When Narcissist is Rejected by Peers

Pathoetiology via peers mainly in adolescence
Idiosyncrasies (e.g. autism, obesity, gender dysphoria, gifted) lead to peer rejection.
Stunted separation-individuation leads to peer rejection and life-threatening shame.
Cognitive dissonance resolved: I am rejecting them because I am superior to them. I am a sage, a hero, a victim.
Peers provide reality testing and scripts. They serve as a modeling reference group. Mutual rejection results in cluelessness, pseudo-stupidity, automatism, and compensatory fantasy (including imaginary peers, for example on social media or VR).
Splitting defense (peers are all bad, I am perfect)
Fantasy defense
Dissociation
Displaced passive-aggression
In short: covert narcissism
Conflicting parental messaging and modeling: the world is not safe, we need you, you owe us (conformity) vs. you are abnormal, what is wrong with you, start to act your age and make friends (normalcy).
This leads to recurrent failure and an impaired sense of self-efficacy.
Narcissists misperceive their intimate partners as maternal figures and rejecting and retraumatizing peers (reenactment, akin to living history).
This yields age-inappropriate behavior and triggers all the defenses. It helps the narcissist to devalue and separate.
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[@Little.R]

This resonated with me on multiple levels. The rejection by parents, rejection by peers, and alienation. Not being allowed to individuate... I was in my mid-20's when I finally got traction and socially accepted. Shutting my parents out of my life allowed me to grow. I came into a new understanding of myself and basically became a new person. Turns out the friends that were so accepting of me saw me as a third/fifth wheel, etc and I no longer talk to them either. Now I'm just a socially isolated man in my 30's who can't maintain anything more than a cursory casual friendship. Not to mention the multiple failed relationships along my life's story. I'm 36 now and have no idea if I'll ever have a real friend or be allowed to start a family. I'm haunted by the fact that I've never been good enough for anyone, but I'm to stubborn to stop trying. It's all too little too late at this point. No one cares.

[@IRONBYRON3]

No one cares more than you, about you. Keep doing the inner work...and ground yourself in reality. Always keep trying...the lightbulb was not functional until many failed attempts; each attempt yielding a better modicum of understanding, eventually bringing the design to fruition. Set an intention, and work towards it.

[@lindasacks8572]

Don't give up. There really are caring people in this world.

[@bernicegoldham1509]

36 is nothing. There's dudes out here who have achieved the kind of goals you're aspiring to in their early fifties. Stay stubborn/keep growing. 🖖

[@pseudonymous8702]

Are you a narcissist?

[@danaezama5701]

Oh wow. It's like you did this for me. My Covert Narcissist Ex - never needed or tried to make friends and now i understand why. As a narcissist, his adoring public wasn't the public, but it was our children - whom he manipulated to see him as both a victim and a Savior. He is so passive-aggressive. Then he scapegoated me and trained our children to scapegoat me also. He alienated my children from me and my life is a living hell. Deep hell - because I cannot separate my love from my children who do not need me in their lives and reject me as a bad person - unworthy of love. I'd give anything to get them back - but also know it may never happen. And yes, he was the ultimate mother's boy as a child - his mother's surrogate husband. He was diagnosed as borderline.

[@QuasiBlond]

Ditto

[@whiterabbit3439]

Amazing analysis, Dr. Vaknin! Thank you. For me, this relates to scapegoating...when the scapegoat awakens and removes themselves, the scapegoaters' compulsions become laughably obvious -- pathetic.

[@debbiehepler2007]

This explains how they can be so cruel to people that love them.

[@BillyTheKidsGhost]

I was the dumbest kid in my class. But I felt so loved by my peers. My mother always told me I was useless. I once got thrown out of my class,... and my classmates made the teacher cry. I was such a bad child, and my peers seems so innocent. Right up un till a class trip to Prague. Where I could see them cut loose. I felt so happy for them I was so surprised. I also felt like I could protect any one of my classmates if need be and I would. I had just one incident in the 10 years where a classmate challenged me but it didn't go far because I could kick his ass. My class was often told it was the most well-behaved class in the whole school by the teachers. My classmates had my back and I had theirs. My parents were clueless abusive alcoholics at the time. It makes me very happy that a group of people loved me enough to help me through the hard times I had in school.

[@grump9001]

You described my life at 32:00, the push and pull of my narc parents. I am 32, live near them and rely on their financial help to take care of my 7 and 3 yr old. I've been learning about narcissism and borderline and ptsd for 10 years but am still struggling. You made me cry by putting it perfectly in way I hadn't thought of, how I am rejected by them as not good enough, constantly mocked and judged by my mom, and yet told also she needs me, that I cannot leave, that she needs to see her grandchildren or will have nothing in her life, and that I should be able to handle it. I'm a big girl, I have a college degree, I have a roof over my head. Yes, true. She has always compared herself as being 'not as bad as HER mom' who was extremely abusive and put her out on the street. I was not really peer rejected much growing up, I think because I grew up to be a people pleaser due to this. But I did have a hard time emotional regulating with my friends, not understanding what was happening to me. Now, my best childhood friend who was my maid of honor at my wedding 10 years ago, sort of fell out of frequent contact with me after I unexpectedly had children and she focused on career. Did visit a few times but was difficult because I was dealing with depression after traumatic birth and my mom continuing to abuse me. And so, yesterday when I reached out to my friend, she said was getting married next month. And I was not invited. I politely wished her well. But I am crushed. She's not obligated to invite me of course. But it was without any sort of apology or reason, or warmth, and after not responding for nearly 2 weeks. :/ It felt odd. And so I asked myself, am I the narcissist? Or was she also a narc and I just hadn't realized it all this time? I'm feeling very shocked, and sad, and stuck. People I considered very good friends, since this is happening with 2 other friends, who apparently don't have a few minutes out of their entire week to text me back. But my wonderful mother can and WILL text me every day. -_- I try to be firm with her. I try to grey rock with her. I try to distance myself from her- but there is no such thing. I struggle to take care of my children, and to take care of myself. I said to my mother last year when I was having panic attack, "I'm afraid of failing them." And what I meant by that, was I was afraid of being like her. She said back in a low voice, "Don't worry. *I won't let you.*" I watch your videos and am working with my therapist.. I don't expect response or anything. But want to say thank you for your work. And if you can talk more in future videos on this specific dynamic of adult child reliant on narc parent, and if possible how to distance from them without completely cutting them off - I will keep going back through the many vids you have done already of course too. Thank you.

[@charls5834]

The first step would be to stop relying on them financially. Believe you can do it yourself and you will, after all what would you have done without them. Once you make the decision to be financially independent you can then set boundaries as you will no longer feel obligation towards them. I'd also like to add that I have experienced similar situations with one of my friends and thought they maybe a narc also, but I was only able to conclude after asking her what had happened to our friendship and the response was crap !

[@matiastavil962]

I find this video extremely claryfing, since its not usual to consider peer rejection influence in psychology (though it is very impactful). Thank you Sam

[@UrbanwarriorTheSOV]

Finally I understand why I've had such strong suicidal thoughts 😢 I have never fitted in. My whole life has been a real horror show.

[@tapaswini1999]

I believe that ever person goes through some sort of trauma, either physically, emotionally or both. It is because there are bad or sick people who victimize others. But try to see positive things you have in life. In many ways you are better off than many others. Try to get the strength from people who have loved you. In my case, it was my grandfather, some teachers and relatives. When I feel bad, I think of them. Try to find others whom you can help, especially in times of need. Tell others, especially to depressed people how much you love them.

[@IRONBYRON3]

This topic deserves further discussion...if for no other reason than the sheer amount of self-reflection and insight it garners.

[@federalbranch4005]

Thanks very much Mr. Vaknin. Your knowledge and insight has lead me to a better understanding of pathological narcissism.

[@EboniB]

You videos are like poetry 🙏🏾 I’m very grateful for the knowledge you share and the healing energy you gift through the assistance in understanding ✨Thank you Professor ✨

[@likemyviolin]

Your newest lecture with its contexts, as with all your videos was something impressive, Professor Vaknin. Thank you.

[@flybyhorse]

Oh my. This is me. Incredible! Thank you, Sam!

[@amandaa2119]

Would love a video on peer groups! Thank you Sam. I really love your videos so much. They helped me so much with understanding NPD and BPD.

[@lo6516]

I would also love to know more about peer groups. Thanks for all you do Sam!

[@user-fc4zx2pp3e]

Hi Sam! I'm officially addicted to your videos, and now i'm reading your book. Absolutely fascinating and genius! Thank you for your work!

[@tdesq.2463]

Thank You for this piece of education, Doctor. Seriously, this was a big one for me. Huge, actually. ~TD, Boston

[@Selah1141]

Thank you for directing me to this video Sam Vaknin. I came here from the video entitled "Autists Lack Empathy, "Empaths" Deceive, Manipulate"

[@aahaider4453]

Absolutely outstanding. Watched it twice today. Exact description and so revealing and insightful. Tku

[@astee58]

Very much spot on. Thank you!

[@lisachapple3258]

Professor Vaknin, I'm requesting more video's on this topic, please!

[@superespiritual1553]

This was very enlightening.

[@helyahatefi3726]

Thank you so much, professor and please make a video about the peer's group mechanism or refer us to an article or book. Thanks again.

[@ChildofGod2890]

Yes, would love a video about Peers . Thank you.

[@Kidziel]

Story of my life

[@Kidziel]

It's ok, I'm already on therapy

[@metokpema9709]

When try to refill all the miseries he went thru, he told me « it makes you feel good by being nice to me 😢 like he is giving to me 😢😢😢

[@tdesq.2463]

Sounds like some form of what, in my day, we called "Pretzel Logic" ... which I believe is the title of a Steely Dan album. ~TD, Boston

[@shellae1922]

Thank-you so much though this was painful to listen to.

[@RVSurf]

Excellent methaphore garden of Eden / outside / reality. Absolutely brilliant explanation

[@lucyloo7457]

I think your videos are very informative. I just dated a guy that kind of looks like you. Lol Every-time we went out, I’d look at him and think of your videos. Anyway, thanks Sam, love your work.

[@noemibassal6484]

Be careful...maybe he is narcissist like Laccan and my ex

[@lucyloo7457]

@@noemibassal6484 He only looked like Sam. He was a really nice guy. Well, until he disappeared. Lol

[@danitsikel8709]

Wow!! Just wow!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@_N0_0ne]

Thank you

[@SQ_og]

I am so happy I found your dual mothership model.

[@779RosaPhilipovna]

Excellent

[@gracemissouri1146]

How to stop or interrupt the narcissist narrative in a child, so they don't become a narcissist??? Please help, she's 10 yrs old.

[@samvaknin]

Modelling. Give her a healthy behavioral model to emulate.

[@gracemissouri1146]

@@samvaknin Thank you so much. I am her grandmother but I now have constant contact with her. Her mother is a codependent narcissist and I believe my son is a narcissist also. They both live in a different state from me. My son patterned his ways after my narcissist ex. (his dad) and with held my granddaughter from me so I can beg to see her, and I did. I did not know what else to do, because I love them and I wanted to have a relationship with the baby. It's been a hard pill to swallow but as a loving grandma it's been hell dealing with my arrogant son. Thank you for listening.

[@glenyshill72]

Exactly right. We do often tell or show children and young people what they are doing wrong, but often neglect to model, show and communicate with them a better and/or more healthier alternative/s. Doing 'with' rather than 'to' a person is, for the most part, the better approach.

[@glenyshill72]

Wishing you well :)

[@user-tc9sl9fd4j]

This is an amazing insight into the making of a narcissist, I can relate to this in myself completely. I am however very confused about Dual Mothership, in that once the child becomes the narcissist themselves like me, is there any hope of recovery?

[@samvaknin]

Search the channel.

[@justified2065]

This is too accurate and not many talk about the development of narcissism from the rejection by peers.

[@aleksandarstanojevic4486]

Dr Vaknin, would you please tell me where l can get " Cold Therapy Trestment". I'am from Sebia

[@samvaknin]

Nowhere, at this stage. The certification of licensed therapists has been disrupted by the pandemic.

[@aleksandarstanojevic4486]

​@@samvaknin thanks, looking forward to starting of that program 😊

[@Oliversamuels60]

Hi Sam What if I've always been scared to go down the compensatory fantasy route and be trapped out of reality so opted to avoid reality and people for the most part and try rebuild myself to be able to communicate as myself again instead of grandiosly? Is this a common route?

[@Oliversamuels60]

Also to add I feel like the more grandiose defenses I deploy the more isolated from reality I feel so I avoid doing this as much as possible

[@samvaknin]

Yes. This route is way more common than narcissism. Watch my video on schizoids.

[@Etienne1239]

I have been watching your videos for quite a while and it have help alot in understanding narsisitic personality. I think alot of people watching are either trying to understand narsisitic abuse for reasons of dealing with a loved one that seems to be narsisitic or even trying to figure out if they themselves are narsisitic or not. The one question that rarely gets addressed in all these videos are the path to healing from narsisitic abuse, or reversing it in a personality. How far are we from discovering the answers to this. I think I'm a way my personal experience is that I always hope to find the silver bullet in these videos to find the answers to the many questions, that will untimatly lead to healing of loved one but it doesn't seem to be the case. It's like a never ending questions, that lead to more questions. Do you believe there will come a time when there will be a mechanism that can be implemented to induce healjng of a personality? What is the best case cenario anybody could hope for. Either way the never ending pain of another persons live and the pain it creates some one else must equal measures of karma and effect so that at some point it must end? What are you hopes for recovering as a narsisit? Thanks again for your insights.

[@samvaknin]

I believe you should search the channel. Watch the videos in my healing and recovery playlist.

[@Etienne1239]

@@samvaknin thanks for your reply Dr. I will do so. Best regards

[@tapaswini1999]

A child can be rejected by peers because of racism which can be traumatic for them, even if there is nothing wrong with them.

[@samvaknin]

True. Or because he is an immigrant. Or for a zillion other reasons.

[@tapaswini1999]

Thank you. It makes sense now. It's about my eldest daughter who turned out to be somewhat narcissistic. She was adorable and very much loved as a child. But when she started school, she complained about not being accepted by her peers because of her skin color and ethnicity. She was traumatized and started harassing her siblings as a teenager. They couldn't wait her to leave home. I have two other children who have turned out with good temperament.

[@thodorisdeligiannidis8622]

what is bonbonim & bonbonot?

[@S2023.]

11:11-12:11 peer socialization/rejection, phase 2

[@mandeepkhatak7272]

"Ok Bonbonim and Bonbonot" 😂😂😂😂

[@PhilippMehr]

This hits hard. My question is: this kind of narcessism isnt fully deceloped in infancy, but only enhamced in adolescence. Is it - unlike full fletched NPD - curable then?

[@samvaknin]

The earlier in life the therapeutic intervention - the better the prognosis.

[@PhilippMehr]

@@samvaknin thank you so much for your answer and for the wisdom you share in your vidos. Maybe the Intervention was is a bit late for me in my late 20s, but I was and I still am very motivated. I was diagnosed with CPTSD and Narcessistic Depressive Personality structure. Cant find that much about that facet of narcessism. But ever since that diagnose, I watch your videos and try to learn as much as I can and together with my experience in opera and the cluster-b abundance there, maybe I can help some people that suffer from similar experiences as I did or that suffer under similar people like I must have been So: thank you so much for your work and inspiration

[@marandac6202]

@Prof.SamVaknin Do you still take one on one appointments?

[@samvaknin]

Yes.

[@marandac6202]

How can I schedule one?

[@marandac6202]

Is there a video you would recommend for a loved one who displays these characteristics and wants therapy? All attempts locally have failed to acknowledge or assist with our concerns.

[@forgoroe]

Sometimes I wonder if narcissists are failed borderlines. But yes... I'd be hard pressed to say what's worse (more debilitating). Seems like the majority of professionals--or is it just you, Sam, I don't quite recall keeping track--suggest (somewhat implicitly) that narcissism may be superior. Yet, in the same space, I also have heard that narcissism is the entirety of the DSM combined (which I viscerally and experientially felt to be both true). My self-diagnosis is limited, yes. Expertise is lacking (if near non existent) I wonder if this swinging between explanations/views that seem to contradict each other is a functional way of finding the middle (or the overlap), or whether it may pertain more to some form of splitting, dichotomous thinking, or lack of (recent) involvement with academic writing/literature. But then who's to say that, definitively? How many patients, under the impression of being a bad object, might have given into authority about the validity of their fears/conditions? Especially with no surrounding bit of knowledge that may counter that confusion/doubt? There's like a confirmation bias towards the negative which I would hope professionals may be aware of for themselves, yet... How can one truly know the extent of one's bias may be run from "knowledge" of a subject (however expansive and seemingly complete?) Somehow feels alarming to me. There does seem to be a way of thinking that works best to convey sanity as opposed to others. I wonder how professionals in the psychology field assess that independent of any one diagnosis. But I suppose that's a complex question. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

[@forgoroe]

Ok, think I spotted where my thinking got dichotomous (5th, middle--hah, ironic--paragraph)

[@fivestar6247]

Dr Vaknin speaks of the child who invents an imaginary friend as a stepping stone to some parhology. Can an imaginary friend ever be non pathological? What if a child's imaginary friend is himself the bad object and the real child takes on a different persona but becomes his true self. This eventually leads to the dissolution of the bad object instead of the real child.

[@samvaknin]

Many children have imaginary friend which constitute a healthy phase in personal development.

[@phorestpsy216]

This seems like it'd fit a friend of mine from high school. He is open about his autism, has serious trouble with age appropriate social interaction outside of close friendships, as kids spending time at one another's house he'd often lean on interactions with someone's parents as a sort of social crutch. A different friend got married this past weekend and the covert spent the first 2-3 hours socializing with the groom's parents and aunt. Afterwards he would initiate interactions only with only people he knew well whereupon he insists this age-inappropriate social interactions just the absolute most humbling and, gratifying experiences. I was stuck carpooling with him to the wedding and sharing a hotel room, and when there is no opportunity for supply he is rigid to the point that it presents as utter self-absorption. He insists on taking a victimized stance because my restless activity woke him up in the night (I suffer with POTS) when we have shared a hotel room before and this has been an issue and I flat out told him that I don't consider it my problem until he at least tries wearing ear plugs to block out the sound of my stirring. I just had to use all the glibness and sarcasm in my arsenal to shut down the weird anxiety spirals he attempts to involve me in, such as needlessly coordinating schedules to check out of a hotel by noon and show up at a farewell brunch with a flexible 10am-2pm window. I developed had an aptitude with humor that spared me any real significant experience of social rejection in school even though I'm autistic (PDA-Profile) but my friend just never managed to find his footing when stepping out of his comfort zone.

[@user-ce1gf6jf2c]

Please make a video on how to NOT create a narc adolescent

[@samvaknin]

Search the channel for good enough mother.

[@user-ce1gf6jf2c]

Next video in the queue 😊 thanks for sharing !!!

[@doriwells8863]

Yes… my son was special because he had gorgeous strawberry blonde hair, was skinny, and not great at sports. Now at age 26 he does bodybuilding, has a gorgeous full head of gorgeous reddish hair that is so popular today! AND….has become a bit narcissistic 😣

[@LouiseMariedl7so]

We are all a bit narcissistic at this age, he is still learning... Please keep supporting him 😌

[@Justin-qp4lx]

If trauma and rejection creates narcissism, could you treat it through creating a therapeutic environment where they can experience acceptance? This could mean something like group therapy where narcissists meet other ones and actually process their shame. Narcissists are certainly worthy of shame for how they act, but can it be healed and turned into guilt instead, where the narcissist learns to tame accountability?

[@samvaknin]

Search the channel. You still have a lot to learn, including what is pathological narcissism, actually.

[@Justin-qp4lx]

Thank you

[@777lovlin]

I was diagnosed with BPD -PTSD-ADHD-DID when I was 26 after paying a therapist to listen to my childhood experience I told her I needed her so that I would stop telling friends there things that's took place I did not want to burden or upset people that I wanted to still love me with me so I saw her for 3 yrs I saw her twice a week the first year So when she told me I had 4 disorders I flipped out yelling at her saying i hed taken offence to the fact the she just tried to pin 4 diagnoes on me that all end in the word disorder well I never saw her again although i did leave her some nasty phone messages as time passed and i had emotional problems I slowly digested the diagnoses dort of one by one I am 55 I only realized DID was multiple personality about 6 yeats ago so yes she was right so fist of all the pic on the front of this video alone speak directly to me ❤1000 percent I want a leg to hold on to to stand behind a leg or an arm I want that and I did have a favorite person father figure who would let me hold his arm or his leg when I asked please due to my fear or anxiety i saw him as a protector and he was but sort of reluctantly I like you sam survived unspeakable abuse starting before i had words and c continued till I was 11 age 2 - 6 were the worst the later 6-11 was not so bad to me but only because I was not getting tied to a table anymore that was like a really bad joke I was without my mom since she left me at 12 I never lived with my real father only knew who he was and I have lived in California with out a blood relative since then I have no brothers or sister no children and most of my relationship dost last more then 3 years anyway yes it's true what u said about wanted my partner to help me regulate my self down to ...wanting them yo brush my hair for me or just help me do it I only do it when I h have to and i hate it because it hurts and it is some PSTD horseshit so I whine and cry also I often try to get help with getting dressed if I have to dressed for say cold or an event like r because I have always dressed odd and I dont care for trends or anything else I dress my little girl i dress my punitive parent and i dress my inner old woman ftom the 30s so I always wear at least three shirts and pants with a dress almost always and over the years the comments are very similiar so if i have a new person in my life and they make comments that threaten my personal emotional sense of security I will let them know that it it is really important to them like they have an image to keep up cuz were visiting they're people then best come over and help me get dressed but the rest of the time dont try to strip me of my layers or you will see another side of me that u dont want to me so anyway its a self protective issue for me and I've been like this since I can remember I am from Alaska so even in the snow I insisted on wearing a dress over pants and I through mega tantrums screaming that I am a princess I am not a boy I dont have a penis i did not want to wear long johns due to the boy part so anyway I am. A child woman ban old woman and a punitive parent always always mad at myself for being stupid or clumsy or true open too trusting I thought I was fine untill ten years ago when my false selves plural began to crumble fast all this stuff I had ran from just took over and I found the man whose leg aI had clung to at 12 13 14 15 not a lover I find him via Facebook after not seeing him or anyone from my past for 20 years I found him and I clung to him At one point he said to me listen I am sorry your parents did not love you and I'm sorry the your husband never came back for you and neither did anyone the friends who said that would but you cannot live with us forever I just screamed No I cant leave she does not take good enough care of you you need both of us I won't leave I can't be away from you I will stay with you until the day u die He says okay listen Carol made me say that don't worry about it kid just calm down she will be home any minute just go in your room and blast some music okay ... I was 51 years old he died 2 years later Okay I am lost I have no arm to hold onto no leg to hide behind and I am so stupid because I moved to a rural area with a man I hardly knew and I don't drive a car never had a license and no income just stuck with a narcissist Oh My Goodness All I want is to have a Dad that loves me I will put every one ahead of me I will cater to everyone around me without them even asking i am I he waitress the cook the cleaner you need not ask or pay me I am sick in the head abd like your false self video i must believe I am helping or i fall apart into self loathing