not in fact Star Trek. The original shows were made by talented writers with a vison, the others by Alex Kurtzman.

[@roadent217]

Star Trek Picard: "You always know... A working Joe."

[@giin97]

The yum yum thing was just.... Weird. And the maniacal laughter at the suffering of the what, assimilated dude? Not watched the recent seasons.

[@JoeyDee86]

To be fair, Voyager did the same thing with exploiting holograms. It started there ;)

[@Lesandira]

Bioware, 2011: We want the Call of Duty audience! Kurtzmann, 2020: We want the Mass Effect audience!

[@haydentravis3348]

Can't have anything nice, gotta be super tense and threatening to sell.

[@Swindle1984]

That one headrest in the observation lounge being tilted at an odd angle in many episodes always drove me nuts.

[@the81kid]

New Star Trek is a good reflection of our society: nihilistic, narcissistic, meaningless, empty, where anything you want can and should happen if you just have enough "imagination".

[@returnedtomonkey8886]

What do you mean by "imagination"?

[@the81kid]

@@returnedtomonkey8886 And by imagination, I mean "feeeelings".

[@returnedtomonkey8886]

@@the81kid are you implying feelings are bad?

[@the81kid]

@@returnedtomonkey8886 That depends on how much imagination you have. Oh, and feeeeeeeeeeeelings.

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

You know, New-Dreck kind of made me forget what Starfleet actually stood for. And these videos keep reminding me. Thank you for that. I do feel genuine happiness, seeing such unbridled optimism for the future, put into contrast with edgy garbage from today. We may have to wait a decade, but we will probably get back to a culture that genuine believes in optimism. The Orville is a good start.

[@hahafunny7487]

Alex Kurtzman has never ever watched a single episode of good Star trek

[@RicardoAGuitar]

I think his only knowledge of Star Trek is: 1) Spock has pointy ears 2) William Shatner, what a ham, amirite?? 3) Picard facepalming 4) Earth is in the United Corporation of Planets

[@NathanieI87]

Star Trek = A highly evolved and improved version of todays humanity in the 23rd and 24th century with the quest of constantly becoming better in understanding new Life and civilizations. KurtzTrek = Todays version of humanity in space 'doing stuff'

[@Jimbobalina1]

it’s a stark contrast. How sad the creatives of this generation are so spiritually and morally bankrupt.

[@AegisHyperon]

New Star Trek is like a casual fan writing fanfics for their youtube channel

[@RipRoaringGarage]

Glad to know there are still old school Trekkies out there, and see this new stuff as knock-offs, not spin-offs.

[@MsHojat]

That case of the androids killing people (and itself) around Mars was erroneous and I don't know how the author wouldn't have known that. They were taken over by the Zhat Vash. Pretty sure that Data has been taken over to do malicious things as well, so what's with the dumbness by the author here? Not only that, but there was a significant implied notion that Data wasn't the same as the synthetics shown there. That androids didn't kill themselves out of remorse for what they did, it was done by the Zhat Vash to help eliminate evidence of how the issue happened.

[@Roper122]

That's just depressing to watch

[@juresaiyan]

Gene:"Look how they massacred my boy..."

[@yarrik701]

And here i thought voyager established that holograms were reduced to doing dangerous and dirty jobs. You dont have to maintain and decontaminate them like you would an actual physical android. But I've not watched this show yet, maybe there's a compelling reason why in an episode.

[@Mr_Flerb]

What is that image on the right side of the thumbnail? Is that a Data make-up test?

[@515161]

Std and picard are startrek in name only.

[@daviyo5]

Ok so, apart from the fact that the "robots are bad mkay?" horse is getting beaten some more, here's a question that came up: Did the droids just decided to destroy Mars because they rebelled or because someone hacked their brain?

[@jackbj]

Data on the left in the thumbnail looks like O’Brien to me lmfao