When Character Theory FAILS in Smash Ultimate

[@Spyder-Marth]

7:49 "I think a lot of players just dropped these characters because" I absolutely agree, especially with Marth. People get so focused on landing tippers 100% of the time that they don't realize that he does not, no... SHOULDN'T be going for that. Sour spots lead into tech chases and confirms that make Marth have some consistent, easy confirms. He has Nair 1 -> Dolphin Slash that is mega consistent yet no Marth does it because they want that cool Marth string that anyone with decent fundies can avoid. I think Marth would be so much better if people just played him with fundies first and foremost, then had the occasional tech added to him. Like Shinymark just won a C tier event using solo Marth and he did NO crazy strings or anything technical. Just great fundies and he won with a "bad" character he only labbed for like 9 months. He even mentioned that he didn't do anything crazy yet his win was absolute. He now thinks Marth is busted but it's players that exaggerated his issues while fishing for clips too much.

[@TavaresSSB]

@@Spyder-Marth there definitely is a smash community issue with getting lost of the "broken" things without looking at the whole picture, and I think Marth is a great example of that like you said. Unfortunately it'll just take a very talented player of these characters to break this perception the majority of players have

[@Spyder-Marth]

​@@TavaresSSB yeah you're right. Also sorry I forgot to actually finish the quote of yours in my OG comment. Idk how I screwed that up but I got the time stamp LOL

[@TwinHacari]

"only labbed for 9 months" is a crazy sentence

[@TwinHacari]

Marth is bad because theres 80 MUs to learn. And everyone is strong now. Thats why hes realistically low high tier at best. Too many things to juggle when you could just low effort things. And make your workload easier. He'll never be top tier because thatd be too much effort for arguably the bronze tier swordie in the game. That same effort yields more results given to cloud or aegis.

[@S1neWav_]

yeah marth is good because he has options, not just tippers

[@csto6804]

as a sora main, i gotta agree with the combos, but i do gotta disagree on the players though, sora imo is like a base roster character, it takes time to get good with him and he had late start, players like kameme and now more recently raarchyor is showing out what the character can do at a top level, just give it some time

[@TavaresSSB]

@@csto6804 for sure I believe in Sora as a regular character 100%

[@csto6804]

@ yeah it’s just like i’m glad you understand that the character is good but not like broken like some people think, heard people tell me sora is top 15😭😭

[@TavaresSSB]

@csto6804 Yeah I'm not part of the theory group anymore which is REALLY the point I wanted to make in the video but the character is definitely solid enough to be high tier even if he isn't 0 to deathing everyone

[@csto6804]

@@TavaresSSB i personally think he’s top 25 tbh like he’s just a few steps away from being top tier but yeah not being able to 0td evb makes his gameplan a lot worse tbh

[@TrueXTrickster]

At the very least Sora will always be meta relevant, being able to kill anyone at any time off an aerial he likes to spam in neutral anyway. The fact that DI, SDI, and even Percentage don't really hinder the infinite makes it strong, even amongst other 0 to Deaths. I think he's going to go down as a character that isn't really broken, but also a character who's most likely to cause a lot of upsets when it's all said and done.

[@chessmadeeasy6073]

I think Big D is a good example of this. I don't usually see him go for the crazy icies clips. He just hits you with the tail end of squall hammer into u-air string for 60 damage

[@TavaresSSB]

@@chessmadeeasy6073 Definitely a great example. He is definitely one of the best players in the world at just playing the game even with his ice climbers combos never being that insane just because of his awareness and skill

[@chinelo_jpg]

​@@TavaresSSBand even then, from time to time, hes still pulling out the crazy icies combos and setups, like the nana footstool on uptilt or smth his awareness is just that good, he knows when he can pull the crazy stuff off and WHEN to pull it off

[@BaselardFE]

I think your final point of 'just play smash bros instead of trying to play perfect' sums it up quite nicely and applies to pretty much the whole cast. Would it be cool to get that specific setup in bracket? Yes but it's not necessary and it might hurt your play more than help it.

[@RegalBlob]

"Just play Smash Brothers" Genuinely a really good quote ngl

[@Kisthenewp]

I think it would be interesting to look at cases where the opposite is true (ie When Character Theory succeeded), like luigi and bayo, which would be a pretty cool companion piece to this one.

[@TavaresSSB]

@@Kisthenewp That's a great idea! I'll look into it thanks for suggesting

[@s3eriousbl9ck26]

5:40 Footstool and Zdrop is his fastest OOS options. You can also start it from a hard and soft Nair, Bair 1 and 2, and dragdown Fair. You can also perform a ZAR OOS. You just shouldnt be fishing for it. You should be influencing them into a pick your poison situation whr that is an option they can be forced to pick. You said something about having to choose between recovering and comboing with bomb when in practice its not that big of an issue. Thats why you see many mains leave it lying around on stage as area denial. You'd have to be knocked off stage leaving the bomb pretty close to the opponent otherwise youll get a free recovery if they go to pick it up but youll notice many times they dont have time to do it. Most Link mains automatically pull bomb when flying off stage and most opponents focus on edge guards and ledge traps meaning you can detonate it and pull a new one then pick how you want to recover. We should be taking it a step further and using ZARs to edge guard deep.

[@draymondstreamz8268]

Had to drop the sub, great content for a game that doesn’t get much , keep up the good work

[@TavaresSSB]

THANK YOU HOMIE

[@gusteen3292]

As a bowser main, I wonder to myself what category he would fall under. He is a very odd fighter, a heavy with surprisingly good combo potential, out-of-shield options, a passable recovery, and of course good power, but if you get past his defenses, he crumbles like paper, at least to me. I wonder what you think of him. I think he's underrated and has the potential to be good, but that may require a playstyle shift since I've been getting good results with a hyper-aggressive bowser.

[@TavaresSSB]

@@gusteen3292 I'm making a video SPECIFICALLY about all of the heavies and my thoughts on them so be on the look out!

[@gusteen3292]

@@TavaresSSB Can't wait

[@kevcopo]

I like how you’re starting to do video essays on smash. I only use to watch VarsIII but I like your vibe and glad I found you

[@navdalmia6488]

New subscriber to the channel, love your perspectives. Would love to see my mains Sephiroth and Diddy in a future video, keep up the good work!

[@30Kur0]

I honestly think Captain falcon was a victim of theory as well. I remember watching fatality practice IDJ combos out of up smash, with ledge slips, and falling up air, and yata yata yata. Anything and everything they could think to try and prove the character could actually combo people. When in actuality all that stuff just doesn't really happen.

[@DuyuCoyote]

I don't play competitively anymore, just for fun. When I pick my character, I don't pick the best I pick what feels right. I've theorized I play my main incorrectly (mii swordfighter) since I use no projectiles, but since it effectively makes them a faster Ike it just happends to be the most fun regardless of its competitive ranking.

[@alviabtahi5440]

No mention of the Potential Man himself, Shulk?

[@TavaresSSB]

@@alviabtahi5440 was considering it but he felt like he is pretty fairly rated nowadays AND his theory isn't anything crazy complicated just the "I can adapt to anything" argument, something like Hero Might make a video on that though

[@theelectricant98]

People who main him are realistic about it and stick more to bread and butter rather than anything crazy to execute

[@Saferoom45]

As a Sora main myself(and even though i never been to tournaments before but i have play Sora more than once) I still think Sora does and still have the potential of been a higher up fighters. The reason why is because some players think they can take advantage of the the fighters without even learning the hitboxes and tactics. Sure this game suppose to be like rock, paper, siccors but even that can be hard to predict. Every fighters has different moves and they have to be respectful for it otherwise you have to learn the hard way. Take all the time they need to learn about Sora and be creative in their own way. Thats what i did.

[@TwinHacari]

Interested in marth and shulk opinions. Characters who should be top tier but are not having what it takes

[@temmie5764]

Fun fact! Lucas has a true universal infinite that can be done out of shield! Footstool djcz is wild. It isn’t actually that hard either, it’s just rhythm… with a different rhythm per most character (only really 5 different rhythms) He’s just crazy but all Lucas players learn neutral or tech and sacrifice the other lmao

[@TavaresSSB]

@@temmie5764 i was gonna ask on your other comment, why doesnt it work on Charizard facing one direction? Does his hurt box shift so much that it isn't possible?

[@temmie5764]

@ ​​⁠ nah his big head is just in the way lmao, forgot i already said

[@temmie5764]

it just always hits the strong/early hitbox when you need the late or close

[@electricssb]

Exaxtly. this character’s tech isnt even hard bro its just that no onewants to do it. It doesnt mean the character is bad. The loop is frame 4 out of shield and it can be started off of zair(which is very common to get in neutral)

[@TavaresSSB]

@electricssb I can't believe something is believable to be not that hard if none of the Lucas players do it consistently enough to win but hey, once they do Ill be wrong and Lucas will benefit. Go show it!

[@Shootkapow]

"you're seeing lucas mains show how hard their clips are on twitter and then expecting them to do it multiple times in bracket?" BUBBS LITERALLY DID BOTH OF THOSE THINGS PLEEEEEASE STOP DOOMING

[@weebrahimmmm7269]

a Japanese Sora that isn't kameme just got top 8 at a major so I still have hope

[@StreakDragon1]

Ooo, I never thought of this before . Cool vid

[@dragnjames2190]

Character theory is always too focused on being "perfect" and not being "human." Smash players get so caught up with trying to farm clips that it ends up burning them out and leads to character stagnation. I personally think Marth is fine in Ultimate given how much he has to work against the engine and powercreep. He shouldn't be fishing for tippers constantly. Marth should be almost turtling like Ryu, WALK around for microspacing, play more grounded and use his crazy good tilts to safely poke and swat at people. His ftilt and uptilt alone are better than bottom tiers like Ganondorf, Dedede and Kirby. Zero Suit Samus as well, could benefit from a different playstyle. She has the best mobility stats in the game with amazing camping/stall potential. If more players poked and ran the clock with ZSS, they'd be winning far more often.

[@Ami-is-Blsd]

Surprised you didn’t talk about Mr potential pikachu

[@Brion15]

Just because the main representatives of link stopped playing doesn't mean link sucks. The player's character base aren't there yet, an example would be banjo and kazooie. Low tier for years and now people think the character is high tier. Link needs time and remember it's the player most of the time and not the character. Sora just had two sora mains hit top 8 in a major for Japan. I think valuing these results should hold some weight. Any character can win from the easiest (gnw) to the hardest (technical characters). Takes time, melee took over a decade to see a yoshi called Amsa before switching opinions on the character. Ult not only is much harder but will take another few years. There's already top links moving up in Japan, just have patience.

[@basil1913]

Shulk sheik Rosa also can included

[@s3eriousbl9ck26]

I think your off the mark on Link. Having 1 bomb is all you need. The problem is for Link to be played at max potential you need to master piloting Link and the bomb from the advanced tech down to very subtle movement and understand his influence. Another issue is most Link mains dont put in the work to get to that point and think that lerning the footstools and bombos is the end. Bomb has 60% of HP, the physics of a volleyball, can be set off by fire, and interacts with transcended projectiles. Theres also ZCatch and ZCatch Instan ZDrop. I could go on and on but the point is the bomb is fine. You just need to see better pilots play. Check out Prand Grix. I learned a lot from watching him here on KZbin but I can confidently say that I can do more with Link than he can now outside of his ledge trap set ups. Bomb should be like having a puppet character. Link is just a lot of work to fully master so you will rarely see a near max potential pilot for Link.

[@TwinHacari]

@@s3eriousbl9ck26 Links fine but his best player is strictly online. All prand grix does is bombos and good fundamentals anyway. I don't think he's complicated. He just doesn't have much to work with. He conditions and messes with the space with bomb and sometimes uses it to bombo you. Nothing deep about Link beyond it

[@BATTLESOFRAP]

What about ice climbers the ultimate theory charachter

[@lbesavant]

Their combos are much more explored and applied. Sure, people know where to tech the footstool and when to SDI in/out, but they still get 50+ off every hit and will end you if you're not careful

[@richardszoghy1907]

Where is Zelda from this video?

[@CudChewingCattle]

Just pick joker. Or kazooya. Or aegis. Pretty braindead and consistent 0-deaths. There's a reason joker is the only char consistently ranked with or above steve. It's the fraction of time commitment for consistent results. Other chars have the bs factor, but joker literally rewards you for being bad with smash attacks that kill any char off the side at 14% AND guaranteed any % infinites

[@witherbrine5674]

If joker is so good why is mkleo the only top 50 joker player?

[@KjBootz]

@@witherbrine5674exactly

[@bbqseitan7106]

If anything Joker belongs in THIS video

[@TheCorey1397]

really good vid

[@TwinHacari]

All this string of videos tell me lately is Lucas mains needs reality checks. The characters is hardcapped at mid tier. He'll never be anything more than a pipe dream 😂.

[@electricssb]

At some point im just gonna make a video on lucas myself.

[@Dbxndzz-re1sr]

Down smash is underrated af in my opinion. 2 framing demon, high kill power, and super safe. Easily top 10

[@XinLiXiang12345]

@@Dbxndzz-re1sr EXACTLY !!! Finally someone talks about his downsmash. Also, his edgeguarding is one of the best in the game. Lucas is underrated and hes my main too

[@electricssb]

Lucas’s neutral doesnt need to be top tier at all. Also djcz combos arent hard lmao, good players dint practice enough. His neutral is that of a high tier, and he has the best edgeguarding in the game.

[@TwinHacari]

His neutral is barely mid tier wym. His good players put in actual effort in the game. Whats your win rate in bracket btw?

[@electricssb]

@ Only local i ever attended i placed second in after throwing grands

[@tannerarmstrong1496]

As a completely random stranger with no expertise in content creation, I would give you constructive feedback that in my opinion your little semi animated avatar doesn't really do much to improve the quality of the video other than to be a distraction, and I think you would be better doing an actual face-cam, or just leaving out the avatar entirely.

[@TavaresSSB]

Yeah I can understand that, lets just say that, that guy helps me have the confidence to make these videos in the first place Sorry he doesn't add much right now though but Ill work on it!

[@Oz1455]

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