When They Turned Against LE SSERAFIM: A Deep Dive Into The Hate Train

[@thewayifelt]

Do you think that the “Changing the k-pop industry” statement should be taken as seriously as it was during the hate train? I personally thought she meant that within her limits, and that you could criticise YunJin without holding that quote against her - similarly to the “Chronically online” thing that I saw sooo many people bring up about her many weeks ago. I wonder whether that’s an unpopular opinion as well

[@ceoatcrystalsoft4942]

The issue is they aren't allowed to change it. The Korean government is relying on exporting KPOP around the world to stay relevant and keep funds coming in. Korea is struggling and with China and N. Korea ramping up operations, they can't afford to falter and thus won't allow experimentation (even if that is a requirement to stay relevant)

[@l4dwitch]

i have many thoughts on yunjin. i've been following her career since like 2018! it's a vague statement from a video introducing her as a member of LE SSERAFIM and it shouldn't have been taken as seriously or held against her. at the end of the day, FEARLESS is a concept and the unbreakable image upheld by LE SSERAFIM has been carefully procured and planned out by HYBE. yunjin is an idol and that makes her powerless in the large scheme of the industry. i think regardless of what yunjin's own beliefs/ideologies/etc are, she really just wants to feel in control of her own individual STYLE without being censored... i think that follows the sentiment of the statement more, especially given the lyrics of i=/=doll. imo it's unfair for fans to assign yunjin a role in which she never claimed to be. the outrage seems a bit farce but when has it ever been easy for a woman in the industry?

[@wandeeunscripted]

No especially coz now people are taking it as her wanting to change the world

[@JJ-dj9gs]

Just wanted to say incase you missed it but when Somi was getting hate for showing/promoting Starbucks Yunjin deleted all her posts with the Starbucks logo in it. (I think a Fearnot pointed this out on Twitter first) Before she was targeted there were other idols getting hammered down for the same thing. Also the BDS movement has been VERY vocal especially in South Korea. Protest constantly. So anyone in SK saying they “didn’t know” is just truly lying at this point. Her still deciding to drink SB knowing there’s tons of other coffee shops in SK shows she knows what’s going on but decides to ignore it. Her Achilles heel was saying she wanted to change the idol industry. Like you said she can only change so much but little stuff like not getting SB is a BIG change she can do.

[@Things_Are_SUS]

It was a huge mistake, and it will age like milk. Yunjin wanting to change the industry is an aspiration that's admirable, but making such a massive declaration, when one doesn't have the power to deliver on the promise, will naturally piss people off.

[@getobbl]

i feel like most hate trains start off with fans having valid complaints and criticisms, then it just spirals from there and people take it as an opportunity to hate on a group.

[@yaekovmoliski9522]

Not just most, but if at all, every hate train starts like this

[@belphieyiu]

Though I think the only reason it turns into blatant hatred is because of the fans not being able to take mild criticism.

[@roline.c]

Agree Another messed up part about this is that the valid criticism gets lost in all the hate. So the idols won't even know what they can improve. They'll only see it as a one big hate train. Which again will bring the opposite result

[@milie7729]

Frr

[@JustMe-12345]

@@belphieyiuthat should be no excuse..... Constructive criticism is good, blatant hate is not, and nowadays most are just hate.

[@willsmithofbelair]

"this hate train is going to die in the next month" that aged so bad my god

[@mala4222]

fr. With the MHJ vs HYBE thing and the "cult" allegations its been getting 10x worse

[@rainbowsubs2]

It got worse actually lmao

[@Treasure-bl3cn]

Why these people even get the chance to debut? All those saying "they needed time" are you crazy? You should be ready when you debut not after that wtf.,. its so embarrassing!! They should stop and end their carrer,. i call it karma for what happend to NJ and sakura? she is an idol for more than 10 years

[@monsta6501]

@@Treasure-bl3cn Keep talking toxic. Source is coming for your money and will force you to apologize like you deserve to

[@yoshikitte]

@@Treasure-bl3cnyall keep bringing up the fact that sakura was an idol for 10 years without seeing the full context. akb48 never focused on singing lmao. this is why no one like bunnies because what does newjeans have to do with le sserafim weirdo?

[@riybe4226]

I think the fans set them up just as much. Spreading the misinformation that Yunjin is an opera singer, for example, when the girl just sang at school level musical once. Not to mention that she can’t physically be a trained opera singer since vocal cords fully develop for training only by 20. This resulted in the belief that Yunjin is a properly trained vocalist that the fandom pushed and used to mock other idols. And, when the encore fiasco happened, everyone reacted so strongly and bashed Yunjin because of this expectation that she’s better than, say, idol level singers. I’m just glad HYBE didn’t delete and re-upload edited encore like they did with Jimin because that would just make the situation worse.

[@dubyokafor898]

thank you for bringing up the misinformation that fearnots and other fans spread about their idols because it seems like it creates massive expectations that when not fufilled other people and haters will surely take as opportunity to complain about idols skill (i literally fully believed yunjin was like a trained opera singer or at least had some background😭)

[@MrAresxy07]

Love it 😮their own Fandom that is base with army girls is ruining it

[@yangxiaolong3984]

​@@MrAresxy07 literally what does army have to do with this

[@andreinapereira552]

Yunjin is a literal opera singer, she still has that ability. jesus, why do people hate and downplay Yunjin so much

[@nfisking]

@@andreinapereira552I feel like you did not listen. At all. She is not an opera singer. She had classical singing experience. She was an exceptional choir kid. She was not trained to handle the full technique of opera. Please get that through your head. They are not hating they are clearing the confusion. Just as people go around saying that Sakura was a professional wrestler when it was simply just a drama role, Yunjin being a trained opera singer can be easily misinforming as well.

[@idkidkidk170]

I think I was always a bit skeptical of Yunjin‘s „change the industry“ comments. Not because I don’t believe she wants to, but because I don’t think there’s any way she meaningfully can under hybe, and more specifically under Source Music. When your group is built upon your company throwing away their last girl group to make room for yours (allegedly I suppose), that’s already kind of a rocky start to „changing the industry“. Everything else from here just further proves it. But hey, Rome wasn’t built in a day. Who knows maybe she will, she’s only been around for like 2ish years with Le Sserafim. I just really think there’s a cap to how much she can change when she’s under the thumb of Source Music‘s higher ups and Bang PD. If I’m looking for change in the industry, I feel that 90% of the time I’m looking to smaller groups tbh.

[@donaldliden4545]

I think they did change the industry a little bit by their other activities,they done their part in trying to make fanbases stop hate on other groups because they been really good at interact with different groups members and show how there is no hate between kpop groups and therefor no reason for hate among fanbases.Its just toobad they get so much hate now might ruin it for a while

[@azariahcharles3574]

@@donaldliden4545 Their fans do hate a lot of groups and idols through, mostly groups with similar success to them.

[@ayaaburaneh]

@@donaldliden4545can u list some things they did in genuinely curious not joking

[@ayakaimpacts]

@@donaldliden4545 i disagree with that. if any, after the easy mv backlash they just doubled down on christian & catholic fearnots/kpop fans who criticized the mv by "thanking them for the attention they gave". even before that, the fearnots I saw on digital spaces I'm in like twitter are pretty rude to other fandoms and multis. easy hit the nail in the coffin for me, I just couldn't bring myself to be a fan of a group that doesn't see a problem in making parts of a religion their aesthetic, and their fans enabling said group.

[@ringaling3808]

fr like girl you're under hybe literally a company with deep waters

[@tnlkb6115]

I mean they're not the first 4th gen group to have a hate train. Aespa had it in 2021, IVE in 2022 and Itzy in early 2023. It a pretty common thing in kpop that started since the very beginning. I can at least mention 3 groups or idols getting one in every generation. What bother me about all this is that everytime those hate train come to an end, kpop fans start preaching about mental health and giving space for every idols to make mistake and all of the other bullshit they said an yet, every year the same scenario comeback and there little to no improvement.

[@gumkadomazania2538]

Honestly I thought aespa's biggest hate train was around their Girls comeback in 2022 (Giselle mistakes, people being dissapointed with their music)

[@btsismyoxyjin2013]

​@@gumkadomazania2538I honestly thought it was their debut era

[@flobrez2470]

Completely agree with you. They preach about mental health and are against bullying yet they go online and bully these idols. So hypocritical. As a Westerner, the things they bully these idols about are so weird to me. Like going out on a date and then having to write an apology letter for it even though they’re grown adults like the member from Aespa had to do.

[@AidanMoreno-o2c]

I'd even argue that the ITZY hate train is still going.

[@tnlkb6115]

aespa hate train was around 2021 to 2022. One of the longest hate train in 4th gen along side Wonyoung's. With Aespa it started around the Savage era were Giselle sang that SZA song. And it ended right after the Girls era. It was one of the nastiest hate train in kpop. The girls were attacked in every front. Their talent, plastic surgery, body shamed, slut shamed, live singing, stage presence, plagiarism etc. It was awful. I could literally see in real time the girls confidence fading away. Which was heartbreaking since the Aespa members are some of the most confident kpop idols of their generation. Wonyoung hate train was even worse in my opinion. Because she was facing it alone. The level of hatred she received was equal to what blackpink and aespa received as a group. But for Wonyoung it was her only. Thankfully Wonyoung haters were so unhinged that they just end up making Wonyoung more famous with a stronger and loyal fanbase. The itzy hate train was the one i didn't see coming. Mostly because until 2022, itzy was one of the most beloved and respected group in the industry with a strong fanbase to back them up. Actually nevermind, i forgot something. Itzy already had a shaky fondation from the start. Lia had a small hate train around 2020 for being "lazy" and looking like mr bean(?). It was also pretty bad since she started losing weight in an alarming rate. Yuna on the other hand was very much loved...by grown men when she was a teen. Her solo fandom around that time was mostly men. And male fans, unlike female one, are less likely to stay loyal in the long run (especially when the reason they liked the idol was because of their young age). It why the most successful girls groups are the one who have a strong females fanbase. So it pretty predictable that when Yuna started getting hate for being a "pick me girl", she wasn't getting shield quickly enough by her fans. The slower haters get check by fans, the more confident they get. And that exactly what happen. It doesn't help that itzy was losing fans with their change of concept and that the general public was losing interest in them thanks to their frequent comback and the introduction to newer groups. After thinking about this a bit more, in my opinion, i don't think the hate train Lesserafirm is receiving is as bad as those cases. The reason why i think so is because unlike everyone i mentionned here, Lesserafirm hate come for valids criticisms. The problem is that Fearnots took it the wrong way and try to shut down those reasonable criticisms. And i think that behavior pissed off most people that were neutral and that made them stop giving the girls the benefice of the doubt. And then the vocal minority of haters that didn't like Lesserafirm from the start use this as a chance to cyberbully the girls. And since the general public that was neutral were already pissed of by Fearnots, they decided to not intervene and leave Lesserafirm and their fans to fend for themself. And like i said earlier, the slower you check the haters, the more confident they are and the more vocal and intense their behavior get. And look what happened. Now Lesserafirm are facing a hate train were aside from their fans, most kpop fans have turn their back at them.

[@amonrastbrowns]

the sakura point about her having to pull more weight now that she's in a smaller group is something i've never really thought about, but completely agree with. iz*one's concept was a great fit for her, and with le sserafim's being so different, it made her easier to stand out in both the good and bad sense. having to switch from akb to iz*one to ssera would be huge switch ups for anyone, and i wish kpop fans could use a bit more common sense and critical thinking when it comes to situations like hers

[@addyvalencia]

Sakura has been my ult for many, many years now. I remember being worried about how she would fit into LSF at debut, but Fearless era was a hit. My worst fears for her are being realized in recent years.

[@ChiChi-um6qq]

The problem with this sentiment is that she’s not new to the industry, if it had only been a couple years I’d be like “she can def improve, she’s working on it” She’s been singing for a DECADE with little to no improvement, yes Hybe should be providing her the support to get better BUT if after all this backlash she still doesn’t get some type of coach on her own dime what do we say??? She’s not new…she’s had so much time😭 So many artists still take singing lessons at other companies on their own time not just in kpop but in the western music industry too. This is definitely a Hybe issue for sure but lsf as a whole is riding on the fact that they’re a “performance group” without the singing part of the performance. They’ll be at coachella in a couple weeks so it’s honestly worrisome that they’re not even stable singing live while standing around. Again, love me some lsf but they do need work and they’ve been given grace all this while for releasing good sounding music.

[@stnbti3189]

@@ChiChi-um6qq unfortunetly i believe in japan they get 0 vocal training. Produce 48 is a good example of this. In iz*one she barely had time to get vocal training and she had little to no lines in iz*one songs so she didn't really sing. Hybe never really gives vocal lessons, you buy it so maybe then she got some but for over 10 years of her career she never got proper vocal training

[@ChiChi-um6qq]

@@stnbti3189 Not saying I disagree with these sentiments, it’s just that…as you said yourself she barely had lines when izone was active. She could have gotten supplemental lessons if she really cared. The company we know doesn’t give a damn but as a singer who has constantly garnered criticism for this she really had at this point so many years to work on it even just counting the years she’s been active in Korea. I’ll give examples of someone I think improved a lot. TAEMIN! I absolutely adore him, but back in the day he could not sing😭 Now he’s amazing, that’s because he trains. Moving beyond kpop, Beyoncé TRAINS and has talked about it several times. It’s just a thing singers who care about their craft do. Practice literally makes better, sakura does not have natural singing talent but she can absolutely reach kpop standards if she dedicates herself to the process. Taylor swift and dua got bashed for their mediocre dance and worked at it. That’s what I’m trying to point out, okay your management failed you…but will you fail yourself too?? I hope this is a wake up call to all of them because really the only person with an excuse is eunchae because she was and still is a kid.

[@annanowak9620]

The thing is that kpop stans cant understand that Sakura has a naturally shaky voice even when she speaks, so of course her singing voice would be shaky too. This is something that can't be changed in a day. It takes time, but they can't understand this. It's not like she wants this shaky voice, but it's really hard to get rid of it. But still, she has improved a lot since her early idols day, but K-pop stans won't acknowledge this! Like her dancing is amazing! Stage presense, too. She is a very good performer and there are some idols that are not good at rhis. Everything takes time.

[@loupiote2315]

It has nothing to do with the girls, but concepts about "Women empowerment! Artistic expression! Anti-system!" from companies as rotten as hybe is always hard to eat up for me. The only artists who do this concept well in kpop are gidle and boa because the message actually come from them and not from a marketing team made of greedy men

[@bvnditbul7039]

And even they are stuck in shitty power structures.... but yeah fully agree with you. I want to feel empowered by their music but it's just very difficult knowing what we do about the industry. It is missing the sincerity

[@DP-mv7ph]

yeah le serafim feels very hypocritical

[@vickmay3898]

isnt boa under sm?

[@loupiote2315]

@@vickmay3898 boa is a creative director at sm, ofc including her own concepts

[@mayruuh]

I mean, thats the reality of the music industry, be it kpop or other music markets. Images are crafted for them, which can be pulled off or not. Actual genuine artists about their craft and that are really involved into their artistry and messages are quite rare. Groups in kpop who are heavily involved in their songs and image like BTS, SVT, G(Idle), and to some extent Stray Kids are kind of the exception, not the norm. And even them sometimes need to abdicate things for the sake not being punished by the companies, as theyre under contracts that have working clausules into it. And as I said, that would be quite problematic to say only kpop is like that, since even ppl who are paroled as "genuine artists who are involved in their creative process and image" like Taylor Swift still have a quite manufactured feel to it, as she chooses to remain apolitical to not lose conservative fans while shes literally wrecking the climate by her stupid 10 minute jet flights and mostly only speaks up for issues that affect her as a rich cishet white woman.

[@giniesyvae9040]

About Sakura’s vocals, I want to give her grace so badly because she’s not receiving vocal training, she’s never received vocal training, and she’s been singing with bad vocal habits for over a decade-that’s gonna take a lot to change. But if her company’s not backing her up in the training department, she has enough money and connections to get herself the training she needs. I felt really bad for her when she said she wanted fewer lines in one of their comebacks because people criticized her singing, but it recently occurred to me that that’s just running away from the issue. Singing less doesn’t fix anything because she’s an idol-she has to sing. Atp I feel like if she’s still receiving zero training whatsoever, that’s not only on her company, but on her.

[@aeri_taylors-version]

THIS. i know dang well that Baekhyun (THE Baekhyun) still takes vocal lessons, so when Sakura said THAT, my mind goes “THAT’S YOUR TAKE ON THIS SITUATION?!?!? INSTEAD OF HIRING A VOCAL COACH YOURSELF?!?” and then yeah it’s kinda hard to give her grace

[@goldenhourss]

this !!!! when singing is your job even if you are scared of it, running away doesn’t do anything. It’s like me not practising piano when I’m a pianist and a concerto is approaching like girlie.. all musicians need to consistently practice for a reason.

[@mii1853]

@@aeri_taylors-versionok sm stan 😂

[@fimbulvetr6129]

It’s even worse because fans paraded Sakura as a “paragon of improvement.” Yes, she’s excelled in dance and stage presence, and her efforts in growing those skills should 100% be recognized. But girlie you can’t just run away from singing when no matter what you will be singing something on that stage. And while there have been back-up dancers who’ve got major buzz for their SP and dance, those are back-up dancers.

[@elianithaisamejia9447]

Don’t get me wrong, company only cares about money and I can understand Sakura not being confident with her voice when she debut in lesserafilm, but why not getting vocal lessons to improve? That’s the thing, in produce 48 she didn’t have the time (outside of practicing and prepare herself for the challenges) but after Izone disbanded she continued to be an idol why not getting the training she needs? A lot of idols that didn’t have the best voice in the beginning continue to practice and improving themselves

[@catmentality]

about the yunjin situation, I think fans set her on such a high pedestal just because she said a couple of rehearsed lines and is american. we all forgot one thing that this all is performative, it's literally a part of their concept and so ofc a member was going to be the "I'm most rebellious" persona. it's all controlled by their agency and even with things that she does on her, personal songs, ig and all that is still managed by the company. def hold them accountable but keep in mind we do not know these celebrities personally so we shouldnt expect them all to be great people.

[@katgreer6113]

That's what I keep telling them. It's all a persona. She's meant to be in the group as the "western" one, aka the one that will appeal to us. And it worked.

[@belphieyiu]

@@katgreer6113 Exactly, it's almost as if they want her to operate on their codes. I keep telling them she's human and she doesn't have to stand for a "cause" which others are. And when you know Gen Z stands up for a "cause" it's bullshit. Very hypocritical for someone who stands with "humanity" to endlessly target an idol just because they drank Starbucks. It's fucking stupid and I hate Gen Z protestors and activists because they're just radically aggressive for no reason.

[@nnnn-sc2im]

i also think that it had to do with the fact that lesserafim as a whole had been called out for drinking starbucks back in november 2023 and while i don’t think anyone actually expected her to do much about changing the industry, they at least thought she would do the bare minimum by not buying starbucks

[@katgreer6113]

@nnnn-sc2im Was she drinking American Starbucks? Apparently, the Korean Starbucks is independent of what the western Starbucks are doing. Its shares are divided by E-mart (korean) and some other Singaporean companies. That's what I got when I researched it, but I'm not sure. I know that things are different in different countries, though. I think people forget that things don't revolve around the us, uk. Aka the west. Same thing for mcodnalds in Korea, too. A Korean company is thinking of buying it completely from America and having it be independent. 🤷‍♀️ But again, I'm not sure. I just don't want people blaming Yunjin for nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't do in depth research.

[@kunpunko]

fr like why tf do people take that line so seriously??

[@melonramune]

the worst hate train i've ever seen was garam. that was when i accepted that kpop stan accounts are bullies that jump with glee at the chance to tear down an idol. and if it's deemed socially acceptable bc there's a "reason", things quickly spiral out of control edit: not saying the reasons listed in this video are invalid. i agree with most. but for the more hateful comments made, they had those locked and loaded before this comeback even happened

[@melodramatic7904]

For me, it was the hate train against Tablo (the rapper). It got so bad there was an article about it in the New York Times.

[@Raphael-2]

The things I've seen and read about Garam traumatized me. I'm always hoping that I'm not talking with someone who might have taken part in this. The sexual harassment, the +18 stuff was the worst.. and she was not even adult.

[@NoctLightCloud]

you haven't experienced Kpop around 2008~2012 then😅😂 Haters en masse literally bought concert tickets and refunded them last-minute to sabotage the rival group. Idols got poisoned, stones thrown at them, blackmailed, stalked and harrassed. This online hate thing is at least not physical, immediate harm.

[@inplane9970]

Yep. She's completely innocent and her chance at stardom is heavily setback despite her hard work. Even her departure is glaring in the group because 1/3 of the group's vocal abilities left with Garam. LSFM represents everything that is wrong with the KPop industry. Just blindly consuming the heavily-manufactured image of strong, independent, young girls. It's the same with NWJNS. I can't look nor listen to these groups and believe that they're remotely happy at times.

[@AA-ed6ek]

T ara was the worst I've seen. There have been worst.

[@goldenhourss]

“not even jennie’s hate train was that bad” girl you know lying is bad right?

[@purpleeyebrows19]

Girlie was literally getting death threats slut shamed etc I still to this day haven't seen a hate train as bad as what jennie got back in 2018-2019

[@goldenhourss]

@@purpleeyebrows19 fr like the audacity of the creator to even compare 😭😭 im not saying the girls should get more hate but are we serious rn?

[@goldenchipmunk]

yeah. had me scratching my head because the hate that jennie got in 2018 was insane on so many levels.

[@sbcrshfw]

im saying... the hate train jennie got in 2017-2019 was unreal. it still is bad but not nearly as bad as it was then.. there definitely have been bad hate trains against female idols other than le sserafim too like idk what the creator was on when saying this. even the hate thay wonyoung gets is worse than le sserafim

[@moonlightespt3818]

​@@sbcrshfwNowdays her hate train has gotten even worse like i thought that wasn't possible but it has gotten worse.

[@slayygela]

This hate train felt especially jarring for me because at some point everybody loved them and I hardly heard anybody saying bad things about them but then suddenly there was this 180 degree switch

[@FrostyPlayzYT]

the itzy hate train in a nutshell 😭

[@cremline7484]

Its almost always been like that for popular gg sadly

[@visualsick]

yeah it's like a curse at the point, i get worried for every big gg now :(

[@_haloona_]

This is my first time seeing such a large hate train form in real time and its actually so insane

[@thewayifelt]

it was so shocking to me because i had been on and off social media and it felt like a switch had just flipped

[@haewonized]

how long have u been a kpop stan bc how…

[@WooTwiceTeez]

As a 7 year old kpop stans, by far this is the most recent large hate train that I've seen since Twice getting dragged before this due to 'bad encore' plus with hate trains against falsely-accused idol. Personally, it's nothing new. Kpop stans are childish and loves stirring up drama. This is why I'm just stepping away from the Kpop mass.

[@anti_fragile]

it is not unique, it's not even particularly bad in my opinion as i have seen in real time unreasonable hate grow for an idol to the point where they even break down on stage/camera or commit suicide over the levels of hate they receive. i saw sulli perform live before she passed. but it is especially upsetting in this case because valid criticism of their company and its support of the palestinian genocide and zionist companies is now being overshadowed by posts about how bad people think their singing is and how much they dislike their music or their dances or Eunchae in general (???). its like hybe didnt even have to orchestrate anything to take away attention from their zionism, the kpop community did it for them

[@rubysspam]

@@WooTwiceTeezi thought u mean u were 7

[@Dilosch0608]

I agree so much why do they give them songs with notes they can't even hit in the studio 😭

[@bvnditbul7039]

Fr they are setting them up 😭😭 like either invest the time and resources to train them to that level or do the work to find them songs they can do with thwir current skill set. I don't even wanna talk about the eunchae stuff, like that should be a given. Don't debut them that young or get appropriate choreography. It's not that hard.

[@rsfpanda]

i do agree but also practicing exists

[@chimjinxii2130]

Real hybe is crazy

[@chimjinxii2130]

@@rsfpandaNo hybe made them do it

[@skyhamlet2626]

They can’t sing period

[@yannyboy7520]

I think Garam had a more versatile voice to fit the songs they were going for. When they lost her, their singing line up really became unbalanced. Even though Chaewon and Yunjin already sing most of the song, they can’t be singing everything. I mean, those who knew Sakura before know she was asked to be in the group not for her singing talents. She serves a purpose and she fulfills it.

[@aeri_taylors-version]

yeah. i get it now. with garam before they had 3 good singers, 2 okay-ish singers, and 1 non-singer, so they can still cover it up.

[@rabit1377]

Garam wasn't really good at singing live I remember her getting ton of criticism because she was worse than kazuha during their debut when they sang live, she just had more pleasant tone compared to Sakura and eunchae ​@@aeri_taylors-version

[@JustMe-12345]

@@rabit1377sadly we did not get to hear much of her past debut showcase. She was nervous for debut, and soon after the rumors started so she prob hat lots of anxiety.... Ppl were truly horrible to her, i hope she is doing okey now.... she most likely would have improved so much since then.

[@Spiderpunkrocks]

And that's why I always say that it doesn't make sense when people say that hybe intentionally put her on the mud. everyone who was there at the start of the controversy saw how hybe tried to save garam as much as possible that they ended up looking stupid themselves and people even are clowning their statements. And I'm not one to defend hybe cause I would have alot more to say about how they train lsf who are underdeveloped talent wise, but they WANT garam in the group, she's the visual center and suppose to balance the vocal line

[@Atrophine]

@@SpiderpunkrocksNah that scandal was planned af. I understand that people tend to think that companies can’t do much in cases that involve bullying. And a lot of people also compare Garams case to Soojin ( ex member of Gidle ) but the biggest difference is that Soojin was from Cube ent. we already knew that Cube wasn’t going to do anything to protect her, they just kicked her out so they could save the group. Hybe on the other hand is a multimillionaire dollar company it doesn’t make sense for them to let go of Garam that easily and yet they did it just to bring popularity to the group. Im gonna say it again do you really think a company like HYBE couldn’t do anything against Garams case ?

[@b8376]

i just saw a reel where they were making fun of the “changing the idol industry” comment yunjin made. someone commented under the reel asking why op was hating on yunjin and then op responded with something like “aren’t idols human? humans get hate.” if we keep blurring the lines between accountability and hate, it will only victimize the idol in question and those who genuinely want accountability to be taken will be seen as haters and nothing will get done

[@bebebongBaebae]

The way I know exactly which one you're talking about💀. I did however agree with one comment saying that at the end of the day Yunjin does everything to conform to the industry standards(Plastic surgery and hiding it, apolitical etc) so her entire "changing the industry" persona is well just a persona not a reality. I would keep an open mind and say she was just naive about it but she reads the contract just knew that she was bound to be reduce to a doll. I≠doll is a nice song with a nice message that's not really gonna change nothing if you yourself does everything to be seen as a doll to the industry(that to me doesn't apply to fan though cause idols didn't sign a personal contract with you but with a cooperation) EDIT: I came to this comment months later and saw the respond and sorry but that doesn't add anything to my criticism. "Rome wasn't change in a year" and? Yunjin is just another idols who does everything that an idol is meant to. She never take risk. Especially now that we've seen idols take risk against their agency like Taeyong and his post inviting fans to boycott the collab between NCT and Starbuck. Or even the idols who gets married. Or even Jonghyun and Mamamoo who openly talk about their support for the LGBT+ community. Or even Jo Kwon entire existence. Sulli who was openly feminist. All those idols who sued their company for mistreatment. The list goes on cause those are idols who are actually doing things that are changing the industry. Yunjin has done nothing of this sort. I still like her but her "changing the industry" persona is extremely performative as change require risk which she doesn't take. At all.

[@Suxrosee]

LITERALLY WHAT IM SAYINGG

[@hiyylight]

@@bebebongBaebae though I believe she does want to change it esp being an american fan of kpop for so long she probably knows how toxic the industry is..but it was kinda funny to me that she made i=doll when she was really new to the industry and hadn't even got hate yet

[@kiwiwooq]

That’s disturbing 💀 Humans get hate? Since when is it normal for thousands of people to hate on one person.

[@kat6038]

Please clarify which part needs fixing, the mass death threats from fans or one idols mistake

[@madelynmorgan2999]

any extremely successful commercial artists activism is going to be performative activis, because they are performers, and not activists. if they were activists, they wouldn’t be allowed the platform they have.

[@Shts-n7h]

I think Le sserafim needs vocal training as a group( no hate but as a genuine observer)

[@wineandcheese]

I dont think saying someone needs vocal training is an insult. Its not an insult to say you should improve or get better at something. Good/great vocalists get vocal training even though they are good.

[@39myki]

i think this too as a fearnot but other fearnots attack me for some reason, it's valid to want ur faves to improve

[@MilliOfficial]

when people say “is it me or when an idol gets into controversy they start looking ugly” like what ?? that’s stupid

[@bvnditbul7039]

Fr that's embarrassing to say. Objectively speaking there are zero ugly idols simply bc of the extreme beauty standards of the industry. But that aside comments like this are just revealing these people as bullies. They just wait till they have a "reason" to tear others down. Also equating appearance and morality is so stupid and we as a society should really stop doing this

[@dannyburrito7305]

It's the halo effect not working on idols anymore. Like hearing your crush is actually a mean bully, the whole good aura & image just fades

[@belaytriks]

Actually is pure psicology. Admiration/love gives people a "halo" that makes them morelikeable in general, in the way people said a person that is kind usually "glows" or is "sweet" or "charming" they are not necesarily "beauty" but they have something that makes them look "good". Yo know how love is blind? It is the same about people that do awful things they give a "nasty" or "cruel" or "distrusting" or "disshelved" but not necesary "ugly". When something happened that impact yoy to the point to stop "liking" or "admiring" or "idolasing" this people sudendly you start to notice them as they are or in a "bad light" and in one moment their voice is not charming anymore but childish, their antics are not cute but entitled, that answer was not savage but rude, they are not poised but "pridefull" or they are just not anymore a perfect human being but a normal human being with his/her good and bad sides. That is why after a scandal or any flaw perceived by you to your "idol" they become less perfect and more human and thereforth less beautyful.

[@smooth4553]

I hadn't really thought about the fact that companies ignoring their original concept to chase trends really turns me off of their new releases, le ssera included. Why do their creative directors ignore the concept/idea that made their group successful in the first place and just chase money? I imagine their earnings aren't enough to keep investors happy or something, but its kinda nuts that groups producing what is ostensibly art - in the form of dance, MVs and music - are expected to grow and grow exponentially. But it is pretty wild that every time a group gets popular because of their unique or interesting concept like le ssera and "fearless" they change direction to produce their own version of whatever's on top of the tiktok chart. Not exactly a surprise that this alienates fans though.

[@tia_imani]

I can get the cancelling them for the religion stuff, but I don’t get the people leaving them because they “changed their concept.” Imo Le Sserafim’s concept isn’t in the style of the music, it’s in the lyrics. Their concept is that they are fearless, and that is still shown in their lyrics to this day. Easy and swan song are really good example of this. The style of the song has nothing to do with their concept, and even if it did, the style of the music they make hasn’t really changed either tbh. If you look at their past b-sides (Impurities, Sour Grapes, No Celestial, etc.) you’ll see that the style of those songs, are the exact same as all the songs released in their new comeback (with the only exception being Smart). So I really don’t get the fans switching up on them for “chasing what’s popular.” I honestly don’t see that as what they’re doing (with Smart being an exception ofc. That was definitely following what was popular, but tbh K-pop was literally built on black music, so them being inspired by that genre was not a surprise. I was honestly waiting for it to happen). To me the people leaving their fan base because they “changed their concept” just look like people who don’t want to follow them for other reasons that they don’t want to voice or people who have never listened to any of their music other than their title tracks.

[@smooth4553]

@@tia_imani what are you referring to when you say the "religion stuff"? And fair enough, in my opinion I didn't find their new album all that appealing at all other than Smart which was unique (for kpop). And the title didn't have much value to me either. I don't mind groups diverging from their original sound at all but the concept doesn't feel like what they started with in their first few albums in both sound and visuals. Concepts evolve, but to me this doesn't feel like an evolution that even suits le ssera, like how the video mentions sakura's weaknesses are highlighted rather than her strengths. It's pretty obvious HYBE is using them as a vehicle to capitalise on current trends, and they aren't even considering how that affects the girls i.e. straining their voices out of their range could be damaging to their vocal health in the long run not to mention how bad it makes them look when their encore stage is dogshit... They give the girls vocals that don't suit their voices and have to be autotuned to hell so the girls are set up for failure especially when it comes to actually performing live. You're right though, kpop would be nothing without black musicians and artists. In terms of producers and musical inspiration/influence/sampling etc i couldn't agree more. It'd be cool to see them delve further into afrobeats but I hope it doesn't just follow whatever's on trend and rather creates their own trend. It would feel less like making money off of popular black art and more like highlighting black art through cultural appreciation. Just my thoughts, and I'm not "cancelling" le ssera or leaving the fandom just criticising the choices their company make.

[@mayruuh]

@@tia_imani and the "religion stuff" is literally annoying christians complaining about them filming in a FAKE church that is just a set used by major productions in LA. its not valid criticism at all

[@tia_imani]

@@mayruuh I don’t get them being upset about the church at all, though I can understand them being upset about them switching the cross with their logo as that is a symbol of their religion. The thorn crown inside the church was also not the best idea on their part, but I do agree with you in saying that church thing is kinda dumb. Especially since there have been all kinds of movies filmed there. The only criticism I’ve seen is that they were dancing “provocatively” in “skimpy outfits”. Which doesn’t make sense at all because they were doing a hip hop dance, and I know for a fact that everything that needed to be covered was covered.

[@tia_imani]

@@smooth4553 I just wanna clarify that I wasn’t saying you specifically were trying to leave the fandom, I was just referring to people who are. When I say “religion stuff” I’m referring to the people who were upset about them filming in a church that was made for film because it’s a church. I honestly don’t feel like this album diverged from their older music at all. They’ve always made hip hop/R&B inspired music, it’s just been executed in a different way. In this concept, they just went a little farther with the genres. I can understand just not liking the song, but to say it doesn’t fit their concept doesn’t make sense to me. Like I said in my first comment, to me Le Sserafims concept isn’t the type of music they make, it’s the lyrics. If their concept was the type of music they make, Sour Grapes wouldn’t fit. Impurities wouldn’t fit. No Celestial wouldn’t fit. Le Sserafims concept is in the lyrics of the songs. All of the songs sound different, but they have the same message: We are fearless. We’re unstoppable. Nothing can hold us down (plus they always tie in the fallen angel thing). Plus, I find the idea of even sticking to just one concept crazy. Sticking to one concept doesn’t seem like a good idea for the group. To most people complaining, sticking to one concept means to stick to one genre and one style, but that doesn’t create longevity for them. If they stuck to the same concept all the time that would be boring. And once a group is boring, the fans begin to lose interest and leave. And without fans, the company will no longer want to put out the group. It’s like the girls are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they don’t make the same music, people don’t like it because they “aren’t sticking to their concept”, and if they make the same thing fans say that “they reuse the same style” and “they are boring” and “they need to try something new.” And I know that’s what they’ll say because it happens to groups like Blackpink and Itzy and Baemon (even though they literally just debuted). But that part aside, this new album did not diverge from their original concept at all imo. Swan Song gives almost the exact same vibe as Impurities, and We Got So Much makes me think of a more upbeat and fun version of Sour Grapes. Of course the lyrics are different, but I think you get the idea. Smart was completely different, but it was fun and it keeps people interested because it’s new and different for K-pop. Easy wasn’t everyone’s favorite, but as someone who likes hip hop and R&B, I personally loved it. I think it’s less of Hybe wanting to capitalize on current trends and more of Hybe just not caring about how the girls perform vocally. I believe it was this video (I’ve been watching a lot on Le Sserafim lately) that said that they care more about aesthetics than vocals. They focus so heavily on aesthetic, that vocals are simply just an afterthought. That’s why when you look at Hybe groups, the only ones I’ve seen that can really perform well vocally are the svs groups. They had to be able to sing well to debut. Whereas non-svs groups can be mediocre and have good aesthetics because the only one’s picking them are the company. When the time comes to record, they auto tune in the studio and they can worry about the encore later. I honestly don’t feel like there is a song that makes all of the girls look just super amazing other than maybe Antifragile, and even that is iffy. Each era, a different girl does best, and the same goes for this one. If you listen to the encores, you can hear that Kazuha honestly sounds fine because she sings well in a lower voice. But the other girls struggle because they can’t go that low. Similarly, in songs like sour grapes, Kazuha struggles and the other girls do well. They naturally sing higher. If Hybe wants to give the girls a song like Easy, they need to make sure that they receive proper vocal training for it. Sakuras weaknesses have always been highlighted in Le Sserafims concept because this isn’t what she is used to. If you look at past stages, you can see that she struggles. It’s always been a problem for her, and it hasn’t just been this concept. She honestly needs vocal help in general, and the hate train they’re receiving is very obviously the companies fault for not providing that for them. An idol shouldn’t have to take out of their own pocket to pay for a vocal coach, when the idol and their voice is what’s making the company money. The company should want them to perfect and hone their craft, and provide them with the materials necessary to do so. That’s just my take though 🙃

[@evenif7431]

In my opinion Yunjin's song is about how idols aren't dolls for *fans* to f with, not the industry. Which makes all the criticisms from fans kind of ironic

[@JustMe-12345]

Oh... yea, i always saw it that way....

[@Melokotonnn]

For sure. This line says it all: "Go idolize your idle life and criticize me."

[@lonely-weeb6929]

She definitely contributed to the idolizing with her “changing the industry statement”.

[@bbicloiie]

13:16 same, honestly i think yunjin set herself up for this by saying "i want to change the idol industry" she set a high standards/expectations for her fans

[@neb.9489]

It’s not her fault that her fans started taking her way too seriously. Some fans were acting as if she was supposed to single handedly turn the industry upside down.

[@jk2000jk]

I dont think its just her tho, it seems like hybe pushed this narrative of breaking through the industry to feed into their brand and create anticipation for their releases.

[@kaesijoo444]

@@neb.9489i think a lot of people were also upset because the girl is american and doing cultural appropriation. it hurts more.

[@Mayniefestation]

Plus she said want not will

[@Blueishhman]

​​@@neb.9489 why did she say something so impossible then? I don't think she expected this and HYBE must've been behind this.

[@evesyche]

it's hard for me to take any backlash against girl groups seriously because how are we THIS angry and hateful over vocals not sounding perfect and whatever else people are upset about, the internet is all for gRL pWeR until the time comes when a girl group is not showing their best side and then we collectively choose to pile on and on burying any type of valid criticism under mountains of petty insults...a lot of people do not want to admit how deep their misogyny goes because they're not men as if that's enough to make the learned misogyny go away

[@shotanextdoor]

you could NOT have said this any better than you did holy shit

[@MrAresxy07]

It is like you saying a chef doesn't need to know how to cook 😂their main job is a "singer/dance" not a model

[@big_mammas_house2]

i honestly do not think it is misogyny because I have seen boygroups also get lots of hate for their mediocre vocals

[@970404x]

@@big_mammas_house2 the anonymous internet commenters (twitter, 4chan, youtube) and the people that upvote them are just a sad vocal minority (usually young and jobless) that have nothing better to do than spread hatred and talk about unimportant, holier than thou topics. These include racists, misogynists, and many more disgusting ideas

[@ceres_ent]

@@MrAresxy07okay and when you listen to le sserafims music do they sound shaky?

[@franklin_du_bois]

The criticism towards lesserafim is mostly valid but the hate train instantly reminded me of the hate train itzy faced and never recovered from. Now expecting idols to validate your pseudo activism is another topic. I have never expected anything from these idols and never will be. As a kpop stan I just want them to sing and perform and never know anything about them. Ignorance is bliss.

[@970404x]

I don't believe it's valid and mostly made in bad faith. Most hate trains are blown out of proportion and bring out the worst in people simply because the opinion seems "popular" so they upvote it

[@Blueishhman]

​​​@@970404x it's not too invalid to point out the bad encore and **asking** them to get training. They hate LSFM is getting NOW, is definitely not just constructive criticism, it's literally bullying. I've never seen a boy group getting THIS much hate, not even hate they're even getting slut shammed. It's misogynist AND I DONT STAND FOR IT. But, have you seen their encores? I don't blame fans for being a little pissed. So I understand. DO THEY DESERVE THE BULLYING AND HATE?? Absolutely not. But we do need to hold them accountable for the vocals. Because hate ≠ constructive criticism/ accountability.

[@periodt87]

But sometimes especially in times like this a lot of this “activism” or support isn’t fake. There are people who try for change because there’s no other way. I don’t think it’s trying to have “idols validate your opinions” for expecting them to be decent people like a lot of people in the world.

[@SCP3143.]

Agree.I don't care if they drink starbucks or mcdonalds.I just want them to be out of politics and just continue singing dancing

[@chudiarys]

@@970404x girl they disrespected a religion??

[@arimes31]

every time i see a hate train in kpop, i just think to myself, “what exactly is this going to accomplish?” companies aren’t going to change or take the valid criticisms handed to them because they interpret it all as hate, stans are going to continue to be hypocritical vultures waiting for the next group to slip up, the timeline in which these instances occur will still be like clockwork… the only people i can see really being impacted by this are the idols, but let’s be real, people don’t care for idols as much as they make it seem so it’s just ???????

[@mariaclararamosdealmeida8878]

Fr,like i see a lot of ppl preaching about giving idols freedom or help for their mental health,but turn around they set high expectation and dont achieve the hate goes bad. Like they didnt learn from amount of idols whom goes to hiatus for mental health? Or idols whom took their own life? I'm sorry kpop stans says their are better than western stans but everyday its proven wrong

[@neb.9489]

All this does is make them afraid to make mistakes. After Twice got dragged for their own encores, you can see how afraid some of the members, specially Momo, are afraid to sing their encores.

[@mariaclararamosdealmeida8878]

@@neb.9489 For real. I feel bad for them also they way it makes idols do not ask for improvement because they thing will not be enough makes lip singing normal everday

[@Shrekteez]

Real

[@RaquelMarieCR]

Exactly. It’s pointless.

[@jacki8106]

That jennie comparison was not it. You said it yourself, the lesserafim hate train will die next month. The jennie hate train was years.

[@yvesntuaI78]

shes still really successful tho

[@arcnyx]

​@@yvesntuaI78Exactly! The more hate you get, the more popular you are.

[@shibourne2000]

Yeah I'm thankful she's extremely popular and has a huge fanbase to defend her from all of it. So it doesn't seem to affect her as much mentally since she has just as much if not more support as well.

[@FrogWalrus]

@@arcnyx sort of...but not always

[@占-m8i]

tbh with the way everyone was ready to hate and kick out a 16 year old who nobody knew the exact details about her case of bullying, I'm not surprised the hate carried over to the rest of the members the second any of them made a small slip up (aside from bad encores, drinking starbucks is not exactly something scandalous) Everything else the group gets hate for, filming in a church, doing afrobeats/amapiano, etc. are all the companies decisions and the girls have no say in the groups artistic direction outside of writing a few lines for their songs so HYBE is setting them up terribly 😭

[@andreinapereira552]

that wasn't even a real church

[@moonlightespt3818]

Lol no Yunjin, Sakura, Chaewon even Kazuha have written several songs, it's just always the title tracks but in the b-sides they even get to compose and produce.

[@tifm21]

I believe it is justified to call her out considering Starbucks has openly shared their support towards the country that is comitting a gen0cide, but I also believe that it ahould be critisism and a call out instead of literslly sending hate and death threats of she hasn't said anything. We've seen it with enhypen Jake- he read the comment and was held accountable (even tho I wish he hadn't got the hate he did). + Yunjin is fluent in english and knows all the trends, can't tell me she doesn't know about the boycott.

[@katgreer6113]

Yeah I think we should blame hybe fir the church thing.

[@dollie.luv333]

@@tifm21when did they say that?? they’ve openly said they don’t support any political matters

[@esmxerose]

As someone who has lived in South Korea before, Korea Starbucks is not exactly linked to american starbucks. Korea actually bought the brand which is why there is like 1 or 2 starbucks cafes on every road and block in korea especially around the whole of seoul (its kind of funy when you are there and see it on every corner) but because of this people in korea are not really bothered about the boycott as people think that starbucks is just a partly bought korean brand so they don't need to take any action in this way. However the argument that yunjin is a westerner so she should have more education of the boycott and as she is a american so she should join in.... I guess international fans just completely attacked her seeing her as a westerner drinking a starbucks.... hmmm It's a hard conclusion because there are meanings on both sides but in general many idols have been seen drinking starbucks recently and as I explained in the beginning, this is why so don't hate on every idol!!!

[@O.Oxximsly]

When they buy the Starfucks logo the money is transfers to starfucks which transfers to killing people 🧐 why can't you and 22 that like this comment understand this simple concept😂

[@quadling3521]

Oh man, “depending on how the Coachella performance goes” is so ominous now… Wild to remember that only months ago LSFM’s hate train was just over encores and had nothing to do with NewJeans or cults.

[@jessicataylor7068]

the worst hate train to me is Momoland. They went through so much hate in 2018, they were still pretty new and didn't have a steady fanbase. So no one was there to defend them at all.

[@zk6019]

Our standards of kpop idols are very low (they don't have to actually sing, they don't have to be activists), but if you portray yourself to be more than that (as they described themselves as unique and modern), people will expect more from you.

[@JustMe-12345]

No.... if you know anything about kpop you would know the standarts are crazy high. Examples: Illit got hate for a bad 1st encore when half of the group was literally bawling their eyes out (this was shortly after debut). NCT member (sorry, idk his name) gained a bit of weight and was hated for it and hat do repeatedly apologize or explain it. Jenny and Tae got lots of hate for Tae acidentally following her insta for a few sec/min. Literally any idol when their live vocals are not perfect. So sure, if you call that low standards go ahead. I would not want to know what your high standards would be then.

[@erikadi3335]

@@JustMe-12345 lmao. The only high standard in kpop is plastic surgery level. No one expect kpop idol to be good singers lmao

[@Yes_1998]

@@JustMe-12345 it was high back in freaking 2014 but now ......

[@maaars-lc6og]

Not sure why the kpop industry doesn't just adopt the jpop structure of having certain group members sing while the rest just perform. *They all dance ofc, but only the ones who can actually sing are given a vocalist position too.* They already ripped off most of their system anyway🤷🏾‍♀️ And it doesn't mean that the other members are just backup dancers. On the contrary, they're pretty much included in everything and are heavily promoted in other areas like *variety shows, acting, cfs and modeling.* One of my favourite jpop ggs only had three main vocalists. Yet, some of the most popular members were actually the performers, like my bias. And just like in jpop, not all groups would need to adopt this system either.

[@MrSuperjam789]

They absolutely should do that but since K-pop is structured where fans complain if their favs don't get an equal amount of lines on a song, I don't see this happening. LDH is really good with this system(although their newer groups seem to have all the members sing).

[@maaars-lc6og]

@@MrSuperjam789 True. It would've been too much of a big change and definitely rejected.

[@joonsdimple]

yes the lsrfm hate train was bad but you had to be here in real time to experience the Jennie, Blackpink, BTS, Jimin, and momo hate trains because that was intense I truly don’t know how I survived those 😭 Edit. Damn even wonyoung too

[@joonsdimple]

waking up to a 45k+ hate tweet about bts how tf did I not just leave the app. jennie getting dragged so bad by other bp solo stans bc she was the first to get a solo debut before the group could have a comeback oh it was nastyyyy

[@visualsick]

it was worse for bp and momo tho, hell even momoland too. and continues to be bad for groups like lsfm, itzy, etc. ppl always do way too much when it's women. a lot of it is rooted in misogyny

[@1aerene]

Honestly when it comes to the encore section it feels like you’re just excusing why they don’t sound up to par. There is no reason they should be sounding this bad like there’s just none… even parts that are very easily able to be sung don’t sound good, even their main vocalist is seeming to struggle on encores. As for Sakura her being this far into her career and not knowing how to sing even decently isn’t solely on her obviously their company knew how she sounded but some of the responsibility is on her because at the end of the day she is the one going to be singing and embarrassing herself. How are you expecting people to want to spend their money on their albums and tours when they sound the way they do. It’s harsh but i genuinely worry about the hate they’ll get if they don’t sound good at Coachella.

[@1aerene]

like who’s going to want to hear that live..

[@1aerene]

@@ceres_ent I’ve seen plenty of clips dragging them for not actually singing certain songs at their concert and all. Try again.

[@1aerene]

@@ceres_ent I meant to say certain parts of their songs live instead of being butt hurt you should encourage your faves to do a better job so they get less hate

[@1aerene]

@@ceres_ent if you cannot hit the notes of YOUR OWN SONGS live and you have to skip or lip sync the lines live you should not be singing it. FANS should expect a decent level of vocals from the people they’re spending their money on. Regardless if they don’t improve they will continue to get hate for their singing and fans like you are apart of the reason.

[@1aerene]

@@ceres_ent it’s a mess when anyone does it and I never said otherwise but this video is about who? LE SSERAFIM.

[@sonyeonsarang]

As an African, i find it funny that people are comparing smart to water. The only thing thats similar between the two is that they both have the amapiano sound and the only comparison most people have is water.

[@Motherisher]

I'm African too and when I listened to Smart and it's no where NEAR to Water, nor is the choreo cause the bacardi is different from swaying your hip. This is so unnecessary

[@lizzy_21]

I am an African too and it really is funny how people compare smart to water 😂

[@Motherisher]

@@lizzy_21it was just an excuse to hate on these poor girls. Even for the choreographer they shouldn’t have done that. African dances are not all sexual it’s crazy

[@maaars-lc6og]

I dislike when people act like songs using any exclusive African genre sound alike too. After all, two songs can be under the same genre and still sound vastly different, but that's not the case here. No one is saying it's copy and paste, but Smart is undeniably inspired by Water, despite being way more similar to Doja Cat's Woman in the chorus. I think what's bothering people is how the whole Easy EP is filled with songs that *unapologetically* sound like other recent hits (from Olivia Rodrigo to Sza) while ironically claiming that the sound is something *unique to them only.* Kpop always chases trends ofc, but ppl are allowed to voice their disappointment.

[@Motherisher]

I am not going to lie to you when i say i stopped listening to their full albums after ANTIFRAGILE because the songs never really interested me. So I only know the Smart thing I didn't know abut the others. I understand what you mean though kind of reminds me of Bolo by Penomeco and people accusing him of cultural appropriation. it was crazy @@maaars-lc6og

[@exoking65]

Nah Jennie hate train was the worst. She gets dragged everyday.

[@0aihaibarachan0]

This tbh, girl still gets hate even for breathing, Wonyoung is the current token girl to hate on since Jennie isn’t promoting but it’s crazy how ppl which btw are mostly girls would talk about things like health issues, just now some ppl are making fun of winter’s surgery bc little 7s didn’t like the fact girl sounds good live so they keep saying she doesn’t sing or lip sync everything even her ig lives lol

[@sarahg1002]

Bro, why didn't Sakura become a dancer instead? It bothers me that idols don't need to know how to sing, even though it's the BARE MINIMUM for the MUSIC industry.

[@kkaroli.k]

I actually think they utilized her popularity very smartly however they should have trained her to be a rapper or they should have added more members (vocally capable) to Lesserafim

[@evelynmejia2344]

Not me watching this after Coachella

[@rockethyunjin]

you are so spot on about the encore hate train for ssera esteeming from people's frustrations with hybe as a whole. yeah, literally all companies force their idols to lipsync their way through performances - like sm pre recording encores for aespa and starship using their already recorded strawberry moon cover in an end of the year festival, for example, because they are scared of allowing their idols to showcase any minimal imperfection. but hybe (or mostly their sub-labels like belift, soumu or big hit) takes so little care of their idols in the vocal department they actually seem like they regress over time instead of improve, and they clearly don't prepare them for the moments where they will need to sing live, unlike sm and starship did. but to hybe it doesn't really matter, because as you said, aesthetics are prioritised over anything else. why would they care about securing their artists on their singing or improvising habilities when they can get their fans talking about the gorgeous luxury items their idols wore on mucore today instead? they may not be the only ones doing all these things, but they sure as hell are the biggest offenders

[@andreinapereira552]

NCt doesn't have pre recorded encores and they are from SM

[@baoziday5178]

​@@andreinapereira552 I don't think any group has prerecorded encores because you never know if you'll win or not. Cause if that was the case, then they do it all the time with lsf

[@yourname4531]

Gfriend were not technically good at vocals, but they did their job well. However, this did not stop hybe from getting rid of them. It’s a shame this company has become so.

[@SCP3143.]

​@@baoziday5178You are mentally ill and needs to go to doctor.Because what you just said makes absolutely no sense

[@kpopstertube3563]

Excuse me NO ENCORES of aespa is pre-recorded. Stop making false stories.

[@englishblade]

you cant even call it a toxic hate train when in reality all these criticism are very good points

[@yvesntuaI78]

i think when she is talking about toxic she means how blown out of porportion everything is. like when she showed that clip of someone calling yunjin fat. i dont support yunjin consuming starbucks products but calling yunjin fat and calling her out for indirectly supporting a company that supports israel do not correlate

[@JustMe-12345]

By that definition every hate train is just criticism and valid. Like.... you write an essay for school or whatever.... you get it back and its just "its badly written. No original idea. You are a terrible writer. Learn to write words before trying to write an essay".... thats not criticism, thats hate (and sorry if you ever had a horrible teacher like that btw) If you instead got "in this section xyz should be worded differently to convey zyx" or this word is written wrong or whatever. Thats constructive criticism where you can actually improve. See the difference?

[@greenthinggg]

Thats how hate trains start though, yes people had good critiques but that spiraled to hate and negativity where there was no line drawn

[@AphroditePisces96]

The ending of this video didn’t age that well considering Coachella….🥶

[@gabydelgh]

About the ‘plagiarism’ and le sserafim ‘not having a unique sound’, I think we should take into consideration that musicians usually go one of two routes: either they are cohesive through their lyricism/message or through the exploration of a particular genre. Many do both, of course, but they still lean to one or the other. Le sserafim is cohesive in their messaging and diverse/exploratory in their sound: their music always celebrates their own stories and female empowerment. This is like, say, Beyoncé with her Renaissance and Cowboy Carter releases (also no, I’m not comparing le sserafim to Beyoncé’s artistry, just using her to explain how themes can transcend genres successfully). Also, some genres simply have a wider range of sounds/instrumentals/melodies than others, which is why some songs may sound similar enough to remind others of popular western music. The fact that they’re using ‘trendy’ sounds is no different than other groups. Twice, BTS, and later IVE released disco-inspired music when it was popular. New Jeans began releasing U.K. Garage/two-step music as PinkPantheress was rising on the scene. SM groups have always released R&B songs because the genre has always had a big audience both in Korea and overseas. Le sserafim aren’t the first to do this and certainly won’t be the last.

[@LuckyCl0ver]

I agree the mentions gg do take inspiration but it isn't blatantly obvious plus they mainly got criticism for being smart .i think that if it wasn't for the styling they could have gotten away with it. like how txt got away with tinnitus. but also ppl were waiting to pounce at any chance to bring the girls down and I can see it happening to newjeans this year if they don't change their sound.

[@dubyokafor898]

Plainly my opinion here, but i dont think le sserafim's self improvement and fearless concept had a strong enough theme (in the public eye) and the concept itself doesnt feel unique enough to successfully transcend genres as you said since many idol groups (in my small experience) also have similar lyrical themes of being motivational and never giving up.

[@dubyokafor898]

I agree with your mentions of kpop always taking western inspo , genre wise, but when listening to smart and watching the performance its hard to ignore how blatant the inspo is. that isn't to say taking inspiration is bad but that at least let the hype around the inspo die down a bit like Tyla literally won a Grammy for the song like a month ago. its interesting seeing kpop inspiration taken from other genres or artist like Michael Jackson. to me both songs are too sonically similar for people to not find the similarities odd and fans make it worse when they try to act like their idol pioneered the sound which then fuels antis or regular people. sorry for the rant :((

[@marie3155]

I agree with everything you said

[@es-jm5fg]

I agree with you

[@karthikamallan5202]

Hype will rather let lsf sing trendy songs that doesn't match their vocal range, make them lip sync than actually trying to make them improve or give them songs that fit their vocal range. The criticism about vocals is valid because they clearly didn't improve much from their unforgiven encore which got same backlash. And most important, they have to perform live at Coachella which also have kpop groups like ateez. I really hope both lsf and ateez eat the stage up.

[@tapiocapearl0304]

During Taehyun’s Lee Mujin Service episode he said this about covers that “he strives to emulate the original performance as exactly as he can”. And i bias this man but i went “no… that cant be right. arent you supposed to make a cover your own??” Maybe this is a Hybe philosophy thing where they try to copy ideas accurate but dont add anything to it, and train their idols the same way?

[@allelitememesaem3916]

21:42 Sorry but not only is Easy very easy to sing, I'd hardly even call it 'singing.' It's basically melodic rap. So if this is out their "range" as you say, that basically means they can't sing. So lets call a spade a spade there lmao

[@podpoe]

I really love Fearless and Antifragile, and the bsides from these eras are wonderful. Im a bit dissapointed by their more recent comebacks because theyve moved away from their original concept and sounds. Im not on social media much other than youtube but it sounds like backlash was dispoportionate. Boy groups never seem to get this level of hate. nobody should

[@dubyokafor898]

I think the lack of backlash to boy groups would be because their songs are usually not vocally demanding, bigger boy groups tend to have more rap heavy songs meaning its easier for them to stay in line with their normal vocal tone. recently less boy groups are popular as girl groups are taking the lead meaning more eyes on the girls unfortunately. this coming from a boy group stan anyways

[@myittepnymutianguage3238]

The biggest issue is the musical direction, Hybe’s training, and the fans overhyping of the members. Hybe’s training is a rather miserable approach towards training, and rather lazy, as the company basically expects you to be good once you start training, and don’t seem to continue to push their idols skills or what the idols want to train in, and more just cherry picks what they will train with, which is why many of their idols are great dancers but suck at singing and rapping. The musical direction can be an issue too. It’s obvious Hybe isn’t really coming up with any new ideas as nowadays I feel as if every single artist’s releases are being built off of trends or other artists, especially in LE SSERAFIM’s recent EP where Good Bones sounds like Olivia Rodrigo, Swan Song sounding like SZA, Smart sounding like Tyla, and Easy sounding like a way too hard attempt to make the girls look more badass, which doesn’t fit most of the girls as to why their voices don’t fit their concept and style. Their first album was amazing, a true showstopper but as their career continued, it just felt like an attempt of making songs into a trend, from all the plagiarism accusations to the fact that a lot of their songs began sounding like other songs or trying to build off the hype of other songs, like how Unforgiven was an attempt to recreate the success from Antifragile’s success, but it ended up not paying off as more and more fans began not liking their music as much, and the hate beginning to grow even more for the girls.

[@simplyblairestipss]

I honestly agree. As a lesserafim international stan, I think that hybe should really try giving lesseafim a fresh and new start. Hybe should stick to lesserafims original concept like they had at their prime era, antifragile and fearless. Right now, hybes no longer following lesserafims original concept and are really just trend-chasing, like you said. All their doing is following the current trend and not caring about their ACTUAL concept ORIGINALLY GIVEN. Also, I agree with what you mentioned earlier, the songs hybe is giving them is WAY out of their comfortable vocal range, the range they are used too, the one they are comfortable with. I believe that if hybe gives them the right song with the right vocal range and following their "I'm fearless" concept they will be performing VERY well and will enjoy performing all their songs. Overall, this is 100% hybes fault, at this point, they don't know what to ACTUALLY do with lesserafim atp - (no hate to lesserafim !)

[@mii1853]

exactly!!! hybe and source music be setting my girls up constantly!!!! their company is their biggest obstacle tbh… they need to go back to the drawing board and maybe get some females on their creative team because last i remembered it was a man who is their main creative director and i think maybe lsrfm need a woman’s touch!!!

[@animalgacha9154]

I think the worst hate trains have been BP´s Born Pink, Fifty Fifty, Wonyoung and Le sserafim.

[@lettterstocranes]

what about itzy during checkmate era or jennies solo career

[@_Koexii_]

I'm gonna get hate for saying this but what about BTS hate train

[@khouloudaithsain9215]

newjeans eta hate train where they accused them of being terrorists was the worst kpop hate train I've ever seen , even the Spanish locals and news reported on it , it could've genuinely endanger newjeans lives , kpop stans are vile

[@Esandeech2]

@@lettterstocranesits not a competition

[@lettterstocranes]

@@Esandeech2 I wasn't saying its a competition, I was just adding on other individuals who were hated on largely and still are. I would never think hate trains are a competition.

[@Ash2theB]

The backlash from the encore made me have flashbacks to TWICE's encore stage backlash like here we go again. Hybe only picks the best of their trainees but they don't train them to further their talents which is really the crux of Hybe labels. Jimin also has th same issues in the singing department and some txt members which tells me sexism and misogyny is still sad reality. When they debut each member had a song that associated with each member and Hybe decided to venture to far from sun like Icarus which should have been the next concept.

[@mayruuh]

As an Army i gotta disagree a bit with the Jimin part bc ever since bts debut (and he was like barely 18 when they debuted) he's the punching bag of edgy kpop stans. He's immensly talented as a performer but ppl love to tear him apart for a lot of stuff. Ppl used to be really fatphobic to him and this led to him be really harsh on his body and appeareance for a long time, he's not the strongest vocalist but he can sing well (just need better vocal training and songs that dont strain his voice), but ppl pick up his vocal fail moments as a "HAHA HE CANT SING HIS VOICE IS LIKE A DYING GOAT TALENTLESS MY FAVS DO BETTER", and also got MULTIPLE death threats into his career (to the point those instances actually reached him and the company had to strenght security in concerts and sue ppl). He even got his own mail box content stolen by some weirdo in korea and this led to him getting into healthcare debt (the mail has his bills on it) that was used as a "scandal" tentative by the media. He's a sweet person who always tries to do his best, he even said in a livestream after his solo promos that he felt he was lacking and before his enlistment he was getting some vocal training. But i do agree that the hate trains can be really worse for girl groups, especially by those edgy male stans that LOVE to pit women against each other and they dont actually like anyone, they just want to be miserable misogynists that promote themselves as "feminists" just bc theyre into female artists, as we can see when they also can be very nasty and sexist towards bg fans, who are a female majority.

[@Jaya-unlimited847]

He still needs to develop his vocal abilities though. With great recognition comes great responsibility as well. ​@@mayruuh

[@polly389]

@@mayruuh have you heard him sing? boy has fried his vocal cords

[@Wassup.Bree08]

As the comment above me said Jimin isn't really a good example to use to showcase misogyny. Did you forget the wave of hate he received for his encore with like crazy. Or that constant untold truth stage 😅. Female idols are definitely given more backlash and hate even when they do similar things as males. This isn't me hating btw.

[@mayruuh]

@@Jaya-unlimited847 Yeah I do think he needs to work more on his vocals, he also seemed to be aware of this criticism and said on a livestream last year after his solo promos (with the whole encore fiasco) that he was seeking to improve.

[@hyeinstan]

the way the FANS were mad for tylas, like tyla isnt even mad so why are you

[@luciashatter1616]

Changing the K-pop industry statement is basically a go to politician statement from her part..

[@saltclaws]

Hybe truly keeps playing itself. They clearly didn't expect loyalty from fans when Garam's false accusations happened, so I don't see why they didn't anticipation that people will turn on the group again once more unfavorable traits pop up.

[@venusgirlserena]

And they’re the first group to have Korean and International fans stand together and hate them. EDIT : Not to be like this but…MOMMA, IM FAMOUSSS!!!

[@DP-mv7ph]

lmao

[@xsomili5501]

Lmao yea

[@qw9223]

Then they might be right? 🙂

[@yourname4531]

Avengers... assemble😅😂😂

[@aeri_taylors-version]

FOULLLLL 💀

[@umne9262]

omg girl.. theres no way you think this is the biggest hate train in kpop.. ive? momoland? blackpink??

[@umne9262]

keep in mind criticism towards these groups was so unprovoked as apposed to lesserafim

[@mediverge]

ives was a bit less, momolands was horrible but abt plagarism + jooe acting too cutesy, not respecting sunbaenims (untrue), bp jennies was for lack of talent as well so i wouldnt say theyre all unprovoked

[@roline.c]

​@@medivergeI kind of agree that there were some reasons for it's starting but about jennie lack of talent? This argument doesn't make sense since she's considered an ace. It's mostly about being so called lazy, yg princess, revealing outfits, partying, dating, etc And the only unprovoked(??) part I can think of is being inconsistent, because as a fan you have the right to expect a good performance. Maybe also The Idol which was controversial as a show itself

[@mediverge]

@@roline.c well yeah, she was essentially being lazy at the time of performance. it is known she had an injury which of course affects her abilities, but blackpink have constantly been known for putting on subpar performances and not giving their 100% and thats ok.

[@JustMe-12345]

@@umne9262the others hate-trains were no more or less provoked than this one. All start from a small things and spiral out of proportion. And isnt it sad that we are COMPARING hate trains and how bad it was for xyz. Like.... just take this as an example not to join any hate trains.

[@gorillaofjohn15]

Yes many were just hate, but many were genuine and constructive criticisms. The LSF fans had a part to play too, when, at the slightest sight of a criticism, they will jump on them, saying that they are just haters who are jealous, or accuse them of being from another fandom. To them, their idols can only be perfect, and in their so called defences, they are behaving worse than those whom they've called haters. It is a natural result that they subsequently invite fire from all directions. Also, these are the same people who have also gone to other group's videos in the past to post poison themselves. What an irony, but many LSF fans are not angels. No smoke without fire. It is all fair game here. what fans truly hate are not the idols per se, but their fans.

[@soomi]

I still can't ever get over on how tasteful their debut album/vibes were. I thought their concept would be 'high fashion music' or something. Or something about angels, but modern aesthetic. After that their music has been a mess to me. Weird title choices and the music going in all kinds of places, but not suiting the members.

[@kkaroli.k]

Idk I like it, but I get what you mean

[@diggysdungeon]

I hate this view that the criticism of Le Sserafim is inherently sexist. It's because of their chronic lack of skills, the same as it was when Jimin had that awful encore, when Enhypen had the bad Drunk Dazed one. Gender does not come into it, they just suck at singing and frankly it's a deserved backlash. Idols are singers first, without the music there's none of the other stuff they do.

[@cece6652]

Saying Jennie’s hate train is not bad is insane, are you on social media ??? Bc it’s still happening

[@greenthinggg]

Fr😭 Like obviously Lsf hate train is bad and shouldnt be diminished but my god words cant even begin to describe how fucking awful Jennies hate train is

[@sofithemysticalgirl]

@@greenthingggthey’re both really really bad…

[@Ladolcevitaprincess]

This is not the olympics lesserafim has gotten astounding hate from all parts every kpop fandom has spread hate and rumours about them its crazy how you just made it all about jennie and diminishing it

[@lavendervvitch99]

I’m gonna preface this by saying Sakura is my ult bias. But - I’ve noticed that Japanese singers tend to sing in a very distinct way. They tend to center their voices more forward, sometimes even in the nose. And it’s understandable - that’s how most popular singers sing, so that’s probably how most vocal trainers train there. (You can also hear this in Eastern European popular music.) Western singers are taught to sing with their voice placed further back, not all the way back in the throat but not in the nose. Sakura possesses that more nasally tone, which is how she has sung since she was in AKB48. Her voice is also just higher-pitched in general. Whereas Yunjin’s voice is placed further back, which allows her to belt (and she’s had musical theatre training in NYC). I think Yunjin’s voice just fits this style of music better, while Sakura’s might not. Now - she can still learn! And I know she is getting vocal training. But it’s difficult if you’ve grown up signing one way, to switch over. As you suggested, Hybe could also remedy this by backing off of this kind of concept, which definitely demands different vocal placement than a jpop song, or even a cuter concept kpop song.

[@TryinBin8889]

2:04 I think instead of the girl-crush type of self-love concept, such as ITZY and XG, they wanted a glamorous self-love theme for Le Sserafim initially at debut. The girls were bedazzled and bejeweled, stylised femininely and refined, each honing in on a specific high-class-performance kind of area (such as ex-IZ*ONE, ex-ballet, ex-opera singer). On top of that, HYBE tried to market the group as the upcoming trend-setters, with "changing the industry" messages and such. But you can't tell people this group is a trend setter and expect them to just accept that message. The AUDIENCE decides who the trend-setters are, or who is really doing something different. But that glamorous theme continued to crash down around them, especially when the individual members couldn't maintain that image, especially with the rougher-sounding vocals and intense choreography. I think what HYBE wanted- that glamourised self-love theme, made by people who are doing something out of the box- is exactly what KISS OF LIFE have managed to achieve in their own niche. And now Le Sserafim, with everything else you've discussed in this video, is following a similar (not the same, but similar) path as ITZY in falling out of favour with the general audience. I can see them making a recovery, but as long as the money-hungry and greedy HYBE continue to try and push this false narrative about Le Sserafim, the more resistance they will find. EDIT: I want to make it clear, a lot of my criticism towards Le Sserafim is directed towards HYBE and Source Music. Even Yunjin's comments about 'wanting to change the industry'. I can imagine all the things she wants to do, but can't without the green light from her company. Everything to do with 'changing the industry' is at the mercy of the higher-ups, not Yunjin, and so I think there is a lot of irony in big companies marketing their groups as revolutionary when that is all up to the executives who just do what fills the shareholder's pockets best

[@belaytriks]

They started with the left feet. This was a disaster that you could see coming from far away from sometime. First it was Bang PD claiming they wanted the "next BP" when hiring Sakura. Second was the disband of Gfriend and locating then in SoMu as if they had fired Gfriend to give their agency to them. Third. Was the s3xu41iz4tion of minors in their debut. Fourth. The lack of a clear statement from the begining for Garam. Fifth. The continuos bad encores and "improper" concepts, clothes and dancing styles for a minor, it does not matter if she is almost on age, she is not there yet. Sixth. The playback and their own allegations of being one of the top groups but still giving bad encores and excuses for any mishap. It seemed they started at one point to use the "shock" publicity style of YG and Ador. Seventh. The encores of "easy", the pilling of the controversies, the lack of a public recognition for their mistakes in the vocal field to the point that even the main vocal sounds not so great more times than people was willing to excuse, a few not so great answers to the public, their huge endorsments (that I think caused some envy issues but could make them look entitled because they were usually reserved for huge stars), the rumours of the playback during their tour, Coachella and finally the letter of Sakura, all pilled one upon other and finally the damp broke and their agency, their fans nor any "good press" could stop the reality to hit them hard. This was a disaster that you could see coming from far away, they and their agency were playing a dangerous game with their public, the game to see how far they could go ignoring the huge white elephant in the room that they could not deliver their own songs live without any consistency. Coachella was almost the last straw, Sakura's letter was the nail of the coffin, that letter from the maknae a couple of hours after the first performance would generate them simpaty. Sakura's letter should had an acknowledgment they had flaws in that stage but had the intention to do better and real improvement , at least for a couple of songs, a different song selection that make them easy to deliver in their second stage instead to try to make to pass lipsync as improvement could have avoided the intense reaction of the public. It is sad they have take such a huge hit in their confidence but they seems to have treat themselves as performers first, dancers second, models third, influencers fourth and maybe singers as an after tought instead of being singers first. You ask what their company strategy was. I have a theory, a dark one, they wanted them to be victims. Depending how they spin this one, they could send the girls to forced vocal, music and harmonies lessons together with a personal fitness coach so they develop the actual stamina required to dance and sing at the same time while giving them music inside their real habilities, lower their choreos intensity and give them some time off so their next comeback they can show real improvement. Or make them eternal victimis converting their fans in radical defensors that will consume and excuse any misshap of the girls, we know there are some pretty famous idols that "do not know how to use their bodies" and still are called icons. Yes, I think there are some awful messages but really I watch more people defending them, justifying them, they keep selling, they were allowed to present in Coachella with AR mostly, they are still being treated as a top group when any group of a lesser agency might not have survived, they are not loosing endorsments, they are not having to cancel their agendas, they gained fans, there are still people defending them when at the end of the day this was a bed of their and their agecy own made and now, as uncomfortable it might be, they have to lie on it.

[@SakhiSatam]

You seriously summed up all my thoughts about them in this comment. I really liked when I heard a snippet fearless in jungkook's vlog. Yes it was pretty simple nothing too surprising or interesting but they looked sophisticated and elegant. It was a vibe that I hadn't seen much in kpop so that got me interested in the group. Fast-forward to the easy comeback, I was severely disappointed to say the least. I was also underwhelmed by their unforgiven comeback but I still had hope and was trying to defend them. After the Coachella performance, I realised that the company is just trying to make them BLACKPINK of this generation and that's when I lost my hope in them. It is really sad because I feel both BLACKPINK and lessrafim have potential but their companies don't care. Ofcourse every company is power hungry but look at SM despite being a horrible company their music even objectively has always been top notch quality that's why they are the standards. No matter what we feel about the company it is a fact that their groups, soloist never disappoint in the musical aspect. I really thought hybe valued artistry, I was clearly blinded. Anyways it's good to see there is atleast someone I can't relate to. It is really a bummer because I honestly wanted to like them. Obviously they don't deserve the blalant hate but they definitely deserve the criticism.

[@mii1853]

girl the way this video needs a part 2 now IM GONNA JUMP

[@kenna1up]

agreed with everything you said until the jennie thing cause nahh..😭 and i don’t even stan bp. stan or not everyone knows the hate she got was next level

[@greenthinggg]

And still is 😭 just recently does it seem to lower down

[@mala4222]

truly. im not even a blink anymore, but i was during 2018. It was absolutely insane. The laziness, the slutshaming. even bullying allegations. Just madness

[@benji0099]

Agreed. This person must not have been a kpop fan until like this year. Bc even the Wonyoung hate train in 2022 was next level in comparison to this. Not to mention, when its a hate train against just one idol, not a full group, its even worse tbh. All that hate piled on one person is just insane.

[@AEChronicler]

I think, honestly, their management is riding on the "bad publicity is still publicity" train. Not sure why the girls would be alright with that, other than the fact that they don't realistically have a lot to say about the group's direction and decision making. Another thing to point out is the lack of vocal improvement. I cannot be a fan that dismisses nor defends that. I understand that not everyone has to sing like they just drank SM water, but seriously, it's a lack of professionalism and it does turn away serious fans like myself. When interacting with other fearnots, dealing with topics like this just strikes a nerve with most (not all) of them that it turns you even further away because of the strict delusion they have toward supposed "perfection". I think the deciding factor to most fans will be the Coachella concert. We can only hope that they really will be much better by then. Also about the social controversies, let's all remember that idols are never arbiters of morality or truth. Seriously, sometimes it's best to focus on their talents in entertainment rather the political or social aspect of their beliefs or principle. This is still a industry where if you really wanted to stand for principle, you wouldn't be a part of it.

[@Iammvonn]

As a pre debut fearnot dude this is actually insane like you would never thought this could happen🤦‍♂️ and in their prime. i really hope they can win back the crowd with Coachella. Nd if im being right i think their on hiatus rn bc i havent hear anything from them since the end of easy era

[@asserm.8047]

interesting to watch this video after coachella, seeing that people purposefully made compilations of their worst moments just to further the hate train..

[@izzysplanet69]

yk damn well their hate train isn’t worse than Jennie. Jennie’s hate train was the worst time to be a blink and the shit said about her was so deeply disturbing and was just a horrible time in general

[@katgreer6113]

right

[@FrostyPlayzYT]

i haven’t gotten to the part where the creator says that lsf’s hate train is the worst but i hard agree and im a fearnot, not a blink it feels weird to be comparing hate trains, but jennie has been extremely hated for years and is still being hated on even within fourth gen this isn’t the worst

[@Chuu_Vault]

Me and everyone expecting the second part about the LOONA video Felt: *drops about a video about Le Sserafim* Everyone: 😮😦

[@RomeoHatesShrimp]

Hoping she takes care of herself and doesn't feel the need to force herself to push out a part 2, post-bbc loona lore is constantly evolving

[@Chuu_Vault]

@@RomeoHatesShrimp and really extensive like Hi High & Butterfly is worth 2 hours alone

[@Taejiu]

This was my exact reaction

[@za_wavbit]

On the other hand, now you have an extra 4 hours today you can spend watching Goth Haseul

[@Chuu_Vault]

@@za_wavbit THEY ATE SO HARD, LIKE GOTHIC LOONA WAS NOT IN MY BINGO CARD

[@lovelyanne0]

this is such a detailed and well thought out deep dive. i really appreciate this and it made me consider a lot of things about the industry.

[@loonathe_waffle]

It’s been extremely weird and off putting to see tbh. I think from what I’ve seen a lot of people are justifying their new found hatred on Yunjin’s ill timed Starbucks scandal. Honestly, I’m all for boycotting Starbucks, partly because I just think it’s better for people to get their coffee from local businesses rather than mega capitalism first, corporation that has realistically 0 care in the world for their employees or their customers or people living in third world countries, you get the gist. I think it is right for people to be upset and concerned. The problems facing Palestinians are hellish, inhumane, and straight up evil for anyone to bring down onto a civilian population. Doing things like boycotting Starbucks might not be that grand of a gesture in the long term, but at a time when everything can feel so helpless and frustrating, doing a small part like that really can make a personal difference. At the same time, I can’t help but feel like there is SOOO much bigger issues in the world than Yunjin having her Starbucks drink. The hatred that has been drummed up for her just feels pointless to me. You know who people should be rightfully getting outraged at? Uncaring world leaders, power hungry CEO’s, politicians that only want to cause divide and hate between the masses. If I were Yunjin I would have made an apology statement by now, but at the end of the day she is a person in the public eye that made a very poorly timed mistake, coinciding with the LESSERAFIM vocal scandal. I do not believe attacking her will bring anything fruitful into the world except for more and more vitriol against Kpop idols. If people are going to take anything from this I think it should be to look up lists of companies to boycott that Palestinian activists want us to boycott and spread that information far and wide. I do not look at Yunjin as if she is a pillar of morality and she definitely should inform herself better in the future but tbh I wasn’t expecting her to be the most correct person in the world in the first place? Perhaps that will come off as condescending or like I’m trying to get her off the hook, but I think it’s just better to not expect perfect behaviour from celebrities because I can’t think of one single one that hasn’t messed up in the public eye before. Anyways, I hope my rambling makes sense 😭

[@spoiledddbrattt]

It makes sense to me, I agree with you

[@jay-ln9lx]

it makes perfect sense, i agree as well

[@euntro40]

i agree but starbucks doesn't even fund israel idgi why is everyone so mad

[@catmentality]

you worded it perfectly. makes so much sense

[@belphieyiu]

While I don't see boycotting Starbucks as something really productive. It's almost as if they want her to do stuff in their own way, and then later boast about how idols don't have any "freedom". At the end of the day this is all a stunt. Personally I'm Pro-Israel but I've never hated an idol because they support Palestine or whatever because the hate is just petty. I've seen people literally call death upon her.

[@JulyzaUy]

A classic tale of benefiting from your “wokeness” yet not doing an actual action to help solve a cause.

[@meraki4054]

i get such a dopamine boost every time i see you've uploaded💜

[@thewayifelt]

thank you !!

[@abyssalbleu]

I haven't seen many people say this but Le Sserafim's "No Celestial" is a copy of Hole's "Celebrity Skin". It's probably the most blatant copying they've done so far yet it went largely unnoticed.

[@Esandeech2]

Very similar indeed

[@mii1853]

and celebrity skin plagiarized bratz rock angels FAWK THEM

[@isabelaspinelli]

I am so sad to see this happening. They are humans, learning and trying their best. They depend on what their bosses want, but they are women with wishes and needs and ambitions trying to make the best out of it all. We forget we are dealing with humans. I love them so much, they dont deserve this, no one does.

[@toyland12]

Wow, the hate train is still rolling.

[@abf24]

you saying they had it worse than jennie did in her solo era is just wrong lmao koreans were the ones who started 90% of the bp outfit, favoritism, and yg princess discourse and that translated to how they felt about her being the first to go solo. international fans just echoed the sentiments they were seeing from there and made it much more visible. its literally only recently that theyve come to like her and ride for her like we see them do.

[@abf24]

like lesserafim getting criticized for not being able to sing (excluding the INTERNATIONAL FAN attacks on their appearance) does not equate at all with the slut shaming, attacks on her personality, death threats, and so much more shit that jennie still gets to this day.

[@KyliePaz-f8s]

@@abf24your so dense their literally got slit shamed made fun of their looks and to point we’re unknown rapper and gun and hoping he shoot them and so much more girl it pretty bad vaild criticism is fine but so many fans took as time to hate on the group

[@katgreer6113]

I think this youtuber is just a huge fan of them. So its coming from a biased place i think.

[@KyliePaz-f8s]

@@katgreer6113 nah I think honestly lesserafim got good critism but so many groups fandom took as an opportunity to hate on lesserafim it got so bad the malicious comments even I had to log of Twitter some of the stuff they can’t control like the church thing people blame lesserafim when source music should have held accountable like so people not realize kpop idols don’t have so much freedom or control of their concept especially since lesserafim isn’t even a 2 year group yet the singing all them can get better that’s vaild don’t even get me started on the yunjin starbucks I think she should be held accountable but so many anti are literally slut shaming calling her disgusting things when no offense most of their favs are actually promoting Zionist things (Karina,wongyoung,straykids,exo do,etc) I notice one thing too lesserafim have always been the group hate to be dismissed and I’m not talking about actual criticism like seriously just becuase they’re liked by many or should I say were liked honestly the hate should be ok and this goes for all group too they’re having a comeback soon so I hope they learn and comeback stronger

[@greenthinggg]

Agreed

[@schlend4]

19:35 same goes for illits yunah. instead of casting her into a group whose concept fits her, they instead try to shape her into a cutesy type. in my opinion hype should take the blame for most of the constructive critiques that were given. as for the uncalled for hate, I condemn that.

[@ceoatcrystalsoft4942]

It isn't plagiarism if the same writer writes for multiple groups. That's literally how the industry works, in Korea, US, and every country. It sounds like fans are ignorant. Koreaboos can drop groups at the flick of a switch but that doesn't change their success if they keep selling. Obviously "saving face" is much bigger in Asia than elsewhere, so they may not feel great about it.

[@sophietessier8998]

I’m really curious what was their original plan befor they rebrand after garam. The high fashion concept was really cute

[@geminixoxo501]

I really wish they kept it, I know that fearless concept may of not made sense after garam but i don’t get why they ditched the high fashion one

[@sophietessier8998]

@@geminixoxo501 me too I loved the runway show and the old channel aesthetic

[@MGA_83]

Never meet your heros. Just enjoy the music or move on, Stan

[@firavun8943]

this aged like milk lol.

[@nevaminddd]

I'm not for hate trains but the harsh criticism on them is WELL deserved. They had a great run post Garam leaving in terms of popularity but that encore burst the illusion again to international but especially koreans because it was genuinely terrible. Theres no excusing it. They will never be seen as worthy if this is their vocal standard. They debatably lost some or alot of their credibility. Its not hateful to point that out. Just the truth. Personally I dont see how they will get any better vocally at this stage of career and with their packed schedule 🤷

[@dubyokafor898]

especially with Coachella coming up its very dissapointing to say the least

[@JustMe-12345]

You just jumping on the train..... And coachella performance was good btw. Not perfect but good

[@dubyokafor898]

@@JustMe-12345 I didn't watch them but I'll take your word for it. its not a train if its genuine criticism, I wasn't even hating I was just disappointed since their fans hype up their live performances and vocals so much

[@fristiisbae926]

@@JustMe-12345 sorry but it was horrible.

[@madelynmorgan2999]

i haven’t watched yet, but thank you for this video in advance. I wasn’t the biggest fan of the latest comeback but I love this group and their music. the hate train is insane

[@madelynmorgan2999]

this comeback wasn’t for me because the best song off the project was smart, but it’s such a blatant tyla rip off that it is almost unenjoyable. i wish people put half the effort that they put into getting mad at yunjin for drinking starbucks towards doing something to help Palestinian people. I honestly think some gg fandoms are pissed in advance of Lesserafim Coachella and the reach they’re going to have in the west after that. The hate is out of proportion, but if it has to happen, i’m glad it is happening now, so that everyone on that team will take Coachella live performance preparation VERY seriously. no AR at coachella

[@caratfearnot7565]

​@@madelynmorgan2999tyla ripoff? Yeah like tyla is the first artist in history to create that sound idiot

[@Jaya-unlimited847]

If you're a Carpenter and all you know how to do is look pretty with a hammer, are you really a Carpenter? I don't know about the hate train or bullying, but with all the competition in "K Pop" today, I only support and respect groups who make the effort to master their Craft and are good at delivering amazing performances live.

[@goldenhourss]

same. they’re not musicians, ok, but they sing and sell cds and have concerts. are you a singer if you cannot sing?

[@Blakiedoo]

this argument makes no sense. carpentry isnt about looking pretty with a hammer, but kpop is. should all kpop idols be required to know how to cut wood too?

[@rivkeg7599]

thissss thank you! it pisses me off having these (very pretty and talented, don't get me wrong) dancers/models garnering all the attention, meanwhile *actual* idols with the vocals, the stage presence and the dance go unnoticed (like NMIXX). but it truly goes to show that all k-pop cares about is visuals. i'm really being pushed to stop considering the majority of these idols "artists" and just start calling them performers. it's very sad.

[@Jaya-unlimited847]

@@Blakiedoo Are your comprehensive skills lacking or you just don't know how to read?

[@cheeryberrie]

​@@Blakiedoo SIGHHHH

[@giuliaradu155]

this is a really insightful and mature video! i really agree with your takes. i love the group and seeing this mass hate against them sucks

[@nanda_]

Hi 🙋‍♀️ 2nd gen stan here. I've been in kpop long enough to know that hate trains and any series of controversies in a roll 99% percent of time boil down to fandom wars. Criticism will begin and end depending on the proportion of the "crime" comited, and the general public absolutely won't engage with it for that long unless it's a Burning Sun-level scandal. If it's _that_ persistent and _that_ disproportionate, you can bet your ass the reason netizens claim to be mad isn't the real reason why they're behaving the way they are. I can say that confidently too, as kpop fans AREN'T consistent when it comes to what's acceptable (even at moral and ethical standpoints), and it will absolutely change depending on whether or not they stan the group and whether or not their fans and usual defenders are weakened enough for them to be able to voice out hate in an attempt to "smash" their faves' competition. Sadly, this also means that any valid criticism or dissatisfaction will be absolutely squashed in moments when the fandom _is_ strong, as fans 100% attack, threaten and bully people in orther to artificially suppress any remote negativity, even if it's a healthy level of "negativity" coming in the form of valid criticism. This is true no matter what the fandom or generation in question is, it's just the overall culture when it comes to kpop fans. This situation isn't new at all, it will only change names and addresses as long as the industry is the way it is (and, like you said, the only way for things _not_ to be like this is if they're not part of the kpop industry whatsoever, as it's the very structure of the industry we're talking about) Edit: I can also imagine some people will be mad about this statement and tell me not to generalize. To that, I have two things to say: First - I'm commenting about a larger culture within kpop, not about individual fans, so of course it doesn't apply to every single fan. To deny this culture exists, though, is absolutely delusional as even people with only second-hand experience with the kpop fandom (meaning having been exposed/having interacted with it without being part of the fandom) will notice it. Second - don't you think it's interesting how every commenter trying to come in the fandom's defense is always a non-toxic fan? Like, no one ever takes blame for toxic behavior and every comment I've ever read seems to come from a non-toxic fan talking about how _a part_ of the fandom is toxic and ruins it for everyone. If everyone is so wholesome, where does all the toxicity come from? I always find it funny, as it relates to the very culture I'm talking about of being hardcore apologists. Nothing is ever wrong of fucked up when it comes to their faves or them, who are always on "the right side"; there's hardly ever any accountability for their own behavior, their own fandoms or "their own" idols (figure of speech); and the criticism is always somehow invalid, a generalization and/or innacurate. Let me tell you - even if you bully people into not _saying_ it, this behavior alone has proven itself to the prevalent over and over again to the point where everyone that's even been online knows about kpop stans' reputation. Trying to deny it only reaffirms it. If it doesn't apply to you, then you absolutely recognize it is a problem (I know it may sound like I'm generalizing, but I think it's severe enough for it to be the case). If you see the way kpop stans behave and don't think there's a major problem in the fandom, I think you need to re-evaluate if you're _reeeally_ not one of the toxic stans, as you seem to look and incredibly toxic behavior and somehow see it as normal/not (that) toxic.

[@KaffeeBlume]

hard agree on people waiting to punch woman down when the slightest sign of weakness shows. reminds me how in the western market artists accused of being industry-plants are mostly female as well

[@poltergeistducs2948]

i remember when a fan ask for sexy concept for eunchae and all of them got defensive. look manchae now doing smart at 17. the hypocrites

[@kunpunko]

i know yall associate hip movements with sexuality but that is not always the case. smart is not a sexual dance.

[@poltergeistducs2948]

@@kunpunko hip dance is shaking ur ass? and lifting ur shirt you call that empowerment. Tell me the difference of hip movement and shaking ass

[@izonexbae]

I get your point but even in Newjeans I dont think Sakura would’ve been able to flee the criticism.

[@kkaroli.k]

But if you think about it she didn't receive so much hate during Izone (because her flaws were covered and it was different concept)

[@littlecherryflover]

I have a stupid theory that with lesserafim history is repeated in each trilogy - in the 1st comeback of the trilogy they face a terrible ammount of hate (fearless and the whole Garam situation, manipulation with music shows, etc. easy with all the kpop stans behaving hypocritically towards them, criticizing them for things that they turned blind eye to when their favs do it) and with each new trilogy this will only get worse - after each such comeback everyone will predict failure to them, but then with the 2nd comeback they will suddenly release a mega hit that kpop stans can't help but love (antifragile waves its hand), and as the hate on their 1st cb each round gets stronger, their second comeback becomes more and more successful (let's check if my theory will work with Crazy - their summer cb). You know, I just can't help but see this parallels. In any case this hate train does not affect the groups success (no matter how all this kpop stans hoped for it) - they entered BBHot100, they will perform in Coachella in 2 weeks and will gather a 20K audience at their fanmeet in May - the dogs barks, the caravan keeps mooving.

[@aeri_taylors-version]

i guess we’ll wait and see for their coachella performance then

[@mii1853]

@@aeri_taylors-versionof course you’ll be tuning in you and the other antis are like a rapid hungry dogs ready to attack at the smallest thing…

[@aeri_taylors-version]

@@mii1853 bestieeee coachella is a big thing. so many others before Lesserafim have performed there and they performed well (BP, Bibi, Jackson Wang, Bigbang, 2ne1, etc.). obv it’d be impressive if Lesserafim can also perform well there

[@irfanorozi889]

@@aeri_taylors-version Looks like the haters are seated to throw something here

[@roline.c]

My theory is they will push them a lot for vocal training before Coachella so when they perform all the "how will they perform at Coachella" comments will be embarrassing for those who wrote them Well, we all know Hybe, so it may not happen, but I think it would be a good thing to do to 'save' the girls

[@velmuelsmith8998]

I think another factor that we don’t like to consider bc it is kinda a harsh truth is that most of the online kpop fandom is relatively young. We’ve created a space where people as young as 14 have free range over discourse in a very large community. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the kpop fandom is so young. But the power that some fan accounts on twitter have even, would be insane to have at 14. There have been so many big hate accounts that have been exposed as minors. I think that when discourse is being perpetrated by young people who feel extremely strongly about idols (whether good or bad) and often spend way too much time online, there are gonna be traces of misogyny, racism, ageism, and xenophobia because it the discourse is viewed as a direct attack on them and triggers really extreme responses. I’m not saying that this is exclusive to young fanbases, but when you look outside of kpop into other online spaces, young people are increasingly prone to trolling, “hater” and all around toxic behavior bc they mimic what they see on social media. So it stands to reason that some of this behavior has blew into kpop spaces. Right now, it feels like whenever there are actually issued to be addressed in kpop, they are never articulated properly and turn into the “you just hate my favs” convo.

[@escritora84]

I hate the way misogyny runs through kpop - the way girl groups are attacked for breathing while boy groups are out here doing much nastier and terrible things yet still getting support astounds me. I think the critiques about Le Sserafim's vocal abilities are valid, but my frustration is with Hybe, not the girls - a company is responsible for their artists' development and training. With 2nd and 3rd gen, songwriters and producers tailored their songs to fit the group's range and sound - Shinsadong Tiger is a good example of this. I miss when companies spent extensive time developing a group's' concept around their strengths, rather than stuff them into a sound/concept that may be an ill fit. I feel this has been an ongiong problem with Hybe for a minute and it's made me less enthusiastic about their future releases.

[@stormdancer3661]

This whole hate train literally has nothing to do with misogyny. How does being upset at a choreo and the members not being able to sing and a girl drinking starbucks misogyny💀

[@Welchs-Fruit-Snacks]

Maybe GG stans need to start acting like BG stans. Seriously, Y'all always pull the, "But if she was a man..." bullcrap whenever a GG gets drag like BG stans are to blame? GG stans are always the ones bullying female idols. I'm so tired of GG stans blaming everything on "Misogyny" and BG stans like bffr, Y'all are always at each other's throats yet blame men and BG stans??? Really??? Y'all (GG stans) are always so hateful towards each other yet put "Girl's girl" in your bios. Keep BG/BG stans out of your mouth and keep the focus on the GG stans that are dragging LSM on Twitter instead of crying about how BG stans treat their Idols better. 🙄🤚🏾 At least we actually CARE about our idols instead of treating them like clothes then throwing em away when they have a flaw unless GG stans.

[@cutiestcat19]

I think you guys are ignoring what her comment said. There are very valid criticisms, but if le sserafim was a bg these things would barely affect them. Bg members get away with so much more

[@cutiestcat19]

@thenameisseanhong I think you are lying to yourself. So many boy groups have 0 talent. What do you mean jimins doesn’t count because it was solo? This feels like exactly what I was saying, if he was a girl you wouldn’t make up this random excuse

[@Welchs-Fruit-Snacks]

@@cutiestcat19 Another GG stan using men as a shield 🙄 Stop using men as an excuse for your favs lack of talent and their backlash. Y'all (GG stans) do this every time your favs get dragged. The irony is that you're using the classic "But if she was a man 😡" excuse when it's GG (female) stans that are dragging LSM 💀. Y'all do this every time a GG stan starts drama on twitter. Stop bringing BG and BG stans into y'all bs! We have NOTHING to do with this, so leave us alone. "but if le sserafim was a bg these things would barely affect them. Bg members get away with so much more" Maybe if GG stans stopped starting fanwars every five seconds on Twitter and tiktok with other GGs fandoms, Stan their favs without using them to bully other groups, AND learned how mind your f-ing business, Then MAYBE your favs and their fandom wouldn't be getting dragged all over the internet rn. (BY OTHER GG STANS.)

[@juliablue9115]

it's hard to say the hate is not understandable but it's easy to say that it's going too far, people can simply unstan them and live their life instead of making it their life's mission to make their lives miserable

[@tonyn1628]

I would not classify Le Sserafim as well respected, they are just popular. They do not stand out in any area, they are avg singers (as a whole), avg performers (as a whole). They are lucky to be part of HYBE and all that comes with the Big 4 privilege.

[@mangopuddingggg]

Wdym average performers?? They are praised for their powerful performance and good stage presence. Just after the Coachella set they toned their energy down to present better vocals and now they're doing great

[@tonyn1628]

@@mangopuddingggg part of being a great performer is the ability to sing live well and they def cant do that

[@mangopuddingggg]

@@tonyn1628 so it'd make half of kpop performances not good then. Because, let's be real, even if idols can sing good live (without dancing), it's very hard to be stable all the time with a difficult choreo as it is impossible to not sound breathy when you are literally running out of breath due to dancing. The "performance" criteria for kpop is kind of different, like you see western artists don't do a whole ass choreo while singing but kpop performances always include the dance part and also singing supported by backtrack ( a standard kpop performance includes backtrack and it's normal). And by seeing how le sserafim always delivers by their good dancing skills and how they hype the crowd everytime they perform, I'll say that they are good performers with stage presence. Sure their vocals lack while dancing but you can clearly see how they hype up the audience in their performances

[@tonyn1628]

@@mangopuddingggg argument of kpop not being like western is old and over used. There are plenty of great kpop groups that sing well live and do choreo. AND choreo does not always need to be super technical, choreo can also be high energy.

[@mangopuddingggg]

@@tonyn1628 idk about old but it is overused because it's the truth, it's so obvious. And yeah there are many vocally strong groups but if the songs are paired with difficult choreo of course singing with dancing is not gonna sound perfect. And both technical and high energy dances are hard to execute with good vocals, and only a few groups can do that. And I've observed that songs that are popular always have good/addicting to watch choreography, so good dancing is also really important for a group

[@TheRyno525]

The problem with this video is it assumes that the toxic crybabies on social media is what normal people who doesn't live in bubbles think, what they fail to realize is the stuff they see on social media NEVER matches reality, and this video is the perfect example, So the claim is LE SSERAFIM is being laughed at and hated on and people turning on them, and this idea is based on what forums say on social media. So if this is true there would need to be data to support this, DATA not opinions. And when you look at the actual numbers of sales, streams, and charting, And guess what reality say's? every comeback they've had has had better numbers then the previous in EVERY category. So in social media fantasy land LE SSERAFIM might be hated on. But in the real world they are doing what a group and company would call a massive success. Which is what ACTUALLY matters.

[@djterminus]

Exactly. It's all just overblown b.s. from overly obsessed kpop fans who are completely out of touch with reality. It rarely has much impact other than hurting the idols, which is hilariously stupid seeing as how they typically have only minor influence in whatever they're doing. And at the end of the day the niche community of people who obsess over this stuff don't drive sales. It's my belief that these people don't really understand how the entertainment industry works, not just in korea, but in general. Popular entertainment of any kind is selling a fantasy, a vibe, a lifestyle, particular brands, sometimes all at once lol. It is specifically engineered to exploit human psychology for the purpose of generating profit and building influence. That's why it's popular. Yet I think these fans still keep struggling with that fact. They need to either accept it or move on. The very idea of changing it is a fool's errand, because it's the way it is by design. Now if someone is just upset because they feel idols should be able to sing/dance better, etc? Well, that may be fair, but it's nothing to be overly upset about. There's other music to listen to, both within kpop and outside of it. There's other types of content that are centered around great dancing. We can say, "Oh the dancing and singing was so much better in the old gens," but it doesn't matter. The companies have already shown where their priorities are. If stuff is selling like hot cakes, why would they care about an idol's singing or dancing ability, success has already been achieved. I listen to a lot of different genres, all for different reasons. I don't come to pop for "authentic" artistry. Really I don't expect authenticity of any kind from it. End of story. I still have plenty of songs and artists that I enjoy, because I'm personally entertained by them. As long as I'm being entertained, they held up their end of the bargain as far as I'm concerned. Don't really care if some idol is as good a singer as they were made out to be, as good of a person as they were made out to be, etc. I'll look elsewhere in life for those things, certainly not popular entertainment.

[@AnnieSloan123]

LOOOOOOONG COMMENT AHEAD I’d like to add some perspective as someone who was a big Kpop fan for about 10+ years now and actually engaged with other fans in school, went to concerts, bought merch and then stopped in college. I’m a professional now, with a job, and have recently gotten back into it for different reasons and a lot of it is anthropological lol but also because I’ve enjoyed the songs that come up on my timeline. In both phases of being into the genre, I didn’t really enjoy engaging with the wider fandom but I was a quiet observer of the discourse. But over the ten years of being familiar with the dynamics of kpop as an international fan, I think there’s a really important thing to note here; the naïveté of kpop fandom. I once saw a comment that said “you can’t be a big kpop fan while also being healthy.” And that’s really general I know, but to some degree it’s true. Kpop companies market themselves to a younger fan base because they are then capable of passing overproduced, hyper-consumerist and highly polished material as being meaningful and relatable. It has only gotten more insidious, but it is also that aspect that can backfire on idols themselves. On the singing; I think that it is a naive expectation that kpop idols will 100% of the time be “good singers” because that isn’t the job. The job is to become a highly desirable looking object with the look and feel of music being part of the equation. There is a whole world involved in the manufacturing of an idol and, seeing as how this hyper capitalist venture HAPPENS to be in music and tv, then the thing the companies see their mission as is to find already attractive looking people, use highly questionable labour practices to train them in performance and singing, but also literally chisel them into an unattainable standard of perfection while also doling out specified “personalities” for each idol to embody in lieu of their own to engage with fans in other monetised ways in this character ( and build parasocial relationships with them with questionable boundaries ) and with this vibe, that may match the brand identity of large companies like luxury fashion ones. None of this is real. It is literally these companies playing god with young peoples personalities, faces and bodies to see which one fits the aesthetic of the time we’re in and taking advantage of their youth to work them heavily and run their health into the ground by the time they’re 30 for the pleasure of a mostly adolescent and blissfully unaware audience. SO the point I’m trying to make is that because the demographic kpop markets itself too is majorly one of many still-growing young people with a lot of hormonal balancing to get done, the fandoms tend to be riddled with extremes: extreme support, extreme dislike, extreme apologia, which NEVER gets back to the teams of creepy men building these concepts, but to the most ill-treated people in the equation, the idols. To me, this whole situation of a group doing poorly on an encore stage and then immediately facing horrific backlash questioning their abilities, their motivations and whatever, feels like teen drama but blown up to a point that it could actually be really harmful to the people who have the least say in what they can and can’t perform. Like, Eunchae being too young was a problem when it came to dancing and clothing but it isn’t when there’s a barrage of bullying online directed at her singing ability? As an adult, I see this dissociation of facts being purely teenaged. The more you become familiar with the reality of kpop, I think the less likely you are to be angry or even surprised at mediocre singing ability because they have to do SO MUCH MORE than that. Their jobs are not just “singers/dancers” point blank. They are brands, Ambassadors, models, MCs, extras, actors, reality tv show contestants, streamers, influencers, comedians, fashionistas, makeup artists and in some cases producers, lyricists, choreographers, musicians and composers all with the expectation of remaining likeable and relatable while basically being starved. And that’s kind of the consequence of kpop being so hyper consumerist and capitalistic. The packaging will get nicer but what were the core components will become less important. So to see a situation in which a bad encore stage was the breaking point of all this vitriol only tells me that people (and I say this in the best possible way as someone who is imperfect inside and out) were already poised to hate, being insecure about impossibly beautiful people getting adored, will feel righteous in the hatred they contribute to the conversation because they perceive their vitriol as a moral high ground to stand on, “SHOULDNT THEY KNOW HOW TO SING?? THEY’RE DISAPPOINTING THEIR FANS”which is not only parasocial but also naive, as if no Kpop star since the beginning of the genre had lacking skills and as if the genre didn’t always sideline great musical ability in favor of aesthetic. My question about this is always, why force the genre to change? I’m sure there are Korean musicians out there who don’t do pop music and don’t have all these pressures on them to prevent them from creating alternative kinds of music and performing it well too. Because Kpop by its very nature does not lend itself well to authenticity and musical uniqueness, so why look for that vibe here? Why not support genres that already do that without all the limitations? Because you’re not here for that, and it’s okay to admit it. But for the expectation that kpop exceed it’s very strict limits because of a pseudo-moralistic argument you want to make about the great venture of music as an art, then it becomes transparent that you’re only using that to mask hatred and insecurity with something that sounds better than “I’m so frustrated that they are beautiful, adored and cannot sing but yet get all this attention that I Don’t think they deserve and I want to feel better than them for a bit.” It makes me sad for the idols because it often feels like they have no recourse. They are subjected to what amounts to medieval torture methods from their companies and their fans adoration is so fickle that it can be extinguished and turned into hatred in literal days because of the entitlement that fans feel towards idols, a lot of bad behaviour which is FOSTERED by the company (Remember guys, we’re blaming the billion dollar corporations here, not the idols and adolescent fans/haters) that encourages boundary-less and obsessive one sided relationships with the idols. Kpop was never a genre that I expected great musical skill to come out of, it’s performative fantasy, it’s all a mood, it’s a viiiiibe. and fans always act like they’re brand new to that, because they are lol every new era of kpop fans have to start from the beginning because you age out of liking it so intensely once you start building real relationships and become employed, married, have kids etc… and because it’s all online, there’s no centralised community to let people know that shits always been this way. Instead it just repeats and repeats and repeats and idols are always the ones who suffer the most.

[@DizzyLuv0]

WOW! Super underrated coment❤

[@Ruenne]

i love your perspective and maturity in your videos!! i agree wholeheartedly with your points - i mildly disagree with thinking that it's understandable for Sakura to not have good vocals though. i totally get that akb48 would probably have not helped her much there but because she was trained in korea for so long (through produce + iz*one) i really think it'd be impossible for her to not have moments where she saw the flaws in her vocals and did not want to improve. it would've been hard work for sure, and maybe if i was in her shoes i might feel too afraid to really try when it would be easier to just keep doing what worked so far. i definitely agree with HYBE setting them up for failure. especially the idea that HYBE determines the group's identity rather than the members informing it. eunchae + garam honestly don't make much sense in the group, and i can imagine kazuha in a wjsn-like group being so much better. yunjin + chaewon definitely suit the concept but furthermore - Easy was such a bad song for them. chaewon's strengths are heavily in her higher range - her low notes are clearly her weakness. you can see that sometimes she has to talk-sing because it's too hard on her vocal cords. yunjin had it a little easier but it wouldve suited her much better to have some stronger lines. the low range + the whole 'chill, not-trying-too-hard' kind of thing did not work for them. ALSO THE CHOREO FOR SMARTER........ absolutely vile for HYBE to keep doing this (i have never seen them not have questionable behaviour towards minors tbh - i could not watch past ep. 1 of R U Next for example, +Min Heejin's blatant creepy ideas for NewJeans)

[@-Desire]

I knew this would happen eventually when we were deep in the "year of girl groups" with (G)-IDLE, IVE, NWJNS, LSSFM, STAYC and so many other ggs were and still are killing it. We saw it last year with STAYC being dogged for making "childish and noisy" music, IVE and (G)-IDLE for so many things and now LSSFM. As much as I desperately want this to stop, I see NWJNS being the next target. I hate that this is always a thing with girl groups

[@mayruuh]

I feel like NJS is getting a MASSIVE hate train this year bc some kpop stans are just really bitter ppl who hate groups being sucessful despite not fitting their unclear standars of what a group should be. also its cool for kpop twt/tiktok to hate on hybe groups now i guess bc theyre supposedly "ruining kpop" by having multiple sucessful groups (the company NEEDS to be criticized for a lot of reasons like the lack of vocal training and close partnerships with zionists, but it isnt right to project this on massive hate trains towards the groups), as if like, thats not the same with companies like SM.