Which Chaplain is BEST to lead Death Company? (Astorath or Lemartes)

[@phillylawyer]

The fact that it’s such a tough decision means GW did a really great job designing these characters.

[@ba_commander]

Good point. It’s nice to have meaningful decisions to make.

[@johnnymilan6264]

Friday tactics videos sure make Friday's better!

[@Azkaellon9th]

Thanks a lot for the analysis John ! Very helpful 😃 As I suspected, the regular chaplain might be the option I will continue to favour, as per the following reasons : - always +1 wound, which is better than Lance (and let you use the stratagem elsewhere) ; - a budget option, that strikes at S10 with a powerfist ; - Can trigger Dev Wound in a pinch ; - I find the lack of defensive buff to not be too relevant (as per the use I have for my DC) ; I mostly favour using 3*5 squads, with 2 chaplains, as missiles. The fact that they are not the absolute blender they were before is to be noted, but comes with a reduced cost. As I already run more of a combined armed army, that frees even more point to « tender the meat of the target » before the impact ;) I have had good results with the index and this strategy up to now, and expect that the codex will help this type of build even more ! Cheers from France !!! PS: I forgot an important point to consider when picking a chaplain (and basically any unit) is to determine if this unit is a « win more » unit, in the sense that « does this allows me to win the matchups that were already favourable, or does it provide me with options to less favourable matchups ? ». I tend to go for the second options, as my target is to win tournament, and the placing is first determined by # of wins. In that situation, Astorath can provide significant help in any melee matchup. WE can be a pain, and having fight on death plus precision can help tremendously in this very specific match up.

[@andrewcrane5105]

I been using Asorath with a 5-man squad to hunt down big stuff. Lemartes with a 5-man to harass small stuff.

[@stephenleggett4243]

Thanks John, always appreciate your efforts for the community and nice to see my conclusions backed up by intelligent analysis, rather than my "well that feels about right" approach.

[@jimcarroll5314]

We are super cp hungry its a real shame Dante doesnt give us cp like the other chapter masters do. Fingers crossed the sang guard go down a lot in the MFM. I wonder how running a couple 5 man DC as missiles would work out with better weapins per model.

[@ba_commander]

Aren’t we less hungry now with the removal of Fight on Death?

[@jimcarroll5314]

@ba_commander maybe it's a wash, I hadn't thought about that but we still need to use red rampage and probably armor of contempt almost every turn and then we still want to rapid ingress here and there, advance and charge, throw grenades etc. Just would have been nice to bring Dante more in line with other chapter masters I suppose. I still really like the new detachment though.

[@spittzzvi]

@jimcarroll5314 The strategems are only 1 command point but there are so many good ones that you want to use multiple a turn. I only played one game so far with them and it was with the lost brethren detachment. I used rapid ingress the first 2 turns, it was invaluable, advance and charge on a few turns, it was incredible, lost to rage every turn that I could afford it because it is an amazing damage boost, and final retribution once but it was a letdown because I only lost a few lads and picked chainsword models so it wasn't as useful as lost to rage would have been.

[@christiansantiago7937]

This break down is great thanks so much.

[@ba_commander]

Glad it was helpful!

[@tajj7]

The points costs of the new versions of DC and San Guard are going to make or break BAs melee lists I reckon. If those costs stay at or near the codex points for those two units we will struggle I think. If we see around 40ppm SG and 20ppm DC I think we will be ok. As we can't replicate these jump units any other way now, whereas previously VVs with the priest and 10 man JAIs with the Priest were heavy hitting power units in their own right, that option is gone with the jump priest going, so DC and San Guard being priced effectively is even more important.

[@cntipede1000]

I mean losing 40% of the Damage from DC they are going to have to be cheaper

[@scleless1342]

​@@cntipede1000Yeah but not necessarily as cheaper as they should be. Turned out to be 130 per 5 or 240 per 10.

[@Mark.Matthews]

Appreciate your effort and dedication to making us better Sons of sanguinius John. Absolute Gent.

[@alexandermacphearson4379]

Great video! It is nice that one of these characters isn’t far and away better than the other. However, Lamartes model is just cooler looking 😁

[@richardcornes7940]

Excellent video as always! Thanks for your work. It’s appreciated!!!!!!

[@ba_commander]

My pleasure!

[@spittzzvi]

I wrote a list with 60 death company, 30 with jump packs, 30 in drop pods. It may be silly. The new jump pack death company captain giving the unit sustained 1 is another damage boost, but probably less than either of the chaplains.

[@ba_commander]

Sounds a little silly ;) But silly can be fun!

[@sanctdc]

doing the great angels work here my dude, really helpful info cheers.

[@ba_commander]

Glad to help!

[@yungtoolshed251]

I do like how in liberator the Death company can pretty much kill anything you send them at. Most of their melee weapons are strength 6+.

[@ba_commander]

I mean, until you run into toughness 13 enemies?

[@pathartley1430]

I wish they would give the option for on foot versions of Lemartes and Astorath to lead the non jump pack dc. Or just let these models have the option to lead them regardless of their own jump packs

[@ba_commander]

This sounds cool, but it seems unlikely.

[@EdGarnham]

I think they still provide Chaplain aura within 12?

[@BloodBuffalo]

I would honestly be very upset. Lemartes lore is he is a jump pack only. I bought the mini because if his book and the amazing line were describes himself as a meteor storm. Lore accuracy above all.

[@drebodollaz3504]

They wouldn’t be Astorath or Lemartes without jumppack

[@askewmastermind1629]

I think they should give the sang priest the chaplain keyword since they took his jump pack away

[@Raiderman2023]

If you could put it together, it would be interesting seeing the comparison between old death company and Astorath led unit with Lance (about as high a damage as that unit can currently get).

[@tripwire9705]

Thanks John!

[@blakeanderson6119]

Could we also get analysis of the DC captain with jump pack with the squad? I would like to see the math of hia performance

[@ba_commander]

Sustained 1 on 45 attacks with rerolls is 9.5 extra hits. 50% of those would be with chain sword, 30% power fists and unfortunately it doesn’t stack with the Eviscerators.

[@ProjectKRAKEN]

Our factions heavy hitters are still up in the air. Advance and charge makes some hybrid infantry interesting like aggressors, centurions, and terminators. Your Libby terminator video got me thinking about sustain 1 on a block of ten LC terminators. All melee but that out perform the fists on almost every metric. Was wondering if you were tinkering around with some terminators?

[@ba_commander]

I had some great results on 3 assault Centurion last couple of weeks. I do think librarian and it’s a great option for terminators, I just kind of found feeling 10 terminators quite difficult. Maybe try them sooner rather than later.

[@garthbehrmann3463]

Thanks John. I find these videos extremely helpful. My opinion (which is worth 0 since I’ve played a total of 0 games) - Lemartes may still be slightly better than Astaroth, because his unit is more survivable, thus if you don’t kill what you charged, or do and get shot/charged in the next round, you’d have a few more models your opponent has to deal with, which could tie them up a turn longer and could add the difference of 2-3 wounds in the next round of combat

[@ba_commander]

I think you could be right!

[@sketchpledge2653]

that damage nerf to points drop is crazy :(

[@SKARGOTHWINS]

In the Armiger example, I’d like to add that if you save at all on the 6++ that means the entire next Armiger wound has to be allocated back to that model and obviously any excess damage is lost. It could be figured out how to calculate it, but that’s beyond my brain and I hope you get it.

[@SKARGOTHWINS]

Point being, Lemartes shines brighter in this situation. Can’t edit at the moment.

[@ba_commander]

Can you elaborate please?

[@billdozer93]

Reporting back after LAG play test, two max squads of death company, one with Astorath and one with Lemartes. The new advance and charge is nice. Astorath's squad killed 3 scarab termies between shooting and melee. That's about how the rest of the game went. Fingers crossed for points drops. I did enjoy the stratagems.

[@ba_commander]

Ouch, sounds like you had a tough game? What was the final score?

[@mtymus]

I am going for both.

[@redcovenant]

Both? 🩸

[@redcovenant]

I’ve played 2 games with LAG running two full DC units, one with each named chaplain. Found that they’ve behaved similarly to your maths. Lemartes is a better tank for absorbing damage and surviving, especially from shooting. Astorath is a bit more lethal, esp against units with invulns and there are enough of those. I’m hoping they’ll stick to the Codex points, 230 for 10 seems fair. For that or less I’d run 2 or 3 units. If they’re 240+ I’d probably just take 1. Regular chaplains (on foot, jump pack, terminators) are all massively underrated I feel. The +1 to wound really stacks well with the LAG strength buff. Wounding terminators on 2s with chainswords? Yes please 🩸

[@TheSharkticon]

I feel you want two units of DC, and both

[@xBeasTBeaR]

Going in with both 🩸

[@tajj7]

So around 40% ish less melee power and 6 special pistols as well, not hard to argue that Death Company are about 50% as powerful as they were. Feel this means we are going to need to see 100pts for 5 or lower I reckon for them to be good. A drop from 28ppm to 23ppm is not enough for that loss of power. Though it should be noted that on release they were an absurd 155pts for 5. So if the codex points are based on that, then it is a 40pt drop for 5 models, which on the current cost of 140pts would put them at 100pts for 5, which I think would make them good, maybe not must take and have multiple in every list but good to have 10 led by a character and get decent value from them, maybe even 2 squads of 10.

[@franespinosa4686]

​​@@tajj7 At 100 per 5 I think they would be too strong, since assault intercessors with jump packs are extremely strong right now at 80 points, and death company have quite a lot of extra damage over them, but it's true that they don't scale that great in big units as they used to, but they would be great as cheap, mobile trade pieces

[@tajj7]

@@franespinosa4686 They are T4, 2W marines at the end of day with no OC and no fall back if you don't add at least 75pts of characters to them. Got to remember like BTs are running primaris crusader squads at 14ppm, a squad of 10 of them has a power weapon, 2 power fists, they also re-roll advances and charges. Current DC with every model having a PF and IP is 28ppm, they have lost around 40-45% of the melee power and about 60% of their shooting power, as well as not re-rolling hits in shooting as well. Dropping to 20ppm a model seems logical to me when they have lost 50% of more of their offensive output and their special rule has got a bit worse, that is losing about 30% of their cost for half their offensive power.

[@franespinosa4686]

@@tajj7 I think it's not fair to compare them to the old DC points since they were extremely strong at their cost being a vital part of one of the best armies, they were due for a medium to large points increase, so if you factor that in, the decrease in points while keeping the full durability(a Squad with lemartes is very resilient at their points) is fine, if you compare them to crusader Squads, they have twice the movility and quite a bit extra damage per model, since the DC has both better weapons and natural rerrols to hit

[@tajj7]

@@franespinosa4686 They had already had a points increase, both Lemartes and the DC went up in the dataslate before last, they were left alone in the most recent dataslate which suggest GW didn't think they were OP and the army has done worse since then. Index BAs is like a 51% win rate army in Sons not a 55% plus. That units was 400 pts already, you can't start pushing 2 wound, t4 marines with no invul or 2+ to like over 30ppm, that is absurd. They were already really expensive, sure they had a lot of power but they are complete glass cannons. Plus BAs can't use VVs or JAIs in big blobs anymore because the san priest with JP has gone. Most tournament winning BAs lists that were doing well spring/summer, had like 20 DC with JPs, and usually 2 x 10 VVs with JPs and SPs attached, plus often a 10 man JAIs squad with SP as well. So were rocking like 50+ JP troops, half of which were attacking with S10 PFs and the army was still below the top armies like Sisters, Tsons, etc. Now pretty much all that power has gone, DC are literally HALF the power and VV/JAis blobs are gone. We need DC to appropriately priced along with San Guard for proper BAs list to be any good. If DC are 115pts for 5 they will suck, that is 330 pts for a unit of 10 with Lemartes (if he stays at 100), so a 70pt drop on a unit that is HALF as effective, that is crap and far too expensive. If DC are 115pts for 5 and San Guard are above 45ppm we will be sub 45% win rate faction. Got to remember that half the DC squad now are basically worse Jump intercessors, and jump intercessors are 16ppm. Paying 23ppm when half your squad is a guy with a chainsword and no OC is really bad value.

[@jamesnigelkunjuro12]

Thanks for another great video. I have a theoretical I'd like to ask though: in your experience, how many Targets does a 10 man death company and lemartes can't kill in one turn? I imagine stuff like Knights or -1 damage shenanigans units can survive, but the thing I was considering in my head is if Astorath provides a ton of overkill for weaker targets, then lemartes' survivability might be more beneficial after that initial fight phase. Regardless, am keen to try both out for myself!

[@scleless1342]

It reminds me a lot of the dilemma Grey Knights players have with Terminators vs Paladins. Terminators have one psycannon (2x for 10 man), 3 OC, lethal hits on the charge and can res a model per turn. Paladins have 3x psycannon (5x for 10 man) 2 OC, hit on 2s not 3s and get -1 to wound from any attack with higher strength than tgeir toughness. Factor in the usual characters: Draigo for Terms gives +3 to deepbstrike charge once per game and Voldus goves -1 to hit (or Grandmaster gives ignore all negative modifiers and once per game free strat) So its basically "higher OC, do a ton of damage on one almost guaranteed charge attack and retreat to ressurect if you survive" vs "more high strength firepower (5 psucannon vs 2 on 10 man), more accurate hitting on 2s amd a ton more durable so dont need to ressurect" Essentially the terms blow their dmg load all at once on the charge but the paladins are super tough but dont rely on charge to hit so do more consistent melee damage. I like running both, either 10 man term with draigo amd 5 man paladin with voldus or 5 man term with draigo amd 10 man paladin with a Grandmaster for 6th cannon and free strat/ignore mods.

[@Turk3YbAstEr]

I'm thinking both.

[@davidspencer4938]

Hi brothers. Can someone please explain Johns comments at 6mins and 13s when he says 'you go back to lethals in/on lance' Thank you

[@stevenburton7725]

As I am running Lost Brethren, I don’t have to choose!

[@jcpcelt]

Death Company haven’t lost rerolls to hit in the shooting phase - ‘Black Rage - Each time a model in this unit makes an attack, you can re-roll the hit roll’

[@ba_commander]

They have, are you sure you have the most updated rules?

[@WarThunder-zt4xw]

John great info Thankyou! I bought this kit and I was thinking about splitting the squad into two 5-man units. One with Astorath attached and one with Lemartes. Do you think that method will pay off strategically as opposed to one 10-man?

[@ba_commander]

Hard to say. Usually when I got for 5 man squads I want cheap points leaders, worth testing though!

[@WarThunder-zt4xw]

@@ba_commander yes I agree! Maybe add a 10-man DC squad of foot w/ a Primaris chap attached riding a Repulsor? That run up the center objective, place both 5-man with jumps in reserve, round out with 2 impulses w/ assault intercessors and a Ballistus dread

[@aheroforfun6401]

Some of this will depend on points costs, which may get a day 1 Field Manual update from what's in the Codex, who knows. But it seems Lemartes+DC is better defensively, while Astorath+DC is slightly better offensively. It's probably better to use Lemartes for 10-man units (so his -1 Damage buff lasts as many phases as possible), and it's probably better to use Astorath for 5-man units (because DC without defensive buffs are probably short-lived anyway, and also Astorath is a little bit more of a beatstick on his own than Lemartes).

[@ba_commander]

Apparently the MFM points are coming on the 17th!

[@sam_r3591]

Be intresting to know if a standard Chaplin out damages Lemates with the +1 to wound ?

[@ba_commander]

You can see it on the slide with the yellow right.

[@cognosciento]

@@ba_commander Chaplain with JP may get you some mortals every fight (not just charge) and saves you the CP, which you might need for fall back and charge.

[@ryannelson7719]

Only in death does duty end

[@jonesysavespeely]

Why not use 2x10 death company and use both characters.

[@ba_commander]

@@jonesysavespeely I mean you can. I prefer to only run 10 DC marines personally.

[@jonesysavespeely]

@@ba_commander fairs

[@cognosciento]

How about the codex Chaplain With Jump Pack? +1 to wound is nice, and he brings a chance of mortals every fight phase, not just on the charge. Solid?

[@ba_commander]

Yeah, I mean it is solid,, I used it to a GT in July, 2 x 5 man with generic chaplains. I think if you’re doing the fives, it makes sense to use the cheap ones.

[@Behindthejab]

I was going to do two ten man death company and take both lol

[@ba_commander]

Do it!!!

[@delta35thereal]

Isnt taking lance and lethal a bit redundant? You get +1 to wound from lance, but if you get lethals, the damage is automatic on hit and +1 to wounds effect is lost on it

[@nomassgoer8350]

It is redundant. How many times have dumped a ton of dice and not one 6? It’s to help mitigate those situations.

[@ba_commander]

It has diminishing returns, but I don’t think it’s ever redundant.

[@EdGarnham]

I thought 10 man DC could have 4 power fists total. Am I missing something? For every 5 you get a plasma pistol, 1 power fist and 1 dude with the double option (fist and inferno)

[@ba_commander]

It’s super confusing, but unfortunately 10 Man can just take three.

[@Syst3m04]

Can anyone clarify this for me. If you have Lethal hits and Dev Wounds, then your Lethals are just stand lard wounds correct, they do not become Dev Wounds?

[@ba_commander]

Correct. So lethal can hurt your potential to get devs.

[@Syst3m04]

@@ba_commander Thanks for clarifying that for me 😁

[@Mark.Matthews]

Do yiu think i should not bother with the dc on foot from the fomo box and just pisnt them as intercessors then? Thanks

[@ba_commander]

I am not necessarily the gospel on this, but right now I’m not using them.

[@ToddGrindle]

3d print jump packs

[@521wallace]

Is the DC Captain that gives Sustained ever worth it?

[@ba_commander]

I'm currently not seeing it, I always prefer my DC to have OC and be able to fall back.

[@aheroforfun6401]

@@ba_commander Bingo. Astorath, Lemartes, and a JP Chaplain are all viable choices in one way or another. The DC Captains are kinda cool but not very useful. If they could just give OC but not fall back (or vice versa) I might consider it.

[@oscarnygren5851]

What about one 5-man squad with each? Easier to hide since i want to Rapid ingress a 10 man squad with terminators + chaplain :x

[@ba_commander]

When I was doing it before the codex, I preferred the cheap chaplains to run with a five man.

[@oscarnygren5851]

@@ba_commander mmm fair enough. :) thank you for answer. not as cool though xD

[@ssmedja]

Isn't the new blood angels codex released already?

[@ba_commander]

Yes but points costs aren't finalized.

[@RAINBOWBEARMAN]

i have not been seeing ppl use the sang guard recently. are we still waiting on points or do they have other problems?

[@ba_commander]

I've been using 6 + Dante in my last 2 live battle reports.

[@RAINBOWBEARMAN]

@@ba_commander awesome to know. thx

[@keith_makes_stuff]

Be interesting to hear your thoughts now Lemartes is 110pts to Astorath's 105pts.

[@ba_commander]

Nothing changes really still both great picks. Either is fine.

[@BearSonOfBear]

Lore accurate Astorath kills your entire Death Company before they get across the board.

[@ToddGrindle]

Completely points dependent... But i wanna run 2 squads, 1 with each of these options

[@rlira0908]

the real question imo is: are Death Company JPs worth running anymore?

[@ba_commander]

I think so for the speed and rapid ingress threat, but I’m not running more than 10 personally.

[@DrAculushka]

Best chaplain is one you like the most. Change my mind!

[@NicC49]

Average 40% decreased damage from before is crazy. I really hope a new squad isn't more than 200 points. Edit: This is because 2 good chaplains make me want to run 2 10man squads)

[@ba_commander]

That's before the pistol loss.

[@Guo1234bob]

Why not both?

[@justicar5]

Why not both? Both is good.

[@michaeltei4173]

Astorah hits like a truck Lem can take a hit thats how I see it

[@michelepicano4552]

Shouldn’t be 12A of powerfist ? You have counted 8

[@ba_commander]

Yes got damn the new confusing weapon options!

[@Chasemcloud5745]

Anyone else who has played LAG: anyone else feel like death company aren’t a great unit anymore? Eviscorators feel weak and missing so Many power fists as well. I wonder whether multiple squads of blade guard are better?

[@aheroforfun6401]

I think SG are gonna be the new meta. DC got directly weakened. VanVets got indirectly weakened (no SangPriest). And JP Intercessors were simply never in the same league. The new SG are looking to be a little too expensive points-wise. But believe there will be a Munitorum Field Manual update early on, possibly Day 1 of the new Codex.

[@Chasemcloud5745]

@@aheroforfun6401 sang guard and Dante have felt very strong in all the games I’ve played so far. DC meanwhile feel quite weak in comparison. Just don’t have the confidence they are going to slaughter much in combat now

[@ba_commander]

10 dc with astorath feels ok.

[@Chasemcloud5745]

@@ba_commander when he doesn’t fail 5 inch charges 🤣 has happened to me 3 games in a row now

[@kevingarnett1255]

230 for 10 DC, but 180 for 6 bladeguard with a built in invuln, or 240 for 6 aggressors, I feel like either of those squads just have better value. The downsides is the movement, it just changes how you play I think

[@ba_commander]

I think you can field 10, that’s what I’ve been doing so far in LAG.

[@521wallace]

My new list runs all 3 of those. Bladeguard+Judiciar in an Impulsor, Aggresors+Capt in a Repulsor, DC+Astorath in DS.

[@rexvictorhardrada]

I vote for astorath, he and 10 man blob did 22 dev wounds to a stompa😂😂

[@ReedCarter-sd8jz]

For the algorithm, and for the angel!! 🩸